“I Spent 3 Years With Tall White Aliens At Area 51" -UFO Whistleblower Charles Hall

32:52Why is it that the first time, as a matter of record, that anyone climbed it was 1970? You say, well, we did Mount Everest before that, right? Well, it sounds like protecting sheep with anti-aircraft technology, the most advanced at the time. Yeah, it seems like if you'd fire a few live rounds, wouldn't you kind of scare them a little bit, right? So based on your rule, if it's like, you know, fool me once, okay, fool me twice, fine, fool me three times, you know, that's sort of a, you know, that's not a coincidence anymore. What's the second time? Is there a second time before Area 51, which gets set up in the 50s, that suspicious military or covert activity occurs in the region that might have to do with the ET presence?

33:46Well, remember how good their technology is, the technology of the whites and the technology of the grays. And I do not exaggerate. I speak from direct experience. when you say if they came here in the ice age and in order to and they're plant eaters and in order for to get a little help with harvesting grain and doing manual labor and things like that there's nobody out in nevada where would they get that from remember how good their technology is. And I speak from direct experience. If they wanted to use the scout craft, which is, oh, the tall white scout craft or the gray scout craft, both of which I've personally seen, and in the time I've been talking, if they wanted to, say, lift off from the backyard, and go to the moon and circumnavigate the moon to check up on what's going on in the far side of the moon and return and land in the backyard right here, they would have already done so.

35:08That's how good their technology is. One of the things I personally watched them do from a distance, because if you get too close, the fields will burn you like a microwave, but like from a distance of, say, like two and a half, three miles, was to go onto the scout craft and sit down on the seats, no seat belts or anything, just chairs like this, and power up not the outer coils, but just the bottom and control coils, and lift off until they were floating perhaps as far off the desert or above the sagebrush as the height the camera is, and then take a few seconds, like 30 seconds, to power up completely the outer coils.

36:02It takes a few seconds to do so. When they do so, before they do so, the craft looks the way you're expecting. If you saw a helicopter out there, you'd see the actual metal of the helicopter. But after they've powered up, they just look real fuzzy white, like a Tic Tac, because they're surrounded with force fields. You no longer see the actual metal. You just see the force field and the way it's fuzzing over light and interacting with it. Once they're powered up, they're ready for high-speed maneuvers. Let's get into it. If they choose to go straight down the line of sight, they can go seven miles at an average speed of 8 ,000 to 12 ,000 miles an hour, stop, power down, and set down.

36:53And in the process, they would have taken more than 15 ,000 Gs starting and 15 ,000 Gs stopping, just sitting there in the room like this. And in case you're wondering how much that is, 10 ,000 Gs will liquefy steel. The speed of light is like 86 ,000 miles per hour? 186 ,000. 186 ,000, okay. Miles per second. Miles per second. And they can do. So if they're going 8 ,000 to 10 ,000 miles per hour, there's still a massive difference between that and speed of light. They're not even in low gear. They're not even in low gear. Yeah, not even in low gear. Wow. If they do that and they choose to go sideways, they'll just seem to blink out.

37:42You'll be looking there, and they'll just seem to disappear before your eyes, because they will have accelerated and moved to the side so fast your eyes can't follow. I speak from direct experience. And if you're looking straight up Indian Springs Valley, and they choose to pop over to Dogbone Valley and come down and then come in one of the northern passes to see what you're doing, it'll look like they just blinked out there and magically reappeared over there, thus in a second or two later, in the hands of a skilled pilot. A lot of people who still believe in Einstein will mistakenly say they went to another dimension.

38:25Really, they haven't. If you were in the way, the craft would run into you. There is no such thing as wormholes or warping space and time. What you're warping isn't space and time. You're interacting with other force fields that all matter has. And, you know, the same way that you might have an electric field of different shapes or a magnetic field of different shapes. But time never slows down. Time never runs in reverse. Time is just time. It always goes forward. Have you ever flown in a craft? Yes. Yeah. A couple of times I did. What was that like? Well, I was in the cargo hold at the time because there was, as I describe in my books, the day after I thought I'd broken my kneecap and then it healed up, there was the next morning when they came down to get me and take me up to their base set up at Area 53 to see if I needed a surgery on my knee.

39:29And was it the tall whites? Yeah, and when I got up there, the American generals were there, and medical people were up there too. And I didn't. I just bruised it. But the tall whites had to prove to the Americans that they were telling them they're correct or wanted to prove that. And so they came down and grabbed me and put me in the hold of the cargo shop. And I still remember the trip up there and the trip back. Where did they go? Did you leave? No, they just lifted off and we just went gently up the valley, perhaps 100 feet off the ground. And I remember flying around Range 4s and made the turn around Range 4 and then going up the valley.

40:11They were going to the scout craft, the back entrance to their scout craft hangar. and the door was open, and we went in there, and then there was a whole bunch of them in there, but there were also an American general and some American medical people, and the six sergeants, chief master sergeants, that were the human guards for the human generals, and the teacher in Range 4 Harry, and it was just like sitting here in a chair, only in the cargo hold, and they didn't do it as they didn't totally power up because they didn't have to and it was it was like sitting here in the chair and having the whole room just be lifted up and taken and come back and um it was remarkably unremarkable yeah yeah the the important part was that they thought they'd electronically hypnotize me, but their equipment doesn't work if you're sick or if you're angry or if you're really tired.

41:16And since I was, even though my knee was not broken, I was still experiencing some pain, you know, it was still tender. It meant that the way my thoughts, the blood flow in the brain was, was somewhat different than the way it would normally be. And so therefore, when you use the electronic hypnotism on me, that would normally have worked when I was ordinary, if I was healthy and well-rested, it didn't quite do the job. It's almost like anesthesia that doesn't work during surgery or something. Yeah. You're still awake. Yeah. Speaking of... So I got to remember it. Yeah. Range 4 hearing knew that was the case, but that was all he could do, yeah.

41:59Why do you think they chose you for all of this? Why do you think you were sort of picked to be endowed with this knowledge? One time I asked a different person who was one of the top, identified himself as one of the top three psychiatrists at the CIA. One of the time I asked them why they chose me. Because I said I thought there were lots of men that were better at going out in the desert and surviving and fixing trucks and so on than myself. A lot of weather observers with more experience and so on than me. And he told me the following. He said that, and he had like nine PhDs hanging on the wall for different facets of psychiatry.

42:46And he was a very nice guy. He was surprisingly young, like in his 30s. He said that when he studied psychiatry, he was told that there was 105 different psychological defenses that humans might use. The most famous is whistling in the dark. Okay. He said that most humans only use one or two at the most, that one of the projects that he and the others usually did was trying to train colonels and generals on how to have more psychological defenses. They were hoping to get generals to use three, or they always wanted them to use three. They were hoping they could get them to use four or five. This is of the 105.

43:41And he said that he had told the other guys that were with him, psychiatrists, that there were some generals he was trying to train. He thought he was going to get them to learn seven. and he couldn't. They were going to hang in there at three. He said that the first time he met me, he was shocked because in the first 15 minutes, he saw me use the first 70 out of the 105. And he was certain I could use the remainder of the 105. And you can see it in my books. He said, the 41 men that went out before me, who all came back compromised and some of them burned, he said the problem they had, in his opinion, was that they recognized what they were up against or something of what they were up against before they understood how they were going to react, had decided how they were going to react.

44:48Okay? And he said that, and therefore what happened was, in just the first encounter, their psychological defenses got destroyed. And he said that the reason they sent me, he said if there ever was a person to send, it would be you. He said it's because they'll never lay a glove on you. They'll never, that, you know, that no matter what happens, you know, you have a defense for it. Okay? And they had evaluated that prior to sending you out to commune with the E.T. Yeah. They'll let, they have a, you know, and you can see it in there. And my, there was a time when I thought that the extraterrestrials, the extraterrestrial lady I was looking at, that I was hallucinating.

45:41And I was kind of surprised because I was kind of thinking that if I was going to hallucinate, I was alone out in the desert when I was young and single, that if I was going to hallucinate, that it would be more like a Las Vegas showgirl. And she wasn't, you know? And I thought, my God, how sick am I? I'm not even, you know, see? And she was laughing because she could tell that I was thinking because of her electronic equipment, you see? See, and there was a time when I thought that I must be short on vitamins when they would come into my barracks at Indian Springs. And I would get up and I would see the children playing.

