Divorce Doesn't Ruin Kids, Conflict Does

0:00The following podcast is a Dear Media Production. Welcome back to After Bedtime. I am very excited for today's episode because it is really, really personal to me. We are having a guest expert on who specializes in co-parenting after separation and divorce, something that I was right on the verge of and really found myself in the early stages of parenting, sitting with my husband and asking ourselves, Should we separate? Is that best for our family? And contemplating all the change that comes with it. So whether you are thinking about separating, you are in the middle of it, or you know somebody going through it, this episode is going to be incredibly helpful.

0:48We're going beyond just the high level of co-parenting. We are getting into the weeds of what it really means when you're holding it together for your kids. You're processing your own change as you try to help them through the change. You're in a whole new world of logistics. And you're navigating this brand new version of your family that you've never been through before. Well, good news. Today we're joined by Gabriela Pomare, a family lawyer and co-parenting expert who lives in this space where law, emotion, and real life just collide together. She's the founder of The Collaborative Co-Parent and the author of the book, The Collaborative Co-Parent.

1:29But what makes Gabriela special isn't just her legal expertise. That helps a lot, but she understands that co-parenting isn't about winning. It's not about being perfect or keeping it together at all costs. It's about emotional leadership and communication when it's hard and protecting kids from adult conflict. Yes, even when you're hurting. So Gabriela has a way of talking about separation that feels really honest and grounding and somehow lighter, partly because she herself has navigated this on top of helping families through it every single day in her career. So if this is something that you are navigating, this episode will help you feel grounded, confident, and so much lighter walking out of it.

2:18So let's jump into it. Welcome to After Bedtime, where the house is finally quiet, but the real noise begins. The thoughts, the questions, the wondering if you're doing any of this right. We're Kristen and Dina, child behavior experts, moms and co-founders of Big Little Feelings. And we're not here to give you more pressure or perfect parenting energy. Nope. We're here to tell the truth, the unfiltered, beautiful, brutal truth about what it means to raise kids and re-raise ourselves in the process. Because parenting isn't just about sleep schedules and snack hacks. It's about healing. It's about breaking cycles.

2:56It's about becoming the kind of adult you want your kids to grow up to be. This is the place where we say the quiet parts out loud. And we're so glad that you're here. Gabriella, welcome to After Bedtime. We are super, super excited to have you today. Thank you. I am so excited to be here. I've been looking forward to this chat for so long. Yeah, me too. I'm really, really glad we're chatting today because this topic is so important. I know when you're going through a separation or a divorce, you are hurting. Like the parents are going through the hardest times of their life potentially while also showing up for their kids and helping them navigate change and feel safe and secure and loved.

3:42all the things we talk about here at Big Little Feelings. And it just couldn't be harder in so many ways. I know that I personally was really grappling with this when I had my second baby. My husband and I had a very rough transition into parenthood. And we really found ourselves sitting there and saying to each other, like, is this the best for our family? Is staying together the right thing for you, for me, for our kids, and really starting to think about, okay, if we did separate and make this huge life change, what would it be like? What comes with it? How would we do it? And our story ended a little different where we ended up doing a ton of work.

4:27And I think that moment for him was the moment he kind of bought into therapy and was like, let me give this one last shot, it really did. I could feel in my heart that it's so heavy in so many ways. And while change is hard for kids, at the same time, we know that living in an unhealthy, toxic home environment is not good for them. So I'm really excited to hear everything. I know we're going to go over insights and tools that parents can use, but to kick us off, Tell us a little bit about your background and how you got here. Yeah, absolutely. And I think you really hit the nail on the head. And that is my story.

5:11I mean, I was pretty young. I was 30 when I separated and now divorced from my ex-husband and my son was one. So we were raising this little baby. I was going through a lot at home. My mom had had a really big stroke. She lost her memory. She was in hospital for a year. So I felt like at that time I was struggling because I was trying to raise this new little baby. I'm a new mom. I have no idea what to do. And I didn't have my mum helping me. And I think my ex-husband struggled with that a bit too. He had a lot going on. It was COVID too, the first one. So there was so many things happening in our lives.

5:40And we had that conversation a lot. And it got to a point, I think, four or five months into that struggle where we said, are we going to keep doing this? We'd been living separately for a little bit. And we said, perhaps the best thing just is to make this more permanent. And it broke my heart. It really did. Because I do this for work. I'm a family lawyer. So I'm working with separated and divorcing families every day. And I see the impact that that can have on kids. And as you said, sometimes that can be really negative, but sometimes it can also be positive if it's for the right reasons. And if parents, I think, can grow up, and I hate to say it, but we do.

