E145: Presidential Candidate Chris Christie in conversation with the Besties

31:39I mean, are you not concerned about those kinds of escalations? I mean, isn't that a good thing to be concerned about? Not too specific about. It's always important to be concerned about it, but you have to be thoughtful about it and look at what the alternatives are. And to me, the alternative of allowing the combination of China and Russia to route Ukraine is something that's not in the US, it's vital interest, and will lead to other problems as well with China going forward. And so none of these are easy decisions, Dave, but what they are are the ones that you want someone someone who is thoughtful and has some experience making them as president.

32:24And I don't think Biden checks either of those boxes sufficiently. And I think his conduct has shown that. And by the way, the same applies to Trump. What do you think the resolution is here? And if in, I don't know, 16 months, you're president or when you're president. How would you deal with this if the war still raging here? Well, I think it depends on what disposition the wars and at that point. Yeah, I'm Jason I think you have to evaluate how successful has Ukraine been in pushing back? They've made some success in the past couple of weeks in terms of breaking through some of the Soviet initial defensive lines.

33:04I think we have to see exactly how successful they've been. But what I would say is that there's there's no question that that this is a conflict that we need to support and send a clear message, messages that have not been, as I said earlier, since it all clearly to Putin, that, you know, this is a guy who has openly discussed the reassembling of the Soviet Union. And I have no, no illusions about the fact that this former KGB or things that the Soviet Union were the good old days. And if he thought he'd get away with assembling as much of it as he possibly could he would. And I think that we have to send a very clear message on that to him and a very clear message on that to China regarding authoritarian expansionism.

33:56And this is where I think that the Trump, DeSantis, Rama Swami, foreign policies are so hopelessly ill -informed and naive. the idea that we're gonna go to Putin who yesterday was sitting with Kim Jong -un and Persuade him the better places to be with us go away from your communist brothers in China in North Korea and Come with us because it'll be a much better deal for you and that Donald Trump's gonna do that in 24 hours or Vivek Ramaswamy's gonna do it by virtue of his winning personality I mean to me looks like the guy you wanted to stuff in the locker in the eleventh grade But I don't think that's the guy who's going to put a straight Vladimir Putin to leave the communist Chinese and to come to America's side.

34:48But Governor, you have to admit the war is not going well for the Ukrainians. I mean, this counteroffensive, here's what we are promised. Remember, just several months ago, before the counteroffensive, you had people like Vittreas, at Ben Hodges saying that the counteroffensive would be like a blitz. They would rapidly penetrate the sort of beacon lines. They would march across the country to the Sea of Azaz, they cut off the land bridge to Kermia All this would happen within weeks and it would be a significant Ukrainian victory. It has been Almost a total failure the Ukrainians have taken even the Washington Post and Politico Publications like that have said their losses have been staggering the battlefield reports have been sobering these are our top blob publications saying this so We have been unsuccessful more over you say we should give them more weapons, but we've run out We've run out of the key type of ammunition in the swore, which is artillery shells.

35:40That's why we're giving them cluster bombs We got the the cupboard is bare So I'm just wondering How exactly would you turn this around given that the Ukrainians are losing this war very badly? Well first off There was a lot in there. All right. Let's go back to the predictions from portrayas and others You're not here me making those predictions because I think anybody who was briefed on the on the the deficiency of armaments for Ukraine would not have said something like that unless it was wishful thinking. Secondly, I understand the reports regarding our own deficiencies in providing them with more armaments.

36:24We have, I think, work to do with the rest of allies in NATO in terms of their providing more, more of the artillery and other armaments that are needed by the UK. The Europeans have even less than we do. Well, but look, this is going to have to be something that we're going to have to to cobble together together to get it done. And it also shows what I was saying earlier in regards to the budget question that this massive military built up the Donald Trump says he did was baloney. I think you have an interesting point there actually which is to me one of the biggest surprise this war is that we spend 877 billion on the Pentagon and that we could run out of ammo Right, so I mean without blaming Trump per se or Biden.

37:10I just think we're getting ripped off I mean the military industrial complex is royally screwing the American taxpayer How can we spend eight or 77 billion dollars and not have ammo? Can you explain that to me or have food insecurity for a lot of members of the military not have paid leave if not have healthcare. The idea that you don't want to look at that budget is an enormous. That's what I said. That is what you said. No, it is not. What did you say? I said I said, no, no, I did not say that. What I said was that the Pentagon has to be made more efficient and more effective with what it spends, but not reduce what it spends.

37:50And that goes right to the point that David just made, which is you have to get answers as president to the questions of what are you spending $877 billion on if we're running out of ammo and there's food insecurity and there's not paid leave right so what I what I was saying through the answer I gave you on the budget was I did not see that as a place to cut but I did say very clearly that it's a place where we have to make the Pentagon more efficient and and effective. And we need a secretary of defense and a president who want to demand answers to those questions first. Are you not sympathetic to the idea that efficiency sometimes means spending less to get the same or more?

38:35If that's the conclusion we come to after examining it, then I'm very sympathetic to that. So then you are opening to cutting the defense budget. I'm open. It is a secondary issue, the primary issue on defense. No, I understand. I just want to clear answers to understand where you're coming from. You want to look at the defense budget. You have an intuition that there's potentially extreme levels of waste. Right. If you find that waste, will you just cut it or will you just reallocate it? Reallocate. Why? For the very reasons that David's just talking about, if we're running out of ammo, if our submarine capacity is not where it should be, which I believe it is not, if our ship capacity is not where I believe it should be and it is not in my view.

39:21And if our modernization of our of our air force is not where it should be, which I believe it is not, then you reallocate that money. So there's a principle in capitalism called zero -based budgeting, which I actually like what you're saying, but just to kind of double click on what that is, zero -based budgeting starts with the principle that you just started, which is what are our priorities? What do we want to accomplish? And then you go and systematically build up where the budget actually He starts at zero dollars. Hey, Pentagon, you get zero, not 800 billion. What do we need to accomplish?

39:52Oh, we need bullets. Okay, we need armaments. Okay, we need to have food security for all of our armed servicemen and women. Absolutely. And then what happens if that number gets the 350 billion? Do you just cut half a billion or do you find ways to spend the other half a trillion dollars? Well, I'm glad you brought that up because that's what I did as governor. I was the first governor who did zero -based budgeting and I did it, first governor in New Jersey to do it. And I did it because of the dire straits that we were in. I didn't think we could assume any longer anything in terms of our spending.

40:28So I absolutely would want to take that approach. Now I don't think you're gonna go from 877 billion to 350 billion and say that we've met all of our defense needs and the needs of our fighting men and women with that number. But let's just leave the number blank for a minute. If I concluded that we could do everything we needed to do through the reengineering of how we were spending in the Pentagon and that ultimately it would check the boxes. I wanna check in terms of some of the issues I just talked about. And it turned out to be less than $877 billion. Of course, I would look not to spend $877 billion, but that assumes a lot of things in there as you know, but the principle of zero -based budgeting from my perspective worked when I was governor.

41:25Not only in terms of keeping our spending at an increase of 2 % a year annually for eight years, But it also educated me much more on the intricacies of the budget as the ultimate decision maker. And I think that was useful. You were a very effective prosecutor and part of that is having a good intuition. So I'm just going to ask you your intuition. How much waste do you think is in the military industrial complex and that $877 billion? Do you think there's 30 cents of waste? Do you think there's 40 cents of waste? Do you think there's five cents of waste? Or do you think there's like 70 cents of waste?

42:02My intuition tells me that it is significant. I can't put a number on it. It'd be irresponsible for me to put a number on it. But there's no doubt that when you see us spend the $877 billion and we don't have 155 millimeter artillery shells, that there's waste. Let's talk about governance and just like civil society and government for a second. But let's just finish on this military and industrial complex. Why is it? How does it come to be that so much corruption and graft gets introduced into the military budget? Explain just how it happens. How does all of this waste end up happening? Where on the one hand, you ask people, men and women, oftentimes for, oftentimes minorities to come and serve and put their lives on the front lines.

42:52You don't even give them enough food. Somebody's clearly making money out of the 877 billion. Just explain how that waste comes to be. And the influence peddling and the revolving door, just so that the average person can understand it. Well, first off, and I'll answer your question specifically. But let me say, by answering it this way, I don't want to imply in any way that this waste and corruption happens just in the military budget. because it happens, it's been my experience, it happens across budgets, across disciplines. With that being said, I would say it happens in number two, first of all, not doing zero -based budgeting contributes to that, because people no longer have to rationalize or justify the existence of a program.

