NASA Chief: "We Just Built Antigravity Propulsion!”

29:25But I think first, just, you know, for the lay audience, mass ejection is the current kind of paradigm. And so it's, yeah, it's Newton's third law. And it's just, you know, you expel a ton of mass. A lot of these rockets, like look at like, you know, SpaceX's, you know, Starship, it's mostly fuel in the rocket itself. That's most of the tonnage is just fuel. And then you obviously have a, you know, a decently high payload capacity on top of that, but that's a very small percentage of the overall rocket. And so it's very inefficient from that standpoint. And then because you have a limited amount of fuel, you can't really get to like Proxima Centauri B.

30:04And if you could, it would take you 80 ,000 years with current speeds. And that's like the closest habitable planet. So I always, you know, bring these things up because even if Elon Musk were sitting in your chair, there's no argument he would have to defeat. That's just physics. You You know, like there's nothing he could say to that. And so I think what you're looking into is like the most, you know, people can come back with first principles arguments and say you're wrong. But like, it's the most important thing. For space, it absolutely is. There's no question. Because like you said, I think it's 95 % of a rocket's mass is just fuel.

30:44And you expel it almost immediately and then you're done with it. so then you're just out using inertia to get you wherever you need to go unless you have a little bit of fuel to get back but you know just the amount of fuel it's going to take to get to mars how many starships it's going to take that have to be fueled just to get to mars it's just astounding it's an incredible amount of massive fuel yeah i mean just to the moon do you i don't know if you know this but the starship burns nine tenths of its fuel tank it goes into low Earth orbit. Then it does butt to butt refueling with another starship that goes up, burns nine tenths of its fuel tank.

31:20And then that gets disposed of. So you end up with two tenths. You have to do that eight more times. Then you have, you know, a full tank. And then that goes to the moon. And that's just the moon. That's not even Mars. Oh, it's it's astounding. The numbers I've seen. It's astounding. It's doesn't seem rational. It doesn't. And you never bet against steel on he all you know any engineering feat you know people were saying starship itself wouldn't work and the the pez dispenser flap that allowed the starlings to come out was like you know that was get ripped off and that there are all these things they had and it seems like it's starting to work you know it has orbited earth um and then there's still you know uh modifications and updates they need to make so you know not pouring cold water on that engineering effort but again I do think from a physics perspective, from a pure design perspective, if there is this other force, we should obviously be looking into.

32:18I mean, there's got to be a better way. And I always believed ever since I've started studying science that there has to be another way. So even as a young kid. Totally. Just, it doesn't make sense. Yeah, I agree. It just doesn't make sense. So I kind of just tailored my career, just understanding science, what we knew about it, everything that I could. So clearly you had this kind of imagination and just preconceived idea that maybe we could transcend the limits of chemical combustion. Maybe there was something sitting in electromagnetism, this 19th century modality. Describe and hopefully in detail, kind of in visceral detail, the first time you witnessed this force and what it felt like.

33:05When you need to build up your team to handle the growing chaos at work, use Indeed Sponsored Jobs. It gives your job post the boost it needs to be seen and helps reach people with the right skills, certifications and more. Spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Listeners of this show will get a$75 sponsored job credit at Indeed.com slash podcast. That's Indeed.com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need a hiring hero? This is a job for Indeed Sponsored Jobs. I would say the first time I witnessed it, or A-Force, based on a theory that I had, was probably 2010.

33:47That's wild. So that was 2010 with my brother-in-law, future brother-in-law. We weren't married then, but he was in the laboratory working with me, and I set up an experiment, and I had him run it. now the other scientist i was working on on another project you know thought i was just full of bs which is perfect fine so he did not help us at all you know he's a seasoned physicist you know very well known in in his field and um just thought i was just doing garbage and that's fine i don't care so i still had you know my brother-in-law nathan do the experiment in the laboratory. And we were looking at a laser on a wall so you can see small displacements force in a chamber.

34:34It wasn't an air chamber. It wasn't a vacuum chamber. And he did the test and we saw the laser move. Like, oh, well, that's pretty cool. It's supposed to do that, I thought. And my colleague, Dr. Clements, Sid, stopped what he was doing, went over to Nathan. Okay, you've done this. You've done this. Okay, now we got to do that. He just completely immersed in that experiment after that. Yeah. Wow. It was like, what is happening here? This is really crazy. Something is weird. So that was the first time that was very, very exciting for me because it was the first time we all seen it. And it happened to be a world class scientist there to help us.

35:09You know, it was actually like, wow, what happened here? So you kind of you converted him almost at least into thinking it was worthy of inquiry. I didn't need to say anything else after that. That's amazing. Is he now a believer in? Oh, I think so. He's seen it a few times. And what's his background? He is an electrostatics expert. Okay. He is my mentor. And what's his name? Dr. Sid Clements. Dr. Sid Clements. Okay. Yeah. He is my mentor, so that's where I learned electrostatics. That's wild, but he saw your experiment, and he was like, oh, my God, there's something else here. There's something there.

35:42There's something there. It's exciting. It was an exciting moment. That's incredibly exciting. And so you see this, and what do you think is the next step at that point? Because, you know, you see this little displacement, this laser displacement based on this possible force. Do you design a new experiment right after that? We designed many experiments after that. It led us down many different paths. You know, that's kind of how this goes. If you don't know exactly what's happening, it can lead you down different paths. Some were successful, some were moderate successful, some weren't. Really didn't hit too much success after that until I met Andrew.

36:22okay here's the story with that if you're interested i'm very so we had a colleague andrew and i a friend named mike he knew about us working on this independently for years and never told us never did he wanted to see if we can do it independently you know like a race against i don't know who but so he's playing dumb he was playing he knew about this force And he was just like, let's see how far they get. He knew Andrew was working on it. He knew I was working on it. He just wanted to see who would win the race. Oh, Jesus. That's like this Machiavellian level 4D chess going on. And Mike, his excitement was that we were both working at NASA or as contractors or been at NASA.

37:10And he was just super excited that we were not doing this at NASA. It's like, oh, this has a chance. because once you get a NASA and get a bureaucracy and get into government, there's a lot of ways that can be hindered. So he was loving that we decided to do that outside of work. Of course, at the time I wasn't working at NASA. I was a consultant for ExxonMobil. But so we worked together because Andrew needed an electrostatics guy. Andrew knew he was getting into the realm of electrostatics. What was Andrew's background? Andrew? Yeah. Andrew Rarajima, he is an engineer. Okay. He has been an engineer for, gosh, 35 years or so.

37:51And he goes by Drew. Drew. And he, so he wasn't getting into this via electrostatics. If that's the case, what exactly was he doing? Well, he was using the term electro-gavitics. Oh, interesting. So this is the Thomas Townsend Brown. So he's in that, he's in that, it was in that camp. I love it. I'm in that camp. i'm not exactly there but yeah yeah yeah i might move there we'll see i don't know i'm still on the fence on the gravitics part well we'll we'll we'll meet in the middle we'll figure it out yeah to me it was a little bit pretentious okay you're doing gravity and with electromagnetism maybe so you meet drew and then what happens so at the time i was working with the the field momentum converting into linear momentum stuff i wasn't in the gravity world I was in the field momentum world.

38:44So we go to Drew's house. I take my wife. And we spent, you know, four or five hours looking at his setup, looking what he's doing.

38:55And I gave him a lot of pointers. He could try this, try that, try this. You know, all the things I would do in electrostatics to help him along. His experiment looked very different than mine. His was just a needle, high voltage needle in a Teflon casing. Um, you know, it's pretty interesting. Um, if he's getting forces or that, that's kind of interesting. I don't know how you would until my wife told me as we're leaving the driveway, my wife was like, isn't that the same force you're working on? Just manifested differently. She's a physicist too. She's the best. Wow. So she like, we go back and forth on these things.

39:34Is she at NASA as well? She is. Wow. What'd she do there? She's in the launch services program. Cool. So she doesn't have her PhD in physics, but she's taken engineering physics in undergrad and she's really good at math. So if I need help with math, I just, hey, Janessa, help me with this equation. Help me with this integral. She'll have like a baby on her arm. Okay, fine. I'll do it for you. That's awesome. She'll come in and look at the whiteboard. She's like, this is not right. She's very smart. It's fun to bounce stuff off her. But she was clear. She's like, no, you should look at this, your force that you're trying to do with his setup, see if you're working on the same thing, just a different twist.

40:16I said, well, that can't be right. So I went back to my lab and I made a needle, but I did it differently using what I thought would work. And I would, you know, I put a, there's videos of this on our website. You put a tube over the end of the needle and you put scotch tape on the tube. So there's no eye on wind getting out. And you shove the needle in that tube. You encase the darn tube. Then I cranked up my power supply and that thing moved three, four feet in the air. And I sent that video to Drew. I says, and Drew's like, oh, I guess we're working together now. Wow. So you have achieved how much force roughly now with your current experiments?

40:56Additives somewhere to five to 10 millinewton range. Okay. And so for people listening, if you were to apply that to like a satellite in space in a microgravity or zero gravity environment, that would be huge sure you would be able to do yeah initial markets that's what we're comfortable with we're a space company we all work at the space agency different levels not just nasa but you know the peripherals and this is where we're comfortable with there's definitely when we say when do we hit unity well we've hit unity for space unity for moon mars all of these places so So we can make flying cars on the moon and Mars and all of that.

41:38So it's a very exciting place to be right now without any significantly huge development. It could theoretically lead to deep space exploration. You could help maintain orbits for satellites where there's orbital decay. That's what our hope is. And you can move these satellites maybe to other orbits as well. There's a company called Impulse Space. They do like kick stages where you would move between orbits where maybe you'd go up on SpaceX rideshare with another group of satellites, but you'd want to move into a dedicated orbit. You could use a thruster like this to do something like that. No doubt.

42:19That's what our goal is. Super cool. And then what about like replacing rockets? Could we ever do that with this? Well, if we get Earth unity, we don't need rockets, right? That's true. You have to think about things a little differently. But could the 10 millinewtons of thrust turn into newtons of thrust? And could we end up launching things into space with this, you know, Exodus method or this other? That is our main goal to try to do that. You know, that's where we, the self-launcher is what we call it. Do you have blueprints around this self-launcher? Do you have a sense of the energy requirements or anything like that?

42:56We don't. Okay. But we're on the path. So we know what we need to do. We just have to go set out and do it. Have you gone up in over the 2000 iterations? Have you gone up in million newtons of thrust? Sure. Okay. So you have a sense of the levers to get more thrust. There are levers and there are several. Uh-huh. And we're trying to optimize those. And what are the primary levers? There's like we talked about voltage, the materials, properties, breakdown strength of materials, the type of signals we send. the physical limits on the materials. There's so many. What are the ideal materials for this sort of experiment?

43:37Well, we're dealing with high voltage, so we need materials with high dielectric breakdown strength, but we also have permittivity issues we have to contend with, geometry issues we have to contend with, static dissipation issues we have to contend with. There are a lot of other issues, and that's just the DC. When you get to other frequencies or you get to other exotic types, you know, charge injection, electrics, things can get even wackier. So we are looking at some of the interesting materials now that have other properties, which we're going to keep to ourselves for now, but it's something that's very, very interesting for now.

44:11Let's just see if it goes anywhere. It could lead to nowhere, but we're just looking at it. Cool. You know, there's other things out there. In the Townsend Brown context, barium titanate and bismuth often come up are either of those relevant to your experience as well we have some some uh experiments with barium titanate a couple years ago it's a good high uh primitivity powder um i don't know what the results of those were there weren't uh particularly interesting what was the other one you said uh bismuth oh bismuth yeah i've seen bismuth a lot bismuth looks like fun i would love to test with some bismuth um there's some cool things that they found arts parts materials.