6:16We need to be the adults. We need to be the mature ones. And although our hearts are breaking and we are going through so many emotions, it's a massive roller coaster. But we need to put that aside for our kids when we are parenting. So I made that decision because I said, I don't want him growing up in a household. And he was one where we are constantly in conflict. We were fighting, we were arguing. And, you know, so much social science tells us children suffer when they're in households with conflict. And that then goes into their future and how they parent, you know, when they get married, how they go into relationships and cope with conflict and adult emotions and then how they parent.

6:54So that really was the basis for my decision, right or wrong. And look, five years later, it almost has been. And I still think it's the best one. But we are doing so much work every day to improve our co-parenting relationship because it might be really good one day and then something will happen. So things will change again and we are back doing the hard work. Yeah, 100 percent. That makes so much sense. And so you are a lawyer who actually works in this exact field. I've been doing that for almost, I think, 10, 11 years now. So I am doing divorce and separation every day. And most of it is high conflict.

7:32So I'm juggling these two hats of lawyer advice and, hey, I'm a mom, what would I do for my kid? And now I have a second kid. I live in a now blended family. I've repartnered and we've got a one-year-old girl. So there are a lot of things we're navigating in this house. Yeah, yeah, you really are. And I think you're exactly right where it's so easy for it to become high conflict because I think by the time you've made this choice to make this big change, to separate, to get divorced, things have built up usually by that point so much. There's resentment, there's anger, you're going through your own sadness, the grief of it.

8:08I mean, there is so much that comes with it. Yeah. It is life-changing. And the way I often talk about it is it doesn't stop. And you start, to miss your life. And I think you start to second guess yourself, right? Because you say, when you wake up and where is this person next to me? I imagine this incredible life. We'd be living together, the Christmases, the holidays, the big family, and then you're on your own and you're not having that, at least not at that point. So I think you're really struggling with this new life, finding yourself again, your purpose, your journey, what it is you're supposed to do in this thing we call life, but you also have to parent and show up.

8:46So how do you juggle your own emotions and what's happening for you with parenting. And I think that's where this real struggle comes in, this identity crisis and this almost inability to co-parent well, because there's this almost imbalance of needing to look after yourself, but also look after your child or children. Yeah, absolutely. And can you share more too about the identity crisis part? Yeah, I think that that is so crucial because I genuinely believe that you can't co-parent or even really parent well until you found yourself again. Or really, I think the better word to use is healed because there really is a whole healing process post-separation.

9:26You are finding yourself again. You are saying, okay, I'm no longer in this family dynamic. I still have a family. It may look very differently. But what I try to tell parents is take back that control. You have the power to recreate what your family looks like. And I hate when people talk about the broken family. You know, you're divorced now, so your kid comes from a broken family. No, no, we have the power to say, this is what our family now looks like. And we can put aside that conflict and we can find ourselves again. And as a parent, I know I went through a bit of a journey of what makes me happy.

9:58I'm no longer confined to, don't get me wrong, of course, every decision I make has my son and now my daughter at the forefront of my mind. But I also want to do what makes me happy and what I know I'll get fulfillment from. So it took me, I'd say, a good 12 months to, I don't mean heal, you never fully heal, but to go through that journey of, okay, I'm going to grieve this family and this relationship that I had and that's broken down. I need to do the work on myself through a bit of therapy, through talking with friends. And I think through really sitting back and I think journaling was really good for me and saying, okay, what do I want now?

10:31What do I want out of life? What do I want for my son? What kind of life do I want to give him? And how do I do those things on my own? So it's really setting yourself up for that and then going through that healing. And once I think you have that plan in place, you can step back and say, I could be a better co-parent now. I can, you know, put that betrayal, if that's what you went through, all the conflict or the grief, the sadness. I can, how do you say it? I can't even say it. Put it to one part of your mind, right? And say, put that aside and then say, okay, let's start making decisions together for the benefit of our children.

11:06Yeah. So really letting yourself process and feel all the feelings that come with it, which really is the hardest part sometimes when you're in this deep emotional place. It just can feel so chaotic. But really what we know is when you let yourself feel it fully, that's the fastest way through it. And it's so hard. It really is. I guess we can't be scared to feel because I think what a lot of parents do and a lot of moms do is we try and take responsibility for everything. We are the responsible ones. We've got so many different burdens and all these different hats we're wearing. So some people tend to just forget about their own emotions, don't process what's going on, and we just keep going.

