Can the AI Industry Regulate Itself? Stripe Wants PayPal, China Catches Up, NY Bans Datacenters

22:28Maybe they wouldn't. maybe they would just run it more efficiently and kind of milk it for all it's worth kind of do a private equity play the different question what's i think that the interesting question to

22:40Jason Calacanis:ask is what is the only kind of baby that advent and stripe and block could have together and i think there's one which is you are creating a competitor to visa and mastercard because you now have upwards of six or 700 million accounts, you have massive stable coin infrastructure, you have all of the risk management infrastructure that stripe has built over the last 15 or 20 years, the big critique of stripes business model early on was, they had to build so many value added services because everybody always thought the take that they could make as a middleman sitting on top of the traditional rails would effectively get competed away.

23:28Jason Calacanis:Now, to their credit, they've done such a good job that that hasn't happened. But I think what it means now is you can vertically integrate and go soup to nuts. That is probably the most obvious thing to make out of it. So that now Stripe gets access to an ultra low cost set of payment rails, literally like to zero brings it everywhere all over the world. So does block Advent can pour money into it. So it's quite powerful if it comes together. Robert, what does this say about private market companies at scale and Stripe potentially never going public? I mean, how does a private equity firm get their return on this investment in two, three, four years?

24:09Do they wind up selling more of it to Stripe? What are your thoughts here on the structure and capital market implications here? I think there's going to be more of these kinds of deals. If you look at Ryan Cohen's bid for eBay, I think it's probably a second dot on a line that I think is emerging, which is folks that are, call it AI native, are looking at, call it first generation digital native businesses that have become mature and old and stale and aren't run by the founders anymore and have not yet realized the opportunities with AI, have not yet realized their potential or overspending in a lot of ways.

24:52And when you take a look at those businesses, as a modern day AI operator, you're like, what the hell this thing is so underutilized, they're not using their network. Well, they're not operating well, they're overspending, they're not using AI well. And there's a set of opportunities that become quite obvious. And I think the capital markets as we've seen with like Josh Kushner's roll up of accounting firms and General Catalyst has a project like this, where you can kind of use capital to go buy, you know, in those cases, traditional services businesses and AI-ify them. I think this is part of a line of maybe looking at traditional digital businesses and AI-ifying them.

25:34And there's a long list of these, there's a couple dozen of them. So I think if you looked at the public markets, and you said, hey, where are all these kind of If software companies, network businesses that emerged in the early part of the internet, or even in the more recent part of the internet aren't run by their founders anymore, have stalled out, there's a massive opportunity. Now, the question as a capital provider is who do you partner with to go and execute that operational revival of that business? You're not going to go hire some McKinsey consultant to do that work for you. It's got to be the best of the best.

26:06It's got to be the right players in the business. So I think Ryan Cohen has proved his mettle, obviously, with some of the things that he's done with Chewy and GameStop. And that's obviously debatable. I spent some time interviewing him to understand his processes. This was on the All In interview program. You can go to our channel and find it there. It's last month. Thanks for the plug. And obviously, when it comes to payments, who better than Stripe? And maybe Jack Dorsey plays a role here. And by the way, I think because capital, I mean, if you think about that$17 billion equity contribution, what that technically means is Stripe is selling and Block is selling$17 billion of equity to the cash investors.

26:45that cash is then going to buy a paypal therefore stripe and block end up owning a piece of paypal the private equity investors own a piece of block and stripe and what is not clear in the deal docs that were published because i don't think it's relevant to the public markets is who's actually going to operate paypal post-close and my bet would be that they're going to hand it over to the Stripe guys and say, you guys go for it. Yeah, I think that's clear. Yeah, because they're the most qualified and they will have the biggest stake in it. So I will make a prediction. I think that eBay and PayPal are probably the beginning of a wave of mega deals of call it flaccid, you know, digital businesses.

27:29You have to much attention. That can be revived with the blue chew of capital and the right operator. Again, I think that there's probably a big wave of this to come.

27:39Jason Calacanis:The other thing is this is probably not the final clearing price. I think the price is probably another 10 to 15 % higher from here. And, and I will say that there's a certain individual that must look very closely at putting in a competitive bid. Oh, a certain individual who may, may have his fingerprints on the original PayPal, who might also have four or five trillion dollars in market cap to play with, who also made a 60 billion dollar acquisition recently. We don't have inside information here. To your point, Freberg. Correct. This is becoming a playbook. There's a company called Bending Spoons that just went public.

28:24they bought a bunch of non-founder led assets aol for 1.4 billion vimeo for 1.4 billion we transfer eventbrite bright code ever no time with him i was just dm 'ing with him he's awesome i've hung out with this guy this guy is an absolute friggin operational killer he in italy he bought evernote yeah yeah he runs the whole thing from milan he bought evernote and he just goes in and he diagnoses these businesses he's like how are they being over where are you overspending where are you underspending? What are you doing wrong with the product? And what are you doing wrong with marketing? And he just frigging fixes it.

28:57And he's just a killer. And he's taken all of these what were called web 2.0 businesses, and he's revitalized them, rolled them up, and printing cash out of them. And lowers the cost to run them. And lower the cost. He's using young AI first executives from what I'm told. Totally. It's a great call out, J. Cal. Like bending spoons is the roll up of this sort of strategy. But for these mega deals, I think there's more of them to come. I will say, you know, the higher order bit here, which we talked about for a couple of years, was venture capital was on the ropes for a couple of years under the wrath of Lena Kahn.

29:31And then once Trump got elected, all the executives working in corporate development said, hey, looks like M &A's back on the menu. And now we're seeing deal after deal after deal get consummated. People are no longer scared of doing deals. Uber just bought Delivery Hero today. That's going to jump their revenue by 20. Yeah, and that's going to jump their revenue by... They're getting diluted 10%. It's going to jump their revenue 24 % or something crazy like that. And this is going to be, I think, the big story the next couple of years. And all this liquidity, talking to LPs and family offices, which I do on a regular basis, they're all like, hey, when's your next fund?

30:09Hey, when's the next deal? Because now people are believing in venture because of the SpaceX distributions and all this M &A. And we have four or five companies that got bought since Donald Trump was elected president. Thank you to my president, Donald J. Trump, for putting M &A back on the menu, Saks. M &A back on the menu. Why didn't you make a bid Saks for PayPal? Been there, done that. Been there, done it. Okay. No, but look, you have to have synergies.

30:34Jason Calacanis:There was a moment, this was like 15 years ago, where they asked Saks to go back and be the CEO. That was right. I remember that at the poker game. He and I immediately flew to Vegas and spent the weekend there to think about it. You know what? I wasn't. No, they didn't ask me to. You considered it, though. Well, no, I never got the offer, but it was down to like final two or something. And it was between me and someone else. And actually, they ended up going with some, you know, like traditional, like credit card executive. And to be honest, that's why PayPal has stagnated is that as soon as it was acquired back in 2002, they basically blew out all the founders, all the founding DNA, and it was just kind of run by consulting types.

