16 Alien Bodies Crashed HERE… And We Just Found Evidence

23:06All charred or burned in the same blue jumpsuits.

23:13My only theory, and that's all it is, is perhaps that hole, like I said earlier, may have been a weapon, a.50 caliber rifled machine gun or whatever when it was flying over Los Alamos and maybe mass decompression. Possibly some type of gas within the chamber that as soon as it was breached by a spark would ignite some type of instant explosion that just like at the same time, you know. Or maybe electromagnetic damage before they understood how to describe, you know, that. Sure, yeah. Or electrical charge or something. Electrical charge. Meanwhile, Baptist minister Solon Brown is cruising down the highway outside Aztec when he sees the mass of cars at Heart Canyon.

24:03He was a roaming Baptist minister that was in charge of many churches. And he went out there to open up the First Baptist Church in Mancoast, Colorado, which is maybe a 40-minute drive from the crash site. He pulls over.

24:21Solon walks up to the opening of the saucer and leans in, but doesn't go inside. Years later, he said he saw a few of the beings, maybe three, slumped over some kind of table or panel, an account that's notably consistent with all of the others. And he was shocked that they were so chocked. Not really the typical alien described to us. They were more childlike. No hair, one-piece blue jumpsuits, no insignias, no anything to give rank, serial number. Then the group sees something that's almost as strange and futuristic as a flying saucer. A helicopter. I think Ken was the first one to tell me about the helicopter.

25:10He said all of a sudden a very small helicopter showed up and kind of circled around the crash site and then took off to the northeast. They all admit seeing the helicopter. I mean, that was one very consistent story. And Doug said, I didn't know what was more spectacular, this disc laying on the mace for a helicopter. And I said, what are you talking about? Well, helicopters just came out in 48. In 1948, most people had never seen one in real life. And now here's one circling right over their heads. But just over the years, the consistency in the story, what the craft looked like, they all talked about the hole in the porthole.

25:50They all talked about the same time the military showed up. The rest of the story sounds like the familiar UFO crash retrieval playbook. The military swarms the scene, seals it off from the public, and threatens the witnesses to keep quiet. They all agree that nobody had any insignias to identify who they were. Not Army, Marine Corps, whatever. The guys in the military were not young guys. Most look like they're in their 30s or 40s. Mature, gruff, and extremely well-trained. Moving precisely and deliberately. Doug laughed and said it was like a bunch of drill sergeants, you know, talking to you at the same time.

26:38And they seem to know exactly how to secure a site and pull off a recovery. Roswell was less than a year earlier, and everyone knows how badly they botched that operation. But this time, the military knew exactly what it was doing. Oh yeah, they learned a lot in eight months. Roswell, they did a press release, put it on the front page of the paper, and then of course came up and denied it and came up with a weather balloon theory after that. No, Aztec was well-oiled. You weren't out here today. There's nothing out here. There never was. When the military tells Ken to beat it, he doesn't listen.

27:16He mouthed off and said, you guys don't have any jurisdiction, and I'm not in the military. You can't tell me what to do. And I think he got the butt of a gun in his gut for talking that way.

27:34By this time, the military had started pulling bodies out. There were 14 to 16 bodies at the craft site. And one of the military members said, well, you know, basically, Father, we're glad you're here. Can you give these bodies last rites? And he said, well, I'm not Catholic. I'm a Baptist preacher, but I'd be more than happy to say a prayer over him. And by the way, what happened? And they said, we really can't get into details. May your souls find the peace they deserve and rest in eternal peace. And then was told to leave, which he did. And the bodies, if they didn't look like what you'd typically expect in an alien, you know, some of the aliens that we see depicted, grays and stuff, are childlike, what exactly did they look like?

28:19Children. By mid-morning, the military pretty much owns that mesa. No one can get through. Two girls on horseback try to pass, but are stopped by plainclothes men standing besides a parked Jeep. Very friendly, very casually dressed, said, girls, I'm sorry, you can't go any further. There's a situation up the road. It isn't safe. Go on home. Go on now. So I'm hearing this story, and I'm thinking, God, what a good memory. And I said, and she's senior to my age, and I said, I got to ask, how do you know it was March 25th? And she said, because it was my birthday.

29:10Later that night, Solon Brown is in the living room of Bruce Sayre, a deacon with whom he is discussing plans for building a church. Solon tells him about the profound experience. You don't believe me. I believe you. I'm sitting here in shock is all. Solon breaks down and cries. 60 years later, Bruce Sayers' son would tell Scott Ramsey why he never forgot that night. It was the first time that he'd ever seen a grown man cry.

29:45For the weeks following the crash, the military camps out at the Mesa. Scientists are brought in to study the craft. When this group was originally brought out to the crash site, they spent the first two days hanging back and waving Geiger counters at it. They were worried about radiation. Sounds like a group that might have been briefed on UFOs, which are notorious for emitting radiation. They enter further and observe strange hieroglyphic symbols. They can't stay inside the craft for longer than 20 minutes at a time because some negative energy overcomes them. A gloomy feeling of doom that witnesses like Bob Lazar would describe years later.

30:30It's a real ominous, creepy feeling. And a lot of it is because of the black. It doesn't look right. There was also a nurse that checked each one of the scientists for the length of time that they would be in the craft because they became sick to their stomach if they were in more than 20 minutes. The Ramses would later place nine scientists in total on that mesa. More on exactly how they got there later. But every name on their list traces back to the same wartime science network run by one man. Vannevar Bush, which means whoever was making these calls, wasn't improvising. And they probably came from the deepest part of America's nuclear program.

31:23So, I mean, 100 feet, have you guys measured out how big 100 feet would have been? Like, what's the size? I'm bad with, like, scale. Well, it's 100 yards, so a third of a football field. Yeah, again, I'm Canadian. You need to... 33 meters. Yeah. 33 meters. That's it. Okay, yeah. Wow, okay. So, like, from there to, like, there, pretty much. Yeah. That's massive. Then it's time to transfer the craft out of there. A bulldozer cuts a new road up to the mesa, clearing pinion trees as it climbs. And while all of this is happening, a spring storm moves across the mesa. Snow blows sideways through the site.

32:10It gathers on the ground, on the rocks, but not on the craft. Snow strikes the saucer and disappears. Nothing accumulates. That detail comes from a young airman on perimeter security named Donald Bass. He was flown up from Roswell and driven in from Durango, and he slept in the bed of a truck for two weeks while the recovery took place. At the top, crews pour a concrete slab and set rebar into the wet foundation. Two cranes work in tandem over the saucer. A gear ring at its base is removed. Look at this. Is this the crane spot? Oh yeah, it is. Concrete slab. No way. It used to be in perfect condition, but we have souvenir hunting.

32:56That's what they do. They come out here and bust it up with the rocks. So this is a poured concrete. Why would you pour concrete out here? If you're going to drag an 100-foot-in-diameter craft off a mesa with a crane, you need solid footing. And silt isn't solid. So somewhere out here in 1948, someone in a hurry mixed concrete. And concrete is hard to clean up. Debunkers called this concrete slab an oil well cap. But there's an oil well cap that's next to the site. And it's dramatically bigger than this concrete slab. I don't know if you just want to grab a picture of that. It's like a medium to large one there.

33:36That's crazy. Instead, this thing looks like it was built bespoke and ad hoc to drag a craft out of the area. When I asked Scott and Suzanne where that whole oil well cap cover story came from, they said it was a famous debunker named Carl Flock. Flock is a self-reported former CIA agent, so I'll let you come to your own conclusions there. Then, something called a dragon wagon begins backing its way up the newly cut road. This was a heavy-duty tank transport that the Army used during World War II. They, on the back of the Dragon wagon, had two stabilizing footers. When they tried to put the arms down, it just kept going into the silk.

