Jack McCauley's Journey: From Oculus Co-Founder to AI, VR, and Gaming Innovator

33:24When Facebook was, you know, interested in Oculus, had you, you'd already kind of created the headset, had it launched the first one? Talk me through the timeline of what was going on and what you're working on there. Sure. So we launched a Kickstarter and we gave, so the way Kickstarter works is - So you came on pre-Kickstarter? Yeah, I was there. They filmed the Kickstarter video at my other place. I know it was a book written. Yeah, they filmed it in my other studio. So I didn't have a studio. I had one. Okay. So R and D center or whatever. Yeah. So they came in and they filmed the Kickstarter video.

33:58It went up and we had 90 days to get it finished. This is the first developer kit. And that is just a staggering short period of time. So I took Palmer's prototype to China and we reversed. Palmer got the lenses on eBay for the DK1. Those were on eBay. He got those on eBay. We didn't have any specs on anything. We got other parts from other people like Mark Bolas at USC gave us some stuff and reality labs. But essentially it was cold, dead cold. The strap was from Scott goggles, like a ski goggles. That's what it came from. So we cobbled that together and took that over there and had them source the parts and do the tooling.

34:42And incidentally, the woman that owns the factory is a very close friend of mine. She got the guitar girl stuff. That was a huge break for her. Before that, she was doing little game controllers and stuff. She got this huge contract. So she owed me. But I took it in there. I go, this is, I had to sell it. I was like, this is going to change the world. She looked at it. She goes, okay, let me see. And she took off. She goes, how much money you guys got? I go, not much. She goes, okay, you have to give me half up front. And well, I can make 10 ,000 of them, but you got to pay me. So we had to scrounge up 750K or something like that.

35:18Alls to metal. And kind of the way I went down is very informal, not like contract signing lawyers and all that. We didn't do that. We just like kind of hacked our way in. And I liked that, by the way. But it wasn't, it didn't go down like that. So DK1, to answer your question, comes along and launches and it sells through like 10 ,000. God, we made more. sells through. Suddenly we're like at a it's a small run it's not very tiny but like 70 ,000 units and it's still being bought with a subpar sort of performance. It's just a couple people's prototype thing that we've reproduced in plastic essentially that we did.

36:00And it was selling really well and the buzz that it was starting to show up on tv on you know Jimmy Kimmel and all this those stuff and that's brennan but and so we kind of realized that we might be on that they might be on to something um and and at least the talent and skill that certain people have like my boss from marketing and getting stuff into people's things he's so good at that he's he's a really talented guy he's also a software engineer he doesn't do that though he's you know he's a show showman you Okay, gotcha. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So he sold 70 ,000 and then so what are we going to do?

36:38Well, Vive, we have a competitor now in Washington, right? And we had been working with those guys and they have a room experience unit, right? You can walk around in, which is ultimately what you want. Yeah, yeah. We had a room experience prototype at Oculus and we got that from Valve mostly, but we already kind of had that, but we chose a seated experience for a cockpit case. But we had to eliminate some vestibular motion sickness issues. We used a camera and LEDs on the inside of the headset that you can't see that are like markers. You can monitor the position in the head and so forth and get translations from side to side.

37:15With DK1, those kinds of translations aren't handled. They can't be. The technology doesn't exist. But a camera looking at it from the outside, an observer can do that. So we came out with DK2 and DK2 sold 150 ,000. It's like, boom. Right? Okay. So the timeline is DK1 and now we have people's attention and Mark Zuckerberg is interested and Mark Zuckerberg shows up at the office in Irvine in Orange County, two stories of a high-rise thing. And the sales pitch was on. He was like, Brennan could sell you moon dust, even though he's done moon dust. He sold it to him. And the rest is kind of history.

38:06It was on Silicon Valley. They were skewering it. And when you're getting skewered on a comedy show, you know you've had an impact. Yeah. Yeah. So that, and at the same time, I'm like looking at this and I'm going, you know, where are we going with this? And then I'm looking at it. We're going to get acquired. by meta i think that's what's going to happen here this right i knew what was happening right and uh i was in china this is a funny story brendan calls me it's like four o 'clock in the morning and i go he goes hello i had my iphone 2 or whatever it was he goes uh guess what i go what i said you woke me up he goes we sold the business um to facebook and he goes he goes He said something like, you have a stack of dollar bills going to the moon or something like that.