31:21You got to remember at that time, it was acquired by eBay. And Meg Whitman had worked at Procter & Gamble and Disney. And she spent like eight years at Bain. And it was like a very corporate mindset. I mean, among all the internet companies of that era, it was definitely the most corporatist. And they saw the founders, the founding generation at PayPal as just a problem. Just a bunch of like cowboys they couldn't control. They made no effort to retain them. And I think they were kind of relieved when they all left. And then that's what created the PayPal mafia. was that, you know, normally in an acquisition, you'd lock up all the talent.

31:56But in this case, they locked them out. They're like, these guys are too hard to manage. Change the keys. I've said for a long time, it's a misnomer to call it the PayPal mafia. It's really the PayPal diaspora. Totally. Our homeland was taken over and they burned our temple and then kicked everybody out. Yeah. And that's why the whole PayPal mafia got started with all those companies. But as a result of that, for decades, I don't say anyone was a victim. No, I'm joking. Look, when you acquire a company, you get to decide what to do with that asset. So, I mean, that was just the reality. But it's not like, you know, I don't think anyone was bitter about it.

32:30They're all like, okay, this gives us the capital to go, I'll do the next thing we want to do. Well, the new CEO, by the way, Enrique, is really aces. I've met him before, and they're doing a great job, apparently, which is why they probably got these offers, because they've been tightening that business up for the last couple of years. Well, no, the reason they got these offers is the market cap is down to, you know, it was down in the, what, like 30 something billion. I mean, this is a company that was worth 200 billion, wasn't it roughly? 322, I think was the peak. And before this offer, it was down to what, 30 to 40 billion?

33:01Yep. So the reason why it's attracting offers is it's so beaten up. And so now the question is, can anyone else do something with it? Zach, to your comment about you've got to have synergies, Doesn't it seem to be the case that in this era, the core synergy that any great operator can bring to the table in this sort of a scenario is AI? Like you can leverage, whether it be in this business or others, you can leverage tools that drive automation, that drive product development, that drive improvements and efficiencies across the organization that make the product actually better for the user, etc., etc.

33:34That simply isn't obviously being well implemented. Well, look, I think you have to have a product vision of how you would use AI to make the whole user experience better. And yes, you're right that you could just use AI to drive efficiencies and that will improve your profitability and earnings. And so on a financial level, you could make the acquisition work. but it seems to me that the existential issue for paypal is that you're dealing with a product that's 25 years old i mean it's the same thing that we created back you know like 27 years ago i mean it's changed a little bit but not that much and the problem is that that that interaction model is legacy and so unless you've got a vision of how to resuscitate it and rejuvenate that that product, I think, yeah, it could be a good financial play.

34:24Jason Calacanis:I think they're buying the accounts. Yeah. Yeah. What you're saying is interesting because with Stripe, I mean, this is the advantage that Stripe has is that they have a ton of merchants, right? So they've become the preferred mechanism for merchants to basically accept payments via APIs. And I think they're doing about$2 trillion a year of annual transaction volume. I think PayPal is doing 1.7. So actually, Stripe is a little bigger than PayPal now. But the thing that PayPal has that Stripe doesn't really have is the consumer relationship. So over 400 million active consumer accounts. So you're right, Shamath, that if somehow you could combine the merchant relationships with all those consumer accounts, then bypass the credit card networks, because in theory, there could be a lot more on-us transactions.

35:16Exactly. And that's where the value is.

35:18Jason Calacanis:PayPal already owns Braintree. So now you have Stripe and Braintree that effectively were competitors that won't be. And then what Block gives you is an entire point of sale infrastructure and you get the cash out. So you put it all together and I think it's a shot across the bow for Visa and MasterCard. Braintree is the other one that I think you just mentioned there, Chamath, that's important because that is a very strong business that people don't even know that PayPal owns. venmo is also that speaks to a lot of young people so you kind of get in two generations you're getting gen x and millennials uh a lot of bang for your buck there yeah it's what sat said is true they have enough of these things to go end to end on their own rails that is a very yeah the question is whether you can package it all together in a way that the consumer will actually choose because it's one thing to say well we take the merchant relationships of stripe and the consumer relationships of PayPal.

36:12No, you don't do that. But what if the consumer doesn't want that?

36:15Jason Calacanis:No, you don't do that. I think what you do is you go to places like all of the merchants that use Stripe and say, we'll give you a three or four or 5 % discount. And they'll be like, okay. And so you'll see these prices that just fall everywhere. Like imagine if Shopify was like to all their merchants, okay, you have two choices, the old way or the new way. The new way, you put another two or three or 4 % in your pocket. Of course, they're gonna pick the new way. Well, and this is the paradox of like modern M &A. If you look at protecting the consumer, this will ultimately be great for the consumers.

36:47This is going to lower the prices on it. They're not buying this. Okay.

36:51Jason Calacanis:You're saying something really interesting. It is so good for consumers if this were to happen. This is the exact reason why if this had happened two years ago, this would have been the antitrust equivalent of a colorectal exam. I mean, you would not even. get one step close to doing this deal two years ago. Well, that's really interesting, actually. I mean, the key question with antitrust is how do you define the market? And so if you define the market as APIs for merchants, then Jcal, it would be Stripe versus Braintree. And then the government would say, well, you can't consolidate a share.

37:30However, if the real market is Visa and MasterCard, that's the ultimate duopoly. And if PayPal can add competition to that market, which is infinitely larger than APIs, then it's actually pro-competitive. So how you define the market determines whether it's anti-competitive or pro-competitive.

37:48Jason Calacanis:And those guys are smart enough and they've read enough books where they won't f*** this one up. All right, let's get to the next topic. Somebody else is suing OpenAI. This time it's Apple. On July 10th, Apple filed a 41-page lawsuit against OpenAI over alleged stolen trade secrets. Apple says OpenAI stole their IP to develop their consumer hardware device. Remember, we had Sarah Fryer at Liquidity, and I probed her on this new device, and she said it was very human and lovable. She gave us a little bit of the goods. Well, it turns out Apple is alleging that maybe this is partially their IP. Tang Tan, Apple's former VP of iPhone design, is OpenAI's chief hardware officer.

38:38He allegedly directed Apple job candidates interviewing at OpenAI to bring, quote, actual parts to interviews, to, quote, show and tell in the interviews. Chang Liu, former Apple senior technical engineer, sent this text message to a still-employed Apple colleague, quote, LOL, I found out I can access the network storage. So funny. During all of this, OpenAI has poached over 400 Apple employees over the last year or two. Big numbers of poaching. Apple and Tim Cook have seen enough chamath. Tim Cook greenlit this. As insane as this is, Sam Waltman has found a way, found a way to screw yet another party.

