The World Is Hard, That’s Why Home Shouldn’t Be (feat. Jon Fogel)

0:00The following podcast is a dear media production. besties i am so excited for you to hear this conversation with john today first of all john is one of my dear friends of whole parent and second of all he had so many mic drop moments like we are talking about parenting but we're talking about these really sort of big picture things where he's dropping so many things that just kind of give you the chills and make you think whoa oh holy shit okay I can do this or I should do that or whatever it is. I'm so excited for you to hear this conversation and I'm so proud of you for taking time out of your busy jam-packed schedule and I mean that even if that schedule is just wiping butts all day that is a jam-packed schedule and being here.

0:51Welcome to After Bedtime where the house is finally quiet but the real noise begins. The thoughts, the questions, the wondering if you're doing any of this right. We're Kristen and Dina, child behavior experts, moms, and co-founders of Big Little Feelings. And we're not here to give you more pressure or perfect parenting energy. Nope. We're here to tell the truth, the unfiltered, beautiful, brutal truth about what it means to raise kids and re-raise ourselves in the process. Because parenting isn't just about sleep schedules and snack hacks. It's about healing. It's about breaking cycles. It's about becoming the kind of adult you want your kids to grow up to be.

1:30This is the place where we say the quiet parts out loud, and we're so glad that you're here. Friends, I have one of my favorite people in the world sitting right here across from me in a, well, a Zoom screen, so kind of sitting next to me. My friend, John Fogel. He's probably the guy that's on your algorithm where he has a baby on his chest and he's giving you parenting advice. You absolutely know him. If you are not following him, follow him right now. He has built a following of over 2 million people by making neuroscience and psychological research practical and applicable. John is the author of a great book called Punishment-Free Parenting, the brain-based way to raise kids without raising your voice, and the host of the Whole Parent Podcast and founder of Whole Parent Academy, where he helps thousands of normal parents from all over the world, ditch power struggles, and build relationships that work.

2:21John, hi, welcome to After Bedtime. That was an incredible intro, Kristen. Oh, you wrote it. So thank you for sending that to me to read. It was a great, it was a great intro. The way that you just like rattled it off with your commentary in the middle though is great. You know, it's podcasting. It's podcasting. You podcast. You podcast every day, you just told me. Yeah, I try. So I, for December I released 25 days of emotional regulation games. So one a day on my social medias. And then I was like, wait, if I can make a video every day, couldn't I just make a 45 minute podcast every day? And so then I started doing that.

3:02So I've been doing it's not every day. I'll say that it's it's like four days a week. It's supposed to be five days a week. But you know, I'm a dad of four. So it's four days. It's four days a week. Can we shift into that real quick? So you're a dad of four. How old are your kids? One, almost four, five and a half-ish, and nine. Okay, that's a good spread. That's like a spread of mine plus one more at the bottom there. Yep. Did you always want to have four or big, like a big family? We always wanted to have a big family. We didn't know whether we were going to have a big family via the traditional baby-making way or if we were going to adopt from foster care.

3:45And we still may do that down the road, but we had our first and then we were like, okay, what's going to be next? And we became licensed foster parents. And then, yeah, the system is very broken and flawed. And really what we learned in the process was that if we ever wanted to have more biological kids, that it was best for the kids that would be in our care to do that first. So we're doing that first and we will see what life brings later. Why is it that you think or is it something you think or that's something that's widely known? No, that's that's bared out in the research. I mean, I don't want to I don't want to yuck anybody's yum like that.

4:23The people who are actively doing it, caring for kids, no matter how you're doing it, is is fantastic. And I and I love that. But what the research seems to indicate is that you want kids who are coming into the home to be the youngest. and so and most kids who are waiting to be in in the foster care system in illinois are not babies they're they're two or three or older and so if the youngest one of my kids is one then i i can't you know have a foster kid who's then three and still be going by that kind of evidence-based approach of hey this is what's best for the child to be the youngest and we just wanted to do like really what we learned in the foster care training was you're doing this and we always set out to do this but you are doing this for them you're not doing this for you like you're not getting anything out of it you're doing this for them and if it's for them then we should put them in the best possible scenario that we can wow i love the way you talk about everything first of all so i'm really excited for you to be here but even just then dropping a truth bomb.

