NASA Doctor: "I Saw A UFO Hovering In THIS Secret Hangar" (Ft. Greg Rogers)

33:03He had been there for many, many years, and so he actually knew a lot more about what was going on than I did. So I would go, and then he would say, hey, we've got new operations here, a new operation here, new operation here. I'm going to send my escort with you, and that way you can take a look at what we're doing. So on this particular day, I went out to the first set of buildings. I went to the second set of buildings. I went to the third set of buildings. Well, we were only going to look at three sets. So while we'd gone into the clean room and come out, because it's a clean room, you have to take your little hair bonnet off.

33:50You had to take your gloves off. You had to take an outer jacket, like a lab coat, off. And then you had to take the booties off of your shoes. Well, he had done it so many times that he said, okay, see you, Doc, boom, boom, boom, and he was out of there. So I was taking just a little bit of extra time, so maybe one or two minutes was all that separated the EG &G escort leaving the building from me leaving that building, I thought. Well, as I left that area, I went through this set of double doors, and there was a major that was standing there. And he immediately recognized me as the flight surgeon.

34:33But there were so many people that I did physicals on that, you know, I couldn't remember everybody. So I didn't even really recognize him. But he was smiling real big. And he said, I've got something to show you even you have never seen. Wow. Now, I believe the reason he said that was because with the EG &G contract, I went to probably 80 % of the buildings on Cape Canaveral. The people in a specific work site for compartmentalization, they could go to that building and then they left, but they couldn't go to any of the other buildings. That way, we didn't have cross-contamination of people learning things that they had no need to know.

35:19So he knew I went all over the Cape, you know, on top of everything else. For a lot of the different sections, you had to have specific ID cards. So at the time, I probably had like 12 different ID cards. He had one. But, you know, he was anxious to show me something. So he said, I've got to show you this. So I said, okay, well, show it to me and, you know, let's get on with it. You think he's trying to impress you? Oh, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. What day is this? Do you know the date? No, I would say it was in like April or May. It was a hot day, but it wasn't quite fully summer. Was it midday, towards the end of the day?

36:11Uh, it was probably, I would guess, about 1 or 2 o 'clock in the afternoon. Before we jump into today's episode of American Alchemy, I want to thank today's sponsor, Hex-Clad Cookware, a.k.a. the pans I didn't know I needed until I ditched the warped, flaked mess I've been cooking with since college. But here's what sold me. Hex-Clad pans are like if stainless steel and non-stick had a love child. And then Gordon Ramsay adopted it. No joke, he actually uses them at home and in his restaurants. And as we all know, that guy doesn't suffer fools gladly. So he probably has equally high standards for his cookware.

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37:34Again, that's hexclad.com slash jessie. Please use that link. It shows a ton of support for the channel and you get a discount. Now back to the episode. So I'm anxious to get back to my clinic. Our clinic would close at 4 to 4.30. And so anything that had gone on while I was gone, I would have to deal with when I got back. So I was interested in getting back. Well, he took me inside this office that was there, and that didn't seem unusual. There was a door, and then there were two or three windows there, and they all had louvered blinds on them. Well, as soon as he took me inside there, he shut the door and locked it.

38:21and then he closed the louvered blinds for the door, and then he closed the louvered blinds for all of these windows. So I'm thinking, what's he doing? You know, this is kind of strange. Well, he sat down at his computer console, and so he turned it on, and he turned on his video apparatus, you know, computer screen. And so I'm just sort of sitting there talking, but he's talking kind of excited. So I'm mainly just listening, you know, okay, this guy's excited about something, you know, whatever. So when the screen finally came up, he did something, you know, to sort of fine tune it, I guess, or something.

39:11And then all of a sudden he said, sit down here. So he moved to the seat next to his chair, and I sat down in his chair. And when I sat down in his chair, I looked at his screen, and I was totally shocked. It was a closed-circuit television feed, and it had no identification of classification, location, location where it was coming from, the time of day it was, anything about it. The screen was completely clean. All I could see was this closed circuit television. How did you know it was a closed circuit feed? Because that's what it looked like. Sure. um um you know i i'd seen dozens and dozens of them and you know here here's another one and it it was um just like all of the others there was nothing special about it except for what was on the screen so when when i looked at it there were two guys over uh to the right lower hand and uh They looked like engineer types to me because they had on lab coats.

40:29This is in the frame on the screen. In the frame on the screen. Well, over to the right, there were three guys, and they had Tyvek suits, I would call them now. And they were standing there talking, and right in between them, there's a saucer. I would say it's a flying saucer, but it wasn't flying yet. But there's a saucer 20 feet across. It was sort of like a modified egg. The surface was completely smooth. There were no rivets, no seams, no windows, nothing that I could see. Do you know what color it was? Oh, it was pearly white. Pearly white. And was it an egg or was it a saucer? Well, it was a saucer that was shaped.