39:23Screwed Elon, his first benefactor. Chamath, if you remember correctly, the default for iPhone AI was supposed to be chat GPT. So they took this relationship. Sam took this relationship where he got to be the default on the most important platform for AI, the iPhone. And now it's wound up in a massive lawsuit. What What are your thoughts on this?

39:49Jason Calacanis:I haven't really seen Apple act very litigiously in 25 years in Silicon Valley. So that's obviously a concerning data point for open AI. They're very reactive more than they are proactive on these things. So there must have been something that really, really upset them. Egregious, yeah. So I don't know. It's going to take a court to sort this out. I don't really want to gossip because like, who knows what's actually going on and who said what and blah, blah, blah. But nobody should be stealing things from their former employer. Nobody. Obvious. You're just not allowed. It's just obvious. These people are very, very smart and they're very successful.

40:32Jason Calacanis:And, you know, that's why OpenAI probably wanted them. And that's why they wanted them, you know, and you come to them with the collective wisdom of what you've accumulated. And I think that's sufficient. You don't need to, especially as a senior person, do this. So I just hope that this stuff isn't true, because I think, I don't think that Sam or Sarah, anybody else there are trying to induce this to happen. I don't think so. Yeah, I doubt they induced it, but I do believe that it's true or Apple wouldn't have brought it. Sachs, when we look at this, maybe you could open the aperture here if you want, or you can just go very detailed.

41:07But the nature of we have a free market, we don't have non-competes in California, generally speaking. You can just deploy them at will, go where you want. But we have had instances, you know, Waymo famously, you know, brought some IP to Uber when they did. Travis and the team said, leave the building. Your job is rescinded. You don't get to bring that information here. In this case, it seems maybe they didn't induce it, but it occurred for some period of time. So take us through big picture, what you think is going on here and what it means for the industry. Well, like Jamal said, I have no idea what's going on here.

41:48I mean, this is a lawsuit. The facts are all alleged. We don't know. It's going to be adjudicated. So I really don't want to opine on what happened here. But if people want to know a very simple rule of thumb for how to avoid these types of disputes, it's just when an employee leaves their previous company and joins the new company, just don't take anything with you. The only thing you can bring to your new job is what's in your head. Your memories. Your memories. That's fine. Whatever's in your head, you're allowed to take. But never leave with anything else. No thumb drives. No CD drives. No documents, no nothing.

42:24Just what's in your head is okay. Zip, zelch, nada. But that's it. Freeberg, any thoughts here on just the number of lawsuits that seem to be piling up over at OpenAI? Bad luck? A couple dots make a line, I guess. Okay, there you go. Very well said. A couple of dots make a line. Okay, SpaceX had a data leak this week. They launched GrokBuild in public beta at the end of May. The newest coding model, Grok 4.5, powers GrokBuild. I've been playing with it. It's extraordinary. It's a coding tool that works inside of Cursor. SpaceX previously told users, Shamath, nothing from your code base is transmitted to XAI servers during a session.

43:10But what actually was happening is every time a developer, according to reports, used GrokBuild, the tool was sending their entire code base to SpaceX cloud servers without alerting the users. Not just the files that were needed to do that specific coding task, just everything. Passwords, API keys could have got pulled up there, all the change logs, etc. The privacy setting was supposed to stop this, but it didn't work. SpaceX quietly disabled the upload on July 13th by flipping a switch on their servers. Elon Musk, friend of the pod, promised on X that all previously uploaded data has been deleted, I guess.

43:47And in response, SpaceX open source rock build, that's their harness. So that's another open source win or win for the open source community and AI sovereignty. Got any kind of thoughts on this? Obviously, this was not intentional, but trust is important with these models as we've been talking about for the last couple of months

44:08Jason Calacanis:here on the all in podcast i would actually connect this to my comments on cnbc earlier this week which built on top of alex carp's comments the week before privacy in ai is very fragile and it's very brittle and this is despite the best efforts of great businesses like you know Now, you may not like Elon for personality quirks, but he is incredibly trustworthy. He's overly transparent. And so to their credit, they shut it off immediately. But my takeaway is that there are all kinds of non-obvious data leak vectors lurking in AI. And so if you think that you're going to flip a ZDR switch, zero data retention, which is the magic term that the industry uses to tell you that everything's going to be okay.

45:04Jason Calacanis:I think the answer and the message should be it's not going to be okay, because you can't guarantee any of it. So the model companies, when they give you these zero data retention policies are probably trying their best. But I think the reality is you are leaking information, where you don't know it. And they despite their best efforts may still have trap doors that they don't even know about until it's figured out by somebody else, like in this example. So all of this speaks to you have to have a stratified ecosystem, you have to have third parties. Now, look, that's very biased for me, because it's in part what we do for large enterprises at 8090 when we implement our software factory.

45:41Jason Calacanis:But the reason why it's working so well is this exact reason you need an independent third party layer to interface to these models to manage this exposure, because there are trap doors everywhere. And that's what Sasha just said in a really interesting blog post. Do you guys see that? Yeah, I thought that was. The reverse information paradox? Yeah. That's exactly the takeaway that he left with. He was building on Alex Karp's supposed crash out, the point that Karp made about how enterprises who have technical ability want control over their compute, models, weights, data, and alpha. But he went further with that idea.

46:21He started with Karp's idea, but then he provided a recipe or roadmap for how enterprises should operationalize that. And what he says is that enterprises, they have to establish a real trust boundary with private evals, proprietary learning loops inside the tenant, decoupled orchestration, and the explicit right to fine tune their own outputs. So he kind of goes through a litany of fairly technical things that enterprises should do in order to achieve the operational control that CARP was saying that enterprises really want over their AI compute models and data, their alpha. So it's really interesting.

47:01I think now there's a virtual, almost like college dorm session going on between the leaders of these companies who are brainstorming some of these concepts and now extending them. And what's happening is you're starting to see the formation of not really an alliance, but like an ecosystem that is trying to create alternatives to, you know, a monolithic closed model stack, which is where Anthropic and to some extent, OpenAI want to go, is they want you to be locked in to their stack, right? Their models, their harness, they control the data, you know, all of that. And now you're starting to see all these different companies.

47:41Jason Calacanis:And you pay a huge premium for the privilege for them to do it, which is even more insane. So I saw this data, and Nick, maybe you can find this companion clip. The companion clip I'd like you to find is Eric Glyman, who's the CEO of Ramp, was on Squawk Box, I think, today talking about a new feature where you can manage the token maxing of your employees through your Ramp card. But the data that I saw was that a million tokens on Fable is about SAC's 56 bucks. A million from Sol is about 26 bucks, which is the same as Cloud4A. A million input tokens on Grok is about$1.50. Okay. Zux is about$1.50.

