E138: Presidential Candidate Vivek Ramaswamy in conversation with the Besties

25:26So I'm actually focused on elements that I can deliver on without asking Congress either for permission or forgiveness. And so that's all I answered to Jason was I go straight to at least let's focus on actually the administrative state, which on my reading of the Constitution and reports in to the single duly elected president. So when I talk about the permitting process of the Department of Interior or shutting down the Nuclear Regulatory Commission, I believe in, you know, we could go, I'm going to details on it tonight. I have the legal authority to do that as the US president. I think the legislation is going to be much more complicated and I don't believe that I can be in a position to promise what we would do legislatively to any of that.

26:03You mentioned getting people to take all these jobs that are available. Do you want to talk about immigration for a second and what you think about that? Yeah, merit based immigration. Maybe for you to go right. Or for a right to immigration. Would you, are you saying you would cut entitlements like unemployment or shorten the unemployment period to force people to go back to work? Is that, and what I'm reading into? And tie them to work requirements, absolutely. Would you have specific for that? Like a certain number of months or, you know, a pretty good, a pretty good, I mean, I do, but I think that's again, I'm very clear about what I will do through executive authority.

26:37What needs to go through legislation, I mean, that's all in negotiation, but I think a good principle is 1996 or in the 1990s, Workfare under Clinton was actually far more aggressive than the work environment work requirements that were put into this supposed Republican -led debt deal where, like what did they say? It was, if you're age 18 to 55 and you are able -bodied and childless, then you have to work at least 20 hours a week in order to receive more than three months out of three years worth of welfare, right? And Joe Biden as a US senator voted for actually much more stringent work fair requirements than 90 so you know, yes I have ideas on specifics, but I'm not gonna make a promise on exactly what that specific look like But a guiding principle is it has to be at least as aggressive as what we adopted I mean during Clinton we had 69 almost 70 % participation and we're at 60.

27:34Exactly. Now I think so it's obvious that we have to trim that, but to Trimots next point, we have 10 million job openings. We're not letting anybody in. How would you look at immigration? Obviously, we have people coming in the southern border illegally and then we have H1B visas and now Canada is saying, hey, we'll steal all those H1Bs. We'll take them. So how do you look at immigration to Trimots' question? Merit -based immigration. I mean, one of the things that Canada does have and I'm not a fan of America, I'm meditating Canada or anything like this in most respects, but they have a point -based system, right?

28:05They have a point -based system. And so I think the point -based system should work differently in the US, but I do favor merit -based immigration. I'm a little bit of a departure from what I think is the Republican consensus here. People I respect, Tom Cotton and others have proposed bills with a hard cap on the number of immigrants. I think it's a mistake. I think that the cap should declare itself based on how many people meet the merit -acratic criteria We're not a little different. Quality is then for what would be the top criteria in this point -based system. Two criteria. Skills that match up to job openings in the United States.

28:39But secondarily, and this one's important to me, I would move the civics portion of becoming a citizen to the front end of even being granted a visa to enter this country. And I think that addresses and accommodates an important part of the concern that many people who are pro -immigration cap actually favor is I think there are legitimate concerns about the dilution, the loss of a national identity. But a lot of that is conflated with first the cycle of illegal immigration. I'm a hardliner on this. I favor putting the US military on the southern border. I've said I would use it on the northern border.

29:14I believe that we are on strong constitutional and legal authority to do it. I do not think building the wall was enough. There are cartel finance tunnels underneath that wall that vehicles literally run through today. So in some ways I'm going further than Trump in this direction, but simultaneous lane, deburacritize speed up the process for merit -based immigration, but part of merit includes not just skills, but also civic commitments to the country. And I'm, you know, I use the word nationalist before I know that scares some people. I mean it in a positive way. I think every high school student in this country should have to pass the same civics test that an immigrant has to pass in order to become a citizen of this country.

29:59I also would favor bringing that on the front end and it selects for the kind of people who know something about the country when they enter. Which I think is a good thing. So people should assimilate and they should love this country in order to come into the country. Yes, I do. I think you should want to come here to be an American. Yeah. I think you're going to get agreement around the horn here. Sachs, you've heard the VEX position so far. You obviously are passionate about the GOP. What do you agree with and what don't you agree with so far? Well, there's a lot of stuff to agree with there.

30:28We're talking about American exceptionalism. One thing I want to talk about there is that I agree that America is exceptional and we're most exceptional when we're trying to set an example for other nations where we're trying to be the shining City on a hill as Reagan put it. But lately and really I mean over the last couple of decades What you've seen is that what American acceptors and means to a lot of people in Washington is that we run all over the world and impose our ideology and our values on all these different countries. We began this great crusade to try and spread democracy in Middle East.

31:05We tried to turn countries like Afghanistan and Iraq into Madisonian democracies, where you now are very, very involved in Ukraine basically trying to detect detach that country from the Russian sphere of influence and turning it into a member of our military and economical alliance So it does seem like American exceptionalism is taken on this sort of harder or more militarized edge. Where would you draw the line? I mean like what makes sense to you? I think I basically agree with everything you just said I think as a side note on the geopolitics of it I do think Ukraine is on track to become potentially the next Vietnam or the next Iraq I think you have said similar things.

31:50I also think there's something else going on with Ukraine that's fueling this, which relates to the deeper identity crisis in our country that I described earlier. I think Ukraine has become a new religion, right, in the country. And it's substitute for purpose and meaning, just like climate ideology or wokeism is, and there's the flag. It's like a cruel state. I mean, you have people like waving these. Absolutely. You go to Washington, DC, at least I did in June. I was there for one of the Sunday shows where my wife and I are going for a walk. We saw more trans flags and Ukraine flags than we did American flags on a short walk that we took through Washington, DC or nation's capital.

32:26So I'm not, I'm not whining about this or being histrionic about it. I just think getting to the essence of what's going on. I think that's a different element of Ukraine that's different from even what we saw with being Amar -A -Rach. I don't think American exceptionalism is voicing our values on to anyone. I think American exceptionalism is about demonstrating through our example how America flourishes and is strong when we live by our own ideals. And I think the best way we give hope to the free world is by being that shining city on a hill, not going somewhere else and talking about it with tanks behind us while actually suffering here at home if you'd roam the streets of Kensington as I did a few weeks ago, you don't have to go to Baghdad to see the third world.

33:12And so that I think is I think a big loss of where we are today in the country. When you're president, Putin invades Ukraine, you would sit back, not give any armaments, and let them roll in. Here's what I would do. I would actually be proactive in doing a deal. And I've been very clear about the deal I would do. Trump has said he would do a deal in 24 hours, he didn't say what it was. I believe there's a deal to be done, but I also believe it's important to be clear about what the contours of that deal would be. I would freeze the current line. Let's take the status quo right now. So I can answer your question or I can answer starting from the present.

33:48If you don't, I could, I could start the press. I mean, the obvious is maybe put NATO, take NATO off the table and avoid the whole thing, but now we're, that's what I was saying. Yeah, we're playing out of history. So maybe it's better to talk about what's happening now. Yeah, I was starting to present, right? Because I don't think that we would have, if I was president, I don't think we would have gotten to the point of those things rolling in. Angela Merkel made some disastrous comments. Putin made a hard demand. We would have said hard -node Ukraine joining NATO and that would have been that there would have been no tanks rolling.

34:12And Putin made the press. Let's talk about the press. Let's talk about the NATO off the table. Putin may have still invaded. We don't know. I don't think so, but we can't, you know, those are counterfactuals that we can, you know, we're not going to have one side or the other being able to prove that, right? So let's talk about the present. Right now, let's say I'm US president. I would freeze the current lines of control. We have a precedent for doing this, the Korean War, Korean War style armistice. That does give Putin most of the Donbass region. That's beyond the pale of what many are willing to accept in either party, but I think any deal, someone has to win, everyone has to win, something out of the deal.

34:49I would further then give that assurance that NATO will not admit Ukraine to NATO. But there's a requirement in return. The biggest requirement is that Russia has to exit its military partnership with China. There's a 2001 treaty. It's called the Treaty of Good Neighborliness and Cooperation, military cooperation between the two countries that Xi Jinping and Putin ratcheted it up to the so -called Strategic No Limits Partnership in 2022. That is why China is now coming, by the way, to Russia's aid. I personally believe we are absolutely sending Putin into Xi Jinping's arms in a way that's a mistake.

35:28I would also require that Putin remove his nuclear weapons from Kaliningrad that we take any Russian military presence in the U .S. and the Western Hemisphere off the table, Venezuela, Cuba, Nicaragua. I think this is a deal that Putin would do if we paired it with reopening economic relations with Russia, which I would do. Because I think Putin does not, and I can give you some evidence for this, but I think Putin does not enjoy being Xi Jinping's little brother. And so I think that this is actually an opportunity, and I have to confess I'm a guy who sees our foreign policy prism through the prism of believing that China is the top long run threat that we face.

36:03And so most of my foreign policy views and national security views, even on topics that are apparently unrelated to China, I still see it through that prism. But this one isn't a far leap because China is literally in a military treaty with Russia and coming to their aid. I would use the Ukraine war and end to the Ukraine war as a way to bifurgate the Russia -China relationship and divide basically dissolve that relationship. And then actually that's our best way and most effective step towards deterring Shishin Ping from going after Taiwan. Because right now Shishin Ping, you know, I think that there's a mistaken consensus view that the way he thinks about it is, oh, reason by analogy, rather than by actual analyzing of a situation, say, oh, well, he got that piece of land, and maybe I can go get this island.

36:49I don't think he reasons by analogy. I think he reasons by the cards he has in terms of hard power. So his bet is that the US won't want to go to war with two different allied nuclear superpowers at the same time. But if Russia is no longer in his camp, then Xi Jinping is going to have to think twice about going after Taiwan. So then I guess part of my broader Taiwan, the time of his spread. The other question there is, you wouldn't defend Ukraine. Would you have America and the allies defend Taiwan if it was invaded? I would at least until the US has achieved semi -conductor independence. So you would defend the press?

37:24And the time I think. Yeah. Because we depend on them for our modern way of life in a way that we don't on Ukraine. And then the latter part of this sounds a little crass to some people but I believe in being honest. I actually think that, yeah, I'll get to this point in a second but to answer your question, yes, until we've achieved semi -conductor independence. God, I believe we can achieve semi -conductor independence. Yeah, so it's not, your belief is not, hey, these are two democracies. They both deserve equal defense from the United States, Ukraine and Taiwan. It's, Ukraine doesn't have semi -conductors.

