“If You Knew What I Knew!” -Jeremy Corbell UNLEASHES On Jesse Michels | EARLY RELEASE

25:04Jesse Michels:First of all, about me and George, it's called fucking journalism. And if you are not seeing that, you are looking at the wrong thing. So with Lekatsky, why? You asked a bunch of questions there. So why did they let him? Well, not everybody at a doctor desk is equal. And you can submit a book in one way and say it's fictitious, or you can submit it and say, this is fact. And he did the fact way, right? It's harder. Took a long time. George knows how long it took with each book. Why did they let him? I know for a fact, there are people in the mechanisms of government that let things get through because they're on our side.

25:54Jesse Michels:Truth. I suspect that's why. It's not some big plan. Dude, if this was planned, I would kick back, relax, and stop and not worry because then we've got a planned situation. This is Vietnam. Everything has been provoked. It's been fought for millimeter by millimeter for years and decades. So what you get from him is the absolute factual information. It's not theoretical. It's factual. And he says when he doesn't know stuff. Yeah, and he's a senior DIA rocket scientist with a long history. And I think it's important for people to realize there's probably a war going on inside the government. And there are probably elements of the quote-unquote legacy program that want itself outed or partially outed.

26:41Like there are members of, you know, inside these programs that think the way they're being run is ridiculous.

26:47Jesse Michels:That's why you had the vice president of Lockheed Martin trying to get the craft and hardware that they have obtained a long time ago out the back door into the sunlight through the front door and studied that way. They saw the writing on the wall and it was being facilitated by Dr. Colin Kelleher, Dr. James Lekatsky, a bunch of people they worked with. That's the truth, what you just said. There are a lot of people that realize there's no right, there's no purpose to hold back from human beings the ultimate truth, whatever that might be. I got some guesses, you know, maybe there are UFOs and they're not from here, whatever that means.

27:35Jesse Michels:I mean, why would you build a Ferrari not to go fast? Why would you make something that appears that it could travel amongst the stars if it doesn't? And that gives you a sense of at least one aspect of origin. Of course, there might be more. So yeah, dude, I look, man, it's my favorite topic. And you and I got so many things we can talk about that I agree with what your analysis is. Well, I want to touch on something that you just mentioned, which is the VP at Lockheed Martin. His name was Jim Ryder. That's right. And he gave a very interesting speech called The Garment of the Gods. And it's very strange.

28:11It's about the veil thinning. And he talks about extrasensory perception and consciousness. But he's a VP at Lockheed Martin Space Systems who's very well respected. The idea that everything from spoons to stones are conscious is gaining academic credibility. Who wrote that? One of the most senior physicists in Canada. It's the only conclusion we have. Everything is conscious. We're just discussing amount and levels. I find him and Lekatsky's language around this topic very interesting. Lekatsky talks about Plato's cave and consciousness. It affects you.

28:44Jesse Michels:Yeah. To know something this big and hidden. It's like if you've ever taken a psychedelic, right? You've seen this world around you at all times, but you are not initiated to what that world is or means so you might see like a tie-dye or dancing bears of the grateful dead but you as soon as you breach the hull of that craft you you see a world that has always been hidden to you but has always been there and that can it has disturbed people to their core and then they start getting angry that other people don't get to know. And what, this goes back to your question, was it frustrating? Why did he not go outside the parameters of his book?

29:27Jesse Michels:Why was he allowed to say that? I told you why he's allowed to say it most likely. Yeah, you can see on my face, I hold my emotions like right here. You could see I'm frustrated. I'm not trying to hurt the guy. I mean, you know, I'm sure they all got mad at me at different times. I'm just pressing because I know people want to know. And he can't say the words that aren't printed because he's the kind of guy you want protecting secrets for america he's the exact kind of guy you know it's it's so it's so interesting and it's so messy because yes it's like ideally if this thing is like a portal or a gateway the object is uh to a new sense of the actual true nature of reality yeah this should be for humanity it should be for everybody is humans human beings knowledge and information we we own that right it is so having that held back, you know, you know, the reason, you know, okay, America first weaponization, strategic surprise, strategic advantage, technological advantage.

30:28Jesse Michels:Like I get that. Now that's some like stone age thinking when we're in the Jetsons, you know, that we're past that now. So, but that is, I understand what, so they need to formally acknowledge the known facts, for me acknowledge the unknown facts they really need to define the terms and boundaries and parameters and topography of what we're looking at because if they don't do that if they don't if they give us like this partial disclosure of stuff then we get kind of lost with what it means to be human we get lost with understanding our position in what it means to exist and there might be questions that are unasked there that are profound that have profound answers that we just haven't i'm like eating the mic now you're good we just haven't been able to ask and how do we evolve if we don't have the right questions so we need you don't need to tell somebody how to make a nuclear bomb but you need to tell them nuclear physics exists and you can study it and try to protect that part so we've got to get to the point where we're all at a consensus reality that matches up a little bit better with actual reality.

31:42Jesse Michels:And if we do that, then we're going to have questions. And those questions, the answers might be a little disturbing if you're a person that gets disturbed, but it will be the truth. And the truth, that's what's going to help us evolve. And so that's why I'm so upset with the secret keeper. Well, it makes sense that they wouldn't disclose it because on the one hand, you're kind of ceding your authority to this higher thing that's flying with impunity at your most around your most sensitive sites around your nuclear installations tampering with the nukes themselves so you don't want to admit that if you're in some position of governmental authority and then you don't know as far as you know what could confer a tactical advantage to the adversary maybe you haven't figured it out but it's this weird cat and mouse game theory thing vis-a-vis China and Russia.

32:33And so it's this weird thing where they have this asymmetric knowledge on the nature of reality, which they should not have any right to vis-a-vis normal people or scientists. But their incentives make it so that, you know, they're just not going to go full open kimono anytime soon. Well, don't go so fast or so quick.

32:55Jesse Michels:I mean, you know, what are we fighting for? Unless we can wrest it out of them. We can provoke. Uh-huh. You can't, just how you can't give anybody anything because all you can do, you put it in their hand, but it's an object. You can't give anybody anything. You can lead by example. You can't take anything. It's not just one person's thing. You need to provoke and they need to give. And when they give, you need to receive. And that's, so I'm not trying to be oblique here. It is an ontological issue. this thing and ontological i i believe means uh relating to the existence of of being an existence itself relating to the existence of being right is what it means yeah so this is the ufo thing is a symbol there are things a lot deeper than ufos i suspect i agree i think it's the tip of the iceberg yeah but it's a symbol it's a symbol of freedom of thought because if we can talk about it with the right words and factual information, then we have freedom of speech.

33:59Jesse Michels:Freedom of speech causes debate. Debate causes thought. Then we have freedom of thought. It's fucking beautiful, man. What are we fighting for? It is beautiful. And I hope we're on the verge of a paradigm shift because, I mean, how do you feel now that the Department of War has a website with more hits than people in America? and, you know, we have stuff coming out and you can say that the stuff often is repackaged, repurposed things that have already kind of existed in the open source world. I find it hilarious that that is what's making, you know, the Citadel scientific gatekeepers like Neil deGrasse Tyson take it seriously is the fact that it gets a stamp of approval from authority.

34:40So it kind of shows that they were never doing science in the first place. But how do you feel? Do you feel vindicated? Do you think it's going to keep going and we're going to get more? or how do you feel about where we're at? Yeah, I don't self-reflect when I'm fighting,

34:57Jesse Michels:when I'm going forward. That's like the death gargle if you're doing martial athletics is thinking about what you just did wrong or what happened yesterday. You need to be fully forward-facing and forward-looking. So what I feel is optimistic, but I'm an optimist. But now there's tangible evidence that we should all have optimism, but don't get complacent in that optimism. Optimism is only powerful if there's action behind it. So what we need to do in every single way, every person, we need to fight for what we want. If we want truth, we have to fight for truth. If we want inner peace, we have to fight for inner peace.

35:38Jesse Michels:Counterintuitive, but it's true. okay people ask me all the time what can i do it's like they feel powerless i'm not this i don't have this a microphone i'm starting a podcast bro i figured it out um use your voice now how do you do that i talked to some grade school teachers i talked to some high school teachers and i talked to some professors at major universities all in one weekend right they were all there at the McMinimins UFO Fest, which is the finest thing in the world. You got to come to me next time you get a golf cart and a six pack of beer. It sounds epic. And I was put in jail one morning and that's a true fact.

36:17Jesse Michels:It's hilarious. So what you can do is you can show other people your curiosity. If you have a class, none of us have the answers. You got a class, teach it. What do you know?

36:36Jesse Michels:How nothing. They're five followers on Twitter. And they're like, what do I do? There's a woman that came up to me. She's a little bit older. I'm like, oh, don't worry if you have five followers. Say what you're thinking and tag every representative that is fighting for this. Tag the Department of War. Tag at energy. That's the Department of Energy. Tag them. And here's why I know that's what you should do. Because I get calls from people that saw the tags and it affects them personally and it starts building. So imagine if everybody did that. Rep Luna, great job. Keep fighting. Don't stop. Oh my gosh.

37:16Jesse Michels:People read that stuff and they go. I mean, I notoriously don't because it's toxic for me. There's organized attempts at that, you know, but that's what the average person can do. If you're a scientist, look at it from a scientific perspective. If you're a philosopher, look at it from a philosophic perspective, teach it, pass it on, show people your curiosity and they'll be weaponized just like you and me, Jesse. Let's go. I want to talk about how you got into UFOs, which is described very well in this new movie, Sleeping Dog. The first person that I ever pointed a camera at and was like, oh, oh, fuck, it's like a Rubik's Cube.

37:53Jesse Michels:You know, I gotta get this person talking. It was really hard with John Lear. It started where a lot of people have to start with UFOs, which is you have to start with the widest possible filter. And for you, that was embodied in a man named John Lear. He taught me how to keep my mind open, but not let my marbles fall out, because he was spilling marbles sometimes. And it was, I'm gonna crack a beer for this part. I wanted to have a drink with Jesse. He's got water because he's an alien. There's my beer. Dave Portnoy here. The wait is over. Football is here and so is DraftKings. DraftKings is now live in all 50 states.

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39:28Jesse Michels:So I like you. I'm not going to repeat what people can watch in a movie, right? I like you. I think like everybody who gets interested in something other than themselves, you know, they look outward. and the ancient greeks used to say that the stars were pinpricks from the beaks of hummingbirds so that was a beautiful cosmology and then all of a sudden science stepped in goes actually it's fucking cooler than that right that sounds cooler than science to me no i don't know i i the orbiting planets galaxies i'm come on i'm gonna take the beaks of hummingbird pinprints but Okay. So I love hummingbirds, man.

40:13Jesse Michels:They're fucking fantastic. They're amazing. What they can do. Anyway, so I got curious. And I've said this before. I heard George Knapp's voice interviewing a guy named Bob Lazar on the radio. They were replaying it on one station, probably K-Rock or something. I was a dumbass kid. I don't know what station. I wasn't really tuned in to the whole Coast to Coast thing. I was 13. and something really happened to me that day and i people make jokes when i say my my curiosity is weaponized so i started making jokes it's like when people call me you know fuck you four name online my family all now calls me four name it's like you have to embrace the thing right so what i embraced in that moment is that bob azar said it's not a reactionary propulsion system it's a i think he said it's a field propulsion system you're falling where you need to get which is the story of my life actually which is hilarious but you're like falling to it and that just like flipped this switch in me and i was like holy shit if what he's saying is true about travel then distance no longer matters because everybody told me um i wasn't into ufos and stuff But when it came up, when you're a young kid, it's like all the scientists like the Neil deGrasse Tyson's, well, there's no way.

41:38Jesse Michels:Life is probably way out in the universe. But don't be silly. They can't be coming here. The distances are so vast. You'd have to travel the speed of light almost for 36 years to get to our closest planet. All this bullshit. And I thought, damn, they really got it figured out. Unless Lazar was right. So I was like, because from rockets to roller skates, it's push something out the back. you go forward called reactionary propulsion system so all of a sudden if you're falling into time space distance is irrelevant and i was sitting there as a dumb ass kid thinking oh my god is this guy telling the truth that's what i was thinking because i thought then obviously it's not hummingbirds obviously there are tons of planets that are in the goldilocks zones in these hundreds of billions of galaxies not just our galaxy and i'm like is he telling the truth.

42:30Jesse Michels:And then I went and, you know, just like met up with my girlfriend and started doing jujitsu more and like just dropped it like it's hot. But I never forgot that moment, that feeling. It taught me that authority is something we bestow upon people, not something that they truly are. They can have more knowledge than you. That's what the word sensei means, is born before. Knowledge in you is born before knowledge in me. So you're my sensei at this, right? So everybody is teaching each other. A sensei is somebody that he has or she has certain knowledge that's born before. So you pass it on one generation otherwise, and it's gone because it's a physical art.

43:13Jesse Michels:It's not written down. It's transmitted physically. You have to actually choke someone out, right? So to just back up, because I get so excited about this moment, I feel it as if it was yesterday. That's how it really got started. But I was a kid. I was sure I was just going to do the martial athletics thing my whole life. I didn't think I was smart enough to do other things. And then I thought, well, maybe I am, but this is what I like doing. So I'm going to do what I like because if I do what I like, I'm going to get good at it because I'm going to practice it 10 ,000 times. Then all hell broke loose.

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45:00Jesse Michels:So I said, what am I interested in? Fell into art, fell into then getting a camera. That was cool to see that you did that Sharon Tate exhibit. That was amazing. I didn't realize how deep and rich of an art background that you had. And that was kind of an expression of the pain of the illness that you fell into. Dude, you learned that from the movie? Yeah. Shit. I did. Okay. And the movie's really good. And I recommend everybody watch it because it really, it helped me understand your psychology. Okay. And where you're coming from, what you're motivated by. Yeah. And I think UFO space. now you know i didn't i didn't need that from the movie because we've gotten to know each other but ufo space can be a hall of mirrors and if somebody doesn't know you personally i think uh it's a really good way to kind of get to know you that's what that's what the kid sold me on you know that and the self-defense mechanism of showing my personal life but um yeah but i think that moment you were talking about was okay i've got this camera first time i pointed it at somebody they spilled the beans.

