In conversation with Sam Altman

27:18Does, you'll need some of that for sure, but the thing that I think we're missing across the board for many of these things we've been talking about is models that can do reasoning. And once you have reasoning, you can connect it to chemistry stimulators or whatever else. So, I guess that, yeah, that's the important question I wanted to kind of talk about today was this idea of networks of models. People talk a lot about agents as if there's kind of this linear set of call functions that happen. But one of the things that arises in biology is network subsystems that have cross interactions that the aggregation of the system, big aggregation of the network produces an output rather than one thing calling another, that thing calling another.

28:04Do we see like an emergence in this architecture of either specialized models or network models that work together to address bigger problem sets, use reasoning, there's computational models that do things like chemistry or arithmetic and there's other models that do rather than one model to rule them all that's purely generalized. I don't know.

28:29I don't know how much reasoning is going to turn out to be a super generalizable thing. I suspect it will, but that's more just like an intuition and a hope and it would be nice if it worked out that way. I don't know if that's like.

28:46But let's walk through the protein modeling example. There's a bunch of training data, images of proteins, and then sequence data, and they build a model, predictive model, and they have a set of processes and steps for doing that. Do you envision that there's this artificial general intelligence or this great reasoning model that then figures out how to build that submodel that figures out how to solve that problem by acquiring the necessary data and then resolving. There's so many ways where that could go. Like maybe it is, it trains a literal model for it or maybe it just like knows the one big model what it can like go pick, what other training data it needs and ask a question and then update on that.

29:27I guess the real question is, are all these startups gonna die? Because so many startups are working in that modality, which is go get special data and then train a new model on that special data from the ground up. And then it only does that one sort of thing and it works really well at that one thing and it works better than anything else at that one You know there's like a version of this I think you can like Already see when you were when you were talking about like biology and these complicated networks of systems The reason I smile I got super sick recently and Mostly better now, but it was just like body like got beat up like one system at a time thought like you can really tell like like, okay, it's this cascading thing.

30:08And that reminded me of you talking about the biology is just these like, you have no idea how much these systems interact with each other until things start going wrong. And that was sort of like interesting to see. But I was using, I was like using ChatGPT to try to like figure out like what was happening whatever and would say, well, I'm unsure of this one thing. and then I just like posted a paper on it without even reading the paper, like in the context and it says, oh, that was the thing I was unsure of. Like, now I think this instead. So there's like a, that was like a small version of what you're talking about where you can like, can say this, I don't know this thing and you can put more information.

30:48You don't reach any of the models adding into the context here. And now you're getting them. So these models that are predicting protein structure, like, let's say, right, this is the whole basis. And now, now other molecules at AlphaFull 3. Can they... Yeah, I mean, is it basically a world where the best generalized model goes in and gets that training data and then figures out on its own? And maybe you could use an example for us. Can you tell us about Sora, your video model, that generates amazing moving images, moving video? And what's different about the architecture there, whatever you're willing to share on how How that is different.

31:28Yeah, so on the general thing first,

31:35you clearly will need specialized simulators, connectors, pieces of data, whatever, but my intuition, and again, I don't have this backed up with science, my intuition would be if we can figure out the core of generalized reasoning, connecting that to new problem domains in the same way that humans are generalized reasoners, would I think be doable? It's like a faster unlock. Faster unlock than I think so.

32:10But yeah, Sora does not start with a language model. It's that's a model that is like customized to do video and so we're clearly not at that world yet. Right. So you guys, so just as an example, for you guys to build a good video model, you built it from scratch using, I'm assuming some different architecture and different data, but in the future, the generalized reasoning system, the AGI, whatever system theoretically could render that by figuring out how to do it. Yeah, I mean, one example of this is like, okay, you know, as far as I know, all the best text models in the world are still a lot of aggressive models and the best image and video models are diffusion models and it's like strange in some sense.

32:59Yeah. So there's a big debate about training data. You guys have been, I think, the most thoughtful of any company. You've got licensing deals now, FT, et cetera. And we got to just be gentle here because you're involved in a New York Times lawsuit. that you weren't able to settle, I guess, an arrangement with them for training data. How do you think about fairness in fair use? We've had big debates here on the pod. Obviously, your actions are, you know, speak volumes that you're trying to be fair by doing licensing deals. So what's your personal position on the rights of artists who create beautiful music, lyrics, books and you taking that and then making a derivative product out of it and then monetizing it and what's fair here and how do we get to a world where you know artists can make content in the world and then decide what they want other people to do with it.

33:59Yeah and I'm just trying to hear personally because I know you to be a thoughtful person on this and I know a lot of other people in our industry are not very thoughtful about how they think about content creators. So I think it's very different for different kinds of, I mean, look on unfair use. I think we have a very reasonable position under the current law, but I think AI is so different. Good for things like art will need to think about them in different ways. But let's say if you go read a bunch of math on the internet and learn how to do math, that I think seems unobjectionable to most people.

34:37And then there's like another set of people who might have a different opinion. Well, what if you like?

34:46Actually, let me not get into that just in the instant not making this answer too long. So I think there's like one category people are like, okay, there's like generalize human knowledge. You can kind of like go if you learn that like that's like open domain or something if you kind of go learn about the Pythagorean theorem. That's one end of the spectrum. And then I think the other extreme end of the spectrum is art. And maybe even more specifically, I would say it's like doing, it's a system generating art in the style or the likeness of another artist would be kind of the furthest end of that.

35:25And then there's many, many cases on the spectrum in between. I think the conversation has been historically very caught up on training data, but it will increasingly become more about what happens at inference time as training data becomes less valuable. and what the system does accessing information in context in real time or taking something like that, what happens at inference time will become more debated and what the new economic model is there. If you say create me a song in the style of Taylor Swift, even if the model were never trained on any Taylor Swift songs at all, you can still have a problem, which is that may have read about Taylor Swift, it may know about her themes, Taylor Swift means something, and then the question is, like, should that model, even if we were never trained on any Taylor Swift song, whatsoever, be allowed to do that?

36:33And if so, how should Taylor get paid? Right. So I think there's an opt -in opt -out in that case first of all and then there's an economic model. Staying on the music example, there is something interesting to look at from the historical perspective here, which is sampling and how the economics around that work. This is not quite the same thing, but it's like an interesting place to start looking at. Sam, let me just challenge that. What's the difference in the example you're giving of the model learning about things like song structure, tempo, melody, harmony, relationships, all the discovering all the underlying structure that makes music successful and then building new music using training data.

37:15And what a human does that listens to lots of music, learns about and their brain is processing and building all those same sort of predictive models or those same sort of discoveries or understandings. What's the difference here and why are you making the case that perhaps artists should be uniquely paid? This is not a sampling situation. You're not the AI is not outputting and it's not storing in the model the actual original song. Yeah, I was learning structure, right? I wasn't trying to make that that point because I agree like in the same way that humans are inspired by other humans. I was saying if you if you say generate me a song in the style of Taylor Swift.

