Fake ‘Alien Signals’ Drove Him Insane... (ft. Greg Bishop)

45:26Okay. So what else did he receive generally? Just that there were aliens from another planet. they were here they were trying to establish a base they needed earth women or something it sounds like a science fiction movie yeah to propagate their race their planet was dying wow all this stuff and that they were at some point going to take over and so that's what really scared him and i think he was saying that before and this computer just basically said okay let's take what he's saying and just crank it up and across the street there maybe are some nsa officials? Yes, maybe that happened. I mean, that's I the person that told me that was was was Bill.

46:05OK. And since he's my friend, I trust him. The people say this about Bill. Why do you trust him? It's like I've never found him to be lying to me ever. I've known him for what, 35 years or more? Well, if never lied to me once, if anything, his ability to off himself at MUFON and say that he was complicit in wrongdoing is probably maybe some sort of indicator that you should trust. him also uh i don't know why he would make that up i mean that seems if if you were uh to uh you know incept signals into a mainframe computer the nsa would be the ones to to do i mean that their signals intelligence that's what they do yeah exactly so somebody programmed it for him heinick brought it to the door he hooked it up and then started immediately seeing these messages He also saw pictures.

46:57He thought he was looking into the alien planet, into the future and past of the Earth. He had a little oscilloscope, or at least a CRT. Oh, my God. Analog CRT, you know, with the scans. What is CRT? Cathode ray tube. Okay. Like old TV screens. Yeah, got it, got it. And somebody had just put this video in there for him. Gabe told me he went over there and saw some of it. He said there were dinosaurs and like old like Roman battles and stuff. But they were probably from old movies. But they were all garbled and weird. And Gabe said he saw this. So somebody was beaming this junk at him. Oh, man.

47:37And apparently they set up across the street and to send these signals into the computer that would be decoded in the way the computer was designed to decode them. And he thought it was coming from inside the base because I think they probably just sent him at the same frequency. and then he starts to kind of lose his mind is that is that right or yeah as things get worse um he starts losing sleep he thinks there's going to be some sort of alien invasion the woman Myrna Hanson that she he had coming to his house in the 80s talking about she was talking about being abducted and going to this underground facility which really that stuff is I don't know if it's true or not but it's formed so much of the UFO lore afterward So a lot of stuff happening at the time that Paul was dealing with just became part of the UFO lore.

48:26And yes, there's independent people that have said that this happened to them. I don't know where they get that information. Maybe it's been, you know, disinfo beamed at them, you know, said to them too. I don't know. Yeah. But a lot of the tropes kind of started back then. He said there, you know, there was an alien base underground at the Archuleta Mesa. He went there with a camera and took pictures. Whoa. He said of things going in and out of the mountain, but they basically, they're just like blurs. Whoa. And it could be something, but it'd also be camera, you know, artifacts. Who knows? Nothing I've seen of the pictures he took up of the Archuleta Mesa area really amount to.

49:00There's no like clear like Billy Meyer looking picture. but you know a couple of the things he videos he took in at Kirtland show there's one of them that looks like a saucer kind of like this and there's a there's a PSA Pacific Southwest Airlines plane flying behind it so who knows what that thing was but as nobody came in and said Paul stop you know jesus um bill said he tried he did give him that aquarius document and it actually mentions access only to mj12 which is the first time anybody said anything about mj12 that's interesting was in this fake document the aquarius document wow and it says quote mj hyphen t-w-e-l-v-e unquote whoa yeah so somebody was trying to plant that in the in the culture then too like in you know 1981 81 or whenever he got this document but bill was told to give him this this the only documented thing that documented at least by bill where he said they told me to do this and they told me if i didn't give him that thing that the deal was off and he read it he knew what it was he's like this is being honest um so he went to paul's office and he was trained they gave him spy training bill they had them doing other stuff too they had them like you know passing mail through and doing you know stuff with soviet spies yeah on our side spies in the soviet union they would send postcards and you have to like read them on a telephone call exactly and then take them to another post office and mail it from that post office to the next post office spy stuff but he said that um he they finally because he hesitated it's like i i don't know if i want to do this he said it was like you know you're a kid they tell the mafia says why don't you stand on the corner and look tell me if this car comes by and then the next week you're burying bodies you know kind of thing yeah it wasn't that bad but he's like kind of he kind of just gets wormed into this yep this uh structure this this this intelligence structure so he said that he took the the finally he said okay you know i'm going to give it to paul he goes down to his office tells you know meet me at your office at a certain time and he takes him he says get a radio and they go in the the the supply closet he said and he turned the radio up and he gave him the thing and said i was told to give this to you take it with a grain of salt and he said as far as he knew paul never said anything about it and he just put it in his in his safe at work so he did this with paul paul took it didn't say anything about it but it certainly affected his mindset and his thinking it's like oh my God, I'm important.

51:46They're paying attention to me. I'm getting the secret information. What happened was his family got worried about him. They're like, geez, you know, he's not doing his work. He's staying up all the time. He's chain smoking. Like he'd smoke a whole pack of cigarettes over lunch while Bill talked to him. He's like, Paul, it's like, yeah, you know, everybody was telling him to calm down while knowing what was causing, what was going on. They're like, you know, Dodie said he even told him. Yeah. But he couldn't. he couldn't control you know i don't know if you've ever been in a paranoid state where just everything makes sense everything that is arrayed against you every conversation you hear william burroughs talks about this it's a great lecture he talked about this but yeah i think um in ufo world you can get into this sort of solipsistic mindset where you oh this is all an illusion or whatever if there are other beings and i'm in community it becomes this you're living in the Da Vinci code or something.

