E135: Wagner rebels, SCOTUS ends AA, AI M&A, startups gone bad, spacetime warps & more

27:07You probably, I'm not even sure if you can even have a box where you can declare race, maybe you can or cannot, I don't even know. But all of that changes today. So then the question is, well, what's the first order derivative? What change is next? And I called someone who's a pretty well known constitutional Supreme Court lawyer on this. And the next step is probably going to be around athletics -based and legacy -based admissions. So athletics -based admissions are pretty obvious, which is you don't really have great grades, but you're really stupendous at a sport that's important to that school.

27:46so then they let you in because they want to compete in said sport for whatever reason. The legacy one is even more prickly which is, nah, you're kind of a dummy but your parents are rich and or went to the school before and so then they let you in as well. And his thought on this is that those things will go away because if you can't use race -based admissions to kind of balance the scales, then it'll become pretty quick where somebody launches a legacy -based lawsuit or an athletic -based bias lawsuit and wins that as well. So that's the first order derivative. So, you know, the thought, are those, because those are constitutionally protected, whereas equality based on race, but it becomes a huge headache for these schools, right?

28:38And so you're going to be fighting these admission standards, constantly changing. And so if you're not going to let, you know, a bunch of poor minority black and brown kids in, but you're letting in the sons and daughters of rich, important people, I think that that's going to paint that school in a very bad light. So I think that's important. Shema white, typically white. Typically white. Although one would say the great thing over the last couple of decades is there have been a lot of minorities that have gotten into these very elite schools, which means their kids would be the first generation that's eligible for legacy, but you're going to wipe that away.

29:17So I think from just a social stigma perspective, and I have a solution for this, which I'll get to at the end for those people. But so I think that's the first order derivative. The second order derivative is now what lawsuits get launched and what are the implications for private companies, right? So right now this affects any institution that receives federal funding, and that includes all the universities. So there's no private or public university really except for a handful that don't take this money. So they'll all have to do this. But the really important question after that will be what happens to companies like Apple or Facebook or Exxon who have race -based programs to try to attract African -American engineers or Hispanic chemists.

30:01Whatever the program is that you want to come up with, will those get challenged and will those companies have to change and my friends thoughts on that were that yes, that those would also change. And that's going to have a really important impact on private enterprise and how they approach this stuff and how DEI stuff works. And frankly, downstream, how ESG works because all these ESG check boxes now, some of them will actually become illegal, right? So I think the importance of this decision can't be really understated. It's going to the changes will be slow and then they'll be fast. They'll first touch higher ed but then I think they'll touch private enterprise and so I think it was a there's a very important decision in America that just happened.

30:46Jamal, what is what is the right ethics and values? I mean what are you guys? I guess we could just do this around the table. J -Cowd maybe you kick it off. Should we, I mean from your point of view, do you think that that values should include racial diversity in admissions and universities. Yeah, this is like the ultimate. Or is the values about equality of opportunity for everyone regardless of race, right? You're asking the exact right question, I think. That's because I'm the world's greatest moderator. But yeah, go ahead. Doing a solid job so far. And this creates a lot of cognitive dissonance for people, right?

31:22Because you really want to believe that the world is a meritocracy. And if you were to take other pursuits in the world, you'd never say like we should let race, gender, age affect people's performance in the 100 yard dash, or their compensation at a company, right? All of that should be based on achievement. And so there is a question on what achievements should be taken into account when you apply to a school. And it's pretty obvious. The legacy thing is a back door into these schools. But we want to feel like we're also making progress because listen, the world has been unfair. The world was built on slavery and our country has only 150 years past that and Civil Rights Act was what, 1964 or 65?

32:17Like we really want to see everybody achieve here. So I think you have to pause for a second and say, Well, if the goal is you want to see, you know, black Americans perform better and I think that's the underlying concern here and it is based on the legacy of America. Well, how do you do that? And I think we're looking way too far down in the educational pipeline. The solution here is really childcare. The solution here is nursery schools, pre -K, elementary school education and those things need competition and that's where people fall behind. To be looking at this at the end of the academic journey is I think crazy.

32:57So, you know, when I'm president, I'm going to have 365 day a year, you know, childcare and pre -K and that's where we should, if we really want to try to make up for some wrongs in the history of this country and try to have better outcomes, we need competition in schools, which means probably breaking some of these unions and giving people vouchers in choice. And then we have to invest more in the earliest stages of education. And I think everybody wants to see a better system here. DEI to Chimots Point is it is illegal to hire people based on race, gender, any of those criteria. Obviously. And the DEI programs are trying to fill more applicants.

33:41So they're a goal typically in the way they don't break the law is to just try to but in their best cases, find more applicants. But even that does feel like there's many times in life when people will say things in corporate America, like we have too many white guys in these positions. We cannot hire another white guy. So the reality of DEI that I've seen up close and personal when I was at AOL, I've told the story before. Somebody said to me, there's no way for us to make you an EVP. You have to stay at SVP and I said, why is that? I'm doing all this EVP level work and they said, because you're a white guy.

34:19And the entire company is white guys at EVP and we cannot add another white guy there. But we'll just give you the same bonus compensation so don't worry about it. And so there's all kinds of games being played here. But I think it's great that we're having this conversation. It's a hard conversation for America to have. I think for me, I've talked about this in the past. I've always had concern when we make the shift away from equality of opportunity to a quality of outcome. Because we all have this objective that we want to see everyone have equal rights to success in some way in the United States.

34:56The question is at what point do you move beyond opportunity? Where everyone is given an equal opportunity in this country to invest themselves in transforming their own lives versus a quality of outcome where regardless of how much you do, how much effort or your trials, you were given the same as everyone else. And that ends up looking a lot like socialism, and it's very concerning because I think it limits progress and opportunity for everyone. The real challenge with this particular topic is college admissions about outcome or is it about opportunity? It's outcome in the sense that you spend 12 years going to elementary school and high school and working hard to get yourself into college.

35:42So it's the outcome of all of that effort and some people aren't given the opportunity to have success during those 12 years. And you know, and it is an outcome. What do you think we should do? And it's an opportunity because it's about going to college, because without having a great college cycle, you may have a more tougher time getting into the workforce. force. So that is why it's a hard value question for me. I don't have a great answer on this, but I'm just pointing out it's a lot like the abortion argument where both sides have some value oriented point of view that feels like it's negating the other person's point of view.

36:19But at the end of the day, they're both coming from either this is an opportunity or it's an outcome decision and that's what makes it so challenging. The National Bureau of Economic Research did a study in 2019 that they published and what they found was that 43 % so 43 % of white students admitted to Harvard were athletes or legacy students or children of faculty and staff or had a relative that were donors to the school 43 % wait it's rigged and then they found on top of that that 75 % of white students admitted from those four categories would have been rejected if they had been treated as a normal applicant.

