Air Force Officer: “A UFO Shut Down 10 Nukes in Seconds...” (ft. Bob Salas)

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31:41Right now, American Alchemy listeners can save 30 % on their first order. Just head to cornbreadhemp.com slash jesse and use code jesse at checkout. Again, that's cornbreadhemp.com slash Jesse, code Jesse. Cornbread hemp, this is the good life. Yeah, there were many witnesses. In fact, I mentioned the name of Ray Fowler. Ray Fowler was a manager working under Sylvania Corporation. Sylvania had the contract for electrical systems at Malmstrom. And he had people working there, contractors working for him, who reported to him that they had seen these objects and that they were involved in the missile shutdowns.

32:30So Fowler got this information from his people. He contacts Roy Craig, the chief investigator for Condon, tells him all about it, gives him details, gives him names, dates, places, etc. There are phone numbers of his people that can confirm the UFO's connection. And Craig says, okay, I'm going to go out to Malmstrom and check this out. So he goes to Malmstrom, and I've got this on audio tape also, by the way. He talks to Louis Chase, the base officer, the base UFO officer, The same guy that went out to Belt, Montana, saw the object out there, wrote two messages, one to U.S. Air Force headquarters and another one to Condon about the activity.

33:31And in one of those, he says, I went to the base command post, or the wing command post, rather, and talked to the officer in charge there. This was the same officer that we had reported our incident to. And he said, I coordinated with him on the UFO activity. In writing, he's got this in writing. When Craig goes out there to talk to him, Chase, he denies it. The following interview conducted by Roy Craig is with Lieutenant Colonel Louis D. Chase, who is chief of the operations division at Malmstrom Air Force Base, Montana. The interview is being conducted at Malmstrand on October 19, 1967. Now, right above that same time, we heard rumbles from other areas that something happened here on the base related to the failure of a flight of Minutemen.

34:49It's about the 24th of course. And this has any connection with the UFO business. The rumor mill has that there was a UFO socket by one of the SAC maintenance crew who went out to check out why the flight had lost power? As far as the status of the missile site was contracted here, I can't discuss it, Dr. Frey, because what is on alert, what is not, for all periods of time, I shouldn't refer you to other people on that. All I can tell you is that the time that we had the reported landing, the whole area here. We had lots of reports on them. But I'm not privy to knowledge of what the status of the missile sites are.

35:46You can see this, of necessity, must be classified. And I'm not privy to this type of knowledge. I think the comment that came to us was that some of the maintenance crew who had to check out sites that had lost power, that's unexplained, had said they saw a Wi-Fi come down and circle the base in broad daylight or something like this, and then this would be night the next day after it had been, you know, and then a big hush-up sort of thing. You're not aware of anything of this sort of thing? No. No, this I'm not, because I wouldn't know what the status of the missiles were. Now, how about it?

36:24It's common for us to have a commercial power failure or something like this. that this happens repeatedly, such as commercial power does anyway. And I just have a suspicion that some of the commercial power people happen to be a power outage someplace, and they try to tie the two of them together. But this, I would tell. But I would respect this as a real strong possibility. He did not know anything about it. Why did he do that? He did that because he did not want Condon investigators snooping around and putting in their report that UFOs had shut down missiles. Do you think somebody got to him?

37:08Did he have some ulterior motive? Why would he want to deny the committee that he's supposedly working for access to an event that seems like it's their mandate to investigate? Because the Air Force organized this whole conant investigation as a whitewash. It was whitewashed even before they got started. There was a famous letter written by the deputy to Con and Robert Lowe, who wrote a memo stating that it was going to appear to be a scientific investigation, but indeed they would find nothing. And then there was another letter that Chase had written after having a big meeting in June of 67 with other base UFO officers and the Condon investigative team stating that the final wording for the Condon investigation would read, you know, nothing to see here.

38:18Yeah, I believe there are letters, too, between Colonel Robert Hippler of the Air Force and Condon. Basically, Hippler is saying, like, I want you to show that this was all a waste of time and money. He's talking about Blue Book and Condon sort of complying with that. So it seemed like a kind of a hit job. It was. It was a whitewash. Yeah. Yeah. So, in fact, it was Hitler when after this meeting between Craig and Lewis, Craig went to Lowe and said, maybe we ought to get the report on their investigation. And Lowe said later on, he replied, he said, I've already talked to Hitler. Hitler said this is probably going to be too highly classified for us to look at.

39:13And plus, Hitler told him they think, the Air Force thinks, that EMP from nuclear testing was the cause of these shutdowns. Really? Yes, really. Back then? Back then. Oh. I've got it in writing. That's wild. Interesting. Any specifics on, like, the model or anything? When I read that, when we read that, my investigator, James Klotz, who's a co-author of that first book we wrote, Gentleman's Still Living,

39:53we checked with the Department of Energy who was in charge of, well, cognizant of nuclear testing being done in the Nevada desert, right, time. There were no nuclear tests on March 16th or March 24th. so it couldn't have been EMP from a nuclear test. Yeah, and that's, I think, you know, I got into this whole squabble online or whatever where people are saying there were EMPs at Starfish Prime in 62 or whatever, and there are EMPs that are caused by nuclear detonations. Yes. But my understanding is that operational non-nuclear EMPs weren't, maybe at most they were, you know, undergoing extremely preliminary investigation at DOE-sensitive sites, but they weren't being used, let alone on our own nukes, live nukes.

40:51There's no way. Absolutely not. In fact, in our book, again, Fated Giant, we talk about references. We list the references, actually. People can look them up, of testing that was done on our kind of equipment, but it was done at a base like Space Missile Systems Organization in San Bernardino Hill Air Force Base in Utah, but it was not operational equipment. I mean, the equipment wasn't operational, but it was the type of equipment we had, right? They did want to do authentic tests and to see what, impact was. Now, we're talking about something like the production of 6 million volts of electricity in EMP discharge.