52:43Yeah, exactly. And he, and he couldn't get out of that loop and his family's just like, Oh my God. So they actually put him in a mental health facility for like a month or so. Cause there's these, I've heard people still say, he died in a mental institution or he killed himself. It's like, no, his family was worried about him. They put him in a minute like a mental health facility for like a month or two till he calmed down. And when he came out of it, he was still interested in the stuff, but it wasn't running his life. That's good. And then I think he realized probably from talking to his family and maybe even bill like just you know if you want don't want to go to an early grave please relax yep and dodie then comes out and admits i befriended paul that was tasked to do that uh and i sent him down the wrong path and i would continuously feed him passage material passage material is classic kind of spook you know i don't know if he did or not but i wouldn't put it past him i don't I don't know if Bill was privy to that or anybody I talked to was a Doty didn't tell me that maybe because he didn't want to say that.

53:47I just mean passage material, not in terms of documentation. I just mean like wrong information. Oh yeah. I mean, he could have done that anytime. Paul said, like I said before, Paul would say, this is happening. Don't everything. Yeah. You know what? I have indication that that's happening. Maybe you should check it out. Right. I mean, that kind of thing. And it just kind of builds on itself. Yeah. And, and John Lear, who's obviously implicated in the Bob Lazar story. and sort of, you know, says all sorts of insane things around this. Yeah, he worked for Air America and all this stuff. So I think John Lear was like Benowitz Part Two because he communicated with Benowitz after this.

54:19Right. So, yeah, that's the interesting thing is in some ways, John Lear seems like he was fed maybe a ton of disinformation, but he also meets with Benowitz. Are you familiar with this? Yes. Did you know that? Yeah. And then Benowitz. Multiple times until Benowitz got mad at him and said he didn't want to talk to him. Right. Yeah. I can't remember what the breakup was about, but yeah, Benowitz. He met with Benowitz a few times and just like asked him questions. Do you think John Lear was subject to the same disinfo as Benowitz or do you think he was tasked with? Both. Okay. Not because I could sit here and say that's what happened, but the indications to me is from his actions.

54:58And what he, you know, what I was told that when I was told he was met with Benowitz and how Benowitz reacted to him. and also the fact that I think somebody asked Lear at one point about something about, God, I wish I knew exactly what it was. I know who told me, so I can ask them. But he said, well, John, what about all this stuff up at the underground base, up at Archuleta Mesa and the Hickory Apache and this big firefight and all that? And I don't know if it was that story, but Lear said, oh, yeah, I made that up. He actually said this. He literally says I made that up. To in confidence or at least privately to this one guy right before one of those first congressional hearings about UFO stuff in the, I think it was the early 90s or something like that.

55:45It might have been one of the ones that Greer set up. I'm not sure. Yeah. But yeah, I mean, Lear admitted this. And because of his, you know, previous background flying for Air America, which he touted a lot saying I was one of the, you know, he's got an intelligence background. Yeah, CIA cargo pilot. Yeah. So he, you know, he very well may have been tasked to check up on Benowitz and feed him more stuff after the fact. But you're giving Jalen Hynek the benefit of the doubt. And only because what I know of him is that if he knew that's what it was, I don't think he'd have done it. I'm not so sure.

56:23Well, I don't know. I don't have a ton of reason to believe that. It's just a guess. That my only, you know, I think of that, you know, documentary UFOs, Past, Present and Future. Emanegger's? Yes. Robert Emanegger and Rod Serling's doing the, you know, narration. I interviewed Bob a couple of times on my show. Interesting. Yeah. I'd love to talk to him. He's a cool guy. I liked him. Seems like a cool guy. Well, he it seems like he was maybe one of the first examples of this, you know, using UFOs as a strategy to sort of lure people in because he is in communications with Norton Air Force Base.

56:57And I believe he goes there and everybody there is talking to him about UFOs and they're telling him that they are going to give him, you know, the Hallam and Land. The Hallam and Land. Exactly. Al Magordo earlier, I think in the in the in the 60s. and so he gets all excited and they say they're going to give him footage and they keep saying they're going to give him footage they're going to give him footage and then the footage never really appears and he's he's actually he is shown a little he says i think he was or his um what his like one of his partners bob shardle or think something uh saw it yeah alan sandler another guy what did you see on the film was it color was it black and white was it black and white It was black and white.

57:39It was when I saw you. It would have been a black and white friend. But it was nothing other than what we said in the book. We see this thing, this round thing. And it wasn't that stable, funny part. And it landed, and the door opened. And guys come up looking like they were outer space guys. Yeah, it was Sandler. One of them actually said they saw it. I think even Emenager says he saw it briefly or something. And then you have this video that ends up. You have mostly like this animation rendition. in UFOs past, present, and future that they have to do because they don't have the real footage.

58:10But there's also a little bit of footage, and that footage has now been debunked as an F-4. And the F-4 came out, I think, in like 59 or something. So it was like, it was probably not well-known at the time. And it was definitely flying around Holloman. And so I almost feel like the first kind of Rorschach test, you know uh throwing people off the trail was that documentary and jay allen heineck is obviously a big part of the documentary so yeah was jay allen allen heineck used in that documentary as well i don't know because he was through this whole thing he was still getting a check from the air force that's what i'm saying that's what i'm saying so i don't know but yeah does that mean you know what you're doing does that mean somebody tells you everything that's going on when you're getting a check i don't know but one other data point about jay allen heineck is uh you know Jacques Vallée was like his kind of understudy, his assistant.

59:03Jacques Vallée finds this pentacle memo in the Blue Book files. Yeah. And he goes to Jalen Heineck and he's like, what the fuck? Because the pentacle memo is like this whole, you know, Battelle Memorial Institute secret UFO research program that is looking at, you know, these hot aerial hotspots, presumably around nuclear, if you look at what was happening at the time. And Jalen Heineck is like, wait, what's going on? Like you're not allowed to, apparently you weren't allowed to mention the pentacle. You know, uh, this is written by a guy named Howard C. Cross. You, you weren't allowed to mention that program in the Robertson memo or Robertson panel, which creates a Robertson memo, which is basically the constitution of blue book.