5:28It's for them. It's not for you. Is that how you feel about parenting too? Or is it a little bit for you? Or what's your stance there? Well, I think that kids give us this amazing window into growth ourselves. Fred Rogers, who is my favorite parenting influencer of old, he was never on any social media, but he was kind of the original goat parenting influencer. And we could do an hour on how much I love Fred and all of the things that he did and all of the, he was, he really was, and I don't mean to put myself on a pedestal, but in many ways, what he did was take cutting edge parenting, psychological parenting research and apply it in the real world with kids in real time.

6:16Right. That's what he was about. That's what he did. And so with that being the case, I, that's kind of what I'm trying to do too. And so one of the things, one of the famous quotes, probably one of the most famous quotes is when he's on Oprah and Oprah asks him, what is the biggest mistake that parents make? And he basically says, it's not remembering their own childhood. Like that they don't remember their own childhood and they don't remember what it's like to be a child. And she goes into this like, well, but then they become parents and they say, I'm never going to do this. I'm never going to say the thing that my mom said to me.

6:53And then they catch themselves doing that. And instead of saying, well, you know, but they should just do better. Fred, in the most gracious way possible says, but when you have a child, it's a whole new opportunity to grow and discover who you are. And that's what I mean when I say, like it is for me by being for them. It is for me because I get a new picture of who I am. And there's nobody like kids to draw out your junk and expose it to the world for you to then have to deal with. I feel like people who don't have kids who are living their life and I think that that's beautiful for them and everybody gets to make that choice.

7:40You shouldn't have kids if it's not for them, obviously. But I do think that they miss out on an opportunity to grow. And I think that being a parent has helped me to grow in ways that I wouldn't be able to otherwise. I feel like those people maybe are not ready to grow in those ways. And they're making a good choice, though. I think all the time about parents, perhaps ones that I had. But a lot of parents that were not ready or should not have been parents and didn't really have a desire to be a parent. and I don't think they have the desire to grow in that way. And I think it's one of the best things people can do.

8:17And I think they're growing in other ways, right? But it's just like the best thing where they're just like, I would be doing it, first of all, this child a huge disservice. And also, it's just not for me. It's not for me. Right, right. And no one is ready to have kids. I was definitely not ready. I'm still not ready. I'm like, wait, I'm in charge of this ship? Every day when you wake up, right? It's a new adventure. No one is ready. But I think that there is a level of humility that comes with having kids that teaches you that you can do really hard things. And that's something that I'm also trying to pass on to my kids, right?

8:54Parenting is the hardest thing I've ever done. It's also the most rewarding. And so I'm trying to pass on to my kids that the hardest things that we do are the most rewarding. I agree. Speaking of which, what does your home look like or feel like on a daily basis with four kids? That's what I wanted to know because you're a parenting expert, you know. So-called expert. Quote unquote, sure. And we know all the right things to do. Like we've read the research, we're scouring it. And then, you know, we're doing our best. What is the overall vibe though? Because I do think people who take the research can take it and then their family feels very differently no matter, what I'm saying is, I don't think people who do quote unquote gentle parenting or this kind of parenting or that type of parenting fall into one lane that I think a lot of people think you have to do things exactly this way.

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11:06If you follow us on Instagram, you know that working out is my reset button. I need it. It clears my brain. It lifts the fog. It makes me a better parent, hands down. When life is chaotic, and let's be real, it usually is. I have three kids. I need movement that meets me where I am. And that is why I am obsessed with the Peloton Tread Plus. This is not just a treadmill. It's like a whole studio in one. I can lift, run, sculpt, stretch, all from the same place with a swivel screen and real-time coaching that keeps me safe and motivated. It even counts my reps and corrects my form so I can focus on how it feels instead of overthinking every move.

11:50It's kind of like my meditation. And the new Peloton IQ? Game changer. It builds a workout plan for me, recommends classes based on my vibe that day. and actually helps me stay consistent. And that consistency, it's everything. This is not about being perfect. This is not about perfection. It's about one little thing that can help you feel so grounded for the rest of your day. Let yourself run, lift, sculpt, push, and go. Explore the new Peloton Cross Training Tread Plus at onepeloton.com. What does your home feel like? What's your interpretation of the vibe? Yeah, it's not, yeah, there are not binaries in parenting.