46:04Jesse Michels:It was my grandmother. And she told me a story about my family that she had kept hidden from everybody. And she was like 90 or something. And I recorded it. I'm like, holy shit. So I pointed it at John Lear because I was like, who can I get to that seems to have these wild ideas? And if I say crazy, it wasn't crazy at all. Very sane man. You know, CIA pilot did some incredible stuff. One of the youngest people ever to climb the Matterhorn. The dude has had so many life experiences people don't know. Won a bunch of flight records as well. Like really amazing, esteemed pilot. Bro. So he called me back.

46:42Jesse Michels:Finally. And it was so like, come over, Las Vegas, Nevada. Y 'all will be here. It was the weirdest call. And I fucking packed my bags and I looked at my wife. And there's a scene in the movie. I know the kid, my voice is all hoarse. That was after that first trip. the first thing i michael just i said when you make it when you tell this story don't put anything visually out of order to see it exactly like it happened first time i roll up to his gate filming it like that's all real exactly in the order it happened so because of his openness to me i mean he didn't tell me shit about ufos at first but he was testing me right but um that's how it started and then i would just see these these floods of people over the years just come into house he'd let everybody in they tell him sometimes the craziest and you could tell they weren't rap so tight stories and he just listened like like he cared because he did care and then other people come in and they were cia fbi nsa um amazing pilots i mean just all these people this world the people that i would never have had contact with because i had a camera they would talk with me it look they mistook me as a authority figure with that camera But what John did was he had no filter.

48:00Jesse Michels:And that's the trap. The trap is you believe and actual functional reality start to blur when you have heard it all. Which he did. Start talking about soul catchers on the moon. I can't verify his wildest theory. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I can't verify. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, what did he tell you that did check? Because I think it's important to caveat about him. He broke the F-117 to George Knapp. He actually knew a lot about advanced aviation well ahead of anybody in the kind of civilian world. And was kind of, you know, hanging out at Dreamland at Area 51 before anybody knew it was even real. So he definitely knew some real stuff.

48:46Bro, I have original photographs from 1977.

48:52Jesse Michels:1977, Groom Lake, lake level with a chain going across. John Lear drove out there many times back in the day when security was different. He came, I'll show you the photographs. It's amazing. He wrote to me, it's Groom Lake, you moron. Let's go Wednesday because Wednesday was the famous night, nights that they would fly the sport model. so what he did was he sat there drinking beers on the back of his pickup truck with a buddy of his who i know and he snapped a bunch of photos in a row of groom lake at lake level you've never seen a photo like this before unless i put it out or leer i don't know if it's leaked online but i'll i'll give you a print wow then what he did because it's john fucking leer and he's so and they knew his dad, William P.

49:47Jesse Michels:Lear, inventor of the Learjet, Learjet 8-track stereo, became Motorola, his company, the whole crazy shit. Worked on some amazing stuff with people that you talk about sometimes, by the way. Hanson Brown. Not saying shit. You're going to talk about what you know will be, you'd be my sense on that. So what he does, because he's so John Lear, he takes his Panerape, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. He sees the dust trails in the desert. You see the dust trails of the, what what the fuck is this guy doing out of daylight, sitting on the back of the street, tailgating with a beer, right? He takes the 35 millimeter film thing out of the camera, hides it under his ashtray, puts it in another, does an identical set of photos.

50:28Jesse Michels:And when they came, they said, John Lear, okay, well, you can't be here. And, you know, we're confiscating the camera. He goes, no, it's not my camera. We're taking the film. They took the film and left. John drives home. that's how i have a photo of groom lake at lake level with a chain that i will give you a print of whoa crazy 77 19th that was the year i was born oh my god he did that that's crazy what did he tell me that was true he did break the story of the stealth fighter but it was ned day it was George Knapp's mentor in journalism. Shout out to Ned Day. Big sip here. Shout out to Ned.

51:12Jesse Michels:I've learned about Ned from George. So John had some credibility. He also knew a lot about CIA operations when they were flying drugs because he'd never ask what was in his flight. He'd fly anywhere at any time and he gave me all this footage of him going in like these tiny little runways made of dirt, flying for the CIA. Well, you're on Contra's situation. He was moving drugs a lot of the time. Yeah, fully. He says, I don't know, I'm just a bus driver, you know? There's a famous photo of him with G. Gordon Liddy. And like, you've got, you're like, this guy's in with like the spookiest of spooks.

51:51Jesse Michels:Right, and that's why people think people would try to influence him in the negative ways. And maybe they did, but most people like me love, there's something about John Lear. He had a laugh. I've only heard one other human being on planet earth. And one day I hope to achieve this laugh. It is the most joyous belly laughing, almost like wink at the same time. You're onto something. You're onto something. It's just, it's a really inspiring laugh. Um, so he rolled deep with some people. So he verify, verifiably gave good evidence, um, about a whole bunch of terrestrial stuff to the news station in las vegas at klas he had a credibility there he was running for senator or state senator at the time or something um and then he walks in with this ufo madness and nobody ned day george's mentor he said i think he said if if this was true i would have already known about it john george is like peeking over it's like a young reporter you know he's like Hey, John, I'll check out the files.

52:56Jesse Michels:And that's how it started. So that's why. Did I answer your question? You did. Sometimes people say I don't answer questions. I'm just pumped. No, that was a thorough answer. Describe your first time meeting Bob Lazar. Oh, wow.

53:13Jesse Michels:You know what that's like. Now, it's so surreal. I'm honored to have had that experience myself. It teaches you a lot. Use the word honored a lot. You know how we all have the same amount of time? So people choose if they want to spend it together, right? It should always be an honor with somebody you're hanging with because you're both choosing in space time with limited amount of life. But anyway, so first time meeting Bob Lazar. Well, first of all, reverse the tape. You know that I wanted to know if he's a liar or not. That was the only thing I wanted to know. If he was not a liar, then, I mean, it's so like, then distance doesn't matter.

53:52Jesse Michels:that's in my brain caveman brain that's what i thought i want to know he's a liar because the distance doesn't matter that's my line of thinking so john kept telling me that george knapp won't talk to anybody because i've been trying for years to get to george um bob lazar there's no way um but he does you know john always wanted him to come for like a birthday party his who always had these big birthday parties really wanted to brag that lazar was his friend right so he kept kind of telling me you know maybe lazar will show up this year and i'm always like fucking call him then you know i'm like i would love to just no cameras out of so what happened was answer your question one day i'm just filming with john like i did every day for years or every week at least i'd go out there every two weeks so oh god what happened oh and he goes lazar's coming over First thing he says to me, I go, oh, shit, because I got my cameras already all set up.

54:49Jesse Michels:We're doing our daily thing. How well known was Bob at the time? Right. See, it's very different now. Yeah. It's very different. So niche. Right. So like nobody knew his name unless you're a UFO nerd on the Paranet, right? So like a very popular city councilman or something. Less than that. Less than that. But in UFO land. Yeah, sure. He was UFO Jesus. You know, he was the Messiah. You know, the unwanted, like he didn't want the attention. It's the weirdest conundrum of a guy. I call them the big foot of UFOs. Is he real? Does he even really exist? So my first experience meeting him was like, first I go total respect mode.

55:34Jesse Michels:I'm like, I can't, I'm not even a filmmaker, never made a film, putting away all the cameras. I don't want him to feel like he's walking into a bear trap. And I'm like, John, just talk with your friend. but I knew that all that was out there were these tiny little clips of him, the small little hard to find interviews. And that the majority, 99 % of what you read by getting to know Lear and all this, it wasn't true. So here's my pitch. He comes in. I'm just looking at him, you know, um, real good to meet you. Yeah. I'm making a movie. Uh, I think, um, Bob, when I got a respectful moment of silence, Bob, I don't know if you're telling the truth, but I do know from Noah and John, the entire world within this UFO little silo is saying things that aren't true about you.

56:26Jesse Michels:And three minutes of you talking would completely change the dynamic of the ratio of what people know because it's just not out there. Do you mind if I push record and ask you a couple of questions about UFOs? And that's when you see that footage and he just unloaded. I know there are alien craft here from another planet. Now, I saw other ones, but I was inside one. I know it was not made on Earth. I know it was made with materials that we cannot fabricate, we cannot duplicate, and we've never been able to. I know it uses a power source that's so advanced that we could only dream of something along those lines.

57:11and the energy density on it is phenomenal.

57:13Jesse Michels:And I was just looking at him like, holy fuck. First time you ever hear him like, fuck the noise. So I thank him. He sits down with Lear. I never release this footage. Michael put it in the movie because I gave him 20 years of my footage and he just used it and he's with Lear and he's arguing with Lear about Lear's crazy ideas, right? And so you see Bob all the way back then being like the rational dude the greys were controlling the soul sucker on the moon and when you die it sucks up your soul and it gets reprocessed unless the greys steal i mean come on john what what the fuck and it just it just it just what it was like was like okay now i really gotta find out well he's he's a walking mind fuck because he that's a cool term he is because you uh So I have the same motivation as you.

58:12And as you know, and I, you know, as of a few years ago, probably netted out more skeptical than Believer when it came to his story. Not necessarily the like surface level details, but I thought maybe there was sort of like a cover for something else or something. How do you know?

58:29Jesse Michels:The information is all that you, whatever information you have, you have to base your assessment. A hundred percent. Yeah. And I, at the time, and even now, have immense respect for Jacques Vallée, sort of godfather of UFO research. And he had said some negative things. I pushed him on it once at my ranch alone. He and me were sitting there and I love him with all my heart. This is nothing negative. But I pushed him. I don't want to get into it, but like, where did that come from specifically? Why do you say that? How do you know that? Do you know that? Or are you just saying that? And I'm just saying, we are friends, but I stick where I stand on that one.

59:01Jesse Michels:Okay. It wasn't compelling. But dude, he's incredible. And everything else is compelling. But that idea of belief. But you stressed you wanted to know where he was coming from. Bro, is there something I don't know? Right. Tell me. I knew where it all came from. I know exactly specifically who it came from, why they said it, what their secondhand knowledge is. That all in the scientific world, they start spreading around. that somehow, you know, that he's a marionette, you know. Right, he's some sort of MKUltra. Bullshit. Yeah, yeah. But I do want to address one thing, which is that I did have and do have a secret, and that's for me.

59:44Jesse Michels:And what that is is why I knew that Bob Lazar was telling it as it is, meaning a facility like that exists, exactly what's inside of it exists, I wanted to find out if Lazar was actually there and saw it for his own eyes or if he was lying and being used as a marionette. So that day, I knew for the first time, because I asked him certain questions, I knew that it was worthy of deep, deep, deep investigation. It took me... So you already knew about the existence of S4? I say that in the movie. A lot of people knew about the existence of S4 theoretically. Uh-huh. What I'm trying to - It sounds like you had a pretty good source.

1:00:29Jesse Michels:What I'm trying to do is go as far as I can, but we have to respect one thing. As a journalist, when someone says to you, um... And this is for you to know not to say. If you break that one fucking time, you're done. Nobody will ever trust you. And it's so tempting sometimes. I'm just trying to say as cleanly. I'm not being oblique. It's a bright room, sunglasses off. I'm trying to tell you what I can while respecting my oath. Yeah, of course. and that is that i didn't go you had good reason to believe yes i had i had very solid good reason to know that lazar was correct now was he there right was he there and did he see it you know because that's another trick that's played when you're spilling information like use people as emissaries to propagate a truth or a lie so i hope i explained that to the satisfaction of your amazing and beautiful audience.

1:01:35Jesse Michels:And, you know, that's that I had cause to want to bullet test Lazar. And then meeting him was the first step to me saying, okay, this guy is not a liar, but I need to really find out. Legend has it that in 1943, the Navy tried to teleport a ship in what's known as the Philadelphia Experiment. And it worked, sort of. It disappeared, appeared, reappeared, and then half the crew got atomically fused into the ship's walls. Others just vanished. No one was where they were supposed to be. Talk about a breakdown in communication. You know what that sounds like. Your team. Before you had Quo. This year, upgrade your system to a workspace that keeps your team from shattering across dimensions.

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1:03:41Jesse Michels:This guy is not a liar, but I need to really find out. Yeah, and I think something I want to talk to you about is the fact that you really corroborated his presence at S4 Area 51. because you spoke to some other people that one of the pilots that flew the Blackbird. Really cool fucking plane. Yeah, I mean, look, in so many ways, not public, but also public. I got one dude on Ancient Aliens to give his testimony that he saw Lazar there. Wild. Yeah, getting on a bus. It doesn't prove flying saucers, but it proves Lazar was there. He proves he was there, yeah. Oh, dude, there's so many things like that.

1:04:27that's that's what i always say when people are like do you believe him i'm like i 100 percent at this point think he was there and i 100 think s4 exists and then i'm high probability on the story you know it's like i can't i can't say i'm 100 you know but after spending time with him why i say he's a walking mind fuck is i asked him all my most skeptical questions and the dude didn't bat an eye. He was cool with me just hurling everything. And to him, he's probably annoyed, right? Because he hears all these things ad nauseum. And this is like, you know, one of his last kind of media tour. Maybe he does something else.

1:05:03But as you know, he hates media. And he's just getting like all these skeptical questions thrown at him from this kid he just met. And he was handled all of them gracefully.

