Trump-Xi Summit, Benioff: "Not My First SaaSpocalypse," OpenAI vs Apple, Multi-Sensory AI, El Niño

26:53We want a more connected chamoth. It's going to make for an even better show. It would be incredible. Yes. And I would laugh and I would giggle. We could get into show tunes here. Free break. I know you're big on the show tunes.

27:10David Friedberg:If I only had a heart. If I only had a brain. A heart, a brain. And what's the third one? If I only had a neural link. you gotta give you courage Reedburg

27:24okay move on

27:25David Friedberg:alright let's move on here by the way I took Chamath's kids Chamath stayed home I took his kids to the Wizard of Oz at the sphere it was incredible if you haven't seen it yeah Chamath was like oh do something enriching with my kids or hit the craps table no I'll be honest with you I get a little freaked out in large like groups of people venues yeah I get I get no just just like when there's a lot of people I get very nervous yeah is this because of your newfound celebrity is this is that the issue or is it just always been this way no I don't even want to go there I just have these bad thoughts of like oh my god what if something happens how do we get out and like oh terrorist attack how do you get out to the exit panic disorder I don't know yeah exactly you have panic disorder panic disorder I don't like these large spaces with lots of people I get a little whinged out So anyway, your kids had a great time.

28:18Great show. Tony Robbins lives very near you, Shamath. Don't you think we can get that to happen? Yeah, let's get Tony Robbins in there to clear that blockage. You're a Tony Robbins guy, Mark. Why are you so into Tony Robbins? I love Tony Robbins. I had him at my conference this week. It was incredible, actually. He did an incredible presentation for an hour. Did he unlock for you your success? He claims to, that he has you on the roster of$50 ,000 a year CEOs. I am the number one fan of Tony Robbins. So, I mean, he is pretty awesome. The percentage of your success is attributed to Tony's mentorship.

28:47Hey, if it wasn't for Tony Robbins, I don't think there would be a Salesforce. So there you go. Can you, actually, no jokes aside, can you tell us like what, like what, like what were those big kind of blockages and how did you, how did he help you or how did you work through it? Just focusing on, hey, the questions, you know, the quality of your questions is the quality of your life. It's that insight. And just, are you asking yourself the right questions? What do you want? What's important to you? How are you getting it? What is preventing you from having it? How will you know that you have it?

29:14Just no one had ever said that to me. And then it was just like clear to me, wait, I need to write that down. Like, what do I really want right now? What is my point of focus? And that is what gave me motivation as soon as I got that clarity. I mean, a lot of us do it automatically, but that's not where I was when I was a kid. That's for sure. Did you run across the coals? Did you do any of that kind of stuff? Oh, I have many times. Really? Yeah, of course. Okay. There it is, folks. Hey, we can go together. Absolutely. We had Tony on the show. I tried to get in there and understand his psychology, but he just had us do breathing exercises.

29:48All right. The All In Summit is happening again, fifth year in a row. Wow. We've been doing this for a while. Allin.com slash events, September 13th, 14th, and 15th. We'll have you back, Mark, in year six. But when you score so highly on a keynote, we give you two years off so that we can build up the anticipation. So coming in 2027, our guy, Mark Benioff. But for this year, allin.com slash events. Okay, topic two, AI's impact.

30:16David Friedberg:By the way, real quick, can I just do a quick PSA? A public service announcement coming. Public service announcement. Yes. Nick, just pull up this link. This dog named Scooter needs a home. Promise my wife I'd do this. Don't get mad at me. This dog named Scooter needs a home. He's in Baldwin Park. Dog's about to die. Lives in Baldwin Park at the Animal Care and Control. They're overwhelmed in LA. There are so many homeless street dogs that are being collected. They're all being put to sleep. Someone give this dog a home. Gorgeous dog. His name is Scooter. Link will be on the YouTube channel. Thank you very much.

30:48David Friedberg:Are you getting a little emotional, Freeper, about this dog being put down? I just don't like these, you know, all these street dogs. Like, they didn't choose that situation they were in, and then they all end up kind of getting pulled in by animal care and control, and then they all get put to sleep. Kind of sucks. You're a dog guy. Come on. You got to have a heart. No, I have a big heart. Shamath, it's$10 ,000 to keep these dogs alive for another week. Can we count on you for that donation? any purebred white golden retrievers in that bunch no they're just mutts just mutts we have a cat that we got at the shelter actually kind of a story walked into the shelter learning so looking for a cat all of a sudden we're in the shelter this cat's like coming out you know my kids and all of a sudden they're okay we'll take this cat what is this cat's name this cat's name is cloud.

31:34That's our cat.

31:35David Friedberg:Wow. Absolutely. We have cloud the cat. All right. AI's impact on software rippling through the market. Mark, you're on the front lines here. Thank you for reminding me. Yeah. Well, I mean, in pain and suffering are lessons, right? I think the Buddha and Tony Robbins both taught us that. And the only way to the other side is through, as you know, Mark. So Salesforce down a whopping 37%, 90 billion in losses for you. ServiceNow, 42 % workday, 45%, 180 billion in market caps been lost. And the assumption mark is that AI is going to make it unnecessary for you to use Slack or Salesforce or HubSpot, whatever it happens to be, that you'll just ask your AI to solve this for you.

