Inside America’s Most Chilling Alien Abduction [UFOs in Allagash]

34:09That reminds me of when you hear Commander David Fravor from his 2004 Nimitz incident. And he says, you know, we were dispatched to go check out this Tic Tac object. And then the Tic Tac was already at the rendezvous point that he was going to next. It was like they sort of know your intent or some trajectory. or had been there for a while because there was a, there was a witness, a logger who had witnessed this same craft up in that same area that they were logging. Fascinating. Okay. So you guys kind of, you know, note that this is anomalous, but you don't, you try to kind of, you know, keep moving forward.

34:52Yeah. Well, I mean, we're not there to see a light disappear in the night sky. I mean, we're up there for the environment, for the experience, for the just pure pleasure of canoeing and being out in the wilderness. What happens when you get back to camp? Well, that night, the first night we saw it, nothing. I mean, we just turned in, got up the next morning and continued our canoe trip. That was when we tried to get up to Allagash Lake. Do you guys even talk about the first sighting? No, not really at all. Okay. No. I mean, it was like, I got bit by a mosquito type of a thing. So you probably said something when you were looking through your binoculars, right?

35:34Yeah, I said, well, this is a strange light. And when it kind of winked out, I thought, well, that's kind of weird. But I mean, maybe it was a helicopter or maybe it was a balloon or something. And that's just the way it went. Right. Okay. So then the next day after that, we had canoed up, tried to get to Allagash Lake, but found it impossible. We had spent like eight hours trying to go upstream until we got to a point where we said, well, we're not even at the halfway mark. We turned around and it took us about 15 minutes to go back down to where we started. So we set up camp right there on the river that night in this camp location.

36:23The following morning is when we canoed down to the Eagle Lake portage area. So it was a three quarter of a mile portage that we had to carry our canoes and all of our gear. so how we rigged it is that we lashed two poles uh ran perpendicular to the canoe and uh then the four of us would just pick up the ends uh and with the canoe in between us and then walked the canoe over to the other lake went back and retrieved a second canoe and then got out on the water and we were going to camp at Pillsbury Island. That was our goal. It's kind of in the middle of Eagle Lake towards the Southern end of it.

37:11But there was a canoe about, I don't know, a quarter of a mile in front of us. And that is where he be be lined straight to. So we're like, well, we don't want to camp with other people anymore. So we went to our secondary, which was Smithbrook campsite. We set up our camp for the night and then we decided, hey, let's try and catch some fresh fish so we can supplement and have a fish meal or something. So we built a fire because it was getting dark. So we built a fire that we knew would burn for close to three hours and went out on the lake and we had to navigate through standing trees, logs in the water.

37:59And it took us maybe about 25, 30 minutes to work our way through all this obstruction to get to the site that we were fishing at, which was maybe about 500 yards from our campsite. Yeah, we were all in one canoe. Charlie was at one end of the canoe. The other guy was at the other end. Jack and I were in the middle. So all we had was paddles and fishing poles and that was it. You know, and a flashlight. So I'm setting up in the front of the canoe and, you know, we're having no luck at all fishing when the other guy goes, what the F as that. As you know, we have a new starship. Of course, we have a healthcare center on board.

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40:05What the F is that? So we all sort of like turn and look toward the back of the canoe. And I see this aspirin tablet sized white circle. And I'm thinking, that is the frickin moon, you moron. But then I noticed that it was moving. And it was moving faster than moon moves. It's moving at about like this speed right here. and it's hundreds of yards away from us. And so we just sat there bewildered looking at this thing and then it kind of like makes a left turn and then it starts coming straight toward us. Totally silent. Yeah. And so we're watching it and watching it and then we notice as it gets closer, the tops of the trees are illuminated And this thing's only about 15 feet above the tops of the trees, just coming straight toward us.

41:06And when it was about less than 100 yards away from us, directly across, I thought, I wonder what the hell it'll do if I flash an SOS at it. So I had one of those square battery flashlights with the handle and the push button. I put my hand over the lens, turned the light on, and then I, three short, three long, three short, and then this thing stopped. I mean, it just, no sound whatsoever, just stopped moving. and all of a sudden this big cone of light, blue light, like a neon blue, but it looked like a giant glass straw. You know, it looked like it was open, a void in the center of it or something.

41:58And this light starts from the bottom of the sphere coming out across the lake toward the canoe. And that was when I realized the sphere was coming with it at the same time. This thing was big. It was as big as a two-story house. Oh, yeah. I mean, it was like huge. Wow. And how far away? Is it like under 100 yards from you? When I flashed a flashlight, but when I dropped the flashlight, it was about 75 yards from us in closing. Wow. And so do you think it reacted to this SOS flashlight? Yeah. Immediately. And it came closer? Yeah, and all I could hear behind me were Jack and Jim screaming, paddle, Charlie, paddle And as I said, if I could have ran across the water like a Jesus Christ lizard, I would have been doing that What emotions are going through you guys at this point?

42:54Well, I was terrified Self-survival Self-survival, it was like weird, I do not want to deal with this out here I don't know what this is, but I know as much as I really want to know at the moment because it was, you know, it was big. It was huge. And you're like, uh, oh, that's not a helicopter because it was absolutely silent. And up there, there's no background noise. I mean, you can hear a loon a quarter of a mile away. And this thing didn't make any noise at all. And it had this weird kind of life to it. Like it was roiling. The surface of the lighting. The surface of this thing was like roiling.

43:34It was alive. It was like it was some sort of plasma. Like a plasma pressure cooker. Yeah, yeah. Something going on inside. Yep. Well, you know, one of the things that impressed me the most that I recall about it was you've seen halos around the moon, right? Sure. This thing had a halo around it as well. as it approached us. You could see the definition of this halo and the sphere itself was in constant motion. Yeah, and I remembered, you know, we were like, paddle. Well, the other guy with us, he was just like catatonic. He just sat in the - With the paddle across his legs. With the paddle across his legs and just stared out.

44:24And we're like, paddle, paddle, paddle. and he's like sort of help us a little here so charlie what's his name by the way this other guy who's chuck chuck yeah and um it's the reason i go by charlie so there's no confusion and uh so we're like chuck paddle and he just did sat there staring out into nothing and so it seemed like only a few moments from the time we started paddling to the time that jack and jim and i were standing on the beach. We weren't in the canoe. We're standing in front of the canoe on the sand of the beach. Yeah. And this sphere had followed us all the way across the lake.

45:05Didn't Chuck also, prior to this, feel like you guys were being watched? He had some ominous. That's what he said, yeah. That's what he said. Yeah. I mean, the last thing I remembered before we were suddenly at the shore, at the camp, was looking back to see where this thing was And I thought, well, it's still like, you know, 70 yards away, except it was like, instead of being back here, it was like right there. It was right behind us. And I was like, oh, Christ, we are not going to make it back. And then that's the last thing I remembered until we stopped at our canoe. Campsite. Went up on the shore of the campsite.

45:46So there's a little blackout period. Propel Fitness Water with Gatorade electrolytes, zero sugar and vitamins. Propel hydrates better than water to help you get the most out of your workout and get back to your best self. What propels you? Propel with Gatorade electrolytes. Little sort of missing time. Well, yeah, but I mean. In your memory, at least, where. Well, I mean, but the thing about it is, is in total context, we weren't aware of anything like this. At the time. At the time. But now recalling it, you remember this bright plasma-like object 75 yards away. Oh, no, no. We remember the whole plasma incident like it just happened last night.

46:30And then you remember that, and then it just sort of flashes directly to like you're going up onto shore to the campsite. There's nothing in between that in your memory. No, no. No, as a matter of fact, I had a very vivid memory of my eyes focused on that campfire. And that was all that I was, that was my goal. My objective was to reach that site because that was the only indicator of where a campsite was without that campfire. You know, the shoreline is identical at night. It's dark. When you're going onto shore and the campfire is in sight, do you guys feel differently physically than before you blacked out a little bit?

47:18Well, this was the kicker when we got to shore. The three of us were standing in the sand. I reached down in the canoe and I picked up the flashlight again and I gave it another SOS. But this time, all it did was it just went away from us to the opposite side of the lake. once it got to the exact opposite side of the lake it ascended up and away at a 45 degree angle yeah i remembered when we got onto the shore turning around to see where it was and i remember it hovering right over the water and this cone of light was coming down onto straight down under it on the water really like it was there was a beam like it was sitting on a beam beam of light.