1:05:15Jesse Michels:And he's a great human being and he's a fighter. People don't know that. Like he is, he's very strong. He does, he just doesn't want more drama in his life and he doesn't want to cause more pain, which I can relate to, to his family, to his beautiful wife and all the animals. He's had five heart attacks too since. You're allowed to say that? Yeah, it was on, it was on our episode. He talked about it publicly. Okay. So yeah, there's a lot of. He said it's just from stress. He said his arteries are clear. I've had five heart attacks from stress. And other things from stress. And, um, look, man, I really try to keep the personal stuff away because I've had problems with that.

1:05:53Jesse Michels:Um, but there was something in what you said, um, just kind of meeting him. It's not good enough to say, well, I met him and I can tell he's, he's, he's not a liar. No, I want a tangible, actual, actual proof, you know? And, oh yeah, I found that. And so the question then becomes, do you protect this guy? Do you blow up his life? dude I started making the movie um here's what happened I never sign anything with anybody and I don't make them do it right so I show Lazar the movie I go look here's the deal man I'm not a filmmaker but this is I want people to see who you are it's not about proving anything I just want them to see what how I've gotten to know you after all these years right we become friends you've let me in your life um so look at it through through that lens and i i said it's a gamble right now you're so terrorized by anytime you say something people twist it and they get angry at that time jesse people were really angry at bob he was you know it was attack attack attack now he's like with you up on stage in austin everybody's cheering everybody loves him but imagine the risk.

1:07:12Jesse Michels:So I say, look, I don't know if anybody's going to pick up this movie. I don't know, but watch it. Think about it. And you can ask him. I said this. I said, if you want, I'll scrap the whole thing. I didn't have you sign anything. This is, to me, I think important. So I give him the movies with his wife and popcorn, like let's watch it. And there's like excitement like oh this is pretty neat you know and he'll call me right after call me right after 24 hours goes by not a call 48 hours i mean i have like the receipts like my phone i thought it was so funny it's being shot it so i just calmed myself i said okay okay that's gonna go on he calls me and you know he gets that like you know he's struggling because he knows how many years I spent and he knows that I'm, I want to do this.

1:08:09Jesse Michels:I want the world to see this. And it was just like, no. And I go, okay, well, what? So here I am being calm. I can actually do that by the way. I can instantaneously be calm, but I don't like to. So I calm myself. I say, okay, what, what, what did you not like? But then, well, why did you show, he didn't yell, but he's like, why did you do this? And I go, oh, let me walk you through why I did that scene, why I showed that personal part of your life. Oh, well, that makes sense. Okay. I'm winning here. I'm winning. I'm like, okay, well, what else? We went through the thing and he, to his credit, he's like, okay, you made a good movie.

1:08:58Jesse Michels:Okay. And I'm like, so that was the moment where the world almost didn't see it and how that would have changed things is that people would not have seen who he was as a human and he would have been this totem pole that you could just put gasoline on and light it on fire or worship and you should do neither it'd probably be relegated to like deep corners of the wet like like reddit forums and shit like People wouldn't really, I mean, because then you guys went on Rogan and that is the most viewed Rogan episode of all time. I think it has like 66 or 67 million views or something. hungry people hungry for this to joe's credit it also took an act of god to get bob there and like joe um had asked me about my first film patient 17 he actually the first dm i ever did was joe taught me via it was a it was a public post you probably find it and i was like i don't know how or something and he goes dude you have to follow me i'm like oh so i follow and then you learn and i never sent a dm and it was about patient 17 so it was like this weird thing it was a movie i did before i want to talk about patient 17 but and um so then joe to his absolute credit kind of kept tabs i think on the stuff going along the way we weren't friends or anything at that time it was like you know you never know where you stand but he just asked me out of the blue one day, how I remember it.

1:10:33Jesse Michels:He asked me, can you ask Bob and you guys come on the show? And I don't know if it was the size of the show or anything. I'm not following. I'm not tracking that stuff. And it was big though. So the thing is, I said, Joe, it was a phone call. I'm like, I'm like, like literally a month ago, you know, two months ago, this came out. He said he would do one interview, one. And I took him on Larry King. That was like the one thing he would do to promote them. Just sit next to me. The one thing. And I said, I don't want to do that. But Joe said these magic words to me. He goes, can you just ask him?

1:11:11Jesse Michels:And before I talked, I thought, can I? I can. Okay. I can. So yes, I can. Absolutely. Because I would love it. I would love for him to be heard more, right? Not just about the film, just Bob, you know? And how cool have somebody else who can interrogate him? You know what I mean? And so then - And in a long form, you know, Larry King was, I love, you know, great, great legend, but he's got the suspenders and it's like this legacy sort of format, you know, Rogan's - Go unnatural. Yeah, unnatural. Yeah, Rogan's got the long form, you know, and for people to build trust, that's really important. But I wasn't thinking about nothing.

1:11:46Jesse Michels:I was just like in this world state where it's like UFO Vietnam and someone's asked me to pull this guy back out somewhere to go on. It was months after the initial movie came, but right before Netflix got it. So basically the funny thing is, is that, um, I mean, it's hilarious. I was, he goes, he goes, is he a disc jockey? Bob said, I go, Bob, look, George and I are coming out because we have a premiere or a screening, um, in Michigan. So we're coming out. Let's just talk about it then. So I remember texting joe like um okay i'm gonna need you you to ask him because i've really tried to do all this stuff with bob you know and i don't want to and so then there's this really funny phone call and george is standing over here and we i said bob just get on the phone with joe dude he's a good dude dude just get on the phone like you can say no but just hear the dude out you know how people bob you know fill in the voids on you just don't fill in the voids just just talk to him and I was like, so I get him on the speakerphone and, and Joe talks to them.

1:12:50Jesse Michels:And I remember Bob saying, okay, I'll, I'll think about it. That's a win, right? I hope it works. You know, you know, I hope it works. I would love to see that George snapped a photo at that exact minute. And behind us is this eighties poster of like John Lear's face with Lazar and nap. And there's me and Bob leaning over and that's the moment that really like Bob Lazar was about maybe to tell the world one more time what happened to him on a big ass platform and just do it I mean different than a movie right and my by golly did he ever and that episode I think why people loved it so much is because we are all starved to know the one thing.

1:13:40Jesse Michels:Is this true? Any of it? All of it? Some of it? I don't know. But it was cool as fuck. It was cool as fuck. And Joe got him. It was amazing. And he didn't put the bone down, right? He didn't put the bone down. So you could stop there. but he's had on, I get so joyous. Even if I don't agree with somebody and what they're saying, people are on there, Bob's a liar. I'm like, okay, well, I can tell you what you don't know. But he's brought it into a popular culture thing where I think a lot of us wouldn't exist in the same way with this if he didn't, he allowed the discussion to occur. Well, you were inextricably a big part of that.

1:14:31So, you know, I hope you just take that as a compliment.

1:14:34Jesse Michels:I was sitting in the room. I want to get into some other amazing people that you've sort of broken out into the public and are now part of the whole UFO conversation. Who is Dylan Borland? Okay. Do you think your audience would prefer if I just give you really short, direct answers? No. I think they want the full, deep—I love what we're doing now, which is just getting into it and, you know, talking about it. I can do yes or no. Right? No. Okay. Dylan Borland. That's Larry King. Okay. All respect to Larry. No, no, no. He was awesome. You know what he did when I walk in with Larry King and Bob?

1:15:11Jesse Michels:I'm like, you know, nervous. But for Bob, because I'm making him do this thing early morning, I come in, Larry King looks at me, and he just like winks at me like a 1950s, like, you're going to be okay, kid. But I wasn't the nervous one. You know? It was funny. He was a cool dude. He was a cool dude. Yeah. So Dylan Borland. So... Friend, intelligent, balls like church bells. A man of faith, husband, animal lover and protector, honest, nervous at times.

1:16:02Jesse Michels:endured extreme adversity, endured extreme adversity. He doesn't have a roadmap because other people got shit cleared. By getting stuff cleared, he would expose himself. So he has to dance a line until they let him talk. And he's endured extreme adversity, like you said, and people don't know all that i was just with him for five days we were just having a good time at mcminville you know and i know i i'm gonna try to keep the private stuff out but he just say he's very loved and has a loving relationship um and is an absolute in my assessment honest straightforward he has little OCD like me. He's like, did you lock your room?

1:17:00Jesse Michels:I'm like, I think so. He ran back up to check the door. So he's fastidious is what I like to call it when someone's like it, fastidious. That's who Dylan Borland is as a human being. He also

1:17:19Jesse Michels:is somebody that you should trust. what did he experience okay that i can talk about um he told you in congress is there was a large triangular shaped craft that was near the nasa hangar it moved over towards him it had zero sound it had electrostatic like the smell of rain his phone had interference went hot went out, all the classics. It was between one to two stories thick, equilateral triangle. I could never see the top of it, and the edges were 90 degrees. There were four lights in total, one light on each corner, and a larger light in the center, two to three times the size of the corner lights.

1:18:13Jesse Michels:The craft itself was this black metallic flake paint, but on top of the craft was this gold lava plasma some type of fluid going over and around the craft little lava plasma that was something that if i had a nickel for every time someone described the seemingly intelligent

1:18:39gold undulating hue that engineers have described to me

1:18:47Jesse Michels:they can't describe the exact they're engineers it really bothers them when they can't they don't have the words or something you know um what it made them feel and intelligence now dylan didn't say that part but i've if i had a nickel for every time i've heard that so yeah that's undulating lava lamp style gold and then shoot straight up. You'd mistake it as a star and then took off on a military base. That's what you know and the world really knows up till the very minute, basically, of what he experienced, but a lot more. Sounds like there's a lot more. I have direct firsthand knowledge and exposure to crash recovery, reverse engineering, integration of technology into redacted as well as the most important piece of technology on the planet and it's not the craft themselves it would be the power source you can make that assessment yourself it is your sense that that craft was being housed at the military base or was doing sort of recon from above at the military base or is it like anybody's guess and he's open to either interpretation?

1:20:04Yeah.

1:20:04Jesse Michels:If he doesn't know, I can't know. I don't know. It is a conundrum. What was it doing? Were we operating it? Was it ours? Is it a program where we utilize things? I mean, look, if we have that technology, everybody's been lying to me. So if we have it, I really want us to have that technology. And there are some arguments. You believe we have crafts. You believe we have crafts and saucers and hangers. Oh, no, we do. Yeah, yeah. But I'm saying, I guess what I'm saying is some people claim that we have a modicum of control over them, like even Lazar. You know, they gave him the impression that we were flying it.

1:20:46Jesse Michels:Obviously, it seems that way. Low performance tests. so these triangles there is evidence that would make me think that we've done something like a retrofit but it's not something that there's a thumbprint for that is easily findable i don't think there is one so i think at best what we're doing and this leads into other things that were told to me by an intelligence agency that i said for the first time publicly because my lawyer said well if they said that to you you can dylan never said it to me they did and that's well documented. So I was able to say three things last weekend that were never said before and Dylan couldn't answer any of them.

1:21:26Jesse Michels:And to get to your I'm sorry, to get to your I think your point. Can you say what the intelligence agency said? Yeah, I can but then we go off on a whole different tangent. It's just broke news it's breaking today while we're doing this. Which is just high level? Yeah, I can but let's just finish this one little triangle thing. Sure. Which is I think there is evidence that we, meaning the United States, have been able to put a non-human power source into a constructed body of other craft. The problem is, is it can't handle it. It's like putting a Ferrari engine in a Pinto, you know, and then you try to drive that fast on those wheels, you're dead, right?

1:22:16Jesse Michels:So that's where I'm at. At this point, the evidence has directed me to that, that we've made some exploitive derivative technologies based on it, but the skin of the craft. But non-human power source, the ability to make it work at all, even if you can't retrofit it onto some, but that's what it sounds like you're saying. Well, it does. So I'm thinking that it just does work. Okay. And then you're trying to harness that and not have the wheels break off. You know what I'm saying? Sure. So it's like, you know, you can... Slap it on there and... Slap it on there. Yeah, exactly. That's to the best of my knowledge.

1:22:56Jesse Michels:Without getting too specific and in the weeds for your audience, that's to the best of my knowledge. Sure. And then the three things I said, is that what you wanted to know next? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. So I said that I was directly told by a lead of the ODNI's dig, the director's initiative, that Dylan Borland drew four drawings, I think it was, which was a lie. He did draw three for the ICIG because it was filmed. So why the lie? We'll talk about that, but I think it was four drawings is what they said. So one was the craft, and everybody knows that. That's just he saw it at a base, doesn't know anything.

1:23:51But the ODNI told me that he had told them about Project Rubik's Cube.

1:24:02Jesse Michels:Now, if that is a classified UAP program, then nobody should be telling me that, especially if it was set in a skiff now the problem is i already knew about it multi-source i don't know the full nature of project rubik's cube but i think they were trying to entrap him to see what he had said to me in george in private he had never said that to me but i knew about it already multiple sourcing right so george and i were like when odi and i told us that we said you said it not us yeah so so he shouldn't get in trouble to be clear well he can't he can't he never said he never said it so i asked him on stage but his face did look down in i don't know i don't know what he looked i try not to look at him i said i'm not even gonna look at you yeah i wasn't trapping him either no sure you know i called chuck mccullough yeah prior yeah like earlier that morning and i said here's the deal you know odian i was targeting me and george and they were targeting us and all these whistleblowers.

1:25:07Jesse Michels:And then we got proof, by the way, the CIA, the whole thing that happened in Congress. We'll get to that if you want. So they're targeting us. But I said, Chuck, they told me about Project Rubik's Cube and kind of long silence with Chuck. And there's two more things. And he goes, well, he goes, you're a journalist. You have no, they have no authority. If they said that to you. It's on them. That's on them. I said, so I can say it. Yeah. can I try to get Dylan to confirm that? And he goes, essentially, as a lawyer, if he knows or doesn't know that he is not in a legal position to admit or anything about that.