34:20Put something heavy under it, something solid. How do you take a craft that big, move it down a steep terrain, and then get it out of there?

34:35Frank Scully, who wrote Behind the Flying Saucers, talked about the craft cable part and sections. So if we can take the craft and take it in reasonable pieces, getting it out of there would require one thing, and that was something Suzanne didn't want to hear, but reenacting it. How much did you spend on reenacting the crash retrieval for the Aztec craft? In excess of$14 ,000 that week. Scott actually tracked down an Air Force officer who claims that he helped them make the entire Aztec retrieval team disappear, at least on paper. In their earlier books, the Ramseys pseudonymously called him George.

35:20200 people worked that recovery, and that he was in charge of updating their personnel records daily for two weeks, making it look like the retrieval team in Aztec wasn't actually an Aztec at all. After this interview, they were finally able to release his real name, Tech Sergeant Dick Harper. He said, I was never at the crash site. He said, my job was basically keeping personnel records. A little more detail, what's that mean? He said, well, roughly 200 people were involved in the whole Aztec recovery. So I kept 200 personnel records to make sure nobody was ever really an Aztec. I said, well, can I have more detail on that?

35:58He He said, well, let's just say that week that you may have been there or the two-week operation you were there, I'd have you at MacDill. And then I'd have you sprain an ankle playing volleyball. And then I'd have you in the infirmary for a few days. So if you ever come public and talk about it, the Air Force can go, well, that's not true. You were at MacDill that week or that month or that year or whatever. And he said, that was my full-time job. He said, I did see intel briefings on it. And I saw black and white photos of it. And he said it was a very large craft.

36:38The evidence that something crashed at Aztec is overwhelming. Even the trees at the Hart Canyon crash site are splayed outwards, as if a craft was dragged through a very specific path. Back when I first started talking to Bill Steinman, he brought up an interesting point. we were comparing notes about the crash site. Once we confirmed, we were both at the same site. And Bill said, you know, if they drag that thing up to the dragon wagon, they use soft trees to do it over. These aren't going to hurt anything. And he said, notice they're all splayed to the northeast. I said, you know, Bill, I noticed a lot of damage to trees.

37:21I never noticed they were splayed to the northeast. And as we walked back to the car, they're all laid down. My joke is they don't have hurricanes here like we have in North Carolina. And something laid them all down.

37:41So they managed to get the craft out, but the mesa was a wreck. Drag marks, broken and bent trees, and a path of destruction pointing in one direction. If you're running the most secretive recovery in the country, that's a loose end you don't want to leave. It's not enough to just remove the craft. You have to fix the scene. And in 1999, a man who claims he was sent to the crash site to fix it, to paper it over for the government, wrote Scott a letter. His name is Fred Reed. All we brought today was a letter he wrote me in 99, but we have another letter he wrote afterwards. I thought they were together.

38:21And this is the original. It's quite interesting. Dated March 27th, 1999. And was he on the crash retrieval team for HISTAC? No, he came late. The craft was gone. Everything was gone. They came basically to re-landscape the Mesa. It was basically not a typical crash site that they cleaned up before, but it looked like a lot of heavy equipment had gone in there. But I thought it was interesting. He said that they, this was not the first site they cleaned up. But years later he learned that it was a flying saucer. Wow. And their focus was to try and make it appear as if nothing happened there. Nothing happened.

39:04The problem is that later on we had the opportunity to see an aerial view and you can actually see how the... They're very... there's a section that are very symmetrical. They're in lines and of course nature, organic, is random. Yep. It's not in a line. But these are in lines. But these are in lines, yeah. And I guess what goes through my mind is that you can just imagine someone down there, you're not looking from an aerial view and thinking, well, we just got to fill in this space. And you just start putting them in. And of course, because we landscape our houses, we do it in lines. That's probably, you know, naturally where their mind would go without thinking we're trying to look like nature.

39:49Yeah, they're not trying to cover up a crash site. That's exactly it. That's exactly it. Reed had actually cleaned up other crash sites involving secret prototype aircraft. And no matter how thorough the recovery, something was always left behind. A fragment of metal, a piece of plexiglass, some trace of what happened. But at Heart Canyon, there was nothing. It was like the site had already been scrubbed abnormally clean. But in 1999, the Ramseys did actually find something. What looks like a little polished marble, totally out of place. When they showed me it, I encouraged them to send it out to the lab for testing.

40:31They agreed, and we'll show you those test results at the end of this episode. 18 or so people stood up there that morning. Every one of them went home and said nothing. So why, after so many corroborating eyewitnesses, does Aztec carry this stigma? Why was this thing branded a hoax? Now begins part two of our story, the makings of a hoax. The case against Aztec and the reason Wikipedia lists it as a hoax all starts with one man, Frank Scully. Some people say, oh, he's just a writer for variety. They're missing the whole point. That's almost like a discredit for the depth and the knowledge that he had.

41:19Scully was one of the most interesting men in American journalism. Columbia trained. One leg, one lung. He'd ghostwritten for the great George Bernard Shaw. Behind the Flying Saucers was published in 1950. And as you know, it was the first public account of the Aztec event. He was approached by Silas Newton and Leo Gebauer that said, we want you to meet with a scientist that has an interesting story to tell you. And we feel the story is going to break, but these scientists wanted to break through you. There were eight scientists, one died, and they had to replace him. So when you're talking how many scientists were involved in coming forward, it was a total of nine.

42:04They met in the Mojave Desert with one of them. And he starts to tell Frank this amazing story about a flying saucer recovery. I think they embellished a little bit of the intensity and the urgency of getting the story out. And the reason being, I think they were afraid the story was going to get buried so deep that nobody would know about it. And the technology on that craft apparently was something that boggled their mind.

42:32Behind the Flying Saucer was one of the first books ever to claim that the U.S. government had recovered a crashed alien spacecraft. This is well before we knew anything about Roswell, when that came out years later in 1979. And he cast the whole story as a cover-up, with the military hiding the discovery to prevent panic and keep the technology secret. it. These are now motivations we can now confidently attribute to the U.S. government at the time when it comes to UFOs, if you just look at documents like the Robertson memo. At first, the book was a hit, but after that, the smear campaign ensued, and it went up in flames.

43:10And for the next 70-plus years, Scully had been reduced to a gullible Hollywood gossip columnist tricked into a story by two conmen. But Frank Scully wasn't just a tabloid guy who printed nonsense. The man was a vault. He was the kind of guy people trusted with their deepest secrets. He never released the scientists' names. He never released anything that he couldn't. He was just sworn to secrecy upon himself and went to his deathbed with it. I think he was a very honorable man. Years after publishing behind The Flying Saucers, he was knighted by Pope Pius the 12th and inducted into the Pontifical Order of St.

43:50Gregory the Great, not exactly the resume of a guy who was universally regarded as a joke. The man who torched his reputation, along with Gabe Hours and Newton's, and helped bury Aztec for over 70 years, was another writer, one who wanted the story for himself, didn't get it, and held one hell of a grudge. And worse, he had the money, time, and connections to do something about it. J.P. Kahn was a journalist at the San Francisco Chronicle and an ambitious writer who believed that the Aztec crash story could be one of the biggest in the country. When the only outlet of the story was Frank Scully's variety, Kahn decided he was the man to turn that story into a book.

44:34He approached Scully and offered him$10 ,000 for the rights to the story. But Scully refused. Scully proceeds and writes it, and J.P. Khan was so embarrassed at telling everyone that he was going to be able to do it, that he decides that I have some time on my hands and I will go ahead and discredit Scott. The only con was J.P. Khan. I mean, really, he was the con artist. Well, he was also somehow connected with J. Edgar Hoover, who we know, I mean, now it's the consensus in America that J. Edgar Hoover was systematically blackmailing people who sought truth and wanted good things to happen in our country.