37:54I see right? Okay, I think that's like the way the prompt leverages some artist I think personally that's a different case. Would you be comfortable asking, or would you be comfortable letting the model train itself, a music model being trained on the whole corpus of music that humans have created without royalties being paid to the artists that music is being fed in. And then you're not allowed to ask artists specific prompts. You could just say, hey, Pania, Plania, a really cool pop song that's fairly modern about heartbreak with a female voice. Yeah, you know, we have currently made the decision not to do music and partly because exactly these questions of where you draw the lines and you know what like even I was meeting with several musicians I really admire recently I was just trying to like talk about some of these edge cases but even the world in which if we went and let's say we paid 10 ,000 musicians to create a bunch of music just to make a great training set where the music model could learn everything about strong, strong structure and what makes a good catchy beat and everything else.

39:08And only trained on that, let's say we could still make a great music model, which maybe we could. I was kind of like posing that as a thought experiment to musicians and they're like, well, I can't object to that on any principal basis at that point. And yet there's still something that I don't like about it. No, that's not a reason not to do it necessarily, but it is... Did you say that ad that Apple put out maybe it was yesterday or something of like squishing all of human creativity down into one really thin iPad? What was your take on it? People got really emotional about it. Yeah, it's a stronger reaction than you would think.

39:43Yeah, there's something about...

39:48I'm obviously hugely positive on AI, but there is something that I think is beautiful about human creativity and human artistic expression. And for an AI that just does better science, like, great, bring that on. But an AI that is going to do this deeply beautiful human creative expression, I think we should figure out it's going to happen. It's going to be a tool that will lead us to greater creative heights. But I think we should figure out to do it in a way that like preserves the spirit of what we all care about here And I think your actions Speak loudly we were trying to do star -worst characters in Dolly and if you ask for Darth Vader it says hey, we can't do that So you've I guess red teamed or whatever you call it internally.

40:34We try yeah, you're not allowing people to use other people's IP so you've taken that decision now if you asked it to make a Jedi bulldog or a Sithboard Bulldog, which I did, it made my Bulldogs a Sith Bulldog. So, interesting question about my spectrum, right? Yeah, we put out this thing yesterday called the spec, where we're trying to say, here's how our models are supposed to behave. And it's very hard, it's a long document, it's very hard to specify exactly in each case where the limit should be. And I view this as like a discussion that's gonna need a lot more input. But these sorts of questions about, okay, maybe it shouldn't generate Darth Vader, but the idea of a Sith Lord or a Sith -style thing or Jedi at this point is like part of the culture or like, these are all hard decisions.

41:26Yeah, and I think you're right. The music industry is going to consider this opportunity to make Taylor Swift songs their opportunities. It's part of the four -part fair use test is, you know, these who gets to capitalize on new innovations for existing art. And Disney has an argument that, hey, you know, if you're going to make Sora versions of a Shoka or whatever Obi -Wan Kenobi, that's Disney's opportunity. And that's a great partnership for you, you know, to pursue. So we're, I think, this section I would label as AI and the law. So let me ask maybe a higher level question. What does it mean when people say regulate a...

42:06Totally. Sam, what does that even mean? In comment on California's new proposed regulations as well as you, fear of foreign. I'm concerned, I mean there's so many proposed regulations, but most of the ones I've seen on the California state things I'm concerned about, I also have a general fear of the states all doing this themselves. When people say regulate AI, I don't think they mean one thing. I think there's like some people are like being on the whole thing. Some people like don't allow it to be open source, required to be open source. The thing that I am personally most interested in is I think there will come, look, I may be wrong about this.

42:45I will acknowledge that this is a forward looking statement and those are always dangerous to make. But I think there will come a time in the not super distant future, like you know, we're not talking like decades and decades from now, where AI says, as the Frontier AI systems are capable of causing significant global harm. And for those kinds of systems, in the same way we have like global oversight of nuclear weapons or synthetic bio or things that can really like have a very negative impact way beyond the realm of one country, I would like to see some sort of international agency that is looking at the most powerful systems and ensuring like reasonable safety testing.

43:26You know, these things are not going to escape and recursively self -improve or whatever. The criticism of this is that you have the resources to cozy up, to lobby, to be involved and you've been very involved with politicians and then start -ups, which are also passionate about investing, are not going to have the ability to resource and deal with this and that this regulatory capture us per our friend, you know, Bill Gurley did a great talk last year about it. So maybe you could address that head on. Do you feel like if the line where we're only going to look at models that are trained on computers that cost more than 10 billion or more than 100 billion or whatever dollars, I'd be fine with that.

44:07There'd be some line that'd be fine. And I don't think that puts any regulatory burden on startups. So if you have like the nuclear raw material to make a nuclear bomb, like there's a small subset of people who have that, therefore you use the analogy of like a nuclear inspectors in a situation. Yeah, that's interesting. Sax, you have a question? Tramasko had you to follow. Can I say one more thing about that? Of course. I'd be super nervous about regulatory overreach here. I think we can get this wrong by doing way too much, or even a little too much. I think we can get this wrong by doing not enough.

44:41But I do think part of, and I, and now, I mean, we have seen regulatory overstepping or capture, just get super bad in other areas. And, you know, that also maybe nothing will happen, but I think it is part of our duty and our mission to like talk about what we believe is likely to happen and what it takes to get that right. The challenge, Sam, is that we have statute that is meant to protect people, protect society at large. What we're creating, however, a statute that gives gives the government rights to go in and audit code to audit business trade secrets. We've never seen that to this degree before.

45:31Basically, the California legislation that's proposed and some of the federal legislation that's been proposed basically requires the government to audit a model, to audit software, to audit and review the parameters and the weightings of the model. and then you need their check mark in order to deploy it for commercial or public use. And for me, it just feels like we're trying to reigning the government agencies for fear and because folks have a hard time understanding this and are scared about the implications of it, they want to control it. And the only way to control it is to say, give me a right to audit before you can release it.

46:11As opposed to... And they're clueless. These people are clueless. And they're clueless. I mean, the stuff is written, you read it, you're like, going to pull your hair out, because as you know, better than anyone, in 12 months, none of this stuff's going to make sense anyway. Totally. Right. Look, the reason I have pushed for an agency -based approach for kind of like the big picture stuff and not a like write it in laws, I don't. In 12 months, it will all be written wrong. And I don't think, even if these people were like true world experts, I don't think they could get it right. Looking out in 12 or 24 months.

46:42And I don't, these policies, which is like, we're gonna look at, you know, we're gonna audit all of your source code and like look at all of your weights one by one. Like, yeah, I think there's a lot of crazy proposals out there. By the way, especially if the models are always being retrained all the time if they become more dynamic. Again, this is why I think it's yeah. But like when, before an airplane gets certified, there's like a set of safety tests. We put the airplane through it. And. Totally. It's different than reading all of your code. That's reviewing the output of the model, not reviewing the insights of the model.

47:16And so what I was going to say is that is the kind of thing that I think as safety testing makes sense. How are we going to get that to happen, Sam? And I'm not just speaking for OpenAI, I speak for the industry for humanity because I am concerned that we draw ourselves into almost like a dark issues type of era by restricting the growth of these incredible technologies that can prosper humanity can prosper from so significantly. How do we change the sentiment and get that to happen? Because this is all moving so quickly at the government levels and folks seem to be getting it wrong. I'm just to build on that.