1:25:47Jesse Michels:And I said, well, I'm going to ask him if you say I can say that on stage, because I think it's important people now know. And I know Dylan can handle himself. Nothing pre-planned. He stood up in front of Congress and handle themselves, right? So I asked him. I was told by an ODNI agent that Dylan testified to ICIG, the police of the intelligence agencies, that there is a UFO program and it's called Nubits Cube. That's what he said. That's what I heard from the ODNI, which they shouldn't be calling me and telling me what was described in the skiff. Should they? Right. So I'm a journalist. So I listen, and I am testifying to you, believe me, or the author of a bearded tattoo journalist who agreed to win for you, you don't need to believe me.

1:26:43Jesse Michels:Project Rubik's Cube. Dylan, I'm not going to be looking, dude. Have you ever testified to ICIG about a UAP program containing UIP called Project Rubik's Cube. Let me collect my thoughts.

1:27:10Jesse Michels:I am not in a stiff. I am not going to jail. I can neither confirm or deny that if you want me to answer back once again, as per amnesty for the whistleblowers as Congress and the executive branch should give it to us. And I'll answer that question. In my read, that says if he is protected as a whistleblower and they want him to be able to talk freely, then he will absolutely talk about that. So he didn't confirm or deny it. Smart move. Now it gets weird. Through the intelligence agency, George was on the call, through the intelligence agency, They said he drew, obviously, the triangle that he saw or whatever, but in the ICIG that he drew a pyramid-shaped power source.

1:28:05Jesse Michels:Pyramid, triangle by angle of observation, pyramid-shaped power source. Non-human, we're talking about, NHI. I don't know if we publicly said where that was being housed, but I have already reported this to multiple agencies that were trying to find where the legacy shit was being held. So this is like, I already reported all of this, what I knew, right? Factually, we're holding facilities when they're trying to hide it from DOJ, who's trying to, you know, find out where this stuff is. Dave Portnoy here. The wait is over. Football is here and so is DraftKings. DraftKings is now live in all 50 states.

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1:29:39Jesse Michels:As a journalist, right, when the American government says they're hiding from us, I openly will try to help an agency go hold them accountable, like another agency. Oh, I'll fucking help them. No problem. I'll tell them something. We're not talking about sources or witnesses. You know, nothing to do with that. third thing that was told to me by odni is that dylan do did a drawing of like a hieroglyph and and by the way these were told to me they were classified why would you classify a symbol. What the fuck? What the fuck? So I imagine the symbol is somehow associated physically on the pyramid.

1:30:33That's trippy. Yeah, bro. Well, because when you said pyramid, I started tripping out because I'm thinking about the pyramids all over, you know, disparate civilizations from thousands of years ago. So from you can go to the Yucatan in Mexico, you can go to Peru and you can go to Egypt and you can go to, you know, Cambodia. And, you know, one of the sort of, you know, most common things is a pyramid. That is that is sort of very common structure. And then what I also find fascinating is there now there's a guy named Filippo Biondi who I've had on my show. who's an Italian radar scientist, who with synthetic aperture radar Doppler tomography has found this energy grid is what he believes it is.

1:31:18At least we know it's tubular, 20 meter long, eight of these things with coils wrapping around them that go a kilometer deep, tens of meters down below the pyramid. I've hosted a debate on my show. I don't know for sure if it's real, but it does seem like he found some anomaly under there and there is something under there.

1:31:41Jesse Michels:Yeah, I looked at the Italian stuff too. I mean, there's something under there. Seems like there's something under there. Didn't Joe talk about some tic-tac-shaped metallic object they also found? Is that real? That's in the labyrinth that Herodotus and Pliny the Elder and Ben Van Kirkwijk is now sort of reporting on. Good beer, Pliny the Elder. Pliny the Elder. We had to get him in somehow, Pliny. But yeah, and so I know less about that. But Egypt's so weird because it seems like there's like an underground city. Even the most conventional archaeologists, I think, would say that there's so much going on underneath all of these kind of topological structures.

1:32:19Even the Sphinx, there definitely are shafts below that. Even Zahi Hawass, who's like the embodiment of gatekeeping in the region, former minister of culture, will admit that there's a shaft below the Sphinx. And for whatever reason, it's all like locked down. And I don't know, if you're Egypt, you've got to be thinking, what's the number one GDP boosting thing we can do? Dig, figure out what's under there. And you find some new exciting discovery that's like for all mankind, everyone's going to visit and be excited and celebrate.

1:32:51Jesse Michels:It's like being the disclosure president. Wouldn't it be great? I mean, President Trump has forced this mandate and is following through so far. Look, whoever does this first is going to be hero for the rest of their life. Hero for eternity. But you're talking about something outside of my scope of knowledge and ability. Like, I've heard of all these things. But to bring it to... But maybe it's the UFO power source. Is this pyramid? Maybe there's something about the pyramid shape. Yeah. So that's now... I'm going to tell you what I pretty much... pretty confident. And there's pyramid tubulin in the microtubules of the brain that Roger Penrose and Hamerov think are responsible for collapse of the wave function and consciousness.

1:33:38And even Hal Puthoff, who's out here in Austin, talks about this as his best model of consciousness. And there are rumors of UFO legacy programs recruiting psionic assets to call in craft mentally. And so the tubulin pyramid structures in the brain might have some sort of part in that.

1:33:55Jesse Michels:Okay, so now when you talk about tubulin brain structures collapsing, the waveform of consciousness, I am lost on what those words represent in functional reality. However, sounds fucking cool. I don't know about the whole psionics thing. Yeah, what do you think? Do you think that's real? Just top level thing. Yeah, like the Skywatcher stuff. Do you think any of that? So I'm not... And Greer pushes this stuff. Yeah, so two things. One, when I'm talking about a pyramid power source in a classified ICIG, alleged drawing from Dylan, again, he didn't tell me. And he still says, I can't confirm or deny, but I'd love to have the authority.

1:34:42Jesse Michels:The symbol, I think the word was used to me, and George, hieroglyphic, I think on the thing. We're talking about something that you could put in other stuff, you know? So if we're talking about a power source, I'm imagining that's how we would retrofit things. But I'm not sure on that. Like, let me report back to you. Just the multitude of sources that we've got, it's all aiming towards this idea that there's different parts of technology that are held by different groups. And that's why DOJ is like saying, remember, I mean, it was a public thing. They were like trying to find out. It's a public thing that Burleson, Rep Burleson, was going to places for different hardware.

1:35:29Jesse Michels:So I'm not speaking out of school. What I'm trying to say is there are certain different types of hardware that I understand to be held in different places. So I'm not talking about big pyramids. I'm talking about something that appears to maybe movable as a power source. Now, you just went somewhere else. I want to catch you back on where you left off, but I wanted to qualify that. What was the last thing you were saying? is do you think this idea of psionic assets is that real so what people don't know is that a homeless guy came up to me in 2013 and said look up wow yeah and i looked up and i saw like a globe like just a i don't know you know balloon but you know so then i started i think it was 2013 no no I'm sorry that that's no that was in 2004 because 2005 is right after I was sick so this homeless guy says look up right I'm looking up it's a little bit more than that what happened was I got a message on a YouTube video that I posted because I saw this thing in the sky and I didn't know what it was.

1:36:45Jesse Michels:I filmed it. I called it the silver surfer. And it looked like these zigzaggy things. Do you know this part of, oh, this is cool. You got to hear this. Okay. So zigzaggy things. And I pulled out my phone, I'm filming, I'm walking in Santa Monica with my now wife. Right. And we had a different pup, Lucky, three legs. So I filmed this shit in the sky, post it onto YouTube, next thing I know, Bill Nye the science guy is saying, oh, I don't know, he probably superimposed brine shrimp onto the film. It could be sea monkeys, which are brine shrimp, shot in the right light and superimposed on the blue sky with the shaky thing.

1:37:32Jesse Michels:I immediately go on Google, I look up what brine shrimp is, it's sea monkeys. And I was like, I was fucking pissed. So I like, I thought people on TV that were science people had like scientific method. I don't even know how to superimpose nothing on iPhone footage. At the time, I was like, just barely. That's whack of Bill Nye, man. Yeah. What was the first year of the iPhone? 2008, I think. 2008. So it must have been 2008. So we'll look, you know what? But I think of Bill Nye, I'm like, that's such a bummer. Because he's, you know, he's like this Mr. Rogers character of science. But I'm obsessed with.

1:38:03He's accusing you of shrimp brine. Yeah, it gets better.

1:38:05Jesse Michels:I'm super obsessed with getting the right date so you can look up the video yourself that's how you know the date yeah I oh so maybe it was a little later I used to get kicked in the head for a living I I literally when it comes to dates I have to keep all in a phone and I use photos so if you guys look up silver surfer it's probably one of the first videos on my youtube is probably there um what happens is he goes on the news I get pissed off because I didn't know about news what are you doing right so i call the news station i said wait a second i didn't superimpose anything and they just dismissed me right and i'm like the fuck but they did this like story about it so i went to deep dive investigation on my ufo sighting i mean i went into like forums and like facebook and like what was it it was called like you know all this stuff um my space and i found all these people that had also filmed i got six angles of this shit right so i went like crazy bro i was like no one's gonna tell me you know that i superposed brine shrimp and i literally weird accusation bro i literally yeah yeah i feel like i might be a nice guy um i literally it's probably a science guy as well i don't know yeah i don't know no there's oh so then i just like so then what here's the deal man i get six angles of this thing yeah so i can then figure out where it was, I figured it out.

1:39:31Jesse Michels:There's a bunch of people online. It's a funny story I'll tell you later about online who was there, but figured it out. And I got the footage from the helmet cam of the Red Bull skydiving team with iridium flares that look like the silver server. So I debunked my first UFO case in life. So that's how I finally realized, like you know you gotta fucking uh make sure and talk about something i didn't never said it was ufo i just asked the question well well even then it was a ufo it was an unidentified flying object but i solved it and i realized you can solve it i remember writing into like some ufo thing goes hey guys guys i have a solved ufo case they were so not interested in a solved ufo case it's a problem with uh you know a lot of the reporting yeah they don't want the debunks But that was kind of like a funny thing.

1:40:21Jesse Michels:So where I realized that people were disingenuous and that they were just saying shit and that they're not authority, you know, on stuff and they're not even scientists sometimes. You also, I mean, there's so many layers to that story because it does eventually get debunked by you more accurately, but there's like a fake debunk as well. And so you want the right debunk you don't want, but then you also want the community to say that the debunks are important and they didn't care about like the ultimate debunk. I would say debunk. I would say, like, you don't, so debunking means you already have an idea and you have to fit it into that idea.

1:41:01Jesse Michels:Yeah, or it means you were presenting it for sure as non-human. You weren't just saying, what is this? Analysis is important, right? Analysis. You analyze everything. Some of the UFO videos that are going to come out from the government had deep, deep, deep analysis, like instantaneous acceleration. That is what you're seeing in that video. They did not want that video out. Yeah. But even then, do you think that there are possible ways to poke holes in it and that there might be? Oh, yeah, dude. And look, one day, you know. Like if it were massless. If I get more, was massless? Like if it didn't, if it was some sort of, you know, looked real like it had mass, but it was a hologram or something.

1:41:39Jesse Michels:Bro, it got a weapons grade lock on it. Uh-huh. And by the way, fuck, how do I say this? So like, because you can technically look like you're breaking Newton's third law. If you have conservation. So you've got, so you got, so the, the debunk, not the debunk, but the plausible. And I'm not saying I believe. No, no, no. I look at book new information. I'm going to absorb it. But we learned this, uh, the hard way, uh, life did, you know, um, people did in a cool way. So yes, sure. Jesse, maybe that's not a UFO, you know, spacecraft that it's instantaneous. If you give me information, you should give it to the government, first of all, because they disagree.

1:42:18Jesse Michels:But, you know, because they have eyes on all the assets. Well, I'm sure they know that. So here's my point. That was a deep dive analysis that came out, right? Because George and I obtained and released it. Our government hasn't released it. I'm sure there's a pilot, a mission report on that. I want that. The world should have that. So, yeah. And at some point, you do your best. You put something out. And then maybe it's not what you were told or what the government thought. And the reason I'm saying this is because in these, they call them tranches of releases, there's going to be good information and bad information.

1:42:49Jesse Michels:And that's why we want it out. So people really bright minds, the internet can solve shit real quick. That's why I struggle with video myself because I'm like, I'm not a VFX guy. I don't know. So I see some of these videos and like they look compelling to me. But like you could probably give me some bullshit. And I would probably think, you know, maybe that looks compelling too. So I just try to like not even weigh in. Let me argue why it's tip of the spear. Okay. Right now. Now this should change. This should change. But right now it's tip of the spear because man, if you were with me 15 years ago, one video from the military.

1:43:24Jesse Michels:Are you kidding me? You go crazy, man. You're going to get bad stuff inside these UFO drops from the government, not because they're trying to trick you, but because certain products have been highly evaluated and there's multi-sensor platforms. some they can't show you like with the 2019 100 uap swarms some were pyramid in shape some were some were look there are other platforms so when you have multi-platform multi-sensors some of that's going to be really good and well thought out and the government should be giving that up to you but some of it's going to be like this look cool that pilot says that was all crazy and that's the pilot report but here's how we learn the hard way in a good way in those 46 videos that's the tip of the spear just to begin the process.

1:44:11Jesse Michels:The first tranche of stuff that they put out, George Knapp and I had reported on something called the Baghdad Phantom. We released seven images, which were still shots because obviously people are leaking shit. So I don't even, we make it in a way so we could never even know sometimes, but we validate everything. But we put it out. We told people, here you go. It's cold. It's running through here. And you're like, cool video, dude, right? And all of a sudden, it wasn't a video. We just stitched together the images. But the process worked. They knew that people knew about that case. So guess what was in that first tranche?