41:57We're also talking about equipment that was not mobile. In order to produce this EMP, they had to set up a superstructure to hold the generating device that would fire six million volts. And that took time to build. I mean, it took at least three days from what I understand. Yeah, you can't install that in secret. Even in the diagram in the Wall Street Journal, it was like a 60-foot test stand or whatever was required to uphold the EMP. And the idea that that would get wheeled up to the gate without any of these officers understanding that the EMP was there and not being freaked out about some UFO.

42:49Well, they would have reported it. The guards upstairs would have reported any activity like that. Yeah, it makes no sense. And it's interesting to see the Wall Street Journal use the same cover story as Robert Hitler used back then. That's, you know, kind of interesting. Well, kind of. Hitler stated to Lowe, apparently, and I've got this in writing, a handwritten note by Robert Lowe, that he talked to Hitler and Hitler told him the Air Force thinks that EMP from nuclear testing was the cause of the shutdown. That's even better because that's like Roswell where they have, you know, it's like a weather balloon and then it's like these, you know, Huntington's disease children using, you know, an experimental Nazi craft.

43:36It's like they changed the story like five times. So it sounds like back then it was a nuclear detonation. Now it's a test EMP. The exact model of which cited by the Wall Street Journal wasn't actually tested until 71 and ready until 1973. Right. It's absolutely crazy. Interesting. Yeah, they've got to get their story straight. They're going to debunk well. Boeing also did a bench test on what's called the logic coupler. Okay. The logic coupler is, think of it as an onboard computer that would take data from onboard instruments after the launch of the missile, Minuteman 1. And again, an inertial guidance system.

44:25We didn't have GPS satellites up there guiding this thing on target, right? It had to compute how well it was doing to get on target in flight. And this logic coupler would help with that processing. So Boeing took that piece of hardware and did a bench test and we're able to momentarily cycle it off by injecting a certain energy or electrical input, certain frequency, voltage, duration, and basically cause it to malfunction momentarily and cause the guidance system to shut down. Interesting. So they suggested it as a possible cause of the failure mode, guidance and control system failure. However, they had no idea on how that could be injected into each missile separately within seconds and shut each missile down so quickly because, number one, we had what's called these large cable about eight to nine inch in diameter.

46:00They were triply shielded. They went from the location we were, the capsule, underground for another mile or so. But they were triply shielded against EMI, electromagnetic interference. And so they did say in this report that they think it was an externally caused, it was an external signal that caused the shutdowns, but they could not explain how that signal got into the system. Yeah. So Boeing goes in, they test it, and presumably they're using whatever state-of-the-art methods exist at the time as far as shutting down nukes, and they're going directly after the accelerometers, these inertial mass units.

46:53And they can show that they could do it in one, but that doing it simultaneously in 10 is impossible. Right. And they admit to being puzzled afterwards. They're brought in as consultants. They are paid, presumably, to, you know, success for them is explaining it in a prosaic fashion. That's how they're judged. And they're unable to do that. Yeah. They were identified. These two, the individuals that did this testing were identified by SAC headquarters by name. They wanted those two people to do these, you know, to do part of the investigation. but we were in contact with James Klotz and I made contact with them and talked to them and they said that they couldn't explain how that signal could have possibly have gotten in there.

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49:31You don't have to fight it alone, thanks to iRestore. How did you, after that, did you live your life differently outside of having experienced this highly anomalous event and probably being questioned about it and wanting to get the message out that maybe we're not alone. You know, outside of that, did it change your perspective on life or, you know, change your view, your worldview in any kind of profound ways?

49:59Well, I lost confidence in the integrity of the Air Force after that, for sure. You know, I had planned a career in the Air Force, and after this, I wasn't quite so sure I wanted to do that. And so it changed it in that way. And Malmstrom is no stranger to incidents like these, right? So eight days before you mentioned the Echo Flight incident, what exactly happened there? I echo flight Walt Feigel again, a lieutenant at the time, later a colonel, retired. As far as I know, still living. Talked to him about a year ago, I think. But he was in charge of the facility. And one of the missiles gets shut down.

50:54One of the missiles where he had guards and security, well, maintenance people and security people out at two of the launch facilities. They had stayed overnight because they were going to start early the next morning and do some kind of modification to these missiles. He calls out there and says, you guys aren't supposed to do anything without my permission. And they said, we didn't do anything. By the way, these objects are hovering just above us.

51:33And at first he couldn't believe what they were saying, but very shortly after that, all 10 of his missiles went down. Wild. So very similar. Similar. Yeah. And then I want to tell you about an incident that happened in 1966, September of 1966, at Minot Air Force Base, North Dakota. Not in Montana. This is just North Dakota. Again, another witness has come forward, a man by the name of David Shindell, who relieved the crew. but before they relieved the crew, he talked to the security people upstairs who told him that UFOs were seen over the facility the night before. When they got down to relieve the crew, all 10 missiles had been shut down.

52:33After entering the capsule, our eyes were immediately transfixed on the launch control council, which showed that all missiles were off alert and unlaunchable. We had never seen such a thing before. The outgoing crew briefed us on the wild events that transpired overnight and indicated that the missiles malfunctioned at the time the object was hovering directly above the capsule and next to the main gate. And again, this was as a result of the UFO activity above the facility. So we're talking between September of 66 and March of 67, we lost 30 missiles to UFO activity. It's wild. Yeah. 30. 30.

53:25That's pretty, pretty insane. And Malmstrom itself, I mean, even Robert Hastings, who wrote this, you know, probably the authoritative chronicle of all of the UFO events when it comes to nuclear weapons, UFO and nukes. Great book. He was a janitor at Malmstrom Air Force Base, I believe in 67. And he, I guess this like radar operator had taken him under his wing and was teaching him about radar theory and brought him over. They said they were tracking unknowns at the time. One night, and as best as I can tell, it was the second half of March of 67. was emptying trash cans and pushing a broom. And he motioned me over to his scope.

54:11And he pointed, he said, we're tracking. And he probably said unknowns. That's the formal term for unidentified objects. I saw five blips in the sort of northeast quadrant of his radar scope. And then he thinks that that might have been around the same time as your incident. It could have been. I believe his father worked in that facility. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. This was part of the NORAD organization, right? Yep. That would monitor the skies for possible incoming, you know, bombers or whatever, heading for the U.S. But, yeah, that's true. And then I believe in 1993, there's a now retired missile technician, a guy named John Mills, who was headed, I think, with, you know, four other guys.