45:22J.P. Kahn then went after Scully's sources and painted them as conmen and fraudsters, starting with Silas Newton. Silas M. Newton was an oil man and not a small one. He then became a working geophysicist who found oil for a living. He was obsessed with magnetism, not just in the context of finding oil. He thought that its principles would revolutionize flight and energy. Very, very successful, very wealthy. In 1950, according to the FBI, it was worth$20 million. He was well off, well connected, and well within earshot of the whole Aztec story, given his oil prospecting ventures in the area. But Kahn had his connections as well.

46:06On April 25th, 1951, he had the California Attorney General's Office contact the FBI to look into Newton, questioning his claims of conducting secret government research and accusing him of being in on a hoax. But Kahn was probably just feeding the FBI information about Silas Newton the whole time. Remember, J. Edgar Hoover ran the FBI, and he and Kahn were friends. So we decided to go through the FBI's extensive files on Silas Newton. We are writing to you because stated blank a name stated that a complete investigation of Newton has been made by your bureau. I wonder if that's J.P. Kahn. Presumably, this investigation has confirmed his cryptic allusions to his being engaged in governmental research of a secret nature.

46:54Other circumstances coming to our attention in light of his criminal record indicate to us that Newton is engaged in the perpetration of an hoax or swindle of large proportions. So before Khan had even come into the picture, the FBI had already dug into Newton's background. A document from July 1st, 1941 mentions, He appears to be a good American citizen, has no accent in his speech, and has never made an un-American or disloyal or unsympathetic remarks. As the Ramseys point out in their book, It Came to Earth at Aztec, it almost seems like Newton was being vetted for something. Maybe he was being screened for some kind of sensitive wartime project.

47:36Which makes me wonder, at one point, maybe he worked with secret government technology. Because of his geophysical services, you know, record and understanding of geovagnetism, And there's probably some overlap between that and UFO research. Oh, I'm sure. And what about Leo Gebauer, Silas Newton's colleague? They make out Leo Gebauer as a radio, used radio parts sales guy. What sort of expertise did he have? Radio? A pretty broad set of interests. Electromagnetism was one of them. And like Newton, Gebauer already had one hell of an FBI file, absolutely massive. and stretching back to years before Aztec.

48:19In 1943, the War Department is asking the FBI to clear him. So I think he worked on some kind of top-shelf project. In fact, as early as 1942, with at least one memo about him reaching J. Edgar Hoover himself. His daughter even told the Ramseys that agents used to follow her and her sister to school. That is a ridiculous amount of attention and manpower to spend on a guy that's just a hoaxer. And Gebauer's FBI file is still heavily redacted to this day. Why would you ever redact and censor FBI files on someone who is just a petty con man? It makes literally no sense. There is clearly something more to the story.

49:05And some reason that the government and J. Edgar Hoover's FBI wanted to paint Newton and Gebauer as frauds. The fraud case finally landed in 1953. The alleged victim was a Denver businessman named Herman Flader, who'd invested in Newton's oil ventures and in a gadget called the Doodlebug, a device that Newton claimed could detect oil and gas underground. Herman Flader from Denver had invested in the Doodlebug technology. They were arrested for taking stolen property across state line, a check from an investor. Sounds like they were targeted. Well, they went through seven judges, and seven judges said, are you kidding me?

49:49No, I'm not gonna hear this case. So then they asked the FBI, are you bringing the doodlebug that you confiscated to court? We wanna operate it and show the court how it operates. So they said yes, and they showed up with this horrible wooden box with Scully actually holding the real one. And the defense attorney said, That's, we've never even seen that before. It was made from old military radio parts. The judge was like, no, no, there's no evidence will be allowed to help you. It's going to help the FBI. We're going to prosecute Silas Newton and Gebauer. So it was a kangaroo court at best. But it doesn't seem like Flader came forward on his own.

50:35He might have been talked into it. Because it was Kahn that contacted Flader. Khan seems like the guy who's pushing J. Edgar Hoover basically to take them through this kangaroo court and talk about the Czechs crossing state lines, which is ridiculous. And then also he's pushing Flader to prosecute them on the duty ball. So J.P. Khan feels like the most important node of basically persecution when it comes to him. Have we uncovered any sort of intelligence ties when it comes to J.P. Khan? Well, he was in the Air Force. Okay, that's important. So what if Gabe Auer and Newton were right all along?

51:14What if they were actually set up? And what if the fraud case that took them down and buried Aztec along with them was actually part of a sophisticated disinformation campaign? But the point is, the reverberations of the smear campaign spread to anyone who touched the case. Researchers, writers, scientists, a millionaire tycoon. It was universally radioactive.

51:42The Aztec event was so radioactive, no one wanted to touch it, let alone investigate it. When I publicly said I was starting to explore the case, these were DMs I got from a supposedly experienced UFO researcher. Recovery at Heart Canyon. On or about this site, on March 25, 1948, a spacecraft of origins unknown crashed or landed on this mesa. Most historic sites get markers, but after several decades of Aztec being reduced to nothing more than folklore, it was clear no one was ever going to put one here. So in 2007, Suzanne and Scott fixed the record themselves by bolting a plaque to the mesa, signed and dated.

52:28I think the way the government went about Aztec, of really making sure people were discredited, really making sure anybody that went near it, they even went after Scully. It didn't work. They went after him. But I think it was possibly because this craft, by all reports, was intact. If the government really recovered an intact craft, the most valuable thing inside it probably wasn't the bodies. It was the technology that made it fly. So naturally, you'd call in the best scientists you have.

53:10George Kohler sold radio advertising for the Denver station KMYR, and at the time, he was living in Silas Newton's house. When students at the University of Denver wanted to look for someone to lecture about flying saucers, one of the science professors, Francis Broman, turned to Kohler to find them an expert. According to the Ramseys, Kohler initially lined up Dr. John Torrance Tate, who they ID as one of the scientists behind the mysterious Dr. G. But with the Air Force trying to hunt down the identities of the scientists connected to Aztec, Tate thought stepping onto a public stage was too dangerous.

53:50So the lecture fell to Kohler himself. But then he backed out, just for Silas Newton to finally pick up the baton. On March 8th, 1950, Newton took the stage as the mysterious Scientist X. His speech opened with a bombshell. Flying saucers were real, and someone had already landed on Earth. Within 500 miles of the city of Denver, there settled gently to Earth a round object which had already been identified as being a flying saucer. And if I may venture the observation, unquestionably they are interested in our atomic restraint. Newton didn't reveal the exact locations, but he left Aztec's fingerprints all over the story.

54:40A seamless craft measuring 99.99 feet in diameter and found with 16 charred crew members. This saucer was 99 and 99 hundredths feet in diameter. We have decided that there is a reason all the measurements of this ship broken down total nine. Sound familiar? If you read Frank Scully's book, it literally says the craft operates on the principle of nine. But the similarities don't stop there. In Newton's lecture, when covering how the flying saucers got here, he says they don't travel the way aircrafts move through the sky. Instead, they move along magnetic lines of force. To demonstrate how powerful these forces could be, Newton brought up Captain Thomas Mantell, the pilot who was killed in 1948 while chasing a UFO near Fort Knox.

55:41Newton says that the saucer disintegrated Mantell's plane by disrupting the magnetic forces holding it together. It didn't say it had been blown out of the air and then crashed. It said it disintegrated. Now we happen to know that that can be done magnetically. That ship and the others that are flying fly on magnetic lines of force. Now, these magnetic lines of force know no barrier. The eternally present, everything that exists on this planet, maintains its form and shape and its being by reason of magnetic lines of force. He refers to the Earth itself as a giant magnet, held in place by magnetic forces.