11:46We've got to tell the school, we've got to organize what's happening with the extracurriculars, with our parenting arrangements, with family and friends. No, slow it down. There is no sort of perfect parent. There is no perfect co-parent. We just need to slow down and say, what's going to work for us now and rushing around and trying to, you know, rebuild or fake this life that we once had and pretend everything is perfect isn't going to work either because it'll come crashing down one day. I think if you block out what's happening and block out that emotion in six or 12 months, it'll hit you.

12:20And then what do you do? Because you still have these little people that you're caring for or big ones if they're teenagers. And it's still that imbalance of what do I do? So process, feel that emotion. You need to. My only message really is do it, but don't involve your children in it. And I think that is something that is so important because we want to grieve and heal and feel, but we don't necessarily want our children being involved in that healing process because I think that's when they get most negatively impacted. I work with too many families and see too many kids who grow up really, they say often that their parents' divorce ruined them and that's not because their parents got divorced you should not not separate if you're in a high conflict situation or where that's best for you because you're worried about ruining your children's future what ultimately ruins children is that ongoing post-separation post-divorce conflict right bringing them into using them as the messengers letting them know how hurt you are that mom or dad had an affair anything like that so that is the worst part for kids not the divorce itself.

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16:51And as we shift to the kids. I'm curious, since you see this, you know, day in, day out, and I've helped many families through this process as well. What would you, yeah, what would you say is kind of your number one advice when it comes to helping kids through this process? Yeah, I think it's the reassurance. And that is the biggest thing for children, reassurance and stability, because they're so scared. They don't know what's going on. They don't truly understand what a divorce or separation is to them, their family is breaking down. All of a sudden, they are so different to so many kids at school, to their friends, particularly if you live in a community where perhaps it's not something that's that common.

17:33So I think that is the hardest part for children, being different and not knowing. So the best thing you can do as a parent is show up, reassure them that both parents love them, irrespective of what one of you may have done wrong to each other. We love you. We support you. We will work together for you and not too much is changing. You know, you will have different bedrooms and different homes. You know, things will change in terms of how your life looks, but you should still feel safe and secure because your parents will be there. And I know it's hard for parents and I've been there, I've done it, I get it.

18:04You may not want to speak to your ex or your co-parent, but I think it's really important for your children to know anytime you want to speak to your other parent, that's okay. Because I think one of the worst things for a kid is knowing I'm blocked from speaking to my other parent. You know, mum hates dad so much. It's so difficult for her that I can't pick up the phone and FaceTime dad because I miss him or vice versa. And it may be difficult. And like there are many days I don't necessarily want to get on the phone and have to look at my ex or have that conversation. But I do have to be the bigger person and say, you know, I will, because he's too young to work out how to do it himself, I will jump on the iPad or the phone, set up the FaceTime and call your dad, tell him how school was because that's so exciting.

18:45And like, for example, yesterday, it was my son's first day of primary school for us so what do you call elementary school kindergarten so it was a really exciting thing for him and we showed up together because that's the right thing to do he was so excited and you know he ran up to the teacher and said this is my mommy and daddy together today such a big thing for him so I wanted to really you know grasp that moment and normalize that for him because I saw how excited that made him and I didn't want him to think my mom and dad can't be here together I'm going to be blocked from that and be different to the other kids starting school today.

19:18So those sorts of decisions and things are so important for parents to keep in mind. Yeah, absolutely. And there's a lot of logistics that you're navigating, that the kids are now navigating. Maybe they're going to now two different homes throughout the week. So it is a big change. And I like what you're saying because it all comes down to helping them feel secure and loved while things are changing, giving them this very grounded foundation of you are safe. I have a plan for us. I'm going to help you through that. And really being there for them, right? Like explaining what's going on in child-friendly language that's appropriate for their age.

20:03And then really opening the door for any questions that they have and letting them be honest about what they feel or what they're curious about. Yeah, spot on. And that's it. Keep asking those questions. Keep having those conversations. Don't have it just once. Keep checking in. In three months and six months, life keeps changing. Children navigate, as you know, their own problems and their own issues constantly. Their little minds don't process like we do as adults. So they're constantly worrying and wondering, are things okay now? Are mom and dad getting back together now? You know, is someone seeing someone new?

