Deena Is Back: The Postpartum Truth No One Tells You

0:00The following podcast is a dear media production. Welcome to After Bedtime, where the house is finally quiet, but the real noise begins. The thoughts, the questions, the wondering if you're doing any of this right. We're Kristen and Dina, child behavior experts, moms and co-founders of Big Little Feelings. And we're not here to give you more pressure or perfect parenting energy. Nope. We're here to tell the truth, the unfiltered, beautiful, brutal truth about what it means to raise kids and re-raise ourselves in the process. Because parenting isn't just about sleep schedules and snack hacks. It's about healing.

0:37It's about breaking cycles. It's about becoming the kind of adult you want your kids to grow up to be. This is the place where we say the quiet parts out loud. And we're so glad that you're here. Besties, you're not going to believe it. You're not going to believe it. I'm sitting across from Dina. She has her coffee hat on. You know what I'm talking about. The black coffee hat. She has her sunglasses on. She's wearing a black sweatshirt that says box, box, box. I think that's Formula One. Dina, can you confirm or deny? Confirmed. She's wearing her black leggings. As we all know and love, Dina's back, baby.

1:14Dina. I'm back. You're back. Somehow I'm here. I'm here sitting across from you. It's really nice. I can't wait. I just slammed my head against a concrete wall. Yeah. Are you okay? we're in the yes thank you for asking we're in the dear media studios it's like a legit studio yeah and i just slammed my head against them just like a little kid like my kids do that all the time when they get in bed and you know they accidentally like hit their head on the wall or their bed frame you're like whoa are you okay how did that happen to you like why did you even do that like how could you why did your body what happened to you do that you know like that's a wall yeah yeah that's what happened to me i'm a toddler yeah that makes sense hi hello oh my god you're in la i know this feels good to be with you it feels really really good yesterday we were at a hotel our favorite hotel and that felt really good except for the travel day i didn't mind it that's amazing it felt like a vacation honestly i like got so much done on the airplane so much so wait I'm just going to rewind for a minute.

2:21It's like two very conflicting things to a person, which is it felt so relaxing. It felt like a vacation. I got so much done on the airplane. Because you know why? Yeah. I was in a flow state. I was just locked in. That's nice. Time didn't even exist. It just flew by. I was like in my own world, in my mind, just like, oh, yes. oh bing bing boom wow i love that for you yeah also you're not like a big relaxer if i may no it's not for me yeah like when we go on any kind of a trip together which is almost every month if we are going to go quote unquote relax by the pool you know what i'm doing what are you doing i'm picking out furniture to redo my entire house and that entire time forcing actively forcing yourself not to work or do something else like even more productive so it has to be like sneaky productive sneaky productive that's me relaxing yeah i'm dreaming spreadsheets oh yeah it feels inspirational i'm like oh wow like what if my house felt this way so i'll put all these little rooms together with photos like actual photos of all the furniture together and then it just drops and i never finish it oh i actually never knew that part yeah sometimes i finish it but most often I don't really sometimes have you done the cheetah wallpaper yet exactly I was actually curious because sometimes you have remember that besties do you remember on if you followed along she built that like wooden wall you built a wooden wall by yourself I did you know yeah no that actually turned out great so I did do the whole office in one day where I just obsessed about it yeah and that's why I was all I could think about and did it curious about the cheetah wallpaper because it gave the same urgency the vibe well what happened was i asked everyone on our instagram if i could install the wallpaper myself like have you done that and everyone was like holy shit do not do that like i lost my marriage over that please do not do that and i was like oh okay heard i'll pause on that one i think you could do it true i think you're somebody who can do it i yes i was nine months pregnant right then so maybe i stopped because of that probably too.

4:35Yeah. I think now's the time. Great choice. I think now's the time. That is a good. That's a healthy choice. I'm proud of you. Thank you. I'm proud of you. Thank you. What else? I went to Barry's this morning. I know. It was incredible. I wanted to be there with you, but I just need to relax, aka do work and do the cafe by myself.

4:54Literally. Literally though. Literally. No, that wasn't a joke. I like how you call it. We're still circling on this. We call it relax because I actually saw you on the way out and then I did, but I didn't bother you because you were like really head down. Yep. Sunglasses on. Yep. In a zone. Yes. And you was just like, like anybody else would think you look like slightly angry, but I know you're just like in a, in a, in a zone. I was being happy. Furious. Yeah. I felt good. That's what I look like. And that was relaxing. Yeah. So I didn't want to, I didn't want to bother your relaxation. So I also, I was late, obviously 10 minutes late for berries.