38:54I don't remember exactly what he said. So I said, okay. So I called my wife and told her, well, what do I do? Yeah. And she didn't say it. So another friend of mine said, do you think you fit in at Facebook? And I go, no. I like to work at a studio. I mean, I like art. That's where I want to be. I don't want to be moderating people's silly Facebook posts or whatever. I don't think I'd do that. You know what I mean? It's like a language cop or a mood cop. So I decided that I would look at my exit pretty quickly after that. And I went to Brighton and I go, hey, man, I don't want to work there. And I don't want to work at Facebook.

39:42I said, what would happen to me? I'd probably get fired. to do something i probably would no i would get fired but i would probably say something or do something you know and be unhappy yeah i wouldn't get happy so and he goes okay only talk to him it comes back to me it's okay you can leave i was like with your money now most deals like this you have to stay there for five years right yeah yeah and it's risky because if you get fired that's your competition you could lose a portion of that so i looked at that and i go well if i go there and fired me i could lose why don't i just take it all now that's kind of what i was thinking at the time and so he granted me that and and then the rest i bet that's eight years ago or something 10 years 10 years ago since we formed the company coming up on 11.

40:30and eight years is that true eight years since exit yeah i exited 2015. you know when you go to i go to facebook and I look around the building three and there's like beanbag chairs on the floor and a desk that you sit across from. I don't like that. I mean, I look at the guy all day long and lay around beanbag chairs, an old man. And I didn't see anyone there that was older than me. I would be the oldest person. Maybe the cook. There was a guy. The chef is cooking, cooking their, you know, vegan specials or whatever. and he was by my age. I go, man, I just I won't fit in here. I can tell. It's just, and what would they do with me?

41:13I don't know what they would use me for. They need a hardwinger. I will say this. The Quest was a fantastic piece of hardwood. They did a really good job on that. It took a long time, but it's really, really good. Is it perfect? No, it's not perfect, but But for$350, it's pretty good. I know. That price point is hard to beat. And I mean, looking at like with what we're seeing with Apple coming into this space, do you feel like that's validating to the idea? What like, I would just love, I know you don't have a crystal ball, but like from your view of the past, like how do you think Apple's new headset is going to play into this pricing and all that, you know?

41:55Well, I know the people who are running the headset program at Apple, the guy that's running it is entirely competent and a really really good engineer he's the vp level guy um and uh i know him really pretty well they try to hire me recruit me but i think the problem i faced at facebook would be the same problem i'd face at apple it's just not for me so yeah uh i think it's great i think it's expensive but it costs as much as a car and and then you know in in mexico i live there a little bit. I got a house there. The wages are low. But people have a mobile phone. I'm looking at it going, so the phone's$400 and you make$2 ,600 a year.

42:37How does that work? That's like, that's an expensive item. Well, they have a payment plan and you pay for the hardware as part of your monthly payments and so forth. So it kind of works. They can make it work. you know they have to hold on to the phone for a long time but is is the but the utility of a phone is obvious i mean you need one yeah do you need a vr headset um uh at the same sort of utility level that you need a phone i would say no you know vr headsets uh are uh for entertainment now granted the phone is for entertainment too but i would say that uh they're going to be challenge now apple is a has got the gdp of mexico almost i think that's true no yeah don't quote me on that it's it's the compass three trillion dollar company it's good yeah it's good yeah uh they can they afford to have one fail yeah sure you know big deal try again try something else but whatever they do they do really well i i think in my view their stuff i don't i'm not an apple pc I don't like their computers, but their phones are great.

43:45I don't like Android. I like Apple. So it's my problem. Whatever they do, they do well, and it's high quality, and it works. I mean, how many times, ask yourself, if you have an Apple, how many times does it reboot or crash? Almost never. Yeah, that is true. Myriad of applications that they didn't write running. Yeah. A testament to the quality of the engineering that went into it. And they've always had a good engineering there. So, but they can afford to take a hit, um, kind of smaller company, uh, afford that kind of a hit. Um, let me tell you what I think if we hadn't been acquired by, we would have failed.

44:22The company would have folded because the cost of goods we didn't have, we didn't have an application for it. That we didn't have any games that had a couple of small things and demo games and stuff like that. So what were people using it for? Like those early, uh, you know, once they were buying. Well, we had developers, people were writing content around it. So we got some of those, right. The DK one is developer kit one and developer kit two, uh, CV one, consumer version one, so forth. So we had developers, uh, that were developing content around it, but there was no major application for it.