48:27Jason Calacanis:Elon's about$1. And the Chinese models are 50 cents. Wow. So on top of the whole data sovereignty, bleeding your alpha away, can you imagine that you're paying 56 bucks as well per million input tokens for that risk? That is insanity. I'm using Perplexity Computer, and they started supporting Grok, and they already support GLM-5 too. So when you're using Claude or OpenAI, you can only use their model. So I started effing with the different models, and I gave it all the same, basically, PRD. And I said, I want to make a podcast player that deep links. So if we were talking about, I don't know, Mythos, it would play me all the Mythos clips across all the different tech and business podcasts, but make it into one stream.

49:09And I was like, this would be really helpful for me for prepping for the show and just be interesting. I did it. It took a couple of hours. It cost$11 on the new Grok. It was hilarious how cheap it was. And then adding to this, I don't know if you saw.

49:26Jason Calacanis:Sorry, did you try to do it on Fable to see how much more expensive it would have been? I didn't. I didn't because I was out of Fable credits on my$200 account. So, you know, look at this clip here, Nick, play the clip from Eric Glenn. That's kind of interesting. We're thrilled to be launching token spend management today. It's available to Ramp and non-Ramp customers. And he's exactly right. Over the last year, I looked at the stats this morning. token spend among Ramp customers has grown by 21 times. 21 times. 21 times. Not 21 percent. We're talking about 21 times. That's exactly right. So being off by a few pennies as a CFO actually might be quite nice.

50:03At the rate it's going, it might be several dollars. And look, I think that for many CFOs, they're often very surprised by the bill because what the AI companies have functionally set up is you have a tab. You can spend as much as you want. It's very hard for CFOs to see proactively what people are spending on. And every time they're introducing new models, the rates often go up. And so there's very misaligned incentives. So part of what we're trying to do is make it easy for CFOs to see the spend, understand the spend and control it.

50:32Jason Calacanis:Thanks, Nick. He's saying something so important there, because if your engineers are going off randomly in an unguided system and then just ripping through a million tokens at 56 bucks, what he's talking about is the eventual downstream impact to earnings. And that eventually a bunch of these public market CFOs are going to show up to Wall Street, and they will have missed earnings because their effects at some point, if things are 21 xing every few months, somebody's going to miss a quarter. I don't know who, but somebody. And it's not just going to be, you know, I was speculating, it'll be a few pennies here or there, which they'll have to say is because of token spend.

51:12Jason Calacanis:He's saying it could be as much as dollars at this rate, which also could be the case. I think the point that we're all trying to make is unless you get a control of this and you can directly say how much money you're making, this is a bridge to know it. It is a money burning furnace. The good news is this is all creating a massive market opportunity, Sax. BitTensor subnets, GLM52 hosting, Grok 4.5. Now that - Inkling, Inkling, Mira Morati's new model. Mira's Inkling. Everybody's now saying, hey, wait a second, I can give you a better deal. You're paying two bucks, I can get you one buck. This is - No, no, people are paying between 26 and 56 bucks.

51:53Jason Calacanis:They should be paying 50 cents. Exactly. Well, you know - The Inkling announcement was kind of interesting because I think the value prop there is she's explicitly saying that, look, we're not frontier intelligence. We're just under that. But we're a platform for fine-tuning these open models, which are much, much cheaper, and then you can achieve the result you want based on fine-tuning. And so that's really interesting. Yeah. But, you know, these open models won't be around for very long if Anthropic has its way. There's a reason they want to stop it. It's just they have such a monopoly. Of course, you're selling most of the product for 50 cents per million tokens when they're selling theirs for 56 bucks.

52:38Jason Calacanis:Of course, you don't want that to happen. Of course, you want to try to stop it. But that being said, they're still growing like crazy, just to be clear. I mean, you are seeing this explosion of interesting things happening with open models. Like you said, the latest Grok build is open, thinking machines open, and so forth and so on. But still, they're growing. They're still the industry leader in terms of revenue growth. So these things are happening side by side. I think that the interesting thing is Eric would not have released this ramp product unless CFOs were like, I can't control the spend.

53:12Yes.

53:12Jason Calacanis:And then he's like, well, here, let me build it for you. And then if enough CFOs, essentially turn that feature on and start to rate limit how it's spent, because maybe they're not getting the ROI and the engineer doesn't care about ROI. The engineer is like, I want to use the latest, greatest model. Yeah. And maybe you don't need it. Maybe mirror is right. And for 95 % of the tasks, you should be at one level lower, especially when it costs one 100th of the cost. But the engineer will never make that trade off because they'll never want to think about it. You're right. And also, they're not tied to the money.

53:44Jason Calacanis:The CFO is tied to the money, and the engineer wants to go on an exploration on using the latest, greatest thing. Yeah. And until those two things have a reckoning. If you're booking your travel, you don't even see the price. You're like, yeah, just put me in business class, put me in a nice hotel, and the travel department handles that. You're saying something really interesting. What percentage, if you had to guess, of Fable 5 prompts are just average machigana that should be running on - 98%. Yeah. 98%. I was using it for stupid stuff that I could be using Quinn for. I think this is my micro prediction here.

54:18Mark Gurman, who's like the most in the know guy when it comes to Apple, he says, and we've got this new CEO coming in for Apple. Yeah. And he is a hardware engineer. M7 Ultra, because we're on M5 chips now. You can get like, you know, 256, 512 gigs of RAM. He says M7 Ultra is going to support as much as 1.5 terabytes. That's double what they're already supporting. So if you think about frontier models, like the last generation, this is like an opus level model running on your Mac Studio. You guys all use Mac Studios, you're rich venture capitalists, whatever. You're like, yeah, I'll take a$4 ,000 or$5 ,000 computer.

55:02This is going to change everything. You're going to have employers go, oh, I can just run 90 % of my workloads, 99 % of the workloads on the local Mac studio. I think Apple is a screaming buy right now. And it's not financial advice, but my lord, that company could just run the table on AI if they get this right. All right. Apple? Yes. Because they're going to make such a fortune. You got to just let them move on, Sachs. No, no, I'll tell you, let me explain. It's just like the iPhone. Everybody laughed at the iPhone. People overpaid. No, we really did. Nobody laughed at it. They did not. We really did.

55:38When the first iPhone came out, many people laughed at it. Steve Ballmer did. That was it. That's true. Steve Ballmer was the big one. I can still hear him laughing. No, if you think about how they make money off of hardware, off of their devices, they will put so much downward pressure on Claude and OpenAI by just putting local models and supporting them with this memory architecture. It's going to be wild when people have unlimited tokens on their desk. I don't know. I don't know if you guys saw this, but there's a very large solar company called Sunrun.