1:44:47Jesse Michels:Was the actual video of the Baghdad phantom. That felt good to me and George because we're like, look, we're pushing transparency. But what people missed, if you look and read through all the documents like a psychopath, there is a mission report of that collection. So that's before it gets into the disinformation arms of the old arrow, because now everything's going to be thumbs up from what I understand. Maybe. Maybe. No, I'm just, I'm going like this, but we're going to hold them accountable and they know that we can. They know exactly how we can. So one of those ways is look at the mission report from the Baghdad phantom that was supposed to be declassified in 2047.

1:45:26Jesse Michels:Whoa. Just the mission report. Well, that's cool that that came out it did because what it does what does the mission report say uh look at what the pilot said what what it's very simple it just it just shows the process is working before it gets like twisted by um intel agencies like arrow has been acting like one in the past given maybe future props um so so that is what i'm saying is you learn that when you put something out if the pilot report was like, oh no, we knew what this was, then I would know that wasn't a UAP. When they label it UAP, when they talk about how it went by them super fast and they tried to keep the camera on it, right?

1:46:05Jesse Michels:And they got as much footage as they could. It reinforces what I said. Central Command has a bottleneck to UAP information before it gets to the people who legally it's supposed to get to, who want the information, even Arrow. So we informed them about that and about the bottleneck at CENTCOM because we found out about it. And anything else of note that the pilot said in the background? No, it's really simple. It's just an example of a mission report. It goes with footage that you were told about three years prior to it through proper reporting, and it should give you confidence. Confidence that reporting is working and that pushing this way works.

1:46:41You mentioned Arrow. Under Kirkpatrick, it does feel like it was not only like an intel agency or something or a modern Project Blue Book kind of trying to dismiss, you know, many UFO cases. It seemed even more nefarious than that. It seemed like maybe it was acting as like kind of a fly trap. Like it was explicitly getting leads on the cases that I'm most familiar with are some of these nuclear cases. Arrow, the people that took the testimony from these veterans, did not record

1:47:12Jesse Michels:them. They were told, a couple of the veterans were told, well, we're taking notes. Well, if you're conducting a serious investigation, you want to tape record every word, every grunt, every syllable. And they did not record any of the interviews, according to the veterans. And they wouldn't take notes, but they would maybe take high level notes about where, you know, certain evidence would lie. And then they might even go and try to find that evidence and destroy it in certain cases. It just seemed like a total limited hangout with ties to UFO legacy program. The definition of bad actor agency is my rough assessment, but what's your assessment?

1:47:54Jesse Michels:For people to say I don't answer questions directly, here's a direct answer. You are 100 % correct. It is exactly my assessment, and I can back it up. And there are a number of ways, in a court of law, Arrow was acting as a counterintelligence against the American public to siphon out what people knew and then to be able to clamp down on them. It was a honey trap. It was a disinformation campaign. Dr. James Lekatzky even said that on our podcast, mine and George's, you know, he says, well, they're sure acting like it, aren't they? Or something like that. This is a known thing. Now I have direct specific knowledge and evidence of exactly how that mechanism worked recorded, documented.

1:48:48Jesse Michels:Oh yeah, bro. So for example, if somebody, but there's a lot of good people that work at Arrow, by the way, shout out to the good people. I do know some good people that work at Arrow, but it under Dr. Sean Kirkpatrick, Like all the way up from the NASA people that are sources of mine who have told me what it's like in the room with him, what he tried to do. Yeah. To the direct harassment of witnesses. I'm not talking about dismissal. I'm talking about harassment threats. And I'm not sure how far to go right now. But imagine it's recorded. So recorded. so in the court of law i could prove that arrow was intimidating and harassing whistleblowers and it's wild yeah man so fuck them sorry in that in that old version now i hear that um dr kozlovsky everybody i know that knows him professionally before he was in that role yeah my job is to have sources everywhere right yeah yeah what do they say about that he's a great guy okay i've heard similar that he's an honest guy yeah now he is in project blue box it's the modern version much more sophisticated the battlefield is is cyber the battlefield is social media it's pr notice what he asked for when he went up the last thing with all he asked wasn't more money he asked for public trust because he realized coming into that job poor guy after it was just kind of shit on by Kirkpatrick and shit on by Tim Phillips, right?

1:50:28Jesse Michels:Coming after whistleblowers publicly on like LinkedIn when, are you kidding me? Is that in your job description? Project blue box, dude. It is worse than project blue book, a book you can open a box. How do you get in? And it's, it's so bad. It's so bad because it's, you can literally tie its inception to legacy programs. So Kirkpatrick was at SAIC. If you study UFO legacy programs, SAIC is all over that stuff. Ronald Moultrie, who is undersecretary of defense, had Battelle on his resume and scrubbed it. If you, again, study anything about UFOs, in fact, you can even go back to the Pentacle memo at the inception of Blue Book, and Battelle was behind the scenes doing sort of, you know, the more real stuff while Blue Book was kind of doing the front facing things.

1:51:20So, you know, definitely legacy stuff going on there. It's obviously, you know, very close to right, Pat. You know, Ohio State, a lot of interesting stuff happening in that sort of nexus. So it's people where you don't, Glenn Gaffney is on the board of Arrow. And Glenn Gaffney, who's director of science and technology, the CIA, who's blocking UFO transfer between Lockheed and Bigelow, which we just discussed with Lekatsky. So you have three people who like...

1:51:46Jesse Michels:The guy that George Knapp said his name with his hand raised at Congress, Glenn Gaffney. That's right. Locked in the transfer of a non-human intelligence craft. I have a name for you. Go ahead. Glenn Gaffney, CIA. So those are the three people who are supposed to be helping we, the American public, make sense of UFOs. congressionally mandated. It's crazy. Dude, bro, I'm so glad you're tracking all this because the average person is not, and not everybody can track all that. So putting that out in a digestible way, explaining that to people, that there is a generational pattern of relationship, just like you would have in any organization or agency or group of people.

1:52:36Jesse Michels:Cabal. I don't know the word. Edgar Mitchell said like a group, a secret group of people. Is that what he told you? Because he said a secret group of people? Because I know you interacted with Edgar Mitchell, the sixth man to walk on the moon. Sixth man to walk on the moon. Allegedly, some people would say. I don't want to get into that. Neither here nor there. He absolutely, in the film, you see, that was the last filmed interview before he died from what i understand at this time um spent many days with him and he was very clear with me he really let me in he knew that time was ticking we became friends he lived for a little while after but that was like the only filmed like you know cameras in his home kind of interview before he died i lived lived longer but then um we we got down to brass tacks and yes that's that's exactly what he said he told me who he talked with i knew about the wilson davis thing long before wild of course yeah you know the things that george and i can't say you know um look man there is a i wish it was organized there are groups of people holding information back from me for no good fucking reason and um the idea is how do we get it out.

1:53:52Jesse Michels:We can't take it. But Mitchell talked about some sort of cabal, some sort of closely knit. Yes, he did. Interesting. Yes, he did. But not that he knew everything. Sure. And I didn't dodge your cynics question. We should get back to that for your audience, right? But yeah, Dr. Mitchell talked about how, because look, six man to walk on the moon, people want to talk with you. Born in Roswell, New Mexico, bro, right? Yeah. He, behind the scenes and in front of the scenes, tried to be an advocate for truth and transparency on this because he knew it was true. The whole enchilada. It's so interesting to me, the dynamic around this whole topic is you have people like Edgar Mitchell, you have Wernher von Braun at the end of his life talking to Carolyn Rosen.

1:54:37She texts me sometimes. Oh, amazing. Yeah, she's cool. And she's talking about some planned alien invasion. And then I feel like you have modern equivalents of them where it's like guys who are really well respected in their agencies or with their past credentials, people like Lekatsky or Hal Putoff. But those guys, everybody I just mentioned considers themselves an outsider. And that's interesting about this whole topic because you have guys who have very high security clearances who can walk into all these places, like no questions asked. Bigotless. Yeah.

1:55:14Jesse Michels:No, there's bigotless. Okay. you have to so what do you what do you yeah it doesn't matter your clearance it's need to know it's very simple yeah they're bigotless that's what happened um but there's a cabal that's deeper than warner von braun like i think of warner von braun is like he's got to be part of no but he's not he's on the inside of what he needed to know like how bob was on power and propulsion, you know, with Project Galileo. But worse, you have... I hope there is a cabal that is planning how to do this right. I don't think so because everything's been provoked and forced. But yes, all these people you know that you would imagine, like Hal put off.

1:56:02Jesse Michels:Maybe he also just can't tell you certain things, if I know for a fact. I know there's a lot he probably can't say. For example, somebody you know, and you might know this, but somebody you know worked on a laser weapon system from a downed Russian NHI spaceship. Someone you know, have they told you that? Nope. You're just saying that because you're on camera? No, I really don't know who you're talking about. Okay. But I'm extremely curious. Somebody you know worked on the reverse engineering of a laser weapon system from a downed Russian asset. This is an NHI asset. Last name, start with D. We're not playing that game in front of the camera.

1:56:47Well, there's one person who said something along those lines in a documentary.

1:56:52Jesse Michels:You're an investigator, bro. Okay, here's the deal. What I'm saying to you is that even if they wanted to, they can't tell you how much they know. Now, are they in this cabal planning shit? Oh, fuck, no. who those people are, highest, highest up on the food chain, all I found is the Kabbalah people who want you not to know, not the people that do know. Did you really hear what I just said? Because that's important. I found the people that want you not to know, but not the people that do know the full thing. I don't know that anybody does. I don't know. Blind men touching different parts of an elephant.

1:57:28Jesse Michels:There we go. I can relate to that. The parable. Yes. Something like that. So the question is, that's apparently what General Neil McCaslin told Tom DeLonge. It's in Secret Queen. But that was an op because no general like that, by the way, he's a boomer. Okay. I've learned what that word means. Now I had to look it up, which I'm not ashamed of. It's a cool word, boomer.

1:57:49Jesse Michels:Basically, anybody from that era of national defense will never, do you think he sits back and listens to Blink-182? do you think that guy honestly on his free time do you think he had been to a concert i don't know why is he talking to tom right um love tom did some amazing stuff you know he pushed this forward yeah good for tom yeah so i i'm a huge fan of his i think he's awesome his music too yes i don't and and as a person and as a person i think he's no dude i think he gets a lot he gets a bad rap sometimes absolutely vigilante like really helped get a lot you know shake the tree down and get a lot of let's make this clear yeah tom de long is yes he's a rock star but that's a tiny little piece of who he is he is like you he is curious he is fascinated he called me back in the day before he's ever he's genuinely fascinated genuinely he used to read all the books with the blink thing and he he george is always making me get on calls with people and i don't know who they are he's just really want to talk to him that i remember this call driving home from vegas from uh right after i kind of got to know um some somebody else but i'm driving back and Tom calls me.

1:58:58Jesse Michels:He's not like in the UFO world in any way at this time, and he's just talking to me. He knew so much about the UFO thing, so people put him in as like, oh, this rock star and blah, blah, blah. That's not what I'm saying. I'm not saying they wouldn't talk to him because he's a rock star. Dude, he trained with George Knapp on like how to make his approach, what the pitch is, how to use his face and his fame to get in there. You know, he got into like a Lockheed little soiree. Tom fucking did it, dude. He pushed in. He got through. He went for it. He became proactive instead of being a consumer. He was a consumer for years, like all of us reading books.

1:59:30Jesse Michels:He did that, man. And he gets a bad rap because people jealous. They weren't in that room with Tom or they weren't in this with Tom. Dude, he's a good dude. And he's super knowledgeable on the UAP thing. But when I said it was an op, this is important to me, the distinction of that. So George is helping to sharpen the pitch of Tom and hooking him up with some people, people don't know about. was, look, you got a bad rap. You've had to keep this secret. And that's going to change. So you need to look like the good guys. Because you are good guys. You were just protecting America. But now it's gone too far.

2:00:09Jesse Michels:It was something like that. That was in a WikiLeaks email, yeah. Oh, okay, yeah. So, okay, so, wow. So what happens then is you got this boomer. Now, do you think, when I say it's part of an op, I'm not saying it's bad. I'll explain the op. But do you think someone like that charged with protecting our national security, which, by the way, he's fucking missing right now? I know. Why? So that's interesting. That's really wild. Because if that was like Russia or China and they got him alive somewhere, what does he know that they want? Not UFO related? What if it's some rogue element of the program?

2:00:46Jesse Michels:Well, so that would be really sad. Mm-hmm. And that would be really fucked. Mm-hmm. so i have trouble believing it's an adversary i'm just saying all options on the table because we don't know sure but what's the op so a guy like that yeah he ain't gonna talk to tom de long he didn't listen to his music he's a boomer and he and he has this oath like lakatsky you think lakatsky be calling up rock stars talking no no no so when i say op it's not a bad thing that was an operation meaning there were people trying to get shit out now not all of it is true. And don't be one of those people that believes everything just because someone gives you one good piece of information.

2:01:25Jesse Michels:So if you look at that, and if I look at history, here's what I would think. Here's my putting on a little theoretical hat. I'm thinking that Hillary Clinton thought that she was going to be president. And I think that certain people knew that the information was dying and that we needed bright minds just a little bit We just need a little bit of knowledge out there. Or maybe she thought she'd be disclosure president because her husband really tried until they crushed down Webster Hubble after asking, look back at your history. So Clinton tried. Maybe she could be the disclosure president. Okay, how do we pave the way?

2:02:07Jesse Michels:You do an op, right? Not negative, like actual information authorized from the White House, people in the White House. now you can start seeding because when come time because I'm going to win she thought everybody thought everybody thought there was no way this guy Donald J. Trump could become president remember that? oh yeah people thought that right or I'm not a political person but I remember people saying that no he was a complete sleeper there was no way yeah yeah yeah that's what they're telling me so basically this guy McCaslin one of many that Tom was talking to obviously WikiLeaks you mentioned and Okay, so then what happens?