37:03So I think for all the people that are looking at all the black and brown kids that may not get into a place like Harvard, if you don't look at these other categories, it is a little it's a bit of a gross injustice quite honestly. So I think that these institutions have to evolve and if you're going to be forced to be meritocratic, then actually be meritocratic. And by the way, I actually am fine with legacies and donors, but I think what should happen is you should just publish a rate card and you should make it hyper transparent. And so I love it. For the rich guy who's got an idiot son or daughter, let's just be upfront and honest with everybody.

37:39It costs $50 million to get into Stanford. It costs $80 million to get into Harvard. We all know these numbers. So we should just publish them. You should pay the price and be done with it. and for Harvard and Stanford and Yale and all these schools, having an extra 10 or 20 dummies, but an extra two or three billion may be a reasonable tradeoff, but at least it would be transparent and fair. Right. This is an important free market question as well, because these are private institutions. They're privately funded, not if they take federal dollars. They're not agreed. Yes. But if they take federal dollars, they're not.

38:10And then it becomes a government processing. It's government influence. It's a state school. All those is there a separate category here, just like country clubs or any private membership club where the members of the club get to decide who they want to admit to the club. And is that un -American and should the Supreme Court and should our Constitution have a role in defining how private institutions make decisions about who gets it? No. Harvard could absolutely return all the federal funding, the billions of dollars a year they get. That's totally reasonable. They decide to just focus on legacy admits.

38:43That's totally reasonable. It's within their rights. Sacks, we got to hear. I know that I know that you used up your quote your speaking quota already. Well, yeah, I didn't want to I didn't want to But I'm gonna give him four of my give him four of my points. I will just one last Second, you get four of Jake house minutes. Go ahead. I give you four minutes. So yeah, two points I guess so on the legacy thing I agree with Jamal that we should get rid of it. It's not meritocratic I think that if they did publish a rate card that would be more honest, but there'd be two Embarrassed and ashamed to do that, but I think making that argument exposes the hypocrisy of it But I've already told my kids I'm not helping them get into college.

39:18So they're gonna have to do it on their own. And so look, I think the legacy thing is by the way, that's the best if you can give kids that perspective. Sorry, go ahead, it's sad to me. So that's that's my number one fully agreed on the legacy thing with respect to the decision itself. I thought that can I just clarify that do you believe that the legacy thing should be like in federal law? I mean, is that a government thing or do you think that that's how those institutions should behave? because those are different. I mean, I'm asking, are you suggesting that the law should be involved? That the government should be involved?

39:47I don't know if it's a legal thing because I don't know how to implement that law, but I think it's something they should stop doing one way or another. Maybe it should be a law, but I think it should stop. So I think that's point one. Well, I guess you think. For private membership. Let me just double -click on that. Do you think that should extend to private membership clubs, like country clubs as well, that they shouldn't be allowed to decide who they let in and don't let in? What makes it different that it's Harvard, is it because it's education versus any other private matter? No, because it takes federal funding.

40:14It takes tax. Okay, well, as you may know, I should not pay for some person to be able to get into a school they don't deserve to get into just because their parent went there or just because they're parallel to check. That's unreasonable. And if they don't take federal funding, these schools take so much federal funding that they're quasi public institutions, even the private ones. So that's the distinction. That's the distinction for you just to be clear. And also there is a strong meritocracy opportunity argument on this. And I think it's why that whole parents college admission scandal was such a big deal is that for a lot of people in this country, the ability to have your kids advance themselves by being the first to get into college or go into college or going to a better college.

40:59That is a big part of creating opportunity in this country. So for people to try and defraud that, I think created it, a huge backlash. So look, I think that the legacy thing needs to end one way or another. I don't know exactly what the right legal implementation is. I have two questions for the panel. Number one, should you be able to say by geography, hey, listen, we're Harvard, we want to have a representation of people from around the world. So we're going to have the top three students from each country or by population, how have you do it, mathematically coming. So a little bit of geography, because I did hear from one of these coaches that cost like six figures to get your kids into the college.

41:43They said the best thing you can do is like move to Kentucky. And then Harvard and Stanford are looking to get a certain number of students from each state. I don't know how true that is, but they said that's like one of the top ways to do it. Well, do you remember Jason just to build on your point? I don't know if you guys remember, but a few years ago, the in fashion, thing to do was to learn to play squash. And I remember all these parents telling me that and they had kids that were older than my kids and they were they were hiring full -time squash coaches because apparently squash was like, yes, so, English shots.

42:16Yeah. I think like, stop with the angle shooting guys. Yes. The gun should go off, you should run the race and your time is your time and you should go to whatever the best school is that you deserve to get into based on your academic ability. Now going back, the big problem, and I think Jason, you really nailed it on the head. Trying to fix it with affirmative action at the university is still quite unfair in the sense that there are so many black and brown kids, I think, with tons of potential that don't even get there. And so the real question is, what are you doing at the grade school and at the high school and at the preschool so that you actually get more of these kids to the starting line because fixing it when they're 18 I think is a little too late.

43:01Right? Fixing it for three, four, and five years old, that's when they deserve and need all the help in the world. Two years old. That's why we need school choice. We need charter schools. We need to break them monopoly that the unions have over the schools running it, running it for their own benefit enough. Like you know, enemy. If you define institutional racism as conditions that trap people and conditions of poverty across generations. I'd say the abysmal quality of our public schools are number one. Number one, two and three. And the reason is because there's no competition in the unions run it for their own benefit.

43:33They have to shut down these schools for in California because they didn't want to work as they're afraid of Don't know. Don't see the sea where we just got a label. God, beep it out. We're going to be. That was not for the benefit of kids and it wasn't even medically necessary. That was a benefit they saw for themselves. Yeah, Jake out you come you come from a family. Yep that were Members of unions because they worked for fire for police. Yeah, is that right? Yeah We speak negatively about the effects of the teachers unions on our public education system and it I think it's absolutely correct But how do you share the point of view from the other side if you're a teacher and you're a member of the union and the union takes care of you What's the argument?

44:17Yeah, sure. To say this union is damaging public education and the teacher that's working in the union and the member of the union says, this is necessary for my livelihood to protect me, for my benefit. Help us share the point of view. Because we all have the strongly held point of view that the unions are destroying and eroding public education. But what do you have there, sorry? People have the right to form unions. But what we all do is we are forced to be consumers of one educational product because of how we pay taxes. We pay taxes in. I think in my, in California, we each pay $16 ,000 into the educational system.