47:52Sam, the architectural decision, for example, that Lama took is pretty interesting in that it's like, we're going to let Lama grow and be as unfettered as possible. And we have this other kind of thing that we call Lama Guard that's meant to be these protective guardrails. Is that how you see the problem being solved correctly? Or do you see that? At the current strength of models, definitely some things are going to go wrong. And I don't want to make light of those or not take those seriously. But I'm not like, I don't have any catastrophic risk worries with a GPT -4 level model. And I think there's many safe ways to choose to deploy this.

48:35Maybe we'd find more common ground if we said that, and I think, like, you know, the specific example of models that are capable, that are technically capable, not even if they're not going to be used this way, of recursive self -improvement, or of, you know, autonomously designing and deploying a bioweapon, or something like that. Or a new model. That was the recursive solution. Yeah, right. You know, we should have safety testing on the outputs at an international level for models that, you know, have a reasonable chance of posing a threat there. I don't think like GPT -4, of course, does not pose any sort of, well, I don't want to say any sort because we don't, yeah, I don't think the GPT -4 poses a material threat on those kinds of things.

49:32And I think there's many safe ways to release a model like this. But, you know, when like significant loss of human life is a serious possibility, like airplanes or any number of other examples where I think we're happy to have some sort of testing framework. I don't think about an airplane when I get on it. I just assume it's going to be safe. Right. Right. So a lot of hand -ranging right now, Sam, about jobs. And you had a lot of, I think did like some sort of a test when you were at YC about UBI and you've been results in that come out very soon. I just it was a five year study that wrapped up or started five years ago.

50:11Well, there was like a beta study first and that was like a long one that ran. But what you are. Yeah, why do you start? Why do you start it? Maybe just explain UBI and why you started it. So we started thinking about this in 2016. Kind of both the same time started thinking, yeah, I really seriously. And the theory was that the magnitude of the change that may come to society and jobs in the economy and sort of in some deeper sense than that, like what the social contract looks like, meant that we should have many studies to study many ideas about new ways to arrange that. I also think that, you know, I'm not like a super fan of how the government has handled most policies designed to help poor people.

51:03And I kind of believe that if you could just give people money, they would make good decisions. The market would do its thing. And, you know, I'm very much in favor of lifting up the floor and reducing eliminating poverty. But I'm interested in better ways to do that than what we have tried for the existing social safety net and kind of the way things have been handled. And I think giving people money is not going to go solve all problems. It's certainly not going to make people happy. But it might solve some problems that it might give people a better horizon with which to help themselves. And I'm interested in that.

51:42I think that now that we see some of the ways, so 2016 was very long time ago, now that we see some of the ways that AI is developing, I wonder if there's better things to do than the traditional conceptualization of UBI. Like I wonder if the future looks something like more like universal basic compute than universal basic income. And everybody gets like a slice of GPT -7's compute and they can use it, they can resell it, they can donate it to somebody to use for cancer research, but what you get is not dollars, but this like productivity slice, yeah, you own like part of the productivity. Right, I would like to shift to the gossip part of this.

52:27Okay, gossip. What gossip? Sam, let's go back to November. What the flying f***ing app?

52:37You know, if you have specific questions, I'm happy to maybe talk about it at some point. So here's the point. What happened? You were fired. You came back. It was a palace intrigue. Did somebody stab you in the back? Did you find AGI? What's going on? This is a safe space. I was fired. I was... I talked about coming back. I kind of was a little bit unsure at the moment about what I wanted to do because I was very upset. And I realized that I really loved opening eye in the people and that I would come back. And I kind of, I knew it was going to be hard. It was even harder than I thought, but I kind of was like, all right, fine.

53:26I agreed to come back. The board like took a while to figure things out. and then we were trying to keep the team together and keep doing things for our customers and sort of started making other plans. Then the board decided to hire a different interim CEO and then everybody, there are many people. Oh my gosh, what was that guy's name? He was there for like a scary moochie, right? Like, and then he said, and then it's great. And I have nothing but good things to say about that. And I was here for a scary moochie. Um, and then where were you when they, um, when you found the news that you've been fired like, well, it was a big.

54:06I was on a hotel room in Vegas for a one weekend. I think that's how it's before you get a text and they're like, what is it in fire? Pick up. I think that's how to you before J. K. I'm trying to think of I ever got fired. I don't think I've gotten time. Um, yeah, I got to know it's just a weird thing. Like it's a text from who? Actually, no, I got a text the night before. And then I got on a phone call with the board, uh, And then that was that. And then I kind of like, I mean, then everything went crazy. I was like a, it was like, I mean, I have, my phone was like unusable. It was just a non -stop vibrating thing.

54:40I was like, that's just called. I was like, you got fired by tweet. That happened a few times during the Trump administration a few, a few, a few, a few, a few, a few hours of just this absolute fugue state. in the hotel room trying to like, I was just confused beyond belief, trying to figure out what to do and so we're, and then like, flew home, it may be like, I've got a plane like, I don't know, 3 PM or something like that. Still just like, you know, crazy non -stop phone blowing up, met up with some people in person. By that evening, I was like, okay, you know, I'll just like go do HDI research and was feeling pretty happy about the future and yeah, you have options And then and then the next morning had this call with a couple of board members about coming back and that led to a few more days of craziness and then And then it kind of I think it got resolved Well, it was like a lot of insanity in between.

55:51But what percentage? What percentage was because of these nonprofit board members? Well, we only have a nonprofit board. So it was all the nonprofit board members. The board had gotten down to six people. They... And then they removed Greg from the board and then fired me. But it was like... But I mean, like, was there a culture class between the people on the board who had only nonprofit experience versus the people who had startup experience? And maybe you can share a little bit about, if you're willing to, the motivation behind the action, anything you can. I think there's always been culture clashes at, look, obviously, not all of those board members are my favorite people in the world, But I have serious respect for the gravity with which they treat AGI and the importance of getting AI safety right.

56:54And even if I stringently disagree with their decision making and actions, which I do, I have never once doubted their integrity or commitment to to sort of shared mission of safe and beneficial AGI. Do I think they made good decisions in the process of that or kind of know how to balance all the things opening I have to get right? No, but I think they're like, the intent. The intent of the magnitude of AGI and getting that right. I actually, let me ask you about that. So the mission of OpenAI is explicitly to create AGI, which I think is really interesting. A lot of people would say that if we create AGI, that would be like an unintended consequence of something gone horribly wrong and they're very afraid of that outcome.

57:55But OpenAI makes that the actual mission. Does that create like more fear about what you're doing? I mean, I just see it can create motivation too, but how do you reconcile that? I guess why is that? I think a lot of the, well, I mean, first I'll say, I'll answer the first question in the second one. I think it does create a great deal of fear. I think a lot of the world is understandably very afraid of AGI or very afraid of even current AI and very excited about it and even more afraid and even more excited about where it's going. And we wrestle with that, but I think it is unavoidable that this is going to happen.

58:38I also think it's going to be tremendously beneficial. But we do have to navigate how to get there in a reasonable way. And a lot of stuff is going to change and change is pretty uncomfortable for people. So there's a lot of pieces that we got to get right. Can I ask a different question? And you have created, I mean, it's the hottest company. And you are literally at the center of the center of the center. But then it's so unique in the sense that all of this value, you, a shoe, economically. Can you just like walk us through like a lot? Yeah, I wish I had taken, I wish I had taken equity. So I never had to answer this question.