43:41They just need to hire enough lobbyists to keep getting put in there. So that's one way that it happens. Secondly, incompetence and administration. So people who are either purely incompetent in the job or alternative two is are corrupt in the job. And so they look the other way on waste because they want to get a job through the revolving door you talked about on the other side. Third way that I think it happens is extraordinary events that cause political overreaction. So you'll have an extraordinary event that occurs from a national security perspective. And then politicians want to look like we're responding to it and the way we're responding to it is we're going to spend X, 10s, hundreds of billions more on this broad category of initiatives without really digging into whether that can be spent effectively that way or not.

44:48And then once it gets in there for the reasons I gave to you in the two examples before it doesn't get out So you layer it over and layer it over and layer it over and layer it over and then that's the way that stuff happens So I think it's a bit of a nut shell presentation on that for you But I think those are the three most important elements that I've observed personally Incovering a state with 60 ,000 employees, NA $34 billion budget. You think the antidote to that is to start with zero -based budgeting or there are other more radical changes you would want to make, whether it's the CIA or the NSA.

45:34How do you think about getting to the root answer of the truth? Look, I think that there's two ways to do it initially. and zero -based budgeting is one of them. And secondly, is to try to select competent people for those positions who understand clearly from the leader what their mission is. Would you, for example, be willing to do an EO that said, if you've served in these roles, you're banned from serving any of these folks for 20 years or something like that. Something that just makes it clear that there's no financial motivation for somebody to walk out the door and then go and work for Lockheed Martin or...

46:14Just augment that. Let's talk about these former generals, like the ones we are quoting who predicted counter -offensively this wonderful success. They're all now on the boards of weapons manufacturers. So the people in the Pentagon, who make a lot of these procurement decisions about weapons systems, when they retire, they go off to serve on these boards. I mean, the big weapons companies are basically their retirement program. I mean, that seems like a horrible set of incentives. I mean, would you do something like ban the revolving door between people working in the Pentagon and then working for a weapons company?

46:49Well, I certainly would be willing to consider if they worked with a particular contractor, they had supervised we were decision making authority over a program run by a particular contractor not being able to go back out and work for that contractor. when they go back in the problem is they know in advance that there are time programs going to be working on one of these boards So they're not as tough as they should be when they're actually in the government job tough problem. You talk about the revolving door in the way in or the way out in the way out like basically you work your way up to general And then you retire and then you join the boards of these Raytheon and Lockheed and all these guys I think That there are appropriate restrictions that can be put on in terms of number of years to make it go past the period when that person could have direct political influence on the administration that's in play.

47:40But I also think we need to be careful about the fact that we don't wind up throwing out the baby with the bath water in the sense that there are some people who are legitimate people who are not looking to do it in a way that is corrupt or unethical, but who develop great expertise in certain areas. is and that expertise can be very helpful. We're only looking at the negative side of it. So I think there are ways to do what we need to do with the political influence and that it would be to ban it for the rest of that administration. So if you serve in a particular administration, for the rest of that administration, you can't go back out and work on the issues that you were working on when you were there, that to me seems to be reasonable.

48:28Yeah, I mean, I don't know whether 20 years makes sense or not. But you know, we've identified the problem. Now let's figure out how to fix it. I'm willing and open to do that, but I want to make sure I do it in a way that is not creating a whole different set of problems that we'll then be talking about. And the analogy I make in part on this is the wall between CIA and FBI and the problems that that I think precipitated regarding 9 -11. So, you know, there are fixes to these things. And I'm telling you guys is, I'm willing to be open about how to do it. I favor the concept. I think we're negotiating over length of years and how it applies.

49:17Should that be the case for all government administrative jobs, governor? Sure. So FDA into healthcare, healthcare into FDA. same principle. It's the same principle. Like, should that be the case everywhere? It's the same principle. Yeah. How should that then be applied to Congress people? Uh, well, uh, since the EO won't cover, uh, members of Congress, uh, in the same way that that's why they don't have term limits, which I believe they should have, um, and why none of the stuff will ever apply to Congress. So let's tell the truth. It'll never apply to Congress because they'd have to pass it for it to apply and it will never happen.

49:53But the president could do what he could do about his branch of government and should, and I would. Let's pivot to one of the most controversial topics between the two parties, which is immigration. And I'll pull up two charts here to queue up the discussion. Here's the first chart. Just since 2000, we've been a net migration in the United States just on a steady stream down at around five million. second chart is a border crossings that orange line there that you're seeing. That's COVID, and then the blue line obviously is the return from COVID. But the border agency seems to think not much has changed over the last couple of years at the border.

50:32However, we have, and that's across obviously multiple administrations. Other countries have point -based systems. They have very logical discussions over immigration. Is this person going to add and be a creative to the society is especially going to be a drain on society. And, you know, they just UK, Australia, New Zealand, countless countries now use this point -based system. It's incredibly polarized here. And we have the lowest, we have the lowest unemployment of our lifetime. Plenty of jobs who still have 1 .6 jobs per American who are looking for jobs. I'm curious why you think this immigration discussion is so polarized and not factual and how you as president would resolve this issue and maybe make it make more sense to the American public.

51:26Well, look, I think the first thing, the first part of the question is, how has it gotten so polarized? And I think it's because people in political life have used this as a weapon on both sides of the aisle to try to promote their own political agendas. Democrats have wanted this perception on their positive side from their perspective, that they'll let anybody in because they think ultimately those folks who come in will be their voters ultimately over the long haul. And they also want to raise restrictions, they want to raise the issue of restrictions that are placed by Republicans on this to make us seem to be heartless, uncaring, unfeeling people.

52:16On our side, we want to make the entire system seem completely lawless because that plays into our view of ourselves as the law and order party and the Democrats as the party who could give a damn about law and order. And we want to play into the populist side of it, which says that any person who comes over the border is likely to take your job. Not just a job, your job. And then when you present it to people that way, they are course are going to be anti -immigration because they'd like to keep their job and support their family and have a life that they want to look forward to and for their kids as well.

53:00So that's my explanation on the first part as to how we got here. Seems logical, yeah. And fair, by the way, your assessment of both parties, by the way, on these topics, I think is excellent. And by the way, completely unfair way to have conducted this stuff. The problem has been that we haven't had presidential leadership on this issue since Reagan. Reagan. Reagan ultimately, and I think he learned this as a conservative governor in a blue state, where he had to deal with Jesse Unra running his legislature. And Reagan, let's all front of mind because I just finished writing a book on Reagan.

53:41So it's fresh in mind to me. Reagan learned that it was only he the governor who could force people into a room to get issues resolved. In the same way when he was president, he didn't love the deal he made on immigration. Same way he didn't love the deal he made on Social Security, But he liked it more than he liked the alternative of doing nothing. I think the only way we're going to resolve the immigration issue, Jason, is to have a president, as I said in response to David Freiburg's earlier question on debt. A president who's willing to sacrifice some popularity to try to force a resolution.

54:32And I do think that most Americans would support a merit -based immigration system. Why does it never come up? I mean, it's if these other countries have had such great success with it. Why won't any politician say it? I haven't heard you say it in the debates. I don't know if you have. I haven't heard everything you've said. They didn't even ask us about immigration in the debates. They didn't ask us about immigration in tidalments or the debt. Three things we've already talked about here today. Yeah. but they had time to ask me about UFOs. Yeah, that was pretty bizarre. They're like, hey, let's give you the most meaningless question of anybody.

55:08And the governor, that's what the base wants to hear. Come on. Yeah. I mean, wrap it up for us, governor. Let's talk about UFOs. I mean, what did you think of the ending of succession, governor? Yeah. I mean, you know, it's like, I mean, so, um, so I have talked about my town hall meetings about Republicans should be advocating for a merit -based immigration system. But we need to also recognize, while I think both parties should be in favor of a secure southern border. If for no other reason than the fentanyl and drug -related issues that are involved. Why is there such a debate over the numbers?

55:51Because I just pulled up those numbers and that's the border patrol and that's across multiple administrations. And then people are saying - You're living in some kind of simulation, Jason. Do you see the Washington Post just last week? The headline is families crossing US border illegally reached all time high in August. This is the Washington Post. Oh, you trust the Washington Post? I'm saying that if a liberal Democrat publication that serves the DC blob is admitting this problem, why can't you admit it? Oh, I'm not saying that it's not at all time highs, but it doesn't seem to have gotten much different Then over the last two administrations.

56:28I like it's not a serious problem. No, no, I don't I promise you I'm not worried about my job. I brought it up a I'm worried about the fact that the United States the United States can't absorb a million migrants a year I brought it up as my question obviously I care about it. So don't tell me I don't care about I'm just fact checking that It's fine to fact check, but even though it's at all time highs if you look at that chart It seems like there's a big debate on the numbers that hey, and maybe at all time highs, but it's been relatively the same And so that's what I'm trying to get at governor.