44:53And so if you're a parent, you should get that 16k back and be able to choose what you do with it. So there's competition. So the unions can have protection, but there still should be competition for these services. And I think there are two separate issues. Yeah, there's one other thing which is I just want to give a shout out to a Non -profit that I support called smash Academy smash dot org. It's done by Mitch and Freda Kapoor the Mitch Kapoor Founded Lotus 123 if you're under the age of 40 you might not know them and What they do is they realize that a lot of the students who do get into good colleges It turns out a lot of the black and brown students they get accepted and they're behind in math and And so what Smash has done is they have a three -year program and I go speak at it sometimes and I donate money to it And I encourage you to do the same they have this intensive summer program So before you go to college, Jamoth if you were one of those students You know you might get into college and then they drop out or even worse They switch from a stem to a non stem degree because they're two years behind on stem or a year behind on stem And so the corporates found this like little Opportunity to kind of catch people up and I think that's what we have to do.

46:09We have to Address this much earlier and not put a bandaid on it. Yeah, and in the system the Ivy League system You know needs to Such as Ip's right I like sure not just pick on Harvard, but it's like all the state schools Institutions which we talk about institutions. Okay, all institutions that receive federal funding They need to take a deep look in the mirror and say are we doing the best thing for us? The second question I had for the panel was, well, I'm not getting a viewing academics. But yeah, but our pure academics, the best way to accept people into a college, or should there be some blend of it, like putting sports aside, because that's an obvious one.

46:45But you know, there's academics, but then there's also creativity. You know, if you, you might be terrible on your SATs or standardized tests and you might be an incredible virtual or so pianist. So I think what is the criteria? And making that criteria fair is what we all want. And it feels tremendously unfair. My point of view is if the government is funding these schools, then the government certainly has to have a point of view on what's the reasonable model for admissions. The government's not funding the schools. I love a diversity in a marketplace. I love having different schools, having different admissions criteria that allow different people to find their path through different institutions.

47:26To your point, Juilliard does not care perhaps as much what you did on your SAT and chemistry. And art schools do not care as much how well you did in math. And STEM schools don't care whether or not you want an art competition. And I think that that's the important thing that we need to preserve. We need to preserve optionality for institutions to define what sorts of individuals they want to try and recruit and progress and frame and get ready for the workforce and the path in life that they then choose versus trying to create a cookie cutter model for what the government says it's fair for everyone.

48:07And as much as we can take government funding out of these institutions and out of these systems and give them the freedom to set their own admissions criteria and create differential educational systems, I think that's going to create the best diversity of a workforce. course. And I would kind of be more excited about that sort of an institutional system than one that is standardized by the government. You know why that will never happen? Because the profit motive of these universities is really to be shadow organizations for their endowments. And the thing with endowments is that the people that work there very much want to get paid and behave like profit generating organizations.

48:50And I think the issue is that if their sole job was to really fund the operational expenses of the university, then the endowments would be run very differently. Like, take, again, I just looked up on the internet, but Harvard has about the operating expenses are roughly $5 .5 billion a year, but the revenues are about $5 .5 billion a year. right? So if instead you had to basically fund, you know, there was essentially no revenue per se, right? There was there was very little tuition and you didn't take any federal funding. You'd have to come up with $5 billion a year. So you just basically take that as a draw from your endowment.

49:33The endowment would be run very differently. It would be a don't lose money endowment that would generate very low -volve returns. I think the problem with that is that that's not how the endowment at Harvard works. They wouldn't necessarily make risk seeking investments in things like private equity and hedge funds and venture capital into the extent they did. They would just make much, much fewer, much, much smaller or both. So I think what you're saying could be possible, but the problem are probably the endowments at these universities. Okay, we'll lift $3 billion by Harvard's endowment now.

50:08So it would be 10%. Can anyone tell me who the largest real estate owner is in San Francisco? You see I'm looking at on the internet. Oh, no, I know. I know. It's that our institute. The Academy of Art University. I knew this because they kept buying things and using them. I think she used she used all the profit over the years to buy more real estate and she accumulated the largest real estate portfolio in San Francisco. She was she the founder. I forgot her name. This is a for profit university or private for I mean a non profit university. Yeah, There's a lot of artists that come out of Academy Art and they work in a lot of different industries including industrial design Including animation Actually, what I'm saying is it like RISD or is it like actually in art school?

50:51Oh, no, it's a great art school. Yeah Academy of Art Anyway, let's keep going so look speaking of STEM making a big pivot away from part To AI couple big news items, you know the AI frenzy continues here in Silicon Valley All the way from early to growth stage funding through to M &A events. We saw this week, Databricks, which is a privately held data infrastructure company announced that they were acquiring Mosaic ML. For $1 .3 billion, that headline number is based on a cash and stock purchase price, where the value of the stock that was being used to acquire Mosaic ML was based off of the last round's valuation for Databricks, which was $38 billion from a fundraising that they did in 2021.

51:42So arguably the valuation should be lower and the overall purchase price could be considered lower, but that's besides the point. Mosaic ML, as you guys may remember, as a company I mentioned, a number of episodes ago led by the founder of Nirvana, which was an early AI business that was acquired by Intel. And then he started Mosaic ML, Heney offers open source models and I shared the performance data of their most recent announcement on the show a few weeks ago. You know, there's rumors. I don't have any confirmed reports, but there's rumors that Mosaic ML saw their ARR grow from one million to $20 million since January.

52:22There was other rumors that said they were only at six million of revenue. Regardless, Databricks is paying a pretty hefty premium and I think it begs the question, and what do data infrastructure, database companies end up looking like in the future, if AI has to become part of the core infrastructure of every enterprise, and this is creating a big shift. So, SACs as our enterprise software investor expert, maybe you can share with us what this means for the sector. Does this buoy excitement for AI infrastructure startups? Does this change? The investing landscape? Is it just reinforcing what folks are already doing?

53:01I think it's a reinforcement. I mean, the space is probably the hottest space where you're talking about like AI infrastructure for enterprises. I think it's probably the hottest space right now in Venture Land. We actually looked at this deal. We had a small allocation there next round. They had a term sheet for a series B. Emergence was actually going to lead it. This is Mosaic ML? Yeah. Yeah. I don't know if it's just me telling you all this. but now, yeah, go ahead, Greg. That's what I'm talking about. Greg, this is why people say it in. Greg, yes. Greg, yes. That a term sheet from Emergence to raise 50 million at 400 posts.

53:38Wow. Yeah, and we were going to have a small allocation in that. And as I recall, the valuation was somewhere around 30 to 35 times ARR, which actually is not that insane for a very fast -scoring company in a hot space. So that implies about 10 million of ARR. I don't remember the exact figure, but I think that's sort of the ballpark, but growing very very quickly. I mean up from like one or two at the beginning of the year. Right. So I actually understand why someone would want to acquire or invest in this company, like I said, I think we wanted to invest. And while we were sort of trying our best together.