44:53Yep. Which is kind of neat because they had some weird geometries in there, which I would project that we would have needed. But to see that real life already made, oh, that's kind of cool. Can't wait to go test those exotics. But that's down the road for us. Yeah. We're going to try to stay focused and do what we're good at right now and then work on the more exotic stuff later, I think. And so in doing these experiments, did you have access to a vacuum chamber? Because I I feel like it's been a lot of the reason, you know, everybody always questions me on this. They're like, this experiment sounds very simple because I always bring up the Townsend Brown experiment.

45:30And they're like, why has nobody done it yet? And I say, I give two reasons. I say people always try to explain it away via the ion wind. And it's so similar to the ion wind related experiments that it's easy to do that. It's always easy to say there's ambient ionization in the vacuum. That's number one. And then number two, access to an industrial grade vacuum chamber is pretty limited and it's obviously very expensive. And so did you have access, you know, based on your kind of NASA background? Yes. You know, Drew and I have access to a chamber. He's got one at his house. He's very resourceful.

46:09He funded it himself. It's a nice size vacuum chamber. He also has a second one that he's going to get online soon, which is almost a walk-in size vacuum chamber. so very pricey but hopefully with some funding we get that thing up to par running but yes we do have access to a high vacuum chamber that's where we do most of our tests and let me let's describe to the audience why it's important that ion wind can't get out because this is how you know i learned about all this stuff through thomas townsend brown and he used to do these experiments So Thomas Townsend Browns, this super interesting, mysterious guy who pops up at extremely high levels of aerospace.

46:52He was at the Navy for a very long time. He was at Martin Corporation the year that Skunk Works was formed in 1942 or three. there's an FBI document that is circulated now and out about him and says that he's the lead radar scientist in the entire Navy. He knows more about radar than anybody in the Navy. We have a lot of evidence that his electrohydrodynamics work, you know, this electric fields to manipulate airflow work ended up in the B-2 stealth bomber. So you have like two out of three things that he's talking about definitely being legit. And then the third thing he's saying is I've merged electromagnetism and gravity.

47:33And he talks about electrogravitics and specifically two experiments, 1956 in Paris, of which we have a witness who there's an audio recording of a deathbed confession in 2009. This guy, Jacques Corneone, who's a technical consultant for sued west which is uh you know an aerospace corporation there and you know they say there is a a force that is not only measurable in a vacuum at 10 to the negative 6 tor but um the force exceeds what you would ever see outside of a vacuum and then he does the same experiment at the bonson labs the institute of field physics in north carolina and it's this remarkable thing where you have this guy, two out of the three things he's saying, probably right.

48:19You have, you know, he's dealing with Curtis LeMay and the Rand Corporation, all these super high up people. And then this electro-gravitics thing just gets stigmatized and people just kind of forget about it. And it almost feels like he's trying to, he has this wounded prairie chicken routine where he's trying to stigmatize his own work. And so it's, it's fascinating. And the reason, so this is very long-winded, but you mentioned ion wind. The way people write off any of these experiments, including Thomas Townsend Brown's, is they say that these capacitor experiments, especially if they take place not in a vacuum, you end up with ionized air.

48:59The ionized air then bounces off of other air particles, and it's basically just Newton's law taking place, and then you get thrust. And so that's very different than showing this in a vacuum chamber, or in this case, you mitigated ions in another way. Is that right? Well, you kind of have to. Otherwise, you'll see the ion wind thrust. So you can either cap it, enclose it in a volume, whatever you have to do. But you don't want the ion wind to be playing a role here. And one of the things that's different about the force that we're talking about in the ion wind force, at least in terms of geometry is that the devices will move with the wind.

49:39So imagine a rocket moving in the direction that the exhaust is. That's crazy. So you have to remove the iron wind because of the stigma from it. Because a lot of scientists have tried to do these things and they've seen the iron wind and it's not a real force in the sense. It's not a propellantless force. There's propellant there, the wind. But the other thing is not. That's a different thing. That's a completely different beast and you would be an authority and your ability to delineate between i do videos where i take those um the lifters and i put them in a in a plastic box and put on a scale yeah and you watch the weight and you turn it on the thing lifts up and the weight's flat lines does not move at all wow so drew was like man i've never seen that video before that's conservation momentum right there that's what ion wind is doing yeah so that's exactly like all that you have all these DIY videos of these balsa wood lifters with tinfoil and you have the ions moving around the copper coil or whatever, and then you end up with thrust.

50:41But that is not this electrogravitic force or what you are calling, you know, this exodus force or, you know, electrostatic variation force, whatever it is. That is different. That is another force. So it's important for, you know, any experimental physicists who want to pour cold water on this. And the funny thing is Brown himself would use the electrohydrodynamic stuff, the stuff involving ion wind to cover for the electro gravitics. He would literally like because it's 95 percent similar, but it's not the same thing. And again, you are in a kind of an authoritative position in order to, you know, you have the ability to delineate between those two things.

51:25Yeah, that's important. It is really important. Yeah. And it's important because it's always the first order debunk on this entire thing. So you do this experiment that eliminates or controls for ion wind. I'm assuming you since then have done a series of experiments to control for all sorts of other possible confounding variables. yes so after drew and i did these experiments in 2016 i think we spent about two years trying to package it now there's one thing to put a hundred thousand volts on a device and have it move around in the room drew and i both knew that was completely impractical you can't do anything with that because you have to make something to attach it to a vehicle to a rocket to something that people have to be around and this this better damn well go inside a grounded box so we made a lot of effort took a lot of effort those two years to get the sucker packaged up in a way so it can actually be transportable and confined um so that was the initial pull to go into to get into a system where we can actually enclose everything coolant forces are the biggest killer in vacuum or in air so you can you know you can apply high voltage to something it'll attract to the wall floors ceilings far away it can still do that So you have to make sure that everything you do is inside a very well-grounded Faraday cage.

52:50So that is another one of our tests, our checks and balances. Do we have it inside of a Faraday cage? Is it all completely housed? Is it fields trapped within the system? Do we spin it the other way? There's a lot of checks and balances we have to do along the way. So Faraday cage would eliminate magnetic field interference? No. Okay. Only electric field. Only electric field interference. And then you also need vacuum chamber because, is that right or no? You don't need it. It's a lot easier. Okay. Because you get rid of the air. The gas breaks down like a million volts per meter fields. So the gases start breaking down.

53:30And when they break down, they create their own charges. And when they create their own charges, you can put charges where you don't want it. You can short. You can have charges leaking around the side. It really messes with you. So to do things in air is a bit more complicated than vacuum. Vacuum don't have to worry about that. Moisture is the biggest killer, especially in Florida. So you want to do stuff in a very dry environment or high vacuum if you can. So you're saying that in a vacuum chamber you get more thrust? You could make a system work better. Yes. Interesting. Well, Townsend Brown also said you'd get more thrust.

54:03You get more thrust because the field limit is not 10 to the 6th anymore. It's 10 to the 8th. Right. Right. So that's because it goes, the forces are related to pressure, they go up by field squared. So instead of 10 of the 6 squared is 10 of the 12th, 10 of the 8th squared is 10 of the 16. So now you have four orders of magnitude potential higher thrust just on the exterior part of your thrusters. So there's more to draw from the field. That's right. This is a field effect. It's not a voltage effect. When you need to build up your team to handle the growing chaos at work, use Indeed Sponsored Jobs.

54:41It gives your job post the boost it needs to be seen and helps reach people with the right skills, certifications and more. Spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Listeners of this show will get a$75 sponsored job credit at Indeed.com slash podcast. That's Indeed.com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need a hiring hero? This is a job for Indeed Sponsored Jobs. It's fascinating. Yeah, it's so interesting. But it really flies in the face of the debunkers saying that it's attributable to ion wind because in an environment where there is less ion wind, you are getting more thrust.

55:17And it might be due to this field effect, but still, you're controlling for the ion wind, which is what they're saying is accounting for the thrust. Yes, and you have to also, when you're in a vacuum chamber, now you have a new falsity, which could be the walls of the vacuum chamber, giant metal ground. So you want to make sure that you put your test device, whatever it is, in the side of a Faraday cage, and then you measure the force on the Faraday cage. Nothing else. Not what's inside of it. The whole box has to move. So you got to measure that. That makes sure that what you're seeing is real.

55:45Then you got to turn that sucker around so that you're not being attracted to the wall through the Faraday cage. So you want to make sure you're always going in the correct direction. So describe the current kind of state-of-the-art experimental setup on this. so that's basically what i was saying okay we'll put it a box it'll be a faraday cage a lot of ways to make faraday cages uh ground it really really well um if you do have voltage come in from outside or if you put the voltage inside you have to make sure it's shielded really really well you don't want any cool attraction to the walls or the housing or anything like that we've gotten good where we've lowered our voltage way way down we don't need 30 40 000 volts like we did 10 years ago um try to keep it all contained and then reverse it make sure it works.

56:26Put it in air, see if it works. Put it on the mass, put it on the scale, see if it works. Do the pendulum, do the rotator, do the spinner, do everything to make sure it's real. Because we hate falsities. We hate them. We don't want them. Okay, so what we have here is a thruster that is set on top of a scale in room air. Okay, so what Buehler is basically saying here is that he's testing a small experimental in-air thruster to show that it actually works. His team puts the thruster on a sensitive scale. Next, they connect it to electricity, about 480 volts to be exact. If you look to the bottom right of the screen, you'll see the voltage that is applied.

57:07You can also see the current in the center, the electric field, and the runtime. So this is a 42-minute video that we sped up to five minutes. They watch to see if the scale reading changes as a result of the thrust. We turn on the voltage here, it's about minus 480 volts. When they turn the power on, the thruster produces a tiny force. Within a few seconds, the force starts to be applied to the thruster, which is on top of the scale. And it goes in the negative direction, it's lifting up. They're specifically demonstrating that the force is real and controllable, enough to lift about 0.1 grams.

57:38Where we see about 0.1 grams, that corresponds to about one millinewton of thrust. When they turn the power off, the force goes away. Okay, so we leave it on for a few seconds, and then we turn it back off, and then you can see that it'll come back down. They repeat this to show it's not a fluke. So what we'll do is we'll do this again. We'll turn it back on, get it back up to the millinewton range, and let it sit for a few seconds. So what we're showing is that you can actually turn this force on and off. They then flip the thruster upside down and run the test again. So you'll see that here in a moment.

58:06And the reason why we have it off the scale itself, we do not want any attraction of the thruster to the scale itself. Although the fields are very, very weak, and in most cases there is a Faraday shield, we also want to make it so that it's very, very far away. Finally, they take full precautions to make sure nothing else is affecting the measurement. So we flip the thruster, we deionize it, basically we ionize the gases, we neutralize any charge that escapes, and then we re-tear the scale. It's typical, it's what's needed for scale testing. This thruster itself is surrounded by ground plates, so we try to minimize the field that escapes, but just in case, we neutralize it anyway.

58:38And then we turn the voltage back on, in this case about 480 volts or so, wait a few seconds, the thrust kicks on, and then we see the force is in the positive direction, so now it's being pulled down. Now, the force pushes down instead of up. This proves that the thruster itself is creating the force, not some outside interference or attraction to the scale, like electrical interference or the thruster just sticking to the scale. I would say this video proves the force fairly definitively to any skeptic, but you could technically say that this experiment requires a vacuum chamber because open air can get ionized.

59:13Again, ionized wind can result in thrust based on Newton's classical laws. But 480 volts isn't nearly enough to ionize the air, so it's kind of a moot point. But just for good measure, here is another variation of the experiment also showing thrust, this time in a vacuum chamber. What we have here is a vacuum test highlighting actual movement in vacuum using a dual thruster pack in the vertical spinner orientation. And how we measure the forces here is we have pegs at the bottom of the stand that are about two millimeters apart and the deflection, once the thruster is turned on, moves at about 14 millimeters, which corresponds to roughly about 2.5 millinewtons of thrust when we turn this device on.

