Mary Cosby on Her Son's Death: 'I Feel Him With Me'

0:00Every day, animals across the country face abuse and neglect. And every day, the ASPCA shows up to rescue animals in crisis. But they can't do it alone. Visit ASPCA.org slash need. Become a donor today to provide the care and shelter these animals urgently need. And for a limited time, the ASPCA will send you a free gift as a special thank you. Visit ASPCA.org slash need. Welcome to All There Is. Wherever you are in the world and in your grief, I'm glad you're here. My guest today is Mary Cosby. She appears on Bravo's The Real Housewives of Salt Lake City. Her only child, Robert Cosby Jr., died in February 2026 after a struggle with addiction.

0:47He was 23 years old. Over the years, we've heard from so many of you who have lost loved ones to addiction. And a few weeks ago on All There Is Live, our streaming show, I talked with a woman named Wendy Guardioso, whose daughter Holly struggled with opioid addiction for 23 years. Holly stopped using finally. She was clean for two years, but the drugs had damaged her heart and she died of a heart attack. This kind of loss has been experienced by so many people through the opioid crisis. And I think sometimes it's forgotten about because you lose them over and over and over. It tears the family apart.

1:26We always loved her, and we always tried to be there for her in every way we could, but I felt just terrible guilt over, there must have been something else I could have done. And I think that so many families that have gone through this, where you're grieving the loss of someone who's still walking around and breathing and talking and continuing to hurt you and cause devastation to the family unit, but they're not there. It's not them doing it. That's very hard to live year after year after year. That interview is from our companion show, All There Is Live, which you can check out at cnn.com slash allthereis.

2:07Mary Cosby is coming up on the first anniversary of her son, Robert's death. She and her husband, Robert Cosby Sr., lead the Faith Temple Pentecostal Church in Salt Lake City. There's been controversy about it, but the focus of our conversation with Mary was the loss of her son. Her perspective on grief is one I don't think we've had on this podcast, and we also talk about the role her faith plays in how she approaches the loss of her son. Thank you so much for doing this. You're welcome. Tell me about Robert Jr. Robert Jr. was this kind, sheltered, innocent young man. I had a love for him that I don't think I would have ever experienced through anything, any other scenario in my life.

2:55He was so, just, he was real. And he had a kind heart, you know, and he was sensitive. I didn't like that. I wanted him to be tough like me. I wanted him to have that confidence. and, you know, he was more shy and kind of easier to influence, you know, but he brought joy to me. He was my friend. You said you thought of him as your best friend. He was. I know I wasn't his, but he was mine because he was so honest. You know, he was just so real. A lot of things I understood about him because I saw myself through it. And I think those are the reasons why he became my best friend. I just, I don't trust people.

3:34And I trusted him and he trusted me. And we just had a really good bond, healthy. You called him Bubz? I do call him Bubz, yes. You called him Bubz? Where did that come from? It derives from his name is Robert and Robert Sr.'s nickname is Bobby. So I took Bobby and said Bubz so they wouldn't both have the nickname Bobby. So I called him Bubz, yeah. When did you start to notice some issues? Probably two years ago. I didn't notice, but I got told. It became a rumor, I guess, and it came out. And I took my son aside and said, is this true? Are you doing this? He's like, yeah, Mom. I just didn't want to tell you.

4:16I read that he'd been arrested for a DUI in 2022. Yes. Was that a warning sign to you at all? Or did that just seem like one of those things? I just thought it was not normal. But, I mean, it happens. You know, I trusted him. That was probably my fault. He lived at home. Yes, he did. Yes. I wanted him to be at home until he was 50. I did. I loved it. I loved him being at home. I felt he was safe. And everything happened at home. He left. He was in his room. He died at home. Yes. Well, I don't see. That's how I get through it. Because I don't say in my mind, I don't say he died. Yeah. I just say he passed over.