56:12Jason Calacanis:They just announced this week that they're making distributed data center blocks that you can put in your house. Another company that did it is a company called Span that partnered with NVIDIA. So to your point, Jason, you're seeing this fragmentation and distribution of edge compute. which I think is a theme. Definitely a theme. Well, it's also chasing energy, right, Chamath? Like if you've got some solar, if you've got excess battery power, hey, we power up your batteries at night cheaply. I think I told you this last week. We are so massively short electrons. By 2050, the United States of America will be two and a half California's worth of energy in deficit.

56:51Jason Calacanis:2.5 California's, the fourth largest economy in the world. We will be short 2.5X of all of the energy consumed by California by 2050. This week, there was an auction by this huge utility called PGM, which serves Pennsylvania, New Jersey, Maryland, you know, 13 states. And that auction is where they publish a forward curve and say, Hey, listen, guys, here's my forecasted load. And here's how much energy I need. And people signed up to essentially get paid a guaranteed rate every day so that they have to fork over the energy in the future, kind of like a forward option. They needed like seven or eight gigawatts.

57:33Jason Calacanis:They had 156 megawatts or something show up. We are in such a bad place right now on electrons and electricity prices. Did you see what our boy did this week? We need, we need. So this is behind the meter, which is different. And he, he, Elon needed to do this, by the way, just so you know, because there was an issue in Memphis where he was very clever about how he was able to get Colossus off the ground. That regulatory arm. Explain this. It's not, well, look, when you try to power a data center, typically you have what's called grid power. So you go to the utility in the area and you say, hey, please run me a line off of that main transmission line.

58:14Jason Calacanis:And that's how you power your data center. When that runs out or is so backlogged, you have to do what's called behind the meter, which means on your own property that you own, you build something for yourself. Now there's a problem with that you would think well that's smart yes but like in everything in America there's regulation on top of regulation on top of regulation and one of the most complicated regulatory schemes that you have to overcome is clean air permitting. So even if you say you're going to do behind the meter then you're like well what can I do solar you can do but it takes too much space for most places.

58:54Jason Calacanis:Batteries you can do but you need to generate the electricity in the first place so people use that gas so elon cleverly bought a ton of 18 wheeler like engines basically he bought the company that makes all this and provides turbines mobile turbines and then just and then just you know pin them to the ground and ran it and you know those are personal use essentially and so they came under the clean air permitting requirements but then when you act as a block you could make the claim that it doesn't. Now there are new solutions like bloom energy, which allows you to have huge installations and still fall under the the the personal use clean air permit.

59:35Jason Calacanis:And so for all of Elon's future capacity, he needed to have this in place so that he gets the clean air permits, and he's able to have a clean run of sight to continue to build domestic data centers. Anyways, there's your little TED talk on energy, but we are in a bad place, guys, And it's only getting worse. Speaking of data center sacks, everybody's favorite socialist governor, Kathy Hochul in the great state of New York, my hometown. Powered by fossil fuels, they drive up our carbon footprint. They occupy massive amounts of land, potentially displacing agricultural space and open spaces. The bottom line is progress shouldn't arise from a higher utility bill, deleted water supply, or noise pollution.

1:00:22So we have no choice but to address these challenges created by these massive facilities. That is why today I'll be signing the nation's first ever statewide moratorium on hyperscale data centers. Everything she's saying there is a false accusation on the data center. So let's just go one by one. So she's saying that they eat up all of the power. Well, yeah, I mean, look, if you connect to the grid without producing more power and you force data centers to compete with residential rate payers, then yeah, you could drive up utility prices. However, if you do what Chamas said and let them build behind the meter, then they bring their own power.

1:01:03And that's what the president has advocated for since the beginning of his administration is let the AI companies become power companies. So that is the way to solve the energy problem or the utility problem. Then she's talking about eating up land. The reality is these data centers are a model of land use efficiency. We have a ton of land in this country, obviously. You can find places where there is enough open land to build a data center. The economic impact and value of a data center relative to the land use, again, is one of the best ROIs there is. The supposed noise pollution, that's largely made up.

1:01:38That can be dealt with. You obviously don't want to put these things right next to a residential area, but create a little bit of distance and it's fine. The whole water consumption thing is largely a hoax. The modern data centers recirculate the water. Closed loop systems. Yeah, and I think there was a study that showed that a typical data center uses the same amount of water as two and a half In-N-Out burgers. So In-N-Out burger chains. I mean, just go after the almonds if you're concerned about water, please. Yeah, or golf courses. I mean, there's many uses of water that are way more wasteful.

1:02:13So when you compare economic impact to all these different things, data centers are honestly one of the best things we could be building as a nation.

1:02:21Jason Calacanis:And Sachs, there's all these taxes and incremental revenues. Did you see the article where, I think it was in North Dakota or something, where teachers were getting$30 ,000 and$40 ,000 bonuses from all the tax revenue that was coming in? There's all these upsides. That's right. They generate a lot of tax revenue. They've created a blue-collar construction boom. It's not true that there's no jobs once they're built, that you do have ongoing jobs there. And then, oh, one final thing, just on the point that Hochul is making, she said it created a lot of pollution. Natural gas, which is how most of these data centers are powered, is one of the most clean-burning sources of power that we have.

1:03:00100%. These data centers have become the scapegoat for all the angst that people have about AI. And it's kind of become this very clumsy way of trying to throw a wrench in the gears of innovation and just kind of slow the whole thing down. All I have to say is welcome to Texas. We got plenty of land here. And what's so stupid about her proposal and her talk, aside from the things she got completely factually incorrect is new york state is like 80 underdeveloped drive upstate folks you're thinking of new york city yes new york city's packed you go upstate it's literally 70 to 80 percent of the land in new york state is undeveloped there's so much land it's ridiculous new york is giant it's giant on this topic this week i just want to give a shout out to senator

1:03:54Jason Calacanis:Dave McCormick. He had a defense and innovation summit in Carlisle, Pennsylvania at the Army War College, which a bunch of us went to POTUS came gave a speech, had a CEO roundtable, a lot of defense companies, CEOs, etc. But Chris Wright was there, Sachs, and my guy. He's great. And Chris mentioned this insane story. He said, you know, there is a lot of common funding because Dina Powell asked this question on stage. And he said, there's a lot of common funding patterns of these people that are protesting the data centers. And he said, you can actually trace it back to the same people that in a different era were protesting fracking.

1:04:39Jason Calacanis:And so he was saying like, these are all just hobby horses that they use to raise money, have a job, they're like professionally paid protesters, they kind of just show up out of nowhere. I didn't realize that there was such a commonality, but they're the same people. The thing that I just can't understand for the life of me is why Anthropic is still funding these groups that want to put the kibosh on new data center construction. There's one called Public First, where Dario just gave his first seven figure contribution, and then a bunch of other employees at Anthropic gave it. And all these groups are trying to slow down AI development with new regulations and making it harder to build new data centers.