59:44It creates the mandate for blue book to kind of explain away and rationalize, you know, this stuff. And, and then Jalen, or Valet comes out saying, you know, I was convinced that, uh, Jalen hynick actually you know didn't know about the pentacle memo and this other thing but like i don't know there are all these cases where jalen hynick has to like play dumb and i'm like i don't know dude i think he might have known a thing or two because he seems like a smart guy yeah so oh no i don't think he was dumb but not being told something doesn't mean you're dumb it just means you don't know it no i know but it's like you know maybe three times where he could be complicit yeah and oh yeah and i'm like how many other times you know those are just three times that i'm pretty sure he showed up with the...

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1:01:27The crux is, does he, did he know what was on the computer? Did he know, what did, when did, what did he know? And when did he know it? So I don't know. There's no way to find that out. I tried to ask, uh, Q foes when I was writing the book, do you have any, any correspondence with Heineck during this time? And they said they'd helped me like three times. I never responded. They probably just thought I was a crazy person. Yeah. Well, far be it from I to try to off, you know, a UFO legend in Jalen Hyde. Like he's, he's definitely contributed. I don't know. I'm going to err on the, on the side of like what I'd like to think, which is basically my whole MO because unless something convinces me that something's one way, I'm going to, I'm going to think the thing that makes me feel better until I get contributing.

1:02:11Because you know, if I don't, because if I don't, I go down the paranoid path. Yeah, but I view the thrust of your work as inconvenient truths that you are laying out before people. And I like that. I mean, that's an interesting way. I checked up on the stuff myself. That's why I believe it. If I hadn't checked up on it, if I hadn't written project beta, Yeah, I would probably doubt it more. I, but because you know, I, I didn't experience, I wouldn't be an experience. What I experienced to talk to the people I talked to. Yes. I don't know if I was lied to with Dodie. I know was lied to a few times.

1:02:43So like 95 % or more, 97 % of what we told, he told me is not in the book. Cause there's no way to tell. and the stuff where I just got it from him and it was relevant to the story. I said, Doty's the only person that told me this. One other interesting data point is in 1982, Rick Doty gets in touch with another UFO researcher, Linda Moulton Howe, and she's shown a bunch of documents around presidential knowledge of UFOs and aliens, as well as Project Garnett, which involves accelerated evolution of humanity with alien intervention. Is that right? That I don't remember. okay see a lot of stuff i wrote about yeah more stuff has come out since then some of which is accurate some of which isn't yeah and you may very well be right i do not know what was in those documents i thought it had something to do partially with some of the cattle millilation stuff she was doing but it was a bunch of different yeah no well i believe it had both but um this is based partially she was very excited i actually talked to tom adams uh-huh i think afterwards who was a cattle mule relation researcher and she went up and visited them right the like a couple days after that and she was like over the moon she's like oh my god i saw all this great stuff it's so important right so she she she took the bait at the time i don't know what she thinks about it now yeah well she was later um interviewed in a documentary and she was like i just don't want you to paint this that the whole ufo thing is bs i was tricked in this one instance but the idea that ufos are a cover for just prosaic technology is totally wrong in fact it's the opposite prosaic technology is often used as a cover for ufo it's an interesting discussion yeah um it's probably both in fact it's demonstrably both well there you go yeah sort of you know but that's yeah it's separate from the ufo issue itself which you know people think that after i wrote that book you think it's all like military it's like no yeah there's There's no way that the entire UFO phenomenon is military or intelligence connected.

1:04:49It's just used. Some of the UFO stuff is genuinely anomalous. And by genuinely anomalous, I mean not explained by prosaic atmospheric conditions. Oh, definitely. And not explained by military tech, advanced military tech. Definitely. Yeah. I mean, there's so many hundreds of thousands of things that have no connection with military anything. I agree with that, too. And I find it frustrating that this case that you write about so well needs to be contended with as a modality of how UFOs are used from a counterintelligence perspective. And you need to have those sets of goggles on when viewing everything in the UFO world.

1:05:30But you can't throw the baby out with the bathwater. In some ways, that's maybe even the goal. You're losing if you think the whole thing is fake. Yeah, well, there's that belief thing again. if you believe something so strongly that's all you're ever going to see and so there's people there's all kinds of opinions about it whatever people's beliefs are but um the the project beta i mean i i wrote it because well because i made the proposal and the publisher said let's do this one yeah you know um patrick weege and and simon and schuster said let's do this one i said okay

1:06:09but so many different weird accusations I've had about it's like oh you're cooperating with the government it's like yeah no I was trying to tell a story that's like saying that some that's like saying that Vincent Bugliosi cooperated with Manson he's just writing a story about it yeah a very opinionated but that's a weird analogy because I think Bugliosi who's the lead prosecutor to the case yeah and wrote helter skelter okay okay gerardo rivera was was was uh cooperating with manson there you go okay they had that weird interview on that's fine on tv because the bugliosi thing like if you read like chaos by tom o 'neill you kind of are like bugliosi had some ulterior motive oh yeah the whole thing oh he wrote it did he write a he wrote a book about the kennedy assassination that said that oswald did it and there's no way around that and that's right yeah so for your sake i want i just want you to be okay no ulterior motives yeah for you yeah no not for me okay what am i saying it's if you report on anything it means that you agree with it or disagree that it's like no i don't agree or disagree with what i put in the book i think i think a lot of stuff that happened was absolutely morally wrong and shouldn't happen yeah of course you're documented but i'm not going to put that in the book or say anything about it i've had people like at convention when i first started doing this and lecturing about it like why don't you tell you know why didn't you just say how wrong it was it's like what am i supposed to do tell you what you're what i was moral and is not yeah i think you got a better sense of what's right and wrong than you know i would give you i i could uh that i would be assuming it's also i didn't i mean i'm just you should know as much of the facts as you can and you make up your own decisions based on that i think you're also in ufo world you're kind of setting yourself up for failure if you polemicize everything because you're setting yourself up as the arbiter of right and wrong and truth and untruth and then you're going to get stuff wrong you're dealing with the most speculative stuff so there were times where i've been tempted to make videos like the most steel manning i've done are like you know it's like i did this piece on harold malmgren and i'm probably going to come up with like a rebuttal on you know oh yeah because there There was that big D.D.