2:02:49Jesse Michels:Wow, shocker, she's not president. So what happens to everybody that was part of that? What happens to everybody that was prepping the battlefield for disclosure, which we all want, as long as it's true what they tell us, and not a fear campaign, right? So if it's truth, what do they do? What do all these people do now that that didn't work? you gotta, you gotta pivot. You gotta change. And we're starting to see, we've seen that if you've been paying attention, who are those people? Good people, bad people? What do they want? I think good people. Well, there was definitely a threat narrative that came out of, you know, elements of, of that group.

2:03:33But that was very, it was very like, you know, they're prepping the battle space, you know, they're, they're doing recon, they're looking at us. And I've always had an issue with that narrative in particular. I think it's sort of, I think anyone that says they're only good or they're only bad is so ridiculous. Yes, absolutely. You know?

2:03:51Jesse Michels:Yeah. And can you trust them? So if like an ET comes to you and says, I come in peace, you're going to destroy the world with your technology. You know, spread the word. No. You can't take anything at face value in either direction. Like with any human, the words don't matter. That's right. It's the action. And if somebody speaks in absolutes about intent on either side, I don't trust them. I'm like, because you're an individual and every individual has different intent. Why would it be different? But we can organize. So let's look at the fact. The fact is they've turned on nukes. They've turned off nukes.

2:04:27Jesse Michels:They didn't stop Hiroshima and Nagasaki. They've constantly been watching. Call them the watchers, right? They've been watching for what seems like the beginning of recorded human history, whoever they are. Is it one group? Is it two groups? Actions or who freaking knows? Are they angry at each other? Are we a commodity? Are they protecting us? Fact is, they haven't neutralized everybody's brain where you're walking around like a robot, right? So that we know of. That we know of, yeah. We know of. I know a few robots, but. So the threat narrative, let me hit that on the head with you. Yeah. Oh, me too.

2:05:00Jesse Michels:I think it's fucking ridiculous because if you talk to people that actually had interactions, it's like a mixed bag. Some people, it's like the greatest thing in their life. other people it was terrifying totally like patient 17 terrifying he didn't tell me that so after i saw it got cut out of his leg um this is a guy with an implant they called it an implant i had it isotopically analyzed for zinc 64 one time and they wouldn't give me it back i talked with jacques bellet showed him the results it was way beyond the scope of terrestrial zinc 64 isotopically i'm not a fucking scientist but it had isotope ratios that you'd never find on earth and roger lear took this out of this patient yes this was this last we can get to patient 17 threat narrative.

2:05:40Jesse Michels:This is for you. I'm talking to you. I don't give a shit about this. I agree with you. Here's the thing. Why? Why do they have that narrative? Don't look at them like bad folks. Like why? I think it's probably some sort of armaments build up in space and, you know, things of that. You're a deeper thinker than me. All I'm thinking is it's their fucking job. Sure. Yeah. When you're a hammer, everything looks like a nail. That too. So all these people are coming from a military intelligence, national defense standpoint, they have to think about it. It's in their blood to think about it. But I would just say one, I would add one thing to what you just said, which is I agree with that.

2:06:21And then it's like, why now as well? So like there's some sort of ramp up in the threat narrative. It seemed like around that time. And so maybe it's because we're in a nuclear multipolar world, but like the nuclear thing had been happening. since the 50s, 60s, 70s, the tampering with the nukes and stuff. So the going public about this could be a threat seemed to start at that time. I don't know why. I'm curious.

2:06:48Jesse Michels:That is fact, but let's play that out. Is that because there is a threat in their minds that - Yeah, it could be genuine. They could really believe it's a threat. I suspect it. I don't feel like they're trying to make humanity scared of it. Like on the big scale, that's not the big message I'm getting from all of this movement. It, for me, it's more of curiosity. Let's say they did that. Let's say that there, it's an operation to control people. That's ultimately what you're saying is that I think you correct me if I'm wrong. No, I'm not even going that far. I think it's possible. Anything's possible.

2:07:28Anything is possible. And I was with this and I think it's a smoke screen. I think it's a Rorschach test, and I think it could get used for blue beam style stuff, you know, religious awakening. It could get used to clamp down, and then it could be extremely libertarian and subversive of any kind of institutional authority structures. And so it has this infinite superposition of possibilities attached to it. And I do think people are trying to manage the narrative. I think they're trying to manage the narrative and shape the narrative less than some of the people I meet on like, you know, Reddit forums or whatever think they are.

2:08:08Like you meet these people and they're like just earnestly into it. And maybe they've been socialized in certain spheres to believe certain things and that shapes their belief in implicit ways. I think there are less sort of, you know, bad actors, I think, than some of the people on the Internet think, you know, that's for fuck sure. But, yeah, you know, look, I mean, we just listed a bunch of bad actors, but it's like there are bad actors, but it's yes, it's not it's not everyone. And it's I find it interesting that there's there's a certain type of person who's it's like they're so they're real.

2:08:41They're angry and they're railing against the control system around UFOs. It's like this parapsychological control system around this whole topic. And my second-order thought is always, if you're spending all your time so angry at this, you're probably part of the control system. You're probably falling prey to it.

2:08:59Jesse Michels:Well, not only falling prey, but you are allowed to run psychological campaigns of disinformation on the American public as Americans. That is legal. That is law. You're allowed to do that. Is that true? That's what that from my understanding, like Google that shit, look it up. But from the Obama era, the idea of protective programs and being able to seed American news. Look, we've been doing it. That's interesting. Did it start? It became legalized somehow under Obama. That's what smarter people, legal scholars. That's fascinating. I don't know if that is accurate. So I'm not a legal scholar.

2:09:36But that makes me wonder about some of the UFO-related narratives that popped up around that time. Because maybe it was on the back somewhat of, you know, the Obama law change or whatever.

2:09:51Jesse Michels:So fact check me on that. That is my understanding, right? This propaganda, the idea, right? That we're allowed to deceive the American public for protective programs, right? That is 100 % legal. And now the new terrain is all digital because that is the way that we consume information. So the real battlefield is the battlefield of freedom of thought. And that occurs on social media, in news, in all media that is consumed. And they've gotten very, very savvy to the point where you, I mean, it's so easy. Like if you get an AI to look at the repeated words and the timing in which people post and when they created their accounts, dude, I've got a whole list of people everybody says I should block because it's an organized attempt to take a single post I had to say and then, you know, diminish it and make me less credible.

2:10:44Jesse Michels:so that that that world exists oh yeah and it's called shaping the emerging uap narrative why i've said that now for the 400th time on camera is because i was exposed to a cia document that gave the mandate the mandate was to shape the emerging uap narrative which i thought was so interesting not control not stop shape it that's why as if they know this narrative is emerging so how do we shape it? And I'll tell you, there is a news source. Was there anything specific about how they were shaping it? In what direction? So the documents that I am familiar with are CIA documents. I reported those to FBI with George because it is illegal.

2:11:32What they started saying in it is Commander Fravor misidentified

2:11:41Jesse Michels:his instrumentation. And I was thinking, yeah, it's picked up on radar, motherfucker. How the hell did he saw it with his eye? What are you talking about? There were five other sets of eyes up there. So I started thinking about as I'm exposed to this, like, is this document real? First of all, I was just exposed to it. I don't know how better to say it here legally. I was exposed to it, never had possession of it, don't have it, was exposed to it. How I validated that document was through DOJ. So this document was talking about shaping the emerging UAP narrative. I will tell you this, there is a news publication that popped up right around the Lazar movie coming out era and I saw them grasp the ground and the terrain that is a CIA stood up media source and they were trying to say oh this is a real there's like this is like an outlet that is an online publication and you know the name and it's like yeah bro yeah bro so can you hear you say or what the day i'll talk to you in person about it but i think i think we want the world to think yeah and question yeah and then review yeah i gave you enough information now to know yeah that is a cia that stood up media outlet okay so what are the clues it was popped up around around the lazar time yeah one of the best um yeah around the lazar time i'll get maybe i'll i'll text you more specific we'll put some images in and just fucking blast them out okay but there's a bunch of people that work for it that are good people.

2:13:18Jesse Michels:They have no fucking idea. They're literally just getting a job, but you'd have to kind of operate this from overseas is another hint, right. Um, on this publication and are the UFO specific or not. So that's, what's funny is, um, yes and no, like there's other really good articles and writers and there's like great valid stories, but when you need something seated into the media as CIA, it's great to have a bunch of people working for this and then any story that comes down from the king you put in and you know exactly which writers to talk about you know to talk to to see them some very special information that is breaking news it's so classic textbook cia we go back to you know even um i heard that a lot of the journalists you know were on payroll we've got their names now and what they were paid and all this stuff all the way down to people you really trusted back in the 60s whoa right Because of Operation Mockingbird.

2:14:15Jesse Michels:I think this is public knowledge, right? I think I might know what publication you're talking about. So if they can't buy you, if they can't seduce, I'll use that word, like seduction, whatever that means, like something alluring. If they don't have blackmail on you and then they try and can't get you to bite on that blackmail, then they're kind of running out of options. So what can they do? They can start to diminish your public profile and they can threaten you. And that's the way you control somebody. Now, they're not trying to stop people who have loud voices because you're useful. These are intelligence operations, right?

2:14:58Jesse Michels:You're useful to them if they can get one of those five things I just mentioned to shape what you're saying. And that's what's so dangerous. I mean, you got to be squeaky clean, watch your back. You got to document everything. When Chuck McCullough says in my movie, not my movie, Michael Luzofsky's movie, I gave him 20 years of footage. He made it. And to my chagrin, if that's the right word, like I had to ask my whole family, like, is it okay? Can I show the dog? You know, he wants to do this. It should be protection. He's saying it's protection. So what, what my point is, what are they, what are they doing by shaping the narrative that's already emerging?

2:15:38Jesse Michels:Is it sinister? Is it what Jesse Michaels said right now? Is it to create a level of control and threat so everybody goes, oh God, big daddy government, protect me because there's something coming, like a big craft really slowly to earth. Oh my God, so scary. Or is it to acclimate you for something that they know is going to occur. That's the other possibility. And I hear mutterings of that all the time, all the time of like, you know, certain dates and, you know, and I, I, I almost like the, the, um, book of Matthew of like, you know, only God knows the, the, the day or whatever on the apocalypse that applies to, and that has its own stigma.

2:16:22And I shouldn't even say, you know, reference those things in the context of kind of a more scientific conversation. But I think that applies to this, you know, 2026 or seven or 35. No one knows. Only God knows. Or only some omniscient force knows. Or it's

2:16:36Jesse Michels:just complete and utter bullshit. Or it's a complete BS. The funny thing is, I can call BS like I did on that. I tried to get out ahead of, you know, you're behind the eight ball, I'm going to be ahead of the eight ball. And then when I came out and said, look, all these intel people, I have taken all of this information, these conversations, all this data, I basically run it through a way to look for key repeated words. And I found that I, and very directly too, was trying to be utilized to propagate, oh, you want something really special is happening. Like something really special, but I'm just going to tell you.

2:17:14Jesse Michels:What the fuck? Tell everybody if it's really special. It's important, right? So the manipulation of me, that's why I came out and said, look, my fear is that you're going to be told that there is a craft slowly moving to earth and it's bullshit. And then, you know, just the world. I was, I was told that too. And you were, yeah. And I knew it. But I always just, whenever I get something like that, I just, I just don't like, I'm like, I know what you're doing. This is passage material. This is a test. It's, it's probably some sort of bizarre passage material slash. Can I trust you hybrid or something?

2:17:50And I'm like either fucking way. I just don't want to like ever mention it again.

2:17:54Jesse Michels:My fear is that. and then if somebody totally independent says something that i'm like okay maybe but you're the reason one of the reasons why i would say that publicly because you know i knew i'd get shit for and everybody would like you know cut that up and make me seem like a crazy person i said it out loud it's because people like you have said to me that you were getting that same shit oh yeah now all these people speaking loudly are getting the same messaging and it's like so we have to defend against that or we become a part of that machine and mechanism now ultimately end of the day i don't fucking know but i highly fucking doubt that that is yeah accurate assessment of what's happening in 20 20 36 whatever yeah yeah yeah but hey i'd be wrong do you think i think there's something so unique going back to lazar there's something so unique about him because he's this uh kind of hapless like normal person engineer he's not he doesn't have any sort of counter-intel background or anything like that.

2:18:53Do you think we get another Bob Lazar coming out near term? Because I think that's what a lot of people want. I don't think they want the person who saw the thing on the document or who knew the other guy and that person worked directly. I think they want another Lazar. We almost got it. And he's dead.

2:19:14Jesse Michels:Tell me more. You know about this, right? Sullivan. Right. Yeah. Okay, so a little example. Yeah. Fact. He was to testify behind closed doors. Matthew Sullivan for everybody's watching. Right. Matthew Sullivan was one of the 40 people, you know, that number's loose. There's probably more, that David Grush brought to the attention of the ICIG. Matthew Sullivan was, fact, two weeks about before he died, I think, going to testify. We call it behind closed doors because you know how many people I've taken in to speak in DC that you will never see publicly. This is to inform them, taking them in to testify.

2:20:01Jesse Michels:You're under oath. You're in a skiff. I have facilitated over 10. Oh yeah. Well, yes. So, so, so the question is this Matthew Sullivan. Now I didn't know him personally, but I knew he was going to testify. And that is testifying. And that's why people and the FBI are investigating if his death was suspicious, because it ain't adding up all the math. Now he could have just been PTSD and broken down and scared, but that's not the word on the wash. So I don't have any direct knowledge that I can talk about of that case. But I do know the FBI is looking into it and there's a congressional letter that I do mention, if you read between the lines, I didn't know that this could be public.