55:08They had left the base and they're headed towards Malmstrom. They saw a UFO hovering around Malmstrom. They get back to the base and apparently everybody there said that the base had been swarmed. and so and then there's there's even their other there's a guy named chris langan who's known for having this sort of theory of everything in physics which you know maybe take that with a grain of salt i don't know how real that is but you know maybe he's got a big ego i don't know if the theory is real i don't think he's lying about the fact that he said he was driving past you know um uh uh near uh malmstrom and he sees a ufo right ahead on the ufo thing i was working for the forest service not too far from malmstrom air force base one day i was up there in a forest service pickup truck at a certain campground and i was there and suddenly i look up and i say suddenly it was just in the sky i became aware that it was up there and i looked up there's this huge spheroidal you know but elliptical not not a perfect spheroid like a saucer that was turned partially on its side.

56:12So it just seems like there's a real pattern over time with Malmstrom. Even though the Air Force tried to get out of it, in 1969, they even quoted the Condon investigation and said that we have no evidence that UFOs are a cause of national security concern, and therefore we're going to shut down Blue Book. We're not going to be reporting to the public on UFO sightings, and we're probably not going to do much investigating ourselves. Well, And incidents continue to occur, you know, again, in 1975 at Malmstrom. There is a NORAD report of UFO settings, again, over Malmstrom missile basis. 1968, I've listed about 13 in my book incidents involving nuclear weapons and UFOs.

57:23And when you did come out and go public, you've done interviews with Larry King and you've spoken at various conferences all over the world. Did you receive any backlash and did you experience any resistance about your testimony? I never have. That's pretty remarkable. Do you have a theory as to why? Because some of your colleagues who have gone public, people like Bob Jacobs, photo instrumentation specialist at Vandenberg in 64, he's experienced obviously a lot of reprisals and took a career. It's such a career hit that they denied he ever even worked at Vandenberg and was even involved in the Air Force.

58:02Yeah. I'm just speculating again. Because I did sign a nondisclosure agreement, which basically I violated when I started going public about my incident being at Oscar flight. I didn't find that out until 1996 when I finally contacted, I was able to contact my commander, Fred Mywald. And he told me we were not at Echo Flight. We were at Oscar Flight. I've been speaking about the Echo Flight incident as though it was mine because it was so similar to what I had recalled. But once he told me that, I realized I was in violation of the NDA. and I had to make a decision as to whether I should shut up, no longer talk about it, or keep going, keep talking about it.

59:00And I decided to keep going. Did they make you sign an NDA around this specific incident or just working, really? Yes. And that's what everybody says. That's what Mario Woods says. That's what, you know, everybody who experiences the incident right after they make you sign an NDA. Right. And do you remember what the NDA said or like what that was like? Like who came up to you and said you have to sign this? Yeah. Right after we were relieved by another crew, after our incident occurred, we were ordered back to the base to our squander commander's office. walked in there and uh first thing i asked by the way uh my squadron commander who was an ex world war ii b-17 pilot tough as nails he was white as a sheet and i asked him what the hell happened there i you know in our incident was this some kind of an air force test to see, you know, how we'd respond or anything like that?

1:00:07He said, absolutely not. There was no test involved. He didn't know anything more than I did. And by the way, he introduced me to a man from AFOSI, Air Force Office of Special Investigation. It was in the office with him, and all he wanted was to have us sign a nondisclosure agreement. I complained about that because we already had above top secret. You know, if they told us not to talk about this, we wouldn't, you know. But that seems like a recurring pattern is an Air Force officer, a special investigation agent, always shows up around nuclear UFO incidents and then swears you to secrecy. Right, right.

1:00:51So that's, yeah, it just seems like this pattern. That's fascinating. They want to clamp down on witnesses. Are you familiar with, have you heard of the Pentacle Memo? Do you know what that is? No. So this was Jacques Vallée, who was kind of Jalen Hynek's assistant, you know, Blue Book. Obviously, Jalen Hynek is this, you know, Northwestern professor, astronomer. So Jacques Vallée is looking through the Blue Book files, and he finds this thing called the Pentacle Memo, which is this guy named Howard C. Cross, who is a guy who works at Battelle Memorial Institute. and he is writing basically saying like we have a all these sensitive sites around which ufos are showing up regularly and we know that these hot spots exist and battel is going to do a more surgical real investigation of these things while basically you know blue book is going to go on doing its kind of front front facing kind of bs pr job and jacques valet and apparently this couldn't get brought up around the Robertson panel.

1:01:53Like there's, you're, you were not supposed to bring this, this memo up. And so Jacques Vallée goes to Jalen Heineck privately and says, did you know about this? Like, you know, are you, um, are you kind of complicit in, uh, uh, basically concealing, uh, you know, our, what's supposed to be this earnest UFO inquiry from this actually real vital investigation that's going on around, you know, nuclear sites across the U S and Jalen Hynek kind of plays dumb and says, you know, I didn't know about it and stuff. But I do wonder sometimes, you know, especially when you hear this very coordinated effort that involves Air Force officers, special investigations agents.

1:02:33Was there something underneath Blue Book, underneath the Condon, you know, commission that was very real about, you know, there was a real UFO investigation going on at the time? Oh, absolutely. No question about it. I mentioned that, you know, since probably 47, there's been an attempt to seriously cover up anything that was found related to UFOs, you know, such as craft that were retrieved or non-human intelligences that were retrieved. And those were studied and worked on in secret. Well, like you say, organizations like Blue Book were just kind of a way to quell public excitement over this subject.

1:03:36Yeah. At what point do you think the Air Force made that decision to split off kind of, you know, this front facing facade, Blue Book, and then more vital investigations of UFOs? Was it around the Robertson panel in 1952, maybe? Okay, so in 1948, there was a, and this was the precursor to Blue Book, it was called Project Sign, right? People that were working on that had come up with enough information, pilot reports, etc., to conclude that these were extraterrestrial objects. They were not manufactured on Earth. And they wanted, and so the Air Force Chief of Staff, Hoyt Vandenberg, wanted a briefing.