48:06And it was close. I remember thinking if I had a stone, I could hit this with a rock. And it was only about 40 feet above the surface of the water. And the surface of the water was like a mirror. It was like glass. Glass at night. And then it did that same winking out. I remember looking at this. Well, that was when it went up in the sky. And then it just went, and then it. And when you could see it sort of close up, could you make out how big it was and the, and the shape, it was circular. It was still spherical. It was still spherical. And it was still like maybe two and a half story house. Give a sense of the diameter.

48:46Yeah. Triple decker. 80 feet in diameter. 80 feet in diameter. Yeah. Easy. And was it always a kind of white light or did it change colors? Kind of a whitish yellow. What? The best example I could give you to envision what we saw would be go into a dark room with a 25 watt light bulb. Look at the light or turn the light bulb on, look at it, turn it off and then close your eyes. The after image that you have would be about as close to what we saw as I can think of, for example. Fascinating. So you guys are going on the shore and you flash the SOS again and the thing kind of, you know, zooms off.

49:32Goes across the lake and begins to ascend up and away from us. Yeah, when it went, it flew weird. I remember it reminded me of like when you have a Frisbee and you're tossing a Frisbee back and forth. And sometimes the Frisbee will go at a certain— And then skips up and then keeps going and then it skips up again. That's how this thing, it was like it was going up a stairway What happens when you get back to camp? Well, this is while we're in camp watching this thing going up Okay For some reason, I felt that this thing was about to take off at a high rate of speed So I took the flashlight, which I was still holding in my hand once I had signaled it the second time And I looked at the sweep hand on my watch, noting to where the sweep hand was for the second hand then i looked back up at this thing and then it shot off into the night sky i so i didn't observe it skipping i just meant that probably happened when i was looking at my wristwatch but when that thing took off within eight seconds of the time i spotted the sweet band till the time the thing was a pinpoint of light in a night sky.

50:52Eight seconds had elapsed. And I turned and I looked at the campfire. The campfire had flames about one inch high. The campfire had completely burned out. But I didn't say, oh my God, what happened to the fire? I mean, because fires burn out. You expect that. But I was puzzled by the fact that the fire was exhausted so i asked everybody should i throw some wood on the fire and build it up and they're like fuck the fire man i'm exhausted i'm going and i all of a sudden just felt exhausted so it was like that adrenaline that puts you into the afterburner rocket across the lake to get back to your shoreline safety, that adrenaline is now dissipated and exhaustion hits you.

51:48That's the way it felt like. But you somehow intuited that this thing was going to shoot off, that you felt like you had a sort of premonition. I did, but I didn't know why at that time. It took us going through hypnotic regression to learn the answer to that. and the fire the fire is significant too right yeah yeah extremely so so so explain that well the fact that we had only been out on the water less than 30 minutes when we encountered this thing so it should have taken us about 20 minutes to get back to shore but it seemed like only took a few moments for us to get back to shore. And when we got back to shore, the fire was extinguished.

52:40So that was a three hour period of time that is that missing time that everybody talks about. And the fire initially was set, you know, it was an intense fire. It was blazing. Yeah. It acted like a lighthouse. Because, I mean, you have to have a point of reference to get back to if you're going to be out on the water at night because as he had said before you know you can feel the heat from your hand but you can't see your hand so it was this was a bonfire explicitly for visibility at far distances correct yeah it's going to be big yeah yeah and so it's not so big that it would start a force well i mean if it would have been windy that would have been a different thing but it wasn't windy at all that night concern about it I mean, it's called a long burning fire or sometimes an upside down fire.

53:32You build it to last, to burn a long time rather than quickly. And the fact that this was basically out by the time that you guys got there or, you know, all but out shows you that maybe there was some missing time involved. Well, we didn't think about it. That was so weird. No, because fires burn out. This is a pattern that you notice in retrospect after piecing everything together. Yeah. In fact, we hadn't even, you know, made that connection. It was Ray Fowler that made the connection. He said, this is missing time where you knew you were paddling toward a fire, a fire that you were looking at.

54:09But yet when you got there, the fire was out. that's also a common trope with alien abductions. You have, you know, Travis Walton coming back with a fully grown beard. Yeah. Uh, you know, actually it was one year before you guys, right? It was 75, uh, nine months, nine months before us. Yeah. And I had never heard of Travis at that time. Oh yeah. We didn't know about anybody back then. We didn't know about any of this shit. We were novices. It was all new. Yeah. Which is one of the reasons we were so intent, as I said to James, to share this knowledge with the world. I mean, you know, hey, something comes down into my neighborhood and kicks my butt and I can't do nothing about it.

54:56I want people to know. Did you guys report it to the rangers? Every next day was when the ranger came to collect our trash. We said, hey, you know, did anybody see anything weird last night? And he's like, what do you mean? They have that Maine accent, you know? So we told him what we saw, and he was like— He kind of gave us this weird look. Yeah, he said, well, I don't know what two guys were smoking last night. No, he didn't say that. If I were you, I'd stop, you know? And we were like, no, this is something that we really saw. oh, this thing was like, how could somebody else not see it? And in fact, we asked other people when we passed other people on the lake system.

55:38We said, hey, did you see anything weird, you know, last night or a couple nights ago? They'd say, no, we were all in bed by, you know, sundown. And you guys had six more days, right, on the trip? No, no, we had like about two more weeks. You guys had two more weeks on this trip. So how much does this change the dynamic between you guys? Are you guys talking about this a lot? Well, that night we didn't talk about it one word. We just more or less all drifted off. Forget about the fire, everybody said. So we all drifted off, climbed in our sleeping bags and, you know, closed our eyes. And then the next morning as we're breaking camp and eating, the only thing we could talk about was this thing.

56:24What the hell was it? It happened to me in the woods. I was hiking solo. New year, no phone, no gear. I was just trying to find myself. That's when I saw it. Something glowing, silent, descending through the trees. A UFO. And stepping out from it wasn't an alien or an android. It was me. But better. Same face. Same great hair. But something was different. This guy had perfect posture. he was wearing the perfect jean. And they start at just$79, six fits, sizes for every thigh on this timeline and beyond. Now, 2026 me wears the perfect jeans. They don't crush my thighs or my dreams. They're soft but dangerous.

57:14For a limited time, our listeners get 15 % off their first order plus free shipping at theperfectgene.nyc or just Google the Perfect Gene and use code JESSE15 for 15 % off. That's 15 % off for new customers at theperfectgene.nyc with promo code JESSE15. After you purchase, they'll ask you where you heard about them. Please support our show and tell them we sent you. Get your khakis and get the Perfect Gene. What the hell was it? And we immediately said, well, I had to be a UFO Because I said, it's nothing military Because I'm familiar with what we have militarily I've been on enough Hueys to know it wasn't no damn helicopter Well, it didn't make any noise, it was totally silent And as it flew off, it had to be going faster than the speed of sound It just had to be, because that's how quickly it accelerated Speed of sound?

58:13Accelerated, yeah No sonic boom Faster than Mach 1, but no boom No boom, totally It almost feels like it's gliding through space-time or something. Yeah, I don't know how, you know. Breaking Newton's third law or something. I don't know how it does that, but there was no sonic boom. And that thing took off, like Charlie said, all you saw was this streak behind it. How much are you guys talking about it for the next couple of weeks? Are you talking about it the next day? Oh, we talked about it for like the frickin' next year. Everybody that we knew. Yeah. Literally, everybody that we knew. And a lot of people that we didn't know, we shared this experience of seeing this thing and being chased by it.

58:53By week two, are you guys starting to speculate about UFOs, non-human intelligence, aliens? No, I mean, we just said it was a UFO because it didn't move like anything I'd ever seen or any of us were ever familiar with, like shooting off into the night sky the way it did. And we didn't have any sense of contact with any beings or anything like that. It was just this weird craft that we saw. saw us and chased us across the lake, scared the crap out of us. And, and then we were off and gone. But to, to get back to me shining the flashlight, to put that in a little bit of context, remember I said, I used to work on nuclear submarines and I worked with reactor system.

59:46submarines operate with a bubble of air inside the, between the outer hull and the inner hull. They have a bladder, like fish have a bladder, and you fill it full of air to maintain a certain depth. Well, apparently when I was on board this craft, inquired about their, power system, you know, because I was curious about it. And it was relayed to me that it works like the submarine working with a bubble of air, they can match gravity fields. So if you set it for, you know, like minus X, that might be like 80 ,000 feet up in the sky and set it for minus one and you're 12 inches above the water and they can move between the in fact uh uh the uh encounters that the aircraft carriers had in california in uh 2004 they had a craft at 80 i think it was 81 000 feet it was like over 15 miles straight up in the air and they sent plains up to that area.

