I Spent 48 Hours with Bob Lazar (The Truth Is Stranger Than You Think)

28:28It's called the UARC and they do all sorts of classified stuff. You know, they have a super soldier program. They're, you know, we're always at the forefront of nanotechnology. And so the idea that. uh well anything i would have potentially been working on wouldn't be so outlandish as super soldiers or it'd be just very conventional sure um you know but still classified material yeah and stuff i think i think i think it's just helpful because um this stuff is circulating out there and you know the idea that you would get sent to that school specifically and work on something that you can't talk about is very feasible.

29:10I'm not saying that I did get sent, but if I would have gotten sent. Theoretically, hypothetically. Yeah, yeah. You got sent there. If I got sent there, you know, yeah, there's a very clear possibility I wouldn't be able to talk about it and I'd be working on some classified stuff. If you wanted to hire a guy who could think clearly, out of the box, and help solve problems, but who could be discredited if you needed to do that, Bob was probably the best person in the country at the time. He was perfect for.

29:40George Knapp was originally this very instrumental part of Breaking Your Story in 1989 as part of KLAS. You took him to Los Alamos, is that right, at some point? Yeah, I told him all this Los Alamos stuff, and I said, well, let's go there. I'll show you. And Security was a little more lax back then. So we got in a plane and just rented a car. And, you know, at that time, everyone I knew still worked there. So including the guards were getting in. Hey, Bill, Bob, you're back, you know. And so we're in and, you know, just took charge everywhere. There's my desk. Here's this. And, you know, walking here.

30:25And I still knew combinations to places. Right. I'm sure it was not all 100 % legal, but yeah, George just walked around, filmed everything, spoke to people that I worked with, and he said, all right, we can check that box off. And then we went back. Yeah. And so because I also, you know, again, I want to address some of these like detracting comments circulating online. There are people who are like, oh, he just quizzed the physicists, you know, at Los Alamos, but he really had some other job there or something. first of all like your your uh description of a particle accelerator and and how to actually you know detect subatomic particles i think was you know first class and then second you have a guy in george knapp which you are you have to either um accuse him of some sort of collusion or something in his orientation towards you or admit that you showed him around people knew i mean you know he saw it yeah yeah and clearly he was trying to suss you out by asking you to invite him, right?

31:29Presumably. Yeah, I just don't pay attention to the detractors and the nonsense. I mean, yeah, to me, we're we're past that. Now, I never met Dr. Teller again, but in 1988, when I decided to reenter the scientific community, I sent him a resume and inquired about a job. Dr. Teller responded by telephone and told me that he was no longer active, but just functioned in a chief consultant capacity. He gave me the name of a contact to call in Las Vegas. I made that call and things progressed from there until I got into the program at S4. And so you send him the resume and he remembers you somehow.

32:08Yeah, because I made mention of the jet car in Los Alamos. And then he sends your resume to EG &G and then you get a job there? I don't know if he sent it. He, uh, when he did reply to me, he, he gave me information, contact information for EG &G. So I don't know if he said, or just have a look at this young man or something like that. Or, or if he did send the resumes, I don't know what happened behind the scenes. Did you know anything about EG &G at the time or? I know they did measurements. They did all the, uh, I mean, those are the guys that came out and figured how to, you know photograph uh you know an exploding nuclear bomb without it getting overexposed um they did all kinds of things make giant flash tubes so you can photograph cities from bombers and and stuff so um that's about all i knew i knew they were just uh you know a contractor that did weird stuff for the government but you know leaning heavily in the nuclear testing area it's a company that is the namesake of doc edgerton who was mit faculty actually and edgerton grimmerhausen and greer there you go many types of cameras will be in use the most important are fast packs which operate up to 9 000 frames per second and expose their entire footage in a fraction of a second have you looked at any of the other you know i obviously you're really into nuclear and then you worked on UFOs.

33:40There's this amazing book that I always cite that I'm sure you're aware of, Luigi, called UFOs and Nukes by a friend of mine named Robert Hastings. And he talks about UFOs like Tic Tacs, saucers, orbs, all these different shapes and sizes of UFOs showing up at nuclear bases all across the U.S. I've certainly heard that. Isn't that interesting? And there are 167 whistleblowers who are on what's called the PRP program where they have to report if they're taking ibuprofen because they're guarding the crown jewels of american defense oh really 167 of these guys wow yeah there's really 167 of those guys 167 of these guys it's really why and they have yeah that's that's incredible i mean that should be investigated further and i i'm sure it is but not publicly but i mean you're talking about nuclear sites if you're talking about nuclear sites, you are at the very core of national security.

34:36So my point is, is if you're doing the photography of that early on, you've got to have some asymmetric knowledge of UFO stuff. That would be my guess. Yeah. They were the guys documenting and photographing everything from every angle from everywhere. Yes. So if in fact all that stuff was going on, EG &G had to catch something. Totally. And EG &G, it keeps coming up for me, too, in my own investigations. Even there's this thing called the Wilson Davis memo where the scientist who actually lives in Austin, his name is Eric Davis, meets with the head of J2 Joint Chiefs, under whose purview is all military technology, a guy named Admiral Thomas Wilson.

35:20and they're in the parking lot of EG &G and Thomas Wilson is like furious that he doesn't have oversight over this specific corporate program, which seems to be reverse engineering exotic UFO material. So you get a job at EG &G. What's your first touch point there? And so you have a little bit of context, but yeah, I originally went in there. I didn't know what the job was. They interviewed me for that. And somewhere in the middle of it, they said, you know, we actually have a different job that we're thinking of plugging you into now. I think I went to the bathroom and when I came back, they said, we're changing channels.

36:01We think we have. And I think, so I don't know if they were both something at S4 or something else was going to be for EG &G or the Department of Naval Intelligence. And then they thought maybe S4 would be a better fit. I don't know what, again, what went on behind the scenes. But there were two jobs there and they decided I'd be better off with the second one. And the second one was S4 out at the Papoose Lake area. And what were they screening for? Like, what do you think they were asking you and trying to get at? And then when you go to the bathroom, why do they shift? And they say, this guy is actually going to, that UFO thing we're stuck on, this guy is going to break it wide open.

36:48He could be a good hire there. Do you have any sense? That's what they said. But I think they were stuck, and I think they kept, you know, just because of the way the place is arranged, they kept trying to attack the problem from the same direction all the time, you know, which is only going to yield the same result. In fact, if you expect anything else, you're nuts. That's the definition of crazy, right? Doing the same thing and expecting different results. Um, but, um, yeah, most of their questions was not about, um, my technical knowledge or work experience. It was what I did after work and, you know, like the projects I built, why did you do that?

37:40Um, and I think they were just looking at trying to find somebody that was outside of the box. Yeah. And I think that's where I fit because before that you had really straight-laced scientists, physicists, technicians, you know, that abided by the rules and all that. And they looked, we need a little push from another direction. And I mean, it's my guess. I think that's why they popped me in there. At that point, do you have any idea what you're getting yourself into? No, no. But, you know, they said it's at a remote area and the work hours can vary. Some people are out there for two weeks on, one week off.

38:17Yeah. Um, some people, and you know, depends if they're married or not or anything and, you know, can spend that much time out there. Some people only go out three days a week and, you know, so, and some people are just on call and, you know, for the time being, it would probably just probably need you sporadically going out there on call and, you know, until we get you up to speed. And do you have any problem with traveling? I said, no, no, no. You know, so I thought, wow, if it's out in the desert, um, it's probably, I thought it was The only thing I knew about the desert was, at that time, it's a nuclear test site.

38:50So I thought it was weapons-related, and, you know, specifically nuclear weapon-related. And I was going to be at the, you know, the nuclear test site, at somewhere, you know, stationed near Mercury.

39:09The way it worked was they'd call me at random days, and they'd say, Mr. Lazard is now such-and-such time. We need you to come out today. So I'd go out there. I'd drive out to EG &G Special Projects, which was right in McCarran Airport at that time. I'd go through a little security there and then out on the tarmac and board one of the Janet flights. They were only used by the government for going back and forth to the test site. Highway 363 Las Vegas Tower, runway 263, line up away, traffic downfield.

39:42Yeah, we just took off and landed. and I still thought I was at the you know I didn't know it was Area 51 yep and you land at Area 51 yeah and first of all at that time Area 51 meant nothing it's just this is known as Area 51 okay as all the you know the test sites split up into areas it's Area 2 Area 5 so it's 51 okay at what point do you go to ask for you know these I've told the story so much and it's been so long. All the days kind of mix and infuse into one now. So I can't separate what you did on that day. What'd you do on the third day? I don't know. You know, um, of course, but I don't think we drove down on the first day.

40:32I think it was just a paperwork and stuff day. Uh, but the second day for sure, we drove down, um, got in the bus and it It was a long, bumpy ride. And the windows were blacked out on the bus. And it was just a navy blue painted bus. And it seemed like we went south. By the time we got there, got off the bus, I mean, the sun was setting to my right. And then what happens next? Well, I mean, you mean when I got there? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's where Dennis led me in. and he's Dennis for the audience I guess you can call him my supervisor but he was kind of my shadow and everything he was just attached to me this is Dennis Mariani Dennis Mariani yeah and so he leads you in yeah he leads me in there's a there's a guard there we get past him and then they had to train the hand reader to give me a card to open the doors so that's the first time I saw that hand scanner.

41:39I get the card. He shows me this, you swipe on the door and it records every time you come in and out and do everything. And is there a bodyguard or like, uh, no, no. Once you're in the room with the scanner, there's nothing. There's just a door you open up, but it's just a really long, really long Carter. And just kind of, it's not modern, looks old. It's just painted cinder block with light green and dark green. Kind of looked my old kindergarten or something. It's this vast expanse. And is all of it underground or in a mountain? It's kind of on the side of a mountain. Okay. You know, so the hangars are right on the side, or it's a hill, I guess, however you want to describe it.

42:19Sure. So the hangars are there, and then the corridor is in back of the hangars. So that gives you hangar access. And there were nine hangars, and they're fairly big, So that explains why the corridors were so long. And so you're in there, you see this vast expanse. Then what happens? We went to review the briefings first. So that was off to the right. We came in, there was a desk there. Somebody had already laid out all the briefings, which were summaries of the projects going on. So they didn't go in depth. but in case your project connected to some of these in some way, you had to have a brief overview of what else was going on.

43:07Project Galileo was the first, you know, the first briefing on there. And that was your project. Yeah. And then, but you had other briefings as well. Yeah, yeah. And that was Project Looking Glass. Looking Glass and Sidekick. And Sidekick. Okay. Yeah. And so I imagine you take most interest in Galileo, but you also look through looking glass and sidekick. Is that right? But Galileo dealt with the propulsion system of the craft and the directives that are given. There were two primary directives. It's one to duplicate the propulsion system or components thereof with available materials, available earth materials, it said.

43:53and directive two was to be able to remotely disable the operation of the system and some i don't know how it was worded somewhere the word at all costs was in there so that was really a high priority but they wanted to they certainly wanted to duplicate it but they really wanted to disable it i do think that's an important distinction in the mandate of the program it's to not necessarily reverse engineer but to parallel engineer find ways to with terrestrial yeah normal prosaic engineering build yeah or come up with a hybrid system something yeah i mean the bottom line is we want to produce the effects this machine is having so just do it in any, yeah, however you can, just, yeah, just do it.

44:50Which makes sense given the skillset they seem to take interest in with you because you are this outside of the box thinker. Yeah. You're not this prim and proper traditional academic or something who does not want to break rules, who might be extremely high IQ, but, uh, isn't necessarily rebellious in the way they think. they think within these sort of narrow confines they're given. Yeah, they were just looking to come at another angle and maybe we can, you know, uncover something. And just for the audience, what is Sidekick and what is Project Looking Glass? Sidekick was the weapon potential of the craft.

45:30The craft, if you're familiar with it, has three of the emitters on the bottom, look like large trash cans, and they send out the gravity waves or whatever form of energy is but excuse me sidekick dealt with using those to focus a particle beam to stop it from diverging so there was it appeared to be there there was some sort of weapon potential of doing that like a directed energy yeah weapon yeah i think it was a particle weapon so um i I don't know what the source was, but that's just what the briefing contained in it. Are you given any other context before reading these documents? No. And when you're reading these documents, what's going through your mind?

46:21I mean, some of the stuff in there was just nonsense. I mean, and you wonder, is this like a test? You know, there is stuff like, you know, the aliens had made 65 corrections to, you know, in the evolution of humans and things. And as Barry explained to me, he said, look, they keep everything classified here. But if somebody says something, you know, and they hear it on the grapevine, they said, yeah, they've got a disk, an alien craft at, you know, down at the test site. They don't know where it comes from, but everybody that they give briefings or information to, they put unique nonsense information there.

47:07So, like, if I had said anything, they, you know, said, yeah, there's flying saucers down there and aliens made 65 corrections. They go, Lazar is the guy that. Yep. So that's, I think they put it in there to attach to a person, you know, he got this and they make it something enticing to say. So you go through these briefings, what happens next? At some point, I went to the nurse who was the only female that was there. She said, you know, we have to do an allergen test. And I guess they had a bunch of samples from different materials. They drew a little grid on my arm and then just pricked them and, you know, waited for a reaction.

47:52They gave me something to drink, which is supposedly supposed to boost my immune system. It was a deep orange-yellow color, and I think that was because the vitamin B was in there, and I can taste that because it's really a nasty taste. What did it taste like? Yeah, like a vitamin B solution. Okay. But it also had a pine taste to it. But anyway, that was that. I wasn't allergic to anything, as it turned out. And eventually, I go in and was introduced to Barry, who's going to be my lab partner. And, you know, from what I understand, I was replacing somebody that he worked with. What was Barry like?

48:35Barry, I don't know, how would you describe Barry? Barry was very enthusiastic. Yeah. He was really happy I was there and really excited to show me stuff. But clearly a lot had been done before I got there. Yeah. If this was new, everything would be white, right? everybody would be in, you know, I mean, you always want labs and everything white in case you see a little speck of dust or a part falls somewhere you can identify them. You wouldn't have, you know, wooden lamp or lab benches and things like that. You'd probably have people in full respirator suits if they're just beginning. But these guys had reached a point where it was nonchalant, where they were, they were touching, you know, working with this stuff and And, you know, it really wasn't a thing.

49:27They were taking apart a car engine. So they had made a lot of progress, and they weren't afraid of what they were working with, although we were plenty afraid of the reactor. And at no point were you like, this could be some, like, you know, anti-gravity secret program that, you know, I just wasn't cleared to. No. Okay. I mean, initially, when I first saw it, I went, oh, that's what this whole thing's about. You know, it's just our new fighter. And it looks like a flying saucer. So that's why people believe in flying saucers, because they see these new fighters flying around. But yeah, it became quickly obvious that that wasn't the case.