56:33This is literally true, and it's before we discovered the Van Allen Belt. The Earth is literally held together by a magnetosphere. In Newton's belief, instead of burning fuel, the saucers could lock onto those magnetic lines and ride them, almost the way a train rides rails, except the rails are invisible. The lecture lasted about an hour before Kohler escorted Newton out, saying he had a plane to catch. But Newton wasn't the only one moving fast. Two hours after the lecture ended, Air Force investigators had shown up and were questioning students for clues about Scientist X's identity. They were so desperate that when they heard that Scientist X had a plane to catch, they even pulled the passenger manifests for commercial flights leaving Denver.

57:19It never dawned on them that Scientist X was Newton, and that Newton was living right there in the city, under the same roof as Kohler. And before long, two Office of Special Investigation agents, Hansen and Unger, showed up at his radio station. Today's episode is brought to you by Quo, spelled Q-U-O, the business communication system built so you never miss a call. Your entire team can handle calls and texts from one shared number, so no more missed messages or dropped conversations. Everyone sees the full thread, replies are faster, and customers actually feel taken care of. It's the number one rated business phone system on G2, which is the premier place where you review these sort of workspace applications.

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58:54And the way it came out wasn't exactly user-friendly. It's a haystack, and who knows how many real needles are sitting in there. So here's what I'd love to build. Every release pulled apart and rebuilt as one timeline you could actually search. A kernel turns up in 1978 and again in 2004, and one click fills in everything around him. In a clean interface that tells you the moment a new batch drops, what's actually new, and what was quietly declassified 20 years ago. That is what Perplexity Computer is built for. You hand computer the whole project, and it goes and does it. It opens the files, reads them, pulls out the names and dates, writes the entries, builds the site, and it keeps going in the background for as long as the job takes.

59:42For a limited time only, our listeners can try Perplexity Computer for free. Head to pplx.ai slash jesse. That's pplx.ai slash jesse to try computer today. Most AI tools are simply still answering questions, while Perplexity Computer is completing full projects. Two hours after the lecture ended, Air Force investigators had shown up and were questioning students for clues about Scientist X's identity. They were so desperate that when they heard that Scientist X had a plane to catch, They even pulled the passenger manifests for commercial flights leaving Denver. It never dawned on them that Scientist X was Newton, and that Newton was living right there in the city, under the same roof as Kohler.

1:00:34And before long, two Office of Special Investigation agents, Hansen and Unger, showed up at his radio station. And want to have the whole breakdown of who told you about this story, who else was at the university. What do you know about it? Who told you? And what Kohler did as they were going into the recording room, he told the technician, record this. Wow. The agents weren't just interested in Kohler's thoughts on flying saucers. They wanted his sources. Who were they? What were these strange gadgets he supposedly knew all about? And most importantly, did any of his sources have connections to the government?

1:01:16it. Kohler refused to give them a single name. The information, it was told to me as a story. However, the names where I got it from was entrusted to me as a confidence. And I have no desire to jeopardize that confidence in any way, nor will I. Keep in mind, Kohler knows it's being taped. So you can tell he's trying to bait him a little bit. In fact, he turned the questioning back on the agents, pressing them on why the government wouldn't release what it knew about UFOs. I believe that the government is the only one that should have any answers to this story. And I believe the government is making a huge mistake in not giving the true facts about the goddamn thing as they know it.

1:02:00Whether Kohler was intentionally baiting the agents or not, the Air Force seems weirdly territorial over a phenomenon that wasn't supposed to exist. And they clearly weren't dismissing Scientist X's lecture out of hand. Which brings us back to the scientists who were first in line to give that famous Denver lecture before Newton took the stage. One of the Dr. G's, Dr. John Torrance Tate. Jonathan Torrance Tate was an amazing guy. I don't know why, over the years, his name kept popping up in Aztec. And I don't mean books, I mean just documents. And then when we were talking to Texas Instruments, they brought him up.

1:02:42Well, have you looked into Jonathan Torrance Tate? Who's he? Tate was the kind of top-tier mind whose background in physics, magnetism, and secret military research made him just the kind of man the government would trust with a flying saucer. Long story short, we flew to Minneapolis and got a meeting at the University of Minnesota in their archives. And they were very kind, very helpful. And they have all, they have archived all his records. And there were boxes that were sealed around 1950, right at the time of his death. He died right... No one else ever looked at him. No one ever looked at him, ever.

1:03:21So then it shows in the records that he was in the Southwest about the time of Aztec. In March of 48, yeah. And he comes back, and this is where he calls this press conference. It wasn't press. It was really like a science. It was always the science came and celebrated it. And he said, it has changed my life. And in that, he talked about technology. I saw on this trip, we will never have to worry about energy. That's already been figured out. We'll never have to worry about food. Food production will not be threatened. Pollution can be solved. Health problems can be solved. He was going down this wish list that any scientist would love to be able to say.

1:04:12And he says, we have this technology now. And he worked closely with Vannevar Bush. Well, he worked for him. Worked for him. and Vannevar Bush ran all of, you know, American federally funded science efforts and research at the highest level. And to that, exactly in that nature, through these records, what we consistently saw was that Dr. Tate was a very modest man. He didn't want any attention given to himself. And... What we saw was that if you watched his pattern of life all the way, he had focused on the war effort, whether it was, you know, whatever, war effort. After that day, that was no longer.

1:05:00He was much more philanthropic and just really focused on human beings. And that was a very powerful, powerful experience for us to see that mark change, bam, right after that trip. That's amazing. Something important happened on that trip. Something important happened on that trip? Completely paradigm-shifting, life-changing for this man. And he thought it merited at least that he shared that with all the colleagues, that it was that important. That's right. So the Ramseys believed that Tate would be the perfect head scientist behind Scully's mysterious Dr. G. Unfortunately, Tate died on May 27, 1950, months before Scully's book hit bookstores.

1:05:40But right after the book was released, Scully gave a radio interview where he was asked about Dr. G directly. Scully's being interviewed about Dr. G. He said, at what point do you think we could get Dr. G on the radio? And we'll learn more about it. And Scully says, oh, that won't be possible. What was the point? He's no longer available. That was right after Tate died. Interesting. Chicago radio station. After Tate dies, they probably injected another scientist because we've come up with nine. And what we did was we took everything Frank Scully said in the book about these amazing scientists, and with the help of Texas Instruments, their historical guy, we went through, and that's when we found Vandiver Bush's group in World War II, and we went down each division, and we went, Oh, my God, that's one of Scully's guys.

1:06:39That's one of Scully's guys. So here's who the Ramseys believe made up the nine-man scientific brain trust, the collective identity of Dr. G. Cecil Howard Green, Patrick E. Haggerty, Richard C. Tolman, John Eric Johnson, J. Clarence Karcher, Eugene McDermott, Henry Bates Peacock, Otto Herman Arnold Schmidt, and of course, John Torrance Tate. There's also a tenth possible name, Carl August Hyland. If any of you knows any of these people's descendants, please reach out to this email, usa.alchemy at gmail.com. These were among the best scientists and engineers connected to wartime research in geophysics, magnetics, electronics, radar, and submarine detection.

1:07:31And many of them were connected directly through the Office of Scientific Research and Development, or the OSRD. This was nuclear godfather Vannevar Bush's wartime science network. If you needed research done in secret in the 1940s, these were the guys you called. And six of the nine Dr. G scientists were directly connected to the founding of Texas Instruments. Later known for its calculators, Texas Instruments did some of the most advanced research and development in its day. You're saying some of that tech might have like leaked eventually into Texas Instruments, do you think? I wouldn't ever oppose that idea.