1:04:35And so they produced a briefing for him called the Estimate of the Situation. It was a real document. It was seen by Ruppelt, who would be the next head of Blue Book, the first head of Blue Book, really, after Project Sign. And he read the thing, and he confirmed in his book. I've got a copy of his book that he wrote, Ruppelt wrote. His report on the unidentified object. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. And he confirmed that they had strong evidence that these were not aircraft that we knew how to build because of their abilities to maneuver, maneuvering abilities. And he confirmed this must have been from elsewhere, off Earth.

1:05:32Yeah, well, you had Nathan Twining writing in this 1947 memo to this guy Brigadier Shulgren, and he's saying UFOs are not visionary or fictitious. He even says in the postscript of the memo, we have within our means or within our knowledge the ability to build these crafts. But if we were to do that, if directed, you know, these would need to basically look like the Manhattan Project. They need to take place in a wholly separate compartment from existing projects and, you know, kind of exist very, you know, sub-Rosa and this sort of secret. But anyway, Vandenberg didn't buy this estimate of the situation and basically informed Blue Book that, you know, they're full of it.

1:06:23They're going to tamp down on any idea that these could be extraterrestrial. And so they changed the whole fabric of Blue Book after that. That turned into a Project Grudge, I think it was called, after Blue Book. And that's when they started doing more disinformation. And again, from the Robertson panel, too, the directive was, let's keep an eye on UFO groups that are looking at these reports. Let's infiltrate them. Let's do whatever we can to keep the public from getting too excited about all this. Yeah. To this day. Right. so we just talked about the condon commission which was very interesting you know supposed to be this impartial study that the air force was supposed to have no involvement with and you know they were going to objectively evaluate the results of blue book i think we both know that might actually not have been the case it might have been sort of a bad faith effort talk talk to us about that because that's i didn't even realize you know i've been talking about your story for a while because it's such a remarkable case.

1:07:52And I didn't even realize how much the Condon Commission kind of tied in, you know, with the officer there. And yeah. Well, let me just start with this. In 1949, I believe it was, J. Edgar Hoover wrote a letter to Congress. I'm not sure it was McCarthy or not, but in that letter, he identified Edward Condon as, and I'm paraphrasing, nothing less than a Russian spy. I've got a copy of that letter. And so Condon, who had been actually part of the Manhattan Project, He was number two man under Oppenheimer. But there was a security issue. I don't know the details of that, but he was asked to resign for the Manhattan Project because of some security issue.

1:09:00And so he did resign. But later he was appointed, I'm not sure the agency, but by Truman he was appointed to some head of agency. And then this letter comes out from Hoover. And so he was questioned during the McCarthy hearings. And eventually he lost his security clearance as a result of that. And so he went to work for the University of Colorado as a physicist. He was a very good physicist, well respected. And at some point, I think this was someone who knew him, Lou Branscom? Lou Branscom, yeah. Yeah. He came to visit Condon and said, you know, and this was in the, around 1966, I think it was.

1:10:08and said, you know, it's been a while since you lost your security clearance. Maybe it's time you reapply it to see if you can get that clearance back because I know you want to do some research and get some government funding for it. and he said, well, he wasn't sure this would be successful, but Branscombe told him, you know, the Air Force needs someone to head up this UFO study, and it would help if you accepted that. It would probably help you get your security clearance. Anyway, that's the background I don't know what actually happened there But Condon actually gave an interview to the physical society American Institute of Physics Thank you, American Institute of Physics He gave a long interview And I think this was discussed in that interview Yeah, well, it's funny.

1:11:20In that interview, he talks about Lou Branscombe just randomly goes up to him. He says, hey, maybe you should get your security clearance back. No explanation. And Branscombe is deep in the kind of defense, you know, elite apparatus of the U.S. at the time. He's a part of the Jason advisory group, which is, you know, this group that's meeting in Santa Barbara talking about the most kind of elite frontier weaponry, you know, defensive and offensive. And so he goes to Condon and says, maybe you should get your security clearance back. The interviewer in this American Institute of Physics interview with Condon then says, why do you need your security clearance?

1:11:58Like if all of this stuff was bogus, were you, you know, reviewing any sort of classified material as part of the Condon, you know, commission? and he gets very awkward and he says, well, you know, maybe there was a video or two. I don't really know, you know, sort of like walking back, you know, his stuff. And it's interesting. I didn't know that about the J. Edgar Hoover letter about him, but I did know that a guy named Guy Hoddle, who's an FBI field agent in Washington, is basically creating a dossier on Condon throughout the 50s after he loses his Q clearance. And he did clash with Leslie Grove six weeks into the Manhattan Project because he wanted more openness around nuclear stuff.

1:12:40And so that's why he was fired. And so that brings up this line in the movie Oppenheimer where Leslie Grove's his character, he says, you know, I didn't hire Oppenheimer in spite of his communist sympathies. I hired him because of them. And I think about this guy in Condon who's been marginalized. You know, he's lost his Q clearance. They said that, you know, he had labor sympathies in the 20s or whatever. And then they just randomly give him his clearance back. You know, and they have all this compromise on him through Guy Hoddle. I mean, I couldn't pick a better person to do your dirty work as far as kind of doing a hit job on the whole UFO thing.

1:13:19It's fascinating. Right. Also, you know, he wrote the McMahon Secrecy Act, which was in 1946. A lot of the language in that act worked its way into the Atomic Energy Act of 1954. And so he's kind of laid out the secrecy protocols for UFOs. And then so it's this weird history with Condon. It's just fascinating. do you think that that's going on at all today because you you know you have this wall street journal article coming out saying that an emp was you know somehow wheeled up to you know malmstrom in plain sight of all these people who claim to witness a ufo they don't even report on the witnessing of the ufo they just discard that entirely it just seems like a hit job like this doesn't seem like an earnest uh impartial accounting of the facts that you relayed to them Yeah, let's talk a little bit about that.