56:59Why can't we get good numbers on this? Well, we do get good numbers on it, but everybody slices the numbers differently you know I used to work in a deli when I was in high school for a period of time and You know everybody had the same big chunk of baloney but depending on how you sliced it, it looked different. And so I agree with David that it is a very serious problem right now. And it's because of Biden's policies and his rhetoric. He said they very clear signal during the 2020 campaign. If I win, the borders open, let's go. Everybody come on in. And it has caused a crisis in a number of levels also Democratic politicians saying that they were willing to be sanctuary cities and sanctuary states Well now I see the front page in New York post every day And here's Eric Adams complaining They need help And he's help well you should have shut up and not said you were a sanctuary city And then you wouldn't need to help, but it's easy.

58:16Did you see the video yesterday? He said in all his time in New York, he's always seen an end to every problem. There's always a solution. He says, I have not seen, I cannot see an end to this problem. I don't see a solution. Yeah. I'm going to go over there for every of you. This broke Jason's heart. You were as perfect. I wanted to tell that answer. You just broke his heart. No, he didn't. I'm in favor of the point. The system have been very consistent about that. I think we should actually have a thoughtful discussion of how many people we can actually bring in and sustain. You know, that's the obvious discussion.

58:47We all agree on merit -based immigration. The thing that I have an issue with Jason is just you pretend like the borders not in crisis. It is in crisis. Oh, yeah, I think it's not, it hasn't been resolved for decades, right? I mean, we have not had a solution there. But when's the last time the border was functioned? Well, Trump at least had to remain in Mexico policy and then Biden revoked it. And now they're thinking about bringing it back because they have no way to control the huge number of people who are streaming across. Yeah. I'm just trying to advocate for a point -based system. By the way, on the numbers, that's what should be part of a negotiation between Republicans and Democrats in Congress and the White House based upon the current circumstances.

59:28We can't deal with all the stuff that's happened before. But what we know now is we have current circumstances now, guys, which are not only impacting quality of life in terms of crime and quality of life in terms of education because you see what's going to happen in the New York school system and you know you're going to have thousands of immigrant children who now are going to show up with the New York City public schools to be educated. That's why the uncontrolled part of what David Sax is talking about is so vital right now. And thirdly, but most importantly to me, is the fentanyl issue because when you have 110 ,000 people dying of overdoses last year in this country, and you have overdosed being the number one killer of men between 18 and 34, it is a crisis.

1:00:27And it is a crisis which is not created entirely by the border, but is contributed to mightily by what's going on at the border. Would you send, there's been talk of this, I think, from certain candidates. Would you send troops into Mexico to take out the cartels? Or is that a problem? No, I would not. I would put National Guard at the border to work with customs and border patrol to stop the fentanyl cartels from getting in to our country. And I would use our intelligence community to do what we always do with enemies of that nature, which is to target them, and to make sure that if they're going to do it, they're gonna do that they're dealt with.

1:01:13But in terms of a Rhonda Santos full scale invasion of Mexico, yeah, I think I'd probably demeure on that one. So you'd whack these people bringing the fentanyl and you just wouldn't do it on the soil in Mexico. Correct. And also, and I'd whack them within the laws of the United States. It would not be a vigilante system where everybody goes down there and just starts popping somebody they think is a fentanyl dealer if they come over the border. But what I would also say to you is we've got to, we've got to also make sure we deal with this diplomatically with the Mexicans. And by diplomatically, I mean, not like being ice through very hard negotiations with them to say to the Mexican president, like you have, you are importing precursor chemicals from China into your country to make fentanyl with the sole purpose of profiting from and killing Americans.

1:02:12That's not something we're gonna tolerate. So you wouldn't send furio, we got it. to do it. Right. I mean, we do it the smart way, not the way that lets you pound your chest and pretend you're a, you know, television tough guy. So let me double click on that since you brought up Fentanyl. We have this crisis here in San Francisco, open air drug market, cheap as Fentanyl you can get. Plus, we give subsidies if you come here and you're a Fentanyl addict. We pay for you to come here. Essentially, it's absolute chaos. We keep getting promises in San Francisco that we're going to turn around and we're going to take it seriously and never happens.

1:02:44Because given that, is there not a case for the feds coming in and cracking down on the fentanyl trade here? And if you were president, would you come in and you start the local authorities and just take out all these crazy open air drug markets in some cities like Los Angeles and San Francisco? I actually said that in debate. What I would do would be to instruct the attorney general to instruct the U .S. attorneys in the cities with these kind of problems that we are taking over the prosecution of violent and drug crime in those cities. If the prosecutors on the state level are unwilling to do it, the U .S.

1:03:22attorneys have the laws on the federal books to do it. We have the rooms of the federal prisons and we will police these cities until they get their act together. I think you just got a couple million votes and get off. Because people here are fed up with the locals. Governor, can I just push back on that? I recently started reading the Federalist Papers again, it's sacks, I don't know when you last reviewed them. And I'm just struck by how so much of our modern political rhetoric is driven by what the federal government will do for you. On a national basis, a state basis, and now even a local basis.

1:03:55Is that really the role of the federal government? No. Or should each state and each city ultimately decide what the hell kind of city they want to build, what they want to live in, and then deal with the consequences and let the federal government become responsible for the things that were defined in our Constitution and that the Constitutional Republic was meant to set out to do for the federal government rather than use the federal government as a hammer to smash all nails everywhere. At some point the hammer is going to break. So let me answer the question, which is no, No, it's not the role of the federal government to do it.

1:04:28Unless the discord and the inability of the states to deal with an issue begins to affect the entire country. And I believe that these, this failure, and by the way, it's a planned failure, David. This is the Soros group going around and electing these completely liberal prosecutors leaders who say, I'm not going to prosecute these crimes anymore. It begins to affect the very nature of the entire country. If we don't have functional cities, David, we can't have a functional country. So no, I would do this only because I think by the time I get there in January of 25, we are going to be at last resort world.

1:05:14Now, if in the interim between now and January of 25, the discord in places like San Francisco, Los Angeles, Chicago, New York, and others got so bad that the citizens there rose up and demanded something different and the states and cities started to respond to it, I'm no interested in doing this unless we are the law enforcers of last resort. And so philosophically, I completely agree with you, but we're now in a situation where when I was in New York City all day yesterday, it is the worst I've seen New York City since the late 70s. Not great. Yeah. And I was old enough then to go in. I was a high school student in the late 70s and go into the city and my parents used to petrified if I insist that I'm going into New York to go to a basketball game or a hockey game.

1:06:12The walk from the Port Authority bus terminal on 41st and 8th to Madison Square Garden on 33rd Nath was a absolute youthful youthful education on drugs and porn and violent crime. But so I agree with you philosophically on that. But I think in the instance we're in right now, So this is what we'd have to do in order to get it back under control. And so I'm not thrilled about it, but I think it's absolutely necessary. In the United States, we have somewhere between two and three million Americans incarcerated. One of the highest per capita incarceration rates of any country in the world. And a lot of this justice reform movement arose from what are considered to be very deep in equities in the imprisonment of American citizens for various petty crimes, misdemeanors that turn into felonies, that turn into three strikes, that turn into spending your life in prison, and that obviously there's a big racial divide in how this affects the population.

1:07:17And from that movement arose this effort to try and address the social inequities and how the prison system has become to some, an extension or the follow -on to America's toward history with slavery. What is your point of view then? Do we have inequities in the prison system, in how we address crime in this country? And if so, what would the right path have been? Looking back now at the efforts and the dollars that have gone into trying to solve this problem through decriminalization that has obviously led to massive problems in inner cities, is it a problem? The criminalization in this country, the incarceration in this country?

1:07:54And if so, what's the right path to addressing it? And obviously you have an intimate history here, so you would know this better than most that we would talk to. Look, I think it is a problem. And let me tell you what I did as governor. We did criminal justice reform in New Jersey, and we did it in a bipartisan way. And this is what we did. I thought that the biggest problem we had in New Jersey was our state constitution required. It was a shall issue state on bail. every one was entitled to bail under our Constitution and the only factor that could be taken into account constitutionally, David was risk of flight.

1:08:37So if you had a rap sheet as long as my arm and your arm put together, that could not be considered by a judge in whether or not to grant bail or not, nor could the nature of the violence you committed in those acts. I saw that as the norms problem. I agreed with Democrats that on a lot of these minor drug crimes, and I don't mean dealing crimes on me, possession crimes, with addicts being arrested for small amounts of possession, that we had become a debtor's prison in New Jersey. That if somebody couldn't afford the 500 bucks for the minimum bail, which was usually $5 ,000, They spent more time in in in county and state prison than they ever would have spent if they'd you know just Pred guilty and been allowed to plead guilty and get sentenced so the deal we made was this on certain defined nonviolent crimes I would agree to the State law allowing release on people's own reconnaissance in return the Democrats would amend our Constitution to make it a may issue state on bail and to add dangerousness to the community as a factor to be considered in granting bail or not.