44:58And, uh, interesting when I, when I got the quest, when I first got the quest and put it on. I didn't know. I thought the games were kind of a dud. Okay. They're kind of weird. Yeah. It was like a disco you went into. I mean, what are you supposed to do? What's the strategy? Games got to have strategy. Yeah. It's got to have, there's got to be a social component. This is the new part of gaming. Like you're playing against people all over the world. Right. But what's the goal? What goals do you have? Is it to conquer the fort on the hill? Or what are you trying to do? Or shoot the tanks? Right.

45:28There's no goal and I just didn't get it. And you have Beat Saber I mean, it's an arcade-ish game, and you can play that for 20 minutes. But they don't have a long-term play application. I love the idea of a metaverse. I think that's a really cool idea. You can have your own currency. Robots, you know what I mean? You can have your own currency. It's a land you can go visit, and you can have your own lifestyle. You can be better looking than you are. You can have Ferraris and all that stuff. You have to earn them. I think it's a great idea. but the execution um because facebook is not made it's not a video game company uh didn't happen yeah and had they had they had formed their stuff out to a dynamic studio and bought a studio and gotten the hell out of the way it would have had probably a different outcome they need a killer game with it and a creative game uh so they didn't have that and how much visual stuff can you do okay the spaceship blew up and you know star wars the guy falls out of the spaceship and i come on so much of that you can it's like okay it's great visuals but what do i do now so that's my take on it um one other thing on that what do you think so it's busy like pretty pretty commented on when apple kind of launched their vr headset yeah the thing was super high end super high quality apple makes great things so they have that reputation but it was noted that they they didn't mention like games at all in their headset launch.

46:54So do you think that's going to hold them back? Like, isn't that a big part of adoption of these VR headsets? What is, what is Apple, Apple's, uh, okay. Apple sells entertainment. They have iTunes. Yeah. And now they're starting to get into feature films. They're, they're getting into content for their hardware. If they could come up with, uh, uh, a game or content for it, I don't know what that would be. One of the really good ideas I heard, and this was attempted, is like if you wanted to go to a sports venue and you want to sit on like a Jets game or something like that, or Niners, and sit on a 50-yard line, you could sell that ticket to 100 people and have them put the headset on and watch the game right there with people right next to you, real people.

47:44And people are working on this with 360 cameras and so forth. they were thinking about this i think that's a great uh i would like to do that like to go to a game or that is something and sit on the 50 yard line that's great and pay 20 bucks or 50 bucks or something to watch three hours of football yeah that's something that i would i would enjoy and do so this is this is the thing is like they just haven't no one has has had the ability to come up with a mechanism or entertainment part for a headset. They just haven't been able to do that so far. And this is what's probably holding it back. Granted, there are vestibular issues also.

48:27So this is why a game where you walk around and you're wearing the headset doesn't really work very well. That's what the main one is it makes people sick. I don't get sick from it. I've been staring at computer screens for 40 years, but a lot of people who don't do that put it on and they go, oh, I don't feel well. I feel dizzy. And so anyways, that's my call. And Apple's ability to execute is well known. Their stuff's flawless. You know, the Apple has an app for the car, right? Apple Car? Why aren't car manufacturers using that? I mean, there's cars everywhere. There's some using it. I have a car with it in it, but they want to sell their own.

49:09They want their own content. and their own software. I heard an interview with Ford Motor Company that said we don't provide hardly any of the software for our cars. It's all third-party stuff. It seems to me you'd want to bring that in and put content in the vehicle. Tesla's pretty much done that successfully. They have games and stuff you put in there. Yeah, yeah. And so this is the issue really is that there's not really good content for VR right now. You heard some of my ideas here. But watching a movie at a movie theater sounds good. But why aren't we doing that? If it could bring in revenue, people would be doing it.

49:55Yeah. Quest will have 20 million headsets. This is what they quoted. That's pretty good. Yeah. That's a lot of them. Yeah, actually, no, a ton of people, especially with the cheaper version. I don't know if the pro did quite as well. I heard they kept cutting the price and handing it out at the end. So that's why I'm concerned about Apple, just because it seems like that price point that might make it a little bit tricky. Question for you, kind of on the overall landscape in tech right now, based off of what you've seen in the past and today. I feel like we've seen a couple different waves over the last number of years.