1:14:10Why would they come after me? Well, I can think of the rationale that would go this way. The basis of our national security, so says the Department of Defense on a yearly basis when they put out their nuclear posture review. It's basically a statement about nuclear weapons is that nuclear deterrence is the backbone, the basis of our national security. Nuclear deterrence. So if I start, you know, coming forward and speaking about strange objects that are able to disable our nuclear weapons, of course, that's going to require the Department of Defense to explain what they're doing about it, if anything, whether they can do anything about it.

1:15:21And they've already said nuclear deterrence, which is the concept started in the 50s, by the way, that says we have a preponderance of nuclear weapons more than any other nation or at least as much. No nation will attack us with nuclear weapons or even non-nuclear weapons. And so we've used that rationale. That rationale caused the arms race during the Cold War, right? To the point where in 1967, the world nuclear powers had 32 ,000 nuclear weapons. Now, these weapons range, you know, in the kiloton range to megaton or a million tons of TNT equivalent, but certainly enough to destroy every living thing on Earth if we use them in a nuclear war.

1:16:40And we still have 20 ,000 today total. So we've got nine nuclear nations, and everybody's afraid now that Iran will get one. That's right. And the fact is that, you know, with an effort, nuclear weapons could probably be accessed by any country that really wants them because the technology is out there. How to build a nuclear bomb is out there. In fact, I once saw a website that went through all the details on how to do that. Jesus. Yeah. Yeah.

1:17:37Anyway, so I don't think the reason they would want to discredit people like myself, Dave Shindell, and many other witnesses to this phenomenon where UFOs have been interacting at nuclear weapons facilities. I've only touched the surface with those 13 that I mentioned in my book. There have been many, many others. I've been in touch with witnesses who are afraid to come forward or can't come forward because of nondisclosure agreements and fear of losing their jobs or their lives or whatever. But there are many other witnesses out there that could come forward to talk about incidents that happened where they were involved.

1:18:30Have you met any witnesses who have not been public and kind of fear for their lives or reputations and confide in you around this stuff? Yes. Have you met any that also have nuclear incidents, nuclear-related? Yes. Have you met any that have seen craft in hangars on the ground, or are they all aerial witnessings of UFOs? Well, what I can tell you is that I had something happen to me where I met one of my friends from the Air Force Academy. Who indicated to me that he had actually flown.

1:19:25a craft similar to a UFO that operated under similar principles. Wow. Was in his belief it was of non-human origin or it was like some sort of gravity-miodifying craft that we had built? We didn't get into those details. But let's just say I believed him. And so I think we have back-engineered craft that had been recovered. That's wild. Did he say anything about the experience of flying it, like the G-Force? He was pretty excited, but the way it went down, it was very quick. he was he didn't want to go into details obviously this was highly classified and he was concerned about my knowing about it after he said it push your limits train with precision see the results at Equinox that's high performance loving iconic spaces that inspire personal training backed by real data unlimited group fitness classes from yoga and Pilates to strength and conditioning.

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1:20:57But you feel like he was trustworthy. Absolutely. I spent four years going through the academy with him. Wow. Well, that's always been... I knew him very well. Yeah, yeah. So it's not your limited hangout, you know, at a UFO conference. You get targeted with some info or whatever. This is a long-trusted friend who opens up to you towards the end of that four-year period around this? Oh, it was after. It was after. Oh, yeah. I was out of the Air Force at the time. So how long had you known him before he confided in you around this? well i'd uh i'd say uh well we went through four years together and this was about 10 years after graduation well and won't push you farther but if he wants to go public at any point i would talk to him that is fascinating yeah um but i let's just say I know other witnesses who could come forward and validate some of these things.

1:22:05It's so interesting. I mean, yeah, clearly, even you look at Robert Hastings' book and you have 167 queue-cleared guys who all had to sign NDAs immediately after their sightings, many of whom faced career reprisals. You have to think if 167 people who are coming out, despite all the disincentives to come out, it's got to be thousands of actual witnesses and people who, you know, in reality have experienced things around nuclear specifically alone. There have been many, many, yes. And it's so interesting too to, you know, sometimes you'll hear about a UFO story in the lore, like the aerial school sighting in 1994 with the UF60, you know, school children in Zimbabwe.

1:22:48And you learn that there's a uranium mine right there or the Pascagoula, you know, the fishermen in Pascagoula, you know, in 74. And then you realize that all the, you know, Navy nuclear subs were being built in Pascagoula, Missouri. So there's often this kind of unknown connection, too. Do you think that it's, you know, we were talking about theories before the cameras were rolling. Do you think that they are trying to save us from ourselves and make us realize our sort of brutish ways? Do you think that it generalizes beyond nuclear to, like, you know, advanced science, like particle accelerators or AI or, you know, any other things like that?

1:23:28Or do you think it's just nuclear? What do you think? Well, what I think is they see us as very warlike and with nuclear weapons. we could have a nuclear war. I mean, it's not out of the realm of possibility now. I think what's happening currently with Iran and Israel,

1:24:02you know, we can all visualize how that could escalate into the use of nuclear weapons. Yeah, go for it. What were you going to say? We also have Pakistan and India who are at war with each other, both nuclear powers. Russia has threatened to use so-called tactical nukes against Ukraine. But even if a small nuke, like a— And by that, we're talking about these tactical nukes are 15 to 20 kilotons equivalent TNT, and that's the same size nuke that was used at Hiroshima and Nagasaki. yeah it's a scary state we're in a multipolar nuclear world that's like you know it's funny i feel like cold war uh tensions have died down in some ways as far as like the zeitgeist you know that sort of dive duck and roll like we're not mentally prepared but it's actually worse than you know maybe pre you know uh berlin wall falling where all of a sudden you have xi and putin closer than they've ever been.

1:25:18You know, Iran and Israel is really a proxy war for this larger kind of global conflict. You have Pakistan, you know, having nukes, which like, you know, think about the amount of Al Qaeda still in Waziristan, Northern Pakistan, like that could be a failed state at any moment. I think Obama was quoted as saying that keeps him up more than anything at night, that Pakistan becoming a failed state. So the amount of threat vectors around nuclear specifically are growing. And sometimes I think, I don't know if you think this too, that like if there was ever an explicit disclosure moment, it might occur around us being on the brink.