1:09:58What's happened since then? Crime in New Jersey is down since we did this. We closed two state prisons

1:10:08and we have not had any spike in violent crime like you've seen in New York since then. because we did it smartly in a way that was balanced. And what you've also seen is 98 % of the people released on the road for cognizance have shown back up for the court hearings. So we're not having some people running around and jumping the ROR released that they've gotten. And I took one of the two state prisons we closed and turned it into a drug treatment prison So that folks who had documented drug and alcohol addictions while in prison were able to go for the concluding parts of their term to this secondary prison to get, which was fully secure and they were detained, but they also got drug and alcohol treatment while they were in there.

1:11:05And what we've seen with that is we've seen recidivism drop among those people who have gone through that program by nearly 40%. There are ways we can do this without having the results New York has had through their ridiculous criminal justice reform. We can do it the right way across the whole country. Have you seen other states follow New Jersey's leap or New Jersey's model? I have seen a couple of other states that have done it. I don't think anybody's done it as well as we did it. And imagine this, you know, a Republican governor got support from the PBA and the FOP for that reform. So, from law enforcement professionals, and got an A plus from the ACLU.

1:11:55Now, when you can get both of those, it's kind of hard to get that done. And I think we've gotten it done and we just had a at my policy institute. We just had a seminar in this from people from the public defenders to criminal private criminal defense lawyers prosecutors and cops all on a panel and not one of them had an objection to criminal justice reform in New Jersey and this is now Nearly 10 years after we did it So I think there are ways to do this Unfortunately, a lot of people don't want to have a long form conversation on criminal justice reform. They want to have either the Joe Biden approach when he was in the Senate, mandatory minimums for everybody, for everybody in the can, three strikes you're out, all that stuff, or they want to have the George Soros conversation, you know, where nobody who commits a crime I'm really meant to do it.

1:12:55And all JL is unfair. Both of those are dead wrong. Gov. You mentioned the FBI briefly before. One of the revelations that came out during the Twitter files is that we had 80 FBI agents monitoring Americans, social media accounts, and submitting take down requests to Twitter. This is a pre -eal on Twitter. And presumably many other big tech companies, so I'm sure they weren't just doing this with Twitter. What business is it of the FBI to be monitoring and censoring Americans? Do you think there's any justification for that? What is your view of that? I think the only reason to monitor those kind of things would be for terrorist information.

1:13:37And I think that would be reasonable to do. But I don't think for any other reason, other than terrorist activity, domestic or foreign, I think the FBI has a right to do that. And I think it's the right thing to do. But I don't think under any circumstances that David they should be doing that. Are you willing to say to Chris Rez? I understand that you recommended Chris Re for the position a couple of years ago. And I think you're a fan of his. Are you willing to say to him, knock this off? You should not be involved in censoring American social media accounts? I'm willing to say to Chris exactly what I just said to you.

1:14:17And by the way, I've known Chris long enough. I mean, we were in the push justice department together, starting back at night, you know, right in the media post 9 -11 period. So I've known Chris now for 22 years. I will say exactly what I think to Chris and will instruct him appropriately with the attorney general. And let me just make a point, David, since you brought that up. I don't think presidents should be involved in the criminal investment authority activity of the Department of Justice in any way. And so you should set policies that say like that, you know, your work should be restricted on monitoring to just domestic or or international terrorism, but you shouldn't be commenting in any way on what they're doing from a criminal investigatory perspective.

1:15:10I think that started in the Obama years with Eric Holder when you appoint your wingman attorney general. I guess that's what happens. And the fact is that it's continued through the Trump years and now through the Biden years. And my instruction to my attorney general be the same as it was because in New Jersey we don't elect the attorney general. We appoint them like you do in the federal system. And what I said to each of my attorneys general was, I know I expertise and opinions, a criminal prosecution, I'm never going to call you ever. And I never did because once you decide to be a political figure and not a law enforcement figure, you should stay out of criminal investigations.

1:15:52So I know you didn't ask it, but it struck me when you were talking about that. So let me ask, let me ask you one last question from my end, which is, why are you running for president? Recent polling data show the 52 % unfavorable rating, 23 % favorable, and you're a three and a half percent in the average of the national polls. What's the goal here? Help us understand how you think about the campaign and how you think about your future as a political operator and what your goal is with the campaign. My goal is to be president of the United States. And since I've been doing this for a while, I don't pay attention to national polls because we don't have a national primary.

1:16:29And in fact, we don't have a national general election. What we have is 50 individual state elections. That's the way we nominate candidates. And if you look at the most recent poll in New Hampshire, I'm in second place in New Hampshire at 14%. A head of Ron DeSantis, a head of Vivek, a head of Nikki, a head of Pence, and behind only Trump. And now I'm behind by 20 points. I'll give you that. But I'm behind a guy who's only at 34 % in that poll. And so I absolutely believe I can win New Hampshire. And I believe if I win new Hampshire, David, then the whole race changes. You have a line there. Yeah.

1:17:08Yeah. Right. So, so let's start off with I'm running because I want to be president of the United States. Yeah. And that's the only reason to run. I think I don't need to run to become famous. I'm famous enough. I don't need to run to, I don't need to run to get a book deal. Because you know what? I've already written two books and my third one's getting ready to come out. I don't need it to get a job on TV. I gave that up to run for president. So I'm running for president to be president David And and that's why I'm doing it and for no other reason Tradonal Trump being jail We'll find out when these trials happen.

1:17:45What do you think? I'm willing to give everybody the presumption of innocence because that's what the constitution demands that I do Do I think what's your prosecutorial intuition? I would have entited both federal cases is I would not have indicted the New York case or the Atlanta case as the Donald Trump. I think on the New York case, I'm going to have to have a lot more important work to be doing than bringing a case on a seven -year -old payment to a porn star that he was having an affair with to keep it from the American people. After the American people already know everything, they need to know about it.

1:18:19So I think that was useless and purely political. in the Atlanta case, once Jack Smith entided Trump on election interference federally. I know that Fannie Willis was probably very upset that she had been investigating it for two and a half years and he beat her to the punch, but he beat her to the punch. And there's no reason to indict somebody for the same acts twice. And so I wouldn't have entided him in Atlanta.

1:18:51I would But I will tell you since you asked I wouldn't have intended them on the documents I would have just indicted them on the obstruction of justice and the lying I Think by intiting on the documents You just made it a much more complicated case that may not get the trial for a year and a half or two Because of the classified documents involved and I would have been for that died in them on the January 6 case because I believe his activity from election night forward is worthy of the probable cause standard. Now we'll see if the government can prove it beyond a reasonable doubt on both those cases.

1:19:29I will tell you. But on those cases that you would bring, that you would indict as a prosecutor, what sentence would you seek? Because these Democrat prosecutors are seeking over 500 years of jail time for Trump. I mean, that's just the statutory. David, that's just the statutory number. it's not whatever is done. People do that all the time. They look at the statutory maximum. They add up each count and the statutory maximum and they come to fire. It never happens. And it's never asked for. And it's never asked for. What you do is if you were the prosecutor, what punishment would you be seeking?

1:20:04I don't think that it makes any sense for Donald Trump to go to jail. And it's not just because he's Donald Trump. It has more to do quite frankly with the fact that he'd probably be 79 years old before he'd be ready to go to jail. And when I was prosecuting cases, I really felt like when you get to that age and you send someone into the atmosphere that federal prison is, even the minimum security federal prison, that you're essentially giving them a death sentence. And unless they've done something with like Bernie made off, for instance, which is where are the of a death sentence? Then I would not think that setting in the jail would be appropriate.

1:20:49Now, a judge may feel differently. And in the end, all the prosecutor does is make a recommendation. The judge makes a decision. If I were president of the United States, why would not consider pardoning Donald Trump? If he were convicted, unless the trial for some reason showed itself to have, you know, unconstitutionally unfair elements that were not corrected by the courts. Other than that, I wouldn't pardon him. But if you were sentenced to jail, I certainly would consider commuting the sentence for the reasons I just said. Let's talk about what happened on January 6, where a second, a lot of folks in the Republican Party are framing it as like, you know, a day out at the park.

1:21:29And we just saw Trump appointed judges give the Oathkeepers and the proud boys sentences multi -decade sentences for seditious conspiracy. Do you think this these sentences that have been handed down by Trump of winning judges are part of a deep state conspiracy against the Republicans or do you think these people are domestic terrorists and that they got appropriate sentences? You know, I don't want to Jason give an answer on each one of the cases because I quite frankly Could tell you that I haven't followed the cases each one of them closely enough. You just did on the other four It's given opinion pardon me.