41:25You know, an egg is a little off-center. If you could modify the egg to where it wasn't off-center, that's sort of what it would look like. So it was like, yeah, I can totally picture. So it's like a pancake or something with some. Yeah, a really thick pancake. Yes, with some concave ends or whatever. Yeah, interesting. Now then, there were, because this was pearly white, I mean, you couldn't see anything else on it. There were black rectangles that had been, I assume, painted onto the vehicle. So along the beam, about 60 % of the spacecraft was above and 40 % below, but it had this beam that went across.

42:14From the 1230 to 230 point, there was a horizontal rectangle that was pure black. And then from the 330 to 530, it was pure black. And then as I saw motion later, I could tell that at 630 to 830, there was a horizontal rectangle that was black and another one at the 930 to 1130. So along the beam, these four rectangles covered most of the area. Now then, at what I would call the 3 o 'clock position, there was a vertical rectangle. And I could barely see something at the 6 o 'clock position, but as I saw it moving later, I could tell that there was the same rectangle at 3 o 'clock, 6 o 'clock, and 9 o 'clock.

43:11Aside from that, it was just pearly white. I immediately thought, you know, this is a testbed program. You know, this is an experimental vehicle. And they've had to paint the rectangles so that they could watch the motion. Well, at the 12 o 'clock position, there was something that I could sort of see but not really see. But then later on, it rotated clockwise. And when I saw it, it was clear as day. It said U.S. Air Force. And then just above that was an Air Force flight insignia. And so the craft rotated. How did it rotate? Well, it was initially on the floor, and then all of a sudden it just lifted off, just light as a feather.

44:10If I had not been watching it, I might not have even seen it. It was such smooth motion. So now all of a sudden it's floating three feet up. Well, the nose of it started to – it didn't have a nose, but what I'm identifying is the 12 o 'clock position. began to rotate clockwise and went one full circle 360 degrees. Then it paused for a few moments, and then it rotated back 360 degrees the other way so that it was in exactly the same place it had started. But this had given me a complete view of the entire craft. And if it did not have the black markings, it didn't have the U.S. Air Force on it or the Air Force insignia, it was so pearly white that even if it had rotated, I don't know that I could have detected the motion.

45:14So with those rectangles on there and the markings, I could see the rotation. And you saw U.S. Air Force. And I saw U.S. Air Force on it. And so these two guys in the room, what are they doing? Well, everybody left before they initiated action. I should have said that. But this sort of like warning beacon went off and tells everybody, okay, get out of the way. We're about to do this. So it was like some sort of test or something. Oh, yes. I absolutely believe that this was the test of a prototype flying saucer, and I believe it was probably owned by a defense contractor and was not part of the U.S.

46:01Air Force inventory. Do you have any sense of which defense contractor might have owned it? There was nothing that gave me a clue, So whatever I came up with would be speculation on my part. But like, I don't know, maybe EG &G, given that? Oh, no, no, it wouldn't have been EG &G. Okay. It would have been something like Lockheed or Northrop. Boeing, Northrop. Got it. Raytheon. Raytheon. That would have been a little bit of a big thing for Raytheon by themselves, but they could have certainly been in partnership with the consortium, you know, Martin Marietta. At the time, this is 92, Lockheed and Martin Marietta had not joined into Lockheed Martin yet.

46:51So in 95, they did that. But somebody owns this thing, and I did not believe it's the U.S. Air Force. Every time, you know, when we wanted to have the F-117, we didn't start off with the F-117. Back in the 70s, we started with what's called the Have Blue system. And so it was a primitive attempt to try to show that we could do this. Once we had the Have Blue system working and functioning, then the Air Force said, okay, we're going to give you a contract. We want you to build this many F-117s. And so they modified it and improved it and then made the actual F-117. And then the Air Force paid them for it.

47:45And it went into the Air Force inventory. So at that point, the Air Force owned it. But But when it was half blue and it was the preliminary designs, the U.S. Air Force did not own that, even though it had U.S. Air Force markings. It was owned by Lockheed Skunk Works. And so you're looking at this craft. Do you have any sense of, outside of the U.S. Air Force insignia on it, whether it is extraterrestrial or not from here or whether it is from here? When I saw this thing, I looked over at the guy and I said, who would design something like that? And he said, I can't tell you. But then when I said, well, why would we build it in a design like this?

48:38This is exactly what he did. He looked at me and went, we got it from them.