4:58He transitioned. He went to the other side. just because I have to keep myself up and I have to go by what I feel. I don't feel like I won't see him again, if that makes sense. And I feel him. I feel him with me. Do you talk to him? No. No, no, no. I don't feel him that much. I mean, I'll say, I love you, bubs, and then I can hear it in my head. Love you too, mom. Just like a voice or just like a push or just like a spirit. I feel that love. I still feel Him. So that gives me hope. That makes me think that God is our only judge, and He's the only one that can judge Him. And I know He's going to judge Him what He deserves.

5:42And so that just makes me happy, and it gives me rest. And I don't say that He—I don't even use that word. I just say past or transitioned. Even the homegoing, we call it a homegoing. Not a funeral, a homegoing. Yes. Dying from a broken heart is a choice and you can choose it. And it did visit me. And I did. You thought about it. I did. I did. And that little voice was like, no, mom, go on. Like I thought when they go, they take a piece of you. He took a chunk of me. So it did visit me and I chose not to go there. I chose not to be dark. These were choices that I was physically, mentally making, trying to get through that really dark time in the beginning.

6:31To not be dark, what does that mean? Dark is thinking on them, thinking why. I feel like acceptance is the key to the light. I feel like when you accept that and you accept their passing or their going, it speeds up the grief. Because no one goes unless it's their time. I don't care what they do. You feel sadness, obviously. I definitely, I mean, but it's so great that you. Are you pushing it away? I do. I absolutely push it. I push it and I take it in increments. I take it in doses, you know, every now and then I, and then I bring myself right out. It's so interesting how different people respond to different things.

7:12It's like my mom completely gave herself over to the overwhelming sadness and horror. And my mom was in her bed weeping, crying, crying, crying, until she said she had no more tears left. But it was helpful for her. Do you cry? Or do you try not to? I cry. I don't know. You're the first person that even talked to me like this. but I don't think I... By the way, anything I ask that you don't want to talk about is totally fine. No, I love it. This is beautiful. I need this. This is good for me. I do cry, but I cry when I talk about it. But I don't cry in silence. I don't cry and stay in my bed. I just...

7:57You don't wake up in the morning and think of him and then tears come and you cry for... Because I've never done that in my life and now I... You do it? I have tears like I could cry right now. It's all the tears I haven't cried my entire life that have just been sitting there, I think. You're acquainted with grief. And I think once you get acquainted with it, like my mom died last year and we had to find her. She was in Maryland with her husband and he left her in the hospital and she died. We don't know what happened. She was all alone. She was all alone. So my brother and I called and found her.

8:38My other brother was able to get her body back to Salt Lake, to Utah. And I wasn't invited to the funeral. I didn't know when it was. They just totally left me out. Stuff like that hurts, you know, more than my kid, who I know is safe, who I feel like he left this world, but it's for a purpose. And it was for a reason. And that has to come out good. So I have like a feeling of okayness with my kid, with my mom. Yeah. I could cry with her. But your mom, did she disown you or did she? No, she, but she went against you. She rejected your church. And me, yes. But it's because we didn't give her full power.

9:21She wanted to take control of the church after your grandmother died. Yes. But control was given to you over the church. So she was angry about that, upset about that. Because I read she'd made some sort of public statement against the church. And then were you in communication at all? No. That was it? Never spoke to her again. Wow. Until I heard she died. 20 plus years. Wow. And she never spoke to me. Had you been close prior to that? I was very close to my mom. I was the youngest. I'm the youngest out of five. I was the baby. And yeah, I loved my mom. That was my best friend. Was my mom. There's got to be grief associated with that.

9:57Yeah, but it also toughened you up. It sharpened you up. It also helps you to just, when you talk to people or when you move through life, you can just say no. Because you've been through the gauntlet on that. I can't, that is probably it. Your mom doing that to you, did it change you? I mean, it obviously changed your relationship. I think it did. I think it made me stronger. Stronger. I think it made me. Tougher? I feel like I'm already tough. But yeah, it made me tougher. It also made me see humanity different. I don't trust people. I don't let people in. I don't want to be hurt. I don't want them to.