1:05:17And at a certain point, you just have to wonder, I mean, is this regulatory capture or have they just kind of lost the plot? Because the number one thing slowing down the growth of anthropics revenue, it's not demand. I think it's the availability of compute and data centers. And so you're just kind of wondering, like, what is the point of all of this?

1:05:37Jason Calacanis:It's so true. I was talking to someone in politics about this and the theory that they had is, well, the Democrats aren't going to pause the data centers forever. They're going to pause them until they feel like they're in enough control that they can dictate all of the rules. And so, in other words, they're calling this a moratorium. And I think it does mean that the data centers are going to stop, but eventually they're going to be in a position to say, okay, here are our terms if you want to turn these things back on, right? You want to lift the moratorium. And then that's when we get this big government, Democrat-defined AI regime, and you know that it's going to consist of a new regulatory agency, a new speech controls, a whole trust and safety agenda from social media will be ported over.

1:06:23However, this was this one person I was talking to. This is what he was speculating is a real agenda is that eventually once Trump is no longer president or in some future Democratic administration, they will eventually lift the moratorium, but on their terms. Now, I think that's a really dangerous thing to do because, you know, Trump is president for another two years and then no one knows what's going to happen after that. and even if you lift the moratorium in say two and a half or three years it's going to take a couple of years for those projects to even ramp back up so when you start talking about a moratorium on data centers it's not like a few month pause it's probably a good five years at least before you know you can get another data center switched on in the state of new york just so you know how

1:07:10Jason Calacanis:bad it's gotten. There's a curve that you can use to price data center assets. And I think you guys know this, but I have this portfolio of these assets that myself and my partner, Anita, have accumulated. And what's so interesting is when we talk to all of the hyperscalers about giving us a price, because we're trying to figure out whether we should keep it or build it or just sell it. The most incredible thing is how extreme the price is at the front end of the curve when you have verifiable, energizable power today. And the reason is exactly everything that you're saying, which is that when you look out into the future, you know, we've said this before, but it's about 40 % of all these projects are getting mothballed and stopped.

1:07:54Jason Calacanis:And so it's creating this massive deficit of available energy to actually drive the use of AI. So to the extent that you actually want, you know, drug discovery, or you want cancer diagnoses, or you want better healthcare or better legal advice, we may actually not be able to service it based on all of the demand that exists because the power isn't there, the energy isn't there. And the reason why that's not there is because folks are just kind of reflexively protesting something that they don't completely understand clearly. So I think it's a really big problem. I mean, we're going to have GPUs chasing energy.

1:08:30Like, where's their energy? And just drive the GPUs there is what's going to happen, right? Let me add one layer to it, which is they're not only trying to stop data centers from being built in the US, they're trying to stop data centers from being built internationally in our friends, allies, and partner countries. And the way they're doing that is the same political forces that are stopping data centers are also behind all these new export controls on chips. So they want to make it harder and harder to export chips to more and more countries, including our friends and allies. And so there's not going to be data centers here.

1:09:01There's not going to be data centers in our allies. I mean, where are we going to put these things? Yeah, and some of those allies have unlimited energy, Middle East.

1:09:09Jason Calacanis:Like, if you want some data centers. Well, what's funny, Jason, is, you know, we did a bunch of Middle East data center stuff, and then it's kind of stopped. Meaning, like, there wasn't this growth that I thought would happen because it's a very conveniently placed geography. It's the Middle East for a reason. And so, you know, you can serve 4 billion people very quickly in under 200 milliseconds from there. Instead, what happened was there was this explosion in Asia, and specifically in Australia, which kind of surprised me because I would have thought that those folks are a little bit even further out on the DSA, you know, far left, I thought these things would not have happened, but they were able to get big deals done.

1:09:48Jason Calacanis:So in this weird way, you have all of these other countries kind of running to try to embrace this stuff quickly. They've done a decent job. They're doing stuff to sort of like displace some of the energy that is needed in the US. But the problem is we need to have enough surplus here, because this is where most of the commerce is going to get created that really that I think these are luxury regulations like you can afford if you're New York State or California to be like, you know what, we don't need this. It's a luxury for us to have an extra data center. If you're in Australia, you might really need the money.

1:10:21If you're Texas, you might really want the money. So this is what's crazy.

1:10:25Jason Calacanis:Like virtue signaling only goes so far until your debt to GDP is high enough and or your productivity is low enough and or your foreign direct investment is low enough where you're like, all right, you know what? Screw all that. We're just going to build a data center. But the other thing is, if you saw what happened this week, the UAE now is able to import the best in class leading chips. And so to your point, Jason, I think it restarts the cycle where you have to look very carefully at the Middle East because it's a very attractive place to build these things. And by the way, I don't know if you saw the, even if you think about fiber and the milliseconds as you're talking about, yes, you can get to the 4 billion people.

1:11:00But I don't know if you saw the giant Starlink versions now. They make like a really big version. I think it's actually got like one of the enterprise versions, but there's like an even bigger enterprise version. and they can bundle them together and you're starting to get to like 10 gig 20 gig setups so that means you can start putting these things almost anywhere yeah which gets also like can i

1:11:21Jason Calacanis:can we see your clip the thing that you were mentioning before this is not to your point as prevalent in the middle east where you have monarchies and governments that aren't ruled by democracy, but in democracies, we see this anti-data center movement taking hold. This chart is something that, for me, always kind of played a role in my understanding of where the incredible anti-GMO sentiment came about in the United States. This is great. Russia Today, this Russian media outlet launched in the U.S. in 2010. They were kicked out of the U.S. by Biden in 2022. too. And you can see that prior to Russia today existing in the US, there was no anti GMO sentiment GMOs were around since 1996.

1:12:09That's when they first had their big commercial launch in the US and were pretty prevalent for, you know, 14 plus years, before everyone started to think GMOs are bad, we got to get rid of GMOs. And you could ask people 100 different ways, very pointedly and specifically about the facts on the matter and the science of GMOs and all this sort of stuff. but everyone always had a reason why they didn't want them similar to what we're hearing now with AI and data centers and it turns out that if you track back all of the media that had all this anti-gmo sentiment that ultimately got picked up by the mom bloggers that ultimately got put into social media feeds that ultimately everyone just accepted as truth a lot of it originated in this russian media push that happened around this era and you can actually see this on the google trend data that shows GMO and its kind of write-up.

1:12:56And then as Russia Today started to get cut by different media outlets and people stopped retweeting them and stopped reflecting them and stopped writing articles that followed Russia Today, the anti-GMO sentiment declined in the US. And I think you can see this going back decades. You know, there's this effort that the KGB kind of designed during the Cold War called Directed Measures, which was really meant to try and create an influence campaign through affecting media. So putting this kind of propaganda out through foreign media, particularly targeted Western democracies. And, you know, you could argue that maybe you could trace back what happened in Germany with nuclear energy as being kind of similarly originated.