50:30We've seen kind of there was like the Web3 crypto wave. There is this whole metaverse wave. Um, different levels of those things have kind of sputtered out or changed today. Of course, we're seeing the AI wave where everyone's integrating AI. How would you compare what we're seeing in AI today to some of these previous kind of like big, some people call them bubbles or waves or whatever, but kind of revolutions in tech. Um, I will say that no one's quite clearly explained what AI does. they know that they can go onto a website and ask it to write a song or tell a story, but no one's been able to explain exactly what it is or what it does.

51:12And so a lot of it's fear. People are afraid of it. Well, what if it starts interfering with social things? And it may be already, but this is the kind of stuff that people are concerned about. Politics, people using it for nefarious purposes. generating stories that aren't true and repeating them in the media over and over again until they become true. This is what people are afraid of. Can it be, if you see the majority, I don't know if you've looked at the art and stuff. Some of that stuff is just like hellish to look at. It's like a nightmare. Some of it's beautiful. Some of those, the automobile renders and things that have been done with it are just stunning.

51:58So it has two purposes. One, I mean, there's two spectrums. One is very negative things it can do and also very positive things it can do. I don't believe personally that trying to regulate it, if governments try to regulate it, they're going to regulate it in a way which benefits them, not the populace. Yeah. So I don't think it's government needs to get involved in that. It has to be self-regulated. There has to be some way of self-regulating. So I'm not sure how that would play out exactly. but there has to be some mechanism for doing that and that would have to be intrinsic in the provider of the service.

52:37I think Microsoft has Azure One, I think it's a supercomputer they build. That's the backbone of a lot of the current apps that are out there, which utilize AI by using Microsoft stuff. I mean, basically it kind of comes out of the cloud. And so I typed in my name one day to see what it said about me. It was not, most of it wasn't true. It was really weird. So can it be curated to lie about things? I think it can be. And then, so what I did was I injected false information into a Wikipedia page and then ran it again. Now it's giving me the stuff from the Wikipedia page. So it looks like it goes to Reddit and Wikipedia to get its stuff.

53:22So, um, there's a guy in a bull frame that is really good write up on the API. Um, for that use for the most popular AI interfaces. Um, and he did a really good job of writing it up and explaining it. I recommend people to go there. Okay. Very, yeah. Very interesting. Um, I would also be curious to hear your thoughts on, you know, so of course we're, we're implementing AI. Do you feel like this is a little bit more perhaps like hype around AI? Do you think that it's as impactful as perhaps we're being told? Do you feel like it is less impactful or more? Like, for example, we have people like, you know, Sam Altman saying we're going to start doing universal basic income soon because AI is going to essentially replace most jobs.

54:09Do you see that being the case in the future?

54:15I think if you're a writer or an actor, that would be something you'd need to worry about. I don't know how AI would replace a person who does podcasts. Perhaps it could. I mean, to be honest with you, you're very good at this. I've been through a couple of podcasts and you obviously have a talent for it. I appreciate it. There's things it can't do. Can it treat people's medical conditions? Maybe symptomatically, it could, but it can't do surgery. I mean, you can't do that. Although they have the surgery robots and so forth. It can't drive a Formula One car very well. So a lot of things it can't do.

54:50Can it write scripts? Can it write jokes? It can do that kind of stuff, yeah. But it's kind of, yeah. Can it write songs? Yes, it can write. I used an AI app, I mentioned, but to write a song just to see if it can write. It was pretty good. It was a country western song. Really? Yeah, you just put, write a song about a puppy, and it'll write the song about a puppy. So country western. And so it can do that kind of stuff. I think you're onto something there. I don't know that universal basic income is the answer. You think that you just have to reskill yourself. Can AI be a roofer or plumber? You can't.

55:27Can AI fix your car? No. You can't take an engine to park your car. Can it frame a home? You can't do that. Maybe those will be the high-end jobs, you know? Yeah. You know? Labor, you know? You can't really do labor. It can do intellectual stuff, probably some stuff, but it can't do certain things now anyway. So, okay. So, and I want to dive a little deeper on that. So, for example, for the podcast, I actually, prior to starting this podcast, actually made probably like 10 podcasts, which were completely written by and spoken by AI, and they became incredibly popular. But I also realized that those podcasts had a hard time converting listeners to like followers.