37:56We don't have a strategic need to defend them in Taiwan. So it's a lot more of a pragmatic cutthroat approach to foreign policy. It is. I, of course, you know, resist the characterization of cutthroat a little bit. I go back to the principle that David mentioned of what American exceptionalism is to me is that when America is strong and is flourishing and Americans are flourishing within America, we set the example for the free world of what is possible. And so my view is that, yes, at least until, until we're semiconductor self -sufficient. And I think things work out here where I think we can get there.

38:33So in the time here, we've got our semiconductors up and running. You'll let China roll into Taiwan, no big deal for you. I will say that I definitely evaluate that very differently than I do. That's super candid. But I thought some of that is important. Freeburn? Yeah, let me just ask. So Vivek, I mean, I think that your point is a really important one, which is that when we're happy at home, we can not to look for conflict abroad. That's almost a universal truth that's emerged from history. Human civilization has shown that when the people in the democracy in particular are happy at home, and certainly autocracies are quite different.

39:21Alexander the Great and Julius Caesar Augustus Caesar, I think he could go through history. But when you have a true democracy, you don't vote to go and you don't support the idea of conflict abroad if you're happy at home. But the counter is true, which is when you're unhappy at home, you tend to look for conflict abroad. And by some assessments, Redalio had this great book about this, the changing world order. I don't know if you if you read it. But you know, he makes this point about the internal strife leads to external conflict, which is why it felt like we were gonna go that way with Ukraine, Russia coming out of 21.

39:56So I wonder are we happy at home? We're not, and I want to ask another question tied to this. Why is Donald Trump leading in the polls? Because I think that the two go hand in hand. There is something that he represents, and there's something about his voice that I think echoes the sentiment of this populist unhappiness inside of this country today that manifests in a bunch of ways, one of which is the interest in and support for external conflict. But I don't know if you're up for kind of thinking about tackling the two questions together, but I love your take on that. Yeah, great question. I think you're Absolutely right.

40:34I mean you're extending a theme of where I talk about sort of domestic cultural annoyances as a symptom of a deeper vacuum in our national soul. I think that actually our projection and Focus abroad is a lot easier of a deflection away from the harder step of taking a long hard look in the mirror and asking ourselves about the health of our own nation today. And so I think it's a deep question. I think we're not healthy as a nation today. I think we suffer from deep -seated psychic insecurity, psychological insecurities. I think the economic stagnation, the fact that real wage growth isn't up for the bottom 99 % of the country.

41:11Now a lot of that I put at the feet of the federal reserve. There are a lot of other complex factors behind it, but a lot of this feeds into what you call populism. I don't, excuse me. I don't like the term either. by the way, just to be clear, I think that it's just imprecise. And it's a rubber that tries to catch too many things and it doesn't catch any of them enough. So yeah. Yeah. And you think what you're calling populism is actually a failure of our elites. Isn't that what's going on? We saw during COVID that all the health authorities did a horrible job, the CDC and the NIA. To turns out they were funding in a function research, which may have caused COVID in the first place.

41:49They were doing experiments on bat viruses. We almost certainly did cause. Yeah, exactly. So, you know, we keep finding out that the elites are supposed to be running the country and running these institutions are doing an absolutely horrible job. That's what the reaction is against. Then people come along and label a populism and say it's going to lead to fascism. It's like, come on, that is a way of protecting the people in power from accountability for the horrible job they're doing. It's a well said, absolutely. In the use of the word populism is almost stacking that debate in favor of saying that those grievances aren't legitimate.

42:24And so I think why is Donald Trump pulling it number one in the polls? Because people know the truth. I think those grievances are absolutely legitimate. Now I think the mood of the country has changed a little bit, including the mood of the hard conservative base has changed since 2015. I think there is now I think there is now a sense that what are we actually going to do about it? Are we are we going to go the direction of a national divorce? Maybe their divorce is one of these things that speaks itself into existence. Maybe applies at the same level of a nation, right? That's on the table.

42:57It's in the it's in the ether. I don't think most people, including in our hardcore America first base, I'm part of that base, I don't think want a national divorce. And so I think that the moment now calls for this why I'm in this race, this is actually why at this point, I couldn't have told you this in March, but at this point, I'm convinced we're actually going to be successful in this. This is what the unique fusion we're going to require is not somebody showing up saying hope, kumbaya, let's move forward, compromise, hold hands and declare it's morning again in America. No, that ain't going to work.

43:31But I think it requires recognizing the legitimacy of those grievances, not as lip service. I believe for the same reason, sexism, many of those grievances are legitimate. They're grounded in truth, but too say as I often say to the lab, hardship is not the same thing as victimhood. And we're not going to choose victimhood. We're going to choose recognition of truth as our best path to heal over whatever's happened and then to move forward. That's why I've come out and been very vocal about the fact that I would pardon Trump of each of the two indictments that have already been brought. And if the J6 indictment is brought against him, I would do the same thing.

44:09I I think that we have to be able to recognize the truth of our past grievances of our fellow Americans and actually not just pay lip service to it, but feel into it and acknowledge the reality of them. I think that's then the table stakes of then meeting a demand that many in our grassroots conservative base have. I'm one of them. A desire to also move forward is one nation. And I think both of those elements are going to be required. They don't go together. I think there are people in the Republican primary who offer each of those on their own. Vivek, this is whoever's successful going to have to offer both.

44:46This morning there was an opinion piece I'm assuming you read it by Rich Lowry, Chief of the National Review, published on Politico, Get Ready for the Vivek Ramaswami moment in which I would say he's fairly a few serves about the campaign you're running, right? I mean, would you agree? Like, if you assume you said it? Yeah. So there was a really yeah, so really take it that way. Did you read the piece? I mean, I thought there was some really abusive Oh really? A few so he loves you. Yeah. No, he said he doesn't love me actually. He doesn't love you But he said so I think he said some complimentary things that you're about your campaign about your character But said there's no way you're gonna win and win for president.

45:23Well, you went from under 1 % I think now the latest policy was how you above 5 % and we're in the very early Hennings here, right? I think there's one that just came I mean, yeah, there's something that have you know bounce a little higher than that But yeah, you're a little higher for the first debate. The thing that my bike's done, let me just state this as a observer and then you can react to it, is that you have kind of inserted yourself in the debate on every issue, you know, every day as it comes up. I mean, you're kind of living off the land as a candidate, not out there with just kind of a traditional stump speech, but you're finding a way to insert yourself into the debate every day on social media.

45:59I see it, right? I mean, you post a tweet that will hit the nerve of whatever the issue is going viral that day, which means that you'll go viral. And so for months, I've been seeing your tweets go super viral. And so it's not surprising to me that your candidacy is starting to catch on in that way. What's remarkable to me is that other candidates can't do it. I mean, when you first started doing it, I was kind of like, okay, this is obvious and easy. Of course, this is what you would do. But other candidates have not really done that for whatever reason. So I mean am I I mean my perspective yeah, I'm my perspective on that because if we use it I'm like it is when you accuse us of creating a banking crisis, but other than that Yeah, I do want to close the loop on that one We either do it on air or off actually No, let's go do right now.

46:47Yeah, you know, so on for the other candidates not doing it's it's Anyway, that's less interesting. It's fine. I would be maybe they'll do it I think it's not running it through a filter, right? Because I think the traditional political thing is, and here's what's gonna happen to me as a consequence. I'm gonna eat the consequence of this, right? Everything comes at a cost, there's no free lunch. I'm gonna say something in real time that reflects my honest instincts, that's my whole strategy, right? People can tell the difference, but then I'm gonna change my mind on one out of a hundred things.

47:16Okay? And that's just gonna happen, right? And it's gonna be open to that and eat my words. And, you know, I'm gonna do it at some point. And that's the trade -offs we're making, is that I'm not running it through the filters. I'm not making up what I believe. I'm telling you actually to the contrary, what I truly believe. But if I'm doing it really that rapidly in response to what's happening, I think people appreciate that, but I'm gonna eat my words at some point. And that's okay. In response to new information, you're in response to new information, or sometimes even in response to reflection, right?

47:44So that's gonna be a gap. Basically, because it's less filtered, that's what you're saying. You might make a gap. Do you want to close the loop on this other thing? Yeah, do you think Jason caused a banking crisis by using all caps, so it's when he tweeted. Yes or no? I did not. I did not. I let me. I can't tweet on a Saturday night call. The bank run. I did not say, I never said that either, but we did go at it pretty hard. I think actually, I think there's a chance, we might still disagree, Dave, but I think that I'm talking to Zach here, but. Yeah. So, so I actually talked to a lot of friends who were in the position of running companies that had some amount of cat and we talked through this like this specific situation and then it dawned on me Where and it might it's not it's not necessarily we're gonna agree at the end of this But there's a chance that we might actually Which is this so In the lead up to this before that Friday I was already against Any governmental intervention here let this play out why?

48:46right? Because like, let's put aside all the histrionics, do the math on it. And I remember, there's a little hazy now, right? So on the facts, but I think it's approximately right. And you correct me if you have up to date facts on this. But I think it's approximately right. If everybody had run and gotten their money out, I think it would have been like 94 cents on the dollar that everybody would have walked out with, right? And so what happened on Friday is in this part where I want to potentially build a bridge here, the part that what happened on Friday was that Friday was the government, I see it otherwise, froze the ability.

49:23The calendar. Yeah, the Friday morning. You're much closer to this details, but the calendar regulator froze the ability to take out deposits. So I am more sympathetic to the point that once the government's gotten involved, because that really is then like, you know, kind of like an aircraft moment where you're CEO of a company or a CFO and you want to get your money out, and then you can't now it's panic, right? Right. And so I think that there's a version of the world where the version of the world I wanted. I was talking about this before you and I were talking directly to each other. I just think this should have stayed out of it.

49:5594 cents on the dollar. Not bad, which is why the public didn't actually end up directly using taxpayer funds was because the bank was healthy in its own right. That's what that's the worst result a bank run would have produced there, which actually should have been heartening in terms of confidence. Let me give you an insight that maybe you weren't as close to as the rest of us were, which is on all the boards that all of us sit on. All of the boards were discussing independent of this show and the conversations and the media. We need to move all of our money out of all of the bags that aren't one of the top three and move all of our money into the top three.

50:28So the point is a shame. Which is a shame. And that's the point of view that we all saw was that there was a mad rush in corporate America and startup land in small business land. This isn't even VC land. This is like Like everything from the non -profits that we sit on the board of to the laundromat, to the dry cleaner, to every business. I got you. I have so much money in a small bank was saying, I got to move my money into a big bank now. And that's where the whole banking system has put at risk. And that is why we all universally felt that it was important to highlight that the federal government needs to step in and reassure and rebuild confidence in the small banks in this country.