1:22:07You just did on the other four though. I don't know there were no You're asking me about That was the Trump cases. Yeah, yeah, so now I'm talking about it as a and I said that because it was age Okay, all right, and so none of these folks on the proud boys I think we're in their 70s. Okay. So that's the difference between the two. But I'm gonna try to answer your question. Great. I just don't wanna say I'm giving an opinion as to each and every sentence. Okay. What I wanna say about it though is that what they did on January 6th was unlawful. It was extremely serious and it requires imprisonment.

1:22:49Okay. And so each of these individual cases have nuances and individual facts to them, that I'm not, I will tell you, I'm not completely conversant in. Okay. So the difference between a 15 -year sentence and an 18 -year sentence or a 22 -year sentence, if I sat down and I delved into what was presented a trial and what was presented in the sentencing memoranda, I'd give you an opinion. But I haven't done that. I have to be honest with you. Can I ask one final question? From my perspective, one of the reasons that the polling can sometimes veer this way is that in the Republican polls, a lot of the attacks against you, Governor, focus on obviously bridge gate and beach gate and then this kind of like theoretical corruption allegations directed at you and your staff.

1:23:41Now, your staff was convicted of wire fraud, but then the Supreme Court overturned it 9 -0. Right. And now what they said, though, was that there was corruption, but there wasn't corruption to try to get money, which is why the wire fraud. I think that's what Atlantic Kagan said in the ruling, the majority ruling. And it was, and it was, and I know, so it was very, very clear that the DOJ just kind of took again to your case, talking about Trump, the wrong charges almost, okay? And what they did was not illegal, even if what they did, maybe illegal under a different statute in any event. It would be great for you to set the record on Bridgegate and Beachgate.

1:24:16We're really calling beach gate. Well, I'm just calling it up the press. Like really? Well, I think why people got upset was, and I'm just going to repeat this. I don't have an issue with this, is there was a state beach that was closed and there was pictures of you and your family on that beach when everybody else was told to stay at home. That's, I guess that's what people point to. I'm just giving you that just say, just address it however you want so you can be definitive in your own language. All right. So let's deal with the beach situation. every beach in New Jersey that day was open except for one.

1:24:52Every beach in New Jersey. So the idea that people across the state of New Jersey were kept off the beach that day. And me and my family were the only people on the beach is completely wrong. So everybody who wanted to go to the beach that day could go to the beach somewhere in New Jersey, except for the state park and the reason the state park was closed was because the legislature did not send me a budget in time. If they had sent me a budget I would assigned it and the beach would have been open. They refused to send me a budget. Now, having said that factually, contextually, it was a mistake for me to go on the beach.

1:25:33Now, I told everybody when the the budget standoff was going on that my My family was going to be at that house and they were going to go on the beach, but we were not going to use any services, lifeguards or garbage service or anything else because it wouldn't be open. So I told everybody that upfront, I shouldn't have gone out there myself because I was the governor. It was a mistake. I went out there and spent an hour with my family. It was a mistake. I hardly think it merits a gate. Yeah, I wouldn't give it a date. Of course, maybe. And I would hardly call it corruption, okay? Yeah, no, it's not corruption.

1:26:14On to crux. On bridge gate. Let's remember, this has been investigated by a democratic state legislature with subpoena power, by a democratic U .S. attorney with an axe to grind for me with subpoena power. And in both of those investigations and also an investigation that we Authorized internally all three the investigations agreed on one thing I had no knowledge of what happened no one told me what was going on and I didn't find out about it until well after the fact and Nobody's ever were disputed that who's done an investigation. And if they thought I'd done something wrong, given the reticulous entitlements they brought, I'm sure they would have thrown me in there too if they had anything they could have gone with.

1:27:08These were three employees who did something extraordinarily stupid and they should have been fired and they were. As soon as I found out about it, they were all fired. They should never work in public office again. But what they did was stupid, not criminal. And if we start criminalizing every time someone does something stupid, we won't have enough shells. And when you get Ruth Bader Ginsburg and Clarence Thomas to agree on an overreach by the Department of Justice, it was a politically motivated prosecution because I had just been reelected It was 61 % of the vote in a blue state and was ahead of Hillary Clinton by eight points in national polls.

1:27:55That's why they did it. They thought they were going to get me. They cooperated with the guy who admits he was the mastermind of the situation. They cooperated him to try to get me. And once they realized they couldn't get me, they had to entide somebody so they entide it to two other people. I believe you. I think that the I think the DOJ engages in a lot of political prosecutions. Why is it Jackson's prosecution politically minded? And the point I'll come back to is that Merrick Garland did this analysis when he first came in on whether Trump was guilty of incitement on January 6th and they had like a memo come back saying sorry we can't get him for that.

1:28:35There was then a leak in the Washington Post from Biden himself saying that he thought Marigarhlin was being kind of wimpy and that they should go after Trump. And then lo and behold, Marigarhlin appoints Jack Smith to go get Trump. And Jack Smith's case depends on knowing the inner workings of Trump's mind. This like fraud on the American people idea that he not only made up this stolen election narrative, but he knew his false, which I don't see how they're ever going to prove beyond a reasonable doubt. So why isn't that a political prosecution? I mean, Biden clearly wanted it. He instigated it through a leak to the Washington Post or at least that seems to be the chronology whether it was deliberate or not and it requires Jack Smith to prove this impossible theory because it requires knowing what Trump was really thinking when he was saying all this stuff.

1:29:21All right, so how is that not an equally political prosecution? All right, so let me separate the two. So you're talking just about Jan 6th, not about the classified documents. correct. I'm just talking about the Jack Smith theory that Trump perpetrated a fraud because he knew pistol and election narrative was false. Well look I think that there is going to be a lot of interesting testimony that will be given in that case regarding what Donald Trump really knew and what he really thought what he was telling people at the time and I don't think it says clear cut as you're making it out to be. Now what I said at the time when he brought the chance six case is it is aggressive.

1:30:01There's no question it's an aggressive prosecution. Do I believe it's political? I don't know, but I will say it's aggressive. It's much more aggressive than the classified documents case. Because you're exactly right that state of mind, which is a part of every criminal case, will be a part of this one and trying to get inside Donald Trump's mind is a dangerous thing. Because he says so many contradictory Dictory things, right? So you know, he was saying to me during debate prep in 2020 that he was absolutely convinced that He could lose the selection Not that it would be stolen that he could lose it Because of COVID and COVID ruins his great economy and now he's gonna lose So he's set a lot of different things to a lot of different people over time And all I'd say, David, is that it is going to be an aggressive case to prove.

1:31:00And by the way, if they don't prove it, it will be a stain on the Department of Justice for bringing the case at all. I have to support it. I mean, look, let me agree with you. I'm going to finish that. I know what you're going to say. So I'll finish it. I believe, given what I know, that Donald Trump does not believe that the election was stolen. That's what I believe from knowing him for 22 years and from being with him in much of the pre -election period and him expressing his very genuine concerns about the fact that he was losing to Biden and that he could lose to Biden not because of mail in ballots because of COVID that I don't believe he really believes the election was stolen.

1:31:48But can you prove that beyond a reasonable doubt? Well, that's the part that's aggressive, David. And I don't know all the evidence they have. I suspect they've got a number of people who are gonna tell the jury that Trump told them that he felt he lost. But we're gonna see, but we're gonna see. And that's why I call it aggressive. By the way, let me just get on the record here that I agree with you that a lot of the underlying behavior was really bad. And I've said so on the pod before, I'm not defending the underlying behavior. What I question is the wisdom of one president, basically Biden, his Justice Department going after the former president who is currently the leading candidate in the election against him and doing it within a year before the election as opposed to three years ago.

1:32:35How is that wise? David, let me ask you a question. First off, if they had indicted Donald Trump six months after January 6th, you know, whatever you would have said, rush to judgment, no good investigation. They had this predetermined. You can't win as a prosecutor on that one. Either you went too quick or you waited too long. So I don't buy that at all. I think it's bull. Now, on the question of whether or not a president should allow his justice department to charge someone who is his predecessor and potentially an opponent again, but what's the alternative? Let's take it away from the January 6th one and look at the documents one.

1:33:25If he obstructed justice, if he lied and obstructed the grand jury's subpoena, If he kept classified documents, he was not entitled to keep and then hit them from his own lawyers when they were trying to respond to that. If he instructed people to delete surveillance camera video, which would have shown him having people move those documents, then all you have to do is declare for president and you don't get prosecuted. I mean, I understand it's a lousy situation, but there are a number of people who believe that the only reason Donald Trump is running for president again is to be able to make that argument.

1:34:05And so I understand it's an office. No, no, I think he wants retribution from the seat of power for everybody. Hold on. I want to ask you. You did four under a, I'll do one. So, Governor Christie, let me ask you a question, because you know Trump. Do you think he tried to overturn the election and do you think given the chance to overturn the election and steal the election Donald Trump based on your knowledge of his character for multiple decades and working with him do you think he would have done it do you think he's that criminal minded? I don't think he would have any he would have had any problem with the election being overturned.