1:13:37But there have been a series of these pushes that seem nonsensical if you're fairly rational and can have an actually objective debate about the scientific merit, the economic merit, the benefits of these technologies. But for some reason, what we call the activist community become heightened to them, say that we've got to get rid of them. And everyone's got these different unfounded, scientifically unfounded reasons why they want to get rid of them. And you're like, wait a second, how did we end up in this place that we're literally handicapping ourselves? And I think we're seeing something similar happening with data centers in the US today.

1:14:10the funding of the NGOs as they're being called, the media that's supporting this, the retweeting of the media. And then you ask people, there was a poll that came out today, something north of 50 % of Americans believe that data centers increase the cost of water and electricity. Even if the data center is fully recycling the water, and they're producing their own electricity, there's still this kind of repugnant reaction to the data center. And so there has been this like deeply sewn psychological shift that's happened in the United States. And, you know, people have these, well, I hate the rich, I hate tech, I hate AI, I don't want any of this stuff.

1:14:45I don't want any of this stuff. But where's it all come from? I do worry that there's some degree of kind of call it foreign, you know, influence. Influence, I don't love the word influence because everyone captures it up, but there is some degree of this. I would say there's foreign interest. Let's call it that. No, I think it's more than that. Just one month ago, OpenAI published a blog post called PRC-linked influence operations are targeting AI debates in the U.S. And Politico covered this and a lot of other sites covered this. Basically, what they are saying, and in fact, many people are saying, is that China is behind a lot of these influence campaigns to shape U.S.

1:15:29attitudes on AI data centers. It makes sense.

1:15:32Jason Calacanis:It makes a lot of sense for China to do this. Yeah, and there's going to be a congressional investigation of this. It does make sense because it is in their interest, right? Yeah. If they can stop us from building this necessary infrastructure, then that's a way for China to win the AI race. if they can convolute the market if they can incentivize anthropic to you know pull the ladder up if they can kill open source in the united states and constrain demand or the optionality and choice of lower cheaper models think about that for a second at 56 dollars per million input tokens i mean versus 50 cents for the rest of the world all of a sudden it doesn't take a company that's much, much worse than you to beat you when your cost is 50 to 100x more.

1:16:18Right. That's just the math.

1:16:20Jason Calacanis:The math ain't mapping. You know, it's Sacha made the point that these enterprises are not just paying for AI with money. They're paying again, by feeding those frontier models or proprietary knowledge, right and all their their alpha so it's like a double whammy it's like it's more expensive and you're potentially mortgaging your future look let's be honest it is obvious where foreign governments have an enormous incentive to try to manipulate and influence the comings and goings in america i think we should just acknowledge that the idea that that doesn't happen is very naive now the question is we have to be able to call it out and put our finger on it because otherwise, what is clearly happening is that there's a lot of Americans that will just fall for this and they will not think from first principles.

1:17:08We have a huge moral panic going on with respect to AI. Look, when you talk about catastrophes that could result from AI, what are we talking about? We're talking about things that might happen in the future. Nothing resembling this has happened yet. Even the cyber risks that everyone's been talking about. Job loss. Or job loss. It's like none of it's turned out to be true. We haven't seen any of it so far, But we're on the threshold, I think, of destroying the crown jewel of our economy, which is the system of free market innovation that we have, this culture of rapid iteration of anyone with a good idea can go raise risk capital and start their idea, start their company.

1:17:46And we're on the verge. Now we're talking about how far the Overton window has moved where we're actually saying that creating a FINRA for our industry might be better than all the alternatives. FINRA is a bunch of stockbrokers writing rules. And when's the last time there was ever any innovation in that sector? I mean, I guess Robinhood made trading free. That was it, right? Yeah, that was a big one. Yeah, that was it. Okay. But that's not real innovation, okay? That's like an innovation with respect to a pricing model. And we're actually saying that that might be the least bad alternative is having the equivalent of a bunch of stockbrokers creating new rules that all these AI companies are not going to have to abide by.

1:18:27It's crazy. We are going to throw away the lead that we have in this. And by the way, Kimmy K3 just came out and people are saying it's now right up there. It's very, very close to the frontier. We may have months on China if that. And we're going to create all these crazy rules and new regulatory bodies for risks that have not manifested yet. It's worth monitoring the situation, but it's not worth panicking. Like you should monitor the situation with self-driving cars and job loss. China is certainly doing that. They just stopped giving out permits for self-driving cars as an example because it's going so well and they're losing jobs.

1:19:03And there are people who are getting – there's a little civil unrest. So they just said we're going to make self-driving cars licensed. And so they're not giving out any more moratorium on license for now. It's worth watching Mythos and if it could hack your system. Palo Alto Network is checking it out. Other people checking it. It's all worth monitoring. But, yes, there's no disaster here today because of AI. Nothing is jumping out of your chat GPT window. You know, the worst case scenario is you blow out some tokens, you know? Okay, great. That's the biggest. There's only a handful of companies that are even at the frontier, and they all have safety testing and red teaming and all the rest of it.

1:19:39They're doing a good job. Yeah. They're doing a good job. Stop that. I'm just questioning whether we need some vast regulatory apparatus now to start doing all this rulemaking. It's certainly premature, and we did this because of science fiction and Dario saying all jobs are going away. I mean, that was the most ridiculous thing. When he said he's panicked that it's going to be 80 % or 90 % jobs in 2026, what was his claim? Nick, get the exact claim. I think he said 50 % of jobs, right? He said 50 % of entry-level knowledge worker jobs are going away within one to five years. That was one year ago.

1:20:13It's a little ridiculous, yeah. I mean, people don't even know how to use the tools yet. He's been in a state of panic since GPT-2. Yes, yes. I remember they wanted to have regulatory approval for models that use 10 to the 25th flops, right? And every single AI model is like well past that threshold now. And we haven't seen any of the harm. Look, they thought that 10 to the 25th flops would be enough compute to create the Terminator, to create Skynet. No offense, Freeberg, but one guy's panic attacks, one guy's anxiety condition, might have shaped the whole course of history here. Like, does Dario have, like, I'm not making light of it, but does he have an anxiety issue where he's, like, overly concerned about this stuff?

1:21:01Or is it just dilutions of grandeur? Come on the pod, Dario. Invite's open. Come hang out with the boys. I'm sure he'd love to come on the pod after you just accused him of having a panic attack. I mean, he seems like he's in a perpetual one. No, let me tell you. Listen, it could be psychological, but I actually think that there's a strategy that makes a lot of sense, and it's a very simple, straightforward strategy. Number one, brand yourself as a safe AI company. Number two, ban unsafe AI. Three, profit. Yeah, there you go. That's the strategy. Kind of brilliant. All right, everybody. Go to allin.com slash events and sign up for the All In Summit in September.