51:07Just the deposits. Not at the only. And the only way to do that was to say your deposits are safe. And that was it. And that was the point because the panic that was going on in small business land in America, which as you know, employees half of the people in this country was at risk. And that those people, those small businesses were fearful and they were looking to rush to the big banks. And that would have cratered the small banks around the country. So, and I think it's a difference in vantage point, right? If you have discussion about populism and everything else. Yeah. I don't think Dave Sax caused the bank run anymore that I'm causing populist waves in this country.

51:41Again, it was Jason with his cat's lock, but yeah, go ahead. I know, but I think I think the reality is people literally have tweeted that I caused the bank runs insane, but there's a technical there's a technical point I'll make and then we'll get to the deeper part. The technical point to close loop is I think Dave, I find your position more reasonable given that it's after Friday when the California regulators came in and locked it. But in my version of the world, I would have just said, stay the heck out, government of any kind, $94 cents on the dollar, there's a 6 % haircut, and we discover the market actually works, and we avoid playing favoritism in the first place.

52:18And I say this as somebody who, and this is where you understand my vantage point, have been a long time opponent of the creation of the notion of SIDS, systemically important banks in the first place as an opponent to the bailouts of 2008 as somebody who's running for US president not to lead in cremental reforms, but a sort of revolution in the kind of restoration in the integrity of both capitalism and democracy that I think is actually the best antidote to what we're called. Would you try to deconstruct the SIDS? Well, I mean, give the status quo where we are. I think that I would have to offer a credible enough basis to make sure that people know that if there's a system, so -called previously known as a systemically important bank that fails that the public still not going to be there for them, but in a way that a route allows for enough of an unburdened banking sector that we have resilience in terms of exactly who can actually fill that void.

53:10And I think that there is a discursive impact on, I don't think it has to be, and this where I made me disagree a little bit, and this is a small scale disagreement, I don't think it has to be a state of the world where we just assume consumers are dumb and don't take dissident account. Now consumers are in part dumb because we treat them as dumb, right? And so it's like a Heisenberg effect, right? You can't, you know, you assume you're following what I mean is you, you know, basic principle and physics, you can't, you know, observe the spin and not affect the spin of the electron at the same time.

53:40I think the same thing applies to a relationship between the government and its people. And so I think part of the reason that people, I think I feel the same way about the FDA, by the way. I think people would be far more scrutinizing of the medicines they took if it didn't come with the crowding out effect of that individual level of self -responsibility and due diligence that the government wasn't doing. But now we live in the worst of all worlds where we have neither. The government's neither actually protecting nor actually providing the space for individual responsibility. I just wanted to hear, you know, you make a statement, you collect data, one in a hundred, you say you'll change your mind.

54:15And I just want to understand with all the data, the past, the present, and probably who knows, every incremental day we see something new, what is the full 360 degree view that Vivek Ramaswami has of Donald Trump? Full 360 degree view. Got it. Yeah. I actually haven't had a space to articulate this yet. So I think this is useful. So my view is that he was a successful president, measured by reviving the economy. It's an example of President Peirier. How, why do I say that? Reviving the economy, growing the American economy, I think that recognizing and speaking to and partially addressing concerns that had been historically unaddressed by both major political parties, we did not enter a major war.

55:04We were on the brink of major conflict with North Korea, on the precipice and other parts of the world. ISIS was a thing. It is, you know, by, I don't get it exists, but it's by large not the same threat that it was after his presidency It was when he took over These are major accomplishments, right? I think the immigration crisis I think is far worse today Precisely because Biden's in office and not Trump. So I believe he was a successful president That's view number one view number two. He has an effect on people About 30 % of this country that I think becomes psychiatrically ill, when he is the US president.

55:44I think he's just a fact, right? Agreeing with things that they otherwise wouldn't have agreed with because that's about 30 % number of applies on our pot too. One in four. I think it's just a reality is, people lose their ability to process information, people lose the ability to think independently. It's like a demonic possession that happens in this country. of about as best I can tell about 30 % of the country. And I think that's not good for the country. And we can debate who's to blame for that or whatever, but I'm just stating it in observation that I feel pretty strongly about. And so I think most of Trump's policies were good.

56:20Do I have some policy disagreements with them? Of course I do. It would be weird if any two people agreed on 100 % of things. I would re -enter the CPTPP, he exited the TPP. I think his exit of the TPP gives us a stronger negotiating position with Malaysia and Japan to fix some of the micro things that we might have wanted. China is not in the TPP, that's part of the path to actually declare economic independence from China. If it comes to that, we could go into a lot of different details. I would have rescinded the affirmative action executive order that Lyndon signed that I asked Trump's people why they didn't.

56:48They said it was a political hill. They didn't want to die on. I'd shut down the Department of Education. We can go on, but broadly, he was a successful president with whom I mostly agree on his broad policy vision, and especially his handling of foreign policy. What did he get wrong and what and was the election stolen? Yeah, so I mean I gave you like small examples of what he got wrong, but I think the real care the real thing that he got wrong. I'm not sure that getting wrong is the even framing. It's just a fact that 30 % of this country became psychographically ill and you're the leader of this country you're leading a nation.

57:22And so you can decide whose fault that is, but I believe leaders are ultimately judged by their results. And for whatever reason, even when I'm saying the same things that Trump often did as a matter of policy or foreign policy or domestic economic policy. Maybe because people don't know me broadly, but I don't think that's it actually. I don't think I'm having that effect on people. And I think that that's why I'm in this race to carry forward unapologetic George Washington America first policies and to do so more successfully, but also in a way that unites the country around that vision, more so than Donald Trump ever did or could in the second turn, was the election stolen.

58:04Here's the sense in which I think the election was stolen in a data -driven way. I have not seen any data to suggest that the ballot fraud or anything like that would have been sufficient to overturn the ballot count of the ballots. I've not seen any evidence to that effect. What I do see is hard evidence that people in this country would have elected a different president. Who's that? I like, who's that? This is Tali. This is child number five. Number five, she is cute. But number one in our hearts. Oh, you could even get saved. That's nice. All right. So, what's your name? I was saying, I'm Tali.

58:45Tom and Tali. Hey, I'm away from my sons these past few days. So I, you know, I'm happy for you. Hopefully we'll be with our little guys soon. You know, what I was saying is, let me get to the punchline. The sense in which the election was stolen was the Hunter Biden laptop story and the systematic suppression of information. I think that there is no doubt, that is no doubt. I think that the evidence strongly suggests that Trump would have been of database that had access to that information. And I think that that is something that we ought to learn from and I think that it does cast a lot of doubt and frustration on the legitimacy of the election.

59:26Let me double click on that. You seem to have said on other programs, I've heard you at least a half dozen times talk about deep state conspiracy trying to frame Donald Trump, federal indictment of the 37 criminal charges for the stolen documents. We're using to give them back. You got the New York case, 34 more felony counts. We're about to have another one drop on January 6th. You got the Georgia where he tried to get people to get 10 ,000 more votes. You got the New York case where CFOs go to jail. You got a guilty of sexual assault. And then you got the TDAJ as suing the Trump Organization.

1:00:06Of these seven are all seven, a deep state conspiracy. I think it's a collective anaphylactic immune response to an antigen that challenged the system. So, in no case did he do anything wrong? You think all seven of these cases he's got free and it's just that I would be really clear about something. I'm running for US president in this race against Donald Trump because I'm the best position to lead this nation forward. And I think he's guilty of any of these seven. I would have made very different judgments than he did, but I think criminalizing bad judgments, especially when done so against political opponents in the midst of a presidential election, is an awful judgment for a US president and the Department of Justice underneath him to make.

1:00:49So I never thought that - So you think that the Department of Justice and the person he put in charge of it, they're all conspiring and that he didn't do anything wrong? Well, there's a lot in that statement, right? Sure. Does he do things that I think are reprehensible that I wouldn't have done? Yeah. I think so. I mean, as a lot of acts as they exist. Absolutely. Do I think the Biden and a lot of other politicians who have come have done things that I would have done differently and actually think were wrong decisions? Absolutely. But do I think that conflating a bad judgment with a breakage of law is a risk to our future?

1:01:26I think it is. Do you think he said those people to, I mean, you want to just go to the jury sex? I don't think he did. No. No. I think I think I think I mean to march down there and when he told the proud boys to stand by and stand back You don't think that he was inciting them Let me just say I'm not here to defend the Donald Trump's behavior. I'm running for US President I think we just I think you're opinion on it matters. Yeah, but my opinion on this matters Yes, I want to be very clear about that the hat that I'm wearing. I would not have done what he did but He was very clear. I mean you look at the transcripts and you run this by as I have first amendment scholars just to check my I mean, inciting violence is not protected speech by the First Amendment.

1:02:05There's no sense in which when he tells people to peacefully make their way to the Capitol, that does not meet any Supreme Court test for what constitutes inciting violence in this country. I think that let's just take the New York example. I mean, some of the stuff that details actually now... Let's take the Oathkeeper's one because that found you. Well, I'm in the storm road. Let me get this one first. Hold on, let me get my first. Oathkeeper's Founder, Stuart Rhodes, got 18 years. Do you think that the Justice Department did that? because they're trying to frame Trump and Trump told the oath keepers to stand by and to stand back.

1:02:37Do you think he incited the oath keeper, Jesser now? Based on the facts that I have seen, I've seen no evidence of that. You're delusional. Okay. Yeah, I've seen it. I mean, it's delusional. Look, hold them to stand by. Okay, so there's also an indictment that hasn't been brought. So I've offered my opinion, the first two indictments that have been brought against him. Right? Right. I read all 49 pages in the last one. I'm responsive to facts. On the first two indictments, I think they're absolutely politically based in... And I can go through the... If you're interested, we can go into the specifics of it.

1:03:10I mean, I'll take you at your word. You know, on New York, right? I mean, I'll just give you a line on each, right? Okay. In New York, let's take a fact that it's a state offense that was upcharged to a felony and outside the statute of limitations only by tying it to an alleged federal crime. and what was that federal crime failing to report a hush money payment to a porn star as a campaign contribution. There would be a stronger case for using and paying hush money and using campaign funds to do it that that was a federal campaign finance law violation than not actually counting it. So so many counts that's a politicized prosecution against anybody else they wouldn't have brought it.

1:03:50Documents case. A 49 page indictment read it twice that does not once mention the presidential records act, the most relevant statute that talks about what the basis is for president to keep documents or not. And instead charges him, according to I think one of the most un -American laws in US history passed during World War I to silence World War I dissenters, including Eugene V. Debs, who Eugene V. Debs, who was actually put in prison, over this, I have long argued that that was a statute that should have long been, over, should have been rescinded. That's now being used to charge a crime rather than eat more precise crime.