48:47So, I mean, I don't have to figure out what that means. but that that was exactly what he said we got it from them now then one of the characteristics of this thing was that as soon as it became activated there were electromagnetic discharges across the surface of the vehicle but i could not detect any sort of structure for what was producing those signals. You know, if you see a little patch on the side of an aircraft, you can say, oh, well, either that's an electronic marker. You know, these days we even have radars that are having a very small location, but there was nothing like that. This thing was...

49:43Nothing to generate the electromagnetic anomalies. Yes, it was pearly white. How could you even see electromagnetic anomalies around the craft just through video footage? Well, first of all, I also heard them, but it was like little sparks, just like this. Like static discharge. Static discharges. And so it was going on all over. It was if the vehicle itself was charged up or something. Yes, the vehicle appeared to be making the electrical discharges. Were there any transformers or power sources? Well, at the top of the craft, there was a pole. And going up from the pole, there were three lines that impressed me as umbilicals.

50:33So they may have been feeding electricity to it. that they may have been feeding electrical controls, whatever. Now, that's one of the reasons that I immediately thought that it was a contractor model, because you can't fly in air or space with umbilicals tied to your craft. So I felt like that what this indicated to me was that on the inside, they did not have sufficient power source, control mechanism, anything. And so through the umbilicals, they were having to feed this information into the vehicle to make it function properly. So if it was a more mature platform, it should have had all of these things internal to the spacecraft without having to have umbilicals feeding into it to provide it power and information or whatever else it was.

51:43Did you get any other context? Did you say, where is this video porting into? Or what do you mean we got it from them? Who are them? No, well, the thing is, by this time, I had watched it levitate, rotate 360, rotate counterclockwise 360. It had moved left and right, forward and backwards. Really? It moved left and right? Did it move smoothly? Oh, yeah, very smoothly. It's just like if you're playing a video game for the first time and you've got an aircraft and you want to try out the controls to make sure it works right. Was it enveloped in any sort of bubble or something? A lot of people say that.

52:29These electromagnetic discharges were audible. You could hear them. And you could see them. But it was sort of like there was an electromagnetic cover on it, almost like a plasma shield that had formed on it. Now, when I think of it moving, if it was moving according to the sheer electromagnetic forces for it to rise up, those forces should have been aimed down. That's not what happened. As you know, I'm always on the hunt for things that help me stay sharp, focused, and full of energy while I'm diving into life's mysteries and making this show happen. And I've got to say, mud water has completely transformed my mornings.

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55:00When I saw initially lift off the ground, there were maybe three or four electromagnetic signals generated each second. Little just static sparky thing. But the thing is, they were totally random. There wasn't anything, you know, if you want it to move this way, you know, there's a bunch of them over here. It was moving, you know, when it was moving back and forth. Sometimes, like when it was moving backward, I don't believe there were any electromagnetic discharges on that end of the craft. And I don't think there were really any on the opposite end. It was more across the top and bottom surface of the vehicle.

55:53So that caused me to immediately believe the electromagnet discharges are there, but the electromagnet discharges are not what is moving this thing. Do you have a sense of what might have been moving the thing? It had to be a force that I was unfamiliar with. Fascinating. Okay, so when this guy next to you is saying it came from them, do you get any more context on that? No, and here's why. In like the next few seconds, the 12 o 'clock position rose to a 45 degree angle. That's almost like the Commander David Fravor thing where it's like it goes boop. Yes. Now then, I flew helicopters and I flew F-16s.

56:53No vehicle I have ever known of could obtain a 45-degree angle of attack without moving. A helicopter will get a 45-degree angle of attack, no problem. But as soon as you do that, you're going to have the force vector point forward, and so the rotor is going to move the opposite direction. Yep. So there's no vehicle that I know of that could obtain that 45-degree angle of attack. But just then, there was a knock on the window.

57:36so somebody said hey what's going on in there that the doors are locked well man this guy panics he shuts off the computer and the console he looks at me and says don't tell anyone i showed you this And, you know, I'm thinking, you just showed me a flying saucer. Who am I going to tell it to? So he goes over and he unlocks the door and this lieutenant colonel came in and we were both majors. So he outranks us. And then there were two other guys. I think they were captains. And so the lieutenant colonel comes in and says, what's going on in here? What are you guys up to? And so this major... Is the room just dedicated to feeding into wherever this UFO is located?

58:22Well, it's a set of computer consoles. There were four people. There were four computer consoles. It didn't look any different from any other four computer consoles. But were you in the room alone with the one guy? I was alone with him for a total of maybe 15 minutes. Yep, yep. But as soon as they knocked on the door and opened it, now there's five of us in there. Before we get into that, one final question. Do you have any sense on the location of the craft, where you're feeding into in this? No. Okay. If I were to guess, the Lockheed Skunk Works would be one of the tops of the list. Sure. Area 51 would be at the top of the list.