46:22And I thought, golly, I knew I should have drank more milk for supper. I must be short on vitamins and milk. And so I would take more vitamins and they would still keep coming. There was a time when I— You're also debriefing with generals who are admitting that this is a phenomena that they're aware of and that they're kind of working alongside these ETs. Is that right? No, I'm never debriefed. You're never debriefed. I'm never briefed. I'm never debriefed. Are you talking to the generals about— That's not an accident. My orders are, I can never be briefed. I can never be debriefed. And the reason is very simple, because the tall whites, like the teacher, can tell what a person is thinking, even if they're not talking.

47:06Well, if you're debriefed and they're very touchy about their children, if a briefing person were to say, what kind of mother is the teacher? How does she treat her little girl? I mean, she was lost in the sagebrush and you saved your life. How did they let that happen? See, then they wouldn't have to ask me to tell them about it. See, they could tell it by just reading my thoughts. The next thing they would demand is that somebody like that officer be delivered to them out in the desert, and he wouldn't live another moment, okay? Yeah. And I wouldn't have to say anything or do anything or say else, because she could just tell, oh, yeah, I read Charlie and I see that happened.

47:56So when I say that no one could ever ask me questions, I could never be debriefed, nothing I would do would ever be classified. Like no one could. I mean, they couldn't even inspect me. If they wanted to talk to me, they physically had to come out to the parking out of the chow hall at Indian Springs between noon and 1230. And I would meet them there if I felt like meeting them. Or if I didn't, then they would just. And before they went out, they would have to check in with the base commander at Nellis. And when they came back, they had to go directly from checking on base to the base commander and say, yeah, I looked healthy and so on.

48:34And they couldn't come out and inspect my barracks or see anything. You mentioned the CIA psychiatrist who said that you had all these psychological defenses. And that sort of allowed you to enter into relations with the ETs and come back intact. It allowed me to protect my thoughts, the person I am, before admitting to myself, they are real, and I know what I'm going to do. Have you ever heard the name Kit Green? Is that familiar to you at all? It doesn't ring a bell, but I probably heard him. But see, like the first agreement I made with them was after realizing they were real, that I asked them that whenever they came around me, that they talked between themselves.

49:32if they were talking between themselves or with me in a way that I could hear to speak English, because it frightened me if they were talking between themselves, and it sometimes sounded like horse winnings or bird calls. And they agreed. And then the second one was that if I saw them out in the desert, like if I came over a rise and there was one sitting on a rock, I understood that it was easy for me to sneak up on them behind them and surprise them, and I didn't want to do that, I would just stop where I was and stand where I was and sing a song and let them know I was there. And then if they wanted to come closer, I would just stand there and they could walk up towards me and stop whenever they wanted to.

50:23I wouldn't pursue. I wouldn't close the gap. And if they got too close to me so that I started feeling intimidated, I would start backing away and they would stop. And then when we had decided how far apart we were going to be physically, then we could communicate. Your wife, Marie-Therese, mentioned that you actually were sent out initially. Initially, I was supposed to go from after doing my basic training at Lackland. Then I was put in PAT standing. You know, that was airmen waiting their security clearance. Okay. And those airmen that were going to get a security clearance and be sent to San Angels, Texas for security school 101 were supposed to wait there for like three weeks or so.

51:19Okay. Now, the security clearance you're waiting for is whatever the government decides to give you, but it's supposed to be the top secret clearance, okay? Now, the security training, the people who are sent to San Angeles, Texas, are waiting to get their orders to San Angeles, Texas. However, in my case, they issue two sets of orders, the real ones to San Angel's, Texas, and the cover orders to the Weather Training School at Shunut Air Force Base, Illinois. The idea is that the captain who is in charge of those guys, who has a safe for classified material that's locked, this is 1965, times have all changed since then, And he's the one that will give out my orders.

52:16The day sergeant can give out all the rest of the orders. Okay? Yeah. Because my clearance is going to be a higher clearance than theirs. Well, the Friday that they came in, the captain is off playing golf. Now, as a military officer, he's supposed to be on duty. He's off playing golf and left the sergeant in command. The sergeant does not have the clearance to know about my orders. So when the clearance comes, the orders come in for everybody else, and we were all in the same class together at boot camp, I think a mistake has been made. They get their orders. I go in with them. There's no orders.

53:05I say, well, because my cover orders are in a different location than their orders, but they're not locked up, see? They're just in the temporary outbox. Well, I ask the sergeant, I got no orders, and I go into weather school too. So the sergeant goes and gets those orders and says, oh yeah, here's your orders, and hands them to me to go to weather training school. So I go out and I get on the bus. You know, I got my stuff back. Now, my drill sergeant had made a very special point. He said, anytime you do anything in the military, keep two copies of your orders because you can't trust your officers.

53:41Right? Genius, right? I keep two copies, right? Okay. So I get in the bus. I'm not in the travel man, but I got orders. So what? So they throw me on the airplane, and they send me to shoot at Air Force Base, Illinois. If you can't shoot them, shinoot them, that place. Okay. Well, I'm in the base, and everybody else is getting paid, and I'm at weather school, and I'm the best student in the class. And after like six weeks, I still haven't been paid. And so I go and I ask my immediate commander, can I go see I'm not getting paid? He sends me over to the base payroll offices, and they look at their records, and they're panicky.

54:24hey, you're on this base, and they send me back to weather school. I go back to weather school, and two MP air policemen and a dog come in and grab me and march me over to the base commander's office. I'm a little terrified, and the base commander says, Airman Hall, if you have a copy of your orders showing you that you're supposed to be on this base, then you're going to be a happy man, and whoever gave you the orders is not going to be very happy. But if you don't have a copy of the orders, the man who gave them to you is going to be a happy man, and you're not going to be a soldier. You're not going to be a very happy soldier because the generals tell me you're too valuable a man to be wasted at this school.

55:12I had two copies in my hall. I said, thank you, Sergeant Matt, you're Sergeant Peoples. I graced his hand. I said, you need another one. I can copy this, right? I was a happy man. They said, well, we'll decide what to do, right? So they'd been looking for me at San Angels, Texas for six weeks. The FBI had been looking for me at my house in London. Nobody had found me. I go back, and the sergeant comes out and says, you're going to Nellis, okay? Wow. Yeah. They gave me the usual wish list. When you finish weather school, name three places you'd like to go. I said, Germany, England, and March Air Force Base, Los Angeles.

55:56And I said, no, you're going to Nellis. How soon after you're stationed at Nellis do you encounter this abandoned weather station and meet your first tall white? Well, the first time that I heard tell of the tall whites at Nellis was at my very first duty session at Nellis with another airman, which I describe in my book. He was the airman that had been on leave for several weeks because he claimed the Nellis weather station was haunted. And it's not the one you see there today. It was the old one that was the northeast end of the base operations building. The base operations building was a very nice building for its day, as was the weather station.

56:49I describe it in my book. And it had something very important. It was the military version of an airport terminal. And it had something very important. It had clean restrooms. The next clean restroom was a mile away in a group of barracks they were still building. To get to another clean restroom, he had to go a mile and a half away. Okay? He claimed that when he was working NYCHA graveyard, and he had been in its military, he was on his fourth year,

57:29that he thought ghosts, you and I would say, a group of five tall white aliens, had come in off the runway, off the tarmac, unlocking the glass doors between the base operations, the interior of the base operations building the tarmac, because one of the force fields will make every piece of material repel every other piece of material and just pop every lock open. And when he came in, there was one waiting outside, standing guard, one holding the door open, and then that's two men, and then three women, one holding open the door to the bathroom, another one inside, helping them hold open the door to the bathroom, while the third one was using the ladies' restroom, and that they were rotating so that they'd come in to use the restroom.

58:27Although he described them doing that, he didn't appreciate what he was describing. He thought they were ghosts. He panicked immediately and started screaming, locked himself in the doorway and called the base air police, only to discover that the Nellis base commander said, no, the air police cannot come beyond the road junction a mile away. He's on his own. Okay? Now, I know from firsthand experience that he was telling the truth. Because there came a day when I was working graveyard, actually a whole bunch of days, on Sunday night when everything was empty, when that would happen. And the reason that they came is because they're just like us.

59:14The bathroom that was a mile down, which the mechanics down in that hangar, airport hangar, thought was haunted, was occasionally visited by tall white men who had to go to the bathroom. And it was a mess, never cleaned. Okay? And if you're out with two men and three women who wanted a clean bathroom, and the one a mile and a half down was too far and wasn't suitable, and you said, where do we want to go to the bathroom? You'd say, I know just the place. It's the one in the base ops. And on Sunday night, there's nobody around. There's the weather observer, and he's usually sleeping at night like he should.