59:22If I could go back and talk. Why don't they give you a grand now? Why isn't the board just give you a big option, Graham? like you deserve. Yeah, give you five points. What was the decision back then? Like, why was that so important to you? A decision back then, the original reason was just like the structure of our nonprofit. It was like, there was something about, yeah, okay, this is like nice from a motivations perspective, but mostly it was that our board needed to be a majority of disinterested directors. And I was like, that's fine. I don't need equity right now. I kind of But like, I wish.

59:57But in this weird way. Now that you're running a company, yeah. It creates these weird questions of like, well, what's your real motivation for us to talk about? That it is so deeply on a, one thing I have noticed, it is so deeply unimaginable to people to say, I don't really need more money. Like, and I think people think it's a little bit of an ulterior motive. I think it's a lot of fun. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it's so it assumes it's a lot of fun. doing on the side to make money. If I were just trying to say like I'm going to try to make a trillion dollars with open AI, I think everybody would have an easier time and it would save me.

1:00:31Well, I can save a lot of conspiracy theories. So this is the back channel. You are a great deal maker. I've watched your career. I mean, you're just great at it. You got all these connections. You're really good at raising money. You're fantastic at it. And you got this Johnny I've been going you're in Humane, you're investing in companies, you got the orb, you're raising $7 trillion to build a fabs all this stuff, all of that put together to get a love's thickness. I'm kind of being a little facetia here, obviously you're not raising $7 trillion but maybe that's the market gap of something putting all that aside.

1:01:09The T was you're doing all these deals, they don't trust you because what's your motivation, and you're end -running and what opportunities belong inside of OpenAI, what opportunities should be SAMs, and this group of nonprofit people didn't trust you. Is that what happens? So the things like, you know, device companies, or if we were doing some chipfab companies, like those are not SAM projects. Those would be like, OpenAI would get that equity. It would. Okay, that's not the public's perception. Well, that's not like kind of the people like you who have to like commentate on the stuff all day's perception, which is fair, because we have an announcement stuff because it's not done.

1:01:46I don't think most people in the world are thinking about this, but I agree it spins up a lot of conspiracy theories in tech commentators. And if I could go back, yeah, I would just say, let me take equity and make that super clear. And then I would be like, all right, I'd still be doing it because I really care about AGI and think this is the most interesting work in the world, but it would at least type -check to everybody. What's the chip project that the 7 trillion dollar and what does 7 trillion number come from? I don't know where that came from actually I genuinely don't I think I think the world needs a lot more AI infrastructure a lot more than it's currently planning to build and with a different cost structure the exact way for us to play there is we're still trying to figure that out.

1:02:36What's your preferred model of organizing open AI? Is it sort of like the move fast break things highly distributed small teams or is it more of this organized effort where you need to plan because you want to prevent some of these edge cases. Oh, I have to go in a minute. It's not because it's not to prevent the edge cases that we need to be more organized, but it is that these systems are so complicated and concentrating bets are so important. Like one, you know, at the time before it was like obvious to do this, you have like deep mind or whatever has all these different teams doing all these different things and they're spreading their bets out.

1:03:18and you had open the eye and say, we're going to like basically put the whole company and work together to make GPT -4. And that was like unimaginable for how to run an AR research lab. But it is, I think what works, that it'll minimum it's what works for us. So not because we're trying to prevent edge cases, but because we want to concentrate resources and do these like big, hard, complicated things, we do have a lot of coordination on what we work on. All right, Sam, I know you got to go. You've been great on the hour. Come back any time. Great talking to you guys. Yeah, I think I'm so open about it.

1:03:50We've been talking about it for like a year plus. I'm really happy it finally happened. Yeah, it's awesome I would love to come back on after our next like major launch and I'll be able to talk more directly about Definitely, you got to zoom link same zoom link every week just same time Same time You put on your account come back to the game come back to the game I you know, I would love to play poker. It has been forever. That would be a lot of fun Yeah, that's the thing is handwear, Chamoff, when you and I were heads up, and you had for me. I don't remember, Limey. You and I were heads up and you went all in.

1:04:24I had a set, but there was a straight and a flush on the board. And I'm in the tank trying to figure out if I want to lose this back, we would play small stakes. They might have been like, five K pod or something. And then Chamoff can't stay out of the pond. And he starts plotting the two of us. You should call, you shouldn't call, he's blocking the teeth at the, and I'm like, Chamoff, I'm going, I'm trying to figure out if I make the call here. I make the call and It was like you had a really good hand and I just happened to have a sad I think you had the top -air top kicker or something But you made a great move because the boy was so textured almost like oh bottom set Sam has a great style of playing which I would call random jam totally I don't really know if you I don't know if you can say about anybody I don't I'm not gonna you ever teach about playing the last 18 months It's a lot different I've come to a game.

1:05:11I'm much more so much fun now. Uh, find out. I find that really hard to do. Have you played bomb pot? I don't know what that is. OK, you'll learn it. We'll see. I know. Yeah, he's nuts. It's thank you. Sam, thank you. Two boards and congrats on everything. Honestly, thanks for coming on. And thanks. I'll tell you back when the next half the big launch. Sounds good. Please do. Cool. Bye. Gentlemen, some breaking news here. All those projects, he said, are part of opening eye. And that's something people didn't know before this and a lot of confusion there. Chamapo is your major takeaway from our hour with Sim.

1:05:46I think that these guys are going to be one of the four major companies that matter in this whole space. I think that that's clear. I think what's still unclear is where is the economics going to be? He said something very discrete, but I thought was important, which is, I think he basically, my interpretation is, these models will roughly all be the same, but there's going to be a lot of scaffolding around these models that actually allow you to build these apps. So in many ways, that is like the open source movement. So even if the model itself is never open source, it doesn't much matter because you have to pay for the infrastructure.

1:06:24Right? There's a lot of open source software that runs on Amazon. You still pay AWS something. So I think the right way to think about this now is the models will basically be all really good. And then it's all this other stuff that you'll have to pay for interface whoever builds all this other stuff It's going to be in a position to build a really good business Freiberg he talked a lot about reasoning. It seemed like that he kept going to reasoning and away from the language model Did you know did you note that and anything else that you noted in our arrow with? Yeah, I mean that's a longer conversation because there is a lot of talk about language models eventually evolving to be so generalizable that they can and resolve pretty much like all intelligent function.

1:07:10And so the language model is the foundational model that ELDGI, but that's all, I think there's a lot of people that are different schools that thought on this and how much. Oh my, my other takeaway I think is that the, I think what he also seemed to indicate is, there's like so many, like we're also enraptured by LLMs, but there's so many things other than LLMs that are being baked and rolled by him and by other groups. And I think we have to pay some amount of attention to all those because that's probably where, and I think, Friedberg, you tried to go there in your question, that's where reasoning will really come from, is this mixture of experts approach.