59:10I would think Wright-Patterson would be at the top of the list. The usual suspects. It could be a different location on Cape Canaveral that I don't know about.

59:24It could have been at the Dugway Proving Grounds or Tueli out there. I have no idea where it is. Sure. But it also gave me no indications where it was. Yeah. Yeah. Fascinating. Wow. Okay. So everybody storms into the room all of a sudden. So who's in the room at this point? It's you? So me, the major that showed it to me, a lieutenant colonel, and I believe it was two captains. So the major says, well, I had this skin lesion that I thought might be cancerous. So I just wanted to show it to the doc. And that's why I closed the door for my privacy. Well, now everybody turns and looks at me and I'm sitting there.

1:00:10I just saw flying saucer. Yeah. I mean, this is, this is the most bizarre thing I've ever seen at this point, but my mind is racing. If there had been any degree of classification that was indicated on that video, This episode is brought to you by PayPal. You know how a mom's bag has everything? Sunscreen? Snacks? A stapler? The new PayPal app is like that, but for your money. Shop, pay, manage your account, and earn rewards all in one place. And with purchase protection on eligible items, biometric security, and pass keys, you're protected at every step. Download the new PayPal app to get started.

1:00:56See paypal.com slash protection terms. I would have had to immediately report this guy because if that had showed classified and he showed it to me in an improper fashion, I'm reporting him. But it didn't say classified. So I'm looking at him and then I'm also thinking, well, this guy couldn't have found out about it unless somebody showed him. Now, if this lieutenant colonel showed him and I report it, then I'm also going to have to report the lieutenant colonel. I'm going to have to go up their chain of command. I'm going to have to go to his commander and say, they showed me a flying saucer video.

1:01:34Now then, if they came back in here and said, well, put it up on the screen, and nobody could find it, nobody could find it, then my story would make me look like an idiot.

1:01:50and not only that but when I got back to my clinic I would have to go to my commander and say colonel sir sorry about that but I just saw a flying saucer and I reported to security and to the chain of command the the general is probably going to hear about it and then it's probably going to blossom from there with all of the people that are going to hear about this flying saucer. So I'm sitting there thinking, you know, this is a career decision for me. So I just said, it wasn't cancer. Everything's fine. I got up and left. And I booked it out of there. I got in my car thinking on your feet i i drove uh 30 minutes down to patrick and i'm thinking this whole time and you know i have heard um pilots and astronauts talk about things they have seen that they failed to report well as i'm driving down the highway a1a i'm sitting there thinking man i'm going to join I am not going to report this thing.

1:03:07So what makes you even higher conviction that that's the right thing to do? So obviously you don't want some big bureaucratic blow up. You don't want this guy to get in trouble maybe because he was just trying to impress you. But you also don't want to get kind of drug through the mud about what you saw and interrogated and that sort of thing. If I went back and said I saw a flying saucer, I have no idea what it would have done to my career. so you know in 1992 you just didn't report flying saucers it doesn't it doesn't matter what you see you can talk about it in the debrief but but when you write the debrief you're not going to put that in there did you get the vibe that the lieutenant colonel or you know the captain had any sense of you know what that room might be feeding into as far as footage of this uh you know Since the computer screen was off, when they came in, I have no knowledge then or now whether or not they had seen that video.

1:04:13They might have seen it 30 minutes earlier and shown it to the major. Right. I don't know. Does any part of you think that this could have been some sort of elaborate psyop? if so it was one of the most random things ever right because that was the only time i ever went to that building yeah uh if i had um been a little bit quicker in taking off my um hair bonnet my gloves my um lab coat and my booties and walked out at the same time as my escort I don't think that guy would have even broached the subject. It never would have happened. Hey everyone, Jesse here. Let's talk about something a lot of us quietly deal with, hair loss.

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1:06:14Of course, the restocking fee applies. That made it a no-brainer for my friend. So give yourself the gift of hair confidence this spring. For a limited time only, our listeners get a huge discount on iRestore Elite when you use code JESSE, J-E-S-S-E, at iRestore.com. Head over to iRestore.com and use code JESSE, J-E-S-S-E, for our show's exclusive discounts on the iRestore Elite. Please support our show and tell them we sent you. Hair loss is frustrating. You don't have to fight it alone, thanks to iRestore. If I'm by myself, he mentions it. But if I'm with an EG &G Escorts, I don't think he would bring it up in any way, shape, or form.