1:25:56If you have another kind of Cuban missile crisis or an event where nukes are about to go off and you have more explicit intervention, like the intervention you saw at Malmstrom in 67, but around missiles that are maybe about to go off or something, that might bring the, you know, kind of collective world into a greater understanding around these things. I don't know. So in 1914, H.G. Wells wrote this book called The World Set Free. And in that book, he talks about the construction of an atomic bomb. Yeah. And not only that, but he talks about, in different terms, but the generation of energy or electricity from a nuclear reactor.

1:26:46He even predicted dates, which are close. The first nuclear reactor went online in Russia in 1954. I think he mentions in this novel, The World Set Free. It happened in 55, I think, in this book But it even talks about the first time The splitting of the atom And something like the transmutation Which occurred Creating two different elements By the splitting of the atom Which actually happened And that happened to be a Nazi scientist by the name of Hahn, I think, who did an experiment in 1938 and was first to split the atom. and plus they detected a certain amount of energy from that reaction that could be enormous if many atoms were split in very short order, which was a chain reaction, right, which was later done.

1:28:08But anyway, this book became the reason that it was brought to the attention by Einstein and another fellow who's a name I can't remember right now. But they wrote to FDR for a meeting about the possibility that Germany could build an atomic bomb. And that's what started the process of having our own program, the Manhattan Project, to beat Nazi Germany to the bomb. So fascinating. Yeah, the history is so amazing. And, you know, the Germans really seemed ahead of us for a while. They were worried. Heisenberg was known as this genius at the time, and he was running the German program. And then Luis Walter Alvarez at the Livermore Lab, you know, figured out that, you know, maybe we could do this too.

1:29:08and then it seems like they went off on the wrong path and really started experimenting with this heavy water engine, you know, sort of deuterium. And that ended up not working out. But who knows? You know, this is really trippy and weird, but it's just a connection I made, is a lot of the rumors around, you know, UFOs and how they fly involve a deuterium reactor, you know, in the middle, like a heavy water engine. And so I wonder if, you know, one timeline is like super destructive where we figure out the nuclear bomb and then maybe Heisenberg was like onto something that involved civil side propulsion or something.

1:29:51And then that's what the ETs or whatever these beings are, the non-human beings are flying around. Right. Well, you know, I like to conjecture that since these are very advanced beings, if they were able to travel intergalactically or, you know, from another star system, that they've been through this process of developing weapons of mass destruction, maybe fought wars themselves. and, but we're finally able to determine how to live in peace with their neighbors and they want to see us accomplish the same thing and get rid of our nuclear weapons and try to learn how to live in peace. Yeah. Is there a science fiction book that most accurately describes your worldview or do you think, yeah, Yeah, do you have a sense of the intention of the non-human intelligence?

1:30:58I mean, it sounds like you think that they're trying to kind of wake us up a little bit. Well, I mean, to me, I'm just using logic. I'm thinking if they're so far advanced than us, they must have been through the same evolutionary process or a similar process where they had difficulty dealing with other groups, other life forms, and possibly had wars like we have had. And they can see where we're headed if we keep down this path. Like I said, the Department of Defense uses this idea of nuclear deterrence or having a nuclear weapons program that's greater, better than anyone else as a means to protect our national security.

1:32:00That's the basis. And so they want to keep the nuclear program going with nuclear weapons, you know, and put the fear in everybody else that might try to attack us. And that's, but that's not sustainable. That's not a sustainable program if other countries feel the same way, right? Because they're going to want nuclear weapons too. And they have. Yeah, it's a scary time. Right. It's hard to say where this all leads or goes, but like probabilistically, if you don't have non-human intelligence in the mix, then you'd assume some sort of nuclear calamity, you know, near term. Like, it's hard to say that, like, if you have, what'd you say, 20 ,000 nukes now and, you know.

1:32:50Approximately. And increasingly kind of balkanized complex web of alliances, you know, with tensions rising. Right. It doesn't feel good. No, it's not good. And so that's why we have to make the effort to try to abolish them worldwide. The SALT, I think it was called the New START Treaty, when President Obama was in office, actually signed a treaty with Russia to reduce the number of operational nuclear weapons. I think it was 1 ,500 each. so each country would have 1 ,500, and then work towards reducing them until we got to zero, both the U.S. and Russia. And, of course, there was an inspection regime where they would send inspectors here.

1:33:48We would send inspectors there to see what was going on in each country with the reduction of nuclear weapons. So there was an active program to go to zero between two of the major players in nuclear weapons. So we can't just assume this can't be done. As Oppenheimer said in one of his last speeches that he gave to his scientists, we can't afford to think that we can't abolish all nuclear weapons. Well, yeah, you had the salt talks as well in the 70s and you had back channels that JFK had established with Khrushchev where he was trying for detente and trying for denuclearization. And you had guys like Alan Dulles, who he had fired, director of the CIA, who basically wanted to take him out, whether he did or not.

1:34:46You know, I think he might have. But, you know, around around that issue. And then, yeah, like you said, Obama had that initiative, but then you look at the same forces kind of behind Obama and you had this Ukraine peace deal in April of, you know, 2022, right after it started. And, you know, we have not done Ukraine any favors by telling them not to sign that deal. You know, they've lost hundreds of thousands of people. And maybe it's some strategy to like tire out, you know, Russia or something. But it doesn't seem like Putin's very happy with us. You have Medvedev, you know, former president on Twitter saying, you know, this is, you know, this is going to get really bad, you know, like really suggestive videos that he's posting and stuff.

1:35:37And so, yeah, it's a weird time. This is a kind of a crazy segue, but, you know, Medvedev was interviewed actually, and it was on April Fool's Day. And an interviewer asked him about UFOs and thought that, you know, he would not take it seriously. And then he goes, oh yeah, no, we have an extensive file about this stuff.

1:36:23It is heard from the experts cooperate on the international network of our planet, forwards the proper job of the supply of multible�es.

1:36:44After the construction mission, they will be sent a message to our president.