10:34Because my dad died four years prior to my mom. And my dad left when I was six. And I didn't see him again until I was 21. Wow. Mm-hmm. So you had had no relationship with him from the time you were six? I don't even really know him. I mean, even before your son, you've lost a lot. Mm-hmm. You've lost your family. Mm-hmm. And when you lose your parents, you know, that's a different kind of grief. Yeah, that's a heavy one. That's a one that if you've been through it, then you can understand other than that. And to lose them before they're actually dead too is a whole other level. Yeah, it's the same feeling, I think.

11:12I remember when my dad left, it hurt me. I remember him bending down. I remember it perfectly. And he said, I'm going to call you. I'm going to remember you. I will send you birthday cards. I love you. I'm your dad. I love you forever. and that's what he'd been down and said to me, but he was lying. Do you feel anger? No. Toward your mom or your dad? I forgave my mom. I feel forgiveness for her. I feel like her passing was the closure because that's what she wanted. So she got what she wanted. I don't believe in closure. I think it's a made-up word. I don't believe in it either. But I mean, for me to bring the forgiveness, it has to be some type of resolution there.

11:53The idea of forgiveness, does that come from a biblical, like a religious feeling? Probably. Yes. Probably a bringing installed and beat into me, cultivated in me. You have to forgive. It's a part of you. It has to do everything with you. It has nothing to do with the person you're forgiving. Forgiveness is for me. It's for my personal growth. I was taught it shackles you down. It holds you down. Not forgiving, holding. Anger. Yeah. Just grudge holding and just being balled up. It's not healthy. It's so interesting because I didn't grow up in a faith tradition, although I'm really interested in it.

12:28Okay. But I do think if you have the kind of faith that you have, it gives you, I don't know if it's an armor, but it gives you an explanation that if you believe it, can be helpful. Like, he's in a better place or there's a reason for this. And you believe there's a reason for all of this. I do. I do. I believe 100%. I believe with every ounce of me that God would never intentionally put pain on us. Really? No. Absolutely not. I believe that he can guide you. He gets you through it, and he does give you an armor. Why does God have to allow horrible things to happen? I don't know. I don't know why, but it has to be a reason.

13:20I feel like we find out eventually through time. But you do question, God, why? But I don't. I just accept it. If he's allowing it, he's picking a soldier that can take, like for you, as an example, he puts his hardest and heaviest battles on the strongest soldiers. And I believe that. Because I don't know, if I wasn't strong, I would not have gotten through my kid. My dad died, then I buried him, my mom died, buried her, and then now my child. So I'm like, okay, now what? You know? I mean, I wish I had that faith. I think terrible things happen to good people and bad people, but terrible things happen all the time.

14:08And there is no reason behind it, and there is no explanation for it. So do you believe that they're going because it's their time? Otherwise... Absolutely not. I think horrible things happen to little babies and children and things that shouldn't happen to anybody. I believe that life brings what's meant to happen. And it's acceptance. Once you accept that it was their time, no one can do anything about their time. I mean, we all at some point have to visit our time. So it was your son's time, you believe? I do. I do because this wasn't the first time. I believe that he should have been gone years ago.

14:55Because of the risks he had taken, things he had done. Yes, I do. And I know it seems like his life was so short because he was 23.

15:07But it's okay, you know? His 24th birthday is coming up. November. November 8th. What will you do? Nothing. Nothing. Just probably pray, go to church, celebrate. I know, I thought about that, but I don't— Because birthdays or anniversaries can be hard. Sunday was our 28th anniversary, but I didn't—it was beautiful. I didn't—Bubs didn't come up, but I was like, wow. I did think this is our first anniversary without our son. I thought that, but it came—it was a thought, and it left. I don't know how I'm doing this, Anderson. I don't have answers, but I just, I don't know. I feel okay. And I don't want to be down.

15:50I don't want to be in sorrow. You know, I don't want to be in grief. I certainly don't want it to show on my face. You know, like. You don't want it to show on your face? I don't. I don't want to. Because. I just don't want people to look at me and know what I've been through. You know, I don't want to. That's so interesting. Because for the first time in my life, I'm okay with people seeing it. Okay. opposed to my entire life completely hiding it i don't feel like i i'm hiding it but i feel like it's okay you know it's going to be okay because what's supposed to happen for me it happened and i i'm supposed to get through it that's my purpose and you don't cry i don't think i i know i guess i did i mean it's i don't know i think i've seen on the show and some as you're talking some tears have come.