1:08:10Yeah. Yeah. Let's just speculate for a second and say a UFO crashed over here and it was brought to Wright-Patterson. The United States government looked at it and said, wow, there's some really cool technology on this. I would think in a very short time, get that thing the hell out of the government's hands. The government would want it out of their hands. Yeah. And because if it's in the government hands, it's subject to a bunch of legal grabbings. Congressional moves, Senate moves, whatever. If it's in private hands, I mean, hell, you know, somebody like GE or Lockheed, their corporate attorneys could keep that lawsuit going until we all retire and die.

1:08:51So let's say you find something that doesn't fit the periodic table or the laws of physics or basic human sanity. The basic playbook is, if it's weird, hide it. Once it's handed over to a private company, it can essentially disappear. This idea of anomalous tech retrieval and transfer to private corporations was spearheaded by Philip J. Corso. The number one was the integrated circuit. Number two of importance was laser, because I had some laser instruments also. Then fiber optics came out of this. The imaging devices, or night viewing devices, came from this. some of the work we did in electromagnetism and the ICBMs, and it came from this.

1:09:37If any of this is true, and Dr. G's scientists actually did work directly for Vannevar Bush, it gives Vannevar Bush's essay, The Endless Frontier, a whole new meaning. Essentially, instead of all technology working forwards, a lot of it is working backwards. Backwards from an end state of interstellar electromagnetic-based travel. And these extremely advanced technologies can beget derivative technologies that just look kind of alien, but they're just kind of functional in prosaic use cases. A candidate for this would be fiber optics. But before any exotic technology is handed over to a private corporation, someone still has to secure the UFO crash site, calm the witnesses, and scoop up whatever worm-holed its way here or fell from the sky.

1:10:25We now know due to going through documents firsthand with the Ramseys ourselves, that the Air Force had all sorts of names for UFOs at the time, and they hid their crash retrieval programs in very cheeky ways. The 4602, in their monthly report, had a UFOB section in it where they talked about how many UFOs were seen or whatever reported, but that was all internally. And as you and I were kind of chuckling about, you know, most months they could identify 90%. Yeah. We don't want to know about those. Give us the other 10%, you know. Here we have the squadron history of the 4602 Division of the Air Intelligence Service Squadron.

1:11:12Anything of note in this document? I mean, they mention how their whole role is to sort of suppress this in the public. It says here, reassuring this public mind that no tangible evidence existed to support the fears. of an invasion from outer space, or that radical technological advances and developments by the enemy do not exist, was imperative. So the real job of 4602D wasn't exactly UFO hunting. Their mission was to manage public perception, keep the headlines boring, and convince everyone that what they definitely saw, they definitely didn't. Because nothing calms the public like, there's nothing to see here.

1:11:50Some people might say, you guys have a mischaracterization of this organization, or this unit, but a testament to how accurately you guys have documented or gathered documents and understand the 4602D and the 1006th is that at one of your symposiums, you ran into a group of well-cut guys that you didn't know where they came from. And it turns out that they were actually part of the modern 4602D, and they were sent to you by their command to go learn about the 4602D. Yeah, that was in Denver. Yeah. They came only for that speech. Wow. Yeah. We similarly had something like that happen in Baltimore, too.

1:12:28With NSA. And they said we were sent by our COs to attend your lecture based on how you do research. They wanted to know what we knew about cryptology and how deep our research went. Wow. I felt honored. Yeah. So whatever the 4602D morphed into, they never really stopped paying attention. And as Scott mentioned, this group wasn't around when Aztec happened in 1948. But according to another one of Scott Ramsey's sources, the craft at Aztec was first taken to Los Alamos. But then it was taken to Wright Airfield, the epicenter of UFO lore, what became Wright-Patterson Air Force Base. You guys have uncovered separate evidence that the Aztec crash specifically made its way to Wright Airfield.

1:13:20Yes, we interviewed a gentleman who worked for an instrumentation company, for lack of a better word, and that was owned by Eastman Kodak. They sent him, it said it would be about a four-year deal, down to Dayton, Ohio. He wasn't given a lot of detail. We've qualified him and his family, so we know where they lived, we know where they worked, we know about them personally. That's what sometimes takes our time to just qualify those people so it isn't just someone randomly saying something. Right. He had read our second book and called Suzanne as I was en route to Savannah, Georgia on business. Suzanne called me and said, I hope it's okay.

1:14:00I told him to call you. It's a pretty amazing story. And he called me, and the only thing I had to take notes on was a Burger King bag, I think it is. He said, I'm pretty sure this is the Aztec craft I worked on. I read your book, heard you on a couple of TV things. His deal at Wright Patton was they were testing, trying to power up the craft. Wouldn't go into a lot of detail on that, but he told me the instruments they were working with and that he was proud to have designed and created the second model and even wrote the operator's manual, which was true. He gave me some names that were pretty impressive that worked on the craft.

1:14:47One was an ex-Nazi Lippish, which was known for his work on wingless aircraft. Did he say anything about the craft? Oh, yeah, a lot about it. It was about the right dimensions, 100 feet, give or take. A lenticular cross-section, which Aztec was, as you know. A dome top, a small dome bottom. He said, I can't remember exactly, but you know, 18 feet thick at the widest would probably be accurate. Some of the tests, when they were trying to power it up, it would become translucent. He said you could barely see the shapes of the people in the craft. Could they fly it at all? No, no. And would they use high voltage binding chainets?

1:15:31Yes, the whole thing was very high voltage. Interesting. The craft going translucent was again something later noted by Bob Lazar. And you saw translucent, like, almost Korean-looking symbols? Is that right? Yeah, I saw the wall become translucent. Uh-huh. And at some point saw some kind of what I would call symbols. As they would get there and be going down in it, there was a rather young nurse, which they got to know her pretty good and got more story about it. That's how they found out it came from Aztec. She claimed it came from Aztec. And the urinary allowed in the craft, I forget what it was, 15 or 20 minutes?

1:16:17No more. And he said that she told him at the, where they recovered the craft, scientists going into it, if they were in there any longer, would come out sick.

1:16:31So there is a theory that since the craft was wobbling as it headed this direction and before it hit the Archlella Ranch, and after that, that the vehicle might have gone into an autopilot. But whether this crash was intentional or not, the craft's final approach gave us another clue to what might have happened on board. There were new developments in radar at the time that might have disrupted the flight path of a UFO. Well, we dug into that. In 1999, we came out looking for radar bases. Looked every high peak in this area all the way over towards Santa Fe. We found the one at El Vado. And we hiked up there in about two feet of snow, and there it was.

1:17:22Just like they left it in 1957. We didn't know that at the time, but when I went down to Maxwell, they showed them the pictures, and they said, boy, it looks like a radar base, but we didn't really have one in that area at the time. Well, of course the Air Force couldn't find it because it was under the Atomic Energy Commission. Because they'd built it to protect Los Alamos. Even the most advanced technology might be vulnerable to something ordinary it wasn't designed to encounter. For example, let's say you travel back to 1848 with your 21st century starter pack. Your iPhone, your laptop, maybe a smartwatch.

1:17:57At this point, you're functionally a wizard carrying 178 years of magic beyond anything else on Earth. And then a wagon rolls over your laptop. Someone fires a musket ball right at your phone. Both get destroyed immediately. Not because their technology was more advanced, but because a MacBook wasn't designed to survive that kind of encounter. So you go back even further, and a caveman chucks your metaglasses in a puddle. And that's it. The sum total of Silicon Valley technology gone, thanks to a guy who hasn't even invented the wheel yet. Now flip this to 1948 in New Mexico. New high-powered radar systems are sweeping the skies around some of the most sensitive military and nuclear sites on Earth.

1:18:42Pulsing and broadcasting microwave energy we didn't fully understand yet. So what if something centuries ahead of us flies directly through that? Could an unfamiliar form of energy interfere with a craft that wasn't expecting to fly through it, even if that craft was far more advanced than anything we could build at the time? Radar technology wasn't originally designed to hurt anything, the same way a wagon wasn't designed to hurt a laptop. But sometimes, worlds collide. And remember, advanced doesn't mean invincible. And was this a special type of radar? It was. They were testing it for the Navy.