50:09Like, we have no idea how the thing works. It does stuff that's physically impossible. And there's no country in the world could make something like that or have the power density that it has. It's inconceivable. So, you know, to affect space and time. Look, if another country was able to build something like that, the United States wouldn't exist, you know. To anybody who's a detractor, who doesn't, who could think maybe this was a U.S. object, something man-made or something that they put there as a prop, some people would say, do you think they were trying to deceive Lazar or other people and all that?

50:52Because I built it, there's one physical aspect of it that is impossible to build, period. 100 % not possible. As far as if we have to consider it being a almost 53-foot diameter craft, the main level, which is the level that Bob was able to access and at one point stand up in the middle of, that main level is in the center of the disc and there is nothing that was visually witnessed on the bottom level when he peaked that is a supporting column holding that 53 foot diameter floor we have nothing on earth yeah there is no material you know that's i that's the first i've ever heard of that angle that's that's really interesting that's right because i built it i think you know more about the craft at this point because of the thickness of the floor that we could see because of the lip of the yeah access way we could see the thickness of the floor also where the honeycomb hatchway is you could see the thickness of the floor that yeah 52 feet diameter there is nothing with no central support that would not be doing boring like this and maybe and potentially collapse there's nothing we have nothing that's that's a completely unique yeah structural anomaly yeah good job luigi yeah yeah no i never never and even entertained that That's fascinating.

52:34Yeah, that's great. But that's 100 % true. Yeah. There's nothing that can do that. Yeah. That's so interesting. What is the color of the craft itself? It's kind of a pewter, stainless looking, but it's, Luigi and I were talking about this the other day. It looks different close up than it does far away. describe how so i geez i wish i could i've tried to describe this a lot and uh what's interesting is that i my friend gene huff who was my kind of confidant at the time and um you know i tell him about this stuff and i said you know one of the weirdest things is if you're if you're close to it you know what it it looks like the craft and it and when you get far away it doesn't look right it looks more like a cartoon and so Luigi spending two and a half or three years modeling this and getting it and sure as hell whatever they did Luigi will probably best tell you about that when they take the camera and they put it in the hanger and look at it close up it looks like it should and if they back it off it doesn't look the same so they were able to whether intentionally or accidentally, kind of duplicate it.

54:03I mean, they've got the model so close that it's taken on some of the characteristics of the actual craft. And there's a part of the craft that you describe as blacker than black. Is that right? Yeah. What is that? Yeah. You know what they call the portholes around the top? Sure. I do not believe are portholes. You know, and I think there's a black ring that goes around the top part of the craft, and we call that the insulator ring. Above that, I have no idea what's in that top section, but that's where these small square slash rectangular holes are around. They are assumed to be like some sort of planar array where there is something similar to a computer in the top section.

54:53and those arrays determine whether it's looking at starlight or whatever. It determines its place in space. But they don't look black. They look so black. And it's not just Vantablack. They almost look like bottomless pits in there. But I know they're solid. I mean, Barry told me they're solid. I guess I don't know. Barry claimed they're solid, so to be technical, I don't know for a fact. I mean, but I still think there's some kind of sensors, but that is some unusual material. And when you go in there and look at the craft, it's a real ominous, creepy feeling. And a lot of it is because of the black.

55:43It doesn't look right. Did anybody else say that going into the craft gave them an ominous feeling? Yeah, he did say. It was definitely unnerving, I think was his word, looking at those. And just being in the craft generally, was that like a kind of ubiquitously known thing at S4? I didn't hear that from anybody, but it certainly was for me. Interesting. Yeah, because the first thing you think, boy, that must have been so exciting. and yeah, from an outsider, it might be, but no, when you're really there, it wasn't exciting. It was really frightening. And you walked around what looked like the cockpit of this thing?

56:25First of all, you can't just walk in. It's much smaller and narrower than you think. You have to crawl in and you really can't stand up until you're almost right in the center. So it doesn't have really, it's really all unusable space. Even if you're a small creature, there's a lot of unusable space in there. And, you know, because everything seemed to have a critical function to it. I'm sure there was nothing for decoration. There's a reason to have all that space and the reason the craft is shaped like that. But there were three things that look like seats. We call them seats, other humps, large rectangular smooth objects in there.

57:11There were three of those. We know those to be the amplifiers. They work with the reactor. It amplifies the gravity wave and it's channeled to the emitter, which is right under the amplifiers. Again, we just called the seats because they look like seats. I think it would be funny if it turned out that they were not seats at all. yet another component we just knew nothing about. Bob always found it to be really weird that when the waveguide is applied right on top of the reactor, these two guys, they're looking out. There's one of the archways that become transparent, so he believes that maybe that is where they're looking.

57:56But this guy here is staring at a pipe. Oh, the archway becoming transparent is so they can see. Yeah. oh it's so interesting i never like made that connection yeah they're looking at it oh and there's a screen that the blue screen with a symbol with the like korean like language yeah and then i i've always thought and i thought maybe they all become transparent maybe the whole arch like the whole all the archways can become transparent what why why would it only be one because it's so dark in there fascinating and you saw a translucent like almost korean looking symbols is that right yeah i saw the wall become translucent and at some point saw some kind of what i would call symbols but not on a in a three-dimensional way not on a flat screen or anything like that yeah explain how you saw it because you were explaining it to me yeah it wasn't like it was a screen um it was just like it was a three-dimensional character sitting almost like a projection you said yeah i he was explaining it to me yesterday because he explained it actually better yesterday than before i produced it and you were saying it felt it looked almost like a projection yeah no it wasn't a projection or it was on something It was just a three-dimensional thing in the air.

59:30Describe the day that you saw this thing fly. It was already out. Barry and I were in the lab, and then Dennis came in and he said, hey, why don't you guys come? We're doing a test flight. He said, oh, this is great. So we go out through the lab door right into the hangar. It was already outside, sitting on the ground. And shortly after we got out there, oh, I did notice there was a radio, and I mentioned this in Luigi's movie, a VHF radio, and they're in communication. So it made me almost positive that there was somebody in the craft. I don't know where they'd be sitting or how they would, why they're even in the craft, because like I said, it's so uncomfortable, unusable space, they'd have to be hunched up or trying to sit on the edge of one of those seats.

1:00:26So that put aside... So you think they put a person in there? I think so, because they were communicating back and forth. Did you hear a voice? Yeah. Whoa. Yeah, yeah. You heard a voice coming from the craft. No, from the radio. From the radio, from the VHF radio. But presumably coming from the craft. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. So he was monitoring. I mean, they must have had some other instrumentation set up in the crafts because he was monitoring something. Do you remember what the voice? Not a thing. But it was something. Because I mean, I was more stuck on the fact that how is a radio wave getting into the craft?

1:01:04This doesn't even make any sense. VHF being very high frequency? Yeah. I mean, it should be distorted by the gravity wave going around it. Anyway, shortly after the craft began to lift off the ground silently, had a little corona discharge glow on the bottom, and lifted off and drifted up into the sky and kind of moved around. During that test flight, Dennis motioned for me to come out and, you know, look up at it. And then he told me to walk forward, and the craft was just sitting there stationary. and I walked out underneath it and he motioned for me to look up. I looked up and I couldn't see the craft.

1:01:49So I thought it flew away. And then he said, you know, come back. And, you know, I walked back and I just walked back. It caught my attention. I see the edge of the craft. So if you move, you can see it. And if you walk underneath it, you can't. So you can clearly see it's bending the light. You can see the sky above the craft. So you can see that it's in its little envelope. And then it kind of slid over to the left and right and then sat back down. Is what you saw, did it look like what we talk about when we talk about UFO videos? And what we, you know, it's just like, look at the, you know, Nimitz, you know, 2004 FLIR video.

1:02:35or even some of the, maybe a better example, some of the optical videos, which are often grainy and fuzzy, and maybe that's due to gravitational lensing or some sort of space-time perturbation due to these effects that you're talking about. But when you're seeing this craft fly, are you thinking, this is the UFO stuff that's like in the lore? Yeah. You are. Wow. Yeah, for sure. Just because of the way that it can move, it can just negate. I mean, it's, I really don't know how to describe it. I mean, things like inertia really don't matter to it.

1:03:19It just, it gets away with murder when it, when it comes to flying. Did you ever think we are being tasked to figure out this reactor, even like, you know, the shape of the craft is sort of really confusing to us. how the hell do they know how to fly this thing?

1:03:40Yeah. Yeah. That goes through your head? Like you're like, are you, are you? Yeah. Well, I mean, yeah. Like I said, you know, clearly they've, they've had a lot of time with this craft already. It could have been decades for all I know. So they're familiar with it. So, I mean, they, they knew the emitters have to be rotated, you know, to couple to the reactor. I mean, they knew how to fly it. um so that these guys were somewhat proficient with it but it so it would be your kind of base case assumption that now we have functional what you might call alien reproduction vehicles or ufos that humans can fly if in 1987-88 you had stuff that was you know we could at least test and you could go under them and stuff then you would think that now we're probably probably made much more progress, I assume, or what do you think?

1:04:37I do not think so, no. You don't think so? No. So you think we can test these things and use them in a rudimentary ways, but we don't understand how they work at a... No, it's like the, you know, analogy I gave, you know, you can go back to the 1800s and drop off a motorcycle with the keys in it. And, you know, you can look at it and go, wow, that's never seen anything like that before. And look at the plastic fenders on it. And wow, that's unusual material. And, you know, there's the key. And eventually if you tinker with it long enough, someone's going to turn the key and it's going to start.

1:05:15Yep. And they're going to go, okay, we turn it off and go, all right, that's on and off. And, you know, eventually just given time and human ingenuity, they're going to get it throttles here and they'll become proficient at driving it. Yeah. But when it runs out of fuel, we're done. And when it comes right down to it, they can't even make that plastic fender. Right. So, yeah, so you can become proficient at using it. And I think that's where we are. We had some knowledge of that, but I think if we had developed that technology, we would have absolutely already seen it. we wouldn't be wasting one minute building a conventional fighter or other.

1:05:59Why? Why would you? And they say, oh, well, it's secret. Yeah, so jet engines were secret when we first came out with them, and we built a whole fleet. We'd absolutely divert every resource we had to duplicating these things. Do you guys think there's any chance that the craft is flown with somebody's mind, some sort of mental? It could very well be. because there was obviously no physical controls to it. Right.

1:06:31When the craft was being tested, the only test I saw from close range, it was already out of the hangar, and when I went into the hangar, the bay doors between all the hangars were open. They had big, you know, there's the door that leads to the outside that's at an angle, but there's also big bay doors between all the hangars. Those were open for some reason. And when I came in to go witness that, I was able to look down and see that, boy, there's other, because nine of them all the way down there. What's going through your head and emotionally, how do you feel? Well, first of all, where did they all come from?

1:07:11How could you, I mean, I could see you found one somewhere. There's a crash or whatever, you found one. You don't find nine. I mean, where did they come from? None of them are damaged to any degree. Although, the one I call the top hat had holes in it, but it looks like it was shot, you know, in a projectile. But it wasn't, you know, damage from, you know, crash or attempted landing. So, where did all this stuff come from? There's so much missing to the story. Did they all look like the exact same sort of replica? No, each one was different. Okay. But the material all looked exactly the same. The color, the sheen.

1:07:55So it looked like they were all made of the same material. So the reactors and the propulsion were all the same. The material was all the same. But the shapes were somehow different. Do you remember? I mean, maybe they're a specialized craft. You know, you can take a step back from humanity and you go look at all the cars driving around. Well, you got a truck that's a real long thing. You look at a Volkswagen, that's like a little, you know, you see a motorcycle. You know, they're all, but they all have the same somewhat type of engine, you know, internal combustion engine is a powering them all.

1:08:27So they must have all different functions. And maybe that's just what we're looking at. It's just, you know, and who says they're all men? Maybe some of those things are drones of some kind. People associate you with the kind of Billy Meyer sports model. Like, you know, the craft that looks like that. It looks exactly like that. Exactly like that. I thought Billy Meyer was absolutely ridiculous because I've seen some of the pictures and this is what I mentioned to you the other day, UFO researcher syndrome. I think the initial pictures Billy Meyer took of the sport model looking craft are 100 % genuine.

1:09:06And there's no way that there could be another one of those that just coincidentally looks exactly like what I call the sport model. So I think he absolutely photographed that and it was real. And I think at the time he got a lot of attention and, you know, he printed books and everything. And I think as time went on, he kind of missed that. And then he started making some models and taking some new pictures. And the other pictures looked ridiculous. They do. It looks like, you know. And there's something about like dinosaurs in his book. Yeah, I know. It looks like there's styrofoam balls all into it.

1:09:46Yeah, I found some more pictures, you know, come back. And, you know, so I think that's, you know, that's just a personal belief. Yeah. There's no way you can tell me that those original pictures aren't genuine. Yeah. And so that's the craft you worked on. The eight other crafts, what did those look like? I could only see two clearly because from the angle, all you can see is just a little piece, and then all you can just see is the hanger out there. But one looked like what I call a jello mold, which is more like a bundt cake without the hole in the middle. And then the other one, as I previously mentioned, a top hat, like a carnival straw hat, and the brim had a hole in it.

1:10:39Is your immediate instinct humans didn't make these? Yeah. Yeah. At what point do you not see an American flag on one of them? Yeah, on the sport model. I saw that the first day that I went in. Okay. Was there any talk of how these crafts were retrieved? I know, I mean, I know the Navy got the sport model. And I think that that was from what Barry said, that was an archaeological dig, which, by the way, isn't in the desert. It's in the water. And I if there's another term for an archaeological dig that's in the water, I don't know what it is. I thought it's still a dig. But yeah, that I don't know what body of water, if it was the ocean or lake or what.

1:11:29But yeah, that came from the water. Again, according to Barry, I didn't see this in documentation, but yeah, that was happened upon by the Navy. And that's all I know. And I just theorize that's how the Navy got in control of everything. So what you constantly hear is, you know, you have things like Hughes Aircraft building the Glomar Explorer, which, you know, subsea, you know, Discovery. And you have some actually more recent Lockheed subsea, you know, super subsea submarines and drone sort of things that seem to be able to, you know, scan the seafloor. And there's a great book called The Silent War by John Pina Craven And he was high up in the Navy And he talks about retrieval of exotic technology on the seafloor And I wonder, you know, you have Tim Burchette as a congressman from Tennessee Who says there are five hot spots in oceans all around the world We think they're coming in from way out Maybe they did millennial ago But they're here and they're in these deep water areas And that's why, I mean, like we say, we know more about the face of the moon than we do what's going on there.

1:12:46We have a higher propensity of sightings around these five or six, I believe, deep water areas. And I don't know, there's another, I have one friend in the Navy who's, you know, anonymous source. Maybe one day we'll do an interview, but he talks about the movie The Abyss by James Cameron. Yeah, yeah. And he says maybe that scene where, you know, this sort of glowing object shows up isn't too far off from the truth. Look, one of our science fiction movies is going to be correct. That's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a safe bet. Yeah, one of them is. Yeah. And we were talking last night with Luigi about Pascagoula, Missouri, was the site of the production of nuclear subs for the Navy.