59:56Okay? He's not supposed to, but usually they did. Actually, that was a great place to sleep. I myself didn't. but I had too much fun reading books and stuff. And the guy that I was, he was my OJT instructor. He also claimed that on a different night when he was in there, that one of them came and peeked at him around the corner and said, don't worry, the women just want to use the restroom. He screamed and called the police again and they wouldn't come. And he had a nervous breakdown. And that happened to me. I said, yeah, don't forget the candy bar machine. You know, you guys may be hungry. And that's what psychological defenses do for you, you see?

1:00:37That's the difference. But that's the first one. He told me the story, but I didn't actually see the tall whites on that night. Then a few nights later, when he had been given an honorable discharge, because the Pentagon insisted that he and I, alone in the warehouse, on Sunday night, alone in the... Thinking about refreshing the carpet in your home? Now's the time to do it. For a limited time at the Home Depot, get 10 % off installed carpet projects on trusted brands like LifeProof, LifeProof with PetProof Technology, Home Decorators Collection, and Traffic Master. Plus, with installation starting at just 49 cents per square foot, upgrading your space is more affordable than ever at the Home Depot.

1:01:23Offer valid September 24th, 2026 through October 4th, 2026. Exclusions apply. For licenses, see homedepot.com slash license numbers. Weather Station together work at least one duty shift, and then he would be given an honorable discharge of Section 8, which he was. Then when I was with my next duty shift, my next OJT instructor, and he was working a double shift, I was working swing shift. When I came left at midnight, and I was trying to hurry to get to the base chow hall, as I was walking back the mile or so to my barracks, one of the new ones being built. When I turned around, following me was the tall white girl, the 12-year-old.

1:02:16And I was about a quarter mile down from the weather station, and back by the white elephant was the teacher and two of Ridgeford Harry and another tall white guard happily watching me from a distance. And all she was doing was just following me, intentionally showing herself. At the time, when you talk about what good her psychological defenses, at the time, I couldn't believe my eyes, even though they matched what the guy had told me just a few days before. I decided that because I was tired, I must be sleepwalking. And I said, well, gee, I thought if you slept, I didn't realize that you could actually walk and see things when you were sleepwalking.

1:03:06And so I turned and I tried to continue walking. I expected to hurry and get to my barracks before I had a brain stroke or something collapsed. And I thought, and I turned around, and after going a few steps, and there she was, she still followed me. And I had been reading a book on the Titanic, which I can talk about later. And in the Titanic, it described a group of angels who came in a craft, one of the lifeboats, and landed on the ledge of one of the icebergs and dropped wreaths for people in the water to use as life preservers, which didn't work. and how one of the angels was good at floating out over the water and dropping her hand.

1:03:54And when I turned around and I was just watching her, she smiled. That girl, she lifted up, turned up the power on her suit, lifted up a little bit further till the top of her feet were about as far off the ground as the top, almost the top of that chair, flew over beside the sidewalk, which was over the grass, and saw and went over the grass a little bit and saw on the grass something that, a piece of wrapper or perhaps a quarter or something that interested her, and with her feet still in the air, lowered her shoulders, reached down on the graph, and picked it up, assuming the very same position that was described in the book on the Titanic that I had previously read, like that night or two nights before, described by the lady in the Survivor of the Lifeboat that was picked up by the Carpathia as described in the book that I was reading.

1:05:06And like she was the very same girl, and considering that the tall whites live 600, 800 years, 10 times longer than we do, she could have been, okay? And when I looked at it, I was stunned, and I still didn't make the association between those people an extraterrestrials. That's what psychological defenses do for you. And I decided that I must just be sleepwalking or there must be something with me mentally. And I went home and I went back to my barracks and life continued. So let's get into the Hall photon theory because, and just to set this up for the audience, also in the 30s, in 1935, Einstein, Rosen, Podolsky come up with their sort of spooky action at a distance, entanglement.

1:06:00And it's known as Einstein's dilemma because Einstein had always kind of almost put a governor on reality. The speed limit of reality is the speed of light. And yet with photons, observably, you see this sort of entanglement effect where optical properties, various optical properties seem to mirror one another at vast distances, just instantaneously. And so how is the Hall photon theory an update on that? And how does that unlock faster-than-light travel in the form of a spacecraft? Well, to begin with, I'd like to thank you for this nice interview. And if I don't forget having us on your podcast, I'd like to congratulate you on just out thinking Einstein.

1:06:46When you say, what's it feel like to be smarter than Albert Einstein? I say, well, I know a guy. It's not just me, because what you say is correct. And the easiest way to see it is starting with the way Einstein did with the Mickelson-Morley experiment of 1897. Yeah. Okay? In 1890, which was a failure. Yes. In 1897, everyone thought that a photon of light had only two force fields, an electric field and a magnetic field, that oscillated together. They ran perpendicular to one another. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. and then they did the Mickelson-Morley experiment, and then they wanted to interpret it as though it were an experiment that you would do with little boats crossing a river and going up and down in the river when they didn't know anything about the photon.

1:07:41They thought they knew everything there was to know about the photon, that there was only two force fields, so they could pretend that they knew everything about how a photon looks like a little boat going across the river. When the experiment failed, then nobody wanted to say there has to be more structure to the photon than what we know about. Nobody wanted to do that, okay? James Clerk Maxwell had done his equations, and they didn't want to say there's more force fields that Maxwell's equations don't include but should. And they oscillate, too. They wanted to say, we know everything there is to know about the photon.

1:08:25And then they wanted to say, and we know everything about the river and the banks and stuff and the little boats that cross it. So now they had reasoned themselves into a corner. So why did the experiment fail? And they monkeyed around like that until Einstein, and they finally asked Einstein. But I think of it as a failure to detect the ether, the Michelson-Morley experiments. Is that right, to think a medium through which photons would be carried? That would make sense, yeah, that there was no ether. But then that left the question, so why isn't there at least some change? Why did the experiment totally fail?

1:09:02Okay. Along the way, they ignored things about the experiment. The first one is that if you do the experiment with one photon at a time in the interferometer, you get the same results. And that means that the photon has to be split in two for that to work. Today we call that photon entanglement. But back then they said, well, I don't know, spooky at a distance, right? And then if you do it with photons of just red light, then you get the same results, but the bright bands of light are still red light. And so therefore, the explanation that the photons would constructively interfere and destructively interfere can't be correct, because if they constructively interfered, they would have to change color.

1:10:05Blue photons have twice the energy of red photons, So that would mean you would be sending in blue light or sending in red light and looking at interference patterns of red light. But that's not the case. All that's happening in the interferometer is that the photons are being steered into bands of red photons. That needs another force field to do the steering. So what is, if you have in traditional electromagnetism, classical electrodynamics, you have an electric field, a magnetic field, and a wave, and they're all sort of running perpendicular to one another. What other field types do you think exist in the Hall of Photon Theory?

1:10:51A whole bunch. Okay. Like what? Okay. And remember, the force fields can be different force strengths. The electric force, magnetic force field, is considered pound for pound to be like, what, a trillion times, I might not have that number right, 100 million times more powerful pound for pound than the force of gravity. Yeah, it's 10 to the 40th. But because the force of gravity is weaker pound for pound than the electromagnetic field, the force of gravity can move further than light, okay? So the force of gravity from our galaxy can affect the nearby galaxy, the Andromeda galaxy, at 2.7 million light years, whereas the force of electricity from our galaxy cannot, right?

1:11:45but einstein wanted to ruin that analogy by saying to protect his own reputation i guess i have no idea why trying to say that nothing could travel faster than light not even gravity but obviously if gravity can travel further than light it must be traveling faster than light if you look at the say of the symmetry of the andromeda galaxy and you say, well, it's 10 ,000, 100 ,000 light years, 200 ,000 light years across. And that means that, and it's so well organized, gravity must be traveling trillions of times faster than light. Otherwise, if the stars were trying to do that and gravity was only traveling at the speed of light, they'd all bump into each other.