1:01:11And when they could just start seeing it on their instruments, it dropped down to 24 inches above the water surface in under one second. I think it was, it was right above the water and it moved to 30 ,000 feet and seven eighths of a second. And then, yes, it, then it zoomed up to over 80 ,000. So yeah, I mean, that's another thing that kind of disturbs you when you're reading information. You get a lot of conflicting information. Well, I think you're actually right because, well, some of them are radar. I think the radar thing was more similar to what you said and then I think maybe visually.

1:01:54Visual, yeah. But it's like I've heard podcasts on the Allagash many, many times. They're always getting their facts wrong. Yeah, and they're mixing this person up with that person. Well, even Ray did that in his book. He kept getting Jack and I mixed up. So you get back, you see your families. What do you say to them, and how do they react? Well, I mean, half of my family believed me, and the other half thought I was squirrel bait. You know what squirrel bait is, don't you? No, what's squirrel bait? Nuts. That's funny. There you go. So, but over the last 50 years and especially most, especially over the last, uh, 15 years, uh, there's so much more information coming forward.

1:02:46so many more reliable, credible people were coming forward. Like the prime minister from Canada, Paul Hellyer, came forward describing his UFOs, the information he had, the supreme... Air Force commander of the Belgian military decades ago, way before we were even aware of Ray Fowler, came forward and said these things were real. Gordon Cooper? Well, Gordon Cooper, who was one of the Mercury 7 astronauts, Jim and I gave a presentation in Portsmouth, Maine in 1995, was it? It's either five or six. 96, I think it was, yeah. And Gordon Cooper was one of the speakers as well. We spent basically the weekend with Gordon Cooper.

1:03:58He shared with us that in 1957 that he was on the base and they had a craft land, physically land on the base. So he was in a Jeep with three photographers, a cinematographer with a 16 millimeter movie camera and he was shooting film. 35 millimeter photographer was shooting film and a four by five press camera photographer. And he said when they drove straight out, there was this, uh, sort of like, uh, kind of like a tic-tac shape thing that was on the ground on tripod. and when they approached the legs like retracted back into it and then it just went straight up in the air when they were within about three or four hundred yards it just went vertically straight up and i said well what did the films look like gordon said never saw them as soon as we got back they were all confiscated.

1:05:09And this saucer flew right over him and put down three little gear and landed out on the dry lake bed. And they went out to, picked up their cameras and moved on out toward him filming. And he lifted off, put the gear back in the well and climbed out at a very high rate of speed and disappeared. That is so nuts. Yeah, well, he, I think, spent more time in space than anybody prior to him in the Mercury. Oh, yeah. Yeah, he was one of the Mercury 7. Yeah. Fascinating. Did he say anything else to you? Well, about seeing when they were orbiting, he saw, well, not they, each astronaut orbited by themselves.

1:05:56And, you know, because they only had seven astronauts, they only had seven capsules. So, uh, Cooper said that he had witnessed and I guess he was on the radio back with the ground control. And then they like, they often do switch to another radio frequency to get off of the public radio frequencies. um who the hell did we meet some guy from australia that um had been recording and when they switched to a different channel he was able to switch and because he knew where that channel was and he switched over to that channel and he uh recorded uh some uh of the di of the interchange going back and forth it's it's amazing how much information is out there and has been out there but it was just in tighter circles the circles are expanding now yeah i think That's right.

1:07:02And Gordon Cooper is saying that he literally experienced the UFO while he was orbiting Earth. Yeah. As an astronaut. Yeah. In the Mercury missions. Right. That's amazing. Propel Fitness Water with Gatorade electrolytes, zero sugar and vitamins. Propel hydrates better than water to help you get the most out of your workout and get back to your best self. What propels you? Propel with Gatorade electrolytes. And he had seen that one before the Mercury program, because the Mercury program didn't start until, I think, like 59. 58, yeah. 58, 59. And, uh, so by 1969, when we landed on the moon, I was stationed over in Europe.

1:07:50Uh, I remember that night incredibly well because all the bars, you know, it was nighttime for us over there. All the bars were open and they all had these tiny little black and white TVs that were all snowy and we're watching the astronauts on the moon. So we all grab our beers or whatever we were drinking. And we went out in the streets, thousands of us Americans were all toasting the guys on the moon with our beers. Now the moon belongs to us because we got our flag there. That's funny. So, so, but did he just describe this UFO that he saw at all while he was orbiting earth with the other astronauts or uh just that it had come uh in proximity with him and i think he said it was green if i'm not mistaken but i don't know i might be confusing that with other other astronauts that had had uh encounters so you guys still have some missing puzzle pieces with your own experience for a decade plus right for 12 or so years yeah we never really started looking at it until the late 80s.

1:09:07So what exactly kind of spurred... Catalyst? What was the catalyst to these together? Jim and Jack, both at the same time, in two different states, Jim lived in Massachusetts, Jack in Vermont with his wife, they both started experiencing these identical nightmares. Well, similar. Similar. Yeah, I don't know if they were identical. Well, for lack of a better word, they were identical in as much as they had the same four people, the two twins, me and the other guy. Yeah. And so back to the entanglement thing, you guys are experiencing the same things at the same time. But even then we didn't know what was going on.

1:09:49I remember he used to say, man, I had like a really strange dream last night where there were like these things, these like humanoid things. And I was like, yeah, Jack, come on. It's a nightmare. You know, I have them too. Yeah. I have the same kind of dreams. It's just a nightmare. Don't worry about it. And it was you, Charlie, Jack, and Chuck in the dream, just like it was you four at Allagash. Exactly. Yeah. Well, that was the only time that we had ever done anything together like that. I mean. And so the dream is just you guys are sitting there and what happens? Like being in a doctor's office.

1:10:29Strange things are being done to you. With no explanation. So are you guys on a craft? Well, we... Somewhere. After the hypnotic regression, we discovered that, yeah, we were on this craft, apparently. So you're having dreams that are sort of adjacent to or kind of, you know, point to something else having occurred. And then that catalyzes this desire to get a hypnotic regression. Jim had had an injury and he developed epilepsy, temporal epilepsy, and he was having a lot of seizure activity. So he was at the Beth Israel Hospital being followed for that. And they were going to do a sleep deprivation study on him.

1:11:23And he had all these wires glued to his head. and they said, while you're waiting around, do you want to read a book or anything? And he said, yeah, yeah. So they brought in a tray of books and... And one of them was Whitney Streber's Communion. And when I saw the face on the cover, I flipped out. I was like, why are you giving me this book to read? I don't want to read this. And for some reason, I didn't really know why. It was just like this face, just. Negative reactions. Had this extreme negative reaction. And I didn't want to have anything to do with it. And I made a big scene. And then a few minutes later, one of the neurologists came in and said, Jim, what just came down here?

1:12:12And I was like, I don't want to talk about this. And he was like, well, it's kind of weird, don't you think? And I was like, I don't care what you call it. you know it's like i don't know i just don't like this i don't want to look at this book anymore it was like a visceral allergic reaction more like a visceral reaction to it and um i got really upset and then you know this is oh by the way common for people experiencers to see the cover specifically of communion whitley streber's book and a lot of stuff bubbles back up comes up comes And sometimes it's this, and then other times it's like, whoa, that looks familiar.

1:12:54And so he left, and after the test was done, the EEG, he came in. He said, you know, I'm going to ask you a kind of personal question. And I said, fine. What do you want to ask? He said, have you ever seen a UFO? And I remembered like looking at him like, what the heck is going on here? And I said, well, yeah, as a matter of fact, I have. Yeah. And he said, oh, you want to talk about it? And I said, um, not really, you know, I really want to kind of concentrate on the seizures. I'm having these problems with seizures. I think that's a little bit more important than talking about UFOs. And he said, well, you know, I know this guy, one of my professional people I know who turned out to be John Mack.