1:13:32And you have a famous case there of some fishermen who, you know, experience an alien abduction and have a UFO experience. Yeah, there's something going on with the ocean. There is. It's been from the very beginning. George Knapp has interesting footage around Baja, Mexico. On the other side, you have Tampere, which seems to be a hot spot. You have the Caribbean, Bahamas. Yeah, I think that's where all these guys are hiding out. Exactly. Do you think there's a possibility it's, you know, the ultra-terrestrial hypothesis? So this is this idea that they're ancient remnants of like an antediluvian civilization that existed pre-Ice Age or pre-Younger Dress.

1:14:09An antediluvian? Yeah. And that they're more advanced than us. They're like the place of what we call Atlantis are these beings who have coexisted, co-inhabited the Earth with us. It really could very well be. Right. And if you just look at the size of the ocean, you can hide an entire civilization down there. And we'll, especially if they're immune to the effects of the ocean, just got to be deep. Yeah. We'll never find them. Would any of the scientific principles that you looked at as far as the bubble being created around the craft and all of that somehow be immune to salt water? Like, would it be able to travel transmedium?

1:14:46Because that's one of the... Yeah, absolutely. That's so interesting because that's the observable. That's light bent around the craft. I'm sure a raindrop would do. It's so fascinating.

1:15:04I've been involved in this whole thing since 1987. And since the 80s, or even before, let's go even all the way down to the 60s, everybody always talked about the U.S. Air Force. And Project Blue Book. And Project Blue Book. I mean, Bob Lazar comes out in 1989 and says they weren't crash saucers. They were intact craft. And it's the Navy that's in charge. And funny enough, 40 years later, that's what people are talking about. So, you know, when I see the new whistleblowers come out like Eric Davis or people that we're seeing, I'm not skeptical at the fact that they were involved in something. what i find very like basically very interesting is that they're all saying exactly what bob said in 1989 but they never say bob lazar is possibly factual right yeah yeah well there's bob has nothing to do with that but everything he said is right though yeah they're like high level there's definitely a decades-long multi-generational crash retrieval operation but the one guy who says he's worked on the craft yeah yeah no no that makes sense everything is right though i believe there aren't that many crashes there just aren't that many if you had to guess how many crafts are in u.s possession now in hangers now i don't know i mean nine nine for sure yeah yeah that's it i mean i can only talk about what i've seen do you do you think they have a sense of ontological tree like when you see all this stuff around you know uh the ability to manipulate timelines with looking glass or or even just manipulate time on a local scale um and then they're saying that they found these things at archaeological digs under the ocean do you do you have a sense that they have like a metaphysical model that's like greater than the average citizen So it's like their origin story of humanity.

1:17:10Maybe. You think maybe. Yeah, I think there's a good chance of that. Is your kind of Occam's razor explanation that these are extraterrestrials? Do you think they're time travelers? What do you think? I think that's all equal. I mean, there's just as much chance that they're, you know, time travelers, visitors from another dimension, us from the future, or aliens. I don't see anything pointing in any specific direction. I go with the aliens just because we've seen it so much in our movie. I think we're just trained to think that. And it's palatable. You can see other worlds. This can go travel in another fashion and get there.

1:17:54There's probably life there. They probably build things. And, you know, it all makes sense. Yeah. You know, but when you go to other dimensions in time, Well, can you even time travel at all? I mean, will that ever be possible? You know, maybe, maybe not. How do you get here from another dimension? Why would you care? Why would you go to another dimension and start hassling people over there? You know, so, I mean, the other things don't make sense. So, yeah, I lean, I guess the Occam's razor is aliens. But it could be any one of the other possibilities or one that we haven't thought of that's just completely ridiculous.

1:18:31What do you think was the top speed? Of just conventionally moving? Yep. I don't think it really had a very high top speed. Really? Yeah. Hmm. Like, if you had to... It depends. I mean, it depends on how it was being... Because you can maneuver it in a couple different ways. So, of course, how would I know? I mean, the speed it could attain. but I'm just thinking about an Omicron mode where it's just sitting there and moving. But you think about... Yeah. And at delta, the speed's going to be near infinite. It's going to appear somewhere else. You think almost close to the speed of light, or it would look like it's hopping across space-time or something?

1:19:21No, it would far exceed the speed of light. It'd be faster. Yeah, because you're not going in a linear fashion. You're just jumping over. Wow. Because it's bending, it's warping space. Yeah. So it's, you know, for a given distance, you'll get, you know, to the destination far faster than you would if you were traveling at the speed. And it's like crunching space time behind it. And then in front of it, it's like riding a wave or something. It's, it's just bending space around it. Did you hear anything around pulses involved? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's not a continuous. It's like, uh, uh.

1:19:59it pulses. I don't know what the maximum range of each jump is, but I know it's like a 10 millisecond recycle time in between it. So the craft is always doing this. When all three of the amplifiers are being used for travel, they're in the Delta configuration. And when only one is being used for travel, it's in the Omicron configuration. You guys do an amazing job of depicting the configurations. So what is Delta exactly? Delta is using the three, there's three amplifiers, Delta. Yes. And that's where they all focus together on a destination. Okay. The craft puts its belly in that direction, and that's how it moves.

1:20:40Okay. The Omicron is where it only uses one, you know, of the emitters to propel itself. Or it's not really propelling itself, it's doing the opposite. essentially create an indentation in space-time so the craft moves forward which always gives it if it's operating in overcon configuration it's never really stable it's kind of a you know somewhat undulating movement you know it's so interesting and and um yeah it's fascinating that that seems to be a common thing the craft yeah this this wobble yeah but when it switches to delta as soon as the two other amplifiers come on yeah online um that thing locks in space and time and then it's you know able to focus in any direction and move there instantaneously

1:21:45Logan Oh, alright What's up? You're in our mid-century living room set You have Luigi Van Ditelli, Bob Lazar And Logan is a long time UFO nut Okay And do you watch WWE at all? No He is the guy in WWE right now. He has an amazing podcast as well. I've known his brother actually for like a decade plus. Dude, I got to say, Bob, it is an honor to meet you, man. Absolute legend. What a privilege to talk to you. Oh, thanks. Good to meet you. I don't know if Jesse gave you any context to why I wanted to talk to you. They have a bit. Yeah, but maybe we'll rehash it. Okay. So, Bob, check this out. Okay.

1:22:33I have in my possession UFO footage that has a story behind it that is compelling but not convincing. And I've been waiting to just do something with this footage or receive confirmation of sorts. And I see this particular orange disc sometimes in UFO videos and documentaries. It pops up every now and then. But when I was watching the trailer for S4 that you guys released, about 80 % of the way through the trailer, you guys show a disc that is at night, but then kind of coats itself in this orange. Right. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Dude, I paused it there and I said, oh, my God, that looks exactly like the footage that I have.

1:23:25So, this footage, supposedly authentic, was taken by two college kids who wanted to go to Area 51 in the 90s, I believe it was 1995, and film their experience of trying to see if they could stumble upon a UFO or just alien activity of sorts. Let's break this down. A couple of college-age guys drove out to the Black Mailbox, an infamous landmark entrance point to Area 51. It's along the road that leads to Groom Lake, extremely close to where Bob said he worked. It's nighttime. They're parked right in front of the fence surrounding the secret facility. The lights are off on their car, and they have a camera resting on the armrest pointed through the front windshield.

1:24:17And then it cuts to under the dashboard, and you see something very clearly illuminating, like, the top of the dashboard, and they're, like, hunkered underneath the car, and they're whispering to each other, like, I think it's out there, like, I don't know what it is, maybe we should go out there. And they're, like, kind of scared.

1:24:42Then something appears just beyond the glass.

1:24:51The craft is hovering extremely close to the car. It's orange and slightly wobbling or undulating in place as if it's on a wave. You can hear the two guys whispering.

1:25:29yeah that to me is exactly how it was described by bob it's exactly like like your hand did your hand it's moving the right way it's the right color and it's the right shape so it makes it very compelling

1:25:47the intensity of the light there's something very very bright that is affecting that the dash is being lit it's it's the the dash of the vehicle and the craft is above it right and look at the intent here's the dash and look at the intensity of the light that's going to happen here right whoa there those those are really yeah you can and it's fading in and out yeah you can't fake that you can see that it wobbles but it wobbles it wobbles that's the important thing yeah so it does comport with your video wobbles it glows like that in that color in that shape that's wild dude yeah i mean it's wild it's impressive it is

1:26:35The craft emits an orange-reddish color, which is not a coincidence. A craft with strong field interactions, like the ones that Bob alludes to, creates an ionized plasma sheath around itself. The dominant atmospheric gas on Earth is nitrogen. Ionized nitrogen that interacts with plasma glows red-orange. This classic observation of a glowing reddish or orange ball of light, Moving silently and erratically is one of the most commonly reported UFO descriptions across decades of sightings worldwide. No, what? Did you see that movie? No, I didn't. Logan has been sitting on this footage for almost a decade now, and I'll spare you the crazy details as to how he obtained it.

1:27:22But he's obsessed with UFOs and thinks this video should be out for the benefit of the public.

1:27:31Now I know this footage is grainy, and while certainly fascinating, it's far from conclusive. But it is another fascinating data point.

1:27:46What Luigi's movie almost definitively vindicates is the existence of S4. Remember, when Bob went public in 1989, Area 51 itself hadn't even been officially acknowledged by the government. And to this day, S4's existence is still denied. It's not supposed to exist. But Luigi used Google Earth's historical imagery to go back in time and found a 2022 version of the area surrounding S4 that was not yet blurred to obscure the site. And yet, vehicle tracks are visible in these older satellite images. You can clearly see the tracks. Look at them going in every direction. And you can look at all the traffic.

1:28:31Yeah, right? Yeah, that's not one guy driving around. No, that's not one guy driving, exactly. But again, there's no public out there. So what are you doing? Luigi also shows Bob a high-quality aerial photograph taken by a pilot roughly 17 miles from Papoose Lake. The image had previously circulated online, but Luigi enhanced the contrast a bit to reveal additional details. And if you look carefully in this version here, where the contrast has been changed. As we zoom, look what you see. Yeah, you can start seeing the... You see them clearly right there. Yeah, the slanted rectangular doors, yeah.

1:29:14Finally, and perhaps most damningly, the map of Papoose Lake was literally altered eight days after Bob Lazar went public in his first anonymous video. You heard me right. They changed the map eight days after Bob started to speak out, and the map was clearly modified in a way that would specifically hide the existence of S-4. Bob went public on May 15th, 1989. And he didn't come public. His name wasn't public. It was him as Dennis in silhouette. And eight days after that, the United States Department of the Interior, who works on the geological maps of the landscape at the test site, where it's Groom Lake, Papoose Lake, and the whole Nevada test site.

1:30:06actually modified all the maps there is specifically groom lake and papoose lake and papoose mountain range there and there's a stamp on all the modifications because the modification was dated 1989 so on the actual small print it says maps modified 1989 but the stamp of the exact day is may 23rd 1989 exactly eight days after bob went public and specifically they are getting just papoose lake so they're removing s4 no what they remove what the the specificity there is the specific thing they removed is there's a road that leads from groom lake down to papoose lake And as it leads down to Papoose Lake, the north end of the lake, the road forks off, it splits off in two areas, to the west of Papoose Lake and to the right of Papoose Lake, where S4 is.

1:31:14They specifically removed the road to the east of Papoose Lake, and they kept the same one to the west, which, why would they do that? Why would you suddenly remove the road that goes to S4? And leave everything else. And leave everything else there. That was an amazing discovery. Yeah, and it's there. I mean, it's not like we're not making anything up here. I was very specific of like, I don't want to put anything that makes us look like we're inventing stuff. This is verifiable. You could order these maps. The other thing I think that's interesting is for people doubting the story. Jeremy Corbell and Ross Colthart found a bunch of people who have verified Bob's presence at S4 right?

1:32:03I don't know if you have as well I think arriving at 51 or getting on the bus or something George Knapp also had some people and they got threatened back then and they were told six people that were threatened and basically they never made it forward George talks about it in the interviews we did with him, and he's talked about it in the past. And he says, they all received the phone call, they were all threatened, and they never went public. And, you know, for anybody who is a Bob Lazar detractor or doesn't believe the story, you then have to not believe George Knapp. Because why would George lie about that?

1:32:45What's the benefit here? You know, and somebody is going to say, well, it's because he put his name attached to the Bob story. No, not when that was happening. He was still investigating the Bob story. So he said that back then. It's not like it's new information. Well, he was getting a lot of shit. Yeah, he was getting a lot of shit. Being involved with the story back then, it was not, certainly not a feather to stick in his calf. You know, it's something I really want to put a lot of emphasis on because of all the haters out there is this happened when he came out. It was in 1989. it was a different era it was a different time in the world yeah yeah so you know the people now that think that Bob Lazar is a grifter or what where I'm a grifter because I'm making a movie about this and whatever you know this happened 40 years ago I was interested in UFOs 40 years ago and believe me, I was not popular.

1:33:43This was the most unpopular topic when it came out. It was considered to be so, don't touch that because it's going to ruin your life. So why would, first of all, why would Bob Lazar do that? And then why would George Knapp, a respected investigative journalist in Las Vegas who already was well-known and had a good job, Why would he hang his reputation and ruin his entire career just to support another liar? Like, it doesn't make any sense to me. No. It really doesn't. So, you know, let's not forget those. Yeah, and he has multiple P bodies. He's well-respected, exactly, as you said, outside of UFOs.

1:34:31Yeah. Yeah. Did you learn any other details about the guy that had died that you were replacing? Yeah, they had an operating reactor. so apparently which is also brings up all kinds of other questions to me um apparently the reactors and all the craft are exactly the same so that makes me think of a manufacturing facility yeah that's like a ford making an engine and it goes in you know a bunch of different models how can all these crafts have the same you know the same power system or propulsion system in them anyway I don't want to go off on a tangent but he had a reactor so it was probably from one of the other crafts and why they did this is beyond me they took it out to the nuclear test site and they physically cut into it while it was running under load and it exploded and I think there were three guys there maybe more they were all killed

1:35:37so number one why would you do that number number two it makes me think either they were extremely desperate and want to just well find out what's in there and you know and uh why would you even do it while it was operating or extremely confident that they knew what was going on in the reactor where they could safely cut it and they had a reason to get in there um but apparently that information never made it back whatever they gleaned from it or even their suspicions at the beginning because barry and i were kind of starting from the beginning on the reactor so everything they had done previously was lost anyway you ever learn the guy's name or any details about do you does barry have a last name or yeah barry castiglio it's spelled castiglio but okay steel i don't know how it's pronounced yeah have you ever tracked him down after i think briefly decades ago we made a reel because there was another guy that would come in and out once in a while named renee okay don't remember his last name but i mean at at some point i really put a lot of effort into trying to find dennis mariani and barry and uh i think some people did track down dennis i think he died not too long ago okay um i don't know about barry but uh i never was never able to find it because i mean back in the time i was looking for him there was no internet sure you know so you had to go through public records and stuff.