1:08:15Johnson thing about it, which I'm happy to address now. I think it's excruciatingly obvious that Harold Malmgren was CIA. Yeah. And, you know, he says my agency a bunch of times and his daughter goes the State Department. And he's holding Paul Mellon's walking stick, which he didn't buy at a yard sale. Yeah. And, you know, so Paul Mellon is one of the founders of the CIA. He says Tom Farmer is his best friend, the general counsel of the CIA. Yeah. He's this like spooky trade representative in all these cases. He was helping formulate the presidential daily briefing. Yeah. So the guy was CIA. A lot of debunking is based on the most likely thing, especially with UFOs.

1:08:58Let's the most likely thing is a prosaic explanation. So that's the explanation. And we're going to do anything we can. Well, you literally work yourself towards that prosaic explanation, because that that's that you work from a point of view rather than. well i've seen which ufo people are completely guilty i've seen his diary i don't think it's a fake diary and richard bissell is all over it richard bissell's the founder of area 51 and the guy who he claimed to get briefed on other world technologies from and he's you know even uh d. dean johnson admits that he's in his phone book or whatever so there's connectivity there he says in a 2024 interview before me i was at the ida but that was a cover for my real work for the joint chiefs in the pentagon yeah so all i'm saying is we everybody in the audience believes that you know probably the cia killed jfk and if you really connect the dots who who called the shots there was alan dulles at the brown brothers harriman so you're talking about this time where you can't just do a foia from the fbi no and know that if the person who you know uh got their queue clearance through the cia you you have no idea if they have their queue clearance it's ridiculous So I just think that plus like a few anecdotes about, you know, certain people not being aware of him or whatever is insane as a sort of like a whole debunk.

1:10:16And then there are a lot of what I know of it. It sounds like the he did. I think he and a few other people try it. No, it wasn't him, but the Travis Walton case. Yeah. And they're and they talk about this fire tower. And it's like it was right next to the road. It's like, no, it's not. It's over a hill. You think they're so stupid. They don't know what a fire tower is. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, just stuff like that. Not, I'm not saying the whole story is true because of that. I'm not either. The debunk is so ridiculous on the face of it. Yes. I got, I, one of my friends stopped talking to me cause I said, get better evidence if you're going to do.

1:10:46No, it's true. Like I, I actually, I like debunks. I like skepticism. It's, it's not like a, Oh, I don't, I don't not want to see a debunk. No, I want to see a good, well done one, which takes as much as you know, not everything, but takes as much into account as you can and answers all the different data. I agree. No, it's like Kendrick and Drake, you know, dis disses back and forth, except it's great if you do the debunk and then I'll do the debunk of the debunk and we'll get better and we'll get to the truth. And if you win, fantastic, because we're getting close to the truth. So I think it's all it's all good and it's all love.

1:11:22But yeah, it's a it's not a good debunk in this case. It's just not. and then there are issues with the you know Bluegill Triple Prime I think according to Jeffrey Cruikshank who I'm in touch with who's analyzed this stuff really deeply apparently Johnson's actually kind of really scared he realized he got a lot wrong when it came to that the booster trajectory could not have you know it wasn't at all near the plume right and then it's funny you have disagreements between the debunkers now where my buddy Merrick von Randenkamp who I think is is great but I think he's wrong in this case said it was the instrumentation pod and Dedean Johnson's like, no, it's not the instrumentation pod.

1:11:59It's the booster. And then Jeff Cruikshank shows that it's not the booster or the instrumentation pod. Yeah. So I think they're sort of running on the thing like a dog with a bone until, you know, it's until it's obvious that it's, they don't have it anymore. That's right. So anyways, all of that's to say I could be wrong. I am not, you know, I am not the arbiter of truth. I'm covering things. I do feel a little more inclined to defend a guy who just died, who's 89 years old, who to me, you know, this is probably the softest, most qualitative point I'll make, but just pattern matches to a great statesman who really helped the U S in an earnest way over decades and was kind of a quiet operator.

1:12:39Uh, so, uh, that's, that's all I'll say on that. But yeah, no, I see an analogy of how I feel about Bill Moore. It's like, I know him, I know his motivations. I know his political stance. I know his moral code and all of it fits with what he said yeah yeah and it also fits with how how upset he gets with people that get it all wrong and then haven't been through it well i empathize for that with that or sympathize i you know and i'll even say this now i i would bet that or i'm a horrible dupe no for sure well i i would say i'll bet i would bet that in the future i will have to retract a thing that i cover of course i mean you are dealing with the most speculative topic on the planet i mean i have to if you you know so it's like i i will get to be willing to be wrong i guarantee i will get stuff wrong that's the only guarantee and then like if i get stuff right then it's like the most important stuff ever because it's like so uncorrelated with the consensus reality yeah that you know you're contributing in this exciting way so i i think that's the way you have to view everything you can't take yourself too seriously and attach your ego to any of this yeah that's the problem i mean it's really hard to detach your ego from whatever opinion or research you've done so um getting back to the cord story so so so rick dodie then comes out after this whole saga and he says that i am now on the side of the truth and you see him on you know ufo twitter or whatever and you see him you know getting interviewed on gaia and you know saying we have this many alien races and these were these crashes that really happened they see these extraterrestrials, these four and a half foot tall, gray colored entities.