1:13:50No way. Yeah. Yeah. Who's this neurologist? He's, what was his name? Jonathan Silverman, I think it was. And was he affiliated with? He was affiliated with Beth Israel. Yeah, in Harvard Medical School. Yeah. Did you sense anything nefarious about him or you felt like he was an honest actor? No, I thought he was an honest actor. And so I said, well, yeah, you know, I have had a UFO experience. And I was telling him about these nightmares that I was having, thinking they were seizure activity. and he said, you know, Jim, I think you really need to talk to somebody like John Mack or somebody who deals with people who have seen UFOs.

1:14:40I could tell he was trying to be gentle about walking around this topic so I wouldn't flip out again because I was not happy. And so I said, you know, I really want to just concentrate on the seizures. You know, let's concentrate on the seizures. So I tried to avoid it for a while. And then a few days later, he came into my room and said, look, you know, this guy named Ray Fowler, Raymond Fowler, he's a UFO investigator. and he's going to be at this conference, which was pretty close to where Carol and I live now. It was a library. The Marriott Hotel. There was a Marriott Hotel near us, and he said he's going to be speaking at this, or he's going to have a book stand or something like that at this thing, and I want you to go and talk to him.

1:15:32And I was like, I don't want to talk to him. And he said, look, I really want you to do this. so he talked me into doing it and that's how i met ray fowler and i remembered when i met him he was selling some his books and he said oh you're the yeah your doctor talk called me and and so i'm expecting you and i said you know and he goes uh well why don't you just start at the beginning and tell me about this ufo that you saw so i told him about it and at first i thought he was bored It was like, oh yeah, I've heard this a million times. And then I said, my Charlie and myself and my identical twin.

1:16:18And then he went, what did you just say? And I said, Charlie and I and this other guy and my identical twin. He said, oh, you have an identical twin? And I said, yes. And then he said, okay, I want you to start all over again. And then I could tell he was giving me his attention. Why was that somehow? I don't know. control and you got a base population and a control population if you're going to do any type of medical experimentation. So that's interesting. You have two identical twins. Yeah. That boat. That's interesting. I also think from an investigatory perspective, if he's speaking to you first, he can get your whole testimony, then he can isolate your brother and then get the same testimony and kind of, you know, compare and contrast.

1:17:05And so it's probably from his vantage point, you know, uh, the potential for high confidence is really there, which is exciting. And, and that's exactly what he did with the regression sessions. You know, we filed a report. That was the first thing we did. And then he said, you know, would you like to do hypnotic regression? Have you ever done, you ever been hypnotized? I said, no, I'm not even sure I can be hypnotized. I mean, isn't that kind of a controlled show or Or something. Some kind of weird thing, you know, that people believe in, but it's not really true. It's not science. You know, it's not science.

1:17:41Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's not accepted in a court of law. Yeah. So, I mean, how could it be legitimate? And he's like, no, it's just kind of this like super relaxed state. Uh-huh. You know, it's no big deal. So, I said, yeah, sure, we'll do it. So, we all, four of us, agreed to undergo - Regression. Multiple regression sessions. And then we promised, we agreed that we would not talk about them between us. We would not report anything we remembered from these sessions. So no collusion. No collusion. Totally isolated. Yep. And what comes out of the regression session? Pretty similar stories. Yeah. Something that I didn't think had happened at all, I thought was, Christ, there's nothing to this story.

1:18:26We're out fishing. This weird light came up on top of us. We paddled away. We shined a flashlight at it. It flew away. That's the whole story. The whole end. Nothing to it. So after being hypnotized, then I was totally quiet with myself even. I didn't even talk to myself. For like the next four hours, I'm just trying to access, absorb, and accept what I had just re-encountered that I didn't know that I had encountered to begin with. why the fire had burned out, why I knew that this thing was going to go at lightning speed because of its power source works off of gravitational fields when it's within the limits of a planet that has gravitational fields.

1:19:29Describe in detail what transpired based on your regressions between you seeing this plasma ball that's glowing 75 yards away and then you guys kind of walking onto shore? Well, first thing I remembered in my regression was looking at my toes and thinking, well, that's odd. What the hell happened to my socks? And then I'm thinking, where the hell are my shoes? where the hell are my clothes? And the fast thinker that I am, then it's like, where the hell am I? And I'm like getting cold and freaked out. And I'm like looking around and just beyond my toes, I can see Jack and Jim and this other guy setting on this bench, like they're waiting for a damn bus.

1:20:26And in my mind, I'm screaming. I couldn't articulate, but I'm like screaming, get off your asses get over here help me get me loose you know what's going on and at that time i was probably about a first degree black belt in martial arts shodokan karate goshen jitsu ishiro pukalan and aikido so i studied mostly aikido for many years but at any rate i could take care of myself in a fight you know i i'd had people attack me with knives and weapons and i defended myself successfully but here i am butt naked and i'm as helpless as an infant i i just it was rough for me to kind of cope with that for a while and then I'm struggling to get up and I had that sensation of movement.

1:21:36I look up and I see this face bending down to look into my eyes. So I dropped my head, didn't move his way as quickly as I could. And I probably only moved my head like another three or four inches till I was making contact with the surface I was laying on and I couldn't go back words any further so you were laying horizontally on a table yeah on what did the table feel like uh kind of like a chilly like this room is chilly yeah it felt chilly uh very sterile uh very much like uh an emergency room setting in a way and then uh i recall this panel coming down from somewhere above my head and it was over my chest and it basically covered my entire torso and then this blue light came straight down out of it and it had like definite dimensional quality to it the light did i mean it isn't like like take your flashlight or anything and you shine it and the light spreads and travels this was focused it was localized into one shape and that was emitted straight down onto my torso and there were like two two beings to my left, uh, doing whatever to this panel.

1:23:14I had this one at my head and another at my feet. And they began a clinical examination of me for lack of a, uh, another term at all. What did the beings look like? Like, what did the face look like when you're lifting your head up and you see this other head above yours. Leaning down? Yeah. Well, I got artwork of it in the computer, and it's in the book as well. Sort of like a bulbous head with large eyes, no nose like us, and no mouth like us. It was sort of like a slight slit area in the chin. No ears like we have protruding. They were like just a lump and not like a lump or a blob or anything, but like a slight bump out from the skull.

1:24:15Are you freaking out? Freaking out? I'm beyond freaking freaked out. I mean, here I was, an individual. I defended myself against seven armed kids in Boston a number of years ago. I had seven kids come at me with weapons. I had no fear of them whatsoever. I just told them they'd made an error in judgment. I just had to let them know that they had truly made one. With your words and with your moves? Well, yeah, I let them know a thing or two. There you go. But at any rate, I couldn't do diddly to protect myself or do anything. So, I mean, at that moment on that craft, but I was told not to resist, not to fight.

1:25:14I wasn't in any danger. Just comply and everything will be all right. And I'm there like, oh, I can do that. Were you told telepathically? Yeah. When I was, well, you've had the experience of being on a roller coaster when it drops and your stomach stays up around your shoulders. Sure. I had a physical sensation like that, but it wasn't my stomach. It was like my mind. When I looked into these eyes, it was like two magnets grabbing one another instantly. And I mean, it was like, I understand what you're asking of me. I believe you. Instantaneous comprehension of their intention. Absolutely. Interesting.

1:26:07Absolutely. And so I'm like, well, okay, well, I'm not going to get hurt. I'm going to get released. All right. Were they gray in color? Yes. Yeah. yeah they're a grayish in color do you remember how tall uh under five feet uh spindly uh-huh uh their hands had four digits uh-huh uh not five or three as are portrayed in a lot of our science fiction films uh their hands had four digits that hang straight down and the center of the hand had like an articulation ability so they would have four opposable digits where we only have one our thumb uh these these beings had four opposable digits and that was the way all their technology was geared too toward their hands uh just like our world is designed because of our hands how our hands work to use tools.

1:27:17Propel Fitness Water with Gatorade electrolytes, zero sugar, and vitamins. Propel hydrates better than water to help you get the most out of your workout and get back to your best self. What propels you? Propel with Gatorade electrolytes. But they had like a clothing on that was, I didn't, for lack of a better word, it's like spandex type of appearance where it like tightly conformed to their body. But they also, one of them also had this wand, like a magic wand that was maybe about this long or so. Jim can tell you more about that because of something that he attempted to do. I'll go back to the canoe.

1:28:12When we were paddling back towards the beach, the campsite, the last thing I had remembered consciously was looking up and seeing this craft right behind us. The next thing I remembered was going up to the canoe. But under hypnotic regression, I remembered it being right over on, like literally on top of us. And this beam came down around the canoe. And it was a hollow. Like Charlie said earlier, it was like a tube or hose where the sheath of the hose is made out of light. And it was moving. Like when you see dust moats through sunlight, you know, it's moving. That had this quality to it. But the inside was dark.