1:06:56What do you think his incentive was? Because it's like he didn't have a prior relationship with you, right? He didn't know who you were, essentially, right? Well, he knew who I was. I might have done his physical a year and a half before. But you guys weren't close friends. No, it's like when you're an ER doctor and you're busy all day long. So you probably knew everybody. You see the people, but there are times that if you're really busy, someone says, what about the heart attack guy? Well, do you mean the first one or the second one? Sure, sure, sure. And then six months later, somebody comes up to you and Walmart says, hey my shoulder's doing better okay you know i don't know who that person is but uh you took care of my shoulder remember you gave me an injection yeah so do you oh oh well yeah i'm glad it feels better it's it's doing better now yeah it's really doing good so a lot of these people probably have asymmetric relationships with you like they're very grateful to you and then And to you, it's like another number, you know, one of a thousand or whatever.

1:08:11So this guy, have you thought of what his motives might have been as far as showing you this, you know, camera feed? Let's think about human basic nature.

1:08:27if somebody flips a pop bottle and it lands exactly on top and doesn't break and it doesn't fall over and they say, wow, look what I did. Someone walking by and they say, hey, look what I did with the pop bottle. We as humans like to share things. there have been plenty of other times that when when something happens they say hey hey doc um i i know you're not supposed to watch this but uh i know you work on the space shuttle so that's okay and so you know when i was on the submarine uh they took me into the sonar room that's a great example yeah um they were not supposed to take me into the sonar or let you drive the submarine or Or drive the submarine.

1:09:20But we're on a cruise, and they said, Hey, Doc, we're not really supposed to show you this, but we want you to see how good our sonar is. And so they took me into the sonar room and showed stuff. Well, they weren't really supposed to do that, but it's not like I'm going to go tell anybody what their sonar stuff is. So you think he was trying to impress you? Oh, he was obviously trying to impress you. And do you think on some level, maybe he wasn't supposed to know about this footage to begin with because he was just a major, right? Well, a lot of times you could be a tech sergeant enlisted, but you have a reason to know what's going on, and so that tech sergeant is read into a program, whereas the major is not.

1:10:08So the major may say, hey, what was that thing you were working with? And the tax agent says, sorry, sir, I can't tell you. And off he goes. So the point is seniority doesn't necessitate more information in all these cases. Especially, you know, it's very hard to shape the contours of some covert UFO program. But I've heard this many times of people who are superior in rank not being aware of the program. And then middle manager types being in charge in many cases. For security, there's two things that you need. One of them is a sufficient classification that you have been personally granted. And the other one is, it doesn't matter what your classification is.

1:10:54If you don't have a need to know, you're not supposed to know that. Did you ever see that guy again, the major? I never saw that guy again, and I assure you I never went back to that building. Wow. And since then, have you thought about, you know, I think EG &G is an interesting vector. You know, they came out of MIT, Doc Edgerton. You know, I think they formalized as a company in like the 50s or so, come out of the kind of atomic era and are responsible for a lot of interesting kind of, you know, deep black work for the U.S. government. Have you thought about them at all? Because, you know, another good example is Bob Lazar.

1:11:33And, you know, the 80s was, you know, supposedly stationed at Area 51, S4. He gets a job through Edward Teller. But he specifically gets a job with EG &G. And EG &G pops up elsewhere. In 1997, you have Admiral Thomas Wilson, who's head of J2 Joint Chiefs, who is, you know, under his purview, is all, you know, technical capabilities of, you know, U.S. military. And he's meeting with Dr. Eric Davis, and they're in the EG &G parking lot. And he's expressing extreme frustration that he doesn't have oversight over these sort of UFO programs. So do you think EG &G might play a part in the UFO story?

1:12:17EG &G is all over the military. For me to guess which contractor had the precedent on which project, I couldn't know. But EG &G had their fingerprints all over Cape Canaveral. They were the prime contractor. Everybody functioned with EG &G, regardless of the other contractors and what they were doing on the Cape. That's so fascinating. Yeah. And they were interested also in psychic research. They were doing some really out there stuff on the kind of psionic, psychic parapsychology side, and then also on the exotic propulsion side. They were also in charge of atomic testing. And if you think about, you know, where UFOs show up, they show up around, you know, sensitive nuclear sites.

1:13:15One example is I interviewed a guy named Harold Malmgren. I don't know if you're familiar with him, but he was a presidential advisor for JFK, Nixon, Kennedy, and Ford. and um or sorry he was he was a presidential advisor for jfk lbj nixon and ford and um he was in charge of costing these sort of um you know uh icbm defense systems uh for for uh basically taking out russian icbms and um it was this sort of nuclear detonation combined with this x-ray projection that would take out sort of anything in its vicinity and egn g was responsible for getting the footage of these atomic tests. And so, you know, I found that to be very fascinating that even they were involved back then.