1:14:18He even recently said that Lou Elizondo was part of Space Force disinformation or something. And so he's going after some of the other, you know, whistleblowers in UFO world. What's up with Rick Doty now? And is he at all trustworthy? The first chapter of that book that I gave you, it defies language. the title of the chapter is You Play the Game or You Get Nothing. And I believe, and what that means is you can be paranoid that somebody's going to tell you BS or disinfo or lead you down a path or whatever. But if you're not in the game playing, if you're not sitting at the table playing cards with people that are just handing you bad cards all the time and occasionally a nice one, you'll never get anything.

1:15:09so and i think that applies to doty maybe a little less now than it used to because i think less of what he says is either true relevant or whatever and i think that's mainly because he likes messing with people um that's his personality he's basically he's you know he's a troll he likes it he likes messing i mean as far as i can tell he probably won't want to talk to me again after this he he made he made a statement a few years ago he never wanted to talk to me again wow because i said something about the serpo thing where apparently there was some exchange with some other planet and some other star system yeah this is a document leak uh um it was more like an info leak that was coming through a couple sources on the internet uh-huh and it involves like um hydrogen isotopes or something and exotic propulsion and some spooky science and that i'm not sure of all i remember was it was basically was like the the last scene in Close Encounters where a bunch of people from the Earth go to another planet and then some of the aliens come here.

1:16:10So the Serpo thing was Planet Serpo sent a bunch of aliens here and we sent a bunch of humans to their star system in an exchange in the 1970s. Do you think do you think any of this is have you heard of Cicada 3301? No. It's okay so it's this weird like online scavenger hunt puzzle that involved complex mathematics that was presented in 24 14 and I'm going to screw up some of the details, but like very high level, I think it involved like you had to solve it. You needed a serious math, you know, aptitude. Yeah. And a lot of people think that the whole puzzle was set up by the NSA or CIA and it was like a recruitment tool.

1:16:53Do you think some of this stuff that's coming out through Doty or other people is some sort of initiation path? Or do you think it is all passage material to catch bad actors or Rorschach test to test people's belief structures? Or what do you think the purposes are? I don't think it's so much that anymore. It's more like when I first saw that article in 2017, the New York Times article, the Cain Blumenthal thing with Elizondo in it, the first thing I thought was, what new project are they trying to ingrain within the, trying to, what's it called, mix with the UFO subject, and for what purpose?

1:17:40So I didn't think it was a purpose like... Do you have a top candidate for what that project might be? And do you think that the 2017 article was sort of of the same variety as whatever happened to Benowitz? No, I don't think it was a Benowitz thing because we live in a different time where information is disseminated in a completely different way than it was then. But do you think those, you don't think those three videos that came out? I don't think they were faked. I'm pretty sure they weren't faked. Okay. But I think, you know, Rorschach blot again. Swiss Army knife again. Get something that everybody's interested in.

1:18:19There's a lot of emotion around it. There's no real idea about what it might be. and then use it for whatever you need to use it for either to deflect or direct attention and i think and this is just me being dumb um at the time and i think still although in the last few months it's probably messed up now i think there was a cold war going on with china and they're just trying to keep it from going hot i have a friend that lives near los alamos this friend told me you want a job and i said what she said los alamos is hiring i said i don't i don't have any of those skills it was a woman she said you can you can you can write english competently can't you it's like yeah you edit video they need those people i said why why does los alamos need those people she said there's a huge nuclear arms race going on right now and they're building bombs like mad um and uh and i just thought it sort of coincided with what all this big buildup with the, and I don't know if it's directly related, but I think the UFO subject right now is being used as a, as a fulcrum to figure out what people think, where people's attention can be drawn.

1:19:37I mean, it's just, I see it as this giant, like social experiment saying, you know, how can we use this to our advantage? Right. And on top of that, there's a technology advantage. There's a advantage where you have some technology that might look like that and that can be you know attention to be directed towards or away from that and you know i know that sounds vague but i'm not privy to that information i mean you probably had other people on here that probably know a lot more than i do about that but my suspicion is that it's being used for political gamesmanship covering up defense tech black projects all that stuff Well, it's definitely being allowed to be amplified at the very least.

1:20:22And I look at some of the people. And I think it's metastasized and that it's all over the place now because somebody probably thought, let's just do this little thing. And now it's because I guess the time has come and it's become this big thing. The other thing I think, and I won't interrupt you, but the other thing I think is it is crowdsourcing expertise around the subject. So people with people with this with the training and the equipment and the motivation, but were scared to before are going to concentrate on the UFO subject and and put some expertise to bear on it, which was was discouraged in the past.

1:21:00It was, you know, now that stigma has been lifted. I think that's right. Like I think about this. So that's a good that's a good thing. That's a total good thing. I also think like one of the things that I got interested in through the UFO subject, but in some ways, you know, is the most out of left field and uncorrelated with kind of consensus UFOlogy, like really came out of left field was the Townsend Brown stuff around like, you know, grab. This episode is brought to you by PayPal. You know how a mom's bag has everything? Sunscreen. Snacks. A stapler. The new PayPal app is like that, but for your money.

1:21:38Shop, pay, manage your account, and earn rewards all in one place. And with purchase protection on eligible items, biometric security, and pass keys, you're protected at every step. Download the new PayPal app to get started. See paypal.com slash protection terms. Have any manipulation experiments? Oh yeah, he said that he was really impressed with your, like, digging into that Townsend Brown stuff. You know Bill Moore interviewed T. Townsend Brown? I that's why I want to talk to him because I know he did. And I made that movie, The Cosmic Conspiracy, about I may have his notes from that. I'll look for them for you.