59:55These devices are actuated externally to the vacuum chamber through a Bluetooth connection, so they're not in contact with anything, but the ITO walls that surround the thruster pack, shown by that clear transparent plastic, is perfectly grounded. So that eliminates coulomb attraction to the wall. We're also in high vacuum, so there's no ion wind interference. Just to highlight that these thrusters are actually developing thrust internally, not an external effect. So power systems inside the chamber, all the high voltages encased, surrounded with an indium-tinoxide sheathing, and the thruster does come on as expected and go off as expected for these earlier versions.

1:00:30So that is a nice way to show that there is actual physical movement in high vacuum. We're not just recording force measurements without actually corresponding that to real force. So these are just two out of the 2 ,000 experimental variations from Charles, Drew, and the Exodus team. If you're an experimental physicist with a credible background, maybe you have a PhD or you're a professor at a top 200 physics department and you're a bit bored and interested in exotic propulsion and you want to see one of these experiments with me live in person to help vet it and maybe change the world in the process, hit me up at usa.alchemy at gmail.com.

1:01:09Skeptics are extremely welcome. I want people who are in good faith trying to poke holes in the experimental setup here. If I were to pluck a random experimental physicist from an elite college and place him in front of this experiment, the exact experiment you just described, is there anything they could say to deny the empirical effect that you're seeing? I honestly don't know. I mean, as far as we can tell, the electrostatics community and with my colleagues, because it's DC, that eliminates all the magnetic effects. So you can get all kinds of weird stuff happening when you have magnetics going on.

1:01:52Earth's magnetic field or whatnot. And DC's direct current, are you saying if you had alternating current, you'd have weird magnetic field effects? So you'd have to account for any fake readings with that, yes, if you have AC, sure. Interesting. DC eliminates a lot of that. Yeah. And then when you turn it off and it's still there, that eliminates a lot of that. Right? So now you really are scratching your head like, what is happening here? And that's where we're at. Like, what is happening here? Is there anything Is there anything that they can hang their hat on as far as being skeptical about this actually happening or being able to explain it away through prosaic physics forces that are known?

1:02:30I mean, I think if you look at every single experiment, you can say, well, this might be fake because of this. I say, okay, we'll put it over here. Oh, well, now it's maybe fake because of this. Okay, we'll put it over here. So show me a rock. What about this? Okay, now do this, do that. Is there anything left is what I'm trying to ask you. I don't think so. If you had to stress test your own. If there is, it's something quite exotic that I have no idea what it would be. I don't know what else it would be. It's shown itself over and over again. How many variations of this experiment do you think you've tried sequentially from 2010 until today?

1:03:03Well, since Drew and I, we've been keeping track, we are close to 2 ,000. Oh, my God. 2 ,000 instances of the experiment or 2 ,000 variations? 2 ,000 variations. Holy shit. 2 ,000 test articles. Each one is tested multiple times. Whoa. Folders of folders. Has anybody come in, thoroughly examined your experiment, and come out skeptical? Or has everybody that's thoroughly examined it come out saying, there's something here? I would say the latter for sure. There's something there. You cannot think of one person who is still like, I spent, you know, a day plus with the team and I still, you know, think I can explain it with some other, you know, force.

1:03:50I haven't come across anyone. Or with some conventional force. I can't really think of anyone. Granted, there's not been that many people have seen it, you know, a couple dozen or so, but, um, but I don't think so. So, you know, what's really cool, though, is some people have called me up and say, you know, I represent an investor. You know, I would like to, the investor would like to, you know, invest into your company or whatever. I said, OK, well, you have to do is you have to fly down. You have to see it, put your hands on it. And usually that's the kind of the routine. He's like, oh, I don't need to do that.

1:04:23What do you mean? I already built one in my garage. I got one millineuton. You showed us how to do it. So I just did it. Wow. So it's been the opposite. The people have been very taken into this and they're very excited about it. That's amazing. So the people with the no can do it. And the people that have seen it, I just don't know if they know what they're seeing, but they definitely like it. And they're probably not good enough to vet it, I would say, because vetting it would take a lot more work. And I think it would take a lot more expertise. we haven't had too many other than Dr. Clements and there's other physicists that have seen it that have said anything negative about it we haven't seen any that have said it negative but we haven't seen, it hasn't been exposed to the entire scientific community either I think in this field it's hard to find who are those people who would be interested in it my hope is, one thing I did want to mention I think everybody should be interested in it well I think so You know, my, when we are hosting the Electrostatic Society of America conference this year, my lab is, that's in Cocoa Beach, Florida.

1:05:36And I will do a live demo of this. When is this? There, in June. Can I come and film? You can. Ah, that'd be amazing. Let's go. I'm so excited. The Electrostatic Society of America is just a happy, it's called the Friendly Society. Cool. And this is an electrostatic phenomenon. So I'm going to highlight how electrostatics is so necessary for space. And propulsion is one of the things I think it could help for sure. So I'm going to mention that. Why don't you submit this to peer review and try to get it kind of academically checked off? I'm trying. Okay. It's just a very busy person. Yeah, you're busy, but I want to see this de-stigmatized.

1:06:14No, I do too. But, you know, there's the path. Right now we're focused on getting the company started so we get some funding to really get the forces up. That's our main focus. Yeah. The peer review and all of that's going to take 20 years. So I'm starting that. I don't know if it'll take 20 years. Maybe 30. What? It just will. It just will. It's too different. Because of the antibodies. Yes. This field's been poisoned multiple times for a century. You know, I would say that. And then I think people are becoming more and more open to these sorts of effects. Are you familiar with Sonny White? Sure.

1:06:51So, you know, he's another NASA guy, NASA Eagle Works. And he is kind of similar to you where, you know, he has this kind of pretty credentialed, impressive background. And he's claiming to 1.5 kilovolts, you know, powering up a little microchip based on the Casimir effect. And the Casimir effect is this long, legendary kind of anomalous effect that if you were to walk into elite physics, you know, departments, I don't think you'd get too many people denying the effect itself. But it's essentially two not charged but conductive plates. And it seems like there's some sort of maybe quantum vacuum fluctuation thing going on between them.

1:07:34And the plates attract in this sort of anomalous, interesting way. And he's claiming to be able to tap into that, which is, I hate the word zero point energy. The term, you know, is so quacky, but it is that. And so you have that, you have Beatrice Villareal. I don't know if you're familiar with her and I don't know if you're into UFO stuff. I don't want to muddy the waters too much, but she's at Stockholm University and she's, you know, again, like traditional astrophysics credentials, really impressive, you know, astronomer. and she went back and looked at these plates from the Palomar Observatory, which was the most in-use observatory in the late 40s and early 50s.

1:08:18And she looked at the plates from 49 to 57, so pre-Sputnik, and she found all these transients, these light-reflecting objects that are flat and mirror-like and seem to exist somewhere, probably in geostationary orbit, so kind of like outer, you know, Earth orbit. And these short flashes and not streaks, they're associated with things that are extremely flat and extremely reflective. Wow. Like mirrors. And that makes it more fun. Like mirrors. And they're exactly how all the early CIA documents would describe UFOs. And they show up 68 % more around nuclear detonations, which is we know UFOs are kind of attracted to nukes.

1:09:00out of those 2 ,700 days, if there's no nuclear test, there's a transient on 11 % of those days. But if there's been a nuclear test the day before, then it's almost 19 % of those days have a transient. So that 11 versus 19 is about a 68 % increase in risk for a transient if you've had a nuclear test. And she got that passed through peer review. So I don't know. I think the world is opening up to this stuff. And my hope is that, uh, 30 years is, is a way overestimate. And I hear you. I mean, academia is totally close minded and dogmatic, but I think maybe sometimes you just have to walk through the front door, you know, you just have to like knock and they'll let you in.

1:09:48Well, I'm going to, I'm going to be the front door. I'm going to, I'm going to be the house that land. I love that. You know, peer review in a paper, the physics people are going to debate for decades. Sure. I like having the website and drew and having videos how to make the things. Go ahead and make them. Yeah. You don't believe me. Go ahead and make them in the garage. Yeah. Yeah. This has been very helpful. So people have done this. So you'll do this like you have like these DIY videos where it's like, go do this at home. Yeah. Whoa. And where are these videos? They're on our website. Oh, wow.

1:10:17And where is that? Is that exodusspace.com or what? Exoduspropulsion.space. Exoduspropulsion.space. Okay, check that out. And you've shown your experiments with all of the configurations that would... Not all of them. Okay. We have to keep some stuff quiet. Okay, cool. So are you doing like lateral propeller experiments or are you doing things that involve like lifting objects? We're not lifting objects yet in Earth's gravity. Okay. We're measuring the forces of these objects. Yeah. And seeing how much their force can lift as compared to Earth's gravity. Got it. So we do have thrusters that are theoretically capable to lift themselves up.

1:11:01The problem is all of the hardware that goes with it, the voltages and the powers and the wires and the framing and all that other stuff is not there yet. So you have to, it's like saying your car engine can lift the engine, can move the engine down the street, but no tires and no frames. And it's not very useful. But for right now, for what we have for lunar applications, space applications, it's awesome. It would be fantastic. That's amazing. So in microgravity or no gravity environments, you'll get a ton of thrust. Sure. That's amazing. And you're seeing weight reduction. Is that right? Well, we were saying that, yeah, the weight reduction would be something we're seeing, not mass reduction.

1:11:42Be careful. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I know that gets thrown around in UFO world all the time. You're like, wait, you're reducing the mass of the thing? It's definitely not negative mass. Yeah, yeah, yeah, right. But, yeah, so we do those tests. We have videos. I can share some with you. Please. Where we put stuff on a scale and we turn it on. It gets lighter. You flip it over. It gets heavier. We are going through a peer review. Okay, amazing. For our second patent. Oh, cool. So the examiner's office is doing a thorough peer review. They're the ones going down that path. Okay, great. Which is apparently equivalent to a scientific peer review.

1:12:17So that's what I've been told. Amazing. So they're reaching out to people that have done it, reaching out to people who have signed affidavits to say, yes, I've seen it. Yes, I've reproduced it, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So they're going through that process now. What inspired you to pursue kind of more exotic propulsion to begin with? Did you have any childhood experiences around this sort of stuff? Yes. Yes, I did. I've always had a fascination with UFOs. And I think it's been around a long time. Just, you know, strange phenomena. But I think it really hit home. I think I was 11 or 12 when we worked our haunted house.

1:12:53My dad would make haunted houses in our garage in New York. Really? What does that even mean? Make haunted houses in your garage? built a haunted house for the hotel that he worked at a giant holiday inn i think it was or hilton in uh connecticut and it was a massive haunted house and his job was to build the whole darn thing so he liked that so the next year we did it at our house and we charged people like 50 cents to get in and go through the haunted house and it was probably i think it was a nine by eleven single car garage haunted house. And we made$1 ,100. So many people showed up. It was crazy.

1:13:32It was a lot of fun. But, you know, we had a haunted house and it would go on for several weeks. One night while I was there working it, a whole bunch of cars came into the driveway. And I recognized one of the kids getting out of the car. He said, Charlie, go look, look at that. and he shows me, you know, we look up and there's these six bright white lights at the top of the trees, just hanging over the trees, just going over the road, just not moving very fast, just hanging, hanging out in formation. No sound, no wind, no nothing. And all these cars were following these lights for several days.

1:14:08This happened over the course of several days. Was this like a famous UFO wave or flap or something? It was. It was in the papers and all that jazz. Southeast New York in the mid 80s. It was a lot of fun. You know, I thought that was pretty cool. So I kind of like geared my career towards trying to understand some of that stuff. I just wanted to know what the heck that was. And it got me interested in physics, I think, and science in general. I was always interested in science. Did they look like orbs or were they part of a formation or do you think they were part of the same craft? I think they were different craft.

1:14:43I think they were just separate crafts. Wow. I didn't see a solid object or anything. And so this was for days at a time. Well, they would come every night. They'd come back and they'd be different parts of the city. I don't know what the heck they were doing or why they were there, but it was pretty cool, pretty wild. This was about the same time where somebody said they saw the Men in Black, which I thought was hysterical. Wild. Because I was, you know, we were trick-or-treating out with my friends and we ran into another group of friends. and that group of friends said, hey, these two weird guys showed up in these 1920s outfits.