32:21and we'll all look at a piece of glass and have no actual software. The AI will just tell us what to do. What's your response to the fear, the criticism, and how are you managing this massive change internally? You're right. It's the saspocalypse. I mean, it's not my first saspocalypse, honestly, but it's the current saspocalypse. So we are all now drinking at Salesforce S-Brillas. And we actually have a pet sasquatch as well. We're all a little more sassy. That's what I would say. That's number one. You bring the SaaS to SaaS? We've got to bring the SaaS to SaaSy. You've always been a SaaSy guy.

33:00And then number two is, look, the market is re-rated. It's not a mystery. Everybody knows. You guys have been talking about it for a while. I've been living it. So the software market's re-rated. It happens every now and then. There are cycles. I've been doing Salesforce for 27 years, enterprise software for 40. And the market's re-rated. So you mentioned HubSpot. They're trading at two times sales. I've never seen that before. They just had a great quarter. We saw a lot of great quarters. I looked at the top 10 major enterprise software companies. They all had great quarters. And they're all trading at two times sales.

33:34So why? Because of everything you just said. There's like, you know, a hypnosis around AI. And, you know, we haven't seen it show up in the numbers yet. If it shows up in the numbers, maybe people will be right. Right now, all we know is there's still a lot of enterprise software being sold in the world. So you've been through this. It's not your first time. This is not my first Saspocalypse. I mean, I remember the Saspocalypse of 2020 when COVID happened and everything collapsed. There was the great Saspocalypse. What's your strategy? 2016. What's that? In all sincerity, what's your strategy and how do you deal with your internal team?

34:14Obviously, they are compensated through stock and this is headwind and you have competition for employees from OpenAI, Anthropic and SpaceX. So how do you deal with rallying the troops and then how do you develop a strategy? Well, you're right. I mean, it's a lot easier to be a private company right now where you don't have to be rationalized by the public markets. If you're in the public markets and you get re-rated, that's the reality of being in the public markets. And I think that for what I tell my employees, what I just told my employees is, look, you can't get drunk on the stock price. If you are like focused on today all the time and that is how you're getting, you know, your emotional state, it is not going to work for you.

34:55You have to find a different anchor. So I try not to pay really a lot of attention to it. I'm focused on my customer success, ours, our revenue. Look, we'll do over$46 billion this year, more than$16 billion in cash flow. We have more than 83 ,000 employees. These are the things that I'm focused on. What is the level of customer success that we're delivering? That's a really important, I can't control the stock price. There's nothing I can do. And for our employees, they can't control it either. They need to believe in the company and the quality of the success they're delivering to customers in the long term.

35:29And then you look at the market, you look at these other companies, not just us. They're doing great. And I mean, I saw some great numbers, but it doesn't really matter. The market's re-rated. Well, you've got all that free cash flow. You've been great at acquisition. So I'm sure you're... I've bought some great companies, by the way. Everything's a little cheaper. I like that. Yeah. Chamath, what's your take on this? You've been pretty critical of the SaaS space in previous episodes, pointing out, hey, how durable are these revenues? So what's your take? I think the low end of the market is basically finished.

36:04I think there is no safe space. I think the high end of the market where Mark operates, where the large monoliths operate is quite safe. And the tell was this week. The deployment company deal basically shows you what OpenAI is running into. So, you know, you have to put in$4 billion. You get all of these folks. You gave them a 17.5 % preferred guaranteed return. For what? essentially to stand up a competitor to Ernst & Young, Anderson, Deloitte, PwC, Cognizant, et cetera. If you just look at that, that doesn't actually mathematically make that much sense if you look at what those companies are actually trading at.

36:50But why is OpenAI doing this? I think why is because at the high end of the market, where all the action is, what people are finding is, hey, hold on a second, this is a lot harder than we thought. it's not like boop, boop, boop, put in a, put in a prompt and beep, bat, boop. It all works. It's not how it works. And so I think, I think we're a little, I think we're a little oversold. And I, now I think this consolidation and the re-rating can happen in the opposite direction. So what is the opposite trade? The opposite trade is who has constructive net dollar retention, who has negative churn that's been really predictable, which is a way of saying who has the best relationships, meaning they're inside the CXOs and the C-suite, they have relationships with the CEOs, and they're trusted.

37:39And they've been around for 20 years. Those guys, I think, are positioned to crush. Because eventually, Jason, the next trade that has to happen is when the public markets become a little bit less breathless about AI. And they ask one simple question. Okay, guys, you've spent$3 trillion in the last four years, what is the ROI of these tokens. And what's going to happen is they're going to have to go to guys like Mark and other people and say, please sell my tokens. And that's the next shoe to drop, if you had to ask me. So I think you're going to see these revenues, which are like way out of whack, like the multiples on revenue, multiples on assets, multiples of, they're not even multiples of EBITDA yet.