1:19:20It was called Lash Up. Lash Up later became adopted by the Air Force as well. But these particular ones had a basically over-the-horizon view. So they'd be perfect for battleships, aircraft carriers, whatever. they could look much further than a conventional radar. So they were higher powered than... Very high powered. When Scott dug into it, he found out the site was originally built in 1946, before being moved in 1950. He also found two other bases close by, Moriarty and Continental, although those weren't active until around 1950 or 51. By then, all three had become part of a system called Lash Up.

1:20:02Lash-Up was a state-of-the-art early-morning air defense network created from several types of World War II radar technology. Our best electronics engineers with unlimited resources and only one objective, to develop radar superior to yours. The radar used rotating antennas to sweep the sky with pulses of invisible microwave energy. It would then measure the direction and distance of an aircraft by listening out for the tiny fraction of each pulse reflected back. Lash-up wasn't fully set up when Aztec happened. So if Scott's theory is right that an earlier radar base was already operating in March of 1948, could it have played a role in Aztec?

1:20:45Do we know what Lash-up sort of updated on technically vis-a-vis prior radar systems? Well, the English, the British, and the Americans at the end of World War II were both working together but yet competing. And they were basically microwave, the early ones. That's a lot of the talk that we hear also about what's been happening. You know, if you look at Jake Barber, the psionics and all of that, and, you know, the Northrop Grumman connection, they have in their possession a lot of those microwave cannons. A lot of those would seem to be these large vehicles with these sort of directional cannons on the back that, you know, purportedly, once these crafts are in a vicinity, are able to sort of take them down.

1:21:38HPMs, which are high-powered microwave weapons, are deployed, and they have an effect where they can disrupt the flight pattern of the object. And when it is an object, sometimes it's not. And it can result in that aircraft being forcibly brought down. Could something similar have happened with radar at Aztec, even if it was unintentional? It's not like the radar's microwave pulses could physically shove a craft off course. But if the craft depended on sensitive electromagnetic controls or navigation sensors, it's very possible that a burst of microwave energy could have interfered and overwhelmed the craft's systems.

1:22:18It's probably no coincidence, then, that the most popular document on the FBI's website is the notorious Hoddle Memo. Written in 1950, the same year as Scully's book, the document discusses recovered flying saucers in New Mexico that were specifically brought down due to new high-powered radar installations in the area messing with the craft's flight mechanisms. If they were doing that 80 years ago, I mean, that tech's probably come a long way today. You know, if they were even accidentally doing it before, they've probably perfected it now. Probably, yeah. The guys that were involved in Manhattan were overlaying the same ecosystem of secrecy in some of the same ways to protect stuff that they were protecting our nuclear secrets.

1:23:05If you read the definition of special nuclear material in the Public Atomic Energy Act of 1954, it basically states any material that releases any kind of atomic energy. That would be retrieved crash material. So it's kind of a sneaky way. No, it is. If you actually read the Atomic Energy Act, if something is not a nuke, but it has radiological energy coming off it, you know, alpha, beta decay, whatever. Same secrecy. Same secrecy. David Grush is noting one of the most clear and longstanding trends in UFO world, that UFO secrecy is bound up in atomic research. Just like Silas Newton said in his speech, whoever these beings are, they seem extremely interested in our atomic programs.

1:23:53Unquestionably, they are interested in our atomic research. So American nuclear godfather Vannevar Bush being involved in Aztec would make complete sense. Even his direct report, Robert Sarbacher, who worked closely with him, is on record in letters to Bill Steinman saying that Vannevar Bush was directly involved in UFO research. Sarbacher is also on record with Canadian scientist Wilbert Smith saying that he believes Frank Scully's book about the Aztec crash is substantially correct. I would probably ask Sarbacher, Oppenheimer, and be like, what was your thought process in the 40s and 50s, you know, scrolling this away?

1:24:41So if a craft really did plow into the mesa, who got the call? One clue came from a researcher who put Aztec back on the map in 1986. His book, UFO Crash at Aztec, kicked the whole thing back to life. It was the best map of the UFO legacy program to date, and he never gets enough credit. The great Bill Steinman. Bill Steinman is like the most underappreciated UFO researcher maybe of all time. He wrote a 600-page book that's extremely detailed where he outs, you know, this committee, which I think maybe in its counterintelligence moniker is named the Majestic 12, but there was probably some reality to this.

1:25:23But he even talks to, you know, he tries to FOIA the Interplanetary Phenomenon Unit with this organization that definitely existed, because this was verified by the recipients of this FOIA request in the federal government from 1947 to 1950. The fact that we had an organization called an Interplanetary Phenomenon Unit, we know due to Bill Steinman and his work. And then at the end of his life, Robert Sarbacher, who's clearly part of the UFO story, was running the Washington National Labs, was an atomic energy expert. Very, very high up. Very high up. Sarbacher writes to him saying that the rumors around UFOs are true.

1:26:03And that, you know, we did have a program, Vannevar Bush, Oppenheimer, we're all involved. And so all of this is outed in this book. And so, yeah, I hope he's resting in paradise and listening to this and, you know, maybe feel somewhat vindicated. Well, he had a job with Lockheed. Probably keep it at that. And quality engineer, quality assurance. And he was warned that you don't, that they didn't really like employees writing books on flying saucers. A couple of days after the book came out, he got canned. He got fired. He got fired. And never, ever was able to get a job in aerospace or aviation again.

1:26:43Top brass from Lockheed Martin, the ones who sat him down. Lockheed back then. Martin hadn't come into the picture yet. Or Lockheed. And they were asking what he was doing out there already, as if they'd have been tracking where he was going. Yeah, they asked him, where are you taking trips to on weekends? Well, he's coming out here. I think it was, well, what are you doing in Aztec? Well, I'm researching something that happened in 1948. and it came out about the UFO crash, and he said, we really don't like it. We make a lot of money on government contracts. We don't need you in there to start it up.

1:27:17Bill claimed that a couple times at the crash site, as he was leaving, he was followed by helicopters, military helicopters. And that actually happened to us once when we were putting the plaque in. Really? Yeah. I think it was more of a what are these guys up to thing, not really a threat. He died in January a couple years ago, massive heart attack. Sheila was in the kitchen. She was getting ready to prepare food. And Bill was up in the upstairs bathroom, and she heard a thud. And Suzanne and I had been to their house. They were near Goodyear, Arizona. And it was a retirement development. And as soon as you pull in, there's the firehouse and the paramedics, and you go up, and there's Bill's house.

1:28:04So, I mean, you know. He was right there. The paramedics said they pronounced him dead at the scene. Do you think there was any sort of foul play involved? That's so hard to say. It is. You know, I started this, I was young. You know, everybody's aging out. It's hard to say. He was, you know, a mature age mayor. You know, there would be nothing from my standpoint that would lead me to believe that that was. But it's, once again, a coincidence that seems untimely. You know, that's all we're going to do. They were in the process of moving. Right. And I don't want to say where for some obvious reasons.

1:28:45And Bill had been giving us documents that never made it in his book. And Bill and I were really social. I mean, he was a good friend. He went from kind of a grumpy old guy when I met him. What do you have so far? I got this, this, and this. Call me back when you got more. He was a good guy. Very, very talented. Very talented. Very smart. And then years later, I called, and we were doing the first book. And I mentioned that in our new book coming out. I said, what do you have so far? I said, well, no smoking gun. He said, you're never going to find the damn gun. What do you got in the way of bullets?