1:07:48And so you're going to have to think multi -dimensionally to reason, right? We do that, right? Do I cross the street or not in this point in time? You reason based on all these multi -inputs. And so there's all these little systems that go into making that decision in your brain. And if you use that as a simple example, there's all this stuff that has to go into making some experience being able to reason intelligently. Thanks. You went right there with the corporate structure, the board. And he gave us a lot more information here. What are your thoughts on the, hey, the chip stuff and the other stuff I'm working on?

1:08:25That's all part of OpenAI. people just don't realize it and in that moment and then you know we're questions to him about equity. Your thoughts on? I'm sure I was like the main guy who asked that question, Jekyll, but what do you do talk about the nonprofit? The difference between the nonprofit? The question about the, that's what I'm talking about. There was some sort of culture clash on the board between the people who originated from the nonprofit world and the people who came from the star of world. The tech said we don't really know more than that but there clearly was some sort of culture clash.

1:08:56I thought one of the a couple of the other areas that he drew attention to that were kind of interesting is he clearly thinks there's a big opportunity on mobile that goes beyond just like having you know a chat you to app on your phone or maybe even having like a searing on your phone. There's clearly something bigger there. He doesn't know exactly what it is, but it's going to require more inputs. It's that you know personal assistant that's seen everything around you and I think that's a great insight David because he was talking about about, hey, I'm looking for a senior team member who can push back on me and understand all context.

1:09:30I thought that was like a very interesting to think about. Yeah, he's talking about an executive assistant or an assistant that has executive function as opposed to being like just an alter ego for you or what he called a second fan. That's kind of interesting. That I thought that was interesting, yeah. Yeah, and clearly he thinks there's a big opportunity in biology and scientific discovery. After the break, I think we should talk about AlphaFull Three, it was just an absolute answer. and we can talk about the the Apple ad in depth. I just want to also make sure people understand when people come on the pod, we don't show them questions, they don't edit the transcript.

1:10:02Nothing is out of bounds. If you were wondering why I didn't ask or we didn't ask about the Elon lawsuit, he's just not going to be able to comment on that. So it would be no comment. So, you know, and we're not going to get any more. And like our time was limited and there's a lot of questions that we could ask him that would have just been a waste of time. And frankly, we've been no comment. So I just want to make sure people understand. Yeah, of course he's going to know comedy lawsuit and he's already been asked about that 500 times. Should we take a quick break before the next before we come back?

1:10:27Yeah, let's take a bio break and then we'll come back with some news for you and some more banter with your favorite besties on the number one podcast in the world. They won't block us. All right, welcome back everybody. Second half of the show. Great guests and I'm all I'm on the pod. We've got a bunch of news on the docket. So let's get started. You told me I could give some names of the guests that we booked for the Olin summit. I did not. You did. You've said each week, every week that I get to say seven names. I did not. I appreciate your interest in the Olin summit's lineup, but we do not yet have enough critical mass to feel like we should go out there.

1:11:09Well, I am a loose cannon, so I will use my two guests and I created the summit and you took it for me. So I've done a great job. I will announce my guess. I don't care which your opinion is. I have booked two guests for the summit and it's going to be sold out. Look at these two guests. I booked for the third time coming back to the summit. Our guy Elon Musk will be there. Hopefully in person, if not, you know, from 40 ,000 feet on a starling connection wherever he is in the world. And for the first time, our friend Mark Cuban will be coming. And so two great guests for you to look forward to.

1:11:45But Freeberg's got like a thousand and guess, coming, he'll tell you when it's like 48 hours before the conference. But yeah, two billionaires who are coming, isn't coming to. Yes, coming. Yes, he's booked. So we have three billionaires. Three billionaires. Yes, hasn't fully confirmed. So don't okay. Well, we're going to say it anyway as penciled in. Don't say, don't say, don't say, penciled. Yeah, don't back out. This is going to be catnet for all these protests organized. There's like, if you have one place, the bear. Well, by the way, speaking of updates, what do you guys think of the model for the all -intakela.

1:12:19Oh, beautiful. Honestly, I will just say I think you are doing a marvelous job. That I was shocked at the design. Shock meaning it is so unique and high quality. I think it's amazing. It would make me drink tequila. You're going to, you're going to want to. It is stunning. Just congratulations and yeah it was just, when we went through the deck at the monthly meeting, it was like, oh, that's nice. Oh, that's nice. We're going through the concept bottles. And then that bottle came up and everybody went crazy. It was like somebody hitting like a Steph Curry hitting a half -core shot. It was like, oh my God.

1:13:00It was just so clear that you've made an iconic bottle that if we can produce it, oh Lord, it is going to be... Looks like we can. Oh, it's like a comic. Yeah. It's gonna be amazing. I'm excited. I'm excited for it. You know, it's like the ball. So complicated that we had to do a feasibility analysis on whether it was actually Manufacturable, but it is so or at least the earlier reports are good. So we're gonna Hopefully we'll have some made for the and time for the all in summit. I Mean why not? So when we get barricaded in by all these protesters Did you see Did you see Peter Till? Peter Till got barricaded by these ding -dongs at Cambridge?

1:13:40Oh my god. Listen, people have the right to protest. I think it's great people are protesting, but surrounding people and threatening them is a little bit over the top and dangerous. I think you're exaggerating what happened. Well, I don't know exactly what happens. All we see is these videos. Look, they're not threatening anybody. And I don't even think they tried to barricade him in. They were just outside the building and because they were blocking the driveway, his car couldn't leave. But he wasn't physically locked in the building or something. Yeah, that's what headlines say, but that could be fake news, fake social.

1:14:13Yeah, this was not on my bingo card. This pro protestor support by SACs was not on the bingo card. I got to say. I didn't see a constitution. The Constitution of the United States in the first amendment provides for the right of assembly, which includes protests and incidents, as long as they're as on as they're are peaceable. Now, obviously, if they go too far and they vandalize or break into buildings or use violence, then that's not peaceable. However, expressing sentiments with which you disagree does not make it violent. And there's all these people out there now making the argument that if you hear something from a protester that you don't like, and you subjectively experience that as a as a threat to your safety, then that somehow this should be treated as valid, like that's basically violent.

1:15:03Well, that's not what the Constitution says. And these people understood well just a few months ago that that was basically snowflakeery. That, you know, just because somebody, you know what I'm saying? Like, we have a lot of these things. We have the rise of the woke right now. Where they're buying into the woke right. They're buying into this idea of safetyism, which is being exposed to ideas you don't like to protest, you don't like, is a threat to your safety? No, it's not. So we have snowflakes on both sides now. It's ridiculous. The only thing I will say that I've seen and is this this This surrounding individuals who you don't want there and locking them in a circle and then moving them out of Yeah, obviously you can't do that, but look I think that Most of the protests on most of the campuses have not crossed the line.

1:15:54They've just occupied the lawns of these campuses and look I've seen some troublemakers try to barge through the encampments and claim that because they can't go through there That's somehow they're being prevented from going to class look you just walk around the lawn and you get to class Okay, and you know some of these videos are showing that these are Effectively right -wing provocateurs who are engaging in left -wing tactics and I don't support it either way Some of these camps are some of the funniest things you've ever seen. It's like there are like At one tent that's dedicated to like a reading room and you go in there and there's like these like Oh my god, it's unbelievably hilarious.