1:34:46Okay. And I think if it if it if it was he would have been more than happy to have his rear end sleeping in the White House tonight. Now, I think he evolved to that position in this respect. I've had the opportunity to meet a number of different presidents, every president going back to Bush 41. Every one of them, regardless of my disagreements with them on policy were matured and humbled by the office except for him. Okay, boss. The office made him worse. It made him a worse person. I've known him for 22 years. The guy I met in 2001 would not have done what 2020 Donald Trump did. And I think he is a perfect example of power having corrupted someone to the point where he was willing to not only engage in that conduct, but to essentially threaten his own vice president to try to get into something.

1:35:59Do you think Rushagay played a role in that? I mean, meaning Donald Trump, he's the ultimate outsider, maybe has a chip on his shoulder about not being accepted in, you know, by certain elements of society. He wins the White House's this huge shock. And rather than accepting it, the entire Democratic Party said his election was illegitimate, and they claimed that basically somehow Putin masterminded it. And then they subjected him to two years of this Mueller investigation, which turned up nothing, but they claimed that he was basically an agent. It a lot of people went to jail. You still believe in the still docks.

1:36:33Okay, but a lot of people went to jail and he did the wrong. The steel dossier was completely made up. I didn't talk about the sale dossier. I'm talking about their relationship with Russia. How is the basis for the whole Russian? I'm talking about him asking for help from Russia. You're the last person to live in that simulation. That's not correct. I'm asking the governor a question. Okay. Do you think the two years of this Russian gate hopes basically drove Trump to this behavior or played a role in it? I'll go with your with your last piece. Not the first one. I had a note out that it contributed to his feeling that people were after him.

1:37:08No doubt. And I said from the beginning, I thought the Russia thing was complete crap. And the reason I thought it was was because I was there in 2016. That campaign was so bad and so disorganized, they couldn't have arranged a two -car funeral, let alone conspired with the Russian government to interfere with the election. I was there. It was amateurish and it won because they ran against the worst presidential candidate in my lifetime in Hillary Clinton. So I said from the beginning, I thought the Russia investigation was illegitimate and was wrong. Do I think it contributed to his attitude?

1:37:48I think it did. But I don't think, David, it would be fair to say that that's That's what made him that way. It could be enough. Fair enough. I think it's a lot more than contributed to that. But yeah, I would certainly concede that because I objected to the Russia investigation at the time in real time. Publicly. Could it be for that because I think you've been vindicated by what's happened the last year? The last question for me on documents. Okay. Do you think that there's a selective prosecution issue here? because Sandy Berger's stuff documents in his pants from a clean room never prosecuted.

1:38:27Patreus had a huge classified documents problem, slapped on the wrist. I mean, it seems like, and by the way, Biden had documents by his beloved Corvette and it offices all over the place, going back many years. So, I mean, isn't this document's case? It seems like no one really wanted to prosecute this law until Trump did it. And now it's like, get Trump. Now, look, I think Trump did this one to himself, David. If he had turned over the documents, he illegally had. At any point when he was being requested to, from February of 2021, through to when the search occurred, there would be no prosecution.

1:39:07Why, I agree with that. And the proof of that was to get these other guys. Because they gave the documents back. He was looking, Biden gave the documents back. I mean, Penn's gave the documents back when asked what this guy did was obstructed it in every way he could. I don't want people looking through my boxes, my boxes. He did this guy as like a freak and about these boxes. I'm telling you, I used to campaign with him. He would have a box of documents. Now back to the end, it was 2016. It was a box of documents from Trump Tower. No one could touch them. No one could look at them. He'd go through them a little bit, but he literally had a seat for his box of documents next to him on his plane.

1:39:52No one could sit next to him. The box of documents went next to him. So there's a psychosis here on the documents, David, that's deep. All right. Okay, but maybe that he did this to himself. He did it to himself. I agree. He totally walked into this. No, no, he sprinted into it with his arms wide open and he screwed himself. But in the process he screwed the country but what you're just running is an idiosyncratic issue He liked his boxes. He had mementos in them. This was not a national security issue. Oh sure was how sure was How you cannot permit the president of the United States to be flashing around in a ran war plan on the on the deck at Marlago Sorry, not allowed Especially not after your president and you know what he could have declassified any documents He wanted to when he's president he didn't and now he's trying to say he mind meld them to be declassified Come on David this stuff is such bullshit.

1:40:50It's it's it's laughable But you agree the president the president has an unlimited authority to declassify documents, right? Of course, so he didn't do it through the process you wanted But who's to say that he didn't do it? No Well, his attorney general said he didn't do it. His White House counsel said he didn't do it. But his view is he did it. So who's to say? No, no. His view, he declassified other documents the appropriate way. These he just thought about declassifying. Therefore they were declassified. Come on. I agree it's a bad argument. But I guess it's not a bad argument. But David will make it anyway.

1:41:22David, it's not a bad argument. It's not an argument. Come back anytime you want, Chris. It's not an argument. I mean, you gotta sit in. I think you gotta sit in. I mean, look. Look, I will tell you guys, I am very sympathetic to executive authority. I've been a governor of the state that has the strongest constitutional governorship in America. But you gotta follow the law. When the law empowers you to the extent that the United States president is empowered, that should be enough. You shouldn't have to act outside the law. And here's why he did it. He didn't do it to sell the documents. He didn't do them to give them to some foreign power.

1:42:03He did them to show off. Look what I have. Look I'm still really the president. This is the real core problem with him, David. But doesn't this pale in comparison to the crimes of the Biden family? I mean, let's see. Robert Peter is saying. I don't know. I don't know. Do we have time to talk about the $2 billion that Jared Kushner has gotten from the Saudis and why he got that money? Is it because he's such an expert investor? The guy who bought 666 Fifth Avenue and nearly bank rupted his entire company? I mean, he's actually a pretty smart guy. Oh, yeah, oh no, he's a genius. He's an absolute genius, David.

1:42:45And that's why the Saudis gave him $2 billion. He was out of office. We're talking about, we're talking about, we're talking about, we're talking about, that we want to stop the breath. family Biden is vice president and his son is scripting on the world collecting money. David, what? Why would a president of the United States when he asked somebody like Mike Pompeo as his secretary of state who's been a congressman, a West Point graduate, member of the military, CIA director, secretary of state. Why is he sending Jared Kushner over to negotiate the Now he got the Abraham Accords. No, no, no, no.

1:43:24And if I would have, he gets, wait, no, no, he gets the, you know, so now we're not giving Pompeo the credit for the Abraham Accords. It's Jared Kushner. Look, in the end, Pompeo closed that deal. Abraham Accords were a good idea or a bad idea. Great idea. Great idea. I want you to give Kushner credit. He was definitely involved. No, no, no. He's involved. Congratulations. And why would he be a person? Why would he sit in the first place? because of his extensive, his extensive foreign policy experience managing managing for short, yeah, I'm not sure if he's a farmer building to New Jersey. That's what he was doing.

1:43:59So look, I absolutely believe that as I answered your question very directly before, that the only reason Hunter Biden was hired for these things was to get influence with his father. Absolutely. Now, I think you should go to jail. But we can't look at the Jared and Ivanka making $40 plus million a year while they were in the White House, getting $2 billion from the Saudis to invest after they leave the White House and say that's not aggrieved as well, not to mention the fact that he's spending campaign money to pay his legal fees when he's supposed to be a billionaire. How about you sell the Trump Tower apartment since you don't live there anymore and pay legal fees with that or how about someone you're frigging off courses to pay your legal fees with that but instead at one hundred dollar average donation from Americans who donated to something called Save America which was supposed to fight the steal of the election is now being spent to pay his legal fees because he took classified documents illegally out of the White House and by the way that same organization paid Kimberly Gildfoyle 60 grand to give a three minute speech on January 6th and paid $208 ,000 to Melania's stylist as political strategy.

1:45:21It looks great. There's plenty of grift to go around. Yeah. And I'll tell you this. The grift is deep. The Christie administration, no member of my family will make money off of the fact that I'm president. You can't say that about Trump or Biden. Okay. This has been an amazing two hours killing me. That was governor Chris Christie's well done so on great. God I had these Lasages. All right. I have no voice. Final question. When you did this cadet. Okay. With David Freiburg. Yes. Did you do? Thunder Road living on a prayer Rosalita. What was the song? What did you guys do? I don't remember. I don't remember which song David and I did together.

1:46:02But I did do Thunder Road. Carrier and in that small bar in that little town in Idaho. Be a prevent. I think I do also remember there being a karaoke on a Backstreet Boys song. Oh, that's definitely free, Berk. Yeah, I've stepped in a free, right? And I don't think free, Berk was in that one. I don't think. Do you remember David, which song we did? Yeah. And listen. I don't remember. No, definitely wasn't that. There was a group. Don't go breaking my heart. I think he did open John. Yeah. There's got to be one in listen governor. We really appreciate you coming on. We wish you great success. Congratulations on New Hampshire and Really really thank you did a great job today.