1:14:04And, you know, literally the optical footage around the most sensitive atomic tests where, especially if, you know, nuclear detonation is taking out all the surrounding electronics within, you know, an EMP, you know, the optical footage is going to be really significant, especially for spotting anomalous things like UFOs. So I often think maybe EG &G plays this really important role. Well, on Cape Canaveral, it was this big, large facility. Just to get into Cape Canaveral Air Force Station, you had to have a clearance and a need to know. So we would have people like three-star generals that are on vacation in Florida drive up and say, hey, I want to come on and take a look at this stuff.

1:14:55And so the enlisted guard at the gate says, I'm sorry, sir, but you do not have authorization to enter this facility. And they would sometimes argue with them. But guess what? The security guard always won. Well, there were lots of other things on Cape Canaveral that weren't exactly directly related to the space program. But once you put it on Cape Canaveral, it has a very high level of secrecy. And if anybody asks, I'm not even going to use a subject as an example, but it could be for Project X. Now then, if you put Project X in New Mexico, they're going to wonder what it is. If you put Project X on Cape Canaveral Air Force Station, they can always say, oh, well, it's just related to the space program.

1:16:01so uh we had other projects that uh were on cape canaveral but anything anytime someone says cape canaveral they say oh well it's a space program well maybe maybe not but there there were other uh kinds of things that that we had operating that weren't exactly space program related Interesting. Some more kind of exotic science or something. Okay. Well, I can tell you, you might know a thing or two more than what you're saying. Well, I would hope that I knew a few more things than what I say. Yeah, yeah. Because I shouldn't be talking about everything. Yeah, no, for sure. So what made you want to come out?

1:16:50So it's been, you know, what, almost 25 years, you know, since that event. and you came out, was it a couple months ago now? Yeah. I retired from the Department of Defense on the 30th of April. Congratulations. Yes, thank you. I still haven't gotten all my pay straight. So if anyone in the pay department is listening, make sure I get my retirement pay straightened out. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He won't do any more interviews if you just pay him now. I'm just kidding. Yeah. I don't want to link those two things at all. I'm joking. You want to extort the gun? On the 4th of May, Josh Boswell came out with an interview from the UK Daily Mail.

1:17:46And then Ty Roberts came out with one for both the International UFO Bureau and also for Total Disclosure. He's part of both of those. You know, I need to say that I am on the board for the International UFO Bureau. I'm from Oklahoma, so guess what? It's headquartered in Oklahoma City, so that comes out very handy. Were you into UFOs before the sighting at all, or before this security camera sighting? You have to go back to 1969, I believe it was. And when I read Chariots of the Gods by Eric Von Doniken, I was hooked. Yeah. I was hooked for life. And my wife was even more hooked than I was. So she has always been fascinated with all of this stuff.

1:18:48Would you talk about it on the base with people? Would you express interest in UFOs? we would sometimes talk about things of that sort even though if someone walked into the room and said what were you just talking about we would have said baseball yeah and you don't think you were kind of psychologically profiled and tracked and you were like you know what Doc Rogers he loves the UFO thing and then you know they try to show you a thing to corroborate your belief or something I had no idea I was going to that building that day. Yep. My EG &G escort knew I was going to that building that day. Yeah, so could it have been this EG &G coordinated side-op or something?

1:19:43but he would have had to have done something more to make sure that he did not walk out at the same time I did in order for that major to speak with me because that major knew me as a flight surgeon but he would not have known the escort as an EG &G guy and if we had walked out at the same time I don't think he would have brought anything to my attention. Yeah, and also it is a good question to what end? Like what do they want from that? You know, the average person, they look up in the sky, they think they see a UFO, they take their camera, their family comes home, what are they going to do with their family?

1:20:33They're going to show it to everybody they know. That's what we as humans tend to do. And so wanting to show something unusual to other people is pretty common. Yeah. Yeah, no, totally. Often, Occam's razor on a lot of these things is just... This episode is brought to you by PayPal. You know how a mom's bag has everything? Sunscreen? Snacks? A stapler? The new PayPal app is like that, but for your money. Shop, pay, manage your account, and earn rewards all in one place. And with purchase protection on eligible items, biometric security, and pass keys, you're protected at every step. Download the new PayPal app to get started.