56:11And so when I started this podcast, of course, I had that background and I'm like, oh, maybe I'll do an AI podcast and just like make a clone of my voice and then use that. But I came to the conclusion that you actually need like a physical person that makes mistakes that messes up. Like as AI becomes more prevalent and like everywhere, people aren't going to want to listen to what is like a like a perfect like they want mistakes they want like a little human error in it so anyways that's with the podcast thing but my my question on like plumbers and roofers this is something that i'm like a little concerned about so tesla right now of course they're making their tesla humanoid robot there's others what if like do you see like that as a viable solution or option in the future where like let's say there's a tesla humanoid robot that eventually is trained on ai so it's as fluid as a human then it just like you know you get maybe like an electrician or a plumber to wear like a full body suit for like a year while they're doing all their electrical and plumbing work that's all like being trained into a model that now plugs into like this human robot could we not replace like would it not come for blue collar if you're pairing it with like the the robot side of things well most cars in most car factories even the tests are built robotically there's the assembly and so forth not everything but that replaced human beings and it replaced union workers you know high-paid jobs so um yeah i suppose that could be the case but there's so much uh like decision making and that you need to do when you're doing repair like oh you look down and then there's the floor is rotting below oh i have to go to home depot and and buy parts from Home Depot to fix that, whatever.

57:49There's just so much decision-making and expertise level. It's really hard to get some expertise stuff in AI, I suppose, but just knowledge, just experience is just not there. And so I think it writes a great country-western song. Maybe the, can it fix, can it fix, can it change the light bulbs by looking up at it, knowing which ones are bad? Maybe, I don't think so right now. If I were a script writer or someone in Hollywood, I would be concerned about it. You could create an actor who doesn't exist, not a real person. Yeah. And it's so good. So good. It's uncanny. And just sit there and tune it until you get it to do what you want it to do.

58:30You know, examine an actor's face and see how it behaves. So, yeah, there's certain areas, I think, that it could, you know, warfare also being able to. Here's the thing. that this is a great just let me digress a little bit talk about warfare because this is something that i thought of you know right now um you you can uh have a drone go in and do an attack right yeah and 30 or 40 years ago you would have to have a person go do that yeah the commander who's a human being would have to say sergeant take three of your guys out there and then destroy that whatever it is pillbox was yeah and but what's running through your mind is the commander's like i might get these guys killed i mean they could die how am i going to feel about that right yeah he's a human being of course he's going to feel that with a drone you're not thinking about that you're just going to attack yeah so it brings a whole another level of of danger and warfare escalating it because you're not risking people you're risking a piece of hardware yeah so where am I going with this?

59:37I think that in terms of AI, we have similar types of issues like that. I mean, a nefarious person could construct a political dialogue or something like that because it's just a robot doing it. By your example, doing the interview with an AI, Jaden shaper you know would be you know i mean you're not really risking anything you're risking something for yourself but you could have a uh yeah i guess i could i'm going to go with that it's just like it removes a human factor decision making is based on and warfare is based on you know a lot of it's just how you feel about your lives you know a general doesn't like to send people to their death for sure you know again men and now with with i mean you've probably seen some of those videos from from um ukraine where they're driving mortar rounds i mean it's just uh man yeah that's rough and i think also something like touching on that is like it's uh it's kind of sketchy to me like ai warfare because you look at different countries and they have different military doctrine right like for example we've seen russia is typically more willing to uh like in an invasion lose more of their troops per se um in certain maneuvers and there's just different countries that have like a different value.

1:00:54And if they're training their own AI models, integrating it into war, it just like, I don't know, to me, it like, it just feels kind of gross. But I mean, even for you, I mean, this is probably something you've thought a lot about, right? We have really big AI being integrated into weapons with like Palantir, for example, or even, right, one of your previous co-founders, Palmer, right? He's working on Andril, right? And I'm sure like he has some, I've seen just recently he unveiled like a autonomous, you know, drone airplane. This stuff is all getting AI integrated into it. Fury rather. Yeah. Yeah.