1:37:01And he talks about a nuclear connection. No doubt. And it's so fascinating. And maybe it's plausible deniability for him because it's on April Fool's or whatever. But it's wild that you have this former Russian president talking about this. Crazy. Right. And there have been other Russian officials that come out and say, yeah, we've got people studying the UFO questions. So no doubt that these incidents have happened all over the world. All over the world. You have a Russian general, Vasily Alexeyev, coming out in a German magazine in 2000 saying this stuff. And then one of my favorite ones is there's Marconi, you know, the radio engineer, famous radio engineer.

1:37:49So he is rumored to be part of, you know, this majestic 12 equivalent, quote unquote, in Italy called the RS-33. Actually, I don't know if you remember this. I met you briefly at the San Marino event, which is this global UFO conference held there in Italy. And so you have Roberto Pinotti and other guys, you know, Paolo Guzzardi, you know, who do research on this out there. and Marconi's grandson in an interview that's video everybody can see the video of this he's speaking to Ogo magazine which is I guess their people magazine equivalent so it's sort of a gossip magazine but he says yeah my grandfather had a lot to do with the UFO and ET issue he's a part of this select committee um with uh um why am I blanking on the the Mussolini yeah there you go He was part of a select committee with Mussolini to study this stuff.

1:38:45And so it's just fascinating. This was the Magenta Crash, Magenta, Italy. In 1933. 33. You mentioned Roberto Panotti. He just finished a book about the Magenta Crash and shows documentation that, yeah, it really did happen. And Marconi, who invented radio, was assigned by Mussolini to head up the group that would investigate this and study the craft, et cetera. And that craft, you know, it's reasonable to see where that craft was taken to Germany, to Nazi Germany, where studies were done with that craft. In fact, Wernher von Braun, who we know was later taken back to the U.S. after World War II under Operation Paperclip, right?

1:39:53And he worked on the Apollo program. He knew a lot of the astronauts. He used to have astronauts over to his house on weekends for barbecues. And in fact, Gordon, let's see. Gordon Cooper? Gordon Cooper wrote a book. And in that book, he talks about von Braun telling him that they actually worked on UFO craft in Germany, Nazi Germany. Wow. And actually had a flying model. That is fascinating. I didn't know that Gordon Cooper wrote that. That's really amazing. Absolutely. Wow. I got to check that out. That's wild. Yeah. You get a hold of his book. I forgot the name of the book, but he did write it in there.

1:40:51So chances are Yeah, the back engineering of UFOs Goes way back That is fascinating Gordon Cooper is no scrub You know, he spent more time in orbit Than anybody before him as an astronaut As part of the Mercury missions These were before the Apollo missions That's amazing I didn't know that I got to research That's fascinating Look into it I will Yeah, because Wernher von Braun pops up in these stories you know he edgar mitchell says that he you know comes to him and says you know he has knowledge of this stuff and apparently he was involved in edgar mitchell actually doing these sort of remote viewing parapsychology experiments you know in space and stuff so there's tangential there all these anecdotes but that's maybe the most interesting anecdote of them all that he said he was directly involved in reverse engineering craft right fascinating in fact other of the uh paperclip scientists from nazi germany confirmed this um again during these weekend meetings with some of the astronauts well you know um werner von braun's mentor is a guy named herman oberth and herman oberth is on video speculating about ufos he says you know the existence of ufos should make anybody question reality and then he's He talks about, you know, time manipulation involved in UFO travel.

1:42:20And he was openly very interested in this stuff. So and then he actually, as part of Paperclip, comes to the U.S. to work as part of Convair Bell as well. So, yeah, it's fascinating. How do you evaluate? Because you obviously are very high conviction on your own experience. You have all these, you're kind of, you know, brothers in arms with the nuclear experiences where I'm sure you have to slap a pretty high probability on those being real given your own experience. You have a bunch of new whistleblowers now coming out in other contexts saying they've worked on programs or seen things. How do you evaluate those?

1:42:59Well, like I said From personal contact With a friend of mine I'm convinced that we have Back engineered Recovered craft And Even flown Some models Of that So I have no doubt about that The The The genetics studies or the studies that have been done on tissue of these beings that have been recovered, I think that has been done. There's been reports of that, good reports by individuals. So, yeah, and all that's being hidden from the public. Yeah. Do you have any hope of any of this stuff coming out at any point? Or do you think it's just so locked down and tightly controlled that we never get to see what a craft looks like?

1:44:07We don't understand its flight principles. At most, certain things leak in sort of these limited, you know, managed ways. You know, what do you think? Well, let's just say I'm hopeful. I'm hopeful. But we still have this committed organization that I call the UFO Cabal, Secrecy Cabal, which is determined to maintain the secrecy for a multitude of reasons, greed and power. And, you know, these secrets are very valuable. It can be used as, you know, bartering chips. But it's a worldwide organization, well-organized, well-funded, and it's going to be tough to break through. Do you have any final things to say to the Wall Street Journal, to Joel Sheckman, to Sean Kirkpatrick?

1:45:10I mean— Yeah, I'd like to know. what evidence Arrow has so that they were able to tell Joel Shechtman that this was some sort of EMP test. And if they have no evidence, in other words, then they're obviously intended to discredit me in some way for whatever reason. And it shows the modus operandi of the secrecy cabal in that they want to discredit witnesses like myself. And by the way, I'm not the only one, only witness to these incidents involving UFOs and nuclear weapons. There are many, many out there, including Dave Shindell I mentioned

1:46:15Walter Feigl

1:46:20etc I could name others some don't want to be named yeah no I mean it seems very very common I was diligenceing because I invest in companies that was my day job I'm sort of not doing that too much anymore but a month or two ago I was helping out a friend and he wanted help on an investment. And it was actually this like a way to create an artificial ozone layer to, you know, I thought it was a little harebrained, honestly, I didn't think it was the best, best deal to do, but it was this Israeli entrepreneur and he came from the Israeli nuclear program. And so I was like, at the end of, you know, speaking to him, of course, about the company, I was like, look, do you think that there's any, you know, UFO connection when it, when it comes to this stuff, you know, Haim Ashed, you're, you know, the head of your space force equivalent has said all these kind of really interesting things about ufos but also like uh you know this kind of secret space program and um you know it's galactic federation or whatever and he got very kind of uncomfortable and he was like we should talk in person or so you know we should we should talk you know he's like and he was just kept deflecting and i don't know i think you get a lot of that when it comes to the new the nuclear thing clearly is If you were to pick a starting point for empirical grounded inquiry into all this stuff, there's so much bullshit out there.