1:21:22See paypal.com slash protection terms. The human aspects of it. And, like, people talk more than they should. They want to impress other people more than they should. And, you know, it's the human fallibility explains way more than, you know, people want some sort of, you know, super coordinated psyop or whatever. And that's just often not the case. So, OK, so so, you know, two decades plus go by. You retire. And what makes you want to want to come and speak out about this? Well, first of all. Everything changed in 2017. When the New York Times article came out and I saw the videos, having known pilots for so many years, it wasn't just what they were looking at.

1:22:15Even if I had not seen what they were looking at, when I heard the tone of the voices of these pilots as they're talking back and forth to each other, like, wow, did you see that? They're not watching anything ordinary. I would recognize from their voice, oh my goodness, they are seeing something they have never seen in their life. Because you've probably heard tons of audio from pilots. Well, I've flown with pilots. So if we're in a formation and all of a sudden some strange things happen, we talk about it one time. Have you ever seen a UFO in the air with any pilots? No, I haven't. Okay. But as an example of something that happens, I was in a Blackhawk flying in Germany, and we were flying low level, which meant that as we came over the hill, we were supposed to be within 25 feet above ground level, AGL.

1:23:18And so we had come over this hill and was going down into the valley, and then there was a hill on the other side. And this was the last hill before you get to the Rhine River Valley. And just on the other side, there was an air defense artillery battery. Well, this F-4 Phantom that was using anti-radar missiles, harm missiles, and was performing this kind of stuff was not supposed to be in this airspace. But he came screaming down this valley at probably 400 knots. Well, we're just coming down, and he flies between us and the ground. and then books it up into there because he knew, man, he just nearly died.

1:24:17Well, the problem is we just nearly died too. His jet wash hit us and blew us up and rotated us. And so now we're across the valley and we are still getting a downward movement because of the pressure that his aircraft made. Well, on this side, the hill is coming up. So we deviate to try to gain as much air as possible. So we can't go straight. We go right into the mountain. So we bank as hard as we can. And when we get up to right here, there was a road. And so they have 100-foot-high trees there. But where the road was, it was clear. And so we passed that road at probably about five foot AGL.

1:25:12If there was a car, we would have hit it. But the trees are coming up on both sides. And so we went between the trees climbing up. Jesus. We nearly died because of what that F-4 pilot had done. Now then, as soon as we get up, I'll include this because it's funny from my standpoint. as soon as we climbed, we were not staying low level anymore. We were putting some air under us. And I made the comment, gentlemen, I want you to know my flight suit is dry. And the crew chief said, well, Doc, I sure wish I could say it.

1:25:54He had voided his bladder. But the thing is, as soon as we got back to the base, we're telling everybody this story. Well, it didn't involve anybody else. There was really nothing to do, but it was an interesting story, so we were telling it. So, yeah, that sounds like a close call. Oh, yeah, yeah. There's been several times that God was looking out for me or we wouldn't have made it. Yeah. Wow, that's fascinating. Okay, so 25 years later, you see this article come out in the New York Times. you see three Pentagon videos getting released that are unidentified by definition, and that sort of emboldens you to start to think about maybe...

1:26:41Yes. At that time, I spoke to a gentleman that I respect very greatly. I don't want to mention his name, but if I mentioned his name, boy, would you know who he was. Why don't you want to mention him? I had, you know, I'm getting dinged from people all over the place since I came out. I'm not going to dump one somebody else. Okay. You know, anyway, I talked to him for quite a while. And then the real impetus was when David Grush testified. Yeah. And he gave all of this expert testimony and then said, I know that we have reverse engineered craft. I just don't have anyone who will come out and say it in this setting.

1:27:38Well, as I watched the video multiple times, I thought, you know, I've got his six o 'clock covered. You know, he said no one's come out and told their story. Well, if I come out,

1:28:05David is exposed because no one will say that they saw a reverse engineered craft. So you wanted to back him up. So I can't confirm all of the other stuff he did. But when and then some of the government officials said, we have never had a craft like that in our inventory. And I was sitting there saying, what are you talking about? I saw it. So I decided, you know, when I retire, I'm going to tell my story, whether they like it or not. and next time David Grush speaks, he can say, look, not only do I know that there are reverse-engineered spacecraft, Dr. Greg Rogers testified to it. Well, he's definitely the tip of the spear, I think, in a lot of people's opinion.

1:29:05You know, he's provided, you know, hundreds of pages to the, you know, Inspector General of the Intelligence Community, Thomas Monheim, to the effect that there are covert reverse engineering programs. He's, you know, on C-SPAN talking to, you know, AOC, who's saying, do you have the locations of, you know, where these crafts are being reverse engineered? And he says, yes, I have the addresses and I will give them to you if you just get me into a SCIF. So I think that's kind of a bold, you know, flag to plant, right? If, you know, if you weren't being honest. And I think so. I think, you know, all of his colleagues say that, you know, he's beyond reproach.