54:16You didn't say anything when I talked about them on the show a few weeks ago. You were just sitting there, mom's a word or... basically in the works because the founder called us up and he had already promised us a small allocation around, Navin did. And he called up and said, actually, I've got this deal. So we're putting the round on hold. And so I didn't think I should say anything because obviously it was still ongoing. But yeah, we knew about this deal that was kind of coming down the pipe. I didn't know for sure that it would happen. But yeah, we heard it was in the ballpark of this like 1 .2 to 1 .3 billion dollar number, which like you said, because Databricks is a private stock, maybe it's only half of that, or 750, or something like that, who knows.

54:58It's still a great deal. But a lot of people are saying it's a crazy deal. I don't think it's a crazy deal, because before this happened, after an avian sign, the term sheet for the series B, an investor came over the top to invest at a $700 million valuation. So people were kind of going crazy. Now, I don't think that's necessarily a rational behavior. I think that's more of evidence of a maniac going on, but I think that what he got offered is obviously a fantastic deal And I think what it's evidence of is that these big enterprise Inferacompanies are going to try and build an end -to -end Toolchain here and I think mosaic ml had a very very important part of the Toolset which is training up these models basically maximizing GPU efficiency because GPUs are basically the scarce item right now we have a GPU shortage and it's probably not going to get better for a year or two if that.

55:52So this is a very important part of the stack and I think it's probably a smart acquisition for both data breaks. I mean, I remember snowflake which compete with data breaks also acquired Niva which was founded by one of my colleagues, a guy I work with and a new really great guy, sweetheart for $150 million last month, that deal was announced. And the pattern recognition that It seems to emerge here is that if you're in the data infrastructure business, it seems like it's becoming critical to level up. It's not just about storing and moving and manipulating data, but the interpretation of data through models and the tooling to build those models becomes a critical component of all of these toolkits that these software companies have to provide to their enterprise software companies.

56:39It's a big leveling up that's necessary, which seems to me there's other companies out they're like them that are also going to need to strap on tools like this to make themselves competitive in this market scape, which means that there are more acquisitions still to come. Yeah. Jamal, Jake, how you guys agree or have a different point of view? Yeah, I'm looking at it. It's a big number, the headline number, but I agree with SACs that the actual numbers have the number. So if you look at the number of engineers they had based on LinkedIn data and pitch book data, probably 60, 70 employees, 80 employees, and then 40, 50 of them are engineers.

57:15So that puts it at $30 million per engineer. And that's one way to look at these acquisitions. And I think, you know, probably $3 to $10 million per engineer for like really high -end engineers is more of a going price. But if this is half that amount because they bought it with monopoly money, in other words, they're 2021 price for their company, it's great. And I think you nailed it, Freeberg. What's happening is this layer of natural language on top of any service, whether it's something as simple as Yelp or something as complicated as a giant financial company with tons of transaction data, being able to talk to it and understand it and then have your machine learning team build tools.

58:03So business owners don't have to hire a data scientist. the actual business leaders can talk to the data and get back answers or just say, hey, tell me about our customers. How have they changed over the year? And then, hey, that's pretty interesting. Tell me more about our customers. And how are they reacting to these three new products? And you will get back intelligence that previously was unable to be accessed. And so, I was just at Sequoia yesterday. with or two days ago with the latest seven graduates from our accelerator, we bring them to meet with SACs and his team, we bring them to meet with Sequoia.

58:43And when we were at Sequoia, I realized that of the seven companies, four of them would not have been possible before these machine learning APIs were available. And OpenAI is but one, there are now in the companies I'm talking to, they're trialing freeberg on average, six, seven, eight language models before they pick one and they're not picking open AI every time. Putting that aside, these businesses were not possible before this technology was introduced and available via API in the last six to 12 months. And I think there's a bunch of businesses that economically would not work, that now work.

59:19I can give one example. There are countless meetings that are recorded over Zoom, right? Think like a local school board meeting. Well, nobody could ever make a database of all all the discussions going on at local school boards and then analyze all them. But now, because all of those are saved on Zoom and they occur on Zoom and they're available for public record, you can ingest every single one of those and then build a Bloomberg terminal of every discussion happening at every school board, everywhere in the United States and do that with chat GPT or any of the language models and then get really great insights from it.

59:58That would be too costly to transcribe at $100 every hour or two and normalize, let alone to analyze. And so I'm looking at businesses as an investor, what I'm looking at right now is businesses that were previously not economically viable before this technology. And then that are now economically viable. If that makes sense, and I'm just looking at each company under that lens right now, and I'm finding a lot of interesting startups. They seem to have that in common. Timok, similar news supporting this very quick evolution further up the value stack. So we were just talking about these companies that are providing effectively cooling as infrastructure.

1:00:41A little bit more up the value stack is inflection AI, which was started by Mustafa Suleiman and Reid Hoffman, who was a co -founder while Mustafa was working with him as a venture partner at law. But Mustafa, as you guys know, was the co -founder of DeepMind, which Google bought for $400 million, really created the core of Google's AI capability and is considered one of the kind of preeminent thought leaders and entrepreneurs that has built in this space. He started in flexion and the business just announced today that they've just closed a $1 .3 billion funding around like by Microsoft, Reed Hoffman, Bill Gates, Eric Schmidt, Nvidia, with an intention of building the largest AI cluster in the world.

1:01:2822 ,000 Nvidia H100s as part of the build out, but I think you've shared Schmoth historically that these big funding rounds for these AI businesses that haven't necessarily been launched product yet don't make sense. Is this still, you know, kind of reinforce your point and, you know, what's your read on the inflation funding. Well, the list price of an H100 is about 30 ,000, but the street price, so it's very hard to get it. So if you go to eBay and try to buy an H100, it's like 40 or 45 ,000. So if you have a 22 ,000 cluster of H100s, that's about $900 million of capex, just that. And then you know all the sundry stuff around it call it roughly plus or minus a billion dollars And so of the one and a half billion they've raised let's say a billion goes into building this 22 ,000 node cluster You have 500 million fresh GNA and so what that leaves behind is basically two and a half billion of enterprise value for their chat bot So I don't know I mean I've never used pie has anybody any of you guys used it?

1:02:37Do you guys know if it's good? Jake, I'm sure you've experimented with it. Have you experimented with it or not really? Which one? Pi? That's what their chatbot is called, pi. I think it's like, hey, pi .com or something. I think I did try it once and it was not memorable. Oh, Poe. You mean Poe? No, not Poe. No, no, no, that's a horror. That's a horror. This is Pi. Personal one where you talk to it and ask, hey, how are you doing? and their concept is like you have this one relationship. So it's like one chat thread. It's not kind of how I like to work with the I use threads and I share threads with my team.