1:22:11Thank you, man. That means a lot. Yeah, I appreciate that. So but with the Brown stuff, it's people don't know who he is. Well, I'm also I'm convinced that, you know, I've I've signaled to no end that like if I am doing anything that like seriously hurts, like American national security or like, you know, get, you know. then like i i want to know yeah but nobody nobody said anything so it's like it's just like you know sort of empty on the other end so at that point somebody i imagine has made a call on high that like we're gonna allow some of that stuff to come out too even though you know completely organically looked into it and kind of i think corroborated a lot of his stuff yeah and somebody probably made a call that like you know i'm not like extremely well versed in like some of the high level theoretical physics around it that at least saying this guy created this topological physics effect you know we're probably past the point of like that being okay you know not okay the byfield brown byfield brown effect yeah so i you could be right that like there are these like surprising but adjacent things that ufos give you a framework for yeah that like you know well maybe whoever in the navy or whatever was hoping for that yeah they want like energy unlocks and they want more surface area even if we don't know what ufos are it's going to push bud hopkins of all you have a whole secret science kind of initiation having a recording of him from 1987 or something i videotaped him for a documentary and he said ufology or ufos are are dragging us kicking and screaming into the science of the 21st century and it's kind of happening now i agree well john mack would talk about you know head of the harvard psychiatry department of friends with bud hopkins yeah um you know who would see all these you know abductees he would talk about how ufos would inspire tech because it would look like like you had the airships of the 1890s or whatever it would look like tech that was just about to come out and um you know bill lear is quoted in 1956 you know he was the father of john lear and invented the first you know yeah lear jet first private jet basically and he said you know i believe anti-gravity is possible because ufos display them and so i that to me is just this really important thing where it's like kind of a chapter on anti-gravity and project beta actually ah yeah that's right about that uh memo from the british whatever society of of gravity research or something and it was released some of the this copy i saw was stamped Wright-Patterson Air Force Base on it.

1:24:50There you go. And it missed about like five pages. Like there's this big legend about the missing five pages. Where it's like it was achieved in the mid-century in and then it cuts off and then it like. Well, we know that Wright-Airfield was sponsoring the Chapel Hill Conference in 1957 at University of North Carolina with the top theoretical physicists in the world. And at the same time, UNC Chapel Hill was sponsoring Townsend Brown's work on anti-gravity. We know that Wright Airfield had a dedicated team of people working on antigravity, which included Lewis Witten, father of Ed Witten, who was at Martin Corporation's RAS, their antigravity division.

1:25:29And he says in an interview live that we have tape of, he goes, I was hired to do gravity by Wright Airfield. And that's what I did. The reason there was a laboratory at Wrightfield was to find out what we were doing and to help us do it. And I got a contract from Wright Field to do it, to do gravity, which I did very happily. And you have Josh Goldberg, who's a PhD from Syracuse, who's a top physicist, also working on the theoretical underpinnings of anti-gravity. Yeah. So we know that this stuff was extremely in vogue in the 50s. And who knows? It may have been done or partially done. I have a friend that was in the Air Force, and he said that when the stealth fighter lands, people go in and pull panels out of it and put them in briefcases and go away.

1:26:21And he said the rumor was that some of those were anti-gravity just to help it fly in a different way. Not totally anti-gravity, but to help the avionics. Yep. That's a rumor. That is possible. I go back and forth on that with like the B2 for example where I don't see a ton of hard evidence that the Paul Leveola No there never is but maybe that rumor was given to me just to see who would talk about it Yeah I think that's right Where that would come from It's just one of those things where you pour dye down like 50 pipes and you see where the dye comes out you know Yeah well I track the Brown stuff pretty closely and I think his work did make it into the B2 but the part of the aspect of his work that made it into the B2 is electric fields and their ability to manage airflow over an airframe and confer a tactical advantage when it comes to reducing uh the lifted drag ratio right okay so that's all i've ever found on a really first principles level and then there's a bunch of yeah that might be it that might have been what the guy was talking about i think so but maybe it's mixed in with the brown legend because of that yeah well i i i know that i'm pretty sure 95 that brown stuff made it into the b2 bomber in fact floyd odlem who is the majority owner of northrop who funded brown's work in the 60s paid brown 4 000 bucks or i don't remember 2 000 bucks 4 000 bucks a month and his family uh the same amount uh until until he died yeah uh until the 80s yeah so i mean that to me catalina or whatever yeah exactly good good memory um yeah so i don't know it's fascinating Yeah, UFOs really are, you've made this analogy to me on the phone before.

1:27:58It's like if you have a bunch of pipes, and the pipes represent possible leaks in intelligence, you pour some dye in the pipes, and you see where the dye goes. And UFOs, I think, are used as a tactic for that, where it's like, you sprinkle in a UFO here, that shouldn't be there. Or a rumor about a UFO, or some case, or whatever, and you see it's like, don't talk about this, and you see who talks about it. You see who, yeah, exactly, and then you see who's trustworthy. It's funny, a long time ago while I was working on this book and before that from knowing Bill, if somebody tells you don't talk about this, I always think it's a test.

1:28:31Me too. I always think. And that's happened to me before. It's happened to me on a thing that was later debunked publicly. Yeah. And I was like, I know what you're doing. I know you're telling me this because you want to see if I'm going to leak it. I was showing stuff about the Tic Tac incident and pilots whose names hadn't been released yet. I was told don't talk about this. You were, you were. Yeah, and then like six months later, bam, their names are out there. Yeah. And I think whoever told me. So in your case, it was true. Yeah, it was true. So you were given like David Fravor's name before the TikTok incident or something?