5:27So I just ran out. Yeah. Went to berries. I just like danced a little bit. vibed a little bit if anybody doesn't know berries is obviously just a workout place this is not sponsored and the reason i like it is that there are no lights the music is blaring especially in west hollywood i mean we are lady gaga we are ariana grande we are doing like hillary duff 2010 this is what dreams are made of but like with a beat behind it and i just get lost in the beat it's like i'm i'm back in 2010 you know the endorphins are flowing i feel incredible and then I emerged and I feel amazing. Someone get this girl a fedora.

6:04Oh my God. How dare you? Do you remember that fedora? I'll never forget. A visual in my head now. Yeah. Of us with like a bottle of vodka or something. But what I heard is you went to a club this morning. Yeah. Mom style. Yes. Yeah. Yes. It was the best hour of my life. I bet. It was the best hour of my life. I'm so happy for you. Thank you. I'm happy for you. You had fun, too. Yeah. In our own ways. In our own ways. And that's why we're best friends. Exactly. And we allow each other. We're like, I'm absolutely not working at 6 a.m. to relax. That is not what I'm doing, friend. You know? Yeah.

6:43It's like, I support you. You, too. I support you. Let's talk about your maternity leave, the newborn stage, All of it. Yes. The one that isn't a vacation. Correct. Correct. It was so relaxing, wasn't it? No. Okay. That one wasn't. All right. Let's talk about it. Okay. Let's talk about something that doesn't get enough airtime. How hard feeding a baby can actually be. With my first baby, I thought I had a plan. Okay. But then life happened. My baby couldn't latch. He had major lip and tongue ties that went completely missed. And basically, when my mental health started completely falling apart, I needed a formula that I could trust.

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9:58That's Nutrafol.com spelled N-U-T-R-A-F-O-L, promo code FEELINGS. Okay, let me paint the picture. I bought cozy sweaters for work meetings, crop tops for my favorite workout class, and yes, a silky little dress for date night, all from one place. Quince. You know how you usually have like your fancy clothes store, your comfort but cute store, your okay, I guess this will do basic store? Quince said, we're doing all of it and we're doing it really well. Their Mongolian cashmere sweaters, they feel like designer, but without the markup. Their 100 % silk skirts and tops, chef's kiss. And don't even get me started on their Italian wool coats.

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12:17is each time we have a baby it's true you know what i mean yeah and it's just it's so much packed into three months so much so let's start with we're gonna do a whole episode on the birth because that deserves its own episode lightly gave birth at home in a bathtub kids were there amazing that's what you wanted we'll do a whole episode on that so now talk to me about the very early stage talk to me about after the birth I feel like it's been the same almost all three times but on this one specifically those first call it like one to four weeks for me are just like a lot of happiness and a ton of relief I think that's what I felt right after the birth honestly was just like, ah, okay, we made it.

13:12He made it like we're here. We're safe. We're okay. And so I don't know. You're like pumped up with adrenaline. You know, the hormones are rushing. You're just up all night, like taking care of the baby. He's on you. He's like, okay. So I don't know. I feel like those first four weeks with that rush are always really kind of happy for me. and that's how it felt this time too and then it all kind of crashes for me around week five is what happened where I was like holy shit this is a marathon I just okay now I'm exhausted I'm like so tired in my bones at this point I also realized when I had that like really intense kind of relief feeling you know I've never really had a baby shower yeah and we always kind of wondered why because you're so nice you're my best friend you're every single time you're like let me throw you a baby shower I will set it up for you and I was like okay like and then time would run out right and it really hit me when I was about four or five weeks postpartum I was like oh man I think the reason I've never actually let myself have a baby shower is I did have a lot of anxiety about like is everything going to be okay and and I think yeah like the relief of it just hits really hard for me honestly that's so interesting so you never allowed yourself to celebrate did you allow yourself to feel attached during the pregnancy or like like we're all three different this third one is the most attached and connected I've felt to any of them.

14:51But the other two in particular, very, very hard, which I think I had a little bit of shame about where it's like, oh man, you know, if I was like a good mommy or a natural mommy, like whatever, I would feel so connected to this baby. But I think the fear in a lot of ways just kind of created a disconnect. connect and so yes like the sheer relief of having a baby in my arms just hit really hard wow that's so that's such an interesting take and I'm sure a lot of people listening relate I I relate to the anxiety especially with the third one and the second one like a fear you know fear of losing the baby I think mine is like yes a bit of relief when they get there but I guess as I progress through the pregnancy, I naturally, for better or worse, feel some of that relief.