1:29:01And I remembered looking up, straight up into the top of this tube, and it was dark in there, but there was something moving. I could tell there was still something moving up there. And I remember thinking, oh, shit, this is bad. And then the next thing I remembered was being in a room. Chuck, Rack, and Charlie were sitting on this bench And I think I remembered I was standing near it And Jack was out in front of me With these beans And then one of them had this wand That had a thin wand with a bulb on the end of it Like the end of your finger And he was doing he was pointing it at jack and they were doing they were like taking his wrist and rotating his wrists and his arm to see like how it rotated i thought at first they were going to hurt him because they were like trying to twist and turn it all these different ways and i was like oh cripes man they're going to break his arm and uh and then they had lifted his head back and they were like examining his throat and they had another thing that looked like it was a little flashlight, like a pencil light flashlight that they were looking in his eyes with.

1:30:32And, um, and then they, I remembered them, uh, walking him away into this other area. There was like a hallway or something. And they took them in through there and then they came for me. And they were doing the same thing to me. And then when they went to walk me through this area, I didn't want to go because I was terrified. I thought, that's it. We're going to get dissected. This is not going well at all. And I didn't get any messages saying, just relax or we're not going to hurt you. I didn't get anything like that. And I didn't want to go through this doorway or into this other area. And one of them that had this wand took it and they jammed it in my rib, in between my ribs, you know.

1:31:26And I was like, then I got, I didn't hear anything. It wasn't like a verbal message, but I just had this understanding that if I didn't cooperate, I was going to be in trouble. That I had to cooperate. Was there any sort of surgical implantation of anything or removal of anything? Well, I remembered them taking sperm sample. And then at one point I remembered, this was over two sessions. The first session, the first hypnotic session, I remembered their bodies, but I couldn't get their faces. For some reason, I just could not see their faces, or I didn't want to see their faces. And then in the second session, their faces finally came through, and I remember screaming, they're bugs.

1:32:21They look like bugs. They had this kind of, it looked like a shape of an ant. You know, they had a bulbous top head and had these big eyes that were more laterally situated rather than in the front. No nose, slit for a mouth. And I couldn't tell if it was the actual head or whether there was a mask there of some sort. And I thought they reminded me of like an ant head or an insect head. Are there any details from each of your individual isolated regressions where you were kind of separated from each other? Any details that were inconsistent between your accounts or did they all line up? Some small details were different.

1:33:09Like I remembered the device that they used to get the store, the semen. I remembered it being more like a tubular shape with a round bottom. And there was a neck, a smaller flange on the neck. um but like when they took the semen from me i was like i was so terrified you know my johnson was like three inches inside of me you know it was like you are you are not getting there and so then i had this i got this impression that um things are gonna you better change your ways or You know, so I actually like forced myself to get an erection. And then they brought out this thing for me to, you know, ejaculate in.

1:34:05Whereas Jack remembered more of a conical shape device with a wand coming, like a spike coming out of it or a needle coming out of it that they actually inserted into his penis to get the sample. so that was different between his recollection and my recollection or it could have been different instrumentation or whatever yeah it could have just been because of the way i mean i remembered they let me sit up to do it i remember saying i can't do this laying down i got you know let me sit up and then i i was able to function and um and then uh there was another time i don't know if they did the same thing to Jack or not.

1:34:48I can't remember. But at one point I remembered laying on a table and there were two beans at my shoulders behind me and two at my feet and two next on either side. And I remembered thinking, I mean, I was terrified and I didn't trust these things. And so I, at one point, I'm almost ashamed to say, I thought, you know, maybe if I kill one, I can create a distraction and get out of here. I can escape. And as soon as I had that thought, because I had these really like thin pencil-like necks, these like thin necks, I thought, oh, I could get my hand around there and just, and as soon as I had that thought, they, the ones who were near my shoulders and on the side they moved away so fast it was like a blur and then um one of the ones that were at my feet just it was weird he kind of like reached up in the air with his arm they had these long long thin articulated arms and when he came down he had this thing in his hand that looked like a flattened hockey it was like a hockey puck but it wasn't like perfectly round it was more like an oval shape and it had rounded edges instead of the sharp edges a hockey puck has but it was like the size of a hockey puck maybe a little smaller and they put one on on the outside of each one of my shins and then i couldn't move my legs like no matter how hard i tried i couldn't move my legs did you ask them any questions about who they were and where they were from or no i didn't yeah didn't even get a damn t-shirt i mean no souvenirs you know like i said earlier it was like i got the clear impression that these whatever they were they were following a procedure yeah it was you know step one step two step three step four i don't remember them putting me in any machines jack they got a lot more out of jack than they did me because i was like so terrified all the time that ray thought i was going to have a seizure so they had to keep bringing me out of the hypnosis so i wouldn't have a seizure because i would be like freaking out during these sessions.

1:37:15But it was almost like the beings were in some sort of automated assembly line and they were following. In a sense. In a sense, yeah. They weren't totally automated. Just a footnote about what Jim had just mentioned about these discs being placed on his ankles. On his legs for several years thereafter, I don't know if it's that way now, hair didn't grow there. It was like a bald patch on its legs. Whoa, really? Both shins. And his identical twin brother, Jack, had tumors growing in the exact spots on his legs. What? Tumors? Tumors. Benign or? We never knew because the tumors were removed at the teaching hospital where they removed them in Vermont.

1:38:02their pathology department was unable to ascertain what type of biological they were looking at. So they sent it to the Air Force Institute of Pathology down around Washington, D.C. It was signed for by a major or no, by a colonel, a doctor who was a rank of a colonel because they have one of the best pathology science labs in the world. Got it. Yeah, when they removed this thing on its shin, it looked like a piece of chewed bubble gum, pink in color, hard. And they said in the report that it resembled a type of growth that is common when you have bone marrow taken out of a bone. You get this kind of tissue that grows on the wound.

1:39:02That's what they said. They didn't know what it was, but that was the closest thing that they could describe it as. Whoa. Did any of you guys end up with any implants, anything inside of your body? I don't know. I don't think so. I used to have a head of hair. does that come no uh oh okay i uh i have like a small punch biopsy scar up near my scrotum that i had never known before if you were to take like an old uh pencil the ones that had the brass barrel and the rubber eraser in them, pull the eraser out and stab it into something to take a plug out. That's the size diameter and very shallow, maybe about not quite an eighth of an inch deep right here on the inside of my leg.

1:40:05You described the beings as clinical? Very clinical, yeah. We were like the chimps and they were like Jane Goodall. So they were about their business. Yeah. Right. The best analogy I can come up with is like when scientists go to the, you know, Arctic and they see a polar bear and they dart him. And then while he's anesthetized, they measure his teeth and look at his, you know. What's that? What's a polar bear got to say about what happened to it? I remembered when under the hypnosis, I like the way I saw things was weird. It was like I had tunnel vision. I could see clearly you. But out here, everything was fuzzy and unclear.

1:40:52Did all of the hypnotic regressions line up? Because all four of you did hypnotic regressions. Yeah. Did all of them. Over a period of about almost a year. Uh-huh. Do you have the audio? Ray certainly has. I don't. Yeah. Would I be able to listen to that? Some of the hypnotic regressions are word for word in his book. Would I be able to listen to the audio? You'd have to get Ray if he even still has that stuff. Okay. But if you do go to the library or get a copy of his book, The Allagash Abductions, it has direct quotes from the regression. Okay. Questions as well as our responses. And their analysis.

1:41:38And their analysis of them as well. It's the best book on the case. Did John Mack oversee any, or did John Mack review any of the hypnotic regression audio or any of the material there? I don't know what John did. I'm sure he must have over the years because we've known John for many years, over 20 years. Yeah, over 25 before he died. Um, after we had, after Ray had gotten finished with his investigation, I was, um, he said, cause during the, during the investigation, he said, I don't want you to read any books. I don't want you to talk about it to one another or really anybody else because I don't want to like pollute.

1:42:21Yeah. Well, hopefully now he would, you know, after having written his book, hopefully the audio, the raw source material he would sort of open source because well if anybody you know if anybody should uh be in possession of it it should be you guys to be honest i mean we could have purchased the complete manuscript i mean and that includes all of the hypnotic regressions transcribed verbatim word for word uh but you know that thing was like literally yeah they're Almost a foot thick of paper. Now we have a little thing called AI and you run it, you run it through and you just say, you know, describe, you know, these accounts and give us a summary and then you can query it.