1:03:15So I'm not a fan of this like you have one relationship with one assistant. I think the thing is it's interesting to note that very rarely when you invest money in the billions of dollars does the catbacks or purchase of one specific form of equipment take up literally really 25 % of the enterprise value. That's at least a typical, at least for a startup. If you're buying a fixed plant of a slow cash flow generating business then maybe a bunch of that has some value. So that's what stood out to me and all of these things, Reberg is again increasingly, this is all just a pass through to Nvidia.

1:03:55It's probably in some ways a pass through to the big cloud providers. So whenever I see a chip maker current cloud provider come together to put in a lot of money. It's essentially round -tripping cash. They're giving them money, which then they use to buy their services and then you're just pumping revenue. I hope it works. Jim, I'm giving Wish in the best, but that's the capital set. We just talked about where the infrastructure companies that are increasingly looking like more commodity service providers if they don't up level with AI tooling, acquiring Mosaic ML and acquiring Niva. Do you think that that's an indication of more emanated come?

1:04:36And if so, doesn't that justify the increased funding, the increased valuation and the activity that we're seeing in the early stage with some of these businesses? I think for sure there's going to be more M &A. And I think the valuations will be high, not because these companies have a lot of revenue yet, but because it's very strategic for these big, and for companies to assemble. the end -to -end tool chain. I mean, we should explain to folks what that means. Enterprise software companies provide software to businesses that are not traditionally technology companies. They also provide software to other businesses to help them build new tools, to help them build out their business.

1:05:11So an Enterprise software company can sell to United Airlines or can sell to Visa or can sell to Ford. And that software can then be used by that company to build tools that are powered by the database or powered by the data analytics or increasingly powered by AI tools. And so they can build AI applications and AI capabilities into their business, whether it's United Airlines or Expedia or Visa or whomever. And that's why these companies are so critical in terms of enabling the transformation of industries with AI tooling and why getting AI tooling into their capability set is so critical right now.

1:05:47It's important to note, though, guys, that whenever you have the emergence of a new sector, sacks, I think you are right that M &A goes up, but it tends to be that the valuations go down. Peak M &A froth happens at the beginning of the cycle when hype is at maximum, and facts are at the minimum. And that's okay. That's good for the startup. It's marginally negative for the existing shareholder of a large company. And then over time it gets itself sorted out when the facts are more obvious. So you know, it's kind of like you guys remember when the optical networking craze. Hey, I had these multi -billion dollar acquisitions and where do they go?

1:06:27They went they went nowhere. They just disappeared. We actually have like a market map that we did that I think can explain this concept of a end to end tool chain. So this is a slide that our growth team shout out to Mike Robinson and Kimmikabura. They put this together in preparation and part of the investment memo for mosaic and I think to explain the point You are kind of making freeberg like why do enterprises need the services one really simple way of thinking about it right now Is that every enterprise would like to roll out its own chat GPT? They would all like to have their own internal version of chat GPT where they employees for example could ask questions and and get answers.

1:07:08That's where all the action is right now. Every enterprise would buy that tomorrow if it existed in the way that they want. Give it an example. The idea would be that any employee in the company could ask questions to the AI model the way you can ask chat to you. And would have all the enterprises data and would also understand their permissions and have all the security settings so that only the right feel could get the right information. That's the kind of intelligence they were on lock. I mean, there are lots of other use cases as well. So like a corporate oracle. So I can, if I'm in HR, I can ask, hey, tell me about our, you know, compensation.

1:07:43Yeah. Totally, co -pilot for the CEO. I think there's going to be lots of these. I think the sales team is going to have their own co -pilot. I think the marketing team's going to have their own co -pilot. Costume support hasn't already. Customer support will have it. And here's what they're on co -pilot. So there's going to be a lot of these. But I think enterprises want one at the level of the company intranet where employees could just ask questions. But they do not want to share their data with OpenAI. That's very clear. They want to roll out their own models. The question is, how do you roll out your own model?

1:08:13What the show's here is, the different piece of the stack that you have to have. First, you capture all of your data. You've got to label it to be classified right for the model. You've got to store it somewhere. Then you need to get one of these open source AI models off the shelf. and there's probably the most prominent site for this called a hugging face, which already has something like I think a $2 billion valuation. That's another really crazy valuation to ARR multiple, but hugging face has all the open source models. It's very active. So people grab the latest open source model that's the best fit for them, and then they need to train that model.

1:08:49And that's really where Mosaic played. And there's a ton of activity right now Now, in this last mile problem of how do you customize a model to make it suitable for your use, whether you're an enterprise, whether you're a customer service team, whether you're a SaaS app that wants to incorporate AI capabilities into your app. That's where all the action is right now, is customizing these open source models. That then leads to basically being able to get the right inferences. And there's a sort of a separate category around hardware that is, you know, we don't play there. But this is kind of the end -to -end tool chain.

1:09:22I think these big tech companies are going to be racing to put this whole thing together. To fill it out. Yeah. And that's so there'll be more emanates your prediction, which means more startup valuation boomer, more capital deploying. There was a couple of articles this week and Chamoff, this is your red meat as much as Ukraine is, Sax is because you've talked about this at length. Social messaging startup, IRL, is shutting down after a board investigation. and found 95 % of its claimed 20 million users were actually fake. This is a company that in June of 2021 raised $170 million series C at a valuation of over a billion dollars making it one of the many proclaimed unicorns of Silicon Valley led by SoftBank's Vision Fund.

1:10:03The investor who was sitting on the board said that they didn't know if we've ever given an investment term sheet to a startup faster than SoftBank gave to IRL at the time. At the same time, a different story, but in the same week, a company called Bayju, which you have talked about in the past, was once valued at $22 billion, and claimed to be India's most valuable startup is in turmoil, as shareholders and creditors are seeking to dilute the founder, and he's rushing to find capital and raise a billion dollars to try and buoy the company, process one of the investors, mark the company's valuation down to 5 .1 billion, so down 75%.

1:10:40I guess the question is overall, are we still seeing this kind of turmoil in Silicon Valley from the Zerp era funding of startups in Stark -Jogster position to the excitement of the friends here on AI? It's a characteristic of the exact same thing, meaning if you replaced AI with crypto, So it's the exact same thing. If you replaced AI with co -working, if you replaced AI with, I don't know, synthetic biology, if you replaced AI with SAS, this has all happened before. I think it's important to identify what this is. What this is is that there aren't enough checks and balances, and there are fundamentally people who are deeply in experience to are in the wrong job.