1:21:40Scholarships are open. Let's do a quick, amazing, deep, robust science corner with our boy, David Friedberg. Before we get into the science corner, I'm going to give a shout out to Ronnie. dog for adoption. I love family dog rescue in Sonoma. Check out his Instagram link. God, here he goes again. In the description. This dog needs a home. He was fostered and he lost the foster home. Someone come and grab him. He's awesome. All right, let's get into science. This is what we're doing now. This is what we're doing. He's trying to get more cue points.

1:22:11Jason Calacanis:That dog looks delicious. Gross. Dog carpaccio. You don't live in Sri Lanka anymore, Chamath. Yeah, seriously. Oh, Sri Lanka taking a spray. Oh my God. How do you marinate that dog in Sri Lanka? Do what you got to do in Sri Lanka. Is it just salt and pepper, Freeburg, or do you like something else? You know, just a little salt and pepper? Wild flour marinade. Do you use Beaujolais? Nouveau? Oh, do you like a little yogurt and garam masala? Maybe do a little tikka dos? Spicy. Do you guys want to talk about reversing aging? Yes, I want to talk about, but I got to drop. All right, guys. I got to go to the Apple Tower, Paul.

1:22:49Paul, Paul, Paul. I'll cover it. but the audience will stick around. Science Corner. All right, so, Jamal, you can drop two if you want. I'll cover Science Corner solo. So in the past, we've talked about Yamanaka factors, which are these proteins that can go into cells and reverse the aging of the cell, and the cell starts to act young again. Pretty amazing. And there's a lot of advancement happening on that front. But this paper that came out just this week that everyone's kind of going crazy about was put out jointly by Calico, which is Google's kind of, you know, age reversal startup that's super secretive that they're not allowed to talk about in partnership with a group called Revel Pharma.

1:23:27And what they focused on was what's called the extracellular matrix, the parts outside of the cell that age. And what does aging actually look like outside of the cell? Well, over time, sugars and fats bind to proteins in the area between our cells, and they accumulate, and they don't get cleaned off. And as they accumulate and they don't get cleaned off, they make it harder for your body to clean out that area, to maintain that area. It causes stickiness. It causes binding. And that reduces mobility and ultimately leads to things like wrinkles in our skin. Is that visceral fat?

1:24:01Jason Calacanis:Is that what visceral fat is? No, it's called glycation. And so it's the binding of sugar and fat to the proteins that sit in that extracellular... In between the cells. In between the cells, exactly. And so it's that whole gunky area in between the cells that when you're young, works well, everything's smooth, the proteins get replaced if they break down. And as you get older, sugars and fats kind of stick to these proteins, block them up. And as they get blocked up, your body can't repair them, it can't clean them. And more importantly, it changes the structure and the shape of those proteins.

1:24:34So things like collagen that are far apart stick together. And that causes things like wrinkles, and that causes immobility. and it also causes inflammation because then those proteins kind of look different than they're supposed to and your body starts to attack them and that activates inflammation and that's why we get, one of the reasons why we get more and more inflammation as we get older. And so one of the key, what are called advanced glycation end products, that's the term for these things, is called CML. CML is kind of the predominant molecule that gets formed in this extracellular matrix that's driving aging and nothing breaks it down.

1:25:11So these scientists set out to try and create an enzyme. An enzyme is a protein that breaks something down that can break down CML. And remember, a protein is just a series of amino acids, and those amino acids are programmed by DNA. So you can put three letters of DNA to make an amino acid. So you can literally just print DNA and then put it in a bacteria to print proteins and then test those proteins to see what they do. That's the modern kind of era of kind of protein synthesis and protein testing. And so these guys kind of went out and they took the target, which is CML and tried to figure out, okay, how do we actually degrade CML, clear that extracellular matrix and reverse aging.

1:25:49And they started with alpha fold. And they used alpha fold to find a protein that could bind to CML and activate an enzymatic or process that would break it down. And then they took that protein from alpha fold that comes out of a bacteria, they produced it, they started to test it. And then they started to find some of the binders or the parts of that protein that they could make better and they use, you know, DNA programming to change it. And they made hundreds and then 1000s of variants of it to measure activity, which is how good is it at breaking down the CML. And they did this recursively, five different cycles.

1:26:23And then eventually they tested it once they kind of gotten it breaking down the CML really well in a test tube, they started to test it on the proteins that we would find in our body, casein collagen retinal proteins which are in your eye hemoglobin and they were able to get rid of 52 to 97 percent of the cml just degraded away and then they um they found several sites where they were able to degrade over 90 percent and then they took actual human skin from elderly patients that had donated their skin and they put this enzyme onto that skin and they were able to eliminate 55 % of the CML on the skin, which basically reversed the skin's age down to the age of a 31-year-old.

1:27:10This is from greater than 70-year-old patients, just by putting this enzyme on the skin. And so it's kind of a groundbreaking demonstration of combination of alpha-fold, what's called directed evolution, where you change the order of the DNA that changes the structure of the protein to test different proteins, do high throughput screening, and ultimately make a novel protein that doesn't exist in nature today that can do something pretty profound for human health. And now the next set of questions is, okay, well, great. This enzyme is awesome. How are we going to get it into our bodies? How are we going to get it into that extracellular matrix?

1:27:42Is it going to be a cream? Is it going to be a shot, a supplement? Could we eventually take an RNA shot that makes the protein inside of our body and starts to do the degradation from within? A lot of questions kind of still to be answered, but it really, I think, lights a great path forward. amazing for these novel therapies that we're developing it's fucking awesome i mean dude like amazing you know all my i got all these joint pains in my hip and my shoulder now like everything you can feel yourself getting older that's all i will tell you this right now that

1:28:09Jason Calacanis:will not be the first market the first market will be cosmetic and cosmetic skin yeah it will be a trillion dollar market if you can create a queen if you could put this enzyme literally on your skin and your face as a cream yeah game over it's it's a that that alone is two trillion dollars but i mean dude ai let's just talk about applications of ai why it's actually awesome that everyone should be able to agree on and you can't be convinced by some foreign psyop this is fucking awesome i mean this was alpha full it's amazing used to discover this thing and evolve it and drive this outcome everyone can benefit from it it's just so profound that we have this pool at our disposal in this day and age i think it's pretty awesome anyway thanks for sticking around for science corner it's because i love you all right bro love you too Let your winners ride.

1:28:58Rain Man David Sack. And it said we open source it to the fans and they've just gone crazy with it. Love you, Wes. I'm queen of kinwad. I'm going all in. Let your winners ride. I'm going all in. Besties are gone. That's my dog taking a notice in your driveway. Oh, man. Oh, man. My abatasher will meet me at once.

1:29:26Jason Calacanis:We should all just get a room and just have one big huge orgy because they're all just useless. It's like this sexual tension, but they just need to release them out. Wet your feet. Wet your feet. We need to get merch. I'm doing all in.

1:29:49I'm doing all in. Thank you.