1:01:29Yeah. I don't know. You know, I just I can't tell you everything, but I've been approached by the Air Force to help them with stuff. Right. I'm a little bit on the fence on it. The problem with me is that is that I don't want to have a job. Yeah. Although I would help him. I don't know to which level in that product that he has AI integrated. He says it's completely autonomous. Maybe. I mean, that's a lot of hardware to try to get done. He's been working on what, like eight, five years, six years? It seems like a lot of stuff to get done in a shorter period of time. I'm always wary of announcements like that.

1:02:10It's like, what does it really do? uh-huh you know so uh but i i don't have a lot of comments on on what his you know his stuff it does i'm skeptical a lot of things i hear when i hear announcements like that if it's that good you don't say anything about it yeah it's like you're revealing true revealing revealing your your stuff to the formula one team you know yeah i'm red bull what you're you know you still say anything Although they probably know. So that's kind of what I think on that issue. You know, one of the things about, you know, like GTA 5, Grand Theft Auto 5, you know, you played that, the entire little country that you played in was created entirely in CAD on Autodesk by people.

1:02:55Really? Yeah, it was. Wow. So it draws that in CAD. And I think it would be cool to be able to say to an AI engine, make a building with broken windows and graffiti on it, make it out of brick, make it 10 stories and make smoke coming out of the top. It just does the whole thing, including the shading and texturing for it. Yeah. Yeah. I just saw a tool that's like that. It does 3D worlds based off of AI. And it's so interesting because it's got a little chat bot, like chat GPT, where it's like, you tell it what to do. It builds the world and you're like, okay, make the building taller. Okay. Actually make a moat around it.

1:03:27Okay. Like, and so it's like live editing. So fascinating. This This is going to get into Oculus, integrating this into Horizon Worlds and other things like that. I can't help but think it'll be so fascinating. That's the best utility because the labor that goes in. Also you can have the game generate its own cities, each one very different from the other. As you go along and you play, it just automatically, based on tech script, the new structure, the new building that you run into. I think that's cool. and create monsters and tanks and all kinds of stuff. Mid-Journey, I mean, some of the stuff that's been done is, like I said, it's hellish.

1:04:05But, you know, that's what, if you ask me, that's the best utility for AI. For strategy, it has to be designed, you know, it's designed on a storyboard. Like you tell the story of how, it's like a movie. You tell the story of how the game is to unfold and how it's to play to the producer. You know, this is the people that come up with a game idea. that basically it's like a sketch type thing. Granted, I haven't been around that area in 10 years, but that's basically how it's done. And I got to go at like the E3 or GDC or something. You see people doing a pitch, right? And so the strategy is designed by a human being for entertainment.

1:04:43Can AI design as the game strategy? It would have to be based on previous strategies and what worked well, but certainly I think it could. you know so it would be cool to have a ai engine generate an entire game you could you could be a developer sitting in your house and say you just make an entire game just by doing descriptives yeah so so fascinating i think that's going to be a massive part of it is just this whole personalized angle entertainment yeah you can direct your own movie you pick the actors that are in it you pick like the script and the storyline like come on that's crazy that's That's a really, really good application.

1:05:19It could be its own industry. And you put them up on Netflix or something like that. Yeah. Or put it on Netflix, but yeah. Yeah, and I mean, even people worrying that AI replaces, those actors can get a royalty every time they're included in a certain movie. And maybe they have personal moral things where like, I don't do war movies or I don't do... They could pick their criteria, but you can just kind of mix and match and build. I think that would be a powerful use case. Like movies, music. I mean, I've already heard some incredible Johnny Cash AI songs that I was pretty blown away by. So, yeah, I think there's so many incredible applications.

1:05:53Well, Jack, thank you so much for coming on the AI Chat podcast today. I know this thing went way over. I'm sorry. I was just getting too many incredible insights from you. But if people are interested in reaching out to you and finding more about what you're working on or anything else, what's the best way for them to get in contact with you or see some of the things you're doing? Probably through my assistant. The problem with me is I don't answer my emails. I see them go by. I go, I'll get to that. And I never do. So she filters that stuff. Not filters, but she like bugs me when I don't answer stuff.

1:06:25It's like what happened with you. So that's the best way. And also LinkedIn. Reach out on LinkedIn. I have someone help me with that. So, but yeah, it's been a great talk. And you're really good at this. I was pretty impressed. So thank you. Oh, well, it's been amazing to the listeners. Thank you so much for tuning into the AI chat podcast. Make sure to rate us wherever you get your podcasts and have an amazing rest of your day.