16:39Yes. But there's not times when you wake up in the morning and just with thoughts of the people you've lost and you've spent time crying. I came across this quote by a writer, Washington Irving, who said, there's a sacredness in tears. They are not the mark of weakness, but a power. They speak more eloquently than 10 ,000 tongues. They are the messengers of overwhelming grief, of deep contrition, and of unspeakable love. I don't get me wrong. I'm not against tears If I feel to cry I will if I feel to scream I will But I just don't let those emotions rise up in me because I don't feel like It would be easy for me to get back That's what you're worried about is like if I start down that road I'm not coming back from it, right?

17:29I don't think I will Like even mentally I think when you lose loved ones, it's a mental thing so I just Don't want to even explore Or, yeah, I just don't even want to see what could happen. I don't feel like that's healthy for me. I know everyone grieves different, and their griefs are some drastic, some you don't even probably see them grieving at all. But I feel like I have my own way in grieving. We'll be back with Mary Cosby in a moment. I'm Dr. Sanjay Gupta, host of the Chasing Life podcast. We get to talk to the men's winner of the New York City Marathon. Andreas Almgren, he's a self-coached 31-year-old who was, get this, making his marathon debut.

18:14He never ran a marathon before he won it. If someone wanted to start getting serious about running, and they wanted to approach it like a data scientist like you do, how would you suggest they start? Be patient. My peak weeks, I ran like 140, 150 miles per week or something. Wow. Either increase the distance or you should increase the intensity. should never increase both at the same time. Listen to Chasing Life, streaming now wherever you get your podcasts.

18:46I just want to show this conversation that you and Robert had in 2024, months before it actually aired, which was in November of 2024. Let's play this. So, Bub, do you see this as a problem? Are you unhappy? When did you start? I just turned 16. At first I was like, I'm going to just stick to natural stuff. And then I went to a party and someone gave me Xanax. And then I was like, I like this. And then I started buying it. Then I started doing Xanax with acid. And then Molly with Xanax. Because I really like Xanax, so I mix it with everything. because I had some cocaine. Oh, my God. You know the regular 30-milligram oxys?

19:40Mm-hmm. I noticed, like... This was like a turning point for me. It was like I was taking 10 at once, and I couldn't even feel it. I couldn't feel it at all.

19:57Oh, my God. I won't judge you. I can help you I can try to help you but you have to help yourself because I'm not going to support it I'm not you know I'm not I mean you start this conversation did you at that point know what he was what he was going to say I had no idea he was going to say that he totally shocked me I was in shock I'm wondering what was going through your mind What was going through my mind was, oh my God, what am I doing as a parent? Why am I not here for my kid? Like the whole time I'm thinking, where have I been? You felt you had missed something. I did feel like I missed something in parenting and in his life.

20:47While he's telling me this, I'm thought, did I not do the right thing? How did I miss my kid? I felt like he fell between my fingers. I was holding him, but he got through some kind of way. He did what he wanted. So I think I blame myself for spoiling him, giving him whatever he wanted, when he wanted it. I wanted to give him a life I didn't have. I didn't want him to go without. And I probably should have let him suffer a little bit just so that he would know how to navigate adulthood. Because I don't think he did. That's the only thing I tell myself. But other than that, I'm good. I did everything I know to do.

21:27for my son and I. I loved him. I loved him pure. I never lied to him. But he just started doing his own thing. He started doing him, and that's what we got. There's another part of that conversation that you had, because it continued, that I just want to play. I want to die. I wanted to die at the time. Do you know? Do you know how that would kill me?

21:59I just felt like a stain. I felt like a stain. I just felt like this world wasn't for me. If something ever happened to you, do you understand? Do you understand what happened to me? I don't think I'll do anything. You're the only reason I didn't kill myself.

22:25Thank you, baby.