1:12:40So is gravity in your model also orders of magnitude weaker than electromagnetism? Because if it's traveling that far and having an effect, a pulling effect between mass bodies? If it's weaker, then it could go further. And see, in the photon... How does that hold? If it's weaker, it goes further? Because it's like a milk truck delivering milk, right? If it's going to go down the street and hit every house, then it's going to stop and interact along the way, or at least stand ready to. But if it's going to just do one house here and a house 10 miles down, the guy can go into high gear. But I would think of attenuation as being a wave being a certain kind of strength and then it attenuates.

1:13:26The only way a force field can attenuate is, say, like gravity, is for there to be an interaction cross-section put up by another piece of matter or energy somewhere down the road. and then when it's traveling it's not trying to interact with the electric field it's trying to interact with another gravity field and those are attractive interactions and if it casts and and because it doesn't have to there is no interaction cross-section between gravity and say an electric field it would be traveling through, then it could travel much, much faster, much, much further. That's what the neutrino is.

1:14:26The neutrino, we're told, can travel through, if everything between the center of the sun and here were solid gravitas, a neutrino could travel through it all and not interact with anything. So therefore, a neutrino can travel many, many times faster than light. However, you say, well, what about the neutrinos that, say, are measured at the CERN reactor? Well, if they're going to interact using electricity and magnetism, then they have to slow to that speed electricity and magnetism to perform the interaction. Because time doesn't change. Time is always flying at the same rate. They're all in the same time frame.

1:15:06Do you think we have neutrino detectors? That's why neutrinos are so hard to detect. Yeah. But there are rumors that we have neutrino detectors like at the South Pole and, you know, kind of exotic. Hall photon theory says that light is a bundle of force fields, and so there have to be a whole bunch of force fields in the photon. And you must have to have variations of photons that have different collections of those different force fields, because you have photons and neutrinos, which you see, which are very similar. And that means that even though photons that we're used to are limited by the speed of light, because the electric field and the magnetic field have interaction cross-sections, the permittivity of free space and so on, right?

1:16:10Okay, that it has to touch base. It has to vibrate all those piano wires, if you will. If you have those other force fields be weak force fields, like the neutrino is surrounded by weak interaction force fields, they don't got to vibrate the electromagnetic wires. You see? They only got to vibrate their own wires. They may not have to do it at all. If you say, well, what are the permittivity of free space for those other force fields? They're much less than the ones for electricity and magnetism. Therefore, when you say, let me compute the speed of light for those force fields, as I do in Beyond Relativity, you come up with a speed a trillion times faster.

1:17:01Charles, using the Hall photon theory, how would you build the UFO and how would you basically propel yourself faster than light? Well, I'll give you some general principles, okay, based on what I personally saw in the deserts. The first thing is the UFO must be a smooth ellipsoid like an egg or a Tic Tac, because the first principle of designing the different force fields and so on is there cannot be any turbulence. What about a saucer? Does that rule that out? It depends on how the edges of the saucer are. It can't have anything concave. An example of something concave is if, like on the camera, you have the lens and it's shaped nice and then around it as a ring that sticks out, and in between where the lens meets the ring is concave.

1:18:13If that were the shape of a spacecraft that you were trying to use to propel yourself through space, you would be strictly limited to less than about 80 % the speed of light, because the force fields in that region would obey Einstein's theory of relativity because they're not streamlined in that area, they would go turbulent. And once they go turbulent, the force fields will bump into each other. The heating can go to infinity. The amount of energy that's lost in that little zone could go to infinity. But convex is fine. Sorry? Convex is fine. Concave creates this turbulent kind of But if you took that lens and made it a complete ellipsoidal sphere of glass, and you use that shape where there's no sharp edges, there's no concave edges where there's just always egg-shaped, then when you surround it with a bubble of force fields, they won't go they won't go turbulent because they're streamlined for high speed travel when you do that and you start accelerating towards the speed of light it'll just continue accelerating as though the speed of light weren't there it'll just go right on through when you hear stories like Ryan Graves Navy pilot talk about a sphere inside a cube or other kind of exotic you know, looking objects that do have pointy edges and, you know, don't always look like your traditional saucer or egg or tic-tac.

1:20:04In the 2003 timeframe, a large group of Boeing contractors were operating near one of the launch facilities at Vandenberg Air Force Base when they observed a very large hundred yard sided red square approach the base from the ocean and hover at low altitude over one of the launch facilities. This object remained for about 45 seconds or so before darting off over the mountains. There was a similar event within 24 hours later in the evening. This was a morning event, I believe 8.45 in the morning. Later in the evening, post-sunset, there were reports of other sightings on base, including some aggressive behaviors.

1:20:45These objects were approaching some of the security guards at rapid speeds before darting off. The force fields interact with light. And when you see, and you can see it on the Tic Tac video, the Navy pilots, when you look at the video, the first question you have to ask yourself is when you're looking at the edges of the craft, You have to ask yourself, are you looking at just the force fields that are interacting with light that go away when the craft shuts down? Or are you looking at the actual physical metal ceramic parts of the craft? See? Thinking about refreshing the carpet in your home?

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1:22:24because remember the scout craft that you see like for the grays and the whites did not make the deep space crossing only the deep space craft make the deep space crossing what are the differences? what's the main distinction? the difference is the scout craft, we use RVs to get around Yeah, see, the deep spacecraft—and I speak from direct observation—they can all be individual, like ships at sea, or they can be general purpose. But one, for example, looks like—well, you see how this house is. One that I personally saw was a little bit longer than this house, a little bit wider than this house, about half again as high as this house, and it was all totally smooth all around, you know, no protrusion or whatever.

1:23:30It had the standard double hull, and then it had another, and the way this house has this room and then on the side, it had another set of rooms. So it had the double hull on the outside, then it had a boundary area where you'd store stuff on both sides. And then it had the living area where you had actual cabins the way you do on ships. And then up at the front, you had the cockpit and the control area up on top and control lights up on top. And then in the back, you had the propulsion system. And that was meant to put sand out to deep space and head out for stars 100 light years away. Okay, I'm quite certain of that.

1:24:15On the other hand, see a saucer that you might have for your children to take out to the play area, which I also saw. It's not meant to go faster than light. It's just meant to go, like, from Bishop, California, to Roswell, New Mexico, in a half hour. you know and it could do it in 10 minutes but it's just meant to have a couple of teenagers take charge put in three younger children say eight or 10 and go out and play and just go around places here on earth so getting back to how you'd build the ideal when you build it yeah if you build it for deep spaces when and and and one that's has like that where you have like a ball inside and then stuff outside, like a cube or something, you might ask, is that really one craft?

1:25:17Or is it the center ball is the real craft, and the outside is something like a car pulling a trailer? You know, you see, you have to first ask, who are they and what did they mean to use that craft for? You see? Because they don't just come here in a craft. They build them while they're here. Now, the Norwegians with 24 teeth can only repair their craft when they get here. At least in 1965, one of the things they wanted to be able to do was to work with the American government and build craft here. And that's, see, so whenever you see a craft, whether it's a deep spacecraft or a scout craft or whatever, you have to ask, what's it meant for?

1:26:09If you really expect to do high speed, like 50, well, like the scout craft that the tall whites had that were ellipsoidal. One time I asked, personally asked, Range 4 Harry, if that craft could exceed the speed of light. He was a very nice guy. We were like brothers. He was very adamant. He said it could, but nobody, I'm going to use my words, in their right mind would ever take it that fast. Once you got up to about 1 % the speed of light, you were covering distance so fast, in his words, that if anything went wrong, your friends couldn't find you. And he didn't think it was made very well. He pointed out that to repair it, you had to sit the craft down somewhere, like in the desert, and go outside and open it up to repair it.

1:27:05But that the real deep spacecraft, you could repair everything from the inside. So the first thing that he thought that a deep spacecraft had to have was in addition to a double hull and fiber optic windings in between those two hulls to carry subatomic particles that would generate the force fields that you were working with, that you had to have access from the inside of the craft to repair them. You had to be careful they didn't overheat. If they overheated, the design had to apply. You had to be able to repair that from the inside. If you got in trouble, you had to have emergency beacons that used the force fields that travel faster than light to send for help.

1:28:01because those types of force fields that you're using in the design, like you could see it in the TikTok video, if you're going to control infrared rays that are traveling at the speed of light, you want to use a force field that itself is traveling faster than the speed of light. Otherwise, you can't catch them and control them. How does the—you mentioned that the engine or the propulsion is the only thing that the tall whites didn't kind of fully give the humans as far as the ability to sort of fly these UFOs. Direct observation. So, yeah. So what do you think as far as how do these engines work?