1:37:17And, uh, it was much more difficult than it is now. Yeah. And I know of one instance in which the name Dennis Mariani was corroborated by somebody at, you know, a Nevada test site. And so, um, you know, I won't, I won't go further than that, but, uh, because it's not right. It's not my thing to tell, but you're, you're giving names and, you know, I think some of these people could still be alive, which is pretty remarkable too. Like maybe we could track some of them down and they could back you up. I wonder, I mean, they have to know. I'm kind of wondering why nobody else came out, you know? Yeah.

1:37:58I mean, although Barry wouldn't talk about it much, you know, there are times I kind of mentioned, you know, holy cow, can you believe this is being kept secret? And he goes, it sucks, I know. So he didn't think it was you know he wasn't with the program as far as keeping this from you know the entire world what was his background no idea okay no idea um but there was kind of a collegial good will between you and yeah yeah yeah and he'd goof around sometimes which was nice because everything else was just so rigid and military so you know i'm sure the story where he threw the golf ball at the reactor and, you know, sometimes we'd start just start talking about stupid stuff.

1:38:45So it was, it's good to see a normal person, you know, that just acted like, you know, a human instead of a robot. What happened when he threw the golf ball at the reactor? He was showing me the field on it and he said, check this out and took a golf ball and, you know, intending to hit the reactor and instead it bounced off the field and then hit a ceiling tile, which dislodged it. and made all the little particles come down. And we knew Dennis was going to be coming back in two minutes. So it was red alert. We had to grab the stools and go up and re-ascend it and clean it up and everything. And shortly after that, Dennis walks in and says, what's going on?

1:39:27Nothing, nothing. We're working like we should be. I mean, this is a remarkable detail. Around the reactor, you have this sort of force field-like thing. this like repelling force. Yeah. Yeah. Once the, uh, a hemisphere on top of a plate, you know, about the size of a basketball, maybe a little bigger on top of a 15 inch square plate, um, the hemisphere is removable. Once the hemisphere is put back on, um, if the emitter is in the right position, the reactor will turn on immediately and it'll produce a gravitational field around it and you can push on it and you, you can't, you can't touch the reactor from that point.

1:40:13I mean, and it's somewhat elastic. You know, like if you have two light poles of a magnet pushing them together, you get that, it's the exact same field, but without metal, just your hands. But as I said before, what's really interesting is, you know, you can move the reactor on the table. And once you turn it on and you're pushing on the field, the reactor doesn't slide. So it's not transferring the force to the reactor. It's pushing your hand away. But it's really interesting to me. How did the reactor work? This is all guess. This is just all guesswork. Yes. It has a super heavy element in it, which appeared to be 115 on the periodic chart.

1:41:06There's a little tower in it. And from x-rays, we could see that there's a loop around the base plate. So it was theorized, apparently, Barry with his other lab partner. They thought that was a cyclotron, an accelerator, and that the tube that came up the side was an off-ramp, essentially. And that particle or whatever was being accelerated interacts with the 115 and somehow that produces the gravitational field. How did it feel on your hand? It felt exactly like pushing magnets together. Okay. It was just elastic. I mean, it was compressible to some degree. And then when it got close to it, nothing is getting past that.

1:41:58With magnets, you have to have like poles for them to repel. Yeah. And in this case, you're not, you know. It's just matter repelling matter. Yeah, it's so weird. Without polarity. Does it feel like a, what does it feel like? Is there a texture to it or? No, it's just elastic, but it becomes, it's not linear. But does it feel like. It's logarithmic, you know, it's easy to push and then it becomes M. possible. There's no way you're getting past the next three inches. You could probably sit a car on top of it and nothing would change. Does it feel like saran wrap or does it feel like what does it feel like when you're in it?

1:42:42Does it feel like No, it just feels It's literally like Yeah, I see what you're saying. You know what I mean? Yeah. Like is there a No, it just feels... A coolness, a heat. No. No. It's just like space-time itself. Yeah, it's just... I don't know how to describe it. Sure, sure. Yeah, but it's just there.

1:43:14I mean, at this point, I don't even think it's gravity. What do you think? I think this is another completely unique force. it doesn't behave enough like gravity and explain why it's so different like i mean because at least my thoughts at this point are i think gravity is just a property of matter and it's only an attractive force i'm not sure you can have anti-gravity um like if it was gravity you know at one point barry showed me he had one of the emitters it working he put a lit little kitchen candle right at the focal point. And he powered up the reactor and the flame stopped flickering. It stood there frozen in space and time.

1:44:03But I could see the light from the candle. The flame was still visible. Also, he removed the candle and then rotated the emitter. I don't know if it was another direction or more of the same way, but it made a little black ball in the air where no light was escaping, looking like a little black hole. But no, you could just tell there was no light at the focal point right in the air. It was just a dark area. So there it's affecting light, but it wasn't in the candle test before that. So it's a really unusual, unusual thing.

1:44:45When Bob mentioned this anomalous force coming from the craft's emitter, I immediately racked my brain for anyone in conventional aerospace circles who talks about something similar. And then I realized I'd just interviewed the lead electrostatic scientist at NASA, Dr. Charles Buehler, who talks about something very similar. Okay, where the heck is this energy coming from? Because if I was to stick this in space, it would accelerate. with the power off. That's a problem. You see, there's a long lineage of people studying gravity control or antigravity in the United States. Perhaps my favorite example is mid-century inventor Thomas Townsend Brown, who discovered that when you apply a high voltage to certain asymmetric capacitors, they produce thrust.

1:45:35That's right. Propulsion with no fuel, no exhaust, no propellant, just electricity as the input converted directly into motion. A new model for space propulsion that could eliminate crude chemical combustion rockets forever. Now you might think that's insane and defies Newton's laws. And I'll spare you all of the corroborating research that I've dug up showing that Brown made real breakthroughs in the world of antigravity. Dr. Charles Buehler at NASA has taken Brown's experiments to the next level with modern instruments, more rigorous controls, We see about 0.1 grams. That corresponds to about one millinewton of thrust.

1:46:16And decades of electrostatics expertise from his work at Kennedy Space Center behind him. He's done over 2 ,000 of these experiments and controlled for just about every variable you can think of. And he's also getting millinewtons of thrust, basically real propulsion with electricity as the sole input. And you can't really argue with his authority to make these claims. The man literally runs electrostatics at NASA. He's the incoming president of the American Electrostatic Society. And he's contributed two fundamental principles to the field of electrostatics that are now widely accepted. So this is kind of an interesting moment in history because we have a man who reverse engineered UFOs and then we have a NASA lead electrostatic scientist.

1:47:04So I thought I'd just leave it to you guys to kind of nerd out. Yeah, well, first of all, hi, Charles. Hi, Bob. This is a very exciting moment for me. I'm a big fan. Now, the thing about Bob Lazar is he kind of exists on an island. We've never seen him interact with other highly credentialed engineers in aerospace. And what I've learned after spending time with him is he's actually pretty skeptical when it comes to other scientific anomalies. Man, I'm real interested to hear, you know, your physical experiment setup. Is it a hybrid of your idea and T.T. Brown's, or are you just duplicating one of his experiments?

1:47:43I mean, can you explain to me what it looks like, what's your test setup look like? Gosh, there's 2 ,000 variations. I'll try to do my best. I mean, how is this? I'm sure you've seen the lifter ion motors and stuff along those lines. How is it different from those? in a few ways. The ion thrusters obviously use ions in air to give them momentum oscillation. What's interesting about this force, even though it's sort of the same geometry can be used, but in high vacuum, you'll get the thrust. But it's always in the opposite direction of the ion thrusters, which is really cool. Because what happens is you have a sharp electrode in the ground plane.

1:48:31However you do that, you can come up with a million ways to do that. In air, when you do that, you'll break down the gases, either corona or some fold like that. In vacuum, we can actually see these forces arise, but they're always in the opposite direction of the ion wind, which is really interesting. That is very interesting. It's the same direction as the rocket exhaust. You never think of that. So it really messes with you. So that's what's interesting about it. That's one main difference. Wow. Yeah, well, that's really interesting. I mean, the fact that it's in the opposite direction where an ion thruster would be.

1:49:05And you've done it in a hard or reasonably hard vacuum and you're getting measurable thrust? Oh, we have. We've been doing that since 2020. So for the last six years, we test almost every day, probably every other day, different configurations. So we zero in on a configuration, test another concept. And that is an ongoing iterative process. So yes, we have tested high vacuum, 10 to the minus 6 or better. the champion get up to 10 minus 7, but enough to prove to us that there's no eye on wind. What kind of thrust in newtons or grams are you getting? Well, we're still playing around in the hundreds of micro-newtons or millineuton ranges.

1:49:44So I think the highest we've gotten is probably up to the 50 millineuton mark. But that's when we stack these together. We don't learn a lot from them when we do that, other than we can make more thrust, which is important. But we like to understand the thrust density, if you will, of each thruster. So we're trying to optimize each type, optimize each parameter space that we have access to before we can get to larger chambers or outer space to test the megastructures. Physically, how big are these thrusters? Oh, they're not very big. They're about six inches, maybe six by six, roughly. Okay. It's a nice size.

1:50:22You know, we can make them bigger, but we don't gain anything by that. we just try to keep them manageable so that we can do different things with them, stack them, try different bulbages, and then we try to measure the currents and make sure that in many cases there is no current, which is very odd. I would say. Isn't that interesting? Yeah, I'd say. Turn the power source off and it keeps going. Wait, what? Yeah. It is very annoying. In some cases, when we trap the charge in there, that's all that's required. So that really eliminates a lot of things. So a physically larger one doesn't get you any more thrust, but you can stack them and get increased thrust.

1:51:06Well, a physically large one will, but we won't learn anything from it. You know, we can do eight inches or 10 inches, which we have, but we're not learning anything from it. We want to learn, you know, what is the best geometry shape? We want to optimize. We know area is one of the ways. That will be optimized later, once we're in space. but on ground test particles were kind of fixed by the geometry of our chamber. Once we get some funding here, we do, Drew does have almost a walk-in size chamber in his garage. You can walk in it. When that comes online in a few months, then we can test much larger versions of it.

1:51:41So the thrust does depend on the area, it does depend on the volume, it does depend on the voltages, the typical things you would expect. But you could try to optimize it as much as we can with the chamber we have actively running right now. How much are you charging them up to? What kind of voltage are you using? Well, when we started in 2016, it was at the Townsend Brown level, 150 ,000 volts. Thank goodness we're not anywhere near that now. I think we're operating right now about 400 volts. You're at 400 volts? Yeah, so his belief is that it's really Brown thought that the voltage range was, you know, the thing causing the thrust.

1:52:27But Charles' belief is that that's sort of a proxy for electric field strength. And there are obviously other ways to amplify electric field strength that lower voltages. And so he's using 400 volts. Yeah, but I can't. It's shocking. 1.5 millineutons. That's unbelievable. Man, I want to come over and hang out with you. I can introduce you guys. Put your hands on it. Do whatever you like. You're more than welcome. Isn't that exciting? Yeah. I can't believe you're getting these results, and I can't get past the 400 volts either. If you increase the voltage, you don't see any change in thrust. Oh, you'll get more thrust for sure.

1:53:07We like to stay, you know, 400 volts, 500 volts. We like to stay low if we can. Okay. Yeah. It's a preference. I mean, we'll average, we'll test up to 2 ,500 volts and start worrying about breakdown. We'll get more about that because these systems are getting much, much smaller. So we don't have access to the higher fields anymore. It's material properties that we have to deal with. But we like the 2 ,300 volts. It gets rid of other nuances like Corona wind or anything like that. Right, right. Yeah. All that stuff gets tossed out. Yeah. You're not even ionizing the air in air at 400 volts. I mean, it's nothing.

1:53:48That's why I was so shocked because all those other effects drop out right as soon as you drop the voltage down that low and you can get some cleaner data then. Damn, this is really cool. We're converting Bob on Townsend Brown.

1:54:05Well, thank you for this. Really appreciate it, man. Good to meet you. Good to meet you too. Take care, guys. Take care. That's really fascinating. Isn't that wild? Yeah, it's a little more than just wild. I know, right? Yeah, it is. I mean, that's significant. I think so. It could really be significant. You know, the thing is, the first thing I would point out, there's something wrong with your tests, but not in 1 ,500 tests. No. You know, when you've gone through it that many times and have done it for this long, boy, and you've adjusted all the potential parameters and fallouts to... No, I can't.

1:54:50I know. Yeah. You've got to assume that the thing's working. But you also, you mentioned DC voltage in the craft, and that's also at Townsend Brown, that is high DC voltage. Yeah, it's not just high DC voltage. I even mentioned it on Joe Rogan that I think the material the craft is made from is an electric. And so just like a magnet always has a magnetic field to it, an electric always has an electrostatic field to it. And I think that's certainly something important. Were there high climb rates to the voltage likely? You know what I mean? like really high climb like like like fast you know swinging up in voltage oh yeah i'm without a doubt it's so fascinating because it's literally all the towns and brown stuff it's like fast high dc voltage yeah like fast climb rates yeah you know well i wonder if that really applies to the craft more than i was giving it credit for i think it does especially after your conversation with yeah yeah i mean now that's making me wonder it could very well be again because of the high voltage on the craft and it's dc yeah so there's no magnetic field interference yeah right man that's we're making progress live here he might have been so far past this already but uh well the funny thing about brown is he was looking for a power source that was nuclear for like the rest of his career oh he figured out the electric avitics and then he called it the flame jet boy that would have been the guy to have there other than me um well i mean you and him i just no no You don't get walked off set.

1:56:26No, you and him would be. I just get in the way. But yeah, he'd be the guy to have there. And you were given some theories like there being two gravities, gravity A and gravity B. Was that in the briefing documents or was this told to you? Actually, I think that was part of what Barry. Barry had other lab notes, and I don't know if those were previous documents that he had, but there were lab notes, and this was the direction they were going in at one time.

1:57:07There are two specific different types of gravity, gravity A and gravity B. Gravity A works on a smaller micro scale, while gravity B works on a larger macro scale. Gravity A is what is currently being labeled as the strong nuclear force in mainstream physics and gravity A is the wave that you need to access and amplify to enable you to cause space-time distortion for interstellar travel. Gravity B is like cosmological scale and gravity A is like subatomic scale? Apparently. Apparently. Which it is really interesting because I remember your kind of OG science tutorial. We were texting about it last night.