1:46:46Thank you for being so forthright Thank you guys for giving me the look. I love the opportunity to be able to go into more depth about this in anything other than UFOs So it's really really good. Oh wait, we have another hour of UFO questions I would really encourage you to to spread this gospel of the most thoughtful way to beat back corruption is Something like zero -based budgeting across the entire I like that too. That was a great nobody says it people are I think RFK and Vivek scratch it But I think you could nail it if you take it and want to run with it and There's just a lot of money that's probably sloshing on the sidelines that needs to get reallocated and you I'm sure you saw how viral John C.

1:47:33were to interview with the undersecretary of defense for budget went. That was an incredible interview and obviously it hits a nerve with a lot of people. So it's a really important point. It speaks a lot to the broader issue. Well, I'm glad to be here. I'm I'm I'm happy that I did not take my son's briefing. Um, but I can guarantee you that he's going to be listening. He's very stressed. He's actually he works for the New York Mets. He's down in Dominican Republic today. And he called me from the DR and he said, is today the all -in day? And I said, yes, today's the day. He goes, call me right afterwards.

1:48:07He's going to tell him. What are you going to tell him? I'm going to tell him it was great. We had a great two hours and he's going to enjoy listening to it. And now anytime you guys want me back, come back. Fix the nets. Thank you. I'm on the board there too. Yeah. I think that's a little bit of a problem. That may be worse than zero -based budgeting. I don't know. At least the nicks look like they build a nice foundation here. I like it. We're not giving up. Don't give up on the meds yet. Wait till next year. Oh, I'm not giving up. We'll get there. All right. Two hours with the governor going around the horn hair freedberg.

1:48:37Your thoughts after two hours with governor Christie. Where was he strong? Where do you disagree with him? What do you think of his presidency after two hours of intimate discussion here on all in Pakistan? I don't know. If I've got a huge shift in opinion, he's a very personable guy. he has a good command of the subject. He's got good experience running a state. So those are good qualifying criteria. Obviously, this is a very challenging race for him. I'm not sure if he hits any zingers that really helps accelerate him past the momentum that Vivek has and obviously the lead that Trump has with the conservative party support with DeSantis.

1:49:16So it seems like it's going to be a tough campaign and a tough race for him. I'm not sure he brings anything today that shows how he's going to kind of get ahead of this problem. So that's the campaign. Let's talk about for you, if you were to contrast him to other Republican candidates, DeSantis, Halle, Vivek. Where would he fall for you personally? Yeah, I remain of the concern that there's a giant meteor hitting a fiscal meteor hitting the United States. Okay. And everyone's talking about a lot of other stuff. Okay. And it's the don't look up documentary to me. Okay. And he's the most attuned to that in your mind or Nikki, is a good point of view.

1:49:54I think his alignment around keeping military spending and you know, this discussion around corruption, it's such a micro problem relative to the macro condition. Again, 31 % of US debt coming up for refinancing this year. It's going to be, you know, and we're already seeing, by the way, this year interest expense on the debt is greater than the military spending. If you had to pick two candidates on the Republican party, that we're most intriguing to you for your vote, which too would they be? I'm going to skip that question for now. Okay. Chimath, I'll go to you. Post this to our discussion.

1:50:32I thought he was great. Curious how you thought were the strong points in this discussion? And then I guess we can talk about his campaign as Freeberg just did. But then we could also talk about how he resonates with you and in terms of getting your vote, maybe where he sits. I don't think my opinion has changed much before or after. I mean, I think that he's a very personable charming guy, but I'm not sure that he says anything that's different from the establishment wing of the Republican Party. And I think that the winning candidate, whether I agree with it or not, does it relevant at this point.

1:51:10But the formula has been laid bare for everybody to see. And I think that you have to have radical ideas. is. And so when you think about the people that are getting the most attention on both the democratic and the Republican side, but they're essentially pushing back on his all of this orthodoxy. And if he really wants to win, he has to embrace being unorthodox and heterodox. And he doesn't have enough heterodoxical policies to cut through. So So he just cannot win as a practical matter. So if he embraces those heterodoxies because he believes in them, he has a chance. But if he doesn't, it's going to be Trump versus Vivek.

1:51:55So if it winds up being Biden, Vivek, Trump, Christie, Nikki, and this sort of like final race towards finish line, which two candidates you find most appealing right now? Not saying your vote for them, but which two are resonating with Chimoff, Polyhapatia most? I'm still pretty open -minded, I haven't decided. I know. Who doesn't resonate with me? Tell me. Is DeSantis. DeSantis is off the table. Everybody else is still. Yeah, I mean, I was very clear early on that his campaign was DOA, and I think that that's probably just going to, he's going to have a withering kind of embarrassing end to the campaign, unfortunately for him.

1:52:35But I think the heterodoxical rhetoric is going to get ramped up both by RFK and by the Vick. And I think it's going to put a lot of pressure and by Trump. And I think it's going to put a lot of pressure on Biden. And it's going to put a lot of pressure on the other Republican nominees to come to the noise here. It's an interesting point to laugh because if the chorus becomes this heterodox point of view, it looks really bad. Biden is almost in this truly defensive mode because then you have multiple parties speaking similarly about the establishment. I think there's a very good chance that Biden's son isn't dying this week, isn't jailed by the time the election comes around, which I think also speaks very poorly to the risk that there is some clear links of corruption that come out.

1:53:27And I think that that's going to put the election under severe pressure. And I think you can bet that every single Republican mega -donor is going to come out of the woodwork to fund the Super PAC. That's going to blast the airwaves all across the country with that content. So that's, I think, a foregone conclusion if it looks like there is fire where their looks right now is smoke. And if David Weiss acts this decisively and it moves the trial quickly, which I suspect it will, this is all bad news for Biden. And so, you know, you have that on that side. The Republicans have the red meat that they need.

1:54:09The heterodoxy on both sides is what's getting all the attention. So, you know, I think what Donald Trump did in hindsight was really break the glass on being able to say the things you couldn't say. And that will now be the formula for candidates to win. Yeah, just for folks who haven't been watching the news, just department is believed to indict Hunter on the gun charges this month. I think they're still investing in getting the potential corruption where there's smoke, maybe there's fire. And if it leads to Biden. And so this whole race could be totally flipped upside down at any moment, same with Trump and his indictment.

1:54:46The gun charges are nothing charge. Just so everyone understands what that is when he applied to get a firearm, you have to check off these check boxes on the forum. And one of them is I apparently that you don't have a drug problem. And so he lied on that forum, I guess. But that's the kind of charge that I personally know believe they should be going after him for because I don't think they had prosecuted an ordinary person for that. Yeah. And in his defense, Hunter said, I have no problem scoring drugs. So I don't have a drug and get them anytime I need them. It's one of these weird, kind of almost like a paperwork charge.

1:55:23And remember that what the DOJ tried to do was a settlement with Hunter Biden, where he would plead guilty on that same gun charge, because it's kind of a nothing charge. But then buried deep in that settlement was a broad immunity on all the foreign lobbying he was doing, the Farah Act violations. And then it came out and the judge said, wait a second, like that's too much. Like what are you doing? and they reject the judge reject to the settlement. So frankly, I view the charges by the DOJ on the gun charge as a misdirection of what the real issue is with Hunter Biden. He was running around the world collecting money with being an unregistered foreign agent, foreign lobbyist.

1:56:04That's the crux of the issue is that's the corruption. A legend. But the point is that's what the DOJ should be looking at. Not these like. That's what they are looking at. did Hunter use drugs in the long way? I think looking at the tax evasion tax fraud charges, that is their way of looking at that. So I think it's going to come out. I think at this point, they're looking at both. Everybody will have the truth. If the Biden's are truly not guilty, that will be clearly established now in this process. But if he was acting as an unregistered agent of these foreign governments, that is also going to come out.

1:56:38And if there were links between him and his father and communications, that's also going to come out. I think that he hasn't even been entitled on that yet. Right? Yeah. I think it takes time. I think they will thoughtfully put it together. But I'm not confident about it. Given that they wanted to give him broad immunity on those charges, I think that I think David Weiss is under such a microscope right now. Yeah. The idea that he doesn't act conclusively here, I think would be a huge problem. And then the next president, if it's Republican, will reopen it. So whatever happens here will need to be definitive.

1:57:09And I think the special prosecutor probably understands that at this. Yeah. So let's go back to your impressions before we go down the Biden Biden Biden rabbit hole here. What are your thoughts after two hours with Chris Christie? Anything change in your outlook on him? And then I'm curious are you still team to Santa's all the way? Okay, so on Christie I Like talking to him more than I thought I was going to I think he was easy to talk to I think the two hours went by pretty quickly I think he brought his energy level down to the right place for a podcast. I mean, it was a little different than when he's very pugnacious on the debate stage and can kind of grandstand and he engaged in a discussion with us.