1:04:26So I tend to be very responsive maybe to the point of frustration of being technical on these things, but I believe facts and law actually matter I think that if Trump was the best guy for the job I wouldn't be running in this race if Ronald Reagan were alive and well today I would not be running in this race God, so you're not a fan of this race or a reason I want to just go back to the Oh wait, I have a question. I have a question about these Trump scandals Do you think that - Which one of the seven? Well, I think do you think Trump should be indicted for Donald Trump Jr. being paid $83 ,000 a month to serve on the board of a Ukrainian energy company despite having no energy expertise?

1:05:03Oh, wait, that's Hunter. And his personal life being in crisis because he is a drug addict. Him getting that job three months after his father approved a and backed a coup against the Ukrainian government. Do you think that Donald Trump Jr. should be It investigated for that. And David, is this also after that Donald Trump then sends $200 billion of US taxpayer money to that very country after he's elected an office? I think that's the strongest of the scandals I've heard so far. So you believe Biden is a great character? Oh, I don't know. I'm a Hunter Biden, sorry. Well, it's just more on grifters.

1:05:39What do you think of Jared Kushner getting taking down two billion from the Saudis after he walked out of the White House? I don't have, that's not a matter that I have views on. Oh, he don't have views on that, but you got plenty of views on Trump. I got to, he's not in government. He's not in government. Okay, let's move on, Path Trump, because you, and this is a pretty great example of why I'm in this race. I'm telling you this, is there something about the existence of Donald Trump? Exactly. Can't get away from criminal behavior. Yeah, criminal behavior. Yeah, criminal behavior. And trying to still reach forward the agenda of this country, much of which was Trump's So Vivek, in order to win this candidacy, and the reason I brought up the political publication this morning, obviously there was a bit of tongue -in -cheek on the offusiveness, but the key point being made was you have no chance of winning, and that you shouldn't be in the race at all.

1:06:32Now, look, I'd like to... I think that was the thesis of the piece. That's very... But what's interesting is where it's coming from, right? It's coming from the establishment voice. And I think we'd like to hear just a little bit around your political strategy. What is your intention around building bridges and ties to the Republican establishment to support your candidacy here? Or does the Republican establishment largely sit on the sidelines right now and wait to see who emerges with this popular movement and who's out there? You're obviously running an incredible campaign on the road, very active, very vocal, and everyone says probably by far the most articulate and most thoughtful and most intelligent of the candidates in the race today.

1:07:15But lacking experience, lacking connections, not part of the establishment, and as a result, cast in this negative light consistently by the by these sorts of writers. So what is your strategy to win this race given the is it not important as Trump showed in the last election cycle to have those Republican establishment ties or are you going to be building bridges. And then my follow -up question is if you don't win, what are you going to do? Yeah, so let me address the first. It's basically in the camp that I don't think it's the voters that ultimately matter, not the people who have appointed themselves in the reigning establishment.

1:07:53It's not even the establishment anymore. It's an outdated establishment that I don't think actually is going to influence meaningfully the result of this election except for one respect, which is money, which I'll get back to. So the area where we're punching above our weight, right? Debates haven't even happened yet. At least in the last week, I'm third in most of the national polls. This is well ahead of even where we planned to be, right? We planned to be in third by November, December, ahead of the Iowa caucuses, ahead of New Hampshire, over perform expectations in both of those, use the momentum to then win the race.

1:08:25That was broadly the strategy with the debate stage as the way where I would steadily work my way into that. I think we're just now on a different curve where we might be in second place by then and by a smaller margin than people expected. I think the debate stage is critical. The campaign strategy is actually to combine the initial investment because I've lived the American dream I was able to make, but to combine that with a true grassroots uplift. We've got close to 70 ,000, maybe more. I have to check the exact numbers. Unique donors already. the former vice presidents or other candidates that are well on their way and struggling by some measures to get to 40 ,000, which is a threshold for the first debate.

1:09:04So our strategy is very much a grassroots strategy. I've done more campaign events than anybody in the Republican field. And so this is our strategy is very grassroots driven. So I'm punching above my weight in terms of events, unique donations, polling. The one area where I'm punching below weight is large scale donations. So we are not raising mass numbers of large check external funds yet into the campaign. My super PACs or I don't even know whatever they're independent expenditures. There's an entity that exists out there that's been affiliated with me has based on public reports that tiny amounts of money compared to those that are supporting and all in for candidates from Tim Scott to Ron D'Sanis.

1:09:49And that's also a reality, right? I think that comes with competitive advantages and disadvantages and their two sides at the same coin. I think I am at liberty. Total liberty. I feel totally unconstrained to pursue the strategy that David mentioned earlier, which is that I'm reacting in real time to what I believe. Have you been surprised by the lack of clarity maybe of the DeSantis campaign in really creating A pathway through Trump and if you are surprised, what do you think he's doing wrong if you have to critique it? Yeah, I'm not surprised because, you know, I know him and I think he's a good execute, right?

1:10:31I think he has been, oh, I disagree with some other people on this. I think he's been quite an effective governor. I think that when you're talking about, and Scott Walker in the last cycle was quite an effective governor. And for the same reasons that people believe Scott Walker was going to be the runaway nominee last time around I think that people naturally gravitate people think they want somebody who has done something as an effective Executor but when it comes to the US presidency, I think it's a unique role where what matters is actually having a vision for where we are going right and so I'm not With I don't without saying things that are interpreted as being mean about somebody else or not I know all of these people have known them for a long time.

1:11:12I've shared stages with them over the course of my Wilking Book Tour and Nation of Victims Book Tour, I'm not surprised with how things are going in this race. You know, as we expected to be where we are in November, we're here in July, I'm not surprised that we're doing well. I understand how audiences across this country responded to my message in Wilking. I'm not surprised that they're continuing to respond well to Trump. I've just nothing surprising about where we are in this race right now. And so you're not surprised because DeSantis is a competent administrator, but that is a great job as governor, but not the bill of goods for the president.

1:11:51I'm really an appointed disgrace from... Well, I mean, look, don't be so sad. But to be honest with you, I think there's a lot of truth to what you said. Don't you think part of it, though, is that Trump has singled out the scientists as the one candidate who he's gonna beat the hell out of? I mean... I don't think so, David, actually. I'll tell you why. It's... He's reasonable, right? He has not attacked you. Trump's actually said good things about you. Yeah, he's not attacked anybody else in this race. Yeah, exactly. Have you spent time with Trump? I know all these guys. I know all of you spent time with Trump.

1:12:19When's the last time you talked to him? Not a serious amount of time. I've spent more time with Desanis than I have with Trump. Have you spent more time with Trump? I've spent more time with Trump. I once, yeah, there's a long before I was running for president, but we had dinner. We were just people who had reached out and tried to build bridges with you. We've turned into so much of a state. I mean, most of us when we intersect each other were speaking at the same forums, the NRA, the family leader thing that Tucker did backstage. We have interactions with all the other candidates. And I like to think I'm friendly with everybody.

1:12:46I don't know how, I haven't talked to Ron recently, but I've talked to him more before. But I think the reality is, what you said is definitely true. And I'm not in this to be a political analyst, right? I'm in this to state what my beliefs are, say who I am and people can vote for me or not. But I actually do think, I don't think that Trump's commentary on the other candidates is having so much of an effect. I think voters, many people who were maybe initially behind the Sannos, I know many of them are people who are part of that traditional establishment. They didn't want that most of them didn't want to have nothing to do with Trump, but decided that was the next best thing.

1:13:21So I don't think that Trump's attacks are going to persuade them one way or another. I think comes down to the study of what happened in 2016. Scott Walker, great governor, really respected guy. I like what he's doing in his post -elected office life as well. But everybody has a role to play in reviving this country. And I think we all have to look ourselves in the mirror and ask ourselves how are we going to make our unique contribution. And I think it's going to require governors who are effective implementers of a vision that makes their states thrive. I think governor says it's done a really good job of that.

1:13:54I think Christian Ome has done a really good job of that. I think there are people who hopefully will continue to have an impact on our culture outside of government altogether. There's a really important role for that, Jason. I think that's my answer to your other question, which I forgot to answer, which is that's what I'm going to do. Can I go back to two things that you mentioned just in passing, but I just want you to clarify your thoughts on them. One, as you said, you would abolish the Department of Education. I thought I'd never heard anybody say that really. So could you just expand on that, what you mean?

1:14:25And then the second, I'd love for you to talk about some of these Supreme Court decisions that have come in the last little while, specifically the abortion debate, the affirmative action debate, the rights of businesses to not service people whose ideology they disagree with. And then, sorry, the third point is maybe use that last part as a jumping off point. I'd love for you to understand your position on LGBTQ, the role of the trans movement, what's happening in schools. Those are the three kind of big junky areas is that I think are worth talking about if you can just give a few minutes. Yeah, there's a lot there.

1:15:04Yeah. So, so let me, if I skip over something and bring me back. So, Department of Education, I think the federal government is not as a factual matter directly involved in education. I think it is a, therefore, a deadweight waste for money to cycle from the taxpayers to the federal Department of Education to then disversed those funds inefficiently as they do, tilting the scales to four year college degrees over choices that people might have otherwise made that are better choices for them. Vocational training, one year, two year programs. Using it as a cudgel, and this relates to the ladder issue you asked about, to tell local schools they don't get that money unless they're adopting.

1:15:42What I certainly view as toxic racial and gender ideology based agendas, they use the money as a cudgel to do it. So I've said that that department that spends about $80 billion of taxpayer money, I'll shut it down. Tonight in New Hampshire, I'm laying out the anatomy of exactly how we'll shut it down. and then return that money to the states to the people put it in parents pockets. Very specifically, you have to be a state that has a school choice program in order to receive that Department of Education shut down dividend. I think that if you're in such a state, I would also believe that those states need to write their teachers union, teachers contracts in a way that stop teachers from joining teachers unions, which I think have been a destructive force on our public schools.

1:16:23If you're unionizing against the public, think about who you're unionizing against, the very kids you're supposed to represent. Now we have transparency, we have choice. If you teach it in the classroom, put it online. And then there's an interesting fact in this country where I think you guys will appreciate how bizarre this fact really is. There's not only like a failed positive correlation. There is a negative correlation, an inverse correlation between how much money per student, a public school spends, and the actual outcomes that that school achieves for its students. So, in my version of school choice, my preferred version, it would not just be that parents get to get these vouchers and educational savings accounts to send their kids to some other school.

1:17:09That's part of the story. It's the first step. But I think any parent who moves to a school that spends less per student, which we know based on the data is actually all a sequel of better performing school as it relates to achievement. Should be able to take half the delta with them. So to take Chicago or Pennsylvania, spending 35 -40 ,000 dollars per student, 15 miles away of a school spending 15 -20 ,000 dollars per student, I think they should be able to take half the difference that 10 -15 ,000 dollar half that difference of the 20 ,000 say $10 ,000 they take with them. You run the math on normal investment returns.