1:16:40There's no question that because the protests are originating on the left that there's some goofy views like you're dealing with like a left -wing Idea complex, right? But and then you know, it's easy to make fun of them doing different things, but But the fact of matter is that most of the protests and mostly campuses are even though they can be annoying because they're occupying part of the lawn, they're not violent. And the way they're being cracked down on, they're sending the police in at 5 a .m. to crack down on these encampments with batons and riot gear. And I find that part to be completely excessive.

1:17:16Well, it's also dangerous because things can escalate when you have mobs of people and large groups of people. So I just want to make sure people understand that. Large group of people, large, you have a diffusion of responsibility that occurs when there's large groups of people who are passionate about things and people can get hurt. People have gotten killed at these things. So just, you know, keep it calm, everybody. I agree with you. Like, what's the harm of these folks protesting on a lawn? It's not a big deal. When they break into buildings, of course. Yeah, that crosses the line, obviously.

1:17:43Yeah. But I mean, let them sit out there and then they'll run out their food cars. I like food card and they run out of office. Did you guys see the clip? I think it was on the University of Washington campus where one kid challenged this antifa guy to a shut contest. Oh, fantastic. I mean, it's some of the funniest stuff. Some of the some content is coming out. That's just hilarious. My favorite was the woman who came out and said that the Columbia students needed humanitarian aid. Oh my God, they need a double on her were hilarious. I was like, uh, humanitarian. I was like, we need our door dash.

1:18:20Right now we need to be double dashed in boba and we can't get it through the police. We need our boba. Low sugar boba with the popping boba bubbles wasn't getting in. But you know, people have the right to protest and a piece of boba, by the way, there's a word I've never heard very good sacks, a piece of bo in client to avoid argument or violent conflict. Very nice. Well, it's in the constitution. It's in the first amendment. Is it really, I haven't heard the word peaceable before. I mean, you and I are some pothico on this. Like, we used to have the ACLU, like backing up the KKK going down main street and really fighting for, yeah, they were really fighting for, and I have to say, the over two window is opened back up.

1:19:03And I think it's great. All right. We got some things on the docket here. I don't know if you guys saw the Apple new iPad and it's getting a bunch of criticism. They use like some giant hydraulic press to crush a bunch of creative tools. EJ turntable, trumpet, piano. People really care about Apple's ads and what they represent. We talked about that mother earth little vignette they created here. What do you think, Freybreg? Do you see the ad? What was your reaction to it? Amy said. It did not make me want to buy an iPad. It made you sad. actually elicited in emotion, meaning like commercials, it's very rare that commercials can actually do that.

1:19:43Most people just zone out. Yeah, they took all this beautiful stuff and hurt it. It didn't feel good. I don't know, it just didn't seem like a good ad. I don't know why they did that. I don't get it. I don't know. I think maybe what they're trying to do is the selling point of this new iPad is that it's the thinnest one. I mean, there's no innovation left. So they're just making the devices thinner. Yeah. So I think the idea was that they were going to take this hydraulic press to represent how ridiculously thin the new iPad is. Now I don't know if the point there was to smush all of that good stuff into the iPad.

1:20:17I don't know if that's what they were trying to convey, but yeah, I think that by destroying all those creative tools that Apple is supposed to represent, it definitely seemed very off brand for them. I think people were reacting to the fact that it was so different than what they would have done in the past. And of course, everyone was saying, well, Steve, I'd never have done this. I do think it did land wrong. I mean, I didn't care that much. But I was kind of asking the question, like, why are they destroying all these creator tools that they're renowned for creating or for turning into the digital version?

1:20:55Yeah. It just didn't land. I mean, Shemoth, how are you doing emotionally after seeing You know, are you okay, buddy? Yeah. I think this is, you guys see that in the Berkshire annual meeting last weekend, Tim Cook was in the audience and Buffett was very lottery. This is an incredible company, but he's so clever with words. He's like, you know, this is an incredible business that we will hold forever, most likely. And it turns out that he sold $20 billion with a couple shares. And the caveat. We're going to hold it forever. Which by the way, if you guys remember, we put that little chart up which shows when he doesn't mention it in the annual letter, it's basically like it's foreshadowing the fact that he is just pounding the cell and he sold 20 billion dollars.

1:21:51Well, also holding it forever could mean one share. Yeah, exactly. We kind of need to know like how much are we talking about? I mean, it's an incredible business that has so much money with nothing to do. They're probably just going to buy back the stock just a total waste. They were floating this rumor of buying Rivian, you know, after they shut down Titan project, your internal project to make a car, it seems like a car is the only thing people can think of that would move the needle in terms of earnings. I think the problem is, J .Kell, like, you kind of become afraid of your own shadow, meaning the folks that are really good at M &A, like you look at Benioff.

1:22:24The thing with Benny off Seminay's strategy is that he's been doing it for 20 years. And so he's cut his teeth on small acquisitions and the market learns to give him trust so that when he proposes like the $27 billion slack acquisition, he's allowed to do that. Another guy, you know, Neckescher -Ora at PANW, these last five years, people were very skeptical that he could actually roll up security because it was a super fragmented market. it, he's gotten permission. Then there are companies like Danner heard that buy hundreds of companies. So all of these folks, for example, you start small and you earn the right to do more.

1:23:01Apple hasn't bought anything more than 50 or 100 million dollars. And so the idea that all of a sudden they come out of the blue and buy a 10, 20 billion dollar company, I think is just totally doesn't stand logic. It's just not possible for them because they'll be so afraid of their own shadow. That's the big problem. It's themselves. Well, if you're running out of in -house innovation and you can't do M &A, then your options are kind of limited. I mean, I do think that the fact that the big news out of Apple is the iPads getting thinner does represent kind of the end of the road in terms of innovation.

1:23:34It's kind of like when they added the third camera to the iPhone. Yeah, I'm running some of those. Remember like when the Gillette Yeah, they did the five. They did the five. It was the best onion thing was like we're doing five effort. But then we did. But then July actually came out with the mock five. So yeah, like the parody became the reality. What are they gonna do? Add two more cameras to the iPhone? Yeah, five cameras on it. Right. Yeah, it makes no sense. And then I don't know anybody wants to remember the Apple vision was like in a plus why are they changing the the fat iPads? That's fair point.

1:24:07That's fair point. Actually, you know what? yet, but it turns out the iPad is on osempic. It's actually dropped a lot. That would have been a funnier ad. Yeah, exactly. Oh, oh, oh, we can just workshop that right here. So there's another funny one which was making the iPhone smaller and smaller and smaller and the iPod smaller and smaller and smaller. It's more or less to the point it was like, you know, like a thumb size iPhone. Like the Ben Stiller phone in Zoolander or in your correct. That was a great seed. Is there a category that you can think of that you would love an Apple product for?

1:24:45There's a product in your life that you would love to have apples version of it. They killed it. I think a lot of people would be very open -minded to an Apple car. They just would. It's a connected internet device, increasingly so. Yeah, and they they managed to flood it. They had a chance to buy Tesla they managed to flood it. Yeah, right? There are just too many examples here where these guys have so much money and not enough ideas. That's a shame It's a bummer. Yeah, the one I always wanted to see them do sax was TV The one I always wanted to do was the TV and they were supposedly working on it like the actual TV Not the little Apple TV box in the back and like that would have been extraordinary to actually have a a gorgeous, you know, big telepathy.