1:15:20And they said, you know, if you see something weird, they said, just close your eyes and tell it to land. Do you guys know what the heck that means? I knew what it was. I said, where are these guys? They're right over there. So we went running to go look for them, but I didn't find anybody. But you knew of the men in black. I knew the phenomena. No one knew where the men in black were in the 1980s, early 80s. I don't think that was a thing, But I like to study that stuff. So I knew who that was or what that was. That's fascinating. So I thought, oh, this is cool. How can we learn more about this UFO flap?

1:15:52Does it have kind of a name that it's been kind of preserved by? Or is there a way to search it? You could just look at Brewster, New York. Brewster, New York. Okay. Probably 86 or 85, somewhere in that range. Wild. Newspapers and television almost weekly carried reports of the sightings. from different places throughout the area eyewitnesses all reported seeing the same thing i looked up and right over my head virtually it wasn't far off it was right over my head and very still uh it was a room of lights in the shape of a triangle it was just a tremendous object it was anywhere from wingtip to wingtip about four uh 50 or 60 yards these were very very unusual lights I've never seen anything like it in my life.

1:16:39And so I pulled my car over and I had to take a look. But it was in the paper. I remember that because it lasted several days. And you hinted to me that you had an even more surreal experience. Yeah, that was not a surreal experience. That was just me seeing some lights. Surreal for many people. Just lights. It was lights, but yeah. I had a more intense experience, I would say, many years later. um my wife and i experienced this and uh this was it was a pretty cool event now that it's over a little terrifying at the time but uh we we live in coco beach so we went out to the beach one night i would say 9 30 10 o 'clock at night and um we're the only ones there it's not uncommon though back then.

1:17:26This is maybe 10 years ago. And maybe 12 years ago. So we live close to the Patrick Air Force Base, which is south of us. And so out on the ocean, maybe about three miles outside, south of us in the ocean, I would say about three miles. We could kind of gauge how far things are apart because we're used to all the rivers and they're all three miles wide. So this is about three miles out of the ocean. We see a red light, just a beacon, just bleeping. No big deal. It's just a boat. Thousands of boats. But not that night. There are now thousands of boats. And it gets brighter. And it gets brighter.

1:18:06We're like, man, that's getting kind of bright. What is that? You know, beacons don't get that bright. So it's got to be a boat. Maybe someone's in trouble. And then it gets really bright. And then it explodes. So we see this giant, I don't want to say mushroom cloud, but it got very, very bright. so bright it lit up the whole beach as far as the eye can see for you know all the way from cape canaveral all the way down and i said my god what the heck happened there my wife and i were like that's crazy clearly someone's going to call the police and tell them that a boat exploded you know we're on the beach we didn't have phones or anything at the time like what the heck is that so i would say five minutes later wasn't that long 10 minutes we see one of the helicopters from the Air Force base go out to it.

1:18:57So they get up and they fly over it. And they hover right over it. It's still blinking. It's not exploding. It's still there. Still blinking. Just a nice pace. Bling, bling, bling. Helicopter hangs over it, looks at it. Doesn't do anything. Goes all the way back. So like, well, are they going to help the people? Are they going to rescue them? Or are they going to do any of that? Nothing. That is so weird. That's when it got fun. so now as we're watching this thing it's about 10 15 20 minutes into it it gets closer still bring still blinking it's getting closer it's leaving it's moving and then i guess within a mile so it's up three miles it's two miles it's about a half a mile and then somewhere at i think about a half a mile it's not one light anymore it's split into six and it's not just getting bright.

1:19:53These orange pinkish lights split and then they started rotating and they just started rotating like bicycle spokes on a wheel and they kept getting closer and they would go under the water and come back out under the water, come back out under the water, come back out like this is really weird and they got closer to us. So when it got about a quarter mile or maybe a thousand yards out We're like, okay, we're going to walk up the beach now. That's been fun. That's a little bit too close. It kept following us. It got closer. It got closer. It got brighter. It got brighter. And I think it was about when they got about, I wouldn't even be exaggerating if I said 50 yards.

1:20:34What? That close. I started getting a little scared. And I know she was getting scared. then after about 40 minutes of looking at these lights and trying to run from them but not full out sprint but kind of just walking super fast like 12 blocks it went out when you need to build up your team to handle the growing chaos at work use indeed sponsor jobs it gives your job post the boost it needs to be seen and helps reach people with the right skills certifications and more. Spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Listeners of this show will get a$75 sponsored job credit at indeed.com slash podcast.

1:21:18That's indeed.com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need a hiring hero? This is a job for Indeed sponsored jobs. And then we walked home. And it was terrifying, but it was not super scary, but it was scary enough. Because I didn't know what the heck that was. That's wild. What year was this? Probably 2013. Okay. Somewhere in there. So you had already started your work on the more exotic propulsion stuff. Probably, yeah. A couple years in by then, for sure. That's fascinating. It's so interesting. So you saw this thing out in the distance, and then it started to loop in and out of the water.

1:22:02and then approach you and it got to like 50 yards ish away. Yeah, it got really close. Could you make out - Beyond the waves, like where the waves started. Did it still look like this amorphous light at 50 yards or could you make out the structure? There's no, I couldn't see a structure. Just six or seven lights going in a pattern, faster, slower, faster, slower, in and out of the water, like the water wasn't there. And just, it was responding to us. Really? why so why because that's a common thing for people to say who've had ufo experiences just if we went up it went up if we went faster it went faster it was mirroring it was mirroring us did you get any sort of consciousness download or feel mentally locked in with it or anything like that no no i don't think so these lights are kind of common over there if you if you study these these type of lights because we live near a cruise ship the port so you see a lot of videos online with these lights steven greer takes his his group down there to that same almost that same beach about about 40 minutes south to look at and you know kind of conjure up the lights so that and i have had other friends since then have the same experience or similar experience which i thought was super cool because he was out at the beach with his family and they saw it late at night, the only ones on the beach, they saw them too.

1:23:22This is like maybe seven, eight years later. So it's pretty weird stuff that's happened. What do you think this Patrick Air Force Base helicopter was doing? Do you think it was doing recon on this UFO? I have no idea. It's so interesting. The way it behaved, it was just like, oh, it's these darn lights again. It didn't act. But it looked like it was intentionally dispatched from Patrick Air Force Base. After that very large bright event, which was blinding to look at is how bright it was they addressed it and went out there and looked at it and still saw it there you know getting bright dim bright dim it was very bright still not blinding bright but it was very bright and it just that's good and just went back home do you ever get one step kookier and say why did this happen to me do you does it have something to do with the work that i'm pursuing you know i i don't think so it happened a lot of people have seen these things you know these lights they follow cruise ships and boats there's a lot of weird videos of it so they're probably just chasing people yeah if i had a guess i don't think i'm anything special you're just following people well i might follow the person who's working on interstellar propulsion a little more disproportionately um did you know that thomas townsend brown had a very similar experience catalina island and a little orb light approached him literally came up to him.

1:24:45Townsend Brown had a UFO experience in Catalina as a teenager. Is that right? Yes. And I know the exact spot he was where he was standing. I used to ride my horse up that ridge. It approached him. It actually approached him. And he said that he learned so much standing there with that ball of light that he went Back to his, which at the time was, he had a lab in Pasadena. It was funded by his parents. So he had his own private lab, and he said he went to work immediately. And he worked, that was the beginning of his life's work. And he said that everything that he ever learned about his work, he learned instantly.

1:25:39Wow. Wow. So you guys, that's so fascinating. I wish I got a download. I've been 10 years further ahead. Yeah. Maybe you've gotten a lot of downloads and you just don't know it. You know, it's always interesting how, you know, science is treated like, oh, it's you're just figuring this out. Like you figure out the last, you know, term of an equation on a chalkboard or something. And often if you were to probe the scientist in many cases, I don't know if this comports with your experience. it's far more like revelation. It's like, ah, it just hit me. You know, it's Dirac. We were talking about Dirac.

1:26:14Dirac, you know, staring at the fire in Cambridge and just downloading the Dirac equation or Heisenberg at Algoland, you know, figuring out quantum leaps and, you know, probability matrices or whatever around, you know, electron shells. And so this is a very common experience. I don't know if you've ever had anything like that. I would say, yeah, some of the math It's just very discreet. Oh, we'll try this and big leap there. And then months go by. Oh, I'll do try this. Oh yeah, that works better. That makes more sense. Whether it's experimental or theoretical. Yeah, it doesn't, it's not a super gradual thing.

1:26:50It does have, you know, step functions to it for sure. I don't think if you put one of these debunker types, like Michael Shermer or, you know, Neil deGrasse Tyson, I don't think if they were in front of either of you, they would be able to beat you in an argument. Well, the argument to have to anyone is just go try it. Go try it. Yeah. Seriously, don't take my word for it. Yes. Go build this thing in your garage. I think they'd be too arrogant to show up. But I think if Neil deGrasse Tyson were in a room with your experiment, I don't think he could explain it. And that seems like a really important fact that you have one side that's like showing an effect.

1:27:24You have 2000 iterations of that effect. You are an expert in this field. You've contributed two, you know, really important things to the field itself that are conventionally now, you know, accepted. And you say you're getting an effect. And then you have somebody else who's just smugly dismissing it. Like, I'm going to go with you over the smugness missile. Well, you know, that's how science works. You know, it is inherently skeptical. Yeah. You've got to understand everything, the theory, the modeling, the experiment. So I expect it. This is why I didn't go the peer review route per se. I went the other peer review route, which is through the patent office.

1:28:02It's a good, that's a good attitude to have. And yeah, the patent office, there you go. It's smart. Yeah. Just, just make money off it. Just commercialize it. Just, you know, let's just do that. And if they're wrong, you win in the free market and yeah, yeah, no, totally. So it's still peer reviewed. The examiner's office is peer reviewing it. So yeah. But in the meantime, I'll, I'll just keep building away. Keep talking away. Having said that, I like, you know, Thomas Kuhn talks about, you know, in the structure of scientific revolutions, how science moves more around politics than it does truth.

1:28:35And I do think the fact that you lead electrostatics at NASA is this really important thing. There is the kind of, you know, patent, you know, commercial route that you can take. You can just do the kind of startup thing and just win on your own. And then there's another part of me where I'm like, you know, Niels Bohr didn't create the first semiconductor company. And, you know, if you really are, you know, contributing to fundamental physics in the form of this new force, I like that you're coming on this show and that you have videos and you're telling people to do it at home because it's hard to know where that even leads.

1:29:16And I hope you know that. And so I do think you just letting this out in a public way, I think also will amount to a Cambrian explosion of people working on new cool ideas. And I think the more you let it out, the more you become a lighthouse for like you kind of did it first. And the other high agency people who do other variations of what you're doing will come to you. And so I think it's this flywheel where I do think being public about it is really the right thing. Because God forbid, I mean, you have like all these other scientists that spend like their lives in secrecy. And then sometimes they, you know, the frameworks that they've helped establish just kind of go away and they're still stigmatized to this day.

1:30:00Townsend Brown being a great example. I agree with that. And I think getting it out there, letting people see it, this is something that's just too important to be bottled up completely. Yeah. Let's be fair. This is a new force. It's just what it is. Whether it's a gravitational force or some other quantum mechanical effect, it's too important to just say, no, no, no, I'm going to work on it until I'm done. Then I'll let you see it at the end. That's not what this should be. Yeah. You know, we need this. Yeah. We need it. We need it now. You know, we say we have an energy crisis. Oh, my God, the energy crisis.

1:30:35Well, it could be considered an energy crisis, but it's really a force crisis. It's a transportation crisis. How do you get an object from here to here? That is the real problem. Absolutely. And we've been flying with Boeing 747s or equivalents, you know, for the last 60 years. It's just crazy. We've seen total stagnation in the world of transportation. And so. So the world needs this. The world absolutely needs this. If I can help, I will. Well, I love that attitude. That's awesome. You mentioned a patent, a second patent. Your first patent, there was a national security hold on it. Is that right?