38:21Those will come way back down. And I think these go back up and you'll find a balance. Yeah, and you've initiated what could only be described as an unprecedented massive stock buyback, Mark,$50 billion? I think it's one of the largest in history. Yeah, we want to buy back as much as we can. And I would just say that, look, at a high level, look, there's awesome new capabilities. Like these coding agents are awesome. Anthropic is awesome. Like I am going to probably use$300 million of Anthropic this year at Salesforce coding. Everything's going to be cheaper to make. It's more efficient. I can do things that I just could not do before.

39:04I can go faster than ever before. I can implement my software and sell it at the same time. I've never been able to do that before. I can break through obstacles that I've had, you know, just by focusing because I have coding agents and humans together working together. Today, I have humans, agents, and headless platforms all interoperating never before. So the opportunity for my own company and the efficiency that I have in my own company in service and support, in distribution, in marketing across the board is unprecedented. What I can do for our customers, unprecedented. And, you know, to that point, my gosh, have you seen Anthropic?

39:47I mean, it is a rocket ship that will not stop because you can use this product to do these incredible, amazing things. And then complement it with platforms like ours. It's, you know, it's impossible to describe what we're going to be able to do for customers. It's going to be awesome. And never waste a crisis. You've been super focused on the efficiency of the company, headcount, share buybacks. And I'm guessing you're looking at M &A. so it's not your first time. Oh, we just finished up one of our biggest deals ever, Informatica, I think it was eight or nine billion dollars. It's been awesome because none of this stuff works if you don't have context.

40:29You know, the AI is very probabilistic, that is, it can kind of figure things out, but it needs to be grounded in real data, and it needs to have that semantic layer. It needs to be locked down into the truth, into a single source of truth or just cannot work well and so our customers want more harmonized data federated data integrated data so we bought informatica our customers want our apps to use those large language models to be able to provide not just automation to their employees but also to their agents just like we just said so like if you call 1-800-NO-SOFTWARE right now for the first time in 27 years you talk to agent force hey agent force what's happening but then after it authenticates you and you get on the system and it doesn't know who you are then boom it'll all auto escalate you to a human being who says oh i can see everything you've been doing oh yeah you just need to resolve this this and that and so that trinity of the phone the web and the human being are all together it's all made possible by this AI.

41:33We just could never do that before. That is awesome. Was it controversial, Mark, to make Slack headless? Was that a big decision or was that a, was everybody kind of mostly on board with that? Well, we were the first to, you know, the way that our platform is architected and Shamath, you know it so well, because you're coding, you're coding agents and the company you're building can run right on top of it and build awesome stuff also. So, you know, number one is we were the first with an XML API, a SOAP API, a REST API, now a CLA API, MCP API. We always wanted to have a platform that had every API possible.

42:09And our apps are not hard-coded where we had to cut the top off of them. They've always been embedded inside our platform. So now we can stream our apps out through a new API called AXL, and I can manifest it into any large language model or device or anything. And it just works better, actually. I think that, you know, when Jack Dorsey wrote that memo, J. Kyle, and part of what he said is he's going to try to run his company by building a world model. My initial thought was, well, where is the context, Mark, what you said before? Where's the semantic understanding to create a world model? And a lot of it for a lot of companies is actually in Slack.

42:49it's in slack and email yeah those two places i showed you that slack bot jason i mean the thing is you're getting because you run your company on slack all your dms all your channels we're reading that now through the ai and we can tell you more about your business than you know because slack bot is reading stuff that you know nobody knew what was happening and like i'm using that myself but i can then connect it into other things so i have the ability to go into salesforce and Google and everything. And so when I'm on Slack bot, I can ask it any question about my company. What are my top five deals?

43:25What do, what are my employees upset about? What are the top three things I need to focus on? And then boom, I get the information because it has the data. I think you should really look at making Slack more open and cheaper and getting more of that context, because there are limitations in terms of getting your data out based on like which plan you're on. It's just too convoluted. But once I upgraded to a higher plan, and you know, it's whatever 612 18k for our small company, I was able to get more and more context to my open claw, plexity computer, and clawed we and we're testing all of those.

44:05And today I wrote literally before I got on the show, a new prompt that is every two hours in our Slack, tell me what decisions are being made, who's making those decisions, and what you would handicap those decisions if you were my chief of staff, if you were a CEO, or if you were a board member. And I created personas to now evaluate decision-making going on. Just through that one lens. I have to show you the new version of Slack. You're going to love it, Jason. And you know that open AI and Anthropik and every AI company is standardized on Slack. Yes. And by the way, and our core sales cloud and service clouds as well.

44:42So I got to show you what we're doing. It's so cool and so fun. What's your advice to let's say you were running a software company that was like before the AI wave and you're private, right? There's a bunch of these companies that were supposed to go public, didn't go public. What should they do? Like, what do those boards do? What they what do they see next for them for all their tears? Because I mean, I talked to these CEOs, they're crying with my market cap. I'm not getting paid for my work. Guys, grow up. You know, that's what I love about the public markets. They rationalize everything all the time.

45:16So, yeah, great. Be in the public markets. You want to be in a private market. Your valuation is fantasy land until somebody is actually going to pay you. So I just tell them, hey, you got to focus on your revenue, focus on your customers, focus on your cash flow, focus on your profitability, focus on your innovation. How are you going to add value to your customers? That's what's really, truly important.