1:17:44You're talking about a quarter million dollar plus graduation gift when that kid graduates from 12th grade. So you tell me which is a better use of money. It's not even close. And I think the head of the state is a better idea. The great idea. That's a great great idea. You come up with that idea or did is that phenomenal? I think it's actually another guy who's an arbitrageur who's a friend but who shares similar instincts and like I'm like a I'm a value investor. I believe in a great incentive which makes a lot of sense in the world. Yeah, okay, let's move past education Yeah, I want to talk about the specific of the gay and the trans issue two questions one do you think it's normal to be gay and You have any problem with people being gay and then no I do not have a lot of space is accepted No problem.

1:18:27So then the second yeah, of course talking about trans I heard you on meet the press say that trans was a mental disorder which yeah, you know It was in the DSM for I guess or whatever the latest one was just come to you Yeah, just do a couple years ago and now it's changed So maybe explain why you think differently about those two things. One, you think it's fine to be gay, but you think it's a mental disorder in all likelihood if people want to transit. Yeah. So, you know, I want to leave you with a good sense of where I'm at on these issues, right? So I think it's at least curious that we take the LGBTQIA plus value set and vision for what the movement stands for.

1:19:09It does require you to adopt simultaneously conflicting beliefs at once, right? The gay rights movement was predicated on the idea, which I'm quite sympathetic to, that the sex of the person that you're attracted to is hardwired on the day you're born. But now with the T component of that same movement that now says your own gender is completely fluid over the course of your own life. And I think if we're not going to observe the tension between these two observations, I I think that we're purposefully having our heads stuck in the sand. I think what's happening in many cases is somebody who claims to be trans is really just gay.

1:19:43And part of what we're saying is it's not okay to be gay. So to answer your first question, part of what the trans movement is effectively telling people is that it's not okay to be gay. You know who else says that? Aram. Actually, Aram is a nation that if you are gay, they force you to undergo gender conversion surgery. It's not that different than what's baked into the ideological premise of much of the trans movement here. And so I just want you to come for the fact there's a lot of people in the GOP who will offer surface level stuff You I mean I've spent a lot of time thinking about this Gender dysphoria is what I've said is a mental health disorder I've been very precise.

1:20:17Let's take the intersex case out of it. Client felt for syndrome. Jacob's syndrome Right, client felt or is xxy Jacob syndrome is xxy. Why these are ultra rare They exist. They are real. For the purpose of our discussion, though it's under the broad trans umbrella, I'm going to take that out of it because that's not a mental health disorder. That's a genetic reality. But now let's go back to the conflicting supposition. There's no gay gene yet. The sex of the person you're attracted to, we accept for civil rights purposes as hard -rired and the day you're born. Yet there are X and Y chromosomes.

1:20:51And yet your own biological sex slash gender is now completely fluid over the course of your life. There's attention there. And I think that attention is best explained by the way we've treated it for most of our national history, for most of our medical history, all the way through actually I think the DSM -5, not just the four, as a mental health condition. And I think the compassionate thing to do is not to affirm, especially when it's a kid, to affirm a kid's confusion. I think the compassionate thing to do is to recognize that there's some other psychological struggle manifesting itself in this form.

1:21:25And it is cruel to affirm that kid's confusion. I met to you by a firm surgery or hormone therapy. Hormone therapy, exactly. I met to you. You would imagine when you're an adult 18 years old. Yes. And you would back to when I met you're a New Hampshire literally like where I am right now. Who are in their 20s that badly regret undergoing double mastectomy is one of them underwent a hysterectomy. Both of them underwent puberty block. So even if the parents and doctors are buried with it, But you would say they can't make that decision for the child. Just like you can't get a tattoo before the age of 18 in most, what we say is a decision that you are likely to regret many, in many cases at least, likely to regret later in life, we let you make that decision as an adult.

1:22:09And I do believe we live in a free society. As an adult, you're free to identify how you want, a free to where what you want, but kids aren't the same as adults. And even among adults, there's a difference. between living your life freely and expecting that everybody else changes their linguistic and traditional understandings in sports and traditional understandings in locker rooms and traditional understandings in language. That's a difference. And so I don't believe in a tyranny of the majority, but I don't believe in a tyranny of the minority either. Do you think this topic is over indexed on right now and is it really a top -of -its presidency?

1:22:47or do you think this is like some sort of culture wars thing that this actually isn't that important to the national discussion should be held privately by currents. I appreciate you asking that Jason I think I feel this way about a lot of the topics right from the actual we'll be sure you're in position on that I think like why is this the most important topic yeah this is interesting because it's a symptom it's interesting only to the extent that it is a symptom of the deeper void, of the deeper vacuum. And I think the mental health epidemic is not limited to gender dysphoria, anxiety, depression, drug usage, fentanyl, suicide.

1:23:23These, let's have the conversation more holistically, these are symptoms of the deeper void. And all I care about is running through these topics without somebody holding the line of defense by stopping us to get to a discussion about that void, to say, no, this is exactly what that kid is, and you're wrong to think about as a mental health disorder. I think that's unproductive because it stops us from getting the truth. Over the years, it's been the case that young people tend to orient to being countercultural or anti -establishment. Generally speaking, it's part of the psychological seasoning of a human to be against the parents against the system and ultimately to create independence for oneself.

1:24:05That's typically counter to what came before it. and it has manifested in every generation with this point of view that there is some psychological torment that has taken over the young people that is causing them to act out from beatnicks, to hippies, to punks, to goth, to emo, and every generation had some cultural representation. Is your point of view that gender dysphoria is the current manifestation of that pattern of behavior that we've seen over the generations? That's not exactly my view. My view is that it's not limited to young people. I think there's something unique going on in America right now It's true of all of us Sometimes some of this comes from self -reflection, but I think it's It's true for most of us That we're hungry To be part of something bigger than ourselves Yet we cannot even answer What it means to be an American or what it means to believe in God or what God is And we have come up with new false idols that substitute for that.

1:25:10You want to talk about generational history. I mean, Moses by the time he comes down from the mountaintop, you got the golden calf. Israelites are lost in the desert. They say they want to go back and be ruled by the Pharaoh. Yeah, I think the historical trend I'm talking about is a slightly different one and maybe has a longer arc to it than the one you're talking about. But at my diagnosis is not specific to young people. It's specific to where we are in a national history. When like a bunch of blind bats in a cave, right, how's the bat figure out where it is? It sends out echolocation signals, sonar signals, that come back and say, this is where I am.

1:25:45I think we human beings are wired to do the same thing. And the pillars, the walls, the fixed points of truth from family to faith, to patriotism, to hard work, to individual pride, the things that used to ground us when those things disappear. We're now sending out these signals and then nothing's coming back. And so we're making up new pillars instead. And maybe one of them is a trans flag. And maybe one of them is a Ukraine flag. And maybe one of them is a climate cult. And maybe one of them is a racial intersectional hierarchy. And maybe one of them is fentanyl. But I think that that's, I do have a deep point of agreement with you and Jason that I think we sometimes get too hung up.

1:26:26Both sides, maybe Republicans, a lot so right now, on the symptoms without getting to a deeper discussion of the deeper cancer, the deeper void that we need to fill. And that's what I'm interested in. Shamaop brought up the Roe v. Wade issue. I'm wondering what do you think is the most productive path forward for the country in terms of reasonable right to choose versus right to life argument? Because you personally feel that abortion should be banned on my correct? I am personally pro -life. You pro -life. So you don't really really want to be able to get an abortion under any circumstances or do you have rape in society as someone who's running for US president responding to the question about the Supreme Court case?

1:27:07Is that Roe vs Wade was correct to be overturned on constitutional grounds? Okay, funny. It was made up just for argument. It's only your argument. It is, but it leads also to the path for moving forward, which is that I think the federal government should stay out of it. And so there's a discussion amongst Republicans. I think I'm the only Republican candidate in this field who has come out and said that I would not support a federal abortion ban of any time unprincipled ground because To me that I am grounded in constitutional principles And I think there's no legal basis for the federal government to legislate here the 10th amendment says that part of the American experiments We have diversity across states and I think this is a state issue now at the level of the states I'm personally a believer that unborn life is life.

1:27:55I think that the pro -life movement needs to, we need to walk the walk. When it comes to being pro -life, what do I mean? I'm pro -controspection. I'm pro -adoption. I'm pro -child care. I'm pro -more sexual responsibility for men. For God's sake, we live in an era of genetic tests. We can actually put more responsibility on men. This doesn't have to be and should not be a men's versus women's rights issue. And nobody on our side is really talking about these issues. I do because I don't think this has to be as divisive as we made it out to be. But I can almost prove to you that more people in this country share my instincts than are willing to admit it.

1:28:29There's a case, you know, Clarence Thomas brought it up of pregnant woman walking down the street. She's assaulted. The unborn child dies as a result. I haven't met and I have many liberal friends. Most of my friends growing up have been, you know, have different political persuasions than I have now. I haven't been a single one of my liberal friends or otherwise who says that that Criminal does not deserve liability For that debt and so I just think more of a leave to the state if one state wants to ban it They can ban it if another state wants to have a 24 -week rule. They could have a 24 -week rule That's that you I like other Republican candidates I will not be signing a federal abortion ban on constitutional states and I'm hoping to persuasion if some legal scholar Convinces me that the US Constitution gives the federal government the authority to sign that in the law, so be it.

1:29:21But I have not been so convinced. And I think many other principled constitutionalists haven't been convinced, even though the other Republican field has all, I don't know if I better can't have this racist, then they would sign one. What is your thought on just the gross tonnage of dollars that we spend on the military and defense and espionage and internal external security and then when those bump up against civil liberties? just give us your kind of framing on how you think about those sets of issues around national level security but where and personal privacy. So I'm a, I, I, for more of my life than not, I identified as a libertarian that a conservative and I still have all of those libertarian instincts in my core.

1:30:04It's just that I care about more issues than libertarians care about because libertarianism is all about the relationship between the state and the individual and I actually do care about culture and the fabric of the society outside of government too. It's a long way of saying I'm deeply skeptical of the national security establishment. I was deeply skeptical of the Iraq War at the time. I think I am today in retrospect. I was deeply skeptical that prisoners in Guantanamo Bay should have been denied constitutional due process rights when that's exactly what enshrines the justice system that we otherwise believe in.