1:47:41But the nuclear thing seems like this really clear. Well, you know, after I read the article, the hit piece, disinformation, I wrote a rebuttal. And it was, I listed 14 reasons why it couldn't have been EMP testing that shut down my missiles. And it was about 1 ,100 to 1 ,200 words. I sent that to the Wall Street Journal. They wrote back and said, we can't accept this because it's too long. We have a limit of between 250 and 270 words. or any kind of op-ed or opinion piece. They didn't use the word rebuttal. But anyway, they rejected it. And they said, if you can condense it to 270 words, then we'll consider it.

1:48:45What is that, like a half a page or something? That's not a lot of words. Yeah, that's about a half a page. That's wild. That doesn't make sense to me. Also, it's like you have this, His thing was like 11 pages or something, the original piece. And then you're only allowing, you know, an Air Force veteran. You're in your 80s now. Is that right? That's right. That's amazing. They even mention in the article, by the way, that I'm an octogenarian. I don't know what that has to do with anything. Well, what a sucker punch, though, to somebody who served their country to say that, you know, this is a bullshit cover story about an EMP, not include any of the details around people topside actually seeing UFOs.

1:49:30UFOs, all of the other cases, the Echo Flight case eight days before and all of the cases since at Malmstrom, just ignore all of that and then allow you to publish something that is literally 5 % the length of their original piece. That's absurd. I agree. But I made the effort and sent them a 270-word rebuttal. And just yesterday, no, just this morning, I'm sorry, they said they were going to consider it, but they probably have to edit it. It's crazy. I wrote back and said, why should you edit my rebuttal on your article, which was full of errors? No, they clearly have some vested interest in destroying this topic.

1:50:29I don't know what it is, but did you hear about, I had a story too, that last November or something in the fall, I spoke to them about getting an op-ed published between Carl Nell and a cabinet, a former cabinet member. So somebody who's like a presidential cabinet member and not a low ranking cabinet member, like one of the more important positions in the cabinet. And that guy is saying he's expressing frustration about lack of civilian oversight around UFO programs and lack of his own access to these programs. and they rejected it out of hand with no, you know, reasons as to why they would reject it.

1:51:08And then they go on to write this hit job, you know, discrediting you and stuff. But they didn't mention that a cabinet member had submitted an op-ed to them last fall. It's just, I think that's all you need to know to say that they're acting in bad faith. I mean, you could maybe make some argument around bad bureaucracy, the left hand, the op ed sections not talking to the other. It's just it's it's nuts. Yeah. But I think this is an opportunity for Congress to get involved because they created Arrow. Right. Arrow's not performing because one of their jobs was to investigate reports like. like mine and follow through, get some answers.

1:51:56And in my case, I gave them a two-and-a-half-hour talk. I gave them documents to support what I was saying. They complimented me in writing and verbally on the job that I did. And then at the end of it, I asked, are you going to check with the Air Force and see if I'm, you know, what I've said is, you know, they can verify it. And they said no. Why wouldn't they do that? Exactly. I said, you know, no, because he said, because we haven't had cooperation from the Air Force on other witnesses. Well, yeah, I mean, look, I think, again, all you need to know is, you know, the crazy story of them not, you know, not involving the cabinet member submission, but also the fact that Colonel Robert Hippler is saying that this was due to, you know, an EMP fallout from a nuclear detonation, which is obviously bullshit.

1:53:07And then they come up with some new, you know, EMP simulation thing. Right. But they name an exact model that hadn't been, you know, ready until the early 70s. Right. So it's just, even if you're trying to discredit something, it's a lazy job. It's just not, it's not very good. Right. So, yeah, I don't know. It feels like to me, Kirkpatrick, who has always been kind of it feels like a fly trap or something like he's just trying to get the info and then squash these stories, is spoon feeding this information to Joel Sheckman, who probably knows nothing about UFOs, but he's a national security reporter.

1:53:46and he's just taking it face value. You know, you have this guy who seems like to be, you know, a normal credentialed physicist telling him that all this stuff is a hoax, which if you don't have the data set that you have or I have around UFOs and nukes, you're just going to believe and then you're just going to publish the thing, not going to fact check. Well, again, like I said, at some point, Congress has to do the job of getting to the bottom of this issue, this UAP. What is it? What have we been doing about it? What studies have we done? What have we learned? And they can start with bringing the Air Force in and asking them questions about incidents like mine and others.

1:54:35That would be great. Well, Bob Salas, really appreciate your time. Thank you for having us. And, yes, it's a fantastic discussion. And I hope that it opens people's minds and also allows them to look a little deeper when it comes to kind of just taking at face value some of these mainstream media headlines and coverage of this very important topic. Thank you, Jesse. I really appreciate your taking interest in my case and, well, the whole subject. Absolutely. All right. All right, that's our show. For more information about the ubiquitous link between UFOs and nuclear weapons, please watch my comprehensive documentary with the great journalist Robert Hastings.

1:55:19And if you want to watch my comprehensive takedown of The Wall Street Journal, I will link that video too. Finally, speaking of hearing out patriotic whistleblowers and veterans, please support my friend and past American alchemist Randy Anderson, who came on my show earlier this year to expose a possible off-world technology division at Naval Surface Warfare Crane in Indiana. He described seeing a levitating orb in a gauntlet emitting alien-looking hieroglyphics. My friend UAP Gerb also did an amazing deep dive on Randy that you can check out on his channel. Randy is setting up a very cool program called Alpha Rising.

1:55:54It's a group specifically for veterans, first responders, and anyone who wants to get their mind right and regain purpose in life. I'm linking his GoFundMe for that project in the description of this video. Until next time, I'm Jesse Michaels, and this is American Alchemy.

1:56:23Thank you.

1:56:51at equinox.com.