45:39David Friedberg:Freeberg, any thoughts from you? We're doing a big Salesforce implementation at Ohalo. And I would say that one of my observations over the last six months, because we've talked a lot about using these generative tools, is we've kind of dropped all the vertical software, but we're doubling down our investment in horizontal tools. So like we're investing heavily in these platform capabilities that then we're able to build apps and workflows on top of them that are specific to our business rather than try and buy an off-the-shelf app or workflow tool. So I think that there's kind of a really interesting moment right now where we talked about this last time.

46:14David Friedberg:You could kind of discern between founder-led and non-founder-led enterprise software. I also think that there's this kind of vertical horizontal shift where they're kind of trading the same right now. but you could probably break them. You could break that trade. So I think there's probably a good arbitrage there. I think everyone who wants to sell those potato sleeves, seeds, you know, some tools to sell them. But the thing that's kind of cool is, you know, we have 15 ,000 salespeople now. So they're out there selling these products like Slack and selling to David and so forth. But here's the thing that's interesting.

46:47In the last 27 years, we calculated somewhere between 20 and 30 million people. We didn't call back. We did not call them back because we didn't have the people to do it. So just this week, I called back 50 ,000 people, you know, just through agents so I can qualify. I just bought a company called Qualified so I can qualify the agents, call people back, the BDR, the SDR function. I can go outbound. I can do things I could never do before. That is made possible by this AI automation, linking it then to the apps, you can go to another level. Yeah. Okay. Breaking news. I want to get everybody's take on this.

47:27OpenAI, in a breaking news story, is considering suing Apple over their chat GPT partnership. As we all know, two years ago, Apple and OpenAI announced chat GPT would integrate into Siri, iOS, macOS. But according to Bloomberg, the deal has gone so poorly for OpenAI that they might sue Apple for breach of contract. Here are OpenAI's gripes. Apple ChatGPT integration within Siri requires users to specifically say ChatGPT to get results. We probably all experienced this if we haven't given up on Siri, which is the worst personal assistant ever created. Apple hasn't. It's disgraciad to this level.

48:07Disgraciad with this product. How do you get there first and you remain worst. Apple hasn't promoted the integration at all. And users are still overwhelmingly going to the standalone chat, GPT app or others. OpenAI expected billions of subscription revenue from the deal and it hasn't come to fruition. According to Bloomberg, Apple's side of the story is, hey, they have concerns about OpenAI's privacy practices. Maybe they don't trust the guy in charge over there which was a reoccurring theme in the lawsuit and they're annoyed that open ai and here is the palace entry they're upset that open ai is building hardware to compete with apple and that they recruited their design guru johnny ive mark benioff you know the players what is going on here yeah and it's you gotta trust sam altman and open ai i love him but let's just upscale this conversation just one second listen what has happened what happened is we have these llms they're starting to come out come out every company's kind of chosen a slightly different path you had elon he went out he had grok and he kind of started building these companions and sex bots and all this kind of stuff going on and That was a huge focus of his, the sex bot focus.

49:32Then you kind of had OpenAI, and they're doing the Sora video thing, and they're also doing ad networks and crazy stuff like that. Then you had Gemini, and they had the Nano Banana. And then finally, you've got Anthropoc, and they go, we don't know about those sex bots, and we don't know about Nano Banana, but we're going to do coding agents. And it turned out Anthropoc was right. And all of a sudden, the rocket ship took off, and now everybody's like, whoa, where did Anthropoc go? Oh, whoa, they're way up there. and then they're all like we're all gonna do coding agents too and now they're all resetting and gonna hitting their buttons and going coding agents everybody focus focus kill sarah kill this get rid of that sex bots off you know cursor on yeah and that's where we are right now and so everybody look this is what's cool about right now is that everybody is such a dynamic moment in our industry.

50:24It's so exciting that people have to pivot and you have to be ready to focus and refocus and constantly ask the question like, what do you want right now? And everyone is changing what they really want. And if you looked at where everybody was a year ago and where they are now, they're in a totally different place because we all know that when Anthropic 4.6 hit, boom, everyone could code in their companies. And before that, they really couldn't. It was a little bit of a productivity improvement, but not as much as we wanted. Now everybody sees this and goes, wow, this is unbelievable. We're even working on technology inside Slack to make it easier for everybody to code.

51:04So I think it's going to be really... Breaking news, breaking news there. You're going to see some cool stuff with Slack and code. I'm not ready to talk about it yet, but there's no question that we are in a new moment in coding. I mean, chamas got a whole company around it a lot of people have companies around it there's going to be before coding was all about humans and like that's where i started i was 15 years old burling game high school on hands-on keyboard writing video games you know basic 68 000 65 02 you know no no now it's like everyone how's that change your org is it the product manager the developer or the UX designer?