1:43:07And so I think, I think it'd be really cool to, to get these things kind of digitized and, you know, and then run it through the AI and you'd be able to ask it questions and stuff. Sounds like you found a project for yourself. Oh, I'm ready. Let's do it. Yeah. Yeah. I'll try to get in touch with Ray and that'd be cool. Um, fascinating. What, what was John Mack like? Uh, I, uh, am a long time, you know, admirer of his obviously, you know, rest in peace. Well, I went to his, his support group for a while after Ray was done with his investigation. Um, and Jim real quick, just for the audience, for basic context, John Mack was the head of the Harvard psychiatry department and a brilliant guy.

1:43:48He actually even wrote the Pulitzer prize winning, um, I believe, Lawrence of Arabia. Yeah, that's right. Who's an expert on him. The prince of disorder. And as really kind of a mystic in his own right, but also obviously academically as credentialed as it gets. And towards the end of his career, he started to, because he was a clinician, see people who had missing time and get into the whole, you know, alien abduction phenomena and was actually childhood friends serendipitously with Bud Hopkins, who was this amazing aggregator of a lot of these experiences himself. So go on. Yeah, so anyway, my impression of John when I first met him was I knew that he was a psychiatrist and he was affiliated with Harvard and he had credentials up the kazoo.

1:44:39And so when I went to his support groups, I noticed that they were, from my perspective, I saw two different camps of people. One camp, which I considered myself a member of, was the nuts and bolts. I called it the nuts and bolts. You know, I want to see physical evidence. I want to see physical beings. And then the other camp was more of a, like, people who thought that their experiences were more ethereal, multidimensional beings that weren't physical, but communicated. More of a consciousness-based. Consciousness-based. Mm-hmm. And that these people seemed to think that the aliens were our saviors, that they were going to save the human race and they were here to uplift our consciousness to a level where there's no more hate or war and all that stuff.

1:45:50Which was fine. I didn't have a problem with it. I mean, but I did notice that, and I think John was more the second camp because of his training as a psychiatrist. He, you know, because what a psychiatrist's job to do, their job is to heal people, you know. And these people all had like serious problems dealing with this stuff. It's like, even though they, even though we all believe that we actually, that these experiences were real for us, it still creates all kinds of psychological problems. You know, how to deal with other people who don't, who think you're crazy. Yeah. Or think you're, you know, subhuman for some reason or something wrong with you because you have these beliefs that are out of the box.

1:46:37And so my impression of John Mack was that he saw it as his mission to help these people become self-actualized again, where they could live with their experiences without pain or fear or anxiety. Kind of reintegrated back into society and probably simultaneously. And still be able to live with their experiences, you know, because that was the difference between him and the rest of the community, the rest of the psychiatric community, especially at Harvard, which is why they tried to kick him out. Yeah. Was that, no, these people are, you know, they're lunar. There's something wrong with these people.

1:47:26And John was saying, look, I've given them every kind of psychiatric and psychological tests I can think of. They're all coming out as normal people. And neither of you had any kind of mental health history prior? No. The only mental problems I had was from the seizures. Mm-hmm. Because I'd have auras. Mm-hmm. You know, I'd smell things or hear things. Sure. How many beings were on the craft?

1:47:56Well, hard to say. Yeah. Yeah, it really would be because there were people or beings in the, like control room area that we were ushered through on our way into the exam area. And as we left, we passed because that was where I inquired about their power system, their propulsion system. And so you learned some stuff directly from them about the propulsion system or? Well, I was explained the way you would explain something to a six-year-old. that it operates in a similar fashion to the way a submarine can work at different atmospheres in the water, different levels by the amount of air that it keeps in its inner hull to maintain that depth.

1:48:52And they could match gravitational fields. And so that was the way they were sort of examining example a to what we do this is so like where your submarine works this is the way our craft works when it's in in a planetary gravitational area so it would like you mentioned with the submarine you have a certain amount of air between the inner and outer hull which manages the depth and you're saying that they're doing something similar where they're modulating gravitational in fields interesting yeah that's fascinating very yeah yeah well it's good you know think about that i'll mull that over well i mean it's just like we can do things magnetically that um where you take the two very powerful magnets and you have the same polarity you have all this resistance if you try touching them to one another and their ability was to match and a gravitational field to propel them away from from a denser field to a less dense field i don't know it's the only way i can think of Yeah.

1:50:16Did you have any sense of where they came from, why they were taking, you know, samples from you guys? No. It's interesting because the kind of, you know, gammy, you know, semen and egg sample thing comes up a lot. That's very common. It's almost like there's some intergenerational alien breeding program. Yeah. That's kind of where you end up with a lot of these guys. Don't we do the exact thing, same thing to animals? Sure. On our planet. Yeah, we domesticate animals all the time. We breed them. We create new species. We do the same thing with people and like, you know, dynasty families. It's wild to think that, but it's true.

1:50:57And sometimes I think about these gray alien beings and you think about what an evolutionary biologist would say a human is evolving into. Given that we're being domesticated right now, that is not a controversial thing to say. We are, you know, testosterone is dropping off a cliff. sperm count is dropping off a cliff for men. We're losing, you know, the melanin in our skin. That happens over a long period of time. So you end up with these beings that, you know, they lose the melanin in their skin. Their prefrontal cortex is larger because decision making is probably more important with the advent of, you know, the AI white collar work age.

1:51:35Their ears and nose become vestigial. We're not hunter gathering. Their eyes become more slit like because we use more screens and their bodies are sort of wiry and spindly because our physical bodies become less important. And they develop some sort of, you know, latent telepathic power, which you're now seeing, you know, the telepathy tapes and like, you know, people starting to lend more rigorous scientific credence to the idea that maybe we have this mind matter sort of thing. And so they've selected for all of this stuff that you would expect humanity to select for. It's very interesting.

1:52:09That's right. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I've heard from some people at some of the conferences where they believe that they're actually us from the future. Yes. Yeah. That exactly. There's a guy named Mike Masters. And then I somehow think that, you know, that's a really interesting theory that's important. And then it's somehow too simple. Like there's something else going on too, you know, but it's, it's, it's always hard to theorize. The problem I always have is the interdimensional stuff against the physical. I mean, if they can travel interdimensionally, why do they have craft? What do they need a craft for?

1:52:44Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, it's like, what? Yeah, it's almost like some of these things are symbolic memes that change over time. And that would be the Jacques Vallée idea. Yeah, I mean, is that craft that we saw really something physical or just something they wanted us to see as physical? I don't know. Did any of you, so, okay, so the physical evidence would be like the ankle, your hair not growing around your ankle, your brother having - Tumors in the same spot. Tumors in the exact same spot. Anything else as far as like a physical, you know, remnant of the experience? Well, one of the things that has always fascinated me personally was the fact that all of us, or the three of us, most certainly had major changes in the direction of our lives and our artwork after the Allagash.

1:53:45where I was training myself to be a school teacher to work with children teaching art, I ended up becoming a medical artist, working with medical scientists, medical researchers, and being aware of all kinds of new technologies. The technology I mentioned that they use to look at our chests or at our torsos When I was a medical photographer, I would use ultraviolet light sources and ultraviolet film, infrared film and infrared light sources to photograph human bodies. Because with ultraviolet light, you can see through the skin and see the blood vessels much clearer than you can with your naked eyes.

1:54:47so we use magnetic fields to look inside the human body now to look at soft tissue and your MRIs prior to that was your x-rays and then CAT scans and you can use ultrasound sonic waves and tomograms the whole nine yards all these different radiological tools so I was talking with a physician about this and uh and he said well he said it's just like when you know uh defibrillators first showed up in the world you know they were these You know, experimental paddles that you touch the heart or, you know, to restart the heart's function. And that all of these technologies that these beings have were slowly catching up.

1:55:53I mean, if you stop and any rational person stop and think, in 1903, which was 123 years ago, two bicycle builders from Ohio did the first manned flight, not a glider. They weren't gliding from a high elevation to a different elevation or a different location. They took off from a low elevation and landed at a higher elevation. That was flight. 66 years after that, we were walking on the moon in 66 years. Now, these entities, these beings that we don't know where they come from. They have science that's even patting us on the back saying thousands of years ahead of us. They might be hundreds of thousands of years ahead of us.