1:28:59What's the power source? And then obviously it's not chemical combustion. So what's going on in the engine? I'm quite certain that there's more subatomic particles, more quarks than the six they know of. There's at least two more sets. But how do you figure that out? Sorry, you have these large Hadron colliders. It's super expensive to build. It costs billions of dollars. When you sit down to design a craft, there's five subatomic particles that are virtually always used because they're close to being stable and easy to work with. and what you need is to have ceramic fiber. You're in your engine.

1:29:53You have to produce those. So you don't have just one engine. You have to have a way of producing all five of those. And then what you have are ceramic fiber optic cables. Ceramic fiber optics are 49.6 % aluminum, 50.2 % silicon dioxide. That's the same as rocks. And the remainder is the semiconductor, germanium, selenium, and so on, that you use to coat those fibers with to create fiber optics. And then you wind those into coils. And whether you power up those coils or don't power up those coils, that's how you control and propel your craft, okay? And how you design those five depends on what you want to do with your craft.

1:30:53There's two more types of subatomic particles in that family that are more unstable and are only occasionally used, but not for craft that you would ever have children or a family on. because all of the extraterrestrials travel as families. You'd only find them on military craft. And then there's two more, and so far we've talked about a total of nine, that are so unstable that you would never use them when you were designing your craft. You would only use them if you were designing a military weapon. And when you say that number five, right, and the number seven, that seems to ring a bell, doesn't it?

1:31:50Because we're told that when Ike Eisenhower was president, that there was a day that we're told publicly by ancient aliens and the U.S. press and so on, that there was a day somewhere, the British guy said it was at Edwards, other people said it was at Alamogordo. But they say there was a day somewhere where he was taken, where they took him out, the day he was supposedly golfing at Palm Springs and was taken to Edwards. No cameras, no press. And sitting on the runway at Edwards were five spacecraft with extraterrestrials by them. and that they were shown to Ike Eisenhower. Not one, except for the guy whose name is Charles, looked at that and said, that makes perfect sense that they would do five.

1:32:56Because what they were showing him was the general features of how their spacecraft were designed. And you'd say, why five? because they were showing that there were five different subatomic particles and that when they designed them, they first said, I'm going to use this one for this purpose, this second one for another purpose, and so on. And so they were showing them that they had five different purposes in the design, you see. Okay, but those who mean well think that they just arbitrarily showed five. Another one is number three. See, the fiber optics coils melt suddenly at about somewhere between 1800 and 2200 Fahrenheit.

1:33:53Not because they're made by aliens, but because rocks melt between 1800 and 2200 degrees Fahrenheit. And if they're 50.2 % silicon dioxide and 49.6 % aluminum, that's what they are, is rocks. And if they melt, and if the fiber optics melt, as they did during the two craft that crashed at Roswell, as described in my book, The Valley of the Grace, what you'll see, you would think, would be melted rocks. I know, I know, UFO people try to pretend that there was one saucer, and it was going fast, and it bounced, and it hit the ground and melted the rocks and then bounced up and went on. And my answer is, if you haven't, you know, when was the last time you saw anything bounce against the rocks in a Nevada, in a New Mexico desert?

1:34:54I never have. Once they hit the rocks, they break. when the reason there are melted rocks there is because there were two saucers and the fiber optics were overheating and melting and when they melt they melt like melted glass or lava and they have a big chunk that looks like lava and a big chunk falls and then it hardens and hits the ground and looks like a melted rock so when you see those reports that the geologist came and his son said these are melted rocks and they left them behind. And they say we went out and picked up all the debris and we picked up this metal that resumes its shape. I said those were cigarette wrappers.

1:35:42Those were gum wrappers that did that. What you passed over was the stuff you care about. We found a piece of metal about a foot and a half to two feet wide but two or three feet long felt like you had nothing in your hands it wasn't any thicker than the foil out of a pack of cigarettes but the the thing about that got me is that you couldn't even bend it you couldn't bed dead it even though the sledgehammer would bounce over it so i knew that i had never seen anything like that before and as of right as of now i don't know what it was so you're saying jesse marcel that was just like the the sort of memory metal that was just the kind of exhaust.

1:36:26That could have come off from a kid's toy, okay? Yeah, because, see, what you have is what you, after you've put in your melted, after you've put in your coils, then you have to protect them from the weather. Now, when you protect them from the weather, you're going to have to cover them with a thin metal sheet, okay? But you're not going to be able to support the metal sheet with an outside metal strap. Okay? You're not going to be able to protect the metal sheet with an inside metal strap because you can't have turbulence in the force fields. And the metal is electromagnetic. We'll screw it up with stray electromagnetism and so on.

1:37:19And when you're designing it, you're going to start from square one and then three times a day you're going to come up and say, I don't want any turbulence in this force field. I don't want these coils to overheat. You're going to leave if you're a gray designer and you're designing a craft for gray children. Then you're going to, as per the Roswell Museum, you're going to have something that is missing from their display model. On the underside, you're going to have a little doorway that the operator of the craft can open anytime he wants and let molten fiber optics fall out. Okay? Because he's in desperate mode to save his fiber optics, they have overheated.

1:38:10And then he can close the door and take off again. And if he does, he may not be able to use all of his coils. So if he's by himself, he's in deep trouble. As in the craft over the plains of San Augustine in 1947, he's by himself. And he's got big trouble. But if he's got two craft beside him, the fields from their craft and the fields from his craft will join together. as I've personally seen Range 4 Harry do with the high-speed horse formation to form a single larger craft when the fields are present and stabilize his craft, and now the three together can fly off to someplace safe. Okay? You need to use specific metamaterials for these, you know, very intense kind of environments and a lot of electricity.

1:39:17Do you need to use specific materials for the craft? Before you can know about the materials, you have to know about the subatomic particles because the ceramic fiber optics are supposed to contain what fiber optics do today, only they do it differently. I've personally seen the fiber optics when, as I describe in my book, when I was in the summer between my fifth and sixth grade, when Ray Palmer, I believe that was his name, editor of Flying Saucers Magazine, in a store in London, Wisconsin, and his childhood friend who ran the store came back from Roswell with a stretch about a yard long. And it was woven.

1:40:09It wasn't a thin strip of metal. It was like they took nylon fibers, but it wasn't nylon. It was ceramic, and wound it. And then when you shined the flashlight through it, the light would bend without being absorbed. Now, but before you do it for the craft, you first have to know about the particles, because you have to know how to build the fiber optics before you can do anything else. So Roswell, you mentioned the Roswell Graze, and you're talking about the Roswell Craft. The lore is that it made its way to Wright-Patterson, Wright-Airfield at the time. And you're saying it eventually made its way to Area 51 or to the Nevada test range?

1:40:49I don't know where it made its way to, but I don't care, because I've seen the real one, and I know what it looks like. According to Jess— Where did you see it? Did you see it in Nevada? In Nevada. I've seen a craft of that type many times. On one, as I describe in my book on the Valleys of the Grace, on one cold and snowy night in the fall back in the 60s when I damn near died in the fog, and the scout craft with the young lady in it and some of her friends, accompanied by the deep spacecraft and the teenage craft, they had gone down to the bend in the road. and she alone, she was just learning to run the craft so they didn't let her take it up in the air.

1:41:38And before the fog moved in, when I was walking down there, I was on the side of a hill, I was alone and she had brought the craft in on the paved, on the gravel road. She just had the control coils running. Thinking about refreshing the carpet in your home? Now's the time to do it. For a limited time at the Home Depot, Get 10 % off installed carpet projects on trusted brands like LifeProof, LifeProof with PetProof Technology, Home Decorators Collection, and Traffic Master. Plus, with installation starting at just 49 cents per square foot, upgrading your space is more affordable than ever at The Home Depot.

1:42:16Offer valid September 24th, 2026 through October 4th, 2026. Exclusions apply. For licenses, see homedepot.com slash license numbers. And she had opened up the door on the side. I was very reluctant to approach a craft because I knew from experience that they all have those fields surrounding them. And then if you get too close, it's like walking into the back of a jet engine. When the jet engine is running, you've got to just stay and let them see you and let them come as close as they want to your ass burn. But she had powered down the outer coils. So from her point of view, there was nothing keeping me from just walking the final distance and stepping up into the craft and saying hi, and meeting her and the others who were on the craft.