12:32Like, and each kid is different. And you can take a lot of the principles, like the fundamental principles of like, just be kind to kids. And I have a lot of these. And that's kind of the lowest hanging fruit that I talk about in my book. That's the stuff that I talk about on my social platforms. But then the truth is you are the expert in your kid. And so it's learning those things and then learning how to apply them in a way, right? So in my home, I would say that I do the best that I can and I'm probably a great parent 25 % of the time. Really? You think 25 %? I think 25 % of the time when everything is going right for me, I'm a great parent.

13:16And then another 25 % of the time, I'm probably a terrible parent. And then the 50 % in the middle, I'm somewhere in the middle and it's messy. and sometimes it looks like, you know, no matter where you are in the imperfect, and I wouldn't say, when I say great, I'm not saying perfect, not at all, right? But I would say 25 % of the time I parent in alignment with my values and then 75 % of the time I'm learning how to apologize well and I think that that's the difference and that's a growth edge for all of us, learning how to apologize and regulate and I would say that it's 25 % of the time now, 10 years ago, or 10 years ago, 10 months ago, it was probably more like 20 % of the time.

13:58Two kids ago, it was probably more like 10 % of the time. And so it's a growth thing. And I will say with four kids, it gets easier. It gets a lot easier. Because - It really says that. Yes, yes. And they're right. And it's not because, I hate when people say it's because you stopped caring and you just kind of go. No, it's because with every successive kid, you are less sure that you have all of the answers. And so there's a lot less deconstruction before construction. When my daughter came along, I was like, I got no clue what I'm doing here. You're going to have to tell me who you are, baby girl, and then I'm going to have to figure out how to apply all of this stuff to you.

14:37Versus with my first son, I had to unlearn 25 years of what it was to be a parent before I could even work with him. And then it was through him, he taught me how to be a better parent. And then the next kid came along and guess what? I thought I had all the answers then too. And then the third kid came along and I was like, pretty sure if I had had these two very different kids that by the third kid, I was going to really know. And he was completely different. And then the fourth comes along and I stopped thinking that I had the answers. And so I'm in the hospital having written this book. Like it's done.

15:15It just hasn't been published yet. And I'm going to be this guy who's written this book about parenting, and everybody's going to think that I know everything. And I'm holding this girl going, I have no idea what I'm doing here. And that's actually the growth. That's what being a good parent looks like. It's saying, I may not know day to day, but I can do better. But still holding your core values. Like you said, you want to be a kind parent. You have certain core values. I think that's so true. And I feel that way with three. But I swear, also, there's actual research that says three is the hardest and four is the easiest, which is mind blowing to me.

15:57And everyone says that. You'll have to send that to my husband who has a vasectomy, so it's not going to work out. But with each kid, I feel like I let go of control more and more. I knew all the research going into it. And I knew all the things I wanted to do so very differently than my parents or how I wanted the outcomes to exactly be, whether that's long term or whether that's just nap time. I need nap time to go exactly so or else yada, yada, yada. And with each kid, it's like you just release a little more control. I actually did say, I think on a different podcast that this was my era of like not caring, as you said, but I mean it in the best way possible, where it took me three kids to release control and be like, okay, these are my fundamental values.

16:47And then outside of that, I'm going to have to really, like, I can't control everything, you know, and be amazing. It's such a blessing. And some people are like that with like less kids, but that was not me. That was not me. I love that you say that because I actually, one of the ideas that I've been playing around with recently as I've like, I'm a big frameworks guy. So I have these things that I tell myself over and over, like, you know, feel the heat, take a beat. So when you start to feel yourself get escalated, we can get into like that. That one's the one that I've been really struggling with lately.

17:19But one of the frameworks that I've been thinking about recently is this idea of not having rules as a parent, having values. And then rules grow out of those values and boundaries grow out of those values because rules are always temporary. They're always at a stage and at an age. And so you might have a rule that your kid can't play in the front yard when they're two. And that's probably a good rule if they can't play alone in the front yard by themselves at two because they're going to run into the street and get hit by a car or something. But if you have that same rule for them when they're 12, then really what you're saying is that the value is safety around cars or safety in the street.