1:57:48Yeah, the excerpts from the government Bible, the original tape that you did. And it's amazing. So it sounds like the kind of gravity A is like basically the perimeter of the atom or what you're dealing with. So you have to scale it up. Again, I'm just repeating stuff that I was told. it's not like i conducted an experiment to verify that so but it is almost the solution to what has been keeping physics stuck for so long yeah possibly quantize gravity right right possibly that's so possibly if in fact that's gravity have you ever you know we're talking about this but um gravity like fields and i want to give this to you because you can make sense of it more than me and um we're talking about this last time this is this guy burkhard heim have you ever heard that name i've heard the name but i don't know anything about him so he at the age of 19 um became deaf and blind due to an explosion and he was a german and he ended up moving over to the u.s and working for lockheed martin in the 50s and was renowned as just a total genius and he had a really interesting uh theory of gravity which involved i guess two gravitational fields and like some of these like sub components of gravity i wrote this down because it's honestly beyond my pay grade gravity breaks down big and small scale so it could be gravity a and gravity b specifically standard gravity g is the tensor summation of three gravitational components gg which g big g little g which is scalar gravity propagated by the graviton g by the graviton so he's going with For gravitons.

1:59:29For that. Okay. GGP, dark energy slash matter propagated by the gravitophoton, and GQ, vacuum field, a repulsive force propagated by the quintessence particle. So in addition to the standard four forces, gravity, electromagnetism, strong nuclear, and weak nuclear, EHT, which is extended Heim theory, which is named after him, adds two previously unrecognized gravitational forces, which brings us to six fundamental forces. Wow. And what I find interesting about that is there's Amy Eskridge is this anti-gravity researcher who actually died under very mysterious circumstances. And she apparently was, at the end of her life, kept talking about a sixth force.

2:00:11A sixth force, really? Sixth force, yeah. The sixth force is anti-gravity. That's what my group has a mathematical equation to physically describe. We have six force on lockdown. And so I wonder about, you know, this book and there's these two guys in Germany who are very high conviction in this extended time. I'd like to read it. Well, it's yours. Thanks. Oh, that's really interesting. Isn't it interesting? I'm also on that. I think it was not gravity. I don't think it is. I don't think it's gravity. Yeah. It's something else. Yeah. Something else. Yeah. Because if it were, right, if it were a gravity well that you'd normally see, it's a little black hole, a little gravitational source, you'd just see everything getting sucked into it, no matter what.

2:01:01Other things would have acted differently, too. Yeah, light lensing and, yeah. Yeah, so it's... It almost feels like... It almost has to be. It almost has to be. It's almost like it had rude access to reality itself, like it froze time. Yeah, but if it froze time, how come the photons were still coming out of it? You see a glowing candle. It should be dark. Can it freeze time in some local space? But still. Confine it. Still, the photons are flying out. Yeah. And if you say, well, it doesn't affect photons, how come it made the black little ball? So where do you think? Do you have a best candidate for what it is?

2:01:49No. there there is no that's why i think i mean i lean towards this is this is another force and just stop calling it gravity but do you think it's what barry said the only thing we know that does this is gravity so we're calling it a gravity generator okay and then and it's and it's being created ostensibly due to this proton bombardment of element 115 and then possibly get 116 and then you get a decay and then if in fact all that's occurring yes it's so interesting i mean don't forget that in the film we did not include the mechanical watch experiment that was also conducted in the lab so there was the candle the black ball and the mechanical watch we didn't put it in there just because we wanted to shorten the film but there's there was another experiment bob remember and there was like a mechanical watch that just stopped yeah yeah yeah i mean that's another indicator where bob said just like that i mean it's kind of similar to the candle it just stopped but i could still see it yeah it's like it's freezing it's time it's freezing movement Freezing movement.

2:03:07But not affecting anything else. There's nothing that just freezes a movement. No, it doesn't. But that is really, time is so weird. Because we only. Something that inhibits kinetic energy. Right. Which would be, that would be really weird. Well, it's so weird, especially given all of the forms of possible kinetic energy. You're talking about a watch, a mechanical watch and a flame are very different things. Yeah. So, it's so strange. While you were there, did you tell anybody what you were working on? You know, your wife at the time? No, Gene Hough. You told Gene Hough? Yeah. Okay. I told John Lear, too.

2:03:45Yeah. And you even brought them to see? Yeah, to see the test. Yeah, because I had the test flight schedule. Yep. So, I know it's a Wednesday night. Yeah, we're going out there, and you guys are going to see it. This is John Lear, and today is March 22, 1989. We're standing just about eight miles due east of Groom Lake, Nevada, the super government secret test site. And just a few minutes ago, we saw one of the government extraterrestrial UFOs fly over there. We all watched it for about seven or eight minutes. Right here I have my Celestron scope. It's eight inches. And I had it focused in for about 15 seconds and saw for myself that in fact it was a disk.

2:04:30there isn't much to see with the camera back in at that day and that was while you were working at s4 you showed them or was it afterwards that was boy that's a tough question that was while i was working there okay yeah when you saw the ufo with gene huff and john lear and you you kind of you know took them what was it to the little mesa was a mesa no it was right outside it was uh yeah before you know before you get to the black mailbox you know the reason anybody knew about the black mailbox everybody wanted to know where the road was that we turned down when you come up the highway it's this first dirt road you go down but there's no landmarks around there and if you keep going like another mile or two there's a black mailbox so i just said it's around the black mailbox yeah and that just got repeated and everybody thought it's a black black mailbox road is where it is it's not anywhere near where it is when when when all you guys went up there and you saw the ufo fly and i'm sure they were just totally shocked were you allowed back at s4 after that yeah that well the yeah the first time they didn't know we were out there oh they didn't know yeah yeah we only got caught the last time okay so they get and then i would never have let me back so after the last time you weren't let back there right that was it that was absolutely you refinished no they're not gonna come on back it's no no yeah yeah yeah they were pretty pissed Yeah.

2:06:10Why did you decide to come out and approach? I don't know, because I was still getting followed. There was always somebody parked outside my house and I was starting to get scared. And I, you know, I think that's when I first started telling Gene, I said, you know, hey, if all of a sudden I disappear, you know, I'm working out at the site there. And eventually I told him, he said, why are you working on secret weapons or something? And I said, no, I'm working on this and, you know, kind of told him. But I don't know. I'm just getting concerned about what's going on. Why do you think they were following you?

2:06:47I don't know. It might just be normal security. Did you take anything from the lab? Well, not at that time. Okay. Okay. Later. But that's interesting that they were, we'll file that away. But it's interesting that they were following you as if you had done something wrong when you were just showing up to work. No, but I mean, you know, they were still doing. They allowed me in there and they were still progressing on my clearance. They were still going through background checks, but they really wanted me on site operating quickly. And they kind of let that slide because I've had clearance before.

2:07:29So, you know, but, um, I, yeah, they were looking at some other things too. Got it. That concerned them. About you personally? About my relationship. Okay. Got it. And so the, and then they were digging into that. That's kind of. Yeah. You know, you have to have a stable family background if you're going to be, you know, playing around with state secrets and stuff like that. Sure. They don't want you being crazy. They don't want you drinking. in, they're going to be checking out, you know, how you play with friends. If you were going to rages, I want to make sure, you know, your wife isn't running around and they don't want any stress or any, anything to.

2:08:09But then at that point, if you see these like, you know, black cars parked outside of your house, why isn't your reaction? Okay. I'm just going to kind of eat it. Like they're going to like, you know, give me like a colonoscopy as far as like, you know, literally like knowing 360 everything about my life but i'll be able to retain my job at s4 or do you just you get scared and you're like i gotta i gotta come out i guess it's um i don't really remember how i felt back then but i i was just getting a little concerned yeah and uh did i think it couldn't hurt to at least tell one person you know so did you want because uh john lear gave the files on you to george knapp right a klas is that how it went down or gave the files on me or gave the like um said like you know hey yeah i mean yeah john lear is the one that contacted george knapp and said you should speak to this guy okay so he played kind of intermediary Was he going rogue on his own or did you say, hey, can you contact, you know, George or somebody in the local news to help me get this stuff out?

2:09:21No, I mean, at that, well, things were starting to get weird. And I don't really remember how that went down. But I think, you know, George said, look, you got to get the information out publicly because that's the only way, that's the only thing that'll protect yourself. I said, that's really stupid. I'm not going to do that. And, you know, it was just a couple days later on. Well, maybe it's not that stupid. And was it, do you think it was self-protection or idealism? Was a part of you like, this needs to be out, this is crazy, the government's hiding? Yeah, yeah. But it was an equal part of self-protection.

2:10:05Yeah, no, fair enough. Lear is somebody I think a lot of people have questions about because he was. He had crazy beliefs. Crazy beliefs. You know, I mean, some of the stuff was so ridiculous. You know, I would sit there and just talk to him and go, you are absolutely out of your mind if you believe. I mean, he didn't believe the sun was hot. And he said there were people living in the sun. So there's no one living in the sun, John. And said, yeah, they built the moon on Jupiter. And that's where they manufactured it. And they towed it into Earth's orbit. What is giving you these ridiculous? Why are you believing this nonsense?

2:10:45Yeah. How'd you meet him?

2:10:50Gene Huff was a real estate appraiser. And at the time, John was looking to get a loan on his house. And he had been on, George Knapp had a show on the record, like after the news. and John Lear had been on there back when he wasn't so, well, I wasn't going to say he wasn't so crazy, but didn't have such crazy ideas. You know, I mean, he was, look, he was an accomplished pilot, a brilliant guy, and he had, you know, tons of files and had lots of great contacts. The only problem with John was he had no bullshit filter. Yeah. I mean, he could have a four-star general tell him something, and he'll write it and put her in a file and he'll have some derelict that's walking by his house and go i know jello thinks and he'll go all right and he'll put him in the same file and they have the same level of credibility going what are you talking about you know um so uh he drove me crazy because of that but um he did you know earlier on he was you know less exotic with his theories and, you know, it's spoken to George Knapp.

2:12:08I had seen it on TV, so had Gene Huff. And anyway, he wound up doing the appraisal on his house, and I went with Gene to, you know, help him measure it. And, you know, kind of got talking to John, and that's how we met. He's such an odd character because his father created the first business airliner in the U.S., the Learjet, Bill Lear, aviation legend. Yeah, Bill Lear invented the autopilot, invented the eight-track tape, That's right. Radio direction finder. Yeah. He was, he was quite a guy. He was. And so, um. He, I mean, he had a problem with John too. I mean, John was eliminated from, you know, his will.

2:12:50And John showed me as well, you know, every paragraph said, except, you know, everybody gets this stuff, except John Olson Lear. Except John Olson Lear. I mean, he was so angry at his kid. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Completely removed him from the well. Maybe Apple fell far from the tree, like, you know, as far as, you know, aviation engineering prowess or something. But John Lear won all sorts of records as a pilot. He was a very impressive pilot. Oh, yeah. Credit is due where credit is due. I mean, he had all kinds of world records and it's just it's just his filter. John Lear was super into UFOs before you got the job at Area 51 S4.

2:13:37I think he had a UFO blog. And so do you think, why do you think it didn't come up in a background check that you were friends with this guy? Oh, it did. They absolutely asked me about John Lear like the first day. Okay, okay. Yeah, what's your relationship with John Lear? In fact, that might have been the first question. Really? Yeah, at EG &G when I sat down. That's the first thing they mentioned. And what did you say? I said, he's a crazy friend. Yeah. And I don't remember what else, but I just told him some stuff. Yeah, I met him and he's fascinating. I mean, John would just do the craziest stuff.

2:14:21You know, back then he'd, uh, he flew L-1011s, which is a big, big jet, you know, I know it's 400 people on it or something like that. And, you know, occasionally he'd call and just, you know, be like a Tuesday night, eight o 'clock. Hey, you want to go to Minneapolis? Uh, okay. All right. Meet me down at the airport, wear a suit and come on. So he'd be a pilot and, you know, the pilot of the craft and I'd come on. He said, just come on the tarmac and tell this guy and, you know, walk up in the plane. And he'd tell the co-pilot and engineer, hey, this guy's from the FAA. So he's just going to be observing us and taking it.

2:15:01So I take the jump seat behind the, you know, pilot and just fly with John. Did he talk to you about UFOs before you got the job at S4 Area 51? No, it didn't talk to me about him, but I mean, he spoke about them. Did he ever? Yeah. I mean, he used to tell me there are aliens living in the mountains alongside uh you know i think it's i-95 or something right the highway he said yeah there's a billion of them in there and it's so crazy did he ever uh show you anything billy myers related i don't i don't recall okay i think i think when i described i think when i described the craft to him and drew it i think he brought out the billy myers books and he said i think that's right for in fact it is that's where i first saw it so we saw uh we showed him the billy myers tape i said yeah that's that's not like the craft that's the craft that's so interesting so yeah he kind of helped you piece it together is did he um was he still affiliated with because he was a cia cargo pilot till 1983 yeah that's true did he uh continue flying for them after that or did he I don't know.

2:16:14Okay. I don't think so. Yeah. Because he was, he's this interesting character to me because it seems like he has crazy access to Area 51. Like he's like snooping around and taking photos of like F-117s. He even leaks the details of the F-117 to George Knapp, but then he still like knows all the security guards there. So I'm like, what's his, what's his deal? You know? I mean, I had been out at, you know, but before the S4 thing, um, you know, out in the desert in the middle of the night with binoculars and stuff trying outside, uh, Tonopah. Yeah. You know, trying to get pictures of any new aircraft that's flying around.

2:16:53Cause I mean, he was obviously a big aviation buff. Yeah. You know, and I was into that too. Sometimes I'd just go out and watch, you know, fighters taken off from Nellis Air Force Base. Cause you could get right up to the fence there. And, and, uh, you know, so it was, uh, yeah, he was definitely into snooping around and whatever he could find out. I, uh, I mentioned Jacques Vallée, uh, earlier. He, you met him, right? Yeah, I met him and, you know, we spoke briefly and then, uh, um, from what I remember, uh, And somebody was talking about making a movie with him. And then after hearing about me and talking, they started talking about, well, maybe we'll do it on Bob instead.

2:17:40And he was super pissed off. Really? Yeah. And then from that point on, all of a sudden, you know, everything Bob said is crazy. Really? Yeah. But, yeah, initially he was. Because, yeah, he writes, he wrote a book called Messengers of Deception. and he writes about you and he says, you know, Bob Lazar seems to be very legit. But he also talks about this Pine Sol drink he drinks, you know, this drink he drinks and the memory lapses it caused. There's no memory lapses. No memory lapses. That's a bunch of nonsense. Okay. That's a bunch of, you know. So it was like this vitamin B shot that was like immunity related.