1:11:32And in the few key moments where the venture capitalists is supposed to add value, that person is ill -equipped and unprepared. Why? Because they were the VP of X, Y, and Z at some start -up. And they got hired to no fault of their own into a dynamic because these venture funds wanted to raise larger and amounts of money. So what happens? You don't even know how to ask the basic questions or even more insidiously you don't have the courage to say the hard thing. And so these things happen that are frankly inexcusable. Right? So in the case of one of these companies and I've mentioned this before, they approach just for financing.

1:12:17And when we asked for a data room, we got a Google dock link to a spreadsheet. Now there's no reasonable world in which a company is that unsophisticated when it comes to understanding their business. Right? A data room should include an enormous amount of operational and financial metrics that you can use to come to your own conclusion so that you can present it transparently to the investor. The idea that boards wouldn't even hold these companies accountable is just a sign that the board members themselves are pretty fundamentally an experienced people. And I think the thing that we do, which is a mistake, is we say, oh, well, X, Y, and Z firm, led this deal.

1:13:00Yeah, that may be true. But really what it means is that firm. In a grab to get the money, hired some person that checks some boxes, put them in the job, that person led around, and there just wasn't any infrastructure to either teach that person, or then that person to have the courage to hold the founder responsible. That will play out in AI as well. It's just that we're at the beginning of the hype cycle, right? Because we replace AI again, as I said with any of these other things, we sat here a little bit hand -ranging when we saw these crazy valuations for these NFT projects. Where are those now?

1:13:38Right? So you name it. This is about fundamentally inexperienced people doing a job that seems pretty easy from the outside, but in practical reality there are only a few legends in our business. Most people, and I think it was shy Goldman that did the math on this. Most people do not know how to run these business as well. Nick will find that fleet you can show. I think it's like two and a half percent of all of the funds that are in pitch books, so over 800 of them have ever generated more than three acts in two funds. So this is a hard business. as it turns out, you can't just wake up and be an investor, it turns out.

1:14:15And that's what we're finding. So I don't know. It's not very surprising in the end. None of this is surprising. Good stuff. And Shemop had a really good point in the middle there is that there is a generation of venture capitalists who were added during the boom, who were operators, but they've never been taught to have the discipline of capital allocators. And one of those key pieces of discipline is asking uncomfortable questions and doing uncomfortable diligence. and you can trust people, but you need to verify. That is a key part of the job. You can trust the founders, but you have to verify that the data you have is correct.

1:14:50The fact that SoftBank did this at incredible evaluation and the person who did this deal never checked that the customers were real makes you unfit to serve in the job. And I will do diligence, and during that time period, Freiburg, I had many founders say to me you're asking for more diligence than the lead and this deal is closing and We are over subscribed and I said okay, and they said okay, so you're not gonna you're not gonna require this I said oh no, we require this diligence. We want to see your you know very basic stuff your bank statement your PNL We want to talk to once you give us a list of your first thousand give us a list of 500 customers from last month will give you five numbers we're going to talk to five random customers.

1:15:35Like people did not want to do this stuff. We do that this work at our firm when we start to own 5, 10 % of this and we train our founders to do to be ready for proper diligence. All that diligence is happening now. Now in the early stages, there's not much to go on, but you can check stuff. During this period, founders used the hot market to not participate in the due diligence process. And when you look at companies, a lot of times people will suspend disbelief. This company buys you, I don't know a ton about it, but it seems to have an educational app, like a company, brilliant .org, that Chemaht and I are early investors in, and Chemaht think you bit it.

1:16:15Great, great business. But then their business and their revenue seems to be based on a series of like, Kumon, like in -person instruction. That's not a high -grows margin business, sorry. If you have to have a storefront, you're not a software business anymore. And so people started giving valuations, and this is the second part, and I'll just wrap on this. People started giving valuations to these companies that were real -world businesses, that were low margin businesses, direct to consumer, whatever it was. They suspended disbelief, and they gave them valuations for high growth, high gross margin businesses.

1:16:49And that was another mistake. You put those two things together, not doing diligence, and then just misvaluing of actual assets, that's the cleanup work that's going on right now. And it takes years. I mean, it took decades for them to pinch Bernie Madoff. It can take 10 years for these frauds to come out. There was a guy who kept telling the SEC about Bernie Madoff. I think he was like nine years since the first time he let them know that the perfect returns were just not possible statistically. So it takes time, but they're picking these folks up everywhere. or a dough quang got picked up in Montenegro, the guy from Luna, and it's gonna take a decade to clean up all of the fraud in our space.

1:17:32I think this was sort of mentioned by Jamal, but I think it needs to be a bigger point, which is the influence of fun size on these decisions. I mean, crafts funds are in the six to 700 million range. So when we write a check, it's usually $10, $15, $20 million check in a Series A company. That's like a big check for us. were really going to sweat that decision. For soft bank, it tends to $20 million check in a $100 billion fund, which is what they had. It doesn't even make sense. It's a waste of their time. It's not even a rounding error. For them to basically make a decision. It's like a $2 ,000 check for you.

1:18:08Yeah, exactly. So for them, they had to write $200 million checks to justify their time managing $100 billion. And so the mistake when they make a mistake is 20 times bigger than it should be. That should have been maybe a $10 million mistake, not a $200 million mistake, but they're fun -sized, force them to basically write these gigantic checks and they're writing them into companies that were effectively seed stage or series A companies. If it was into a growth stage company, I think that's fine. There's a lot more data and there's a lot more customer references that you can check at a later stage company.

1:18:41By the way, the number one part of the diligence, I'd say for us, other than looking at metrics, which is anyone can do is the off -sheet references. Talking to customers from a list that you figured out yourself, not from the company itself, is probably the single most important qualitative part of diligence. So I don't know what happened here, but... It's not stated explicitly, but I think it's important. David, you have credibility. So when you say something, SACs, people listen. Because you have bonafides that are undeniable. Same thing with J. Cal, same thing with you, Freiburg. I think, you know, and this may sound mean, but it's like most of these people are just XYZ middle -level VPs from a startup.

1:19:22And that's a great thing. But it's not necessarily going to give you the gravitas, especially if that's not what you are forced to do to help build that company. And when push comes to shove inside of a boardroom or in the middle of diligence, there has to be conflict. I think it's a necessary feature of good decisions. And that conflict arises internally within your investment team, but it also has to come externally with the executives of the startup and with the CEO themselves because when you're prosecuting a good decision, it's unbelievable that you agree on 100 % of things. And there has to be certain things that are controversial, otherwise by definition, that company isn't really even pushing the boundary.