2:20:52Jesse Michels:I didn't know this was going to be public. He's one of the two people that I'm talking about when I say, you know, mortal crimes. We don't know. it's a suspicious death and um he was going to testify behind closed doors he had direct direct hands-on with the craft that would be like lazar wouldn't it so man they wanted to stop lazar they don't want people that would convince everybody out because now were you in touch with it's a really sad story and um i just know okay i was kind of trying to figure that out recently i get a lot of signal messages and they delete a lot and um i did get a message from him and it deleted and usually i try to be good about keeping those but it was on a thing but i never talked with him i i was trying to figure that out because my memory but um you know i can show you on my phone what happened that's a bummer man it's a bummer because i was hoping maybe he was reaching out because i could take people from embryo scared dylan borland you see him in the movie that audio he knows i speak always on speakerphone and by my nest cameras he knows that so dylan borland um he knew that i was doing that for our own protection so in the movie you hear him really scared and that's way before we knew that we were going to get him standing hand to God and to country and be able to testify.

2:22:27Jesse Michels:That road is so hard. It takes me two and a half months sometimes for national security people to vet some of the witnesses that I want to testify to you. A lot you'll never hear about. You never got to hear Daniel Gauquerel. Small story, but I had him unweaponized after. He saw a triangle. But these badass motherfuckers that worked on the programs, you have to understand they're so locked down. They're not in there because they're trusted. They're in there because they have legacy generational trust. Most of the people in the legacy atmosphere, it's not because just you are trusted. It's because your grandfather was trusted.

2:23:03Jesse Michels:Your father was trusted. You got kids who are going to be trusted in that same intelligence circles. So they're so tightly packed in there. to get somebody to break out of that cage is dangerous for a lot of reasons because why would you do that? You have to think this is so critically important. Otherwise, keep your head down, do your work. You're on one of the coolest projects on planet Earth, literally. Do you understand what I'm saying? I do. Yeah. That's crazy that maybe he was taken out. I don't know, bro. The timing's weird. There's a lot I can say about that. But I, yeah. Yeah. Let the DOJ do their job.

2:23:44Jesse Michels:Okay. Damn. But you feel pretty confident that he was working directly on the craft. To the best of my knowledge, do I feel very confident? Absolutely. Do I have all the information? No. But I think people that have more information than me and knew him should speak to you, not me. Interesting. About him. Is there going to be somebody? Man, it shouldn't be on Bob Lazar. Our government should come forward, and this is the problem. The first release is a bunch of videos, a bunch of documents. Wait a second. Didn't David Grush raise his hand and say that we have been generationally exploiting non-human technology, hand to God and to country, and say that we have these programs?

2:24:27Jesse Michels:And didn't he say that we have alien bodies? By law, didn't he say that? Oh, shit. Where was that in the releases? The IC inspector general said, this is urgent and credible. Sure. But now we got a real issue. The ICIG is the police of the intelligence community. That might come out later. The question being this, who's the real watchdog here? Can we trust them? Well, it doesn't seem like they've acted on Grush's report that he handed in in 2022, four years ago. So, I don't know. You know, I hear there's a guy, and I hear he's a really good guy. And I hear that he is the current ICIG. And I hear that his name is Christopher Fox.

2:25:19Jesse Michels:And I hear that if someone like him, being active ICIG, wanted to and didn't have to recuse himself for some reason, that there's actually four people. because I've talked with Chuck, who was the first ICIG in American history. So he, you know, pretty much, I'm pretty sure he knows the job. I think if they wanted to, that they could rapidly come to conclusion on that ICIG report. I think the ICIG, I think that they also have the video footage of Dylan Borland's testimony. So I think that this could be very rapidly sorted out if people wanted to you feel what i'm saying yeah and i also think the one thing i didn't tell you because we got into a different space is the fourth thing that i heard directly from odni is that dylan borland drew a fourth drawing of a sensor system oh but that's really classified because it's not ufo related at all now wait a second they were asking me did he draw that for me.

2:26:28Jesse Michels:Motherfucker, he drew me a triangle on camera. Didn't draw nothing else. Here's what I know as fact. Dylan Borland wouldn't even know what the fuck they're talking about or how to, how do you draw a sensor system, Jesse? You're a smart guy. You're basically a fucking scientist. How do you draw a sensor system? So they lied to me. Why did they lie to me? They lied to me to get Dylan Borland on treason, which carries a life sentence or death penalty. They lied to me about Matthew Brown saying he's a Jew hating racist. That's so crazy. Oh, when I told him he was at a Jewish wedding, he was like, what?

2:27:09Jesse Michels:By the way, he's part Jewish. Let's back up and tell people who is Matthew Brown. Okay. I just want you to know that Odie and I ran an operation for nine months. not all of them are bad people actually all of them are good people but some of them are doing a job what their mission was their mission if i had to assess it's just my opinion was to co-opt me and george to go against whistleblowers and to fabricate evidence fabricate evidence against an american hero a whistleblower named dylan borland to fabricate evidence against matthew Brown to pressure everybody into a corner, but why? Ultimately, to control Congress's ability and ambition to continue what they're doing, having hearings.

2:28:04Jesse Michels:I could probably prove that. Actually, I could prove that in the court of law. So, wow, motherfucker, we got that going on. then put on top of that did you see a few days ago that the head of the dig the director's initiative group which was the part of odi and i that came to me and to george first and we provided them a ton of whistleblowers and people just saying hey telling the whistleblowers we don't know if we can trust them but do your best right and they did it most of them talked with them i very smartly David Grush didn't, I don't think, I am confident Tulsi Gabbard was completely unaware that the CIA was running an operation through ODNI on journalists, on whistleblowers who were bringing in saying they have ultimate authority to protect you.

2:29:05Jesse Michels:You can tell them anything. But wink, wink to the whistleblowers, really careful, throw them some underhanded pitches first to make sure they're not running something. Here's what we find out. A few days ago, a CIA agent goes in front of Congress and he says, I ran the dig. He got emotional in it. He's like, the CIA, he said, I ran the dig, the director's initiative under Tulsi. And I don't think she was aware that she had these rogue elements, like we're talking about, little cabals from the CIA, by the way, running this op on us. And he says, like he's a whistleblower, he says. He found out that when he was running, the anomalous health affects the COVID cover-up and the UAP initiative of the dig.

2:30:02Jesse Michels:That they found out, and he's CIA, They found out the CIA was spying on the whistleblowers. That means everybody that we brought in, their computers, their cell phones, everything. He's self-admitting. He's self-admitting. CIA's response was, he wasn't authorized to speak to you on Twitter. You're like, what the fuck? You're not denying those claims? That is illegal. He said that's illegal. He got emotional in it. I don't know this guy, John. John something the third. I don't know him. oh boy we should have a talk because if you ran the dig did you know that they were trying to entrap me george dylan matthew lou elizondo lakatsky um jay stratton like did you know that as the head of the dig did you know that but i suspect i want to see the unclassified version of that report.

2:31:01Jesse Michels:Who's Matthew Brown? That's what you asked. Yeah. Wow. That's interesting. And that's just breakfast. Let's get to lunch. You have the agency that's supposed to oversee all other intelligence agencies being red teamed by what's supposed to be a subordinate agency in the CIA. That's a pretty wild phenomena. I think that's why people like you because you just took a very complex thing that I'm very emotional about because they tried to hurt people I care about and use me to do it. And you just made it simpsified. I try. Thank you. Yeah. Okay, who's Matt Brown? While they are observing the Russian vessels, a large black triangle materializes or decloaks or something.

2:31:47The point is, is it did not move. It appeared directly above these ships, probably no more than 200 meters. Matt Brown, courageous as fuck.

2:31:58Jesse Michels:I mean, just goosebump, courageous as fuck, Matt Brown. Absolutely 100 % worthy of your trust. Has a loving family relationship. I met his dad, his mom. I think two of his brothers. Talked with his wife. He's got cats. You know, he said to... Seems like kind of a gentle soul. he's not as fragile as people think because he'll tremble when he gets angry or scared or nervous and I'd be nervous as fuck too I snuck him in to have a secret congressional briefing with three members who all said yes to me snuck him in with my camera crew he has balls of steel he's so smart what an asset to America patriot he's a patriot worthy of your trust I said that I want to say it again he revealed Immaculate Constellation to the world that was a thing

2:33:17Jesse Michels:he has endured more than I'm comfortable saying here from a personal standpoint he was at the office of the Secretary of Defense right? State department. He was at the state department. Yeah. That was his main job, but he was at Pentagon before that. And he had TSSEI and he was doing some like audit or something. How did he run into all of this UFO related info? Fuck. I mean, I think Matt should talk for himself. So, so you notice sometimes people say, I don't, I am so protective of people. and you know there's so much that goes into my brain that like i have to be um gentle with because one wrong little word and i expose something they didn't want exposed about them personally and then they get harassed but high level he was doing some routine thing and he bumped into documentation i can tell you this part yeah so on a shared intel link server there was something misappropriately uploaded.

2:34:20Jesse Michels:So anybody can go in. But at the time, he was kind of in a purgatory. It's like, fuck, he has to basically clean up a bunch of files. Now he's fastidious also, a good word, right? So he goes in and looks through everything and puts him in the right place. Boom, sees Immaculate Constellation. The heck is this, right? It actually had a picture of Lou Elizondo on it. Not that Lou made that. It was saying that Lou came forward in the UAP space, but it caught his attention, right? Okay. And then he starts going through it and he's like, dude, this is not supposed to be on this server. So what did a real patriot like Matthew Brown do?

2:35:00Jesse Michels:First thing, because everybody can see he goes to his boss or his boss's boss and he's like, hey, this was not supposed to be there. I was not supposed to see this. It looks like a working report. And they're like, okay, cool. Goes back to his desk or whatever. And I hope I'm saying this right. And Matt, you can speak for yourself. And you will very soon. People are going to find out. So how I understand it is he was so nervous by how they reacted to the spillage, they call it, where you see something that you're not supposed to be read into, that he's like, dude, they're going to throw me under the bus if I need to tell somebody else.

2:35:41Jesse Michels:So he goes and tells somebody else. And the reaction kept being this like, okay, but like no assurances to him. Are you doing the right thing? So that gets under your skin. You get a little worried, right? I mean, your whole career is your clearances. If they even put your clearances in purgatory like they did to Dylan for years. They're not saying you don't got it. And these are people trusted by our government. In Dylan's case, really, really trusted, bro. I can't say the agency specifically he worked for, but you could subcontract for the big ones. So there's Matthew alone. Who are you going to call?

2:36:23Jesse Michels:Batman. Who are you going to call, dude? So he proactively, being a very thoughtful person, documented everything. Every move, everything documented for self-protection also because he's like, why did I get exposed to that? And also I think as a curious guy, he had some time on his hands and probably kept his eye out for UAP information. And here's a guy that like an all-source analyst, I don't think he was, but like one, you kind of start putting together what they call the mosaic and you look for what you know to be true, then as a dutiful patriotic person, when he realized what was going on and how dangerous it was, and that's as far as I'm going to say about that, he can talk because not everything's cleared for him yet.

2:37:16Jesse Michels:He can't go last State Department again.

2:37:21He came to me very early on and was able to get that information into the hands of the people that I trusted, and I do trust still, and were in position of power

2:37:45Jesse Michels:and could assess it. That's how it began with Matthew Brown. That's how it began. He didn't know who to trust at first. He made some mistakes. We won't get into all of that. But some people are not worthy of your trust at all. Journalists don't try to pay people ever, Jesse. Interesting. That's not a journalist. There was something. Bro, let's not get into it, right? You said you don't want to. Okay. So let's not. We can if you want. Dude, let's talk about things that excite us. Okay. One day people will understand. Yeah. One day people will understand what makes me angry. I didn't know anything about possible pain.

2:38:32Jesse Michels:I know you didn't. That's why you, no, no. We're not saying specifics yet. Don't make an assumption. No, I know. You might've just made an assumption. Well, I think I made a correct assumption. We can just move on. This is going to be so awkward for your audience, but Jesse and I, we made one agreement going on. Is that there's, you know, we're just going to talk freely and that we're going to enjoy ourselves and talk about what makes us happy and inspires us and sparks our curiosity. It's basically what we said last night, right? Yeah, exactly. So I want to do that. And to your credit, I did say I like to focus way more on the truth than people drama.

2:39:08Jesse Michels:Right, right, right. Because I think it's so much more interesting. But it's an important heuristic. if a person is also, you know, a conduit for information. So people, people draw my stay out of, but dangerous people, I inform everybody about it because the thing is, is that you got to know who to trust. So you're not working in government. I'm not working in government. So we sign out none of these NDA shit. We don't got to do fuck, fuck all when it comes to UAP stuff, right? With listening to what people tell us to do like daddy, right? but other people do. So the stakes for them are so much higher.

2:39:49Jesse Michels:So imagine if there were a bunch of whistleblowers and they go to the wrong person to say, I need to see if you can get me from embryo to hand to God and the American public, right? And you go to the wrong person. That could be one of those five traps I told you. And then you're controlled. They own you and you're fucked. So if you're outside of this world, that might feel dramatic to you. The problem is, is that it's true. And that is a real issue. So let's say you've got, I get photos from people at Wright Patterson and they've got up on their cork boards, you know, weaponized stickers, jesse michaels podcast their favorite people come up to me on the street and tell me that they love your podcast i sent you videos yeah some of your fans so like you get people in these offices and they got they're they're just fans okay they don't know much about ufos but they they saw some shit on radar this happened or that happened and then you narrow in from those let's say that's 5 000 people right that have hit me up in the last year that are inside government then you narrow down So now you've got, let's say, 500 people.

2:41:01Jesse Michels:So those 500 people, they know something a little bit more very specifically about UAP and whatnot and the reality. And then you narrow it down to, let's say, 50 people. Now they feel like they want to tell Congress or Senate or formally report. I'll get those calls. How do I formally do this? What's the mechanism? Who can I trust, not trust? And I'm like, okay, well, here's how you do it. I'll link you with them. We'll make a call. I'll bring you in if it's really important. I'll meet you there. We'll do this. Signal's okay for that. Then you get from those, what was that, 50 people? You get in and you narrow down to, let's say, 10 people.