1:31:14We don't know. Okay. But it's possible. What does that even mean? Some patents apparently go through the Department of Defense before they're released, depending on the nature of the patent. And some never see the light of day, right? There's the Invention Secrecy Act of 1952. Yeah, I believe that was one of the risks that we were aware of. Fascinating. So this is the weird thing about these sorts of experiments. There is so much smoke, not only from you. I know a lot of engineers who've worked at aerospace corporations, Lockheed, Northrop, those sorts of companies. And they give you a little wink, wink, nudge, nudge.

1:31:56They often can't say that there's anything to the Byfield-Brown experiment. But, you know, it's often you're on the right path, buddy. And there's weird things happen with high, you know, electric field strengths at short distances and with, you know, big gradients or, you know, asymmetry, you know, that often that always comes up. and it is, there's something going on. Am I wrong to say this? Because look, a lot of the physics is above my pay grade, but there is just an overwhelming amount of circumstantial evidence that there's a there there here. It seems like that. Have you met others who've probably converged across the same force that you have?

1:32:39They've kind of stumbled onto it. I have to think about that. I can't think of anyone off the top of my head. but it's possible. To be fair, I haven't done that much research on the electrogravitics and all those folks. I've started reading some of the books and there are a lot of books on this stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, there are tons of these books. And everyone has a theory and I just try to have to sift through that to see where are the experiments. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because, you know, the old adage is everyone has a theory but no one believes the theory. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But the experimenter doesn't believe his own experiments but everyone believes the experiments.

1:33:14But if you look at how science gets pushed forward, to me, the experimental physics is a bigger tell. The theory is like a prison or something. And so I never like, you know, this can't work because theory. Like, I think it's this worked and we have to explain it with a new theory. And it's like the Casimir effect or like some of the, maybe the Casimir effect makes sense in quantum electrodynamics. I don't know. But there are a lot of these, you know, what's a good example? Like black body radiation in the 1860s with Gustav Kirchhoff. It was, should have produced this ultraviolet catastrophe and it didn't.

1:33:49And it was because of, you know, quanta, which Planck discovered 40 years later. and so there are a lot of these sorts of examples and you can't say the anomaly isn't right because of the theory and there's just so much anecdotal evidence around this anomaly working yeah i think there are examples i gave some of those in the apex some of the examples of what this how this force might manifest you don't even know that you're seeing it like momentum anomalies for spacecraft when they go around the earth and they get to the van allen belt they either speed up or they slow down just by going through the, picking up charge as they go through the Van Allen belts, which doesn't make a lot of sense.

1:34:28So they have to actually add extra fuel to spacecraft to account for that. They don't know where it comes from. That's fascinating. So there's all kinds of things like that. So those momentum anomalies are possibly attributable to this force. I think so. It's possible. And you're calling this the Exodus force and your company is Exodus space. That's right. Okay. The force is really two forces. There's a surface force and a volume force. We call the surface force, that's actually electrostatic pressure force, just because it comes from electrostatic pressure. And then we have a divergence in the E field force for the volume element, because the integral has a surface and a volume component.

1:35:06At least the classical version, which is not truly correct. It's close, but it's obviously, you can't explain this force, I think, in classical mechanics. you have to use quantum but at least the classical kind of steers you in the right direction because you can actually build something on that to test it but to be fair it has to be a quantum mechanical effect it's not a classical effect what we're seeing which has always always been known why are you sure it's not a classical effect well for one we're not conserving energy in the in the classical world. You know, if we put something on the scale and we turn it off, it should go off.

1:35:49Because the fields are intact, the force remains. So now we're dealing with something else, just like the Chasmir effect. It's dealing with something else. You don't need power for the Chasmir effect. You can just put two plates in space and they will attract. You do not need to add power for that. It is an artifact of the structure of the vacuum. this might be another similar thing just in a different light and um you know in the towns and brown experiments involving electro govitics they were capacitor experiments so you had a negative electrode you had a positive electrode you had a high k dielectric in between them the high k factor which is the ability to store and discharge easily a lot of you know high electric fields was this really important factor for determining the thrust in the experiment.

1:36:38Does that make sense in the context of your experiment? Sure. Okay. So usually if you have a high capacitance, you can store more charge, right? Some more charge in my energy. But we have to look at, you know, we look at all the capacitances, not just the capacitance between the two plates. We look at the fields and how you can strengthen the fields. sometimes high capacitance or high k values high dielectric constants can lower the fields so you want a high field depending on where you're where you want the thrust to be so you can tailor some of that with capacitance just like towns and pround did but it is a field effect so those are the things those are some of the knobs you have you have a lot of knobs you have geometry knobs capacitance knobs voltage knobs you have a lot of things that we can do.

1:37:28But how you could explain this force classically, I don't really know, at least with the conservation of energy stuff. Is the, you know, Brown would use DC pulsing and like, you know, kind of high climb rates of the voltage so that the voltage would, there'd be a steep climb rate where it would, you know, increase very, very sharply. Is that also consistent with your theory or? I don't really know. I mean, we try to stay away from the AC stuff or the very high slew rate stuff if we can yeah damages to the plastics or damages the metals damages the materials too many too much current um we haven't explored all of the different ways to actually enact it we're still exploring the dc versions we haven't explored all the different ways you can apply different voltages and different currents to it which is something we have a lot of room in the future to improve upon but we're doing so many variations with all the other parameters we don't really need to change the slew rates too much yet.

1:38:28Do you take issue with the term anti-gravity or? I don't like anti-gravity. Okay. Well, because that is, that would be like an opposite of gravity force. Yeah. Or the, you know, like the electrogravitics, it's very pretentious to say that we're messing with gravity. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Even Drew calls us warp drive. I'm not there yet. You know, I'm not, I'm not there yet with the bending of space time. Yeah. There are experiments to check that. You can use interferometry or something like that and i believe the apex folks are looking into that so we'll see what they find but um i don't know if we need to i don't think i'm betting space time with my my 2 000 volts and you know plates and wires and needles i don't think i am yeah i am but i don't think i am but you do think you've discovered an inroad towards a propulsion mechanism that That can get us into kind of interstellar travel and actually deep space travel, which that's amazing.

1:39:25Yes. But I don't know if I'm bending gravity for that or not. Sure. I don't want to go there yet. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Fair enough. You know, because if that's the case, then you'll go down other paths, other rabbit holes that I don't want to go down. Like, oh, well, then you can make a teleportation device or a wormhole or this or all that other stuff. Yeah. Yeah. I don't, I don't, I'm not ready for going down those paths yet either. Have you looked into any of the other kind of exotic physics world work, people like Ning Li or other people who've claimed kind of weight reduction? Have you heard of that?

1:39:57There's a story about this Chinese scientist that was working on anti-gravity and then vanished. Yeah, real excited about the spinning superconductor stuff. Yeah. Because, you know, my PhD is in high temperature superconductivity. Yeah. And I was like, oh, maybe that's a way to shield gravity, something like that. And then someone else, I think NASA reproduced it and they couldn't, didn't see the effect. So I never did anything with it. It's a very expensive experiment to do. Yeah. It's something very large, superconductor and spinning it. Superconductors are not cheap. Yeah. They weren't in the 90s.

1:40:36But I, I, I don't know. I haven't seen anything that's definitive. Yeah. This is Guy Pokletinov at the University of Tampere in Finland who claims weight reduction based on spinning superconductors. And I believe there might be a connection between him and Viktor Schauberger, this like World War II Nazi. I guess he was in Austria. I don't want to call him a Nazi. He was just like a hapless scientist. But he had this whole model for spinning superconductivity. And I believe, um, uh, Pakletinov's father was like, uh, like Stassi guy who was doing tech retrieval for the Soviets. And so, you know, I think there's some sort of lineage there.

1:41:18Nick Cook, uh, describes this as in his amazing book, Hunt for Zero Point. And, um, and then you have Ning Li popping up in the early 2000s. It's a great book, right? I love that book, yeah. Yeah, it's awesome. And then Ning Li has, uh, yeah, he's amazing. By the way, everybody should read that book. Nick Cook is a hardheaded aviation journalist at Gene's Defense Weekly in the UK. And he just stumbles on to all this gravity research in the 50s and then realizes it just vanishes and goes nowhere. And he looks through the entire lineage and he comes to the very interesting conclusion that there's so much smoke, there probably has to be some fire, but like never kind of finds a smoking gun, never knows exactly, you know, what the there there is.

1:42:02but it's fascinating. It is. Eventually he's like somewhere in America it has something to do with Zero Point. That's right. That's right. And that's where he ended it. Do you think that in the black we've discovered some of this stuff? I honestly don't know. I don't know. I just don't know. Has the DOD ever reached out to you? I guess the Department of War now or the Pentagon or DARPA have any of these organizations reached out to you? No. It's so strange. It's very sad. I was hoping to be, you know, taken away and work on some weird UFO project in the basement. I know. Well, I mean. Hasn't happened.

1:42:38I mean, if anybody should, you know, deserves it. It's just, it's so weird. It's like, it's like they already know and are miles ahead and they're sort of gaslighting and waiting for us to catch up or they're brain dead. And it's just bureaucracy. And I don't know if you lean on either side. I don't really know. Like your last interview pointed out how few physicists there were for the retrieval program. This can't add up. It's a two-line proof. It defies the laws of physics. We haven't made progress. We have no physicists. You know, I thought that was very interesting because my wife and I were approached to help with the UAP.

1:43:18NASA was doing their own UAP thing. And they finished one report and then there was a second one, a second follow-on. Really? um i forget the name of the gentleman who reached out to us and yeah we're doing this investigation again i'd really like your help i said oh okay just put me in with all the physicists oh there are no physicists what do you mean there's no physicists why am i the only physicist you know um and it's an instruments group so they're they have advanced instruments to try to capture these sensors sensors or something i'm not you know quite familiar with so i don't really have time to join that group but i was shocked by that too like why are there no physicist here.

1:43:55Maybe I'm missing something. It's very bizarre. Yeah. I was like, you would think there would be only physicists. That was one of the most bizarre conversations I've ever been a part of. I had to watch that twice. I was like, are you serious? Yeah. Why would there not be any physicists? I don't know. Either again, they figured it out and they are sort of gaslighting us, or they have this limited hangout strategy where some of the more popular physics frameworks, like you hit certain areas of it and then you get sucked up. or it's brain dead. Or the UFO stuff is so weird and consciousness-based that our physics is so clearly kind of not equipped to deal with it that it's, like, futile to even deal with physicists.

1:44:39I don't know. I don't know. But it was weird. You didn't see my Gary McKinnon interview, did you? I was just a guy, normal guy, interested in UFOs, happened to have some IT skills, nothing genius level. You hacked into the Army, the Navy, the Air Force, the Department of Defense and NASA. Do you know who that is? The name sounds familiar. So this is a guy who, he lives in the UK. He was, in 2001, he was like in his girlfriend's aunt's basement at 4 a.m. smoking weed, had some IT skills because he worked with a bank, and was a UFO nut, obsessed with UFOs. And so did some like basic blank password phishing techniques to essentially hack into NASA, Navy, Army, CIA, DIA, like every elite.

1:45:32Is it the guy that's still trapped over there? He's still there. Yeah, because there's a live arrest warrant out for him now. Theresa May, former prime minister of the UK, has finally given him kind of, you know, safe harbor or whatever. So he's there. But he can't, he's not allowed in the US. He's on the Interpol red list. And he specifically queried when he was, when he got in, he was like, oh my God, I'm in. And then he queried the Johnson Space Center because there was a UFO whistleblower named Donna Hare who worked there, who saw basically images of UFOs being airbrushed out in a specific building, Building 8 there.