15:45So I don't really feel that as hard postpartum. And so it's so interesting that that's like, that's the moment that you're like, okay, all right. Like we're safe now. We did it. Yeah. Like now I can relax. Oh, wow. Yeah. That's a lot. So the first few weeks I felt great. I was like, oh man, I'm so proud we did it. Like life is good. And I would say in those first weeks to the hardest part. And my friend actually, who has three, like a different friend warned me about this. She was like, listen, the first two kids are going to be the hardest part. The baby, the third baby, like you got this. And then it's hard to juggle all the kids.

16:24And I think that's what I really felt in those first weeks too, was just so many kids needing you at the exact same time while you got the baby on you and learning how to adjust to that and and be there for everybody was like a very very hard humbling task at the beginning yeah and didn't didn't he have a hard time being put down ever like he had oh yeah well he had and that's the other thing i mean this was one of i would say the lowest points of the newborn stage for me was he just nonstop was crying. And that's that's so hard because you go to doctors and I feel like you have to kind of jump through these hoops, at least at first, like, all right, he's colicky.

17:10And you're like, I don't think it stops there. And you kind of have to keep advocating and pushing to get what you need. And I'm sitting there like obsessively now doing my own research because I'm like we can't live this way we cannot live just non-stop crying and I did that with my first by the way you did I listened to every doctor who's just like sorry you have a colicky baby like they just got to grow out of it and I regret that so much that I just listened and I did not push harder for him I actually have a lot of guilt that's like hit me about that because I think he could have had a better quality life at the beginning so yes but we had to navigate the nonstop crying like he wouldn't even open his eyes he was crying so hard he would be crying 90 percent of the time with his eyes closed and I was like this little guy is in so much pain something is wrong so from doing my own research I was like listen guys it is either a dairy sensitivity or allergy or this guy has crazy reflux and like we need to keep pushing until we figure out what it was and ultimately got him on a reflux medication.

18:16And I kid you not, within 48 hours, he was a different baby, a completely different baby. Crazy. Yeah. Crazy. Because I remember it's silent reflux, right? Yes. And so for the besties. He wasn't spitting up. Okay. Besties that don't know, what is silent reflux? Right. It's not the classic signs like he wasn't spitting up. He didn't necessarily, he wasn't arching his back like one of the classic signs. he just was was uncomfortable it was silent it was really subtle and probably really easy to miss but thank goodness I you know caught on to it and dug deeper thank god and what week was that around was that like that was week five that was week five it's interesting because that was my experience with the third baby where the first five six weeks of his life he would scream non-stop like overnight had to be held upright overnight, like just nonstop.

19:09Ours was the dairy allergy. And then so much trial, tribulation, pumping, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah formula. By week five or six, we had finally figured it out. And that was the exact moment that my hormones also came crashing down because, by the way, weren't you five or six when you stopped breastfeeding too? No. Well, I was never breastfeeding. I was just exclusively pumping, which is hell. But was it five or six weeks when it came? No, I went longer. But it was you're right that it was five or six weeks when I started to cut out dairy. And while I was pumping and that was truly horrible, honestly, started to trigger my eating disorder stuff where I was trying to kind of replace all the foods I eat with non-dairy stuff.

19:53And it just it just like does not work for me. And so I started to just not eat and then quickly was like, whoa, OK, this is not working. This is not working for us. Yeah. Yeah. And because it made it easier for you to not eat. Is that what you mean by triggering the eating disorder or like how specifically was it triggering it back? I think this actually has a little twist of autism stuff in it, which I'm diagnosed with autism in case you don't know. Yeah. Foods can be really tricky. Like I eat the exact same stuff pretty much every day except for dinner. I change that up, but I do have like a weekly menu that I will rotate through and trying to substitute in all my things and change up all the stuff I eat every day.

20:35I literally hit a point where I just kind of was like, I'd just rather not eat. Like it's a pass for me, dog, you know, and that's, that's what wasn't working for me too. And I, I don't think I'm a person who should be thinking 24 seven about what's in this food. Should I be eating it? Should I not like that? That is not healthy for me, given my history. That can go to a slippery slope. Not allowed to have this type of food. And this is a bad food and like all of those things. Yes. And constantly talking about food, thinking about food. And you have to, by the way, in order to cut dairy and soy.

21:09It's in everything. It's in literally like it's in bread. It's in when you go to a restaurant. It's like the things that you would not even expect it to be in. It's in. So it's not as either you literally. I remember it was like it's consuming. And it didn't trigger anything in me. it was just literally I couldn't spend a minute not thinking about it because you have to be like, OK, well, what am I going to have for lunch? No, I can't do that. I have to do this. Not this rule, that rule, you know. So exactly. It's just the nature of the game. Thinking about it, planning, prepping, like scared to eat something.