1:30:36I would pardon Julian Assange. I would pardon Edward Snowden. I've committed to a long list of partings of people who have taken steps to expose corruption that we otherwise would not have seen in this country. And I think part of the reason why there's a weird corporate analogy here, we're talking about companies and finding their purpose and coinbase. I think there's a version of that going on in the US military. I think the US military has lost its sense of purpose, actually. And so my view is the purpose of the US military is to secure Americans on American soil, to make sure that we, when necessary, win wars and more importantly, deter wars.

1:31:15And I think part of what you see in the loss of, you know, people complain about wokeness and the military, et cetera. These are against symptoms of a deeper loss of purpose of an institution, not that much different than a company. But my view is I'm not in the same way with the immigration debate. I don't engage in this. What's the cap, you know, higher or lower? It's the wrong debate. Marit purpose. What are we achieving? I feel the same way about the military. It's not a higher, lower discussion. It's a what are we doing discussion? And I think there is a legitimate case for the US to have and continue to have the strongest military in the world.

1:31:48But I think that deputizing that military to fight wars that are really deflection tactics often for our own ailments at home, I think has been a mistake and we're at risk of making those same mistakes again right now, most pertinently in Ukraine, unless we learn from those past mistakes. I want to ask you about the division within the Republican Party on this specifically Ukraine. So at turning point, which you just spoke at, and I think you did very well in the straw pole there, you had Tucker interviewing Mike Pence asking, why should we prioritize Ukraine over our own cities that are increasingly broken down?

1:32:25You've got homeless people living on the streets. You've got this crisis of drug addiction. You've got rampant crime. You've got schools that are terrible. And yet Ukraine seems to be this fixation of the unaparty in Washington and Pence gave this totally dunderhead and answer something like that's not my concern. Which I guess his apologists said afterwards that well no he was talking about something else. He wasn't saying that American cities weren't his concern. Which even if you grant that was the case means that he wasn't really paying attention to Tucker's question. But then you also had Tim Scott say something it was definitely better phrase than what Pence said but basically said that he thought it was a good idea for us to be giving all this money to Ukraine because degrading Russia's military was a good deal for the United States.

1:33:18You know by which degrade I assume means killing Russian boys. I knew for Lindsey Graham say this sort of thing. Then I had this Republican polster named Patrick Rafini, who I didn't really know before, but he's apparently a Republican polster. He's got Slava Ukrainian as bio. I'm not quite sure what's motivating that, but he tweeted at me saying that Ukraine is the like number 17 on the list of GOP voter priorities despite efforts by the likes of Carlson and Saks to make it a thing. Notice how it almost never gets brought up on the trail unless Tucker is there. My response to him was to post a quote from Mitch McConnell saying that Ukraine is the number one priority of the GOP.

1:34:03And I'm like, you're making my point for me. I know that it's number 17 in the eyes of voters in our party in terms of what they think we should be focused on. But it's number one in the minds of Mitch McConnell and Pence and Scott and Mickey he hailey and you know Lindsey Graham these people are obsessed with this idea so i guess you know a what is your reaction to that be how are you gonna change this i mean it just seems like there's something fundamentally broken in our party when the base understands that we should not be focused on you can't just focused on our own borders our own cities as opposed to some far away lands borders and cities And then also in that same turning point poll, 95 % of the attendees of that conference were opposed to US involvement in Ukraine.

1:34:55It was the single highest number for anything they pulled on. I think Trump got like an 85 % approval. Oppositions to Ukraine got 95%. So clearly there is a fundamental divide between what the establishment or elite of the party thinks and what the base thinks. What is your explanation for that? and how does that ever get solved? I mean, how are we going to fix it? I'm going to give you a facile answer, David. It has to do with why we're doing what we're doing. I want to be elected the next president. I think I will be, and I think reflecting the will of the people in the way this country is governed is part of how our system is actually supposed to work, both in the primary and in the general election.

1:35:35And so, you know, we're sitting in different seats, but I'm sitting in the seat that I am now precisely because I think somebody needs to actually step up and fix it when most of the Republican party has lock stock and barrel For all their criticisms of Biden on the most important foreign policy matter of right now Have lock stock and barrel adopted what is effectively the Biden position, which is mysterious and it's interesting now I think that it has become a sort of a A fixation, not because these candidates I think have arrived at this viewpoint independently through reasoning their way to it, but just understanding that that's what they are supposed to say in the tradition of a party that was historically based on projecting hard power through deterring the USSR, not recognizing the fact that people sometimes seem to forget this fact.

1:36:29the USSR doesn't exist anymore. And NATO, which is created to contain the USSR, has now expanded far more after the fall of the USSR than it did before, which is itself a symptom of a Republican party that still sometimes creates a nice feature. It's a feature of militarism. It's a muscle memory. What about the influence of the military and industrial complex? Do you think somehow, like it's related to donors, like what do you mean? Yeah, so I'm a I'm very open -minded to and I'm getting the signal that so we were going to this event where we're meeting with parents of Kids who have died as a consequence of fentanyl and I don't want to keep them waiting longer than Then we need to but if you guys are down to do this again.

1:37:15There's been a lot of fun It's been great. You gave us 90 minutes. It's fantastic. We can let me just answer David's last What was your last question? No, I have a better question. Just that last question. Number one, are you vaccinated against COVID? Number two, what do you think of Fauci? And what could we have done differently? I mean, you're a man of science, so I just curious what you think about the whole thing. Great question. So I am vaccinated against COVID. Had I had the facts that I do now, as a young, thankfully, healthy male, I would not have actually chosen to get vaccinated, I think that Anthony Fauci betrays science by substituting the scientific method which depends on free speech and open debate and inquiry with authority which is actually fundamentally anti -scientific at its core.

1:38:04And I think one of our main lessons to have learned from the pandemic, and I hope we do learn it in the future, is that it is precisely in times of emergency that free speech becomes most important. I think if we had been able to debate in the open, the merits of lockdowns for children, we would not have locked down our schools. I think we had been able to debate in the open with the origin of the pandemic was. A lab in Wuhan appears to be the overwhelming, it's the truth. I mean, we know that that's exactly the most likely to be correct explanation. It's in the name. It really is. But everybody who's in name, you couldn't have said that.

1:38:37You couldn't call it. You couldn't name the unspeakable city for which the virus originated. So I think one of the top lessons is free speech and open debate. The path and truth runs through that Science depends on the free exchange of ideas That's who we are and the beauty is our country is founded on that very principle. It's in the first amendment for a reason Yeah, I mean, well, well, let you get to your event But I just want to say thank you for being incredibly dynamic and open and honest It's really great to have guys like you to talk to. It's I appreciate it guys. If you guys want to know again, I had a lot of fun too.

1:39:11So yeah, I just want to add thanks for not being like political politician speak and being so honest and taking on every single topic we asked you about your single topic. Yeah, I'm very candid. I think you did a great job. I appreciate it guys. Appreciate you. Take care guys. Thanks for being here. We didn't talk about this. Did you guys mention where you are or is that off? Well, based on the number of buttons here, I can tell you I'm in. And I can't talk to myself because, you know, did I ever tell you the story about two years ago when I was in Italy and the stalkers? You fucking told everybody you were there.

1:39:45Oh, I didn't. Everybody were on it. I was at Chamot's Beach Club. I took up to my brother. I took up to my brother. It was ridiculous. I took a picture of the ocean. And in the corner of one of the towels was the logo of Chamot's Beach Club. And some guys found that logo on the towel, did a Google image reverse shirt I've searched, which found the beach club that Jamal's part of, and then showed up at the beach club while I was drinking $150 bottles of Perseco on Jamal's account to pitch me their startup. So I don't want to say exactly where I am, but I'm in Italy, where are you guys? I mean, it's actually a shouting distance from each other.

1:40:20We're about to see each other after this. Never tell you guys the story about the last summer when I was in Italy. Jamal and I were walking down the streets of Milan. Yeah. Never tell the story? No. Never tell the story. Okay, this was like the last time that J. Cal and Freiber were having a major feud and it looked like the pod was maybe about to break up So I mean for real break up number one. Yeah, this is break up number one. We're maybe breaking or two or three I don't know you guys are definitely feuding so we're walking down the street all of a sudden somebody stops us and He this is like a fan from I don't know like I've been like Australia.

1:40:58He was Australia. He was Australian. You remember this. He was from Australia, visiting Milan. Hi, Mike. Are you a chumoff? And he stops us in the street and takes a photo and the whole thing. And as we're walking away, Chumas says, we better make this thing work because I like being famous. You can't go back to being not a famous. You guys better not screw this up because I like being famous. There's a delicate balance. It's fake or fake right? Who knows who knows? For people who didn't get the joke last week, I love Freeberg. I'm trying to develop a deep meaningful relationship with Freeberg.

1:41:32I love Freeberg. What do we think of Vivek? Let's get back to the, you know, Breastax here. RFK versus Vivek, we've now had two of the top five candidates and Chris Christie has agreed to come on. The mooch put me in touch. I have to be honest with you, RFK and he are more similar than they are different. On a lot of topics, you know, the contours, I think are different on a few very specific ones obviously, but It's like these outside or candidates. I think have like a they're just a they're a breath of fresh air because I think and Vivek said it right the He and RFK they have nothing to lose so they just tell you what they think they don't have to memorize anything because what they think is what they think And so you just consistently get the stream of consciousness and the more and more I hear from these kinds of candidates the more and more they make sense and juxtaposed against the establishment candidates.

1:42:23It's very stark. Would you consider Trump sacks, you know as being the sort of precursor to these two non -traditional candidates? So now we have three non -traditional candidates in the mix, Trump, Vivek, and RFK and they all are shoot from the hip. Here's what I honestly think. And maybe more moderate and pragmatic in terms of their positions. Well, sure. I mean, I mean, Trump ran for office for president without having ever run for office before. And so, yeah. As a Democrat, he's a Democrat who ran as a Republican too. I mean. And he moved the Republican party in a bunch of ways that were totally new.

1:43:00Trump's lasting impact, I think, is gonna be on the Republican party. I mean, he moved the Republican party from an open borders, completely free trade, sort of party. War mongering, Neocon. War mongering, knee jerk militarism, Neocon to being anti -war, wanting to have strong borders, being at least skeptical of trade, at least with China, if not other countries. And I think he hasn't wanted to mess with entitlements. He understands that's the third rail and very much against the Paul Ryan wanting to touch those at least in a non -bipartisan way. I think that for the Republicans to take on those issues by themselves, I think he understands a suicidal.

1:43:40You lose votes when you start taking on entitlements. And I think that what Trump also did, which is really interesting, is that it cascaded a wave of Self -reflection in a lot of other Western countries. So Italy is more right as a result the UK went right. Spain looks like it's about to tip right. The Dutch actually just lost their election because of national border issues or you know, they dissolve their government. So There's like a real nationalism journalism, would you say? It's more of the nationalist inflection as opposed to the globalist. I mean, that's right. The Overton window, I think, changed quite a bit with Trump and the mix, because now you actually had this much more America first nationalist orientation as the alternative to this sort of globalist, whether it's neoliberalism or neo -conservatism, those two things have more in common with each other than they do with this more nationalist populist approach.