17:59A 12-year-old, the way that they live out that value is by learning how to cross the street safely, or maybe learning how to bike on the street safely. For a nine-year-old, it's learning how to cross the street safely. For a five-year-old, it's learning how to look both ways before they hold your hand and cross the street and they're practicing. For a two-year-old, it probably means you don't go near the street. Those are all different rules, but they're all based on the same value. And so I've actually started shifting and saying, look, I can have like 10 values as a family, and out of that can grow rules.

18:29But otherwise, you're just playing whack-a-mole. And I don't want to play whack-a-mole because I don't want to have, you know, I have different rules for my nine-year-old, my five-year-old, my three-year-old, not to mention my one-year-old. So I think that that's a really good point. I could not love this more. This is, you got to like, we got to shout this from the rooftops. I love this. It's also a great way to, I think, approach how we're talking to our kids, right? When the two kids are just, you know, tearing each other apart because that's what siblings do. And rather than sort of barking, like, don't be mean to your sister.

19:03Right. Right. It's like, what is the value here? The value is that everyone in our family feels heard and they feel loved. And they're also able to express things that hurt their feelings. So rather than saying to your sister, hey, you're an idiot. it or you, maybe that happened. Or the one in my house all the time is meanie. They're like, meanie, meanie, meanie. And they hate it. And I'm trying really hard to say, rather than you are statements, really in our house, we express how we're feeling. Because how you're feeling is really valid right now. When you said this, it hurt my feelings. That's super valid, but we're not going to label the other person.

19:47And that just kind of goes back the values rather than just spitting out, don't say that. Now you're being mean. Another thing that I've been kicking around recently that comes to mind when you say this is how much, and this is again that paradigm shift of rules versus values. I've stopped saying that's not a thing that we say in our house. I've started saying that's not a tone that we use. Because what I've noticed, and if you want to do the experiment with me right now, like live on the call. We can say the exact same words in four different ways and they mean four different things, right? It's time to go.

20:27That means like it's excitement. We're going somewhere. Like there's going to be fun. Even if it's the grocery store, we can say it's time to go. We can say it's time to go. That means, you know, you know, you are having fun. It's okay to be disappointed, but it's time to go home from the park. It's time to go. And that's totally different, right? Like now all of a sudden we've sent them into like their fight or flight. Did your blood pressure just spike? Right? And so it's the way that we say things. And so like even you're an idiot and you stay, I think that's great, right? A value of saying like we treat people with kindness, which means that the rule is we don't use, we don't label people, right?

21:07So that's a good value and it's a good rule. but you could also have a banter back and forth with your husband and you're an idiot. And that's cute and it's playful. And it's not the same thing as saying, you're an idiot. And so I think so much of it is teaching our kids that social relationships are so much in the tone. There's so much in how we, the intention with which we interact. And sometimes we come across in a way that we don't intend to. And we can say, hey, that tone is what really got to me there. I didn't like that you used your mad voice. I don't care what you were saying. Because I find myself, like, people are always like, what's the script?

21:49What's the script? What's the script? I'm like, man, you can say this script five different ways. And one of these can be very punitive in traditional parenting and authoritarian parenting. And one of them can be really permissive and have no teeth at all. And your kids are going to totally dismiss you and ignore you. And then there's other ways to do it that are effective. And so I feel like that's a big piece too. I love that as well. And that's a value, right? That's how we speak to each other. And hey, if you can't, if the tone, you can't get to the tone, what are the things we're going to do until we're ready to use the tone?

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25:46It's all an experiment.

25:51okay so because you're brilliant i want to know if there is one thing that you were to tell parents who want to raise emotionally healthy you know whole kids who become whole adults and you were to strip everything else away and they were to just focus on one thing what would you tell them to focus on start with the end in mind so start with the end in mind is a principle from seven habits of highly effective people and the idea of start with the end in mind where we place it in parenting is that instead of starting with the short-term goal that you're trying to institute into your kid the obedience that you're trying to get right?

26:42And I used to say, by the way, when I used to say this, I used to say that obedience is a bad value. But I think that that's, I actually think starting with the end in mind encompasses that obedience is a bad value because you realize that you don't want your kid to be obedient at 40 years old, right? So start with the end in mind. Think about the fact that the majority of people live to, let's say, 70 years old. My dad lived to 65, but the majority of people lived to, let's say, 70 years old, roughly, right? And maybe that's going to be older by the time our kids grow up. That means that half of their life has been lived at 35, and yet most of us only parent for the first third of their life.