22:37You have to know I love you more than anything More than anything in this world God gave you to me You're the only thing that ever made me happy Before I had you, I was never happy You came and you were so real You was everything I hoped for in a person I just barely started being

23:03Please, babe Recognize it, own it And change it Because you can Thank you I love you so much I love you so much I love you so much I love you so much I love you, too He was never afraid of it. He was never afraid of death? No, he was never afraid of death. He was never afraid of the other side. He was actually curious in it, which was bizarre. Clearly, he felt something. I mean, I feel like this was his time all along. And he just acted like it was okay, that there was something on the other side for him. I don't know. He would talk like that. He was very curious about death. When you heard him talk about wanting to die or thinking about death.

24:03I did not see that coming. I did not expect it. You had never thought that? No. Considered it? And I thought, oh, my goodness. For me, that's a selfish act because you're not thinking about the people that love you. And it's unconsciously. unconsciously. I mean, it's not like you're, oh, I need to focus on my mom and her feelings. And then this next thing, I think I'm just going to go ahead and lay down my life and I'm good. But to me, it starts from kind of being selfish. And so I thought to myself, did I miss the mark on that even? And I look back and I probably did. I probably spoiled him in that way where he just showed him to think about himself because he got really self-centered at the end.

24:52He told you that he felt like a stain. That hurt you? Yeah, that cut me. What about that? A stain? I just felt like he thought he was disgusting. He knows the stains are my pet peeve. I don't like stains on my clothes. I don't like stains on carpet. So I guess he related it to that in that way for me to really understand how he felt about himself. He chose that word specifically? Because he knew that. Wow, that's interesting. And it just broke my heart. Did he seem to you to be in tremendous pain? I think so. But I don't know from what. Yeah, it felt like it. It looked like it. And even in his eyes, he just, like, there was a void there.

25:40Was there a time when you saw that shift in his eyes? Was there a moment you saw that? I didn't catch that. So it wasn't an overnight thing you don't feel? You feel like it was a gradual? I do feel it was gradual, yes. Because he was fine, you know? And he came off plenty of times. They don't come off unless their mind is made up. They don't, you know, people want, like, you can't force somebody. You cannot. You can't put them, you can't make them. You can't, you can't even talk them into it. They have to want it. And if they don't want it, what you're doing is no good. And that, that's what I tell myself too, because I did everything I know to do.

26:21And at this point it was up to him. It was left up to him. And that's what he chose. And I have to accept that. he got arrested in september of 2025 violating like an order of protection and he was booked into jail on november 9th he was sentenced february 3rd and then released from the time he was released the time he died how long was it like three weeks oh the last the last time he because he went like two or three times and then that last time i kept him in there um to help him You hoped that being in jail might wake him up. I did. Absolutely, I did. But I didn't like how it made me feel. So I couldn't have kept going through that.

27:06What about it? What do you mean? You feel sick. You feel sad. You feel... Knowing he's... Knowing they're locked up in jail. It just makes the parent feel horrible. How is my son in jail? Like, this is not where he comes from. This is not what he knows. I don't know how we're here. Did you talk to him when he was in jail? Did you visit? Every day. Every day. No, I don't visit. You never went? No. You didn't want to see him like that? No, I don't want that. I didn't want that memory in my head. It might sound harsh, but I'm not going to jail. I wasn't going for my son. Did you see him after he was released, before he died?

27:44Yes, he came home. He came home? He came home, and he was home for three weeks. What was that like? a ball of fear in your stomach of praying and hoping that he didn't go back. And that's another stage of something I just don't want to ever visit again. Were you worried constantly that, is he using again? Is he not? That's exactly what it was. Worrying about if he's going to fall off. Is he going to go back? Is he going to go back to the same people? It's got to be terrifying. It is. It is very terrifying. And it's stressful. and it hurts. Maybe this is why I deal with the passing in the way I do, because I feel like it's for his good.