1:46:12And so he looked in and he saw a Tic Tac object floating around the Earth, like in Earth's orbit. And the hemisphere comes into view and it's very blocky, but it's kind of blue and white. So I'm thinking, well, it must be Earth. And then suddenly there's a big, straight kind of silvery line that is coming down. Then that's, I guess, what they now call a tic-tac, but it's what we used to call cigar-shaped object. And this was in the early 2000s before David Fravor's sighting at Nimitz. Super wild and interesting. And then, so for our purposes, why I think this was an interesting conversation, is he then stumbles upon a list of non-terrestrial officers, of which there are 40.

1:46:56and it was very strange right because as of now if you look at you know any of the you know uh chat gbt anthropic any of these things it'll tell you that we have like roughly 10 people in space like globally and so 40 people in space that's strange right and it's the names of these 40 people non-terrestrial officers fleet to fleet transfers of these specific materials and a lot of the materials are high K dielectrics and they're, they seem like these thinly layered materials. And then there was like this one material, I think it's like mold, mold, dinium, I'm molybdenum. Yeah. Molybdenum. And molybdenum is good for like alloying.

1:47:41And so we came to the crazy conclusion on the spot that maybe there is a microgravity, space supply chain for materials, for these high-K dielectrics, which ironically, those high-K dielectrics work well for these experiments, for these, you know, again, the quacky word is antigravity experiments, for these experiments showing this other force. Okay, so there's like a space supply chain where humans are manufacturing these exotic materials in space that you literally couldn't make. Yeah, physically impossible on Earth. On Earth, yes. Yeah. That's fascinating. I don't think, has anybody ever explicitly tied together your thing like this, like we're doing now?

1:48:27No, this is fresh and unique. I love this. And there are commercial companies trying this right now. So for anybody who thinks we're crazy, like that's a thing. And then what would you do it with first in kind of a more, you know, like covert setting? You would do it on things that are of extremely high value. and you know if you if you produce materials in microgravity you know the uh kind of signal the noise is much better you know there's less you know dust and interference issues and so you could do things like you know atomic layering you know way easier and so i wonder if there's something like that that then works into some of these experiments being done i don't know if you have a take on that there's a lot there yeah i mean yeah i mean we're working with high k dielectrics and yeah layering materials and different things but i've not heard of anything going on in space manufacturing for that okay not on my end okay but um it'd be very interesting yeah space manufacturing is something nasa is trying to get more and more involved in yeah because of the some of the reasons you mentioned um but i'm not heard of any spacecraft being manufactured in space i have to ask you while i have you what's your best argument for the moon landing hoax people um i would say that the uh the lasers that are beaming back to earth or you can beam a there's reflectors we just put a new one on from firefly you can send a laser it'll come back so that's been there since the apollo days but you could put a photo reflector up there with a rover, theoretically.

1:50:06So it's not super concrete evidence. That's not super concrete, but, you know, we do have a lot of the Apollo samples. I have 200 grams or so in my lab. You have some moon rocks? Not the rocks, the dust. The rocks are given out to different countries and stuff. JC probably still has some rocks. I don't have any rocks. Okay. It's vastly different than the simulants that we play with. Yeah. It's got a very high angle of repose. Yeah. So basically you try to flip it over It doesn't want to flip over. It's very jagged. It's very different. It's interesting stuff. There's no doubt it's not weathered.

1:50:41It's not seen a lot of moisture, you know, those kinds of things. It's different stuff. Have there been any bad actors trying to kind of come in and debunk in like a bad faith way? I don't think so. Okay. I haven't seen any. Okay. um no most of the people are you know like the apex folks are out that are open they're open to everything how do you answer the question why has nobody done this yet i mean the the other answer to that question is they have and we just listed some of the people earlier who have actually pulled off the experiment but do you have a good answer as to why it takes a bunch of things to line up okay you have to have high voltage experience because these tests can be lethal right they have to be packaged up properly put into a faraday cage or you're going to get fake positives false positives to be attracted to walls or floors or ceilings you have to make sure you're not doing that you have to prevent the eye on wind which is very well known fun thing to make does give you some forces but they're not what we're interested in um so there's a lot of facets there.

1:51:52Then you have to have the technical savvy to, you know, show it in many different ways, pendulums, spinners, rotators, force measurements, scales, all of those things. And each one of those can be fooled. So you have to make sure that you are, do your due diligence and do not, you know, get any false positives, especially on the scales. Everything has to be shielded pretty darn well. Can I bring up another thing that I think limits our ability to do this? I think it's the amount of people who think it's possible that there is another force outside of the conventional forces. And so you need a hypothesis to get a positive result in certain cases.

1:52:32And I think if you are so dogmatically confined to very conventional physics, you would never even try this experiment, maybe. And so you have to have the imagination to realize that there might be a there there to even try it in the first place. that's right that's right you have to try to do something if you believe in it try to do it like i did with the field momentum the linear momentum i tried that for 15 20 years i failed but that doesn't mean i had to give up i was still seeing a force even in that even if it had nothing to do with that theory uh so you keep trying that's that's the best thing i can say you got to keep trying if you believe it if you keep trying maybe you'll see something here that's the case, I think.

1:53:20And you think that this vindicates the work of Thomas Townsend Brown, too. Maybe he didn't understand what he was dealing with in the way that you do, but if he says he understood the ion wind like he said he did, and he did things in oil, where you can't have ion wind, then he possibly came across it. He might not be the only one. People that play with high voltage asymmetrical capacity have been around a long time. So, it's entirely possible that they weren't all. Maybe Tesla. Maybe. I don't know if he did much asymmetry. He did a lot of energy stuff. Yeah. I don't know either, but there's actually, you mentioned transmission oil.

1:53:54There's a team in Japan. I believe they came out of Honda. And I think Musha is the scientist's name. And he claims they've submerged the capacitor in the transmission oil, which, you know, apparently doesn't ionize or at least ionize very well. And they claim some results and they kind of have gone silent, but like they never retracted those results. That paper's still out there. So there's so much of this. There's another group I'm working with in Germany who's reproducing this. So really? Yeah. So it's coming. It's amazing. Well, I'm really excited to get into you have a whole theory about how the thrust works in your Exodus experiments and it involves quantum electrodynamics.

1:54:37So I asked you if I could bring a friend of mine, David Chester, who is quantum electrodynamic specialist at the end of theoretical physicist. And so are you down to have a group conversation we should we can change sets and uh sweet all right so we have david chester here who's a friend of mine he uh got his undergrad at mit uh phd from ucla both in physics and is uh kind of specializes in general relativity as well as quantum field theory but i to me you are the guy who is the kind of intersection if you have kind of two circles in a Venn diagram of kind of smartest and best credentialed who will entertain all of the quacky stuff.

1:55:22And so we've had long conversations about a lot of this, you know, extended electrodynamics and some of these weird topological or experimental physics effects. And you really, I think, understand kind of the lay of the land as well as anybody. And I was speaking with you, Charles, about doing this interview and you were like, I'm developing this quantum electrodynamical theory of how this actually works. And I was like, I probably won't be able to say anything about that, but David will. So I'm really excited to have both of you. And maybe we start with you, Charles, if you could just kind of present what the theory is, and then you guys can kind of go back and forth.

1:56:05Sure. No, this is a good opportunity to talk to a real physicist about my, you know, my proposed explanation for the force that I'm seeing. So, um, I don't like to create stuff up. That's kind of one of my mantras. I don't want to do that. I want to use what's known in the physics community to see if it can explain what I'm seeing. I don't want to be one of those guys. I have to come up with a whole new theory. I don't think that's necessary. Um, so my approach was to say, what are the tools we have now to try to explain this? Can it be done within conventional physics that we know just maybe one other step further or something, you know, within the realm of what we already know.

1:56:44And we have a lot of tools in quantum electrodynamics. We have a lot of tools. So I started from what I have in my experiments, basically two charges. So I have a plus and a minus charge. So that's my starting point. I don't have anything else. Not as far as I know. If I'm bending space time or doing something silly, that's beyond my knowledge. But are there the tools available to understand the forces in just knowing what we know with QED with two charges? QED is very, very powerful. um i found an example of how qed can solve a very simple problem which can be easily solved with electrodynamics so let's make it infinitely more complicated with qed and that's what physicists do um it's because it's a more fundamental theory so i started with qed to explain coulomb's law force of attraction repulsion between two particles so that's very well explained with Coulomb's Law.

1:57:40But in the context of QED, I found a book that actually did this. In my grad school, we were not trained how to do that. It's not uncommon. There's a lot of very remedial physics problems that take two or three hours to solve that are not going to cover in a class. But I saw the QED version of it and I said, oh, this is very helpful. I know where it comes from. I know where the momentums come from. And then if you do the math appropriately, you'll get Coulomb's Law coming out of it. And Coulomb's Law, for people not familiar, can you describe it very basically? So basically it shows that if you have two particles, their force is related by one over the square of the distance away in relation to the charge, the charges that you have.

1:58:22Very simple, rudimentary physics. And it explains things like electron repulsion, two like forces repelling. It basically explains everything that we know about two particles, two charges. Just about everything, QED. Explains how atoms are bound together. Sure. Yeah. So I did not think we needed QCD, quantum chromodynamics, W particles, Z particles. I didn't think we needed that. We're not looking at the interactions between protons and neutrons. So we're not looking at the high energy realm. We're just looking at low energy Coulomb charges. That's it. And when you say you're explaining the Coulomb charge with quantum electrodynamics, how is it normally explained?

1:59:04usually you'll do you know maxwell's equations or something simple okay to derive coulomb's law it's not very complicated f equals qe right yeah so we know the electric field is point part point charge times q and maxwell's equations govern electromagnetism all of that 19th century that's right okay but what they don't tell you is how do these particles interact like what is causing them to repel or attract and what is the physical mechanism qed provides us a nice little solution qed says well thanks to quantum or a feyman and schwinger they are exchanging virtual particles so they're not real particles you can't see them you can't observe them but they're virtual so basically you can picture this is the cartoon that people use you have two ice skaters one of them is holding a bowling ball they the first one throws a bowling ball so they recoil The second person catches the bowling ball, so they fall back, except there's no bowling ball.

1:59:59So not a real one that you can see, but you can see the interaction between the two particles. And that's the Feynman diagram. And what you do is each time you write a Feynman diagram, each one of those lines in the Feynman diagram represent a different term. And you multiply them all up and you get what's called the scattering matrix element. And you can try to find how these things interact. In fact, if you were to take this particle A and shoot it at particle B, you could see where it deflects on a board somewhere if you actually measure that. That interaction is all described in that. QED, using QED to derive Coulomb's Law is very complicated.

2:00:33But I found a book that did it. So I copied that, looked at what they did. I said, OK, this is a good model. Let me just do one thing different. I don't have just Coulomb's Law. I have something else. So what I think it is and what I proposed now is what would happen if I just went to the next order? So quantum electrodynamics, the QED doing Coulomb's law is a second order equation on using time independent perturbation theory. Perturbation theory is the best tool that we have in physics. I think bar none perturbation theory. It's awesome. It's outstanding. It's Very powerful. What is perturbation theory?

2:01:17High level? High level. So high level, you can get the energy states or the states themselves using perturbations. Just change the thing. You change an energy state. You add that back in. You do another perturbation. You see how it changes with a small perturbation of the energy in this case or the states and involves. And there are many perturbations. So I'm using second order perturbation theory for that's the lowest perturbation. and I think the highest perturbation for two charges, Coulomb's law. And after that, I don't think anyone's done anything after that because you not only get a close answer, you get the exact answer.

2:01:52So I was like, why go further? You have two particles. They either attract or repel. That's Coulomb's law. Do you need to go further? So I'm like, well, this force that I've seen with Exodus, selectostatic pressure force, is much, much weaker than Coulomb's law. There's no doubt. much weaker. But I decided, well, let's try the third order. What does that give me? And when I tried it with my math, which may not be perfect, I'm sure, I was seeing three charges now. So basically one of the charges was weighed twice, multiplied by itself. And then the third order is being multiplied by the first charge.