1:43:05I didn't realize at the time that the teenager who was the backup pilot, he was a young gray. They looked just like someone from Mongolia. But the other three, she and the other three, were actually humans. They were young Chinese people that the Grace had rescued, not abducted, but they had been orphaned and the Grace had reputed. And the whole point was that they were trying to return them to human society. But first you ought to find a human who everybody trusts, including the children, and the human has to be somebody who trusts them in return. And the human they had figured that they had chosen had this last name Hall and a first name Charlie.

1:43:59Okay? They're Charles, right? And you say, well, why didn't they tell me? And they say, well, that's why we picked him because he'll figure it out if we just give him time, right? Why tell him early and scare him, right? You know, that's why we picked him because he's perfect at convergent, divergent reasoning and he'll figure it out. And that's what they're doing, waiting for me to come. And what they had was the very same craft of the three that crashed at Roswell. What they had was the very same craft. And in the back of that craft... Do you think we know how to fly these crafts now? Do you think humans know how to fly them?

1:44:40I'll finish this sentence and I'll answer it. In the back of that craft was a restroom. In the back of all those people are real physical biological entities. They all have to eat. They all have to breathe air, drink water. And they all have to periodically go to the restroom. And therefore, every craft in the back has a bathroom. You see? And therefore, when you say, like the crash at Kingman, the lady that the young lady that survived that the sheriff there said that after she came out and they were waiting for help to come what did she do his own words he said she went back in the craft and stayed in the back and one and the ufo people say it must be a shrine where she was praying and of course i think that's really laughable because having seen the craft there's no shrine back there.

1:45:41What there is is a bathroom. And if the craft, and there's also food storage. And so if the craft has crashed and she's got to wait a while, like every other biological entity, they're going to fall back on the bathroom. You see, there's no reason to fall back on the control panels because the craft isn't running. That's why they crashed, see. But the UFO people all have this thing. Well, there was a time they said in all those craft, there must be a shrine in the back. you know, where they go and pray, and you'd say, no, no, no, no, I've seen the craft. They're going, that's a bathroom, right?

1:46:17And I have a whole class of stories in that vein. No, no. So when I say my advantages, I've been there and seen that, I say the wreckage that was sitting in the hangar at Roswell that was recovered from Roswell, when you say, what was that like? Well, that wreckage had the bathroom on the other side. And so that meant for the part that blew in was blowing in on the food storage, you see. And so when you went on the wreckage of that, I would guess that you would find on the other side what remained of the restroom, which might not be very much. I'm saying when okay but now in answer to what was your question that you wanted me to answer I asked if humans you mentioned that these there were these Chinese occupants of the craft do you think that humans can fly these exotic you know ET crafts it's like everything else if they're trained okay it's like if if they have an opportunity to learn if they have a trainer if they Yeah, it's not something you can do naturally for the same reason that a Cessna airplane, they tell me, is a pretty simple airplane to fly.

1:47:47I've actually flown one as co-pilot for about 45 minutes, but not by myself. There was a trained pilot. I was in the co-pilot seat, and the trained pilot was in the pilot seat. And it was a nice night, and all I was doing was flying straight and level and saying, yeah, I'm not moving anything, okay, if you call that flying. Does the training involve the mind-matter connection? There are rumors that there are no control panels. Do you sort of psychically connect with the craft? You don't do anything psychically. Everything is electronics. the electronics either are adjusted to tell what you're thinking and therefore react because you're thinking, or to not work at all.

1:48:43It isn't the person that has to change their way of thinking. It's the person who's adjusting the electronics has to adjust it. It's unique for each human. So how many of these tall whites were out there with you, if you had to guess or estimate? It varied with how many ships were in port. See, the deep spaceships would arrive and would come and go on schedule the same way an airport is. They liked to come and go near the night of the full moon. And on the night of the full moon, the moon and the earth and the sun all form a line. So behind the earth in its orbit is a uniform gravitational field, and it's going away from the incoming craft.

1:49:42So if anything goes wrong, they can back off, and the Earth won't run into them. It'll go away. This is much different than the Norwegians with 24 teeth who want to come in on the front side of the Earth because the Norwegians with 24 teeth, with less technology, must land at any price, even if the Earth runs into them. But the greys and the tall whites, the deep spacecraft of the tall whites, want to come in on the night of the full moon. The greys, who have a base on the moon, come and go at any time they want. The tall whites, the craft come on schedule, and they have different schedules. Some are making a two-month schedule.

1:50:26The longest schedule I saw was craft that take five years, and those craft with a five-year schedule, I was told, were coming directly from their home planet. But, of course, since all the craft travel many times faster than the speed of light, I'm not sure where their home planet was. But if there were no craft in port, then the number of tall whites at the base wasn't particularly large. I'm not sure what the number was, but it would be rare to see as many as 100 out in the desert if there were no ships and deep spacecraft in port. On the other hand, the night that Pamela was supposed to pass her test to head up a technology transfer, a tall-way technology transfer team, by dressing up and disguising themselves as— by dressing up and disguising herself as a human woman, and the other tall white by dressing up and disguising himself as a human man specifically named Charlie Hall, and she would specifically pretend to be his wife so they could go into places like Livermore and pretend to be humans and talk to the scientists, I'm guessing.

1:51:57Wait, explain what you just said. In a minute. The night she was going to pass that— Are you saying that you're a tall white? No, I'm not a tall white. I was born in Brooklyn, Wisconsin. My parents all came from England. Well, then, but they mimicked you. One of the tall whites disguised themselves as you and your wife and then showed up at Livermore Labs? I'm guessing. I'm guessing. And how do you know? Well, where did that come from? I've never seen any classified documents. I'm guessing only from my personal experience talking with the telewrites. They've told you that they kind of used you for inspiration to infiltrate, or not infiltrate, maybe that's too aggressive a word, but to enter American scientific programs.

1:52:46I'm just totally guessing. But the night she was... To tell them how to not be afraid around humans and to act easily when in the presence of humans. That was his whole MO, that he was supposed to be there. Because they were as terrified of us as we might have been terrified by them. And that was what the program was. On that night, there were more tall white scout craft located up the valley and on the eastern side of Indian Springs Valley. On what night? The night that Pamela was supposed to pass her final exam, the crowd that formed of tall whites and a few human generals and bigwigs on the eastern side of the valley, there were more than I could count.

1:53:49I stopped counting at 35, but I guessed there were at least 70 there. There were so many scout craft and tall whites that that whole side of the valley was white, fluorescent white people, scout craft. It looked like a county fair over there. and all they were going to do is watch her, Pamela, while the teacher and Pamela, over where the ammunition bunker was at three and a half miles, was to watch her, the teacher and Pamela, walk down the paved pathway, or one-lane road from the ammunition bunker on the east side, down to about halfway where there was a ridge, and then the teacher would wait there, and then Pamela, with all of her technology turned off, okay, on totally trusting that I'm a nice guy to be around, okay, otherwise totally helpless against me if I'm not, was supposed to continue walking down the pathway until she got to the range boards.

1:55:14And then while I was working, while I had released the balloon and I was tracking the balloon, to just walk over to me disguised as a human. She didn't have to be disguised as a human lady, just wearing her natural suit, totally turned off, to just walk over to me the way you and I are. And then while I was working, walk around behind me and turn her back to me, proving that she trusted me, just like the scene from The Man Called Horse, where the Indian chief does that to Horse, turn around and talk to me. with her back turned towards me, totally turned off or everything, and then walk around to the other side with everybody watching, and then walk around and say, it's been so nice to meet you, Charlie, and then go on, and then she could leave.

1:56:18And the guy pretending to be me as her husband would then have to do it next. On that night, she failed the test. And that night she panicked and got about, well, she didn't even get down to the quarter mile limit when she panicked and was afraid that I was truly an ugly monster that she couldn't trust and ran off. But there came a night when she had to do that. And that's described in my book. What do you think the tall whites want with humanity? Do you think they have goals for us or do you think they're just trying to engage in diplomatic relations? Well, they came here in the middle of the last ice age because we, for the same reason that we have a base on Guam, the sun and the solar system exists in the middle of a huge void in space.

1:57:14The next closest star, Alpha Centauri or Proxima Centauri, is almost four light years away. Most stars or many stars have another star within two light weeks. It's not all unusual for many stars to be not more than a light year apart. if you're going to cross that big void in space as you're conducting interstellar commerce for your own good, then it's nice to have a place in the middle because that void is therefore something like 8 or 10 light years across or 6 or 8, a big long light there. It's nice to have a place in the middle where you can stop and get food and water, go outside your spacecraft and repair it, where you can stop and rest, but also get minerals or other things that you might need.