2:18:21Yeah, yeah. That's all it was. Again, you know, we're working with completely unknown materials. Yeah. We don't know what. And apparently people had severe reactions to some of this stuff, just touching the craft. So, yeah. So they had dealt with that before. I feel like I can defend you on 99.9 % of things. And then the one thing I have trouble with is the MIT thing. Because that's the other thing circulating. Did you get your master's there or you were sent there? I was sent there. On a specific kind of program, isolated program. Yeah. And I did a lot of auditing in both places. And then on Caltech For Caltech what was that So you were sent to MIT and then Caltech was Different Caltech was way before that That was you know I don't know I guess if I Really look through old Paperwork and stuff I can come up With things but that's never been Yeah and I think George Knapp Found I think some people who Knew you at Caltech Yeah One other question that people have is why were you allowed to give him a tour of Los Alamos after, uh, you know, you blew the whistle on area 51.

2:19:35Like, why wasn't there this like nationwide directive at all of the national labs? Like, don't let this guy back. Like, it was really nothing. I mean, we got on a Southwest flight, came out there, rented a car, drove up. And, uh, I still knew all the guards and stuff like that. So we came up and he's, you know, it's like, well, sorry, you're back yeah just going in there to you know you think it was just like it was just like a different time and oh it's you can't los alamos is so much higher security now i mean it was so nonchalant back then and we just wrote right into the experimental areas came over here is it george this is my desk were you surprised was a part of you nervous that there would be some red alert no not at all you were like zero concern you didn't worry that there was any sort of coordination between Area 51 and Los Alamos.

2:20:26Nobody knew what was going on there. Like I said, it was very lax atmosphere. In fact, a year or two after that, they were so concerned about that. I think they called it the Tiger Team came in to test security there, and they failed so horribly that they just redid everything. And, you know, after that point, you're forget it you're not going in but um yeah i like still had keys and things yeah yeah it was it was not even a problem when did you start united nuclear nine 99 2000 did you ever work with the government with united nuclear yeah yeah oh yeah okay yeah do you i mean we still we supply I am, you know, they train Department of Homeland Security, FBI.

2:21:19I mean, we sell them stuff all the time, especially when they're training people to use radiation detection equipment. I mean, we'll give them or sell them, you know, radioactive sources so they can go hide something in a warehouse and give the trainees a Geiger counter, go find it, you know. Did you ever wonder why they didn't view you as a liability given your, you know, late 80s experience at S4 Area 51 and they were just down to do contract work with you? I don't know. I don't know. You know, but one hand doesn't know what the other is doing in the government. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's kind of a mess.

2:21:58Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, in fact, part of, you know, United Nuclear, when it was just beginning, some of the stuff we're selling was kind of questionable. You know, this could potentially, you know, be used for explosives or stuff like that. Great. So went down to the FBI and reviewed everything with them. And they went, no, you can, that's cool. Went down to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms. No, we're good, you know, Postal Service. No, everything's good. All right, great. We're going to go sell on it. And then, you know, raided by the Consumer Product Safety Commission. They come in with a SWAT team with a machine.

2:22:36woke my wife up out of bed with, you know, an M16 pondered in her face. Jesus Christ. You know, it's like, we checked with everybody. I didn't check with us. So don't you guys talk? So, yeah, one hand has no idea what the other is doing when it comes to the government. Yeah, no, I believe that. Is there any part of you that thinks that they wanted you to come out and that they wanted some frameworks? Because to your point, it's maladaptive to have this completely shut out from like, like to have a STEM student who's talented and, you know, Why go through the complicated, why, I mean, why make it complicated and make me do it?

2:23:15Right. Why not just do it yourself? Put out the high level framework and say, yeah. This whole complicated scenario with this guy coming in and hope that he does something you want. That doesn't make any sense. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I think that's fair. There's this John Lear interview where, again, this is, it's impossible to parse what the hell is going on with that guy. Look, I have told, I have heard John Lear tell my story and it is so wrong. It's unbelievable. It's unbelievable. I mean, he puts, I mean, he inserts himself in there in a prominent position, you know, well, I got Bob, you know, to get the job to here and this, and what are you talking?

2:23:55It's completely inaccurate. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And he in this interview, he says, like, yeah, Admiral McClellan, who was a Navy admiral, came to me and he was MJ level. You know, MJ, obviously, in the UFO lore would be like the elite, you know, kind of committee that governs this whole topic. Came to me and he said, we got to get Bob on the job because we know that we can hide his. In some ways, it's corroborating your story because it's saying, like, no, he was there. He was at S4. He was working on this stuff. But we need to get Bob specifically because we know we can have plausible deniability because they'll never be able to find his MIT records.

2:24:36It turns out that MJ-1, the head of MJ-12, is a guy named Admiral Mike McClellan. He wanted to get some of the information out because he didn't want to, he thought that some of this information should be out in the public. We don't need to keep all this secrecy. So he decided trying to figure out a way to get it to the public. So he knew that I was a blabbermouth and I would tell anything I knew. They investigated Bob Lazar and they knew that he was a genius. but that he had a background such that they could instantly discredit him. And then I, so I thought about that for a while and I was like, what the, what is this?

2:25:20And I don't, I couldn't even find an Admiral McClellan. And then. I've heard that name before, but. You have. That's interesting that you've heard it. Yeah. I have definitely heard the name. It could have come from John Lear, but I don't know. I mean, And the thing is, some of the stuff he's saying absolutely can be true or absolutely cannot. Totally. I don't know. But, I mean, you know, I love the guy. He was a great friend. He just thinks differently. And, I mean, it's sad he died. I wish I had spent more time with him. Yeah. But after I moved, it was just impractical. But, yeah, I mean, if you're talking about statements John Lear made, boy, it's tough.

2:26:00It's really tough to find out what's accurate and what's not. It's decoding the Voynich manuscript or something. Yeah, yeah. But yeah, no, he's a complicated guy. So I think, and we talked about this a little last night, and maybe this is an interesting follow-up for this show, is I think he might have been talking about a guy named Mike McConnell, who became NSA director later. But he was involved in some S4 Area 51 stuff related to Dan Barish, whose story, I think, honestly holds up a lot less than your story. But it has to be noted because it's one other guy who's mentioning S4. And so Mike McConnell's kind of involved there, and he was a Navy Admiral at the time.

2:26:47So I think about that and I'm like, I wonder if Mike McConnell was somewhat involved. When you came out as Dennis, was that a shot across the bow against Dennis Mariani? Yeah, sure was. So you were trying to kind of get at him a little bit? Yeah. Yeah. What were your feelings towards him kind of personally? Were you resentful or were you, yeah, how'd you feel towards him? I guess somewhat resentful. I don't know. It's hard to tap into how I felt back then. Yeah. Why do you think, and I know, Luigi, you might have some theories here too, why do you think Dennis wanted to meet up with you at the end of this whole saga?

2:27:35At the casino. And then you meet up with him at the casino, and then you're speaking to him and Gene Huff is looking, and he's just not even looking at you. What is that about? I don't know. I think Dennis really had something to say. And I don't know. I don't know if people from S4 got there and changed his mind. I don't know if he intentionally wanted me to go out there just to get me away from the house. I really don't know. Because you got back to the house and something had been taken. Yeah, things were missing, yeah. Anything of consequence? Yeah, yeah. You can talk about it. No. Okay. So, you know, I mean, I don't know.

2:28:20It's all guesswork. Yeah. I mean, when we when we sat down, even Gene Huff, I spoke to Gene Huff about that. And Gene's perspective to that was he saw Bob walk up to Dennis. And it's it's an important part because I always think about the fact that Gene Huff was there. Joe was also there. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, we all had eyes on him, yeah. And what Gene said was, you know, Bob Lazar walks up to this guy, Dennis, this blonde, you know, military-looking guy, and Bob's talking to him, and the guy's not even looking at him. And that caught Gene's attention. It's like, you know, if Bob was making that up, what did he do?

2:29:00Just pick out a guy out of nowhere and starts talking? If the guy was a nobody, he would have turned around and go, like, what do you want? Yeah, he would have been like, stop talking. Yeah, no, I mean, I kept saying, Dennis, Dennis, I'm here. You know, what do you want? What's going on? I don't remember my exact words, but he never even looked up at me. And, yeah, I just walked over to Gene and said, he's, I don't know what the deal is with Dennis. We both turned around and he was gone. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. That's so interesting. So, I wonder, a part of me wonders if he himself wanted to come out after you or something.

2:29:40or there was something he needed. Unfortunately, it's all speculation. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He could have wanted to come out. He might have been part of, well, let's get Bob out of a house. Yeah. There's a thousand, but there's no direction to go in. I mean, that was so striking from the documentaries. They put a, your gun was set up in your own car and the doors were open in the parking lot, right? And then you walked in. Yeah, that happened more than once. That's scary, man. Yeah. Did you? Yeah, and I mean, we would lock it and test the door because it had happened before and go, all right, it's locked.

2:30:15It's locked. Locked. Check every single thing. Okay, Mario, it's locked. It's locked. Okay, we go into the gym, we come back out, everything's open. Was there ever a moment where you were like, over 50 % I might get assassinated? Yeah, because it's why I said we have to look under the car, see if there's something wired in there or a bomb. I mean, we were even afraid. The only thing that wasn't open, I think, was the hood where the engine was. So we were afraid to open that, you know, and finally did, but looked over the car. But yeah, I was afraid there was a bomb on there or somebody wired it up.

2:30:57But as George said, I think they were just screwing with me. And Mario, you know, Mario talked a lot with him and we we we really, really spent a lot of time. And it's hard to try. He also kept saying it's really hard to, like, explain and express what that worry was because I was with he said I was with Bob all the time and we were scared that something was going to blow up. And he says, I was so going through my hard times that I didn't care. I just told Bob, stay out and I'll try it. And he would start the car because he was like, fuck it, I'm going to do it. But you could sense that even from Mario's perspective, there was a real worry.

2:31:40And so, you know, this is something that clearly was causing a lot of worry, not just for you, but for Mario as well. Because like, what the hell is going on? And the doors are unlocked again. And, you know, why are they doing this? So clearly you think something could go wrong. So whether they were trying to just intimidate or do something, whatever that was, it was happening according to these guys. Did you get the sense that there were maybe mob ties? Like there was some, you know, they talk about the UFO legacy program sometimes like it's a cartel or like a mafia. that exists outside of the state did you get this and obviously you're you know going back and forth from vegas and vegas is a hot spot for that sort of thing did you ever get that that sense not that it was the mob per se yeah but it was like these guys were disconnected from the government yeah they were like their own yeah they were their own cabal you kind of get that but like even i feel like john lear was like like he had you know there's a picture with him and g gordon litty Do you know who that is?

2:32:52Yeah, I know the name. I don't remember who he is. He's this FBI agent who was this kind of agent provocateur who was very involved in Watergate and stuff. And you get the sense that that whole world, like the people, the Mormons who were around Howard Hughes and there was a lot of mob, you know, there's a lot of mob activity there. And it was like they were kind of like you could you could see a civilian government official calling them and then being like, fuck off is the vibe. yeah yeah yeah we're doing our thing yeah is undeniable yeah yeah you think so yeah yeah i'm 100 on that yeah i know you've also because you know you live in montreal and there's stuff there and i'm sure you you've bumped into things people yeah i i i always talk about it when when i talk when i hear about all these government organizations and government secrets and the intelligence community.

2:33:47And I think a lot of researchers and a lot of people researching this should also pay attention to what organized crime did back then, back in the 60s, the 70s, the 80s, the 90s, and how those organizations operated and what they did. Because it's a very similar way of keeping secrets. And, you know, I think that there is some tie somewhere. I'm not saying that they're involved in, they're in charge of anything. That's not what I'm saying. But I'm saying there is clear motivation for somebody who's trying to keep a secret to have ties with, let's say, the mob so that if ever something or somebody does start going too rogue, well, you could basically scare that person and say, well, you know, these guys will come after you.

2:34:40And that'll scare somebody more than a lawyer will come after you. That's right. Well, it seems like they were going after your marriage. And it's all blackmail techniques. That's what it feels like. It's compromise systems. And you look at. Yeah, they weren't taking the legal angle at all. No. Which is really if you want to enforce something, that's the way you do it. Which is pretty wild. I mean, you see the stuff with the Epstein thing, too, where it's just they're just clearly is this distributed kind of compromise system. and it deals with spooky science. I don't know if you're tracking any of this stuff, but like.

2:35:18Yeah, I started looking into it. Isn't it wild? Yeah, it's really wild. And then he says. And it's so widespread. It's widespread. And here's what's crazy. He's interviewed by Steve Bannon and Epstein is. This is at the end of his life. Yeah. And he goes, why did you put Zorro Ranch where you put it? And he goes, well, you know, a bunch of Los Alamos physicists were retiring. And so, you know, they were kind of aging out. And I wanted to speak with them. Los Alamos, which was the high energy lab up in New Mexico, was losing all its scientists. And you bought your property out in New Mexico to be near that?

2:35:56Yes, because the scientists were going to be, they cut the funding for high energy physics. And you're like, oh my God, how lax is our DOE, you know, Department of Energy Security. And then you realize, you know, Bill Richardson was kind of in with the Clintons and he was Secretary of Energy. And he's there and he's just systematically siphoning American nuclear secrets. And then he goes, there's another email where he said, I killed pons back in the day or whatever. And he's talking about pons and Fleischman who are claiming to get cold fusion results. And so it's like, what is Epstein dealing with cold fusion?

2:36:31And then he's hanging out at Harvard with the math department. None of that makes any sense. It's weird. None of that makes any sense. Really strange. I used to drive by that ranch all the time. I lived really close to it when I lived in New Mexico. Yeah. And they always called it the Victoria's Secret Ranch because there were models there. Yeah. Everyone knew that as the Victoria's Secret Ranch. So you would drive by Epstein's Ranch and they would call it the Victoria's Secret Ranch. Yeah, you could see. I mean, not right by it, but as you drive it on the road, you can see it up on that. Yeah.

2:36:58Well, you know why they called it that? It's because he was close with Les Wexner, who was the CEO and founder of Victoria's Secret. Yeah. Oh, okay. So you would drive by there and they would call it that? Everybody called it that, yeah. No way. We'd drive up to Los Alamos to pick up alpha radiation probes that my company did. And, you know, we'd come back. But, yeah, every time we drove out, we passed by it a couple of times. That's so nuts. Damn. So what do you do? Because, like, it's also for the people that are like, disbelieve your stuff. It's like, look at all this bizarre. it's like this cabal is controlling science or something you know it's so weird that is really weird yeah and it's again you know i'll say it it's it's it's just we're just talking about epstein that's one guy that's one guy it's not just one guy clearly not no it's not it's not just one guy yeah it's just not it's not i mean he might have been the ringleader but it's uh There's a lot of people.