21:39And that's a big one is being like terrified to eat something because if it gets in your breast milk and your baby is going to cry hysterically. So like you're really afraid of like a lot of foods. Yes, Yes, I could definitely see that. It started to go to a slippery place and I caught it right away. I was like, woo, all the red flags are here happening right now. Let's stop before this gets worse. I'm so proud of you. Me too. That's amazing. OK, so it wasn't dairy. So that's good. And then reflux medication, different baby. Amazing. So we had the exact same. Well, not the exact same, but very similar where first five, six weeks, we are frantically trying to figure out what is wrong with this baby that we, you know, want to help and is clearly in so much pain but we don't know what's wrong we figure it out and we're actually feeling like pretty good glowy the hormones are happening we're like flooded with all that oxytocin right yeah all the oxytocin happening and then right when we figure it out the hormone crash happens and i remember actively because it's a third baby so i knew when the hormone crashed i was like okay i don't necessarily need to panic like this is normal but i remember being like this is such bullshit because I still didn't get to bask.

22:53And I know it's hard for everybody. I mean, any newborn stage is hard, but to spend those first five weeks frantically searching for an answer. And then the second you figure it out, you're just like, everything drops off a cliff for you hormonally and mentally. I was like, this is kind of bullshit. Yeah, this is kind of bullshit. It is. Do you feel the same way? That's valid. It's bullshit. I literally remember sitting in the moment being like, this is bullshit. Or am I crying? I'm like, this is unfair. This is happening to me.

23:28Hey, guys, I'm Whitney Port, and this is With Wit. A lot of you may know me from reality TV, and the reality is a lot's happened since the hills. With Wit is dedicated to having real, raw, and occasionally ridiculous conversations with the people who have had a profound impact on me. Because on With Wit, very little is off limits. Subscribe so you don't miss any of the amazing conversations to come. New episodes of With Wit are available every Tuesday on all platforms.

24:04so i'm really curious about your mental health if you're willing to kind of share we're always pretty open and transparent about postpartum anxiety postpartum depression you've even shared that you had postpartum rage which was really i thought amazing of you to share because not a lot of moms have heard about it not a lot of moms would share about it because of the shame around it. So what was this time around? Were there any snippets of any postpartum, you know, mental health struggles? Yeah, I would say this is the first time that I didn't have postpartum anxiety. The other two times I 100 percent did.

24:43In fact, if I'm being really honest, I barely remember my other two postpartums. I that makes me really sad, too. I feel like I kind of missed out because I just wasn't fully there. I had just a lot of worry and fear and it kind of ate at me. But this time I don't have postpartum anxiety, which is nice. Definitely still have intrusive thoughts, which I feel like is pretty common. You know, the one where you're walking by the stairs and you're like, I'm going to toss this baby over the banister. Absolutely. You're like, I don't know. The baby's head in, you know, I'm just like, why is that? Why is this coming into my brain right you're like when the house lights on fire tonight how do i get all three of them who do i go to first and what's the escape plan like why i have that one really why is the fire the fire one for me oh that is continue i do that every day continue it comes from a place of love because we care so much about our kids specifically fire i don't know about that one okay that i can't answer back offline to that one that i don't think there's research on okay like a past life thing I mean like we're not going I need to go to like a medium or something not so much a scientist for that one exactly okay but no I haven't had rage which with my first one I did when I got really stressed oh my god I remember this one day my husband and I had not figured out how both were gonna work and take care of a kid I think we just thought like oh we love each other so much.

26:11Like, we'll just figure it out. It'll naturally fall into place. And it did not. And what ended up happening was I took on pretty much everything while working and I had a deadline, which is one of my big triggers. It's still one of my big triggers is when I have a work deadline, something that's due. And my baby started crying and I literally got so overwhelmed I truly felt that urge of like I'm gonna shake this baby like this all just needs to fucking stop right now luckily just put him down in his crib and walked away like he'll be okay crying in his crib for a second this is a better move than anything like I gotta go calm down but I haven't had rage what I did have though was I was really irritable like especially with the two older ones in the beginning and I almost feel like embarrassed about admitting this like as a therapist as if I should you know like not be struggling with this but this is part of being human at the exact same time so it was just a lot going on at once and you're like physically trying to recover and everyone needs you I was pretty irritable for a period of time and this is not my norm to be like guys hey shoes on let's go you know it was kind of that vibe where it's like I I just need you to listen to me.