2:41:40Now, those 10 people, they know something more.

2:41:44Jesse Michels:And those 10 people, they really need to tell people. But okay, so you got to deal with those 10 people. Then you narrow down to, let's say, five people. the amount of information they have compared to those 500, 5 ,000, it's like critical. It's provable. It can be national security issue. It could be dangerous. How hard is it, do you think, for someone like that to break from the fold and say, I have fucking tried everything. I am now going to leak something to a journalist I trust, which is an illegal act. And I've never solicited. I actually tell people, like a young kid called me from a base and blah, blah, blah.

2:42:36Jesse Michels:And I go, stop. Don't even talk to me. You got a long career ahead of you. Whatever you saw or think you saw, keep it in your head. And one day you'll be able to speak freely about it. Do not tell me. You know that joke I have going right now, don't call me. And I've got that number going on. That's what that's born from. I say to people, don't call me ever again. Find me in 10 years when we're living in a different world. You got a long life ahead of you. It's not that important for your life and your family. But I'm just trying to show you that the amount of people that know, dude, but then the amount of people that know that would think it's so important to leak something is so minuscule.

2:43:19It's so tiny that it baffles me to this

2:43:22Jesse Michels:day that people all day, every day, contact me and George and they put that trust in us and they should, and we're trustworthy. And, and, you know, we do get leaks. We assess them for years and we, our primary things do not hurt American security. I think that's why we've been effective, but I'm just trying to show you, man, like you talk about a cabal and all this. I don't know who knows all this, but I know who doesn't want you to know about it. Yeah. Matthew Brown's super interesting to me, especially your interviews with George Knapp and him, because he obviously ran into some pretty hardcore, you know, Immaculate Constellation documents around quarantining, censors.

2:44:05Jesse Michels:To be real clear, Matthew Brown is not a leaker. He did everything by the book because we just went from that conversation. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That wasn't a segue in my head. Matthew Brown tried to do everything under God that he could do the right way. And he did. He got pre-pub from State Department, you know? So it's like just, boom, here we are, Matthew Brown, you want to say something, go. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, so he ran into all this kind of documentation of this stuff and he saw video and photos and that sort of thing. And then he has kind of a whole worldview that he's kind of associated with his findings that feels almost like Gnostic in nature.

2:44:46and he talks at the end of your interview, he says, you know, people are a resource maybe for the NHI. And he says things that to me are extremely intriguing because I prefer actually in some ways like the sense making layer, like what's the worldview, what's the ontology that, you know, you were talking about earlier that comes from all the data, not just what's the data. Sometimes I think we over index on the data itself. So I mean, extremely like my curiosity peaked. And then my other side of my brain is like, but how did he come to that conclusion?

2:45:21Jesse Michels:It's a personal thing. Sure. Yeah. So everybody, um, again, I don't want to speak about people. They speak about themselves, but you know, he has a very fascinating mind. I can say that like from his own personal stuff, the way he, um, sees the world is a fact. I mean, I learned so much, you know from like a sensei something's born before in him uh even if we disagree on the fundamental nature of that reality i think what you're highlighting is it online he said some very gnostic kind of quoting things and yeah that's the way his mind talk about almost like a white house timeline manipulator too like they have sort of timeline yeah like they have some sort of ai timeline thing oh really yeah yeah yeah it was like a super super ai dude the white house We should always be ourselves, right?

2:46:11Jesse Michels:That's the thing. In this interview, I keep thinking, Jesse asked a question, he's got something to say, and then I say so much. We got to just be ourselves. Matthew has a very unique way of thinking. He's so pointed and fastidious, and he'll be silent a lot of time on calls and just listening, and then he'll say something, And it's very thought out, very thoughtful. So I think what you're seeing is what we call personality. Yeah, sure. Yeah, yeah. I just, okay, well, at some point, maybe when this is all said and done, 10 years into the future of disclosure, and it's all acceptable, I want to go deep with him.

2:46:55Or if I can at any point, go deep with him on how did he get from the data to that worldview? Because the worldview is interesting to me. I'm like, what, you know, what happened there? But I realized he's got to speak for himself.

2:47:09Jesse Michels:I don't think that was from, like, if you read the documents or saw the videos that he has testified to seeing, right? He hasn't been allowed yet with his hand up in front of Congress. We fought hard for that. He didn't want to have his face out there, you know, at all. But I think if you read the same stuff, because I know a lot of people that read and saw the same stuff and more than he did. they don't have the same worldview. Interesting. Yeah, yeah. So it's not like in the documents. That's just his interpretation. That's what I'm saying. Okay. Well, that's helpful. I mean, even what you just said is really helpful, that other people have consumed the same thing and not come to the same worldview conclusion.

2:47:50Jesse Michels:He'll admit, Matthew Brown has this much of the mosaic. Yeah, yeah. A tiny, tiny, all he did was be a whistleblower. Yeah. Because there's a lot of other things that he can't talk about. There's a lot of things, corruption, things to do with WMDs, that was his specialty, that he also whistleblow on, that people don't know about. It's just not public. That's freaky. But on another note, because I'm sure you can't say more about that, and maybe a good note to end on and close this amazing conversation. What do you hope for the world? You know, 10 years from today, you know, snapshot of where we are with respect to this issue specifically.

2:48:42What do you hope to see?

2:48:45Jesse Michels:It's like, you know, I can't look back, but I'm trying to look forward now. It's kind of, if the truth is that

2:48:59Jesse Michels:there are technologically advanced craft that they've been here since the beginning of recorded human history if not before that major all the major technological nations on earth have started to try to understand and replicate and grow and evolve from that technology. And if the truth is that we've harmed people and lied, our representatives have lied to us. And if that is true, and if we have biological entities that are not from planet earth. Have you talked to anybody who's said they've seen biologics? Yes. In my work, 100%. Wow. A ton. But Jesse, I need more proof and I can't solicit. Sure.

2:49:59Jesse Michels:As a journalist, it's a specific word. So, of course, do I believe them? About half of them, the top dogs. Other people, they just want to seem cool or they want to get into my head for later. Yeah. yeah i've heard that mostly autopsy reports okay yeah anybody like in person with the people have told me that jesse yeah but like like actually a public interview i did once um the anonymous interview um when i brought richard dolan in to interview this man as he was dying on like i think it was like a dialysis machine and we got him out of the thing and he came his wife didn't want him is this oscar wolf yeah yeah yeah it's his real name but i wasn't allowed to release that for like a long time.

2:50:44Jesse Michels:I have his DD-214s. That's a crazy story. Yeah. It's fascinating. I had to be real quiet about his real name for a long time, but it was, I have his DD-214s, all his stuff. I was setting up that interview with Reuben Langdon, who set up the entire citizen hearing on disclosure. He saw an alien getting interviewed, according to him. At S4, Area 51, I believe? At S4, we viewed the autopsy film, and then the colonel said, what we've got in here is we're interviewing a gray alien bro um that is so in my ancient past i'd say just watch the video yeah my impression is that um if i recall he was one of the people that i'm saying that has like said that because you asked me a live alien no not a ton of people have said to me they've been or seen a live alien in government capacity yeah but versus experiences yeah but a lot of autopsy readouts and i know which autopsy so that you start narrowing it down after the years and you know people that don't know each other have kind of run enough where you're pretty high confidence that oh we got a component of it yeah we got bodies yeah yeah but like i don't are they cybernetic like are they um printed flesh with ai high fucking minds i don't fucking know um but yeah i think that's the ultimate thing so you're asked you were asking me to go what do i hope yeah what do you hope yeah i'm just trying to sorry for the detail no no i'm trying to stay on your track yeah so it's like ultimately if i keep saying if if this is true if this is true this is my best assessment right then i would hope that those tasked with withholding the fundamental nature of what it means to be human, which is to interact with a larger idea of being, would then stand the fuck down, tell the fucking truth, and let human beings decide for them fucking selves if they can handle it.

2:52:56Jesse Michels:That's what I would hope. Now, people have hoped for disclosure for a long time, way before me. Before I was born, I was born in 77. Before I was born, none of them got it. Now we are getting something right now, but we're not having the conversation. No, but I hope it snowballs. I think you kind of saw it with the Epstein stuff where a little bit came out and then people were like, whoa, there's something there. And then they wanted more and they wanted more and they wanted more. And then you have all of a sudden representatives in the civilian, you know, Congress who are fighting to get more out and you get more and more documentation and slowly it just kind of snowballs.

2:53:40And I think that might be similar with this topic or JFK or a lot of these things where the consensus just shifts over, over a long time horizon. Um, so it, while I, you can sort of, you know, I know a lot of people kind of belittled this drop or think it's a distraction or whatever. Uh, I think it's, uh, the beginning of infinity. It's not the end. It's the beginning of a possible paradigm shift. And that's so exciting. The beginning of infinity.

2:54:09Jesse Michels:I was saying it's the floor, not the ceiling. It is the beginning of infinity. I am hopeful that we're going to get somewhere. But the only way we get there is if we push and we do it asymmetrically. And everybody that has a voice and everybody that has a desire, just use it. Just move. Keep talking. Don't take nothing personal. Sticks and stones will break my bones, but words will never hurt me, right? Just push, push. I bet you that tomorrow we will know more than we do today. I bet you when people see this, we'll know more than we knew the day before. And yeah, man, I'm optimistic. I'm glad to have you in the fight.

2:54:47Jesse Michels:And everybody that has a microphone or thumbs can just make some noise. On that beautiful inspirational note, go watch Sleeping Dog. Check out Weaponized. Subscribe. Anything else you want to plug? I want to say that it took a long time for me and Jesse to trust each other because trust is never given. It's always earned and then it's built. and then every day you keep reinforcing, you know, the trick of being trustworthy is to actually be trustworthy. And so I'm grateful that we get this construct, the room, and we get to do this for the first time and that, you know, we will continue this dialogue until we're old, old, old men.

2:55:40That's what I kept thinking this whole conversation. It was so fun and, you know, I would love to run it back.

2:55:43Jesse Michels:Yeah, but just keep fighting, keep pushing, keep doing what you're doing. And I would like to do a two-minute rapid fire because I have questions for you. You can put it in your episode or not. Sure, yeah. So this is back and forth, rapid fire. Okay. Okay. Did you start this, what you're doing, with the intention to try to get information to the public that you thought was important? Yes. are you independent or are you controlled independent i know um do you have people that support you in your life so that you'll keep going like loved ones and yes yeah i do yeah okay have you found friends that you really trust at this point in this part of your journey?

2:56:37Jesse Michels:I have, yeah. On this topic? I had before this. On this topic? On this topic, yes, for sure. Yeah. Will you protect that? Always, yeah. Before anything, before relationships over anything. Will you tell the truth if you find out something is incorrect and will you tell it loudly? Oh, yeah. I believe you. Thank you, Jeremy. I'm glad I passed the test. It's not a test. I learned those things about you through time. But now maybe people learn about you because you just told it how it is. Yeah, I love it. There we go. You got a lot of people that are suspicious of you. I know. And I was. Yeah, fair enough.

2:57:22Yeah. But here we are. Here we are. It's frustrating to me. And it makes me want to quit sometimes because it's like, it's like, fuck, like, what do you do? You know, like, it's a, the offense on a conspiracy about yourself is always going to beat the defense. Like, you can always say shit about me and whatever. And so I can always say you're wrong, you know, you're just wrong. And I can point to the facts, but then you can always construct a new thing. And so, you know, it's like, yeah, it's tough.

2:57:54Jesse Michels:I don't know. That is a reality is that people do want to quit. And that is the work of a very organized attempt sometimes, sometimes. And we need to identify that and we need to bring it into the light. And you're not gonna quit because you told me just now that you do have people that love you and support you about keep going. And it feels like a mission that's higher than me. So that's why I, the part that wants to quit is like the ego that wants to remain intact and like wants to stay out of the limelight. Fight or flight, you don't wanna be in pain. And pain, yeah. Pain is part of life. And you mentioned stuff around, you know, your personal life being encroached on.

2:58:36I've had similar things that freak me out. And I'm like, and so it's funny to see that simultaneously. I know you face this as well. You have that. You have like creepy shit happening in your personal life. And then simultaneously you have people calling you a spook. Right. And it's like you're on both, you're being flanked. and I'm like I'm not a fucking spook and go the fuck away and just let me you know and and uh and yeah and I'm sure you feel sympathetic to this as well there's so much that you put out that they wouldn't even be into this shit if you hadn't put the thing out that's so they're fucking using your lexicon and all the stuff you bring out they're taking that but then they're throwing you in the garbage or whatever.

2:59:21And it's like, fuck off.

2:59:24Jesse Michels:So the thing is, it's not about you. It's not about me. And I've got tunnel vision. So I'm seeing you right now. I don't see nothing else. You got to do that. But I'm going to correct you on one thing. I hope you find it useful later. Which is that you said something about defense and you said something about when you're getting all these attacks from every side and people make you want to quit, then they win if you quit. Now, quit if you find a beautiful girl and you want an island and just go live over there. You don't need to be doing this. I know that about you. You don't need to be doing this.

2:59:57Jesse Michels:I don't need to be doing this. But I can, so I will. So the one thing I want to correct you on is the best defense is to outpace, outmaneuver, and outperform. Never look back, unless you're reflecting, but your mom and dad and brothers and sisters and your friends will tell you if you're being a bitch and an idiot and help you self-reflect, so they're better at it than you anyway, right? So you look forward, you keep going. If you want out at any time, make it your own choice. The best thing you do when you get an attack is don't look back, keep moving forward. Don't think about those attacks.

3:00:35Jesse Michels:Don't let them in, don't penetrate them. They don't know you and they don't own you. You're independent. fucking fight. We need you. I appreciate that. Well, thank you, Jeremy. Love you, buddy. You too, man. I am. Oh, that was great. That was so cool.

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