2:38:00Or he might have been an extension of something much. Yeah, he could be. But he was obsessed with the Casimir effect and he would hold these. Oh, he was? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. He would hold these gravity conferences. And then the very fact that he's saying. I mean, do you know that for a fact? Yeah, this is all in the emails. This is all a fact. Yeah, there's an old colleague of mine, Eric Weinstein. It mentions the Casimir effect? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. So this old colleague of mine, Eric Weinstein, has this theory of everything in physics where you know involves gauging gravity instead of quantizing gravity beyond my pay grade but i find it interesting um and and epstein like somehow knew about his theory before like just about anybody else did and so so weinstein's like how is epstein so tied in with the harvard math department like you think it was just his hobby or something like science was his hobby and he just had money so he uh no ability to connect to these i think there you read his emails and it's like there's somebody behind him who knew exactly what to look for and but he didn't know he was like a low level version of it and so he'll say things like you need to boost your physics time is much weirder than you think it's actually just a function of the vibration of cesium atoms and you're like how who's giving you this stuff you know and then he's sort of like mining people for the info and weird.

2:39:23I mean, did he, he said that? He said that. Yeah. Which is true. It is kind of atomic clock. It's an atomic clock. It's just a vibrating season. So yeah, I mean, it, it's true. I don't know if that's what time is, but it's our perception of time. Time is very weird, isn't it? Wouldn't you say on a, in a, just from a pure physics perspective, it's, it's a weird, it's an anomaly. It's strange. Yeah. like like it's we can't it's the most used noun in the english language but we can only define it with respect to the movement of macroscopic bodies or to oscillations on an electromagnetic wave but it's not like a it's a thing that we're like it's almost like fish in a fish bowl where like the fish are trying to even describe what water is but they don't they can't because they're in it Yeah.

2:40:12And that we're in time. Yeah. You have to be outside of it to describe it. I mean, that's, that's it. And you can't be outside. It's just, it's just a concept that makes us happy is what time is. Do you think that there's something about time being weird that might help explain some of the UFO stuff? Yeah. I think there's, there's definitely something there. Yeah. Because if gravity's off. There's gigantic chunks that are missing from physics. and uh i think some people have access to that yeah i think so too yeah i mean the um cosmic red the other thing that this guy burkhardheim says is that the cosmic red shift is the repulsive form of gravity and if you look at dark energy you could literally just look it up it's like this it's not one of the four fundamental forces but it's just you know the universe is inflating it's like energy really exists right yeah yeah that's and dark matter i'm not i'm yeah i'm not really buying either one of dark matter's never been detected but it's it's just there to it's a placeholder to justify gravity's weakness yes yeah yeah and then i mean to me that's i always viewed that's what gravitons were that's why this caught my attention because he's yeah back on the graviton bandwagon well gravitons are interesting because as early as the fifties, you know, there's all this like crazy hardcore anti-gravity research and then it kind of disappears.

2:41:39Yeah. But you had a bunch of people saying we're going to be gravity. It's right around the bend. There's a guy named George Trimble, who was a VP at Martin corporations, RIAs research for Institute for advanced study. And he was this really wacky thinker. And, um, he worked with Lewis Witten and probably Townsend Brown. And, um, you know, they would say like, it was, it's going to take us the time that it took to build the atom bomb to basically beat gravity. And they were, Stanley Desser and Richard Arnowit, who were famous physicists at the time from Princeton, were talking about gravitons.

2:42:11And they were like, we have a very clear theory of gravitons and we know how to do this. And the two things that come up for gravity, where there's a lot of smoke, but no fire, is the thing we just talked about with Buehler, extremely high electric field differentials, creating thrust. And then the second thing is very fast rotating spinning superconductors. Those two things seem to have But is that actually gravity? So there's another force 30 years has gone by And I've kind of been doing my own research And I'm just more convinced that I'm right about that And can you say anything about that?

2:42:54What do you think you're right about? That there's another force and it's not gravity And what is the, if you were to characterize that force as distinct from gravity, so gravity, clearly you'd have all these other byproduct effects, the photons and what, what's, what does this force do that's different? What is it, what does it look like? Well, it's a repelling force. But I think it's something that works closer to the way you would think in a science fiction movie. You can have gravity and anti-gravity, but you really can. I think gravity is just an attractive force. I think this other force, you can, to simplify it, push or pull.

2:43:39And I think it also affects the flow of time exactly like gravity does. I think it affects light. It does some of the observations you would have with gravity would also overlap in this other force. But I think it's a unique force. Have you ever measured this force?

2:44:04next question um

2:44:11all right yeah you have yeah yeah how have you measured oh no no there's no follow-up question okay okay okay okay fine fine fine um is there anything uh kind of high level that you can say as far as the goal of your research, you know, post the experience? Like what you would love to do? Oh, just to duplicate anything. Just to duplicate anything? Yeah. Okay. I'm sure I can. You think you can? Yeah, I'm sure I can. You feel confident? I'm 100 % confident. Yeah, I'm going to, yeah. Have you already gotten some interesting results? Yeah. Okay. That's why I'm 100 % confident. Yeah, the thing is just to scale stuff up.

2:44:51Okay. What do you hope your legacy is? So like 200 years from now, a kid. No one's going to know who I am. I don't think that's right, man. Think about it. Like if there are these, you know, this lineage of technology that is completely separate. Come on, I'm going to be overwritten by people. Look, there's other Bob Lazarus and things that are going to come along. Look what's happening. All the people that came out since then, you know, there's going to be other people like me. eventually some more of this is going to come out. And yeah, they're amazing. They're amazing people who've come out since you first and foremost.

2:45:27Yeah. And there's going to be bigger, more important ones that you just aren't going to look back to the 80s and think you're just going to focus on those guys. Well, I would put it the invert. I would say if you have like an army of people coming out after you, the fact that you're the first makes it even more interesting. I think it's more likely you'd be forgotten if no one comes out after you. Do you hope to vindicate your own experience through your own scientific experimentation? Yeah, I do. Yeah, I do. That's exciting. That's cool. But I have no idea what other people are doing. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

2:46:03But I know exactly what not to do. That's what we did it us for. So it's actually a big leap forward.

2:46:16And you saw one hanging up against the wall? Yeah, it was sitting on the wall and it had, there's actually an error in the movie. It has one hole in the rim of it. Not two. But yeah, there was just a hole with it bent out, clearly bent out as if it was shot from the bottom. Why do you think, oh, it looked like it was shot. Yeah. Interesting. So do you think it was shot with like a kinetic weapon, mechanical weapon? No, no question. Wow. And do you think it was a human weapon that shot it? I don't know. It looks like something we would have done to stand it up, shoot through it, see how we can penetrate this material.

2:46:53Wow. Have you ever heard anything about like electromagnetic pulses and UFOs and them taking out UFOs, taking them down or anything? Well, that was the other directive of the project. It was. Directed energy. well yeah it depends what you're talking about there's i mean our directive was duplicate the propulsion system at any cost is directive one and directive two was be able to disable the system at a distance at any cost do you think then so that's somewhat directed energy but then there's also project sidekick which is a weapon so that's also directed energy so yeah it kind of depends where you're going with that i guess had you heard of any ufos prior to that getting shot down with directed energy with electromagnetic pull okay i think the only thing i ever heard prior to that was stories about the roswell craft getting hit by lightning and crashing or something I think it's the only.

2:48:03Are there any of these stories like like do you think that Roswell happened? Are there any of these stories you lend credence to? I don't know much about the the Roswell crash other than, you know, what I've what I've heard. But it sure seems like they were working real hard to cover something up. That's true. The Roswell crash was not one crash. It was it was not in one place only, though. It might have been a round of two. Yeah. Yeah. I really think it was, there was something that happened in the air and there's like debris that was scattered all over Mac Brazel's ranch. And then there was the actual pod with the beings that was crashed.

2:48:46I think it was like a two miles away where the hikers found it with the kids that were hiking. And so clearly it was two different places and the bamboo, the pieces that looked like bamboo with the writing on it. That was at, mac brazzle with the the memory metal and then the pod the only information we have of that is the bodies and one of them was already being eaten by some uh animals no way yeah he's being one of them one of from what i remember reading and at the time there's one of them was obviously dead and it was decaying like there was an it was clearly some animals that got to it whoa so So I hadn't heard that.

2:49:30But the only thing I remember about that was Jesse Marcel was the officer. Yeah. Right. And he said when, you know, they came to take pictures or the pictures they took, he said, that wasn't the stuff that we found. Whoa. What General Rami. Yeah. He said, yeah, they replaced it with these. He said, that's not what we found. Well, that's the guy. And there's that iconic photo and it's him with this tinfoil-y weather balloon thing. Yeah, he said that. He claims that the material was right off to the side of the frame. It's so interesting. Yeah, that's not the stuff. And his son, who's an Air Force flight surgeon, said that he took the material home and he played with the material, which is crazy.

2:50:12Yeah, on the kitchen table with his wife, yeah. And here's where stuff gets even crazier. In 1949, there is a contract between Battelle Memorial Institute and Wright Airfield, which turns into Wright-Patterson, which is where the wreckage, the Roswell wreckage, was rumored to be taken. And it's like around alloys, like titanium, different titanium alloys and this titanium nickel alloy. And nitinol. Nitinol. Nitinol. Yeah. Nitinol, as you know. Memory metal. Is basically memory metal. And nitinol was classified, essentially, showed up in a Navy lab in the 60s. Yeah. And that's what Jesse Marcel describes the material as.

2:50:52Yeah, because that's really indestructible stuff. Yes. And I remember him saying, in his vernacular, we whacked that as hard as we could, you know, right? And it didn't bend. They tried to burn it. They tried to cut into it. Yeah. And it just goes back into its original shape. And I just actually interviewed. Yeah, it's one of the, I mean, you can take that metal and flex it a million times and it doesn't crack. It's what they, I mean, they use that in artificial hearts because it can keep flexing and it just doesn't wear. It's wild. And then you have Philip Corso saying that he helped dole out a lot of this material and it made it into the civil sector because of his position.

2:51:43He was, you know, Pentagon's like, you know, foreign technology desk or whatever chief. And so you have this contract from 49. Nobody knew what Nittanol was. Nittanol was. And then in the 60s, it appears in public randomly at a Navy lab. It's interesting. That's really interesting. I never heard any of that. And I just interviewed a guy who was a witness, actually, of the Varginha crash in the 1990s, 1996 in Brazil. And he says the same thing. He says he held the material in his hands and it went, he would kind of mess with it and then it would go back into its original form. So did you ever experience anything like that with the material, with material that would go back into its original form?

2:52:24Did you hear anything about that? No, other than working with nitinol. Yeah. But you did work with nitinol. I sell it. But you didn't work with it at S4? No, not at S4. Okay, so you didn't hear anything around that there? No, not a peep. Did you hear anything about any other materials? No, that's material science. We're not allowed to know that stuff. Oh, okay. So that was a whole other interesting. Yeah, which is really stupid. And you saw a photo or photos of an alien autopsy, right? Yeah, if in fact that was true. Do you think? Yeah, it was part of the briefing. What did the photos look like?

2:53:05I guess if you want to call it a gray, something small. It had a T-cut in the chest, and there was one single organ removed from the chest. Was that kind of a visceral experience for you? Was that kind of gnarly, or were you like, eh, whatever? No, at this point I'm going, what am I looking through? Yeah. You know, it was just kind of all glancing through, like, give me a break. There were rumors that the program was going to maybe move to Indonesia or Southeast Asia when you were leaving? No, no, they were anxious to move the project out of there completely. and you know ideally they said they would have loved to go out to the south pacific maybe quadulent island or something but they said the expenses would have been so great it's just impossible but they just wanted to get away from eyes it's just too close to things if you had to guess do you think that the program is completely out of area 51 and in some foreign place now yeah i don't i don't believe it's there anymore that would make sense yeah i don't believe it's I think that moved way long ago.

2:54:24Yeah. And you discovered Element 115, right? It wasn't discovered. It's something Barry and I were working on. Okay. So, I mean, you can't really say I discovered it. Okay, okay. You know. Oh, I thought your contribution was that you discovered. Our contribution. It was what I was doing. Okay, okay. Yeah, but what I can't say, it was just me. What technique? But it was the, God, what the hell was it that we were using? Oh, atomic absorption spectroscopy. Atomic absorption spectroscopy. Spectroscopy, yeah. And you did that. Yeah, yeah. I mean, we had the equipment there. We also had something to do X-ray diffraction, too.

2:55:05Wow. Yeah, it wasn't, Barry was much more familiar with the equipment. Wow. But you don't know the exact isotope? No. Did you know it at one point? Like when you discovered it? Yeah, yeah. You did? Yeah, yeah. But you forgot the isotope? Yeah, I have no idea. Oh, man. Because that would be... Yeah, I know. It would really help. It would really help. It would also be a Nobel Prize for you. It would be like, oh, my God, they figured out like a new isotope at that level. No, but I'd have to be able to produce it or... Sure. You know, I do. Right, right, right. So it doesn't matter anyway. I mean, but, you know, the lab in Darmstadt, Germany, produced, you know, a few atoms of 115.

2:55:44so i mean that they discovered 115 yes so i mean they they made it you know we yeah we recognized it yeah yeah yeah so but if you i don't think it would help you because it's not like you know the way we try to synthesize um you know new elements is you know taking ions and smashing them together and it's kind of whatever comes out comes out it's not like you can go we're gonna make a specific isotope and make it all stick together. It's just like, you know, it's the old smashing the Swiss watch against a concrete wall. Ooh, look what came out. You know, that's it. If you possibly took a little bit home though, could you do some of those techniques again and do it?

2:56:27No, I couldn't. You couldn't because you don't have the equipment. I can't, yeah. You need the equipment. I mean, you need the equipment like, you know, accelerators and things. That's something like that. So you wouldn't have the stable isotope at home. Yeah. Thank you. Or you do, or maybe. Well, I don't have it at my house. Okay. If that's what you're asking. But didn't you, at one point, maybe take it home? Yeah. So that, but then. Are we recording? Yeah, but. So no. So no. Okay. Okay, okay, okay. Yeah. But then can't, but then can you figure out the isotope? If theoretically you did? Or no?

2:57:09Yeah. Okay. Yeah, you could. All I'd have to do is have it again. Okay. Oh, I see. That's a bummer.

2:57:26I hosted a debate between Eric Weinstein and Eric Davis. Eric Weinstein's this former colleague of mine who's a physicist, and then Eric Davis is this other guy in UFO World who focuses on exotic propulsion. Weinstein said that he was kind of exasperated. He was like, why are there no theoretical physicists on the program? But you talk about theoretical physicists on site at S4. Oh, for sure. Okay. I think they were exhausted by him. And I think they kept going over that road and never got anywhere. And they were looking for just, let's just do something out of left field and see what we come up with.

2:58:04So, no, I don't know. Again, that's what made me think, this isn't gravity at all. This is a new force entirely. Yeah. And you know what I found interesting to you is you said bismuth seemed to have come up. Like that was something. There is something about bismuth.

2:58:24You might be starting to notice a through line starting to emerge in this conversation. And it keeps leading back to the same place. To put it bluntly, Bob's work at S-4 looks a whole lot like all of the documented knowledge we have on anti-gravity experiments done in the last 100 years. Now again, these claims don't lie in the realm of conventional proven science. But while there's no proverbial fire, there is a whole lot of smoke around them. I'm talking not only of the experiments of Townsend Brown, but of Eugene Pakletinov, Ning Li, and others. And one single element might tie all of these stories together.