1:25:32What about a gaming console? They could have done that. You know, there's just all these things that they could have done. It's not a lack of imagination because these aren't exactly incredibly world beating ideas. They're sitting right in front of your face. It's just the will to do it. Yeah. You know, you're all in one TV would have been good. If you think back on Apple's product lineup over the years where they've really created value is on how unique the products are. They almost create new categories. Sure, there may have been a quote tablet computer prior to the iPad, but the iPad really defined the tablet computer era.

1:26:08Sure, there was a smartphone or two before the iPhone came along, but it really defined the smartphone, and sure there was a computer before the Apple too, and then it came along and it defined the personal computer. In all these cases, I think Apple strives to define the category. So it's very hard to define a television if you think about it or a gaming console in a way that you take a step up and you say, this is the new thing, this is the new platform. So, I don't know, that's the lens I would look at if I'm Apple in terms of like, can I redefine a car? Can I make, you know, we're all trying to fit them into an existing product bucket, but I think what they've always been so good at is identifying consumer needs and then creating an entirely new way of addressing that need in a real step change function.

1:26:47from the iPod. It was so different from any MP3 player ever. I think the reason why the car could have been completely reimagined by Apple is that they have a level of credibility and trust that I think probably no other company has and absolutely no other tech company has. And we talked about this, but I think this was the third Steve Jobs story that I left out, but in 2000, and I don't know, was it one? I launched a 99 cent download store. I think I've told you this story in Win -Am. Steve Jobs just ran total circles around us, but the reason he was able to is he had all the credibility to go to the labels and get deals done for licensing music that nobody could get done before.

1:27:36I think that's an example of what Apple is able to do, which is to use their political capital to change the rules. vehicles. So if the thing that we would all want is safer roads and autonomous vehicles, there are regions in every town and city that could be completely converted to level 5 autonomous zones. If I had to pick one company that had the credibility to go and change those rules, it's them because they could demonstrate that there was a methodical safe approach to doing something. And so the point is that even in these categories that could be totally reimagined. It's not for a lack of imagination.

1:28:11Again, it just goes back to a complete lack of will. And I understand because if you had $200 billion of capital on your balance sheet, I think it's probably pretty easy to get fat and lazy. Yeah, it is. And they want to have everything built there. People don't remember, but they actually built one of the first digital cameras. And you must have owned this, right, freeburn? You're like, I don't remember this. Yeah, totally. It's beautiful. What did they call it? Was it the eye camera or something? Quick take. Quick take. Quick take. The thing I would like to see Apple build, and I'm surprised they didn't, was a smart home system.

1:28:45The way Apple has nest. A drop cam, a door lock, you know, AV system, go after Questron or whatever, and just have your whole home automated thermostat nest. All of that would be brilliant by Apple. And right now I'm an Apple family that has our, all of our home automation through Google. So it's just kind of sucks. I would like that all to be. Actually, that would be pretty amazing. Like if they did a crustacean or savon. Because then when you just go to your Apple TV, all your cameras just work. You don't need to. Yes. That's the, I mean, and everybody has a home. And everybody automates their home.

1:29:22So everyone has Apple TV at this point. So you just make Apple TV the brain for the home system. Right. That would be your hub. And you can connect your phone to it. And then yes, that would be very nice. Yeah. Like, can you imagine like the ring cameras, all that stuff being integrated? I don't know why they didn't go after that. That seems like the easy layup. Hey, you know, everybody's been talking Friedberg about this alpha fold, this folding proteins. And there's some new version out from Google. And also, Google reportedly, we talked about this before it's also advancing talks to acquire HubSpot.

1:29:59So that rumor for the $30 billion market cap, HubSpot is out there as well. Freebreak, you're as our resident science, Sultan, our resident Sultan of science, and as in Google alumni, pick either story and let's go for it. Yeah, I mean, I'm not sure there's much more to add on the HubSpot acquisition rumors. They are still just rumors, and I think we covered the topic a couple of weeks ago. But I will say that AlphaFult 3 that was just announced today and demonstrated by Google is a real, I would say, breathtaking moment for biology, for bioengineering, for human health, for medicine. And maybe I'll just take 30 seconds to kind of explain it.

1:30:39You remember when they introduced AlphaFold 2, we talked about DNA codes for proteins. So every three letters of DNA codes for an amino acid. So a string of DNA, codes for a string of amino acids, and that's called a gene that produces a protein. And that protein is basically a long, like, think about beads. There's 20 different types of beads, 20 different amino acids that can be strung together. And what happens is that necklace, that bead necklace basically collapses on itself, and all those will be stick together with each other in some complicated way, that we can't deterministically model.

1:31:14And that creates a three -dimensional structure, which is called a protein, that molecule. And that molecule does something interesting. It can break apart other molecules. It can bind molecules. It can move molecules around. So it's basically the machinery of chemistry, of biochemistry. And so proteins are what is encoded in our DNA. And then the proteins do all the work of making living organisms. So Google's AlphaFold project took three dimensional images of proteins and the DNA sequence that codes for those proteins. And then they built a predictive model that predicted the three -dimensional structure of a protein from the DNA that codes for it.

1:31:49And that was a huge breakthrough years ago. What they just announced with AlphaFull3 today is that they're now including all small molecules. So all the other little molecules that go into chemistry and biology that drive the function of everything we see around us, and the way that all those molecules actually bind and fit together is part of the predictive model. Why is that important? Well, let's see that you're designing a new drug. And it's a protein -based drug, which which most drugs are today. You can find a biologic drug that binds to a cancer cell, and then you'll spend 10 years going to clinical trials.

1:32:22And billions of dollars later, you find out that that protein accidentally binds to other stuff and hurts other stuff in the body, and that's an off -target effect or a side effect, and that drug is pulled from the clinical trials and it never goes to market. Most drugs go through that process. They are actually tested in animals and then in humans, and we find all these side effects that arise from those drugs because we don't know how those drugs are going to bind or interact with other things in our biochemistry. And we only discovered after we put it in. But now we can actually model that with software.

1:32:54We can take that drug, we can create a three -dimensional representation of it using the software, and we can model how that drug might interact with all the other cells, all the other proteins, all the other small molecules in the body, to find all the off -target effects that may arise, and decide whether or not that presents a good drug candidate. That is one example of how this capability can be used. And there are many, many others, including creating new proteins that could be used to bind molecules or stick molecules together, or new proteins that could be designed to rip molecules apart.

1:33:26We can now predict the function of three -dimensional molecules using this capability, which opens up all of the software -based design of chemistry, of biology, of drugs, and it really is an incredible breakthrough moment. The interesting thing that happened, though, is Google Alphabet has a subsidiary called isomorphic labs. It is a drug development subsidiary of Alphabet. And they've basically kept all the IP for alpha -fold three in isomorphic. So Google is going to monetize the heck out of this capability. And what they made available was not open source code, but a web -based viewer that scientists for quote non -commercial purposes can use to do some fundamental research in a web -based viewer and make some experiments and try stuff out and how interactions might occur, but no one can use it for commercial use.