1:29:05I think Alex Diedrich and a couple others. Whoa, that's crazy. Yeah. Interesting. And I talked to Alex Diedrich later, but I didn't tell her that. Can you say who gave you that information? There you go. You passed the test to whoever did that. That's wild. Crazy. Interesting. Yeah. Whoa. and it doesn't mean i'm hooked into any like great network or anything but that's you know and it used to be a lot this would happen now about once or twice a year somebody will tell me yeah lynn buchanan who i've known for a long time the army remote viewer yeah he told me like eight or nine years ago that he had met with an alien he said but don't talk about this to anybody he's like why'd you meet with the alien he said well they wanted to see if i could communicate with it because i was one of the remote viewers he said but don't mention i was like all right he said then like five years later he said it online somewhere so i can say it now whoa really yeah so he's still on record claiming that he's met an alien yeah the the remote at least i hope it came up because i saw it later he had mentioned it in somebody's interview or on a podcast or something where did he meet the alien i don't know he didn't tell me it was probably on a base somewhere at least he wanted me to think that wow i don't know lynn really well but he's i interviewed him in like 97 or something so i've kind of he's we've been meeting every once in a while since then and every once in a while he'll he'll that's the only thing he ever told me don't say don't mention it and i said why'd you tell me he said it's for your information wow but there's so many little bits and pieces of information like that that just float around and i think a lot of them are just kind of like throwaways of something that It used to be important, but it isn't anymore.

1:30:44But then they become this lore in the UFO community and then they just stick and they grow. And, you know, it's just, it's, you know, fertile ground for any weird rumor like this to grow. Do you suspect like Diana Pasolka came out with a quote where she was friends with Chris Bledsoe who had all these UFO interactions. I, by the way, I'm not in any of the drama. I love Diana Pasolka and I love Chris Bledsoe. I think they're both great. Yeah, I'm the same way. So, but Diana Pasolka came out and she said, I think Chris Bledsoe is a modern Paul Benowitz. Chris Bledsoe claimed to, you know, have an interaction with this goddess Hathor and see also an alien craft.

1:31:24And a bunch of government people are very interested in him, which is, I think, pretty demonstrably true. No, that is demonstrably true. You know, he'll say like. So kind of the same dynamic, I guess. So do you think it is the same dynamic? Do you think they're just genuine friends or like, what do you think? I think whoever is interested in the subject thinks he may be a key to the answer or part of it. And when that happens, then they just become friendly. I've had this happen, and you probably have too. Somebody comes from the government and tells you something that nobody else knows, or very few people know.

1:31:58And then they say, you know, I'm telling you this for, not, Lynn didn't do this, because we'd known each other for years. but just because they want you, they want to flatter your ego and get your confidence and find things out. Yep. And I'm not saying that, you know, Sam Ivan or whoever the people that are talking to him are like, you know, we're going to get all of his information and throw him down, you know, throw him, throw him out with the trash. No, I think they're genuinely interested and they genuinely think something, some useful information can come from him. And if they're friendly with him, they can get some of this information that could be useful either both for their own personal uh uh quest and and uh knowledge and also for whoever they might be working with or for totally i don't think you know not to say that any of those people all those people are wonderful and moral but yeah but i don't think i don't think you can immediately jump to the conclusion that they are modern rick doughties either i think no no no it's a different you can be in the government and earnestly want disclosure and usually if you're in the government There are caveats to your earnest desire for disclosure that involve national security.

1:33:04But I, yeah, I don't think I don't paint them with all of them with this evil brush. I don't think that's not how the world works. I don't think you can a priori impugn anybody's motives unless they prove to be really, you know, bad actors. Yeah. And if they do and they're working in intelligence, they're not always bad actors. It's always something or other. And that's why I, you know, I think, you know, for my they said, what do you think of Richard Doty? it's like i don't hate him yeah i don't think he's evil i just think he was doing his job and he likes messing with people and that's it also and what he did some of the things he did were morally wrong and he knows it also if we have you know take it face value that we had a remote viewing program for 23 years at the very least we probably have covert remote viewing programs now and take it face value that some of that remote viewing was effective you have a guy in north Carolina who is claiming these like remarkable stories around kind of a miracle healing that he's experienced and you know messages that he's getting involving prophecies if you take the first thing as a real intelligence modality that obviously needs to be corroborated by other intelligence modalities you're going to take seriously this dude in North Carolina yeah um and you're going to be probably very interested in that you've got antenna up and you're correlating all kinds of different information, most of which might be BS.

1:34:27Sure. But the stuff that isn't is worth all the others combing through this stuff. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. The thing I've found too, I don't know if you found this, but sometimes people inside the government are more conspiratorial than people on the outside. They're like, you assume that. Because they've seen it. That's right. They see it all the time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Once you're in this for anything where you get a little glimpse into how some famous person or some you know somebody that's that don't that not too many people know or a government operator when you see what's going on with them just get a little glimpse of it you realize how much what we all see and in the news and all that has already been decided like months or years before and it's not like you know it's not some conspiracy it's just the way the world works yeah yeah you're not for you and i are only privy to a certain amount of information and other people are privy to less and other are more way more and there's and you know it's kind of our our you know you and i are interested in it's like what are those people above us doing what is coming down the road how is that going to affect us what does the past look like because of that what does the future look like because of that who does it affect you know should i be emotional about this is there a moral issue with this i want to know all these things and so i've got antenna up just like these weirdo government people and I've learned things from them too you know just how to operate and how to think and part of that like you said is being a little bit paranoid but only a little bit because I've been a lot paranoid for about a year and I didn't like it that's a lot paranoid's never good um I made this documentary with David Grush uh in September of 2023 after he testified before Congress he said that he you know uh gave over like I think like hundreds of pages, maybe over a thousand pages to the, uh, you know, intelligence community inspector general, uh, you know, experienced reprisals based on his blowing the whistle.

1:36:19And he brought forward 40 people directly to the ICIG who had, you know, worked on this stuff, uh, firsthand. And we're still in this sort of liminal space, even though he did all that, which is kind of crazy. I just wanted to put enough out there, touch on all the most sensitive parts, like the biologic side and like things that really need come out yeah but i'm i don't want to overly disclose because it's not my job i don't know him well i don't even know if i know the details about remember the details about what he was saying except to you know uh shore up that the government is interested in the subject has been for a long time and a lot deeper than we think well the substance of what he said is that we have um non-human bodies pilots right craft we have you know craft in our possession uh that we okay Yeah, now I'm remembering.