27:29OK, you just need to fucking listen. The reason I yelled at you, I'm sorry I yelled. And the reason I yelled is because you didn't fucking listen to me. Get your fucking shoes on. I've been there. Yeah, it doesn't feel good. I don't love living that way. But there was definitely more of that at the beginning. And honestly, I don't think I could have done better. I just couldn't. I was giving it my best. And that's all I had. Good for you. Good for you. I don't know that I would have said that to myself. So that's pretty amazing that you're saying that to yourself and you don't need me to say that to you.

28:02Like, that's really nice. That's part of healing. It wasn't always this way. Usually I would just spiral in shame about it. But really, you know, it's it's pretty understandable. And honestly, it's a blip in the relationship with my kids. It's going to be OK. You know. Well, I'm so happy you shared about postpartum rage again. I think it's just so not talked about. but Dean and I both struggled with those in you know certain newborn stages that we had and it is so incredibly common I know that if you are listening and you are struggling or you have struggled it might feel really shameful it might feel like something was wrong with you you might feel a lot of guilt that you missed or are missing the newborn stage I know Dean and I both felt that way the truth is is postpartum anxiety and postpartum depression affects 10 to 20 percent of new mothers globally, with some studies showing rising rates nearly 20%.

28:56And while postpartum depression affects roughly one in five women, postpartum anxiety also significantly impacts both parents with estimates suggesting up to one in five women and one in 10 men. And I don't know that that's talked a whole lot about is the male perspective of struggling with postpartum depression, postpartum anxiety. It's supposed to be such a beautiful, fuzzy, warm time. And it really is. I think even those of us who did struggle still look back at it that way. But if it feels really hard for you, if you really are struggling, you're not alone. One in five. One in five. So I'm just so glad that you're talking about the postpartum rage that you've struggled with before and that we have talked through this before because like that's the reality it's not always just a newborn bubble no it's not and I'm glad you bring up the male part of it too the husband part Mike was definitely in that category the first go around he and I think we only realized that in hindsight once we were better we like oh whoa like you were so depressed in that transition period like you got rocked too because in men and also women it can show up really differently and that's why even when I had postpartum anxiety I couldn't put my finger on it because it wasn't necessarily what I thought postpartum depression or anxiety would look like and that's the same with Mike it was like well he's kind of an asshole in the most loving way you're just really intense great you're just doing so great and i love you but like at that time he was kind of an asshole he never supported you he was checked out he was gone bye but that is actually a symptom of his mental health which kind of blows your mind you know everybody's going to react in such a different way to struggling with their own mental health and it wasn't that he was an asshole and that he was checked out.

31:00He was struggling. Yeah. He was really struggling. And like in the true clinical sense of depressed. Yeah. But that's all clear in hindsight. And speaking of marriage stuff, please, you know that I went into this third one like, hey, if the same bad stuff happens in this marriage, this third go around, like I don't think I can stick around. So I'm happy to report it has been much better. Yeah. Like all of our therapy and our work on sharing the load actually really came to life. It did. It did take some fine tuning. There were definitely moments where, you know, we had slipped back into other patterns and I'd be like, yo, dude, like you gotta, you gotta come back in and support me.

31:41So we had to have definitely some talks about that. And I have to admit just my, my own stuff. Like when that happens I get so triggered and very quickly go to a place of like that's it it's all bad like we gotta end it you know so that's kind of my work is like trying to pause and zoom out and see the whole picture without panicking when I'm triggered you and me both girl yeah you and me both yeah you know what I mean it's a lot of people to be okay all right yeah you're right you're right that's childhood childhood wound stuff oh such bullshit it's hard something can change so much but then And there's just a little flicker of it.

32:21And you're just right back in your place. You're like, that's it. That's all of life is that. It's going to be this way forever. Yeah. Nothing can change. You haven't changed. Clearly, this is all you. And I'm out. Exactly. OK, so I'm thrilled to hear this update. I was thrilled to hear this update every day in the live flesh as your bestie. I'm really happy that you also shared that it wasn't picture perfect and that you had to have conversations, by the way, because it's like this is intentional. real work. And it's two steps forward, one step back, like you said. And it doesn't mean. And then in that moment where we take one step back, we get very triggered.

32:56I might punch you in the face while I take a step back. And then I'll regroup and we can talk. So besties, I'm going to tell you a story that I think I've told on the pod before, which is my favorite story about Dina is, well, I have a lot and some of them involve tequila in Mexico, but I'll save those for another episode. My favorite story is after the birth of my first child, she came and visited me in Denver with Mike. And I don't you guys were not married yet. You were dating. We were dating. Yes, you were dating. Mike is a finance guy. He's on back to back conference calls. I live in this teeny tiny old house in Colorado in the middle of nowhere.