1:34:13Only Google's isomorphic labs can. So number one, it's an incredible demonstration of what AI outside of LLMs, which we just talked about with SAM today, and obviously we talked about other models, but LLMs being kind of this consumer text predictive model capability. But outside of that, there's this capability in things like chemistry with these new AI models that can be trained and built to predict things like three -dimensional chemical interactions that is going to open up an entirely new era for human progress. And I think that's what's so exciting. I think the other side of this is Google has hugely advantaged and they just showed the world a little bit about some of these jewels that they have in the treasure chest and they're like, look at what we got.

1:34:53We're going to make all these drugs and they've got partnerships with all these pharma companies and isomorphic labs that they've talked about. And it's going to usher in a new era of drug development design for human health. So all in all it's a pretty like astounding day a lot of people are going crazy over the capability that they just demonstrated and Then it begs all this really interesting question around like, you know, what's Google gonna do with it? And how much value is gonna be created here? So anyway, I thought it was a great story And I just rambled on for a couple minutes, but I don't know It's super interesting is is this AI capable of making a science corner that David Sacks pays attention to?

1:35:26Well, it will it will predict the cure. I think for the common cold and for herpes, so he should pay attention Folding sells is the app that sells casual game sacks to download is playing. How many? How many chess moves did you make during that segment? Sorry, let me just say one more thing. You guys remember we talked about Yam and Aka factors and how challenging it is to basically we can reverse aging if we can get the right proteins into cells to tune the expression of certain genes to make those cells youthful. Right now it's a shotgun approach to trying millions of compounds and combinations of compounds to do them.

1:36:01There's a lot of companies He's actually trying to do this right now to come up with a fountain of youth type product. We can now simulate that. So with this system, one of the things that this alpha -fault -3 can do is predict what molecules will bind and promote certain sequences of DNA, which is exactly what we try and do with the Yamanaka factor -based expression systems, and find ones that won't trigger off -target expression. So meaning we can now go through the search space and software of creating a combination of molecules that theoretically could unlock this fountain of youth to D age all the cells in the body and Introduce an extraordinary kind of health benefit and that's just again one example of the many things that are possible with this sort of pliver I and I'm really I gotta be honest.

1:36:42I'm really just sort of skinning the surface here of what this can do Hmm the capabilities and the impact are gonna be like I don't know I say the sort of stuff a lot But it's gonna be pretty for a path. There's a on the blog post. They have this incredible video that they show of the Coronavirus that creates a common cold. I think the seven PNM protein and not only did they literally like predict it accurately they also predicted how it interacts with an antibody with a sugar It's nuts. So you could see a world where like I don't know you just get a vaccine for the cold and it's kind of like you never have cold again I mean simple stuff, but so powerful and you can filter out stuff that has off target effects So so much of drug discovery and all the side effect stuff can start to be solved for in silica And you could think about running extraordinary large use a model like this run extraordinarily large simulations in a search space of chemistry to find stuff that does things in the body That can unlock you know all these benefits can do all sorts of amazing things to destroy cancer To destroy viruses to repair cells to D .H.

1:37:50cells And this is a hundred billion dollar business. They say oh my god I mean, this alone is too much. I feel like, this is where I, I said this before, I think Google's got this portfolio of quiet, you know, the other story. Yeah, what if they hit? Yeah, what if they hit? And the fact, and I think the fact that they didn't open source everything in this, says a lot of their intentions. Yeah, open source when you're behind close source, lock it up when you're ahead. But the Yamannaka, actually interesting, the Yamannaka is the Japanese whiskey that sacks or something's plain as well. It's delicious.

1:38:21I love that Hokkaido, Nakanama. Jason, if you didn't find your way to Silicon Valley, you could be like a Vegas lounge comedy guy. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Somebody said I should. Like, those 1950s, those 1950s talk shows where the guys would do like the stage show. The stick. Yeah, they said. Somebody told me I should do like Spaldon Gray, Eric Bogosi, and style stuff. I don't know if you guys remember like the model August from the 80s in New York. It's like, oh, that's interesting, maybe. All right, everybody. Thanks for tuning in. to the world's number one podcast. Can you believe we did it, Shema, uh, the world podcast in the world and the all in summit, the Ted killer.

1:39:00If you are going to Ted, congratulations for genuflecting. If you want to talk about real issues, come to the all in summit. And if you were protesting at the all in summit, let us know what mock meet you would like to have freeberg is setting up mock meet stations for all of our protesters. And what Yeah, all vegan. If you want, if you're oatmeal and you're not real friends of just when you come to try different kinds of xanthan gum, you can have from right to most of the nut milks you can want. And then they'll be mindful of the way we have them. So I like to include it. On the south lawn we'll have the goat yoga going on.

1:39:36So just please look at the goat yoga. We'll be going on. I'm very thoughtful for you though. Make sure that our protesters are going to be well, well, fast, well, think care. Yes, we're actually freeberg is working on the protester gift bags the protester gift They're made of Folding produce I think I saw them open for the smashing humcans in 2003 I'll be here for three more nights. Love you boys. Bye. Love you besties. Is this the all -in -poder open mic night? What's going on? It's basically

1:40:16Winners ride. Rainman David Sackett. And it said we open source it to the fans and they've just gone crazy with it. I'm the west. I speak. I'm queen of King Wild. I'm going on. I'm going on. What? What are winners? I'm going on. I'm going on. I'm going on. Besties are gone. I'm going through. That's my dog taking it. I wish you drive away. I'm going on. Oh man. We should all just get a room and just have one big hug or two because they're all just like this like sexual tension that we just need to release some of them. What? You're the beef! What? You're the beer beef. Beef is what? That's good.

1:40:59We need to get merch. I'm going all in.

1:41:10That's episode 178 and now the plugs. The All -In Summit is taking place in Los Angeles on September 8th through the 10th. You can apply for a ticket at summit .allinpodcast .co. Scholarships will be coming soon. If you want to see the four of us interview Sam Altman, you can actually see the video of this podcast on YouTube, youtube .com slash at all -in, which is search all -in podcast, and hit the alert bell and you'll get updates when we post. We're doing a Q &A episode live when the YouTube channel hits 500 ,000 and we're going to do a party in Vegas. My understanding when we hit a million subscribers and look for that as well, you can follow us on xx .com slash the all in pod.

1:41:55Tiktok is all underscore in underscore talk, Instagram, the all in pod. And on LinkedIn, just search for the all in podcast. You can follow at www .x .com .com. And you can sign up for a substack at www .x .com. I do. Freeberg can be followed at x .com slash freeberg. And oh, hello, is hiring. Click on the careers page at oh, hello genetics .com. And you can follow sacks at x .com slash David sacks. Sacks recently spoke at the American moment conference. And people are going crazy for it. It's pinned to his tweet on his x profile. I'm Jason Callacanis. I am x .com slash Jason. And if you want to see pictures of my bulldogs and the food I'm eating go to Instagram .com slash Jason in the first name club.

1:42:38You can listen to my other podcasts this week and startups to search for them on YouTube or your favorite podcast player. We are hiring a researcher apply to be a researcher doing primary research and working with me and producer Nick working in data and science and being able to do great research finance etc. All in podcast .co slash research. It's a full time job working with us the best ease. We'll see you all next time when they all in podcast.