2:02:33So there's already an asymmetry sort of in the charges, even with two charges, which I thought was useful because I wanted to try to get that with classical dynamics. You can't derive that from classical energy, three charges. But the QED was kind of nice to show that. So I looked at that and I said, okay, there's no longer four terms like there are in the second order. What would classical electrodynamics give you if not the three charges? So basically when you try to do conservation of energy, you start with a kinetic energy and a potential energy. And so for adding more charges to a system, you just keep adding more and more charges to a system.

2:03:08The superposition principle adds them all up it doesn't multiply them all up it adds them all up but i needed the addition i needed the the pressure that i'm creating working on the charges that i'm creating so i have a pressure on one side and charges from the other so i have a multiplication effect experimentally so i didn't know how to derive that other than quantum electrodynamics but classically it doesn't show that but i thought maybe qed might and it shows up there um but that was the first thing And the other thing, there were 12 terms now instead of four, because I'm scattering. So what happens in QED or time independent perturbation theory, you start from the zero of the state, the vacuum state, you scatter to the first state, then you go over the first state, you scatter to the second state, and go to the second state, scatter to the zero state.

2:03:55That's just how it works. There's a lot of scattering states and matrices that you have to solve for, and you multiply them together. So I have 12 terms now. Some of the terms are kind of interesting. It looks like that when you draw the diagrams from those states, that it looks like you get the same things you had in second order perturbation theory, where you have a little exchange of photon. The other ones will absorb it, vice versa. But there are some states that are a little weird. You'll have states where they'll just absorb or just emit. Kind of like the first order, which I didn't talk about.

2:04:33But the first order is basically just a charge with a field line. not feline, but with basically a charge with a scalar photon. So you have... There's four kinds of photons in QED. One of them is real. One of them is observable. The other three are not. Two of them are real. Two of them are real? I thought I read that only one of them was real. Well, you have plus and minus h-bar for two different spin states. Okay, well, that's cool. Two of them are real. If it was massive, it would be three, but since the photon's massless, you get two states. I mean, light is polarized. You can polarize it Okay, I didn't know if that applied to...

2:05:07Because I just remember the textbook saying one of them was real. I was like, okay. But anyway, so these are not real things. But in QED, you look at the vertices, and every time you draw a vertice, you conserve momentum at that point. So if a particle comes in, it's, you know, we use these silly fiber-ing diagrams. They're not Cartesian coordinates at all. But they're basically a momentum vector, and then the momentum changes. And when the momentum changes, another momentum is created or absorbed. And that's all it is. You can't think of it any more literal than that. um so that's what the that's what i should you know i see in third order third order are these vertices that are even giving out these scalar photons or absorbing them whatever these things are in reality is how these things seem to be conserving momentum if this model is correct so that's the difference between the third order and the second order at least what i found mathematically is that you don't absorb this you don't emit this scalar photon and absorb it in the same pairing with the two charges, there are cases where the two charges emit and don't absorb or absorb and don't emit.

2:06:20And what is a scalar photon as opposed to a photon? It's a mathematical photon. You can describe it better than I can, but it has many names, dark photons. And deals. Is it different? I think it is. Anyway, I think it's just, it's a mathematical term. Okay. It doesn't have the polarization that a real photon has, right? Yeah. Very different. Yeah. It's just a mathematical term that you put inside the matrices and you get the, I don't know how it works. So what are the scalar? It's a scalar. It's a scalar. It's no vector. Scalar, no vector. Yeah. So the idea of just emitting or absorbing these scalar photons in this third order perturbation, how does that allow for this effect that looks like this new force in electrostatics or it looks like anti-gravity or you know what you're kind of experiencing well what it shows is you have an imbalance and the system can be made to be imbalanced which is weird so because you're not enclosing i don't know what happens to these scalar photons where they go or i don't even know if they go anywhere they might terminate somewhere else in the universe i don't know e-fields don't do that they do terminate somewhere but uh it does you know show this weird kind of you know imparting into momentum into something that is already asymmetric so it's very odd so wherever you have these yeah wherever you have these i think um that's where the field is non-zero where these things exist where these things don't exist is where the field is zero so that's the difference and basically an electric field and super high level you end up with this kind of virtual particle transfer and due to conservation of momentum you end up with thrust i think so okay and what do you think david chester well first of all i want to commend you on your experimental efforts i think you're really brave with what you're doing and it's quite amazing how much data you guys have been collecting.

2:08:28However, I would just advise you to be a little careful with some of the theoretical claims you're making. First of all, it sounds like you're saying you can get a momentum, you're getting a kick in momentum in the center of mass frame. However, typically in QED, while momentum is conserved and you still have translational symmetry. So you're typically not able to get virtual photons to give radiation. That's the first thing. So it sounded like you were saying you believe that there's this scalar virtual photon that is getting radiated out. I see two issues with that. The first being, first of all I mean the scalar mode in QED is not physical second of all so you could say maybe there's some virtual stuff going on in that but the virtual particles typically refer to internal lines whereas in the Feynman diagrams whereas the you know the radiation are the external lines so you can't have a virtual radiation mode in qed so that seems to be so what is it what is the uh the equivalent i guess i mean i'm not exactly sure closed i don't know what's going i don't know the best way to describe your experiment if that's what you're getting at no i'm just trying to figure out like how would you draw the Feynman diagram for just a point charge and its field?

2:10:03Not the self-energy, but just the regular... Well, yeah. So if you think about what the electric field is, it's the force that you would get if you had a test charge located there. So you could imagine exactly as you're saying, it's a four-point tree-level scattering Feynman diagram where you have two electrons going in, two electrons going out, and you could have... It's a little subtle here because it's a classical phenomenon, but there is that internal line. And at first it becomes virtual, meaning it can have complex momentum that's off shell, but there's also momentum conservation, as you were saying.

2:10:39So when you do that Feynman diagram and you're integrating over the momentum, you get this delta function from momentum conservation, and that basically conserves momentum such that you get classical momentum that can be transferred from one electron to another and then they can get forced apart. And, you know, it's worth mentioning, you can also find the electric field in classical electrodynamics for as many charges as you want. It sounded, maybe I misheard you, but it sounded like you were saying you can't study things classically for three charges or something, but you certainly can't. Well, not multiply together.

2:11:16I think the superposition is an addition of all the charges. I also noticed, so you mentioned that you're doing time independent perturbation theory, which I didn't pick that up. So perturbation theory, yeah, mathematically, it's kind of like a Taylor expansion. So the basic idea is you can have polynomials. So you can have, you know, a constant term, then a linear term, and then a quadratic term. And the idea is, if you're doing an approximation, let's, hopefully the thing is small, so the higher order terms can be neglected. And then so perturbation theory is this approximation scheme that you can use to find solutions to things.

2:11:52And there's different ways you can apply perturbation theory in physics. Typically, when you refer to perturbation theory in quantum electrodynamics, it's not about time independence. It's more about when you write down the Feynman diagrams, you can have what they call tree-level diagrams and then loop-level diagrams. Typically, the tree-level diagrams correspond to the classical interactions. And the number of loops in the diagram is the level of perturbation theory you're at. So the language that I'm familiar with is the classical theory is essentially the zero third order terms. And you can think of it as a perturbation in h-bar because h-bar is small.

2:12:35That's a kind of way to colloquially think of it. And so you could have a one loop diagram. That would be a first order correction, a two loop diagram, second order, so on and so forth. However, I mean, in quantum mechanics, before getting into quantum field theory, I'm pretty sure that you could do time-independent perturbation theory. I mean, for what you're working with, you have a lot of DC. It's DC, so there's no time dependence, right? And so you could look at the frequency and you could say, well, it's a really long wavelength excitation. So I'll have to think more about what exactly you are doing, because I just assumed that you were doing the typical perturbation theory of quantum field theory, but now you're mentioning time-independent perturbation theory.

2:13:23So I've seen some of your notes. Obviously, you haven't published something yet, so I haven't, you know, I looked through what you were able to send me, but I'm just realizing now that you mentioned time-independent perturbation theory, which wasn't what I was thinking. So maybe that is worth disentangling. I'm not saying you necessarily have an error there, but I'm just realizing that now. No, I mean, I, you know, this is, I haven't done QED in 26 years. Yeah. So could use a refresher. Yeah. But I was just intrigued by just doing the time independent perturbation theory and getting something.

2:13:59I love your help translating some of that. The vertices that don't end. I understand these particles don't, they're not real, right? You can't capture them. but I pictured them more like electric fields where you can't pull the field from the charge, right? Have you now, field line. It doesn't work that way. And that's what these things I think represent. So that's why we have things like renormalization, these really complicated tools to try to address these infinities. A lot of infinities here. And that is a nasty integral that I have not been able to solve. Yeah, yeah. I'm only looking at the cartoon picture, trying to interpret it.

2:14:37but if you want to help me with that, it'd be awesome. With the real math, I had five, six kids started to work on that. Gamma functions, error functions, these are not fun things. Yeah, the integrals are definitely hard. They are not hard. It's not a beautiful solution like Coulomb's off. It's different. Does the fact that Charles is talking about a time-independent perturbation, which you kind of hadn't anticipated before the conversation, does that change anything as far as the viability in your mind with QED, or is that something you have to kind of think about offline? You could do perturbations with frequency at the classical level.

2:15:16So if you're claiming it's a quantum effect at some point, I believe, I mean, with the five diagrams that you have, would there be any loops in the diagrams that you've been studying? Well, the zero-sorters are there, right? The non, where they start and the end, yeah. the self energy you're talking about yeah yeah there's self energy terms there's 12 terms and i think half of them are not very useful but maybe the other half are that's the that's what i'm proposing maybe they're interesting because they don't they don't close in like you would want them to you can't make the picture nice and neat in your head and so it's it's this is a game and i love this game because it's like trying to try to use your mind and our brains are not good at this.

2:16:03If I take two charges, we know they can attract and we know they can repel. But if you didn't see this one and you see this one go there, go there, your brain would say, oh, I can't do that. Or if I take two charges and I stick them on a box, don't let them touch. Take the electrodes away. Are they still attracting? Damn right they are. For how long? Forever. So that is a fundamental property of charge fields which qd i think explains quite well so but is it conserving energy you know that's what you have to think about is it conserving energy still it you've removed all your energy to get that there why is it still there so there's there's a little mind games with this i think kind of helps i think this exodus is kind of a here's another mind game for you?

2:16:57I mean, it is hard to imagine what is going on there. I have to experimentally. I don't know what's going on. But it's curious because we have Nother's theorem, which describes energy momentum conservation from space-time translation symmetry. And Nother was actually studying quantum field theory and discovered something profound about classical mechanics, about the conservation laws but even still things are conserved off shell so it's hard to right as you're saying i mean maybe there's some charges that we're overlooking right but they're honestly it's at the point where if it appeared as if momentum conservation was violated then you would claim that there's something else there that we don't understand right there must be something carrying that momentum.

2:17:48I mean, that's how the neutrino was discovered. Initially, they had these decay channels and they're accounting the energy. They're accounting for the energy. It's like, wait a second, the bookkeeping isn't adding up. And then isn't that how science kind of moves forward in some ways? I guess if you were to take your physics hat off and just as a human being, look at all the kind of overwhelming anecdotal evidence, because I know you've kind of systematically surveyed a lot of these like weird fringe experiments and exotic propulsion, free energy, all sorts of things like that. And to me, you know, without any sort of physics background, I think you almost have to be dogmatic to say that there isn't some sort of there there specifically around the lineage of the type of stuff that Charles is discussing.

2:18:39I don't know what you would say there. Yeah, what do you think? Because clearly that is a way often that science moves forward. You know, if you look at, you know, Thomas Kuhn in the, you know, structure of scientific revolutions, it's this like anomaly buildup and then that sort of breaks the dam. And then the theory often is playing catch up on the anomaly. Yeah, definitely. It can go both ways as well. But I mean, certainly out of all of these weird phenomena that seem to not fit into conventional theory, I mean, I would say your experimental results are, you know, got to be in the top 10 in terms of most convincing things I've seen.