51:44It's all blended. The creator or did it all blend into one? It's all blended together. And who wins? Who wins, Mark? It's all blended together. And by the way, to Mark's point, the hands-on keyboard thing, you know, most of our engineers just speak. So it's like, and so, you know, one of our guys just has a foot-button operated thing. And it's just like... Oh, I have that too. That's all they do. Whisper flow plus pedal. It's all talking. Pedal plus whisper flow and talking. There is no cans on keyboard anymore. All right. So let's get back to this story here. We're going for a dolphin flow at Salesforce.

52:18Dolphins on keyboards. Mahalo for you. Oh, hollow. Freebird, two questions. One, now that Sam has shut down the sex bots, how are you filling that void? And then number two. Thank you, Jermon. And number two, what's your take on the strained relationship here between open AI and the world, and specifically the Apple world.

52:41David Friedberg:I don't know what to tell you. There doesn't seem to be a lot of long-term partnerships with OpenAI. That's a very generous way to say it. What should Apple do? Should they just go back to the loving arms of Google where they made $100 billion being partners with them on the search default, your alma mater? I don't know what to tell. I mean, look, at the end of the day, I think Google has a real opportunity to integrate a Gemini assistant into all of your personal information in Gemini and calendar, your Google Drive, your Google Photos, where all of your personal information sits, it can become your point of calendaring, your point of asking questions about your personal life.

53:23David Friedberg:Hey, when did I email this person, etc. And in the enterprise context, I think that's also up for grabs with G Suite. And so Google has a real chance to kind of own that assistant interface. Maybe Salesforce does too, Mark. Apple obviously has an embedded install piece. How many people are using Apple services for doing all of their mail, for calendaring, for storing their information? I think a good number do. Oh yeah, a lot of billions. Yeah, so that may end up becoming kind of the way that the world silos out is like you'll have an assistant, but the assistant for it to be truly useful to you individually, it has to have access to all of your information, whether it's in an enterprise context or a personal context.

54:03David Friedberg:Apple is probably going to need to either build their own or white label with a partner. It could be Anthropic, could be someone else to get this to really work. But they're going to be up against a formidable competitor, is my point, because I think Google Assistant is going to end up being kind of a real kick-ass product once they get this flywheel gone. Apple has the clearest path to becoming a top two or three player in AI simply by buying something like perplexity, or Mistral, or some AI lab, and then using their hardware footprint, which is extraordinary. I just got this MacBook with 48 gigs of RAM on it with an M5.

54:39It is unbelievable. And the new ones with the studio coming out are going to have a terabyte of RAM. They are going to have a clear path to maintaining your privacy, running local models. And that's going to solve people's problems. It's going to be very easy to index all your images without giving the data to OpenAI, which nobody trusts, or giving it to Gemini. And that's, I think, a big part of why they picked the current CEO is because he's an engineer and hardware-based. I think the future of this is going to be local models running on extraordinary desktop hardware. And if you have employees on this level of hardware running these models local, like I have started to do, they become 10 times more valuable than the employees not running it.

55:22I think Apple is my choice for the next year. I'm not a huge believer in these local models. And the only reason why is I think you want persistence. You have multiple devices, you have multiple persona, you're using a web browser in one instance, you're using a different computer at home in the other. And the idea that you don't have persistence that follows you around in 2026, I think is a breaking feature. so i think you're not going to lug around a five pound macbook pro everywhere you go so that you can get knowledge oh wait you're asking oh wait i got a diagnosis from my doctor hold on a second i don't think that that's you're right i think i think you're both right you're both right the game on the field though is you will uh be able to use iCloud for this as well so it's going to be you know uh effortlessly so well look give me your opinion on this i think the thing that you're assuming is that these form factors don't need to change.

56:17And I just wonder, like, don't we have an iPhone moment that we're just all going to be surprised by where somebody shows up and they're like this thing and you're like, oh my God, that's the thing. Do you know what I mean? Like, yeah, there's enough ingredients here where somebody's going to cook something up. And then you have to think about Jason, the sunk cost of like, you know, look, Apple is incredible, but that's the product of 40 years, 30 years of meticulous process optimization. What do you do if the form factor is totally different and the nature of the device is different? How do you pivot that organization?

56:54You're hitting on something very important and it dovetails with another story on the docket. Mira Mirati released Thinking Machines' new real-time world. That was impressive. And this is super impressive. and super impressive at the same time has patented putting cameras into your airpods so you're right and then i use this plot pin i've talked about it before these persistent hardware devices the watch the earpieces are going to know your entire reality they're going to monitor your entire desktop and this is going to lead to a use of tokens that would be a thousand times what user business users are currently using because the way mirrors we should have her on the pod or at one of our events.

57:34The way her model works, Friedberg, is it's watching your desktop, it's listening to all the voices, and then it's watching your webcam all at the same time. And every 200 milliseconds, it's uploading it to two different models. One is deep thinking and looking backwards, you know, at maybe a 30 second clip and the other ones in real time. That will 1000x the need for tokens if people are doing this for eight hours a day, because it's not the turn based Here's my latest prompt. Here's my question. I got a response. It's in real time, always querying an LLM, which is going to require a hardware upgrade to the average desktop.