1:29:27I said, well, here's some new things we found. He goes, keep digging, keep digging. Investigating Aztec cost Steinman decades of ridicule and his own aerospace career. It may have even cost him his life. And almost 20 years later, another researcher picked up the mystery and followed it straight back to Scully's widow, Alice Scully. One of the more recent books to come out about the Aztec crash was Chris Evans. And he was this UFO researcher who wrote a book called Alien Conspiracy. Right. And he had met with Alice Scully, right? Frank Scully's. Numerous times, yeah. Numerous times, Frank Scully's wife.

1:30:06Mm-hmm. And she had said some remarkable things, right, about. She told him that there were definitely photos of the Aztec crash still in existence. Didn't tell him who, what, when, and where. Yep. There were two sets of photos, if you go back to the original Frank Scully story. One, the government took, and they didn't last long. They were almost like a Polaroid film. It mattered weeks they were back to being blank. And then two circumstances. Well, here, Alice talking about there are still photos. Chris said, when will they surface? She said, not in my lifetime. So I don't know if she had them or knew who had them.

1:30:47Chris Evans meets with Alice Scully, and becomes aware that there's real documentation around the Aztec crash. she wants to urgently meet with you guys, and then what happens next? His only concern was the fact, he said, I smoke. And I said, okay, you're going to be in the guest bedroom upstairs. Just kind of open a window or smoke outside. I mean, it was a nice time of year. And he said, well, I just don't want to be smoking around non-smokers. I had to confess that I was also back then a smoker. and I think that made him feel better. But he died the day that he was coming to see Susanna. And how did he die?

1:31:34According to the West Virginia Highway Patrol report, he jumped off a bridge. Did he seem at all depressed or suicidal to you? He was joking with me and we were laughing what we were going to do and, you know, talking, And, you know, I love to cook, so what can I cook? And all those things. It was just a playful, fun conversation. And when we got the news, it was like somebody punched us. Did his family suspect any foul play? No. There was one witness, right, that a truck driver ended up being kind of shaky? Well, the West Virginia Highway Patrol did a lousy job of taking the information where the information they were getting was bogus to begin with.

1:32:26We were never able to find the driver. The witness? The witness, the truck driver that said he witnessed Chris pulling up, stopping, jumping out of the car and jumping over the guardrail or handrail of the bridge. ironically his nephew Chris was the first police officer at the scene they dispatched said we have a jumper and underneath the bridge there is the Kanawa River and then there's a farmer that planted at that time corn right up to the river and apparently Chris wasn't trying to jump in the river because he ended up the cornfield or he wasn't He didn't jump. Maybe he was thrown. Intrigued by Chris Evans' life and work, I wanted to learn more about him.

1:33:16So I decided to buy his book, Alien Conspiracy. I bought it off of a random used book website online. When it got delivered, I opened it up and I started reading. And lo and behold, on the first page, it was signed by Chris Evans. Dated December 1st, 2004. This was just a year before he tragically passed away.

1:33:44I want to show you guys a couple of things, and maybe we ought to move it up because we could get two to four inches here. The high strangeness in Aztec goes well beyond the 1948 crash. As soon as we got to the crash site, we had a visitor, a friend who seemed to know all about us. And this was when Chris Ramsey and I had a much smaller following, A friend with Air Force connections and a man who happened to be camping out by the Aztec crash site, one of the most obscure and undesired camping grounds in America. He was just passing through. I just turned around and there's a light like way out in the distance and it's moving below the ridgeline, below the top of the mesa, and it's just moving slowly across the horizon.

1:34:28And I'm like, man, that thing's really smooth. It's either a chopper or a really slow plane. And then my buddy comes walking up, and he's like, what are you doing? I said, I'm getting some wood for the fire. And he looks over, he's like, what's that? I think it's a plane. He goes, that's not a plane. I said, look, there's five more people here, and I don't want to jade anybody's vision of what they see. So don't say anything. In fact, let's not say anything until it does something strange, and then just point it out. Don't say anything. Right after we said it, it was a 90-degree turn. And, you know, and we're walking back down to the rest of the group.

1:35:09And it was instantly over us. Whoa. Yeah. And we're lit up in this greenish light. Right? Not, I didn't feel afraid. One of the girls freaked. What do they want from us? She starts screaming. Her boyfriend's like, it's a helicopter. And we're talking like this. As we're all standing there, I said, okay, well, let's just all get back to the fire. And then that's it. Then I woke up in the morning. So I don't know if I missed time or... That sounds like missing time. Yeah. I mean, I don't remember laying down and going to sleep or anything else. I just woke up in the morning. And then I walked up to the ridge where the truck was parked.

1:35:46And the girl with her boyfriend who said it's a helicopter were sitting there. And this is no joke. They're sitting there on a rock. And I'm talking to them. And I said, what do you guys think about last night? What do you think about what happened? And they didn't want to talk about it. They're like, nah. He's like, it's just a helicopter. And about 15 minutes later, three Apache attack helicopters come flying on the deck. Dude, I'm looking directly out from the ridgeline at their faces and their choppers. You can see all the rivets. You can see their faces. Not, you know, because they're covered.

1:36:20You can't see everything, but you see everything. And they went roaring by in the same flight path. Whoa. And I said, that's what we would have heard. We wouldn't have been able to talk. I also spoke to an Aztec local who has seen strange lights starting above the San Juan coal mine right by where he worked. And he saw something unbelievable at the crash site itself. With the crash site here, it was back in 1999. My grandfather, they're building a house out in Heart Canyon. And building the house, and it's up on top of the hill there in Heart Canyon. And down below the road that goes to Heart Canyon, we see a convoy of black SUVs.

1:36:59like kind of like the movies, black SUVs, no markings, kind of weird. They're driving out there. Then there's two helicopters flying by, like cargo type helicopters. Well, later in the day, they come back. The vehicle's driving fast, helicopters come back, but they have a container. And at that time, my grandpa, he's all, he's this wild guy. He's like, oh man, something's not right. We gotta go check it out. So we drive out, try to find something, try to find tracks where possibly they gone. Well, we came across, I'd say about a mile or two from where right now the crash site where they say it is from that spot um we found a came across the hole and it was about 30 feet deep 30 feet in diameter kind of like a circular hole oh my god nothing was there but i mean seeing the helicopter go out there empty come back with the container seeing that hole next to this crash site i'm putting two and two together they found something and nobody knows what it is and since then um i never heard anything never saw anything in paper Have you gone back to see the hole?

1:37:58I've gone back. Is the hole still there? There's nothing there. Really? And it's just, it's a trip. It's wild. So you think they kind of covered up the hole, basically? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. And that local you just heard, Brett Lanier, is now the 60th mayor of Aztec.

1:38:18While on the Archuleta Ranch, we heard about cattle mutilations occurring in the area. So no blood. And what about the organs and the eyes and the ears? Later on, I never even thought about checking for a tongue. The ears and eyes were still intact. But the other just looked like a surgeon had taken it off, but no blood. Just real clean, straight cuts. Was your first instinct that a human had done it or that something else? That's something else that done it. And I was coming from Cuba to, and I was driving home. There was other people on the road, but there was this, it looked like a cigar. And I was like, oh my gosh, there's a plane landing.

1:39:04And it was a big plane. It looked like one of those transport planes from the army. I was like, oh my God, it's going to crash. It's going to crash right there. And so I hurried up and I sped around Turtle Mountain and I got up on top. And you're thinking, okay, well, this plane's going to crash, and there's going to be a fire, there's going to be smoke, there's going to be dust, there's going to be something. Nothing. Drove home really quickly, and I called my mom. I was like, Mom, I was like, I saw this plane, like this huge plane crash over by Turtle Mountain, but I didn't see anything. She was like, I don't know.