1:37:07Yeah, crashes on record. He talks about the Magenta crash, 1933. He even kind of talks about, you know, possible agreements, I believe, in the Ross Coulthard interview. And then he says he has all these firsthand witnesses. And again, like I know him to have a very eidetic sort of memory and to be a very, you know, intense kind of, you know, as mild autism, you know, researcher. So yeah, he does, uh, you know, definitely not fit the pattern of some of these other really slick and smooth, savvy guys. Uh, so it's interesting. Um, yeah, well, the, the mistake I think people make with Grush and other people is that they want to know if they're telling the truth or not.

1:37:53It's like, that's not the question. i think the question is is what they're saying relevant and um can connections be made with what they say to other things that things have been said and also documentation if you can get it it's just kind of this it's a i keep using the word concatenation but it's a kick hat nation of all this stuff together and when somebody says well i think that person's lying it's like why because he said this it's like he said like 500 things yeah so you're saying everything you said is a lie based on this one thing you think is a lie or have you proven as a lie or is wrong or inaccurate that's not how the world works no it's especially not how the ufo world works yeah i think it's tough being in that whistleblower position because the more you say the more surface area exists on you know what yeah the more falsifiable everything there's more ways for people to get their hooks and pull you apart yeah and and it's gonna happen it's not like you're commenting on you're not like a sports commentator on espn people are like this is the truth and if you say one wrong thing yeah well that's different because i i always had that analogy people i look at that analogy people made if this was brought into a court of law then you know it'd be proved it's like no it wouldn't because we know about murders and and robberies and stuff this is dealing with something we can't bring in a lab and prove and not many people had experience with so So it's a whole different thing.

1:39:19And it's throwing all these different definitions we have, and I hate the word ontology, but throwing everybody's ontology into question. It's like, how much of this are you gonna let into your life? How much of this is relevant to you? Is it just like talking about movies and TV shows or something, or does this mean more? I think it means way more. But I also don't know how much of this stuff, much more of it is gonna come out, because I think that every time the government says, hey let's look at ufos for a while when the usefulness of looking at it and having it in the public is gone bam it's gone and then suddenly everybody's like well what you were just going to tell us what it was and this has been the longest and the strongest i've ever seen it go on and so i don't know what the end game is but i have a really strong feeling that as soon as what whoever gets what they need to get or it's not useful anymore yeah that faucet's going to be turned off.

1:40:13I hope I'm wrong. Yeah. Because I'd like to see something, although the disclosure thing still kind of irritates because my one quote about it, and I keep saying it and I've been saying it for years, disclosures, like asking the parent that always lies to you to tell you this truth, the truth, just this one time. And if they don't tell you what you want to hear, they're lying. I love that. Well, there are two vectors though. There's like, is the government ever going to like, let some of this stuff ultimately out in the way of like showing you a craft and what do they know and what do they actually know like do they actually know anything as far as like some metaphysical worldview that it's super concrete as opposed to you know maybe not maybe it's yeah i mean it's it's too too much to admit it because it's not explainable in terms that people would understand so what's the point and it's much more useful the way it is now which is that that swiss army knife that i was talking about yeah but i do think so there are two different vectors is the government vector i do think if we just followed up on some of david grush's you know face value claims that would be like really exciting if we could like corroborate you know some of those um and it's crazy that it still exists in this liminal kind of kind of kind of space the ufo exists in a liminal space so it drags everything else along with it right right right right right i mean that's the model it's coming from so it's going to be fighting that the whole time yeah right sure prove this liminality to me break you know um uh uh collapse the waveform i don't know if that's gonna happen well that yeah i mean then you're getting into deeper stuff which is so there's a government vector and then there's like a belief consensus reality vector and like most people believe there's aliens and exist and ufos are real most people believe that yeah no it's like probably over 50 percent of america so if there's some other like version of reality that is egregoric in nature where like you are literally uh you're going to create the manifesting things in your purview then the amount of momentum that i see now has to turn into something and i don't know what that turns into i don't know either i like that whitley streber quote where he said the government was keeping it secret because if enough people believed in it would allow it in fascinating i think he said that in um um um Communion?

1:42:29No, it wasn't in Communion. It was in his Majestic. It was his semi-fictional account of the Roswell crash and everything after it. Right, right, right. Really good. A lot of metaphors in there, which are still relevant, and I still go back to. I love it. Well, I'll check that out. Have you had Whitley on? I have. Yeah? Yeah, it was great. He's always a good interview. And people, I was at Contact. I got to get up on, I got to speak at Contact. I wasn't scheduled. Amazing. But I got up on stage because Dean Alioto showed his film Alien Perspective. And one of the first things I said when they asked me for a statement, I said, and I've said this before, you know why I believe, people say, do you believe Whitley Strieber?

1:43:13I said, I believe him in the way I believe, you know, the Beatles or the Foo Fighters or Van Gogh or, you know, Jackson Pollock. He's a great artist. He's a great artist telling you the truth of how he sees something that has affected him. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I think that's the case of, you know, when it comes to a lot of experiences. And then people say, well, then he just made it up. It's like, no, art doesn't come from nothing. It comes from the artist's feelings, his or her life experience, everything. And the way Whitley's explaining to us is the way an artist would explain the abduction phenomenon to us.

1:43:48And it's in a way that nobody else talks about it like he does. And I've enjoyed it from the beginning. Well, that's a beautiful note to end on. Greg Bishop, thank you so much for coming on. Thank you for your work. Everybody go out and buy Project Beta as well as It Defies Language. And, yeah, thank you, man. Thanks a lot. All right.

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