2:59:05Bismuth. There's a reason why Bob Lazar kept hearing about it at S4. Here's why bismuth matters. We'll break down the science as clearly as we can. It starts with something called a K factor. A K factor, or dielectric constant, is simply a material's ability to store and discharge electric fields. Now this has important implications for historical antigravity experiments. You see, the higher the K factor, the more thrust or propulsion you see in Townsend Brown's capacitor experiments. Brown spent his career searching for high K materials that could amplify the effect he'd discovered. Bismuth is one of them, and it's often mentioned in the context of his antigravity work.

2:59:48There's even an interview from this guy Lewis Witten, who's at RIAS, which is Martin corporation, pre-Lockheed merger, their anti-gravity outfit, where they were studying sort of the most exotic propulsion modalities. And he says in this interview with the American Institute of Physics, there's a guy named Townsend who claimed to have an isotope of bismuth that repelled instead of attracted. Material that works well for historical anti-gravity experiments comes up in the UFO reverse engineering program. Go figure. But it gets weirder. Bismuth and element 115, muscovium, share the same number of valence electrons.

3:00:28Valence electrons are the electrons in the outermost shell of an atom, the ones that determined how an element bonds, reacts, and behaves chemically. Bismuth has five. Muscovium, or element 115, has five. They sit in the same column of the periodic table, group 15, which means they have essentially the same chemical personality, the same bonding geometry, the same family of crystal structures, the same tendency to form the layered compounds that produce the most exotic quantum behavior known to material science. Lazar described Element 115 as the fuel source for the Kraft's propulsion system. Mind you, this was in 1989, before Element 115 had ever been synthesized or named.

3:01:14When it finally was synthesized in 2003, it turned out to be a nictogen, a group 15 element, the same chemical family as bismuth. And bismuth is basically the most electromagnetically bizarre stable element on Earth. That's either the most chemically literate lucky guess in history, or it isn't a guess at all. Now here's where the science gets genuinely strange. Bismuth is one of the most unusual elements on the periodic table. Most high-K materials are passive. They sit there, holding charge, and do nothing else. Bismuth is different. It fights back. Expose bismuth to a magnetic field, and instead of being attracted the way iron pushes towards a magnet, it pushes away.

3:01:59This property is called diamagnetism, and bismuth has more of it than any other stable element on Earth. Not slightly more, dramatically, anomalously, inexplicably more. The reason lives inside the atom itself. Every electron does two things simultaneously. It orbits the nucleus like a planet around a star, and it spins on its own axis like a tiny top. In lighter elements, these two motions barely register each other. But bismuth sits near the bottom of the periodic table at element 83, one of the heaviest stable elements that exists. And in super-heavy elements, something extraordinary happens.

3:02:43The electrons in the outer shell move so fast that they enter what physicists call the relativistic regime. They're traveling at a meaningful fraction of the speed of light. And when something moves that fast, the universe starts playing by different rules. At those speeds, Einstein's physics takes over from Newton's. One consequence is that these screaming, hurling outer electrons generate a powerful magnetic field just from their own motion. And that magnetic field slams into their own spin. This is a process called spin-orbit coupling. And in bismuth, it's ferociously strong. So strong that bismuth's electrons become, in a sense, magnetically self-aware.

3:03:30Generating an opposing field in response to anything applied to them from the outside. So that's why bismuth has anomalous diamagnetism. The electrons aren't just passive, they're pushing back. The most amazing thing is leaning into it, putting all your force on that. Nothing moves at all. And when the reactor's off, you can easily slide it. This also makes bismuth a natural topological doping, meaning when you introduce it into certain crystalline materials, it induces what physicists call topologically protected quantum states. These are electron states so geometrically locked into the structure of the material that they can't be destroyed by disorder or impurities.

3:04:14They are, in a very real sense, protected by the shape of reality itself. Element 115, with the same five outer electrons as bismuth, would have dramatically stronger relativistic effects, and it would theoretically be an even more powerful topological doping, best hosted, physicists predict, in chalcogenide crystal structures, which happen to be the exact crystal family that bismuth-based topological insulators already prefer. Same column, same electrons, the dial just turned up to a level we've never engineered.

3:04:54Okay, I know what you're thinking. How do you get from this exotic chemistry jargon to UFO propulsion, or a force that bends spacetime? Well, here's where the chemistry ends, and something bigger begins. In Einstein's general relativity, energy and momentum in all forms, including the energy stored in fast-spinning relativistic electrons, technically curves spacetime. Every electron is, in the most literal physical sense, warping the fabric of the universe around it.

3:05:33Now, for ordinary matter, this effect is so incomprehensibly tiny, it effectively doesn't exist. But a small group of serious physicists began asking dangerous questions in the 1990s. What if, instead of spinning randomly in all directions, their gravitational effects canceling each other into noise. You could align them into a single coherent state, all pointing in the same direction, all pushing together. This was the life's work of Dr. Ning Li, a physicist who dared to dabble in antigravity. More specifically, she worked in gravitomagnetic theory. Li was a woman who eventually left her position at the University of Alabama Huntsville to work full-time at Redstone arsenal.

3:06:20On research so sensitive, it effectively vanished from public view. And the chair of her department at University of Alabama Huntsville, Larry Smalley, was so high conviction in her work that he left with her. Before she died, Lee proposed that in superconductors, materials where electrons surrender their individual identities and merge into a collective quantum state, the gravitomagnetic effect of those electrons, normally washed away by thermal chaos, would suddenly snap into alignment. They'd become coherent, directional. She was trying to build a gravity engine in a laboratory. Let's compare that with Bob Lazar's work on UFOs in the 80s.

3:07:02Years before Ning Li's work ever became public, Lazar described three cylindrical emitters at the base of a craft. The emitters at the base of Lazar's craft didn't produce thrust in the traditional sense. They didn't push against air or expel mass. They generated a directed alteration of the gravitational field itself that the craft would then just fall into. Not propulsion, geometry. The craft didn't move through space. It literally bent space, and space carried it. That description organized field-generating devices producing a directional gravitational effect by aligning and focusing a force that normally cancels itself to zero is structurally almost precisely what Ning Li was theorizing in a laboratory thousands of miles away using completely different source material arriving at exactly the same place years later.

3:07:57When the craft is in operation, there is a high voltage detectable on the skin of the craft. And then there's the hull of the craft. Lazar said that he believed the craft's hull material was an electorate, basically a material that permanently stores an electric field, the electrical equivalent of a permanent magnet. I think the material the craft is made from is an electric. And so it always, just like a magnet always has a magnetic field to it, an electric always has an electrostatic field to it. Interesting. And I think that's certainly something important. Again, bismuth titanate is one of the finest electric materials known, used in high-temperature sensor applications precisely because of its stability.

3:08:43Now, if you were designing a hull material for a craft that needed to interact with gravity wave emitters, maintain a permanent electric field, and respond to both electric and magnetic stimuli simultaneously, the material that checks every single box is bismuth ferrite. That's right, again with the bismuth. It's a material that is simultaneously ferroelectric and magnetic, where the two properties talk to each other, where you can control one with the other. No other readily available material sits at the intersection of diamagnetism, topological insulator behavior, high-K dielectrics, electric properties, and multi-ferroic coupling simultaneously.

3:09:26but bismuth does. And a theoretical stable version of element 115 might do all of those things on steroids. Bismuth sits right at the edge of where relativistic electron behavior begins to dominate everything.

3:09:45By the time you get to Muscovium, you might have full-fledged space-time engineering. And then what's really interesting is Gary Nolan has this magnesium bismuth piece in his lab at Stanford. You'd need some sort of motive to, you know, in certain cases, heavier elements create isotope ratios that you just don't find. It doesn't make any sense from like any. And then it also the thing was found alongside of like an observed anomaly in the sky and a crash. and it was like in the 50s or 60s, like one of which was literally a beach in Brazil, Ubatuba. And the similarity between Brown and Buehler's anti-gravity and Lazar's sports model don't stop there.

3:10:28Brown would use DC pulsing and like, you know, kind of high climb rates of the voltage. So the voltage would be a steep climb rate where it would, you know, increase very, very sharply. The microsizing waveguides for terahertz, you could have very high frequency, you know, energy going into the craft. There's something about bismuth, I think, that's undiscovered. Yes. And so much that we're unable to do because it's at the limit, you know, of our technology. Bismuth at S4. Bismuth in Townsend Brown's experiments. Bismuth's properties in Ning Li's gravitomagnetic theory. Bismuth as an ideal hull material for a UFO exactly like the one Lazar described.

3:11:16Bismuth in the UFO samples that Stanford professor Gary Nolan is analyzing right now. The preponderance of evidence now and the Department of Defense admitting that these things are real. That the data is real. There's no conclusions. Yeah. The data is real.

3:11:42There's so much more than there was 40 years ago. Yeah. I mean, all these guys are at the cunning edge. All my information is so old and probably outdated. So who knows how the craft operate now or what kind of craft they're using or if they're even manned. So I think everything I know is outdated. It's just interesting to look back at. I don't take any money from this stuff. And as far as attention, I hate fucking attention. I don't like being on shows. I just want to kind of hide in the corner and do my own thing. So I got enough hugs when I was a kid.

3:12:23And do you feel like you've, you know, on the first Rogan episode, you had migraines. Do you feel like you've suffered, like your anxiety levels are higher than they would be? Yeah, I've had five heart attacks since I was on the Hoke Rogan's. And my arteries are clear. It's all stress. I'm sorry, man. I just had shingles all through my face. It almost made me go blind. Again, it was from stress. Yeah, it just wears you down over time. I hope you know you're loved and appreciated. And you should be able to just zone out the world with where you're at in life right now. and just enjoy the fruits of this amazing.

3:13:07That would be cool. I am so hoping to be able to retire at some point where I don't have to deal with insane customers. Yeah. I could just sit at home and read books like this. I think that time is very, very soon, and I think it's the best use of your brain power, too, because I want to see. I'd actually like to get back into this stuff. That'd be amazing. Well, I'll send you interesting people. Okay. Yeah, well, I'll consume everything you can send. I love it. Oh, yeah. To be careful what you wish for.

3:13:44Well, Bob Luigi, this was a total honor. And you should be so proud because I know you were into this stuff. I feel very lucky when people say, like, oh, like, you should feel vindicated. They'll say that to me. And I'm like, what the fuck are you talking about? I was like, I got very lucky with the timing of, like, when I got into this stuff. But truly, I speak to you and I'm like, oh, my God. Like, there are people like yourself who have been into this stuff for decades in a totally thankless way. Like, not only thankless, but less than thankless, ostracized, exiled, laughed at constantly. And so to anybody out there saying Luigi's cashing in on a movie or something like that, fuck off.

3:14:32Like you don't know what you're talking about. It is, it's, it's poetic justice and karma that you made this movie truly. So I want you to know that, that I appreciate that. man. Did you ever think that we'd be here now that like we'd be, you know, on, on our podcast watching you on Joe Rogan with Bob yesterday. When you guys were talking, I was reading a message from my sister. Veronica who's been It's hard for me to see it that way Because you can't imagine Everything that happened And for me to get it from her Is like the biggest success Because I put her in danger Because of this And I didn't know if it was going to work I still don't know where it's going But We just went for it, knowing that, you know, all the past, there's a lot of negative associated to it.

3:15:41And I'm so proud of the team. I'm proud of Chris Mato. That's like my right hand and all. It wouldn't exist if it wasn't for Chris. It wouldn't exist if it wasn't for Veronica. It wouldn't exist if it wasn't for Emily that was at the office taking care of everything. We all know who that is. it wouldn't exist for Vanessa to be doing all this minutia work online and finding all we wouldn't have found the Ed Teller tape if it wasn't for Vanessa and this was scary this is this project depleted your company to zero to zero and we were attacked nobody knows this but we were attacked ferociously for over a year and a half yeah and we're I know the full story and we probably can't get too into the weeds, but I'll just say high level.

3:16:34There was some really crazy, scary fuckery that occurred with you on an institutional like debanking level kind of thing. Big time. Where it's like, what sort of power do these people have as far as the antibodies going against you? And unbelievable stuff. Yeah, stuff that all the... if you say it, it sounds so crazy that you don't want to say it because people won't. Yeah. They're like, give me a break. Come on. Have you, have you experienced that your whole life? Have you experienced like little things like that? Yeah. Any, but I didn't expect this to happen to Luigi. Yeah. Not coming from those people.

3:17:17Yeah. Getting, you know, or demanding Luigi. We want all your communications with Bob Lazar. Yeah. On a court document. On a court document. Yeah, we went, what the hell are you talking about? Have you ever gotten something like, sir, we can't accept your payment here? You're like, what? Anything like that? It's a little weird. What do you mean we can't accept? Like something like that, you know, something like there's something going on in the background of some routine thing you're trying to do. Go to a bank, you go to, you know, a store. Oh, and we're just, we don't want to deal with it. We don't want to deal with you.

3:17:50And you're like, why? Yeah, I mean, that was a long time ago. A couple things like that happened. Decades ago. Do you remember? Nothing now. I don't remember specifically. But people kind of messing with you. But yeah, on an official level, they said, you know, you're radioactive. We don't want to deal with you. That's tough, man. Well, you found the one gig you could get, which is selling a lot of this crazy stuff. It's cool. Well, this has been such an honor. I really appreciate you both. And it's always fun coming. It's always fun, Jesse. It's always great, man. OK, so there are orange reddish UFOs that have been flying around Area 51 since the 80s and 90s that wobble like they're on a wave at low altitudes.

3:18:37The sports model UFO Bob worked on might use principles similar to documented anti-gravity research. And crafts of non-human origin are being recovered at the bottom of our oceans all over the world by the Navy. Bob Lazar will either be forgotten entirely by history, as he predicts, or as I predict, he'll be heralded as a canary in the coal mine, the forerunner in a stampede of revolutionary new science. Whether you believe or disbelieve his story, it should be treated as a puzzle, with very real truths underlying it meant to be discovered by those who take the initiative. So if you think there's something to any of this, don't let up.

3:19:19As the first man on the moon Neil Armstrong once cryptically said, There are great ideas undiscovered. Breakthroughs available to those who can remove one of truth's protective layers.

3:19:46If you're still watching and you made it through all of the exotic UFO science, you're one of the first to hear about this. We just dropped a new limited merch collection. Two T's, one off-white, one vintage black, plus hat. The design has a timeless retro-future feel. You can wear it every day. If you've been watching the show lately, you've probably already seen me wearing it. This is a limited run, so when it's gone, it's gone. Head to AmericanAlchemyMerch.com to grab the Believe drop today. And while you're there, the Cowboy UFOt is a fan favorite we always keep in stock, along with the Atomic Age design.

3:20:25Thank you all so much for following and supporting the show.

3:20:40Good night.