58:15Mark Benioff, what are your thoughts on this brave new world? It's one small step for man, one giant leap towards AGI. I think that you said it really well. I mean, we've been so kind of think the LLM is the be all end all. We're going to go to AGI. I don't really understand how large language models, which are only about language and words, and we know how it works. It's one word, one word, therefore the next word is this, is going to get us to where we want to go to, which is minority report or all the science fiction movies that we've seen. But what we saw, and I think, Jason, you'd really articulated that super well, by the way, multisensory models.

58:55And multisensory models, well, here's a good one. Oh, yeah, me, I'm a multisensory model at a biological computer. I'm a multisensory model. I've got these eyes, ears, mouth, you know, work sometimes, some brain, heart, whatever, and some other things going on, too, that I don't even understand. And it's all running in this biological computer. I'm not exactly a large language model, though I do have one sometimes. So I would say that multi-sensory models are the next big wave for AI. And then, but we're still not at AGI at that point, but those demos, like the demo of that model, that was pretty, everyone should see like that was pretty awesome.

59:35And then I think we can kind of say, hmm, where are we now on the path? But I think every model company is going to go, hold on, pivot, you know, again, pivot, right? Say pivot, everybody's pivoting, and you're going to have to pick your poison, and where are you going next, you know? And you can't do everything. You said you were spending$300 million on tokens with Anthropic. Now imagine what this would do to an average, you know, employee if they needed a thousand times the tokens they have now. So instead of spending 150K in tokens, you got to spend, you know, a hundred million, but you have some.

1:00:15I don't think that's true. I don't think that that, I think we're getting brainwashed on that. Okay. So I think that's a mistake to think that way. See, I think we are wasting a lot of these tokens. So I'm like coding. Here's my, I think I convinced you of this. So here we're using$300 million of Anthropic this year and we're coding, we're coding, we're coding, right? The vast majority of those tokens don't need to go to Anthropic. There needs to be some intermediary layer that's saying, oh, that one has to go to Anthropic, but these ones can handle by smaller models. You need a micro that can route it to the most affordable for the job.

1:00:50No, we're like, it's such an early moment. It's an early moment. And I want to connect back to what you said before, which was brilliant, Jason, which was the importance of the edge, because the edge and the cloud are going to come together, okay? And yes, you're going to have more distributed intelligence. It's going to work together. That's going to make a ton of sense, what you said. What Chama said was also completely right. You were both right. Then you combine it to this idea. Let's put it together where we're going. Yes, we're going to have more distributed intelligence. We're going to have intelligence on the edge.

1:01:22We're going to have multi-sensory models. And yes, you're going to do coding and it's going to be more efficient though. So to think that it's going to be always so expensive, that is just the moment of time that we're at right now. And I think there's going to be a hot new company that's going to come along and say this, I'm going to sit between you and Anthropic and OpenAI, and I'm going to make sure that you only need their tokens when you actually need them. And that is not really where we are right now yeah does that make sense what i'm saying like totally you're like it's like oh i need a shower and okay great all the water no no no i just need some water i don't need all the water yeah okay all right listen we uh have two final topics here we can talk about anthropic unrolling the dark spvs and the impact that has on the market or we can go to everybody's favorite science corner well do both just do a quick uh around the around the neighborhood yeah Okay, lightning round on, we'll do SPVs last.

1:02:25Freberg, what do you got in Science Corner? Everybody, all the Freberg fans, just distraught when we skip it. So let's give them - Not a good one. Mark, do you like Science Corner? No, you do.

1:02:35David Friedberg:I do. Come on. Yeah. Only if it's about the oceans. Mark is the greatest salesman in Silicon Valley. He loves it all, and he wants to hear more. Mark, how did you learn sales? How do we become half as good as you? I'm not a good salesman. I'm a geek. You are. But you know how to like... I'm going to go to Tony Robbins seminar. Let's go. Okay. Walk over the coals together. Let's roll. We're all going to Tony. Put out the coals. We're walking across him. Nick, let's pull up the first chart. This science corner is about the dreaded El Nino season that is coming up. And so this is a forecast for sea surface temperature anomalies.

1:03:13David Friedberg:And basically what this means is that the ocean at this point has heated up so much that there's now a forecast on ocean temperatures that are going to exceed anything we have seen in recent history. So we're kind of looking at temperatures that might be four degrees above normal. That doesn't sound like a lot. But let's just look at this image. That top image is the sea surface temperature anomaly. That means how different the sea surface or the ocean temperatures are. Why does that matter? And this is compared to 1877 when we had the biggest El Nino year ever. and I'll explain what that means in a moment, but why does this all matter?

1:03:51David Friedberg:The reason is the oceans are the battery of weather. What happens at one part of the year is that the oceans absorb heat energy and absorb, absorb, absorb, gets hotter and hotter and hotter and then that heat energy is released into the atmosphere and then the atmosphere drives the weather events that happen all over the world and it becomes somewhat predictable that you can estimate what the weather over the next year is going to be like based on how the temperatures are sitting in the ocean today. and at this point there is so much excess energy stored up in the oceans i'll give you guys a statistic it's about 11 million terawatt hours the whole planet earth uses 25 000 terawatt hours in a year so 11 million extra terawatt hours of energy is currently stored up that's 500 years worth of human energy in this ocean and over the next few months that energy is going to be released into the atmosphere.