28:30It's for my good. It's for Robert Sr.'s good. I think a lot of people teased him a lot about my marriage and how unconventional, and I think his friends would say little things. I think that could have been part of the thing that bothered him and made him feel like he didn't belong. The fact that your husband was married to your grandmother previously. And my understanding is in your grandmother's will, your grandmother started this church and in her will said that she wanted one of her daughters to take care of her husband. Yes, that's correct. Yeah. And so after she died, you inherited the church and married the man who had been your step-grandfather.

29:17Which I didn't know him like that. You know, you have people in your family. It wasn't that kind of a relationship. No, no. Because I couldn't have done that. It was weird anyway. It was weird anyway. It was weird anyway. I was like, no. I mean, it sounds a little weird. And it was. Who am I to judge? Yeah. And I'm okay with that. You know what I mean? But it was. But I saw the Lord is what I did. And I made sure that that's what he wanted me to do because I thought, what? This is insane. Who does this? The reason you brought that up is you were saying that Robert's friends made fun of him for that.

29:49I think they did. They'd call him incest, call him names. I think that kind of haunted him a little bit. But I'd never had a conversation with him. And that is the one thing I regret, that I never sat down and talked to him about that. Just to let him know that it's okay. You regret that? And I don't regret. I try not to. But I regret that. You said somewhere that his death changed you. How so? I feel like when people leave this world and they are a part of you or close to you or your children, even your parents, I feel like they take a piece of you with them. And a piece of me, I feel different.

30:30I see things different. I don't hold back. I'm just myself. I'm really myself. I know I'm unfiltered. I've always been unfiltered, but I'm unfiltered in a way more with confidence. I'm not going to live in regrets. I'm going to say it and I'm going to stand in it. I'm going to mean it. And that's how I live my life now. Is that because the worst has happened and you're still here? Probably. And at this point, I have nothing to lose. I have nothing to lose. I do think there's something about when you have been through the worst possible thing that can happen, it can give you a sense of what have I got to lose?

31:14I mean, the worst has happened. There's nothing you can do to me that is worse than this. So I went back and filmed. My understanding is producers of Bravo said, look, you don't have to be on this season. Yeah. They just started shooting. And I think after three weeks, you went back. Why? I went back because I didn't want to sit in it. I didn't want to be in silence. I just didn't want to just do nothing. I wanted to stay busy. I wanted to be occupied. I wanted to be distracted. So I went after it, you know, and I just thought, okay, well, just film. And make sure none of the women come after you.

31:50And they did. They did? They did. How so? So Angie, that was my bestie, right? supposedly. And she kept doing things like we are filming and we kind of get into it. And I said, Angie, I said, stop being so angry at Bronwyn. I said, and worry about yourself. Worry about the people that matter to you. Worry about your husband. Worry about your daughter because you still have them. Like worry about the importance of life. I mean, I'm speaking from someone who just lost their kid. And I said, and your friends. And I put it towards me. And she goes, oh yeah, Mary? Well, what about your son, huh? I said, oh!

32:28I looked at her, I said, huh? I said, my kid? Got up, understand, and walked off. I kept my exposure, I kept my cool, I just walked off, it's bringing tears to my eyes. It hurt.

32:46It was bad. It was my son. No, it just... I'm sorry. I just didn't understand, like, how can a human say that? Sorry.

33:09And that was the one thing I think Bravo was trying to spare me from, is from getting more hurt. But I don't think anything can hurt me more than after what happened to my child. And that certainly didn't. I couldn't believe it. I still sometimes can't. I don't know where all that anger's pent up for me. Getting through just my life and just constantly burying somebody, constantly talked about, constantly saying I'm off, I'm weird, because I married my, you know. and you think the people you're sitting next with or you break bread with are the people that you have and you think that they will be there in your time of need and when they don't, they say something like that.

34:04It just makes you go backwards in trust and humanity. You were saying how you haven't cried and stuff, but those tears came pretty easy. I'm a crier. There's a lot of hurt there. I think I'm a crier, but I don't want to go there. I don't just weep. I don't. And I don't want to. Because? Because I feel like it would be doubting my faith. It'll be doubting God. It'll be doubting the direction. You know? If I cry, it's because it's negative. If I cry, it's because I don't understand. It would be a sign you don't believe he's in a better place or you don't believe that there's a reason for it. Yes.