1:58:20So it's a pit stop. It's a pit stop. Interesting. And, of course, the reason that there are many of their spacecraft doing that is because it is for the same reason that there are many Air Force planes that stop at Guam, because location, location, location. What do you make of— Now, if you're there, it's a big help. If you have some locals who grow some food for you, they're plant eaters, the Toloites, as the greys are, and do the work of harvesting and hand you the food. What do you make of rumors, stories, that Eick Eisenhower, you know, meeting possibly, you know, Palm Springs, 1954, this, this, this treaty, you know, you say five, five crafts showed up.

1:59:08There's another story, um, called, you know, Holman Air Force Base, uh, where there's a landing and, uh, there's a possible interaction between, you know, some generals on the base and, uh, these, these tall beings, but they seem to actually have like almost pharaonic Egyptian, uh, headdress. And, uh, this was, this video I think was promised at one point to Rod Serling and Bob Bemenager, who made UFOs past, present, and future. And the video never came. But I've spoken to some pretty interesting people in the UFO whistleblower world who do stand by that account, that that was like a real meeting.

1:59:47Do you think that that happened? And was it a tall white that came out of the craft at Holloman Air Force Base? um i'll maintain my policy of never commenting on other people's stories and and the reason the reason is because my books are based totally on my own experience yep and and it's not based on anything i've read or any they're not based on any any classified material. I was never part of any project. They're based on what, when you say, what was life for me? And what I'm trying to do in my books, one of the major things I'm trying to do in my books is I'm trying to tell my grandkids how it was for me.

2:00:41And I'm trying to point out to them that when you're personally dealing with the extraterrestrials, you feel differently than when you're personally dealing with your guardian angels. Your guardian angels are like brothers who love you. There's never any fear with the sensation that your guardian angels are there with you. Because each of us, I believe, has two guardian angels, at least, who are always with us and have nothing else to do but keep track of each one of us. And I get so frustrated when I see so many humans who mean well trying to confuse guardian angels and what God and love and the guardian angels are doing with what the biological entities who are extraterrestrials are doing.

2:01:39and so and that's what i'm trying to do in my book i'm not trying to i don't care what the government wants to classify that's fine with me if they want to classify the recipe for hershey candy bars and say you know you can have one charlie but don't tell anybody you know do you miss do you miss the tall whites do you feel an emotional affection towards them you said that you and Range 4 Harry were like brothers. Do you ever think, hey, maybe I could contact Range 4 Harry or go back and speak to him, go back to the range to Nellis?

2:02:17Well, let's say if I were out in the desert, let's say out by Dale here in New Mexico, which is one of the tall white playgrounds let's say if i ever were out there and and let's say i happen to see them if i were to just say thinking about refreshing the carpet in your home now's the time to do it for a limited time at the home depot get 10 off installed carpet projects on trusted brands like life proof life proof with pet proof technology home decorators collection and traffic master plus with installation starting at just 49 cents per square foot upgrading your space is more affordable than ever at the home depot offer valid september 24th 2026 through october 4th 2026 exclusions apply for licenses see homedepot.com slash license numbers well i just wanted to you know monkey around and see you or you know, whatever, well, they might say, well, now you've seen us, and so go on about their business.

2:03:23See, they're very goal-oriented, even though they like us. And it's not that they're being rude. It's because, remember, the teacher in 1965 who had been born when George Washington was born, when she was playing with, when she was over at Range 2 that Sunday with her daughter, who she called the Butterfly, and the little white girl that she wanted to be friends with her little, with her daughter, because the little girls could be friends, she was standing there on the side in a very now, they were playing on the skip-bomb area, and the two boys were playing And also, she was standing a little ways away from him on the higher ground, slightly higher ground.

2:04:14She was very nostalgic remembering her childhood where she played on the same piece of ground with a little Native American girl who was equivalent to her age, five years old at the time. But her memories of that little Indian Native American girl that was her very best friend at the time, because they lived 10 times longer than we do, in the time that passed, while she went from equivalently being, say, in the fourth grade to the seventh grade, for us, those are just a few years. In that equivalent time, the Native American little girl grew to adulthood, got married, had children, went through her entire life cycle, and died of old age.

2:05:11Just in the time the teacher had gone through the equivalent lifestyle from the fourth grade to the seventh grade. Do you think they feel a fondness for humans? They do. They do. But on the other hand, from their point of view, gee, I'm 80 years old right now. You know, I'll be dead, and what for them is the blink of an eye. I don't know, even if I live to be 100, I'll, you know, it's just two more. I only have two more years to live. So from their point of view, if I say we're out there at my age, they might—I mean, they're friends, but you have to remember that socializing and being friends for them with humans is a little bit like us being friends.

2:06:11and socializing with, say, a dog in its old age that we may not have seen for five or ten years. There's a guy at NASA who has a deep interest in these sorts of things, experiencers. His name is Timothy Taylor. Have you heard of him by any chance? Did you say Timothy Taylor? Yeah. He's a good friend of ours. Oh, so you know Timothy Taylor. Tim Taylor. This is one of those characters where, well, if you know, you know. But if you don't, there's probably a reason why the mood shifted here, folks. Tim Taylor was a NASA engineer who became a biotech entrepreneur, and according to Diana Posolka's book American Cosmic, where he appeared under the pseudonym Tyler D., has remained actively involved in launch operations for NASA up until today.

2:07:04Posolka paints Taylor as an enigmatic figure who led her and Stanford microbiologist Gary Nolan to a UFO crash site in New Mexico. By many, he's considered a gatekeeper, well-connected, with access to crash retrieval secrets, as well as personally receiving what he termed downloads of information from otherworldly sources. He claimed these downloads were facilitated by protocols he engaged in, protocols that allowed him to communicate with non-human intelligences. In Pasalka's book, Taylor undergoes a profound conversion in the Vatican archives, blending technology and the phenomena and what became a personal revelation.

2:07:45And then he decided to convert. But also what happens is he changes his idea of what these things are that he's feeling he's getting signals from. Because we were studying saints who had these experiences, and he was thinking that they're more in line with what they were, you know, experiencing. And outside of her account, super experiencer Chris Bledsoe's memoir openly names Taylor as a NASA insider who befriended him after his encounters. Sometimes Taylor would bring other scientists or officials to witness Bledsoe's experiences. I myself was briefly in contact with Taylor and I'm not sure what to make of him.

2:08:23And even though I was shocked that his name came up in this conversation, I wasn't necessarily surprised. The deeper cut on Tim Taylor is that he himself is some sort of time traveler, part of a secret program adjusting timelines. This doesn't come from me. Perhaps my favorite figure, aerospace engineer and anti-gravity inventor Thomas Townsend Brown, is connected with Tim Taylor. This is where the story gets weird. Thomas Townsend Brown was obsessed with anti-gravity, but gravity and time have a tight relationship in general relativity. This is just standard physics. So the subplot of his great biography by Paul Shatzkin, The Man Who Mastered Gravity, is that Townsend Brown was obsessed with time travel.

2:09:06He would talk about it constantly with his friends and family. Apparently, Tim Taylor told Ryan Bledsoe, Chris Bledsoe's son, that he was part of a secret group in Nassau in the Bahamas that dealt with time travel. I would dismiss this out of hand entirely, but there are some even more interesting connections between Townsend Brown and Tim Taylor. There's an Amazon review that Townsend Brown's daughter wrote on Tim Taylor's biography, Launch Fever. In that biography, Tim Taylor talks about his time traveling back and forth to the Bahamas. He spent a lot of time in Nassau. Townsend Brown also spent a ton of time in Nassau.

2:09:43In fact, his biographer, Paul Shatzkin, even coined a term for a secret group that used to meet there. It was called the Nassau Group, and it included the elite of the elite, industrialists like Eldridge Reeves Johnson, and even the inspiration for James Bond and Churchill's super spy, William Stevenson, who helped form the CIA. So maybe Tim and Townsend are part of a secret time travel group. Who knows? But it is interesting that Taylor seems to consistently pop up around very important experiencers in the United States. Now back to our conversation. How did you guys originally meet Tim Taylor?

2:10:20He's sort of this very interesting figure, you know, works with NASA and he's very interested. He came here because he found out about Charles. And that was when his daughter, the one who had the baby, was like, what was she, maybe in fifth grade when they came the first time? Yeah, we. Why do you think he was he became interested in your story? My wife can answer all the questions. Because he realized that as far as he was concerned that Charles was, the real article was legitimate. And as I say, it's really concerned me because I've tried to email other people. Because he brought other people to meet us and visit with us.