1:04:43David Friedberg:And that will absolutely 99 % confidence that will make the upcoming year the hottest year on record by far that humans have ever experienced, or at least that we've experienced in recent history where we didn't have data going back a long time. It changes the trade winds, which changes how a lot of the weather evolves from a normal season. It changes the moisture in the atmosphere in certain parts of the world. And I'll just give you some highlights of what this means over the coming year. There will be major atmospheric river events where you just get water dumped on you in the southwest in California and the Gulf Coast.

1:05:17David Friedberg:You'll have very low snowfall and very high heat waves in the northern part of the U.S. going up to Canada. You guys remember all those fires a couple years ago in Canada. Interior regions of the U.S. like in Phoenix and and so on, they're already seeing temperatures at 106 degrees in May. A super El Nino like is forecasted for this year could extend that duration of these heat domes, which could create temperatures that we've never seen in those areas. Southern Argentina, Chile, Brazil could see record shattering heat waves. And this is where things start to get a little nasty, because when that happens, the crops start to fail.

1:05:49David Friedberg:And in many parts of the world, Brazil, India, Australia, these are critical local consumption for large populations, but also major ag export markets. So if Brazil's crop fails, if Australia's wheat crop fails, Australia's wheat crop goes to places like Indonesia and the Philippines. Hundreds of millions of people depend on that wheat crop. Hundreds of millions of people depend on the exports out of Brazil. Brazil's the world's largest ag exporter. And the scariest one of all is if the monsoons fail, which is now a very high probability event in India. 150 million farmers in India that depend on their agricultural output or they don't make any money, they can't survive.

1:06:28David Friedberg:and one and a half billion people that depend on that food. So the importance of this El Nino event goes beyond just like an interesting weather anecdote. But if you think about the second and third effects of this over the next year, you could see energy prices spiking and electricity spiking and the grid failing in parts of the Southwest, commodity prices spiking all over the world. And then you would see places like India, the Philippines, Vietnam, starting to face some sort of unrest if there isn't enough food supply that's coming into those markets. And then the question in India is a really nasty one because there isn't a really good solution.

1:07:02David Friedberg:India and markets like it that are significantly dependent on having their monsoon event, but also are currently facing a shortage of nitrogen-based fertilizer because of the crisis with Iran and the Strait of Hormuz, which we've talked about as a double whammy. So over the next year in South Asia, you could see a calorie deficit and a major kind of economic crisis that starts to emerge. So this El Nino event, I just wanted to kind of bring it up as an interesting science corner because the data now seems pretty confirmed that over the next few months, we're going to have this record-breaking El Nino.

1:07:35David Friedberg:And these are the sorts of consequences that will play out over the next year. This is scary. God damn. What do you do about the food problem? That's a big problem. That's a big problem. And this is the commodity markets are going wild for this right now. Did this happen the last time we had an El Nino? Yeah. So when we have El Nino, there's a severity of these sorts of events happening. No, I mean, did we have a food shortage problem in the last El Nino? Oh, yeah. When we have El Nino, there's food shortages that come out of Australia, Brazil. You see these events. That's a regular part of the thing.

1:08:06David Friedberg:The problem this year is the index is so off the charts. It is so far beyond anything we've seen. And it's correlated, obviously, with the severity that it triggers a crisis that may be really difficult to manage in a lot of places. So the US is a net ag exporter. So from a US perspective, our big issues to worry about are the fire season. By the way, this does decrease Atlantic hurricanes, you're going to have fewer hurricanes this year in the in the south. But you know, you have these kind of major storm events that happen in California, the heat waves, electricity prices, we're probably more stable than other parts of the world.

1:08:39David Friedberg:But think about the Brazil, the ag export market is such a significant part of the economy and Brazil has a debt problem, that this could end up becoming an economic problem in some parts of the world, including Brazil. So the commodity markets are trading this El Nino event pretty actively right now. It's become kind of a focal area for a lot of folks in commodity markets. Can your super seeds help or no? That's a longer term solution. But I mean, look, we're like, at the end of the day, having, it's actually a good point, but having genetics, a crop genetics that can adapt to a more rapidly changing climate is going to be critical over the next couple of decades.

1:09:15David Friedberg:That's a big kind of macro. Isn't another part of this, Friedberg, that as certain places heat up, they actually become viable places to put crops, i.e. Canada or the northern part of the United States. So we're seeing the actual places you can grow certain crops, independent of genetic modification, is expanding. In other words, farmland's expanding because of global warming. Right. So we increasingly grow soybeans in Canada. That was not the case two decades ago through both plant breeding where we've made the genetics adapt, but also the warmer temperature, the shorter winters and whatnot. They've been able to grow that crop further north.

1:09:54David Friedberg:But if you guys go back a couple of years, there were major heat waves and droughts in Australia. Huge fires. Yeah. Huge fires. But remember that wheat goes to Indonesia. It goes to Vietnam. It goes to these countries with hundreds of millions of people dependent on it. And then they got to go scramble and find it elsewhere. Now, on a global basis, there's always a bit of a give and a take. But in a year like this, when you have this much energy pumped into the atmosphere, you may not have the give and the take. And that's where things start to buckle. All right. So yeah, it's just like an early warning sign.