1:44:36Right. I mean, RFC obviously concerns you a bit because of the, I don't want to use the conspiracy word, but let's just call it maybe, you know, his open mind to, his open mind to different theories. So where do you stand on RFC in relation to the vector today, free bird? Obviously, I think he's crafted his narrative in a way that can be broadly appealing. And And as I mentioned in our text screen, I think also appeals to the Trump base in a way it's a very smart campaign. I think that the strategy, the positioning, everything feels like it's hitting the mood of the moment. And I would argue you could probably call any election cycle any campaign, one of two things.

1:45:28It's a promise of what can I do for you or how can I go and destroy the system that did bad for you and Promp RFK and by the way the higher the magnitude of that statement The more appealing the candidate is I think Vivek is doing a great job hitting a reasonably high magnitude on the You know the system has failed us. We need to go and fix these problems kind of moment and it and it's it's really good but I think it's really good for, call it the audience that's engaged in the intellectual debate around it. Not necessarily. Would you vote for Vivek? At this point, I need to spend a little more time with the Santos, to be honest, and understand where he sits.

1:46:13I obviously have deep concerns about Biden. What would your concerns on Biden be his cognitive issues or the out of control spending? I don't think he's running the country And I think that those who are, there's absolutely no accountability and discipline in what's going on with respect to spending, as I mentioned. The vect did not appeal to me in resolving that concern either, by the way. He thinks we're going to grow our way out of it, which is part of the premise of modern monetary theory, which I think is a flaw. So you still don't have a candidate in terms of controlling spending? Yeah. Look, I think the problem with the vect is he's not going to be appealing to the masses, because he's so smart and so articulate that it doesn't have the Trump basics.

1:46:57The Trump basics are insult the bad guy, call yourself the best thing in the world, make jokes. And people might be over that. I think people might be over it. I don't know. What do you think, Chris? Are people over it? The bullying, the name calling, the bombastic Trump nature. Do you think people are over it? Do you think that's going to burn people out this election cycle? Well, not if you look at the bulls, they're not on the Republican party. I think in the general, they might, I mean, look, I think right now it looks like we're on track to have a Biden Trump rematch. And right now Biden probably looks like he's going to win.

1:47:32Barring a recession happening or the Ukrainian side collapsing in the war. But the January 6th indictment. I mean, that indictment dropping sounds pretty, you know, like another bombshell. So do you think there's any chances things that you can't take? No, no, no, no, no. Okay. So what's your favorite moment from this discussion? Was there a standout moment for you, Saks? We thought, sorry, I want to hear you have a question. Timoth, would you vote for him? Are you still in RFK's camp? Are you kind of still open -minded about everything? I wasn't sure what his campaign was about. And I come away pretty meaningfully intrigued about what he had to say.

1:48:15I think that there are some fundamental issues that RFK has me on that I wanted Vivek to own and he floored it with him but he didn't quite own them. Such as, I think that just like the deconstruction of the military industrial complex was so definitive in our FK and it was almost quite there with Vivek but not quite there so I wish I wish we don't know that. I think that the deconstruction of the Department of Education, I need to think more about, but some of his ideas are frankly more compelling. The pro -life pro -choice thing, I think, is very complicated. And I think you can go to this place of saying let the states choose.

1:49:00But I'm just not sure whether that's the right ultimate solution and proposing some federal legislation. But would you want to end up on that? You would want to end up like you're up like a certain number of weeks federally and then maybe some local laws around abortion and right to choose? I think that there is just like you have to fund them if you believe in personal freedom. I think having an arbitrary definition of what a person is and then what that freedom means to me is already the slippery slow. And so I have a real issue with that, but I also agree with him about the actual decay of American society.

1:49:39You know, the lack of religious institutions and the lack of family and purpose. Those two things above all others, I think, are tearing this country apart. Because people substitute something for it with his point, right? It's leaving people incredibly empty. And so I just think that you have to have some of these fundamental protections. is, what were your favorite moments during this, or moments where you think he stood out or he shined at moments where you maybe have some fundamental disagreement? Well, okay, there's a few issues, let me respond to. So in terms of the vague versus RFK junior, I think where Kennedy really shined is like Jamass said when he talks about the military industrial complex, and I would say more generally the RFK has this critique about regulatory capture, which he describes as the marriage of state power and corporate greed.

1:50:32And included in that is what's happened to the FDA, a big pharma and the whole government's response on COVID. And then he wraps in censorship as being the way that this - RFK thoughts are very - There's a marriage of corporate greed and state power, the way it defends itself, and that's unacceptable. So I think like on those issues, I don't think anybody speaks as deeply as RFK Jr. Now, when it comes to the list, if you're to like list out all the issues and where VVK is and where I am, it's a pretty close match. I mean, I'm not aligned with him completely on every issue, but I think it would be pretty close.

1:51:10And I do really appreciate where he's coming from on Ukraine. He's not afraid to just come right out and say the truth, which is this is not an important enough American interest Be spending hundreds of billions a year on I wish we had more time What an amazing moment actually delve into that and particularly I wanted him to explain what was happening in the party because there is a Divide within the party between these like oxygenary and and sort of more establishment Republicans like McConnell like Scott like pens the war machine the war machine and then people like him and Trump and and you put Trump in this category too, or resisting that.

1:51:47So I would've liked to hear more about that. What did you think of the moment where I kind of pinned him and I said, would you, so you wouldn't defend Ukraine, but you would defend Taiwan. And he said, yes, for the next five years, I would defend Taiwan because of the semiconductor. I mean, that I've never heard a candidate say something that pragmatic. Here's my interpretation of that. I just tried to cut the road. Well, it is pragmatic. What he's basically saying is that America right now dependent on these chips, these very sophisticated high -tech chips, some of you conduct your chips, and not just like the low -end ones, the high -end chips that are made in Taiwan.

1:52:20And that is a vital American interest, and until we alleviate ourselves or we ourselves off that dependency by making them ourselves or securing some other supply, then we need Taiwan. And so therefore we cannot allow it to fall into Chinese hands. I'm saying a lot more than he did, but it's kind of an argument like saying chips is the new oil and as long as this is a critical input into our economy we have to secure our supply. I can understand that. The difference being Bush never said we're going to the Middle East for oil. He said we're going there for democracy. So that's what I thought was like the very candid moment there, Zach.

1:52:54Yeah, but what always happens is that when America has a vital interest, you always cloak it in liberal rhetoric about rights and freedom and democracy and that kind of thing.

1:53:08You're right. underneath. He's being explicit about it. What he's basically saying is as long as America's got this yet, as long as America's got this dependency and we need Taiwan, we better defend it and protect it from falling into Chinese hands. But once we don't have that interest, then we don't. I can understand that position. That was wild. It was wild. I mean, refreshing for me, I thought it actually was a highlight of the discussion. There's a couple of things he touched on. So we talked about the other candidates. I think he's being not disingenuous but maybe a little bit unfair to the scientists.

1:53:41I think there's no question that the scientists alone has been singled out by Trump and not just Trump but Trump's surrogates to be relentlessly bashed on. And this happens on social media, it happens on speeches and talks and all this kind of stuff. So they are going after the scientists and that has an effect. For a reason, he's number two. Right. And Trump clearly has pegged him as the biggest threat. And that's why they're targeting him. So that does have an impact. The advantage that someone like Vivek has in a way is that he doesn't have a record as an elected official. And so he can just go out there and speak freely on these issues.

1:54:17And like I described on the show with him, he goes out there and inserts himself in the conversation. When it mixes issue is going viral, he jumps in. And I think it's very important that he's doing it so quickly because if you're a candidate and you wait till the next day. And then the new cycle moves on, you missed it, right? So he's timing it perfectly. So he hits the sweet spot. There's only one way to do it, which is not to have surrogates, not to have a process. Like, you know, we know this is the thought of portfolio companies. Overthinking it. Yeah. Well, it's the same thing with our portfolio companies, right?

1:54:52They run it through like all these PR people and like a PR agency and it gets reviewed and by the time, by the time it goes through his 10th draft is too late. It doesn't go viral. So he's running a social media campaign and it's very effective. Now I think that DeSantis is running a different kind of campaign. DeSantis actually has a record. I think it's a fantastically successful record as being the most successful governor in the country, running the most successful state in the country. So he's out there with this idea that, listen, let's make America, Florida. Yes. So that's what he's campaigning on.

1:55:26And so he is going out there with kind of a pre -determined agenda and a playbook. And it's different than someone like Vivek who's letting the issues come to him. And then he's responding as the issues come up. And that's the way Vivek is living off the land. And that is - All of that is free media for him. It's free media. And Trump did the same thing in 2016, right? Every day he would figure out like what are the issues today? And he'd go on and speak about them. And you go all the way back to Pat Buchanan working for Richard Nixon back in I think this is 72 elections Something like that where every morning you can and there's a couple other speech writers that open the newspaper and find an Issue or two and they would go to Nixon and say here's your talking points, you know And so they would find an issue that back in those days was going viral and have the candidate speak to it So they were nimble and I think that's what they were doing and if you want to go viral in the social media area That's what you have to do.

1:56:27You have to lean into the issues that people are talking about that day. And and this is the thing is that I think Vivek knows how to do that. Trump clearly knows how to do it. RFK knows how to do it. RFK definitely knows how to do it. RFK is so good. Social media day. They're trending topic natives and that's the difference. Freeberg, did you have a highlight or a great moment or two from the vac? Things that made you go, huh, I really appreciate this person or candidate during the discussion. What I appreciated was that we didn't see him fall down on any topics. And I think that his ability to go through the full discourse with us for however long we went 90 minutes.

1:57:08It's our 40. Yeah. Our 40s. That's a lot. You know, RFK Jr. did the same. But again, it's a stark juxtaposition from what I have seen Biden do in terms of interview formats. His interviews are edited. They're short. and to be able to have this breadth, but also have the data and be able to pull it from the top of its head and not have speaking notes. We gave him no questions ahead of time. There's no agenda. Of course not. And I think it's great to see a candidate who can engage in that level of discourse, which was important and impressive for me. I just hope it's broadly appealing. And this by the way, I just want to repeat something I've said many times in the past.

1:57:51There are government. The first is that people pick politics as a career. And I think that that's ridiculous. I think people in a democracy should have a private life and then they should rotate into being civil servants and go and serve public office. That's right. And so they were, you know, had they had their jobs and their businesses and everything and they would rotate in and then they would rotate out of government. The fact that people can be a politician for 30 years is ridiculous and I think it leads to all of the disincentives that have driven to a large government. What I appreciate about Vivek and RFK Jr.