2:19:16I mean, there's other groups where they do one experiment and they're measuring piconewton forces, right? We've all heard these stories and then people get in debates. Oh, is it some experimental error? Obviously, as you point out, you're not 100 % sure there could be some prosaic explanation, but the fact that you've done so many different things and you're seeing the self-consistency. I mean, even as a scientist, I have to say that is encouraging and we should explore this further. It's not something we should just sweep under the rug and forget about. What would be your best way? You know, obviously you haven't like rigorously kind of studied the experiment itself.

2:19:55You haven't been like on site with them, but would you have any way of explaining it away? Like if he is controlling for and eliminating this ion wind effect and actually showing that in a vacuum chamber, you get more thrust. To me, that feels pretty convincing. And then obviously this is being done in a Faraday cage, so there's no electric field interference. Is there any way that you could kind of poke at it or kind of strawman it from afar? Honestly, no. And I've interacted with Drew multiple times on APEC with Tim Ventura. I've had private communications with him. I've interacted with him publicly.

2:20:34I've seen his iteration rate, first of all, is phenomenal, right? He's just always testing new things, trying different stacks with different materials and different geometries. And he's really dialing it in. It's really impressive, the innovation rate that he's going at and your whole team. And so, I mean, if you've checked all these things that you say you've checked, right? Obviously, I haven't been in the lab with you, but I can't think of anything, to be honest. I can't think of any prosaic explanation. I mean, you're right, there's not much magnetic stuff going on. There's a lot of electrostatics, right?

2:21:14Not much charge moving. It's just so mind-blowing, though. I mean, the idea that the claim is you power it up and And then you unplug it from the wall and then the thrust continues indefinitely. Well, you know, obviously you haven't tested it for an infinite amount of time. Drew would sometimes act as if it would last forever. I mean, my skeptical brain is saying, well, eventually wouldn't that capacitor discharge? But still, even if it lasts a day, you know, it seems like it lasts longer than a day from what you guys have done as far as I can tell in terms of the claims. it's hard to imagine how could that be continued.

2:21:54Like the fact that it's not getting drained, you would think, okay, well, wouldn't it require energy to get that thrust? Wouldn't that quickly drain the capacitor? It doesn't seem to be what you're claiming. You've tested it in so many different ways that it's a tough challenge for anyone to try to describe what's going on there. It's very mysterious. You're also friends with and looked at the experiments done by Falcon Space in this sort of area, in this sort of electrogravitic or maybe new electrostatic force area. They basically tried to pull off the Byfield-Brown effect. What was your take on that experiment?

2:22:35Yeah, so it was actually interesting. It was curious. So it's not scientifically conclusive. Not all the experimental errors ruled out, But there was something interesting that was seen where they did the tests at not too low pressure and they noticed it's spinning in one direction. And then eventually they kept pumping down further and further. And eventually it started spinning in the other direction, which it's qualitative. We don't know how strong the force is. I don't know what the friction was. they had a nice mechanism to hold it up so it minimized the friction using magnets which introduces additional potential errors but i'm not too worried about the magnets but if you're going to do a demonstration for others that are skeptical you should probably maybe think to do it another way so it was i think it was interesting and it's worth further study it's suggestive but not conclusive, I would say, where more work is needed.

2:23:35Because of the magnets? Well, no, honestly, so there was this other thing where the way the high voltage was delivered to the thrusters on one end, it used the spiraling around the chamber. I mean, that's something you'd point at and say, ah, let's just say it's that. Honestly, I doubt it would be causing what was seen, but, you know, it's something to consider. really to get a confirmed thing it's best to do multiple tests right not just one and do it in different ways but really another issue potentially was the fact that there were these discharges that were observed and tim ventura was actually one of the first to kind of get a little skeptical to some degree because he had worked with those ion lifters back in the day with the triangular ones in the tinfoil.

2:24:25And so he had worked with high voltage and he was aware because it took me time to realize this. You would think naively, well, okay, there's all this ion wind stuff. And that's because you're ionizing the air. So you just remove the air and do it in vacuum. And I'm good, right? No ion wind to worry about. But what if there's ions or electrons literally flying off the thruster itself? Or what if the wires connecting them, we could see different discharges that were occurring so what if you're you're you're spraying out these ions what if that's causing the force so it's it's something that it's it's it's also amazing to look into it it's first of all it's a challenge enough just to work with high vacuum systems then it's another challenge i mean you're well aware of this stuff to work with high voltage sure but then to combine the two it's it's remarkable because you yeah you definitely want to enclose everything with the can i when i saw mark's video i was worried about the coil because that would be you know dubious why do you have a ground there but it's not a ground i guess it's a high voltage wire but um it's interesting that it went one way like you would expect if it was a corona wind and you pump it down goes the other way that would be that's cool to see yeah so but you don't like you say you don't want the discharges.

2:25:44You don't want the current coming off, even in a high vacuum. You'll get field emission, it's called. Yeah. From materials. So you want to kind of make sure you encapsulate everything. So that would be the only thing that might be a hiccup is the possibility of field emission. But I've not seen the experiment, so. But that's easy to prevent. You can Corona dope it. You can do all kinds of things to kind of prevent that, get encapsulated. But yeah. Yeah, so I found it encouraging, but you got to keep studying further, I think, you know, to really get to the bottom of it. Well, on that note, I know we went deep into all sorts of, you know, out there, out there theories.

2:26:21But this was super, super helpful. And if you were to give Charles any advice as far as kind of fleshing out his theory or, you know, places to look, what would it be? Well, I would say, yeah. So if you're doing it, you could consider two different types of perturbation theory at the same time. So you can do the time independent one and you can do the h-bar, the quantum corrections as well. So you could keep track of both of those. It's a little more complicated. You might not even need the time-independent assumption, but since you're working with electrostatics, I also see why you're doing that.

2:26:56So it could make sense to do that approximation because it would simplify things, but then you just got to be... Yeah, I mean, if it's truly DC, yeah, it probably would be a good approximation to do. yeah so I think that would be one thing to do just look into renormalization the self energy those perturbative corrections can affect the electron self energy also this is a puzzling thing if you look at the Dirac spinner which is used for electron in quantum electrodynamics the spinner field you can still have classical equations of motion for a quantum field and those equations might have E or H bar or C.

2:27:40So you can get alpha in thing in classical equations, but it's subtle because it's a quantum field theory, but there's a classical limit there. So yeah, I would say, I honestly just try to learn as much as you can. Keep trying to, we can correspond via email and try to talk more about quantum electrodynamics and we'll see, maybe something more is needed, but I think it's a good effort to at least see where does quantum electrodynamics take you sure but also just recognize it is a possibility that the results you're finding can't be described by quantum electrodynamics just keep that in mind yeah you know the reason why we like to use the qed we haven't mentioned it much but um because of the alpha that shows up experimentally you know that's that's really cool some and the fine structure you know showing up in terms of the forces and fine structure constant squared So it's always some kind of function of alpha keeps showing up experimentally.

2:28:35There's not too many experiments you could do in your garage to get you an alpha. And that points towards quantum electrodynamics. It points to quantum. Quantum in general. Quantum, yeah. No one knows where alpha comes from. I don't think anyone has a clue, but it's there. Why does the fact that a fine structure constant is showing up point towards quantum mechanical effect? That's a good question. It's the coupling between fields and charge is what alpha. Okay. Okay. So it's not too surprising. So it's like a primitive in quantum mechanics and that keeps showing up. In physics in general. It shows up all over the place.

2:29:09Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's also another way to look at it where you can kind of look at it from a natural unit perspective and just kind of set h bar and c to one. I know a lot of people might not like that. No, I don't like that. Sorry? I don't like that. Yeah, I can understand why. I get what you're saying. I mean, at the end of the day, alpha is proportional to, was it e squared? And the interaction term between the electron and the photon introduces a factor of alpha. So once you have that Feynman vertex where you have an electron, positron, and a photon, there's like a factor of alpha there.

2:29:43And so if you're going to build these loop order corrections, you're going to need more vertices. So you will require more factors of alpha as you go out in the quantum perturbation theory. However, just remember that even for the Coulomb force, where it's a tree diagram, no loops, you could do a unitarity cut on that photon internal line, and there's still two interaction vertices, alpha and alpha, that get multiplied together, even for a classical process. So certainly tracking powers of alpha is helpful in perturbation theory, but just keep in mind that it comes in at the classical level as well.

2:30:26That's exciting, yeah. Because I've been doing the, deriving the orders of magnitude between third order, I think, I didn't go to fourth order, but yeah, actually it's fourth order, third order, second order, first order. And you can see the perturbations in alpha. Alpha's nice to use because it's dimensionless. It's the ratio of the energy of two charges divided by a photon of that same wavelength of how far apart those two charges are. So that's what alpha is. It's the ratio of two energies. That's the best way to describe the Sommerfeld constant. so oh there was something else i want to mention you too you'd mentioned the term hidden momentum so i believe there is work certainly by the 1980s where if because in classical electrodynamics the pointing vector is what carries the momentum density and that is proportional to e cross b and so there were experiments where people have part of the reason why hidden momentum is found was in statics as well, where they had an electric field that was static and a magnetic field that was static, and they're perpendicular.

2:31:34So you get this E cross B, and it was puzzling because you would have a pointing vector implying there's momentum. But I mean, I'm pretty sure if you just take a symmetric capacitor with an electric field going through, and then you put it inside a solenoid with a magnetic field perpendicular, nothing's going to thrust, right? And the hidden momentum is what describes what cancels out so that you don't get thrust in those experiments. So that's just another thing to look into. That's where I started, right? So I started looking at field momentum being converted into linear angular or linear momentum.

2:32:13And the crux was this 1970s hidden momentum, which is a relativistic effect. So even if you have a magnetic field, a current, you can always draw that as a kind of a square. And whenever there's the Faraday field, it will accelerate charges in one loop and decelerate them in the other loop. So it's basically a kind of a change in momentum physically of the loop of the electrons hitting the walls. That's how they describe the hidden momentum. So every time you have a static E cross B, nothing moved. Like you can't, you have a highly charged electric, you know, electric charge to a bar magnet doesn't fly across the room because of the hidden momentum.

2:32:46So that can be scaled down microscopically. So even the magnetic moments can be pictured as little currents. And they have hidden momentum. They're relativistic. So I first started out for last, I don't know, I started out in the 2000s to look at maybe the conversion from field momentum to mechanical momentum could happen like it does in the angular case, but for linear momentum, if there's no hidden momentum. So what's the opposite of relativistic charges moving? electrostatics keep the charges static. Do static charges possess hidden momentum? And that's my, my theory was it didn't. So that led me down to that path where in 2010, I saw the forces initially could have been something else, but that's where I started.

2:33:33And it wasn't until after two years working with Drew, I said, Oh, Drew's got the, he's got the conversion down from fuel momentum to mechanical momentum without static charges. My wife pointed that out. And so we did the test. So for two years, we thought that's what the case wasn't until 2018 where I realized that I didn't even need the current. So I'm not even setting up the E cross B fields anymore to this. There's two electric fields and one magnetic field for that all to work. You have the E cross B and then you, you kill the B to make a second E field called the Faraday's law field to convert it into mechanical momentum.

2:34:11But if you don't have hidden momentum, you should see thrust. So that's what we thought we were seeing until I realized just before going on a trip that I didn't even need a B field or a current. Oh man, I'm in pure electrostatics mode. Whoa. So I don't have any field momentum, which was good and bad. It led us down this path. Yeah. Okay, so now I'm going to have to study that first before going back to that, which is far more complicated. Super fascinating. Well, this has been a really fun discussion. David, thank you so much for lending your expertise here and for, you know, talking to Charles.

2:34:52In a way, that's clearly like not dogmatic about the experimental results and then kind of helping sharpen his blade on the quantum electrodynamics. So really appreciate you both. Thank you. Thanks for having us. And it's a pleasure meeting you. It's a pleasure meeting you too. Thank you.

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