1:57:05The Milky Way galaxy, there are more stars and planets in the Milky Way galaxy than grains of sand on planet earth. That's what I've been told by astrophysicists, and that is a number that just is almost incomprehensible for me. And that the technologies that we have and we're developing, like sound technology without speakers uh bone conducting headphones yeah send the vibrations through your cheekbones and i hear better with these than i do listening to people yeah it's fascinating it you can bypass the ear canal through vibration yeah beethoven went deaf famously, and he would chew on this rod and that would allow him to hear once he went deaf, which was obviously very important for him as this amazing composer.

1:58:11Speaking of very advanced technology, maybe the most shocking thing that you said, Charlie, right before we started rolling, which I got so excited about is I've been researching this guy named John Norseen. Yeah. And he is, you know, this interesting engineer who has this Lockheed patent for essentially how to fly a UFO with your mind. How to use sort of biofeedback from the brain in order to remote control, remote pilot a craft. And he talks about brain prints, the idea that we have fingerprints, but you might also have a unique kind of, you know, electromagnetic signature. Just like iris or whatever.

1:58:52Iris, yeah. So fascinating guy who seems well ahead of his time. And I have to think if there is, you know, a legacy UFO crash retrieval program, which I do believe they are either tracking him, you know, and he's now since, you know, he's passed away, but they were either tracking him or they were working directly with him would be my guess. And so this is fascinating because you said that John Norse, you spoke to John Norse and he was at Allagash in 1976 in August when you guys were there and experienced your abduction. He read our report to the ranger that same day. That's what he told us. Whoa.

1:59:35He read your report to the ranger that same day. And what did he say he was doing there? He said he was doing a TTR, tag, trace, retrieve exercise with a subcutaneous device that they were testing that they could monitor field agents. You know, it would tell them like blood pressure, heart rate, that sort of stuff. So he would... What exactly? He would put this RFID chip or something on some other military folk and they would go off into Allagash and they were testing to see how well they could track these people. They could track them. Exactly. That's so fascinating. That's what he told us. and does any part of you guys think that because you know i think about some of these narratives with like you know ufos showing up around nuclear sites and i don't know it might not be a coincidence that you're uh you know uh you're uh uh in the navy in a nuclear capacity there's a nuclear air force base or was at the time in the 70s up in northern maine what was what was the name of that base do you remember oh it wasn't an air force guy loring loring loring Boring Air Force Base.

2:00:52But this was near, was it near Allagash? Yeah, 90 miles away from Allagash. Okay. Interesting. In Northern Maine. And it was a secret nuclear base. They had an episode, it was either 1975 or 1976, where craft were coming over the base and these laser type beams were coming out and they were mapping the nuclear stockpiles. And this is around the time that you guys had your experience, 90 miles away. Around the same time. You said 75 or 76. 75, 76, yeah. Yeah, well, that's around the same time. Well, there's like many reported incidents over our nuclear missile sites where these craft would appear above them.

2:01:38And then all the missiles go offline. All their computers shut down. Yep. And they go into a massive freak out. Freak out. Oh, yeah. I've interviewed a lot of those guys firsthand, and I think they're all legit. So 90 miles away, you had this Air Force base. They reported UFOs showing up within a year or two of your experience with lasers shooting out of the UFOs, seeming to sort of track or do. Well, they were definitely mapping the bunkers. And that's a common thing you hear. Yeah, that they're sort of, you know, testing the tip of the spear of human defense and, you know, knowing, you know, either to protect ourselves, protect their resources.

2:02:21You know, some of the people in the national security state say there might be, you know, doing ISR and doing recon. I don't know. I don't believe that. I don't. I don't believe that. Yeah. Yeah. I don't buy the whole the idea that they're a threat. And, you know, I think they're. Oh, if they wanted to do something. Yeah. We couldn't do diddly. That's right. And they would have done it years ago. They were like, why? It's like, they are so advanced. It's like, yeah, why do they need to like, you know, play around with us before, before, you know, it's like what, at what point in your ISR, you know, recon do you say, okay, we can like take these guys out?

2:03:00Like they can, they can clearly take us out now if they wanted to. I mean, good lore. Yeah, you look back at artwork from the Renaissance era and you have a lot of depictions of like UFOs in some of these pieces of artwork. Yeah. No, it's clearly it's across civilizations and across millennia phenomena. So if they were going to threaten us, I mean, they would have done us way before the Neanderthal were bred out. Yeah. And that's another thing. A lot of people think the Neanderthal were killed by Cro-Magnum and Homo sapiens sapiens, which is what the species we are. But they got literally screwed out of existence.

2:03:48I want to stick with this John Norseen thing, because I think this is really interesting. So he was doing TTR, this sort of tracking thing of other, you know, fellow military combatants or something, seeing if they'd go out in the field and track them. I got to know John pretty good. How'd you meet him? We met him at - Mutual friend of ours down in Newport. Down in Newport. Would bring together experiencers. And she's somebody that - Was he an experiencer, Norsean? No. No. He was working with an artist in Jamestown across the bay. What was he doing when you met him? Do you know what his job was?

2:04:32And John, I don't really know what his job was. He was telling us things. And then he said, well, I can't really tell you what I'm doing now because I would probably end up dead in some hotel room somewhere. And I was thinking. That's exactly what happened to him. And I was. He ended up dead in a hotel room? Yes, exactly. No way. Down Tennessee, was it? I don't remember. Somewhere, I think it was. They claimed it was a heart attack. But he told us at Ann's. Yeah. He said, because he was talking a lot about stuff that everybody knew he shouldn't be talking about. Well, it just seemed like science fiction.

2:05:07Yeah, it seemed like science fiction. I even said to him, you know, John. Isn't that a bit out of turn? You shouldn't be talking about this. What? Whoa. Because he was drinking. You know, I mean, everybody was drinking wine and he was. What did he say was his job title in the 70s, in 76 when he was at Allagash? Do you remember? Primarily a research function. Yeah, I think he said he was doing government research. Government research. Had to be working with the military because they were, you know, TTR-ing agents in the field. And no part of you guys thinks that your experience was some sort of smokescreen for, like, covert government experimentation.

2:05:48I don't think so, no. I asked John that. I personally did. You asked. I asked John that. I said, John, you know, is what we saw up there, and I mean, did we like stumble into something that we shouldn't have stumbled into, and then you nailed us and hypnotized us or gave us drugs or something to make us believe that we had this abduction experience to cover your butt? He said, no. And he believed in what he said. Yeah, no, I could tell he was telling the truth. He said, we wouldn't do that. We'd just go away. No, I mean. Leave you with a story nobody's going to believe. Right, sure. Yeah, exactly.

2:06:27It's not like you guys have had an easy time since you came out with your story. No, I almost wonder if the meta phenomena of the UFOs showing up around the tip of the spear of human defense and ingenuity, they're showing up at nuclear sites and at particle accelerators and things where we are literally messing with sort of space time itself. you could imagine them maybe being interested in a, you know, chip tracking, uh, you know, human experiment and them showing up around that. So, you know, I think the kind of easy, lazy skeptic thing would be to say that, Oh, it's a, it's a smokescreen for some MK ultra thing.

2:07:08But maybe the more interesting and possibly true narrative would be that their activities, which were seemingly covert might've attracted the phenomena itself. Well, that's what John told me. Oh, hey, here's Alexander Graham Bell. Let's go down and listen to what he's saying. Yeah, exactly. But you're saying that's what John literally told you? Yeah, that's what he believed, too. That's interesting. That the experiments that he was conducting may have been just attracting these things. And he ended up dead in a hotel room. I don't know what year it was. In fact, it followed a really weird email that I had gotten from him because he had contacted me via email.

2:07:49You know, he was an RVer. He was one of the early RVers. Yeah. And remote viewers. Yeah. And he had sent me an email and said, and some of the other people from Ann's, and he said, listen, I'm giving a lecture on my latest research at the Naval College in Newport. do you want a VIP pass to come and attend it? And I was like, oh, yeah. So he said, okay, I'll get it all set up. And then at the end of his email, you know, he was into, I forget what the term is for this kind of use of language. Semiotics. Semiotics, yeah. He was really into that. And the last sentence in his email said,

2:08:37And he said, I RV'd the upcoming lecture, John not heard nor seen. Whoa. And I remember calling Ann and saying, hey, Ann, what the heck does this last sentence mean? John not heard nor seen. I know he's in the semiotics and stuff, so, you know, nor seen is his last name. But John not heard nor seen. And then just like two weeks after that, he was found dead in a motel room. Jesus Christ. So that was some sort of code where it's like he remote viewed his own death. He remote viewed it and he wasn't there. And this was code to say he's not heard nor seen. Yeah. I mean, what else could that mean?