1:20:02So I just think that these are all skills that are poorly taught while you are building a business. It is not the reason why you should have been in charge of allocating 50 and 100 million dollar checks into companies That is just crazy town. I love your point sacks though about fun -sized dynamics fun -sized dynamics are destiny Right, it really is and the optimal fun size for venture is somewhere between 250 and 600 million according to everybody who's been doing this For you know more than a decade or two and who's successful whether it's when the costs are coming down So as the input cost come down, whether it's for engineers and co -pilots and and hardware and abstraction layers, then theoretically Greater outcomes should be generated with fewer dollars in which would again Tell you that fund sizes should actually go down not up that the reason they go up is because you get paid an annual Management fee and so obviously the way to wait the way to make more money is to get 2 % on a larger fixed number every year versus 2 % on a smaller number or, you know, for example, what we did was we were like, we're gonna go and hit grand slams.

1:21:08And so I traded off management fee in return for 30 % carry. And that turned out to be literally a multi -billion dollar smart decision because I gave up tens of millions of dollars up front for back end. Now the back end could have gone to zero. And maybe it still can, so who knows? But, you know, most folks wouldn't do that. Most folks take the sort of risk adjusted bet and say, You know what? I'll just take the 2 % and I'll raise a 200 million then a 500 million then a billion then a two billion Over a lot. Yeah, and they stack them all and they get the 2 % and all of a sudden the profits don't matter Which means the outcomes don't matter which means the diligence is perfunctory and it becomes a theatrical expose that you can use You know this sort of thin fig leaf you can point to LPs and say we did our work here give us more money for this next fund That's the rat race that the venture community is in.

1:22:01And it's going to get played out in companies like IRL and Bijus, and a lot of these AI companies, quite honestly. Right, and the chickens have come home to risk for all the crap down in the mess. This time is not different. Is I think what I'm trying to say? This time is not different. Did you guys see there was some article that reported that fund raising for late -stage funds is just like cratered. Dead. So, insight was trying to raise a $10 billion fund, and they've only been owed a raise too. I don't know what it was. No, no, no. It was $22 down to $10. and of which they've raised two. Okay, so 10%.

1:22:31And then Tiger was trying to raise 12, they cut it to six, and then they can only raise two. Makes sense. Yeah. So basically that's like whatever, 80 to 90 % reduction in the size of these funds. Yeah, I mean, we're out of the sovereigns. The sovereigns where they were going for this money are buying sports teams. They're like, you know what? Instead of tech, let's just buy sports teams. And they're buying series A. And they're buying Manchester United and they're buying distressed portfolios. Yeah. And the and there's a huge crunch. There's a huge we've talked about before but there's a huge crunch in late -stage Fiancine.

1:23:02It's only going to get worse over the next 18 months. I asked by the last week like how many of these zombie courts You think there are the 1400 he said 30 to 40 % yeah, I think he might be you know Could be look out of 1400. I think it could be 700 or zombie courts. I think it's at least 700 I think it's probably 60 % Yeah, it's and then the other 40 % let's say how many of them have a down -round coming? I think 60 % go to zero of the remaining 40 % half of them probably return money. And then of the remaining half, half of those maybe get one and a half X. And then you get a geometric distribution from there, which means the blended return of that entire stream of unicorns will be about 1 .1 X, but it will be very massively distributed.

1:23:49I think that is exactly right, Tim. I would. Yeah. I would never everybody's getting their money back except if you don't have diversification. Yeah, it's it's the I think the market is sending a very clear message, which is these are used to get it. No, no, most people won't get their money. Most people want to get their money back, but on average, it's going to be one extra turn. Yeah, it's not going to be even the initiative to correct. Well, I'm glad that the term zombie corn has held. Guys, um, we are coming up on our time. Do you guys want to do science corner or do you want to, um, Yeah, that we have us need to use the bathroom breaks.

1:24:21We go ahead and just go do it. We're going to take a leak and we'll come back and make a graded joke. You know, I'm okay. I'm going to wrap. So look, it's been great. It's been great being your host. Be Christy. So give us a side. It's quite a, you don't hug me. You don't embrace me. You don't love my interview. You're great. I actually posted a clip of RFK talking about vaccines. I'd love for you to listen to it and actually give us the critique. Yes. I will. Can we do it next week? That's going viral right now. He did such a good job explaining his position on that. He did such a good job. Yeah.

1:24:56Look, did you guys read the off -it piece? I forwarded to you and I said, please read this. If you guys read that piece, I'll watch his clip and let's talk about it next week. Is that cool? So, office is that? Yeah, he is a vaccine scientist who RFK junior references often as someone that he met with and spoke with and says, I caught him in a lie. I often basically said, here's exactly what happened, here's the conversation, here's the data, here's the facts, here's the science. And I would really, really, really encourage you guys to read that, please. And then I'll watch his clip and like, let's have a real kind of analytical conversation about statements that are good questions to ask and good things to interrogate.

1:25:36And things that are being said that maybe aren't factually correct. And I think that we need to kind of really, as a service to ourselves and to people that that listen to us really do that work. So let's do that and come back and talk about it next week if that's cool. But I encourage everyone to read off it. He put it on substack. Nick will put the link in the notes here. Let's definitely look for it. Yeah, I'll continue. I'll continue, exactly. I think that's the most important. You want to talk about that certain senator that all of a sudden just basically gave us the Heisman? No, we've had all of those by the way.

1:26:05So let me just be clear, that's not the only Heisman we've received on the All in Summit. I will say that the speaker list for the All in Summit is extraordinary. It was looking fantastic. We're gonna have a great time and I'm really excited for the conversation. But you're saying some folks, Heisman does because of our support of RFK. That did happen and specifically the fact that you actually opened mind it. Yeah. And then there were other folks who were insulted by things that were said about them by people on the show. So soft. Do you guys want want to hear about the Nano Grav. Yes. They came out.

1:26:41Okay, I'll cover this one real quick. Wait, what about this like slow hammer that we're all getting? What is that? That's it. It's a slow hammer. Exactly. Okay, go. Tell us. Well, are you talking about like the new H3 EV, but it only goes up to 50 miles per hour? What is that? The new hammer, the new HV, you know, the. They have an EV. They're coming out. We did EV of that. Oh, you're kidding. It's hilarious. It's like a great troll. I remember when Schwarzenegger got the hammer back in the 90s. He's amazing. He's the guy in Bukka. And then the Hummer was the cool part of Driba. Yeah, and a freaking boy.

1:27:13He's in his mini coupons in that of Melika. OK, so yesterday a paper was published by an international scientific consortium. This group is called NanoGrav. And they've been using a series of instruments to measure pulsars, including a 500 meter radio telescope array. which allows them to see what's so funny. No, I just are like three or eight of each other. What's that? That's what I had to stop myself. Get him out of here. I'm beauty, I'm beauty. The nanograph data that was released is 15 years of data from pulsars. And pulsars are neutron stars, which are stars that have collapsed on themselves and are basically super dense and start spinning.