1:10:24David Friedberg:I know I've given food warnings, food crisis warnings twice before on the show. You gave a really good one for Ukraine four years ago, and it turned out that that warning resulted in a negotiation to allow wheat to flow out of Ukraine, that Russia, Ukraine, and other folks made a specific carve-out in their war to make sure that famine didn't spread. Yeah, and the fertilizer export was negotiated at the start of the war as well, which was critical for sure. I think you played a role in raising awareness for that, so I'll give you credit there, Freeberg. Mark, thanks for coming on the program. Sorry that at the end of the program we all want to commit seppuku here, but we have Dr.

1:11:02Doom, and he always loves to end the show. There he is. Coming from Marvel in December.

1:11:08David Friedberg:Do you want to wrap with an upbeat Anthropoc story or something? Avengers Doomsday starring David Friedberg coming to the Marvel franchise in December. Yes, you thought Robert Downey Jr. was playing him. It's actually Friedberg. Here's your meme. It's not Mark Benioff's first time here in the Sasspocalypse. Oh, no. There it is. First time. Oh, come on. he's like i've been doing this before boys i'm buying my stock back somebody cut that rope yeah absolutely all right listen uh i'll just lightning around this one anthropic has had enough of the shenanigans of the multi-tiered multi-layered spvs being sold to dentists for 10 percent load-in fees i think we all knew this day was coming since it's becoming the wild west they called out specific platforms and they said we're going to negate them Chamath, Tempest in a teapot, or long overdue punishment for bad actors?

1:12:07Love. Mark said it right. All these companies should go public and get a valuation and focus on the higher order bit. And all of these ticky-tacky mechanisms that people can use to stay private longer need to get a bullet put in its head. And these SPVs are the worst, the layered SPVs on SPVs on SPVs. By the way, and I will guarantee you this, once SpaceX goes public, once Anthropic goes public, once OpenAI goes public, you're going to see a litany of these lawsuits back and forth between the purveyors of these SPVs. They should not be allowed. They should be all negated if possible. Now, you can't unbreak the egg.

1:12:48So I guess you just have to call it what it is. I hope every company adopts this. And I hope as a result, these companies go public sooner and they rationalize their equity structure faster i think it's the right thing to do so i like the fact that anthropic just say it's not well it's not discratio i just i just think that you are going to have a lot of yeah no well you're going to have a lot of people that are going to be very upset once this spacex thing comes up because inevitably because it happened in uber somebody gets screwed in a layered spv somewhere that they didn't know and they're going to be like what happened read the fine print you're getting double carry and you paid 10 on the load-in fee and you paid a price 10 over what the last round was so it's a recipe for disaster the fine recipe for disaster recipe for disaster hey mark great job thanks so much great to be with you guys yeah come back anytime you were great hey there's a we have a fan question here this is a fan question that came in written by your pr department they want to know when you do your charity work uh or your innovation as a founder Are you more, you know, at this stage in your career, you're known for both of these things.

1:13:56Are you more Steve Jobs or more Lorraine Powell right now? What your PR department work very, very deep. The best decision I ever made the best. When I started Salesforce, we put 1 % of our equity, 1 % of our profit and 1 % of all of our employees time into a foundation. Today, we've done more than 10 million hours of volunteerism. We've given away more than a billion dollars in grants. And we run over 50 ,000 nonprofits for free on our platform. That's just Salesforce. Every company should do this. It's amazing. Pledge1percent.org. That's my advertisement for the show. Everybody should jump on the 111 platform.

1:14:37Best decision I ever made 27 years ago. Irrespective of it, I've obviously done a huge amount of personal philanthropy to five hospitals. You did one that was really, I think, personal. Susan Wojcicki tragically died of cancer and meteorologist. You're going to get me crying. Let's not go there. This is not. You're talking about my best friend, bestie, my bestie. She was a special person, huh? She's a star. The best. She was the best. Just, I mean. I'm not kidding. I'm not kidding. Tell the audience what was so unique about Susan. Tell them. It's a good time to do a remembrance. She, this was one of the great people on the planet.

1:15:16Incredible woman. Mother of five. amazing children and two amazing sisters, great family. Everybody knows Anne, her sister, her sister Janet at UCSF. Sorry, my eyes are tearing up, but I'll just tell you that she contracted a very rare form of cancer, passed away too young a couple years ago now, and she was on our board. She was one of the great people of all time. I'm so grateful that her family is focusing on on building a new foundation to go after this rare cancer. We're backing it. I think everybody should. Look, everyone should try to be a Susan. She was one of the absolute greats. And I have an altar in my office when you come to see me.

1:16:02You'll see what the photos of her and me. And I think about her every single day. And my heart just stays with her, her husband, Dennis, all the children, the sisters, the whole Wachiki family, amazing and one of the great institutions in silicon valley we're lucky to have the whole family yeah she was fantastic all right well said rest in peace susan we're checking thank you all right we'll see you all next time on the podcast love you see you guys aloha thanks for bye-bye