2:09:22Oh, my God. I mean, what? This is nuts. And he probably was working on program stuff. Who knows? I mean, he was working at that time with this artist, this amazing artist in Jamestown. Duncan Laurie is his name. He's a sculptor, glass artist. But at that time, John was working with him on life energy auras around rocks and plants and things like that. Bioenergetics. Bioenergetics, yeah. Very interesting. Very, yeah. Well, this is a wild and very interesting interview. I feel like we'd go on forever, but Charlie, you had, uh, cause you were in the Navy, you had a very interesting, you know, UFO experience that, that I want to get into.

2:10:11Yeah. In May of 1970, uh, we were off the coast of Spain, uh, doing what we had gone out there to do. and it was just after we've knocked off working for the day, waiting for the call to evening meal. There were about 24 of us that went up on the main deck, have cigarettes, kick around, kill some time until it's time to go eat. We had a commissioned officer who was a lieutenant, a highest ranking enlisted which was a chief petty officer and then descending ranks from there and one of the guys said what the f is that and so we all kind of like turned to look toward the stern of the ship and just as i was looking back i saw these two lights coming toward us i mean faster than you could swing your arm uh from your shoulder to directly in front of you and come to a stop these things were going faster than that and came to a complete stop and uh we observed them for almost two minutes two full minutes and uh one of these points of lighter spheres ascended so quickly that it went from like a point of light to a line and was gone just snip but less time than it did for me to say that snip dip and it was gone and then uh about 30 seconds later the other one did the exact same thing and they both went vertical straight up so fast you just couldn't believe what you were looking at so we turned to the officer that was there and we said sir, what the hell was that?

2:12:25And he looked at the chief, then he looked at us and he looked at the chief and he looked back at us and he said, if I were you guys, I wouldn't say anything to anyone anyhow, because no one's going to believe you. And this topic's closed. And with that, he turned and ran up into officer's country. And I, I've never forgotten that verbatim quote, you know, nobody's going to believe you anyhow well this topic is closed i think they believe you guys now because you know now you have directors of national intelligence directors of the cia presidents saying we're looking into this stuff yeah you got pilots using their cell phones to photograph freaking ufos that aren't from here yeah it's uh the evidence is becoming pretty overwhelming and i think the consensus is rapidly shifting and um you said uh and this is i think going to be also uh if we find corroboration for this really you know healthy vindication for you know allagash as well oh absolutely may 1970 uss holland is where this occurred correct and so off the coast of spain off the coast of spain and this thing was seen on the starboard side and maybe it's still in the logs.

2:13:45So to anybody who has any experience with the Freedom of Information Act and knows how to send those requests, try to get this stuff out. Yeah, if you can access that stuff, I'd be certainly interested in knowing what was reported. Awesome. Can we talk a little bit more about how this experience has affected our artwork? Sure. Because there were two things that changed. Well, we talked a little bit about yours. Just touching base and Jack's obsession about mathematics. I mean, this happened immediately after we returned to Boston. And before we went to the Allagast, Jack was doing... Endangered species.

2:14:29Well, he was doing like really tight kind of illustrative silkscreen designs. One of them is in the Museum of Art in Washington, D.C. poster and devil's pup. Yeah. I don't know if the devil's pupfish is, but, um, anyway. And then he was also doing these kind of like, um, uh, what kind of painting it is. Abstract expressionist painting of, um, landscapes. That was the kind of work he was in. And then like immediately after coming back from the Allagash, he like just became obsessed with all this kind of weird mathematical stuff. He was building models of icosododecahedrons out of straws. Whoa. He was incorporating grids in all of his artwork in very incredibly intriguing ways.

2:15:30Whoa. And there's one piece that I really loved. I would like to know whatever happened to it. Toss grid salad. Oh, that's Craig, a friend of ours. Oh, Craig's got that? Anyway, and he was like, you know, we live together, you know, and I'm his twin. So, like, no secrets. And I'd be like, Jack, what the hell is going on here? You know, like, what are you doing? And he'd go, I don't know, but I have to do this. I have to do this. And, like, he just, like, kept going and going and going. And years later, somebody came, our friend Mike Asherman came to the house. This guy is like a brilliant MIT programmer and scientist.

2:16:20He helped them build their tokamak at MIT. And he came over one night and he was looking at Jack's artwork and he goes, you know, I know what this is, Jack. This is, get this book, Secrets of the World Grid. World Grid and Anti-Gravity by David Hatcher Childress. And go to this chapter in here, you'll see Jack's, what's the math behind all of this stuff. What? Yeah. And this guy's building tokamak? Yeah. Wild. So it's almost like your brother was channeling frontier science. Yeah, and the same thing happened to me. When I came back, before I went up to the Allagash, I was making production pottery.

2:17:03I was making bowls and cups and platters and plates and things and teapots. And when I was like just days after this event on the Allagash, I had this. Epiphany. I mean, it was like an epiphany. It's the only word I can think of to describe it. All of a sudden, this thing came into my head, fully developed, that if I worked with clay this way, I could do this really unique kind of creations with clay that are so far total opposite of production pottery. And I became obsessed with this stuff. I almost got kicked out of the program because of it. But I stayed with it and I managed to convince them that this was something legitimate that I really wanted to look at.

2:17:55Some of the most amazing artwork. And then in addition to that, I became obsessed, like my brother, on ancient architecture. Places like Teotihuacan and Tiwanaku, Baalbek, and the temples in Southeast Asia. Angkor Wat and Angkor Thom. the pyramids. And I just became obsessed because I had this. You know, that's also common among experiencers. They'll say, I've become obsessed with the pyramid. I have a buddy who you guys might be friends with too, Mario Woods from the Ellsworth Air Force Base abduction experience, South Dakota, 1977. And he goes after, he goes, this is going to sound weird, but after my experience, I just became obsessed with pyramids.

2:18:44Yeah, so did I. And I had this belief, which I still have. I believe that these sites, these structures, these architectural sites are a form of macro chip technology. That they're not just ceremonial places that people went and prayed to their gods. Yeah, I believe that too. That they actually used these structures for some kind of purpose, a functional purpose. I agree. Why did they have huge sheets of mica brought to Teotihuacan Sun Pyramid from 2 ,000 to 3 ,000 miles away in South America and then put them under the floor structures of the temples? I mean, mica is used in the electronics industry.

2:19:38And so why would they do that if it's not decorative? And it's not just in the Pyramid of the Sun. It's in all the other pyramids in that immediate area. They all utilize this mica. So mica is used as an insulator to make capacitors. Another point. Very interesting. Yeah. And I've always, and that was like just something that. Creating strong electric fields. Yeah. I'm reading a book now. It's called Seeds of Knowledge, Stones of Power, I think it is. And I can't think of the author. I just started reading it this past week. Found it on Amazon, where these researchers went to all these pyramid sites in Mesoamerica, Europe, Egypt, and they took measurements of the electrical fields, field energies of these locations.

2:20:43And they claim in their argument in their book that these peoples, the Incas and the Aztecs, the Mayans, the Olmecs, were using these structures to make their seed more virulent. And that—so they started doing tests at these same sites with bags of seeds or whatever containers of seeds. and they found out that they increase yield per acre like three to five times. It's like electroculture or something. Yeah. Ancient electroculture. Bioelectrics. Yeah. Fascinating. Well, Jim, Charlie, this was an absolute honor. It was a lot of fun. Thank you. Yeah, it was really amazing to hear your story. And I hope people start to use the Freedom of Information Act to try to get to the bottom of the 1970 experience as well.

2:21:36That'd be interesting. I'd like to know. And I want to give a shout out to the great James Fox for the very generous introduction here. And thank you both for your time. Well, you're very, very welcome. It's been an honor, Jesse. Oh, all mine. Head to AmericanAlchemyMerch.com to grab official American Alchemy merch and support the show directly. And while you're there, the Cowboy UFO T is a fan favorite we always keep in stock, along with the Atomic Age design. Thank you all so much for following and supporting the show.

2:22:10Thank you.