1:29:48And, you know, all have good things to say about him. He was National Geospatial Agency, National Reconnaissance Office, Air Force, Space Force. I think maybe just Air Force. I don't know about Space Force, actually. And I've gotten to know him pretty well, and he's just autistic attention to detail, literally, because he's level one autism.

1:30:10Well, that would be me as well. You have level one autism, too? Yeah, along with PTSD. Oh, wow. And I've written a book since I went out to Contact in the Desert because so many people were saying, you've got to tell these stories. So I've written a book. What's the book? To be really ingenious, I decided to call it We Got It From Them. And is it about UFOs? It's about UFOs, but it also contains additional stories from my background because I want non-military people to sort of feel like what a military career is composed of. Yeah. And between each section, I tell a different one of my stories.

1:31:09And right before the final chapter, I just came right out and said, I have PTSD. Lots and lots of soldier, sailors, Air Force, Marines have this. And too many people see it as something that you've got to hide, that you can't admit what's going on. And so I wanted to spend one whole section trying to convince people, look, if you have PTSD, get help. Yeah. Here are things that can help you. But, you know, with the way people treat whistleblowers, if I have PTSD, someone's going to bring it out in a negative way. So I might as well beat him to the punch and just say, look. Well, good for you. Well, that happened to David Grush.

1:32:16It's crazy, but they basically leaked his medical records from, I guess, the police department locally in Virginia leaked this call that he had because one of his friends was mortared right next to him. Another friend committed suicide due to his own PTSD. He was an Afghanistan combat veteran, and he had suffered from it. he talks about it in this interview I do with him where he talks about doing, you know, heart rate variability, breath work, and other things to really, you know, reintegrate. So I admire your courage for talking about this. And I think you're right to say it prophylactically, because I can't tell you how many other whistleblowers I've broken who are, in my opinion, are sort of war heroes, things they tell me off air, really impressive things they've gone through.

1:33:08And then And people just go after their core credentials. They don't even go after the experience. They go after their, you know, they act like they weren't, like this one guy wasn't a Green Beret or something. It's like crazy. It's like, you know, I know he was. Well, you can have PTSD by survivor's remorse. There was one guy when I was a very young doctor who was in Vietnam. And they were in a firefight. And so they were trying to keep suppressive cover down, and he had emptied his M16, and so he put the next magazine in, and he was just hesitating because, man, they're taking fire from everywhere.

1:33:51Well, his sort of battle buddy guy was still firing next to him, and he paused instead of immediately returning fire. And while he paused, his best friend got hit and killed. And so for the rest of his life, he felt like if I had given suppression fire, my buddy wouldn't have died. And so I talked to him a number of times, but his family would say, you're a hero. And people would say all this kind of stuff. And yet, in his mind, he wasn't a hero. His buddy died because he hesitated. He was the least thing of a hero in his own mind that it could be because his buddy had died because he paused before returning fire.

1:34:48And that was something that that guy was going to live with the rest of his life. Yeah, I could see that eating away at you more than something having happened to you directly. So broadly, is the source of your PTSD just seeing all these people in the medical context? Well, it's all kinds of things. Sort of the one thing that sort of stands out as a story was that we had an aircraft mishap where one of our pilots died. And so I had to go and collect urine samples from him, blood samples from him. And I had to gather up the rest of his body and try to get as much of his body together as we could before we shipped it off for an autopsy.

1:35:48And so this was out in a filled environment. And so I got back to my tent because a bunch of people saw what happened. So I had to counsel all of these other people. So I spent the whole afternoon counseling these people and doing my job as a flight surgeon to prepare for the aircraft mishap investigation that was going to come out of this. Because every time an aircraft crashes, we try to find the details so that we can prevent the next one. So I finally got back to my GP medium, which is a general purpose tent. and as I sat down on my cot, one of my medics says, Captain Rogers, how bad was it?

1:36:37And I said, as bad as you can imagine. I mean, I picked up parts of his body 130 yards away, and so I was giving her just a few details, And all of a sudden she looked and she said, Captain Rogers, I don't know how to tell you this, but it looks like part of his brain is on your boot. So I looked down and I said, oh, yeah, it is. So I picked up part of his brain and we had a potbelly stove to keep us warm. And I just tossed it into that potbelly stove. for me the very next moment there was a hand on my shoulder and it was my um staff sergeant who was my ncyc and he said come on doc uh we got to get some breakfast head over to third attack and i said what are you talking about it's the middle of the night he said no it's uh oh 553 We need to get moving.

1:37:45And so he didn't realize what had happened to me. I didn