1:39:46I said, do I call the police? What do I do? And she was like, I don't know. The next day, my mom calls. And she said, Krista, what did that plane look like that you saw? And I said, well, I told you. She said, well, they tracked a UFO. There was a, I think it was United Airlines pilot who was like, and then they sent it all over the internet because it was all over the internet the next day. I can still remember, I remember exactly where I was at on that road when I saw it. And I know exactly what size it was. And it was just, it was going so slow that I was like, well, it's going to crash. It's going to go down.

1:40:32It was finally time to test that polished marble found buried at the crash site. First, the Ramseys tested the object on their own with x-ray fluorescence performed by a jeweler. And they got a very anomalous result. In fact, they got back an extremely high percentage of iridium, close to 40%, which if right, would basically mean this object had to have come from outer space. So more testing was definitely warranted. I decided to hit up my friend Matthew Zadakis. Zadakis' lab does cutting-edge materials research, and he is the perfect combination of hard-headed and open-minded. Bottom line is we're in it to receive the truth.

1:41:17That's the bottom line. So really hoping it's this or hoping it's that doesn't really do any good, and it doesn't really matter anyway. Okay. I'm getting about

1:41:3620.5. It looked like 0.6, but I think that was from rolling around. So we'll call that 20.5 grams. Now that we have the number of grams, and we have the volume, now we can calculate the density. And then when we have the density, we can compare that to the materials that it's supposed to be made out of, including going back to the claim of iridium, which is very, very dense. So I can already tell this is going to be nowhere near dense enough for a heavy metal like iridium. But what we can do is at least check. So what we're doing now is called neutron activation analysis. And it is typically done at nuclear reactors.

1:42:20So we've got tungsten blocks holding it in place. and we just have it gently in between our two Californium sources. And so what's going to happen is it's only going to be made very mildly, gently, slightly radioactive. And then we can, by reading off the radiation that comes off of the sample tomorrow, is what we will find is whether the isotopic ratios match that of planet Earth or not. Get that covered up. Now this would be more of a truth. This is our first go. All right.

1:43:05So our main one is showing up here, which is telling me it's probably calcium. Calcium, the secondary peak on calcium also matches up. Okay. So we're seeing calcium in it. No calcium in the original. Iodine doesn't exactly go the way I want it to. Okay. But titanium does. Okay. Titanium is on the list. Titanium, I think, was on the list. Yeah. All right. Let's see what these other ones are. Let's do the lighter elements get a little bit tougher. Mm-hmm. You're seeing gold come up. 3.4 % for gold. Mm-hmm. That one got about five. We're in maybe a different spot. Mm-hmm. Got some zinc. It got iron.

1:43:46again with the umberbatium you can't trust those because the gun uses those in order to go 17 % titanium which is dead on what they got and we've got lead but we have no iridium can you scroll down though? oh there is others but it gets less and less and less for the prestigious no platinum would be the lowest so even this one still this one's set up for precious metals I'm not sure exactly what settings the original machine had when we were looking for that. No, but no iridium even in the potential hallucinatory mode where it could find it. Yeah. Well, back to the drawing. I think that's that.

1:44:29Unfortunately, I mean, we can still do isotopes, but it's probably not looking good at the moment. If it was 37 % iridium, you should be able to factor that in and find out what its weight should be. Exactly. It should be heavier. Sorry, but numbers don't lie. We're here to find out the exact thing. Over the years, we've had people try and, well, they would jump to conclusions or they would try and encourage us to sensationalize parts of the Aztec story. And Scott and I had never felt that that's the way to do proper research. In fact, we just assume downplay something rather than prop it up. And the beauty of the Aztec story is, and having done all these years of research, is that it is such a fantastic story.

1:45:23It is a comprehensive story. It's so powerful and a really important part of history. And there's really no reason to add anything to it. It just, in its purity, is a powerful story. For more than 70 years, almost everyone looked at the fraud charges. They looked at the word hoax sitting on a Wikipedia page like a name tag. And while everyone watched that, no one bothered to look at the actual mesa. Or call the witnesses. Or go out to Hart Canyon and see the crash site for themselves. The whole case just disappeared right out of America's hands. The only skeptic that has ever been here was Carl Flock.

1:46:07And that's because I drove him out here and walked him around, and he lived two hours away. But I might say this. He was against Aztec for years before he ever—you dragged him here. Yeah. And we had him come up and talk at the library, because back then, when we had the Aztec Symposium, and we always tried to have the pro and the con. And we became good friends. I don't want to paint him in bad light. I said to him on the way out to our canyon road, he said, my God, how far is it to the crash site? I said, what do you mean? You don't know where it is? No. I said, Carl, how can you, it would be like being a detective trying to solve a murder while you're sitting in New York at the police station and the murder was in L.A.

1:46:53I mean, how do you do that? This is where the story truly gets crazy. While making this documentary, we got in contact with a very valuable source. This person said that a high-ranking congressman he was in touch with was actively investigating the Aztec case. He also said that that congressman's office was broken into by none other than Carl Flock. Remember, this is the same Carl Flock that provided all of the public debunking on Aztec. He's basically the entire reason the Wikipedia page still says this is a hoax. And this is the same Carl Flock who was a self-confessed former CIA agent. The congressman apparently knew it was Carl because the office's security camera caught footage of him.

1:47:43And what was the one thing Carl Flock took from the office? Scott Ramsey's FedEx package that involved evidence surrounding the Aztec case. evidence he had just sent to the congressman. Now, I don't have a smoking gun here, and I'm ultimately speculating, but if this is true, and I'm pretty sure it is, it is so, so damning. Naturally, we discussed all of this with the Ramseys. So the guy, like, the kind of main piece of real estate online for the Aztec crash is this YouTube documentary, and it's you going back on kind of the pro, you know. Yeah, with Carl. And then Carl Vlock saying that this is all a hoax, but kind of repeating kind of the party line in this sort of very, you know, turned off sort of way.

1:48:31And that's the guy everybody looks to as the expert about why this is a hoax. And he was caught breaking into a government official's office. And he's a former CIA agent, which we know. Yeah. Which he never denies. So maybe Aztec was a hoax, just not the one we were told. Maybe the real sleight of hand was convincing everyone that there was nothing here worth looking at. And it worked so well that Aztec is the rare case that gets called a hoax by both sides. If Aztec could be successfully buried under the word hoax, what other stories have we stopped investigating because the same label was attached to them?

1:49:11because of manufactured stigma. That doesn't mean every weird claim is true. Some stories really are hoaxes, but that's what makes an incredibly effective strategy. It doesn't take much to poison the well. You don't have to disprove every witness or erase every fingerprint if you can make the story embarrassing enough that no serious person wants to be caught looking. Which brings me to Scott and Suzanne. Over half a million dollars of their own money on a case that offered them nothing but ridicule. And they spent it trying to give a handful of people their names back. A geophysicist, a developer, a writer who kept his word until the day he died.

1:49:51People who got flattened by this and never got to answer for themselves. I want to give huge props to my amazing cast and crew. Not only did Chris Ramsey from Area 52 join as a fellow researcher, but he was a massive help with production as a field director and overall troop leader. And this story would never have made it to my channel if it wasn't for JP, whose research and outreach to the Ramses was instrumental in making this happen. Lastly, I want to thank DP, Arthur Douglas, and of course the Ramses and the people of Aztec. This was one of the most fun weeks of my life, and this video wouldn't have been possible without their time, energy, and hard work.

1:50:31Thank you so much, E. That was a blast. Please go buy the Ramses' newest book. It came to Earth at Aztec, New Mexico, revealed, the recovery of a UFO. I'm linking it in the description. This is their third and final book on the Aztec case, in their most comprehensive account. They've incorporated more than 30 years of research and previously unreleased witnesses, documents, and physical evidence. A lot of things that we didn't have time to cover in this documentary. Now you tell me whether one word on a Wikipedia page still belongs there.

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