1:58:28is that they come at this from an even Trump. They come at this from private life and they take their turning government and rotate out. And that's why I did not get him to answer the question around what would he do besides being president if it didn't work out and what's he going to do next. The second thing I don't like about Paul. By the way, just on that point, there's a lot of speculation about that within Republicans and circles. This is something I could we just enough time to get into. Let me just finish it. Let me just finish it and then we'll talk about it. So, sorry, yeah, let's come back to it.

1:58:55But the second thing is just money in politics. And I hate that you can raise money and get votes. Just the general concept that you buy ad space and that you get people to change their vote. I think is the most fun. Yeah, I think it's so fucked up. But what I like about what we just did is we actually had a conversation with the candidate and people can just listen to the conversation. That's the old town square that SACS talks about that doesn't exist anymore because everything is chopped up and then sold as media bites on paid streams. Whereas what we just did is a free conversation with a guy that anyone can tune in and listen to and learn about him.

1:59:30And that's what I found most compelling is we had a real conversation instead of watching a 30 second ad bite. What's the rumor, Saxi? Yeah, so sorry, go ahead, Saxi. The knock on Vivek is that he's basically a Trump surrogate. And I mean, Trump has said good things about him. Trump likes him to be out there clearly. I mean, Trump has all but said that. So the idea is that Vivek is out there and initially he's doing this less now, but early on he was just launching broadside after broadside on DeSantis. And so the idea is that he's out there as a Trump surrogate, attacking the people of Trump once him to attack on the whole saying good things about Trump and that he'll be rewarded for that somehow.

2:00:08A cabinet position or vice president position. position people even now saying VP because he's doing so well or maybe he gets an endorsement for a Senate run or something like that. So if we had more time, I would ask him about this like sort of idea, but I'm sure he would have said no, but that's why I asked him specifically how much time he spent with Trump and when's the last time he talked to him and he was honest about that. I've only spent like I did it with him before I was even a candidate. So I'm wondering if there's some clandestine agreement with them through some back channel for him to do that.

2:00:37I'm doing it on its own accord. I think, well clearly his answer would be, no, I'm not a surrogate on my own candidate. And he probably is. I mean, so my guess on it is that you can go out there and act like a surrogate knowing that Trump's gonna like it, and then you'll be rewarded. You don't need to have an explicit deal to understand that that would work out for you in that way. I just want to freeberg's point. So, you know, freeberg, you said, you don't like the money aspect of politics, and you don't like the sort of careerist aspect of politics. I think what we're seeing with Canada's like Vavae or our UK junior or Trump is candidates who are bucking those two trends.

2:01:15I mean, clearly these are not lifelong politicians. They have maybe had a lifelong interest in politics, but they're not like lifelong office holders or candidates for office. And then on the money side, what they're all showing is something that we all know from our portfolio companies, which is that earned media is so much more valuable than paid media. Totally. Payed media costs a fortune and it doesn't really work. No one really wants to look at advertising. They block it out. So you spend a lot of money on advertising and it never really gets you much. Compared to earn media, which is you figure out a way to insert yourself in the news cycle by appealing to people on issues that are being talked about.

2:01:54You figure out how to kind of hit your wagon to, like you said, Jason, a trending topic. And that's what all three of these candidates have done and it works so well. And I think that sort of the career politicians who are proceeding in this very kind of playbook way, which is we're going to go out, we're going to raise the most money from donors, then we're going to buy the most TV time, and we're going to be on message. I mean, we're only going to talk about the things we want to talk about. The problem is that it doesn't work anymore because earned media is so much more valuable than paid media.

2:02:22Well, look, I hope that's a trend, and I hope it flushes the money out of the system. And that candidates win based on the merit of the conversation that they have in earned media, instead of buying more ad space on paid media and that it changes the game. And I hope that the laws change too. And I also hope that the laws change with respect to career politicians and term limits and all that sort of stuff. Because this whole career system and money in this thing is what's driving so much. I don't understand why the contributors to inflation and government spending and government accountability and all the nonsense that goes on.

2:02:51And I would love to see a change. I think the earned media is so valuable now that I think candidates who try to stay on their message, on their agenda, it's going to cost too much money. It's basically an unsustainable path. I would urge all the Republican candidates, including DeSantis, just to get out there. By the way, DeSantis is a tremendously smart man. I mean, he went to Harvard. Yeah, where is he? He's not on all in. He's a lawyer. Where is he? Yeah. To be fair, I haven't asked him yet, but why? Yeah, I was going on. Chris Christie's coming on. I'm asking him to do something. We had technical difficulties.

2:03:24Remember that? and it didn't go very well. Just for the record, the mooch, who loves the fact that a unit of time has been named after him from Usag's. Any 11 -day period is known as a mooch. So if you have a little laugh at the head. That's a ceremony. That's a moochie. It's a moochie. Yeah, once he loved that. But he literally introduced me to Governor Chris Christie over text. So I'm in touch with Chris Christie's coming on the pod. So that's three of the top six or five in terms of polling. I'll ask the Sanchez to come on. We'll never get Biden because he'll fall asleep. I don't think Biden can do 45 minutes without a gap Don't even hold the guy that might show up.

2:04:01Let's see if we can get him. I think he may you know, you make me get Biden I don't know. Let's let's not I can ask Yeah, I mean, let's try and get Biden. I mean, we'd be great. We can get up an hour with him and he can have a real conversation or thus I'd be thrilled the really interesting Well, Biden just did freed Zakaria It was an interview that was pretty much localized to talking about for Paul soon Ukraine. And he also did that other woman on MSNBC. They're all canned. He gets the questions ahead of time. And then they edit it for him. So he gets post production. Which, you know, then you could shape the thing however you want and shame on the media for doing that honestly to the left media.

2:04:41You're not helping the democracy here in the United States by, you know, putting the fix in for Biden. If he can't do the interview, if he can't handle an hour at least, then could he be the president? I mean, let's be honest here. Well, they'll get the ratings just in terms of debrief. Was there anything we want to say about the whole banking crisis? I appreciate that. He tried to find common ground with us. Yeah. I agree. I nearly made a joke that you were now going to do a fundraiser for him after that. No, I mean, listen, he said it himself. I'm going to respond to everything. One out of 100 times, I may change my position based on new information, which by the way we do here every week Every week we all listen to each other.

2:05:20We have vibrant debate and sometimes we change our positions You know like I think that's what any reasonable person does go ahead, so yeah, I mean look I don't think we were that far apart from him on this whole banking crisis I mean, I think we all agree that there should be no bailout for the shareholders and the bondholders of these banks that are poorly managed and go under And I think that Vivek did endorse a proposal which we, I think Jason United both come up with which was to have a higher level of FDIC insurance for business banking. I think it was like 10 million or something like that.

2:05:55And you just include that in the cost of the insurance. Yeah, exactly. It's just paid by the premiums of these banks for banking insurance. And Vivek had this point about if Roku is stupid enough to keep 500 million in a checking account and the bank goes under, maybe they should lose it. It's like, okay, my goal is not to save Roku if they're stupid enough to manage the money that poorly. It's to save the local school. Really, the only difference is that, and I think Freeberg, you hit the nail on the head, is when you have a bank run underway, you have to stop it before the panic can spread. Contagion is real.

2:06:27The contagion was absolutely real, and I don't think people outside looking at Valley could understand that because they weren't in those Friday morning emergency phone calls and board meetings that were happening. So we know it had already moved so far beyond SVB. At that point, we had founders moving their money out of First Republic and all these other banks. On Thursday and Friday. On Thursday and Friday. And they wanted to go to the top four banks. And if it wasn't a Sib, it wasn't good enough. If it wasn't called Silicon Valley Bank, this would have been a totally different thing. And if it hadn't been us raising the loan, let's be self -aware.

2:06:58People hate Silicon Valley tech. There's this contingent of people. We hate Silicon Valley tech and rich people. and they were just gleeful. You know, there's 20 % of the sort of far left communist, socialist, you know, idiots who mids, Elizabeth Warrens, whoever's who are just like, oh great, Silicon Valley's getting kicked in the nuts. They were thrilled to see it. That was that was short and Freud. All right, we got a wrap. Hey, pull up these pictures real quick. This is your five second science corner. Look, these are photos taken on Mars yesterday. How cool is this? That's all I had to say.

2:07:30So those, that's exactly the chances of taking a photo on Mars are 3 ,721 ,000. If you can see, this looks just like the Saturn. Those are from Uranus. Those are from Mars yesterday. Very similar to the photos I took on my ears last night. I took my iPhone 14 and I squatted down and took these single -bears. I was down into a mirror and I said, look, what's going on down there? These, these boulders are very similar to the Dingo berries. What are these? It's my balls and a tape. It's my tape. If you look at those two, I'm going to send it to my huge balls. You guys can't put the bell.

2:08:10Love you guys. Don't you think that's cool that there's these cameras on Mars? It is incredible. Yeah, it's pretty amazing. I think I'm looking at that. And how cool are those photos? I feel like we should have two episodes this week. And so there were so many good topics for us to talk about. But let's talk about the topics. But yeah, that was good. Good meeting with you guys. Love you guys. Hey, if you guys are around, you know, anyone wants to get one and some pasta. Maybe you can go some wine later maybe next week or something. Who knows? Maybe we all get together in person. Have a glass of wine.

2:08:39I see you soon. I love you guys. That's a nice, I love you. Bye, bye. For the architect himself, the dictator, the Sultan of science, obviously after today's performance, I am still the world's greatest moderator. this has been another episode of the All in Podcast. We're still together. The band is still together producing hot tracks. We'll see you next week. A cup of etchia, two for Tuesday, tears for fears. Everybody wants to rule the world including Vivek. Next time, Chris Christie, a cup of etchia, 100 Z -Morded Zoo. We'll see you tomorrow. Love you guys. Bye bye. Bye bye. We're like your winners ride.

2:09:21I'm going to the beach. Rainman David Sack. I'm going to the beach. And it said we open source it to the fans and they've just gone crazy with it. I'm going to the beach. I'm going to the beach. What? What? What? Besties are gone. I'm going to the beach. That's my dog taking a wish. You're driving away. That's my dog. Oh man. My hamlet, the dasher will meet me at the place We should all just get a room and just have one big hug or two because they're all It's just like this like sexual tension that we just need to release that house What you're that beat? What you're a beer of beef? Beef of beef?

2:10:02Let's get a beer We need to get merch Best cheese aren't that bad I'm going all in

2:10:12I'm going all in