1:57:52So I thought that was positive. The only time his energy really changed was basically in the last five minutes when he went on to a full on like Trump diatribe and it was almost like a little bit of TDS kicked in. That being said, his position on Trump was a little bit more nuanced than I was expecting. First of all, he admitted the whole russi -gate thing was total baloney. Second, he said that with respect to the state charges, the Alvin Bragg in New York and the Fanny Willis in Atlanta, those charges should not have been brought. Yeah, although that was pretty good. I could have agreed with him on those.

1:58:25I agree with his asset. I thought that was intellectually honest. Did you feel intellectual honesty from him? Yeah, I think he really believes this. Third, I took a couple of tries by Jamoth and than me to get him to say this, but he said he would not put Trump in jail. He's too old for that. And I thought that was, I wasn't sure where he was going to come out on that. I didn't know if he was going to say Trump deserves a life sentence or not. Yeah, we should have asked him if he would pardon him if he was present. He did. He said he didn't pardon him, but I commute his sentence. I commute his sentence.

1:58:53So he didn't have to spend time in jail. So I thought that was new information. And again, a more nuanced view than I was expecting. On the documents case, he said that Trump ran into the charges, which frankly I agree. agree with, I think Trump could have avoided that easily. However, Chris, he said he did it for idiocycid -protic reasons. He loves his box of mementos. He didn't really address life work. You and I have. Yeah. And you know who else loves their mementos? I have a handful of kids under the age of five who love blankets and blankets and, yes, the blanket, pacifiers, Teddy. Yeah, I would just go a little further and just say, listen, if he did this for idiocycid -protic reasons rather than nefarious reasons, like selling state secrets, then I think that you apply the same standard of prosecution as they did to portray us or to Biden himself or to.

1:59:41The thing you keep missing is that those people gave those back. You keep missing that sex. I don't know why you have that blind spot because he basically said that Trump has an anxiety complex and he's so he sells suits with that box of documents. That's what he said. Google Gaga. Google Gaga. Oh, but that's what he said. I would treat Trump the same way as Sandy Berger. I mean, come on. Those guys. Let's just moving on. Justice, but what's going on? So moving, are you still too standing? He's the same. The last point was on the Jack Smith charges, where he admitted that Jack Smith has to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Trump knew that his election denial argument was false.

2:00:23And I think he pretty much admitted that that would be a very, very hard thing to prove, but he said he wanted to wait to see what evidence they had. To me, that kind of begs the question of why you'd bring that case in the first place. Any event. So that's on Trump. I think what I saw there was a little bit of TDS, but a more nuanced overall perspective when you got into the details. On foreign policy, I think we had a lot of interesting conversation there about the mismanagement of the military and industrial complex. And I think Jemoth had some really interesting questions there that I followed up on.

2:00:56And really, you couldn't get him to say anything other than he wouldn't necessarily increase the size of the defense budget until you did the efficiency survey. But he kind of had to be pushed to even get there. And what I would just say is that on that question, on military spending combined with the question of Ukraine, he pretty much has the standard establishment Republican position, which is the only thing Biden has done wrong is not move aggressively enough on Ukraine that giving mixed messages, not being hawkish enough. I'm sorry, but Biden has had the most hawkish policy on Ukraine that any presence ever had.

2:01:34And the only reason there's been hand -ringing about giving them F -16s is because it could start World War III. And I personally want Biden thinking about that. So again, I think this neocon Republican position that involves Christy and Haley and Pence and Mitch McConnell, based on the whole Republican establishment, they basically believe that Biden who says we need to support Ukraine for as long as it takes as much as it takes. He's still not doing enough. I just don't fundamentally buy that argument. You still teams the Santos. Here's my view on it. So look, I would support the Santos. I also would support Vivek.

2:02:09For me. Well, well, well, this is new information. So you're saying you are now equally open -minded to Vivek and the Santos. It's not equally minded. But look, for me, for most... What percent? I divide it. I divide candidates at this point into acceptable versus unacceptable. And for me, the number one issue is whether the president, the next president will seek to de -escalate or end the Ukraine war or they will seek to escalate it. So, it's Christy, along with all these others, by saying that Biden has been too dovish on Ukraine, is effectively saying he wants to do even more on Ukraine. So, I'm not willing to take, I'm not willing to live for the next four years on the knife's edge of war three, I don't want to put why don't want the sort of war three.

2:02:58So that you invoved X camp? Well, no, I think that the candidates who said that they would either end or deescalate Ukraine are Vivek, DeSantis and Trump has set it. They're the only three. Oh, and sorry, Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. Okay, but you're not going to vote for him. So that put you in Vivek. Well, I don't know. I mean, he might be my favorite, to be honest. Would you pick him over Trump? I would certainly take Kennedy over Trump. You would. Wow. This is incredibly breaking news folks. This is, this is all incredible. Wow. But look, for me, this is the Lemist test issue is, are you going to escalate or de -escalate the Ukraine war?

2:03:33And I think that these hawkish Republican candidates pose an unacceptable risk or three. What do you think, Jason? Yeah, Jason, what do you think? I thought he broke your heart there in a couple of places. No, actually, I don't expect all candidates to line up with my belief system perfectly. Obviously, he's well spoken. Obviously he's qualified. I'm looking for a moderate life -free book. I think the existential crisis of the balance sheet is my top issue. I voted Republican about 25 % and Democrat 75%. I'm literally a moderate and independent. And right now, I really don't think Biden can be president or Trump.

2:04:11So that leaves me with R .K. on one side and it leaves me with Nikki Halley and Christie on the other side. And Nikki Halley and Christie are really into balancing the budget. And so I'm leaning towards voting Republican if those are the two candidates. Now the thing that I think handicapping this election is not being talked about all that much because we have the Trump Biden rematch taking while they are at the room is I don't know that Biden makes it to the starting line nor do I think And Trump makes it to the starting line. And so that changes everything. And who knows what percentage chance that is.

2:04:44I don't think any of us can give it a perfect handicap. But let's say that is the case. Then I think it's, you know, there's a lot of lanes open here. And I think the election will be once again determined by moderates. And I think women who are still very much upset about the Roe v Wade issue. And I think those two things are going to play a significant role. And that's where I think Nikki Haley and Chris Christie believe it's a state's issue. and they're not into the national ban for abortion. I think moderates are not into Biden. I think they were, I don't think they're going to be in tariff.

2:05:15I think they're going to be into Nikki Haley and I think Nikki Haley could happen and I think Chris Christie could happen. So I hope we get Nikki Haley on here because I don't know her enough, but I would like to have that to our discussion. So I'm leaning towards Haley, Christie, if they make, all right, this has been an amazing episode of the All in Podcast. We went for over two hours and joy, the one and a half times episode everybody because next week is the oil and summit and we're not going to tape next week so you get a week off from the pod while we bank I think like 20 amazing amazing guests from Ray Dalio to Elon Musk to Mr.

2:05:50Beast. I mean the list of people, Gwyneth Paltrow that free bird has put together is a extraordinary congratulations to free bird on a program even even better than last year's program is that unprecedented success here. So great, great job, freeberg and the team over at the production board. The parties might be fun too. I got my tux and ready to go. We will see you all in Los Angeles or some portion of you, about one percent of you in Los Angeles next week. Sorry for the phone, everybody, but freeberg will be releasing the episodes on Twitter, X and YouTube are the exclusive locations. So you're not going to get in your podcast feeds flooded with the 20 talks.

2:06:34You got to go to X, follow all in podcasts on X, free, pharmacy, and on Twitter and search all in podcasts on YouTube. You can subscribe and then there's a bell there. You put on the alert. I think you're going to drop them every day or every two days freeberg, something in that sort of pace. So you got 20 days of content coming at you. Come and at you for the dictator himself, Chamak Polly, Hapiti, the Sultan of science, David Freeberg, chair a person of the eel in summit 2023 great job and rainman the architect himself with that incredible Gordon Gecko hair wow looking great tax I am the undisputed world's greatest moderator according to the youtube comments and we'll see you next week bye bye

2:07:25and they've just gone crazy with it. I'm going to the US, I'm going to the US. What?

2:07:36Besties are gone. I'm going to the US. That's my dog taking a wish. You drive away. He's in the X. Wait, I don't think it is. Oh, man. My ham is the actual meat. We should all just get a room and just have one big hug. Because they're all just like this, like, sexual tension that they just need to release that house. What you're the bee, what you're the bee What you're the bee, what you're the bee We need to get merch, these aren't bad I'm going on a list

2:08:09I'm going on a list