1:27:56And then these pulsars, you know, you basically like a lighthouse, you can see the light. So it looks like a, almost like a strobe light. And we can see thousands of these across the universe and we can observe them. And the rate at which the pulsing is coming out of these pulsars tells us a lot about what is happening in the space between Earth and those pulsars. And when you collect enough data over a long enough period of time, which is what these folks have just released as 15 years worth of this data, you can start to see really interesting patterns in the data that support the theory that space time itself is slowly vibrating, being stretched, being compressed, being pulled apart, being pushed back together because of very large gravitational events happening around the universe.

1:28:46And what that means is you guys have all seen, you know, that kind of two -dimensional image of a black hole, and Nick, if you could find one online and pull it up, where it like, hey, at the middle of a black hole, space itself collapses in and it collapses down. And what happens is space and time get significantly elongated when they're really close to gravity. Gravity actually pulls space, sucks it in, sucks in time, and it becomes distorted. And so when you have large black holes around the universe spinning and running past each other, they're actually pulling and stretching space time itself.

1:29:18And that sends out ripples throughout the universe. ripples that are slowly undulating space and time itself. So by observing all of these pulsars around the universe and the rate at which these pulsars are pulsing and seeing slight variations, we can start to measure and actually see those waves, those very slow waves of space time itself undulating and being pushed and compressed. And so it supports Einstein's general theory of relativity, which indicated that space time itself can be warped by gravity and it provides a really interesting picture on the universe itself that all around us we have large masses that are many many millions or billions of light years away that are creating waves in space and time itself that we as humans will never kind of observe realize or feel ourselves but as part of the fabric and the underlying nature of our universe with space and time being slowly warped and slowly elongated, slowly compressed And it's a really fascinating picture of the universe.

1:30:23Over time, a scientist gather more and more of this data. It will provide insights into where in the universe, these massive black hole events may be occurring, and also provide insights into the early picture and the large scale structure of the universe, which helps us better understand how everything started and where we're all coming from. So it was a really fascinating data release. I think it's a really kind of profound thing if you take a little time and think about it. It's super exciting. It's getting a lot of press coverage today and encourages all to pull our heads out of the Ukraine war and Silicon Valley and money and all this stuff and realize that there are things of extraordinary scale and structure that are happening around us.

1:31:01Let me ask you two questions. Number one, why does it matter? And number two, any theories here of what we might discover, if this goes 10X or 100X in terms of the information we're getting? Many years ago, it was theorized that there's what's called a cosmic microwave background radiation, the CMB. And what that is, it's the leftover heat from the formation of the universe, from the universe when the big bang happened. Yep. And the scientists figured out how to create really sensitive radio telescopes and put them in the, in orbit, and they started to observe the background radiation. And what that showed us was the fingerprint of the universe, the original structure of the universe, that created ultimately all the galaxies, super galaxies, and then ultimately all the stars, and then the planets and everything that came from that.

1:31:53This could be the beginning of seeing a gravitational background of the universe, where we could actually start to see perhaps the fingerprint of the space time of the whole universe, of what the actual structure of space itself and time itself looks like throughout the universe, what the perturbations being driven by some very large massive, supermassive black holes, there was a black hole discovered this week that's 30 billion times the mass of our sun. There are these massive objects out there that are actively distorting space time, and we're going to start to get a fingerprint of that with this sort of data.

1:32:29And over time, that just gives us a better sense of what the overall structure of the universe this looks like not just from the heat energy that we're collecting, but also the gravitational waves that we're now able to observe through the inference of this data collection. This just makes deepens our understanding of the universe, but there's not like the universe. Yeah, which is amazing and interesting. And it validates and proves the general theory of relativity, which if you think about the application of that down the road, that may lead to things like close to or as fast as light travel or things related to time travel.

1:33:00or you know, there's a lot of things that people have theorized for decades about, you know, black holes and the warping of space time itself. I'm not saying that any of this stuff is... Did you see the three -body problem trailer? Oh yeah, it looks amazing. It looks amazing. It looks amazing. Looks amazing. What a great, what a great, definitely we have to wait so long. I hate it when they put out trailers so... How long is it coming out? Three -body problem. Next year. Oh wow. Yeah. Oh, I still haven't seen your movie, either guys, your movie that you wanted me to see. which we're gonna try.

1:33:31Oh, everything everywhere, all at once. I got a better movie for you. I got a great pull for you. It's on pay -per -view right now. The movie called About Blackberry. It tells the story of Blackberry. Oh, it's like an independent film. It is awesome. I just reviewed it on this week and start -ups. It's called - It's just on his Blackberry. Called Blackberry. Yeah. I think it will guys. This has been episode 135 of The All In Pod. I really appreciate it. are my guys live time together just enough time to get you back to your Nirvana concert. What's the background on this one? Is that a rival? What is that?

1:34:09What's that background? What movie? That's a black hole. That's a black hole. Just a black hole. Okay. No, I think that from might be a vent. What's going on with sex as hair? Because he looks like did you get it cut, sacks? He got a cut. Did you cut it? No, you broke our I got a mild sloughing. Shoah, show us the fluff. Let's go. Let's see. Oh, boo. I mean, it's still crazy, right? It's too short or what? What's good? You gotta just keep grounded out, man. Jake, how you want to take us out? You do a better outro. All right, everybody for David Sack. We architect coming at you. Z100 Board of Zoo, Chimalfa, Polyhopathy, a two for Tuesdays, tears for fears coming up, and Freemberg with the science project.

1:34:53All right, traveling back in time with David Friedberg, two for Tuesday, Jackson Brown. Here we go.

1:35:03Gotcha. That's right. We're in greatest moderator. Jason Galgay. Out of the world's greatest moderate. I can do my MPR voice if you like. All right, closing us out here, episode 135, PCRW 92 .3, the sound of Santa Monica, this Sunday at the Venice Farmer's Market, two for one on the organic milk, go check it out. And we'll see you all later on the politics of culture, David Sacks chiming in on the Republican GOP position, which we did consider Friedberg deeply going into science and Chimouth Polyhapatía on wealth disparity for everybody. I am your host here at KCRW. Jason Most moderate moderate you'll see you next time KCRW

1:35:55Love you guys

1:36:19Besties are gone, go thrifted. That's my dog taking a wish, you drive away. So sex, we're not on the internet. Oh man, my hamlet, the gesture will meet me at once. We should all just get a room and just have one big hug, or because they're all just like this sexual tension that we just need to release that out. What, you're the bee, what, you're a bee. Be your bee. Be your bee. We need to get my besties aren't there. I'm going, darling. Yes, I know that.