2:11:15One of the guys cooked right here in my kitchen, and so I tried to contact those people because I had emails for them, and I never got a response about what happened to him. Who did he bring? Let me see. King. David King. Wasn't that his name? And what was the doctor that was—I think I still have the email. emails, but he brought lots of people here and, oh, brought them to Las Vegas. Kit Green, Dr. Kit Green, maybe? No. We were at Green's house, I believe. At Kit Green. He flew us to Atlanta and had us meet the, oh, what was their last name? No, I can't remember. I know who you mean, honey, but I don't remember their last name either.

2:12:13We met all his friends. They had a whole house full of people and entertained us. Interesting. What did you get the sense? Did they just want to learn or did they? They were just big fans. But because he introduced them to us. What did you get the sense of like his job at NASA? Do you know what he does? He said that he... was no longer involved, that he went into business for himself. And he would, oh, that's the interesting story. He'd been all over to the various Air Force bases, et cetera, but he'd never been to Creech before. And so when he came back from Creech the first time, he said he thought that Charles underplayed the strangeness that was going on there.

2:13:12He said they were there for a ribbon-cutting ceremony, and he was standing right next to a friend of his. Oh, there were no lower-ranking people, just all officers. And he said to the guy, do you mind if I just drive up the road, you know, a mile or two? I won't get out of the car. And the guy said, oh, that would be a very bad idea. And then just that quickly he said, I'm so glad you could make it for this. You know, like, I didn't say what I just said. And, yeah, so he was really even more impressed with Charles' account after he finally got the chance to visit Creech for the first time. Did he ever say where his interest in E.T.'s came from?

2:14:07I don't remember that he said that, no. There were many things. We never talked about his work or things of that nature. And we also never talked about projects that he was associated with or anything like that. Did he ever ask you about your Hall photon theory? I'm sure we talked about it. He was interested actually in buying a house and moving out here. He seems to pop in when experiencers have anomalous experiences. We never had any trouble getting in touch with him. And as I say, the last contact we had was just when he said, you know, he was looking forward to being a grandfather. And that was it.

2:14:57He just disappeared. We never heard from him since. I've heard that from numerous people. He did that. I mean, I had very intermittent correspondence with him, but he dropped off on me. Chris Bloodso, a bunch of other people. It's just that ours went on for so many years. Yeah. You said 15 years? I think so, yeah. Wow. It's so strange that he would just not contact you after 15 years, though. Yeah. I mean, we shared a lot of really personal things. And you know, of course, he converted to Catholicism. Yeah. Yeah. Recently in, what, in 2015, 16-ish? Something like that. During his trip to the Vatican.

2:15:42Yeah, and he'd been to Rome several times after that. So, yeah. Do you think when he went to the Vatican archives, he experienced anything around the ET topic? Any confirmation of that? I have no idea, but when Charles and I went to Rome for the first time in 2000, what was that, five, six, something around there, I took the first three books as a presentation for Pope Benedict. And a couple, you know, like two months later when we were home, we actually got a thank you note from Pope Benedict. Really? Oh, my God. Yeah. That's amazing. I think we Xeroxed it and put it in book four, maybe. Wow.

2:16:36Can we see that? I'd love to see the banking note. That'd be amazing. Oh, it's in book four. Okay. That's awesome. Do you believe that Timothy Taylor has ever met an extraterrestrial? He certainly didn't say anything about meeting one. Has he shared any personal sightings that he's ever had? No, but maybe the fact that he disappeared. Maybe he went off with them somewhere. I don't know. One night I was out in Range 3, and a group of new arrivals, it was after the full moon, a week or so, and as usual, a group of the guards, the permanently assigned tall white guards at the base up at the north end of Indian Springs Valley, They brought down, they were using the tourist model scout craft, which had seating for like two dozen.

2:17:31And they brought them down to the Rainshree area so they could see me, the first human that any of those tollways had ever seen. And while I was there, they came in too close. So I expect them, being new people, to stop at least at a quarter mile, which was more common. But they kept coming in because they were assured that I was a nice guy until they were as close as you guys are. Well, this was new. The guard was in position. This was when I was still new and still not completely at ease being around them. And since the new people are armed, too, that meant that, you know, I was somewhat intimidated.

2:18:17And there was an older lady or a middle-aged lady. And I was at my theodolite stand. I was tracking a balloon. And so I said, well, so I just turned to him and I looked at him. And I just said, I'm feeling a little scared. And, you know, so I'm just going to put my stuff here. And I'm going to go into base. and you guys can stay and look around and do whatever you want and have fun. And then I backed away and I went walking, not running, key point, walking to my truck that was parked some distance away on the other side of the generator shack. And as I was walking, this middle-aged lady said to the guard, she was kind of surprised, she said, we didn't do anything wrong, did we?

2:19:03I mean, you know, we didn't, and, you know, what's he like? And the guard proceeded to tell the group what they thought I was like. The guard said, and I quote, well, he seems to talk more than most humans, and he seems to eat a lot more than most humans and us. But, you know, don't worry if you, and he scares a lot more easily than most humans. But, see, he's different. He just goes in and talks and eats, and then he comes right back out. The others, once we find him, would never come back and might not eat again for a couple of days. And they were all laughing. So just wait here. He'll be back out after lunch.

2:19:44Just give him time to eat and talk to some of the other guys. He'll be right back. Wow. You know, and that's what they thought of me. That encapsulates how— I wasn't braver than the other guys. I scared easier, but just let me eat and talk for a while. I'll get over it. Well, that encapsulates, I think, you and how special you are, because it shows in the documentary that Emil made as well, where like, initially you are scared and you don't know what to do. And I think most people would have a reflexive allergic reaction and kind of run away. And your reaction is just this kind of. I know 41 men that would agree with you.

2:20:19Yeah. If not all of them are still alive. Right. Oh, interesting. So 41 men who were had nervous breakdowns. sent out before me and came back compromised. Compromised meaning mentally unstable? Some of them, but some of them just wouldn't go out there again. Well, the guy before me had deserted. But the one I remember, the one I always felt sorry, it's the one I describe in my book. He was the one that was out at Range 4 one night when they first sent him out there. and the tall whites came in the, and I'll use my words, not his, the tall whites came in the high-speed horse formation and they came from the Northwest Mountains.

2:21:09When you're in Indian Springs, the mountains to the north and northwest, they came down. And they were coming across the dry lake bed at Range 4 and they were very close to where, and he was at the weather station at Range 4 and he couldn't believe they were real because they were floating and so he went out there and surprised them and he got too close to them because they still had their suits powered up and they were still in the tall white in the high in the high speed horse formation and he got too close to them and the suits which put out radioactive particles and you could see them when they were turned up high enough they would sparkle You could see the alpha particles and the beta particles and something out and the other particles.

2:21:58You could actually see the decay chains coming off the suits. And the suit and his shoulder almost touched one of the shoes. And I saw his x-rays and pictures when I was at the Nellis Base Hospital. Wow. And the doctor himself said it looked like the wounds from the victims of the Hiroshima blast, and it looked like his whole, the meat, everything had been cooked off. Wow. Okay? Yeah, had been cooked off. You know, the bone was exploited, and he just barely made it back to base alive. Did you ever experience any radiation damage due to interactions with them? no not that i'm aware of and part of the reason was because part of the reason was because you could see the the fluorescent if they had their suits turned up high enough you could see the radioactive decay particles and of course i recognized them immediately as radioactive decay particles because in those days in the early 19 that was in 1965 we'll see in the early 1950s you could still get radium paint and put it on your watch or your toys.

2:23:19And if you had a magnifying glass and you went into a very dark room and waited like 45 or 50 minutes for your eyes to perfectly adjust to the darkness and used a magnifying glass, you could actually see the subatomic particles come off the radium paint, the alpha particles, the beta particles, the gamma rays, and see so when I saw those coming off the suits of the tall whites out in the desert, I knew perfectly well what they were. I was surprised by how big the tracks were and how far they carried. When it came off from radium paint, the tracks would be coming off just a short distance like that.

2:24:03When you saw them out in the desert, they would be coming off distances like that there. So those suits had a tremendous power. Charles, this has been an absolute honor. I appreciate your time, man.

2:24:41Thank you.