34:45But you can still have pain over it. I definitely have pain. Even though. It's such a pain that's so big and so heavy and so deep that I don't even talk to people about this. Unless you've already been through it and you understand it and you know what I'm talking about. Otherwise, I don't even want people to know because it's like they won't relate. Most people are not acquainted with grief. Most people don't understand grief and the magnitude, especially in losing a kid or even losing a parent. It's a kind of grief that you kind of have to be acquainted with. I think maybe losing my dad, losing my mom, losing my grandmother, I think that that is helping me get through my son.

35:27And I don't want to have those days where I just stay in the bed and I cry and I can't get out of bed because I think that's more wearing on my mental. I don't want to make it a mental thing. And that's why I don't cry. I feel like I gave him all the tools. I didn't have any tools left. I did everything in my power to do. It was up to him at some point. Did he ever want to try rehab or anything like that? He's been to rehab. He went to a beautiful rehab in Malibu for 30 days. He used to go to a rehab at the University of Utah. If his mind's not made up, it's all for no good. You know? It's all for nothing.

36:06And at the end, his mind just got set. It just went into concrete on what he wanted to do, and he was not listening. And that was scary. But I didn't think this would happen. I didn't see it. I just thought that he'd eventually come out of it and he'd eventually be okay. And just do life, just what he had opportunity to do and chose not to do it. It's very sad. It's really sad. Yeah. No one's ever said that. It's beautiful. It is sad. Sad but true. See, and I don't feel sad. Even telling you, I don't feel sad. Like, yeah, I don't feel that. Because it's meant to be or it's part of the plan. I mean, I can't change anything.

36:55I never try to control the things I can't change. You just find yourself always complaining and always unhappy and always in a disfigured mindset. because you can't change what it's supposed to be, and you can't worry about it. Otherwise, you just find yourself spiraling down into a dark place that there's no return. Do you believe you'll see him again? I do. I do. And I feel like when you have that feeling, it has to be good, and I feel like that comes with being able to feel them, that you will see them on the other side. again. And he'll be whole and clean and the boy you remember. Thank you so much.

37:43Anderson, thank you so much. If you have thoughts you'd like to share about my conversation with Mary, you can leave us a comment on our grief community page, cnn.com slash all there is. If there's something you've learned in grief that would be helpful for others, we'd love to hear from you, leave us a voicemail at 404-827-1805. On Thursday, November 19th, I hope you join me at 9.15 p.m. for my streaming show, All There Is Live. It's on every other Thursday. You can watch new episodes live at cnn.com slash allthereis, and the show is free to stream there for a week after it airs live. To watch all the episodes of All There Is Live, you need to subscribe to CNN All Access at cnn.com slash allaccess.

38:23On Wednesday, November 25th, we'll be sharing my conversation with a woman named Claudia Vanderpool, who left a moving voicemail about the complicated grief she feels for her brother, Rodney, who struggled with mental illness throughout his life. Despite the physical and emotional scars he inflicted on their family, she says she saw the little boy he was underneath what she called his lion suit. Here's her voicemail. My name is Claudia. I lost my brother to cancer. It was a complicated grief because he He struggled with pretty significant mental illness all his life. When I was a little girl, he made life pretty scary.

39:04At times, he had given my father a knife and was begging my father to kill him, to put him out of his misery. But it was at that moment I saw my brother, for who he really was. He was just a little boy underneath a lion suit. And I just saw him from then on as that little boy. So when this little boy got cancer, I knew what I had to do is just take a year out of my life to care for him in hospitals. Because I knew that he would have a hard time in a facility. Part of our family and friends thought it was kind of crazy. what's ironic is that he had a lion tattooed on his arm with the word gentle underneath.

39:58I don't know why as a little girl I saw the real brother underneath and I'm just so grateful that my brother had a sister next to him when he died. I loved the little boy behind the lion suit. We'll be sharing my conversation with Claudia on the podcast on Wednesday, November 25th. Thanks so much for listening.