20:38Do I feel safe in my home? So I think it's important to consistently have a conversation with them to say, how are you feeling? How are you coping? And allow them to really process and speak out to you. And as difficult as that can be for a parent, listen to, I miss my dad or I miss my mom, or I need more time with my mom or my dad. And that might mean shifting the way you do things. And not every set of parenting arrangements is perfect. For some, an equal time arrangement works well. For others, it doesn't. And I get it because I'm a lawyer, but I think lawyers can often interfere and try and middle with how those parenting arrangements should be.

21:15And as a lawyer, with my lawyer hat on, I can certainly say the way judges and courts do things, this is what it's going to look like for you. But you've also got the power as parents to negotiate and mediate and decide on your own set of parenting arrangements that really focus on your particular family. Only you know your kids, lawyers and judges don't. So if you think your child will benefit from changing things every few months until you find your normal and your stability, that's all right too, because you're the one checking in with your child and making sure they're coping. And I guess separate from that, allow them to get help too.

21:51So many parents shy away from this idea of therapy and allowing their children to heal with a third person because there's a bit of a stigma about my child's in therapy that's going to cause bigger issues down the track. It's not. Kids need help just as much as we do. So put them in that environment. Allow them to speak to that neutral third person because it can be hard talking to mum and dad. They don't want to hurt either of your feelings. They don't want to be caught in the middle of that conflict, but they still need that help. And that's where I think a good therapist, psychologist, counsellor comes in.

22:26Could not agree more because what we know about trauma and hard experiences that we go through, it's all about how we're making sense of the experience. Two people can go through the same hard experience and based on how they're making sense of it will determine the outcome for those two different people. So therapy can be such a game changer in this way. And that brings me to another point, which is little kids often will come up with their own narrative of why things happen if we're not opening the door for communication and helping them through it. So in the case of separation and divorce, I've worked with a lot of little kids who end up feeling like it's their fault, like they're part of what caused this.

23:15And when we can clarify and kind of rewrite that story with them proactively, it makes such a difference. So I don't know if you've seen that or if there are any other things that you'd kind of recommend parents proactively do or avoid in this situation. I think there's a really fine balance because I see exactly what you're talking about and the opposite. I think we can either talk too much or not talk enough or at all. And you're spot on in that when we don't talk and we don't open up and we break down, we block communication and we keep moving and we try and fix all the pieces. I often talk about putting a band-aid over it, right?

23:54I'll forget about the problem, we'll keep moving forward, I'll buy the nice house, I'll get them the new doona for their bed and the toys, but not actually go through what's happening. And a child starts to think, was it my fault? Was I too naughty? Was it me acting out, having problems at school that broke down my parents' relationship? Could I have changed things so that they stayed together? And that is a horrible thing for a child to grow up feeling. And that causes, as you know, so many issues for them into adulthood. So then I say we need to communicate to an extent. And it's the right communication, as you say, in a child-focused manner and in a way that they can sort of process and understand what's going on.

24:33We love you. The shape and the dynamic of our family is changing. But there are adult reasons why that's happening. It has nothing to do with you. It's mum and dad will be happier this way. We will communicate better this way. We will make better decisions for you this way. And we really are in some ways doing it for you so that you can have a happy, healthier childhood and then adulthood without going into dad had the affair or, you know, mom stopped loving me, whatever that might be. Because too many parents also fall into that trap and then that causes issues. You know, I've worked with a lot of clients who, and it's normal, you know, you've lost this person that you love, the person you go to bed with, that you chat about your day with that you open up to about your problems.

25:16So they then start doing that with their child. And that often happens with a little bit older children, you know, 10, 11, 12, women and daughters in particular. And I find they try and become besties. So you'll take your daughter out for a coffee or for dinner because they're the new person you hang out with. But then you start really burdening them with, you know, your dad's not paying child support, I'm hurting, or I've met this guy, whatever it might be. And then your child is carrying that guilt, that confusion, and they're being fed a certain narrative, which may not be the right narrative.

25:48It's how mom's feeling right or wrong, but it almost then blurs and changes the way a child feels about their other parent. So then they start going into and believing that narrative. Yeah, 100%. It's that. And then it's also avoiding the little digs at the other parent and remembering that your kid is half you and half that parent. So when we're digging at the other parent, in a way, we're also taking shots at them. Yeah, you are. Kids say that all the time when we see these videos and messages go around. And that is the biggest thing, because if you're saying, I really dislike your other parent and you're showing that this child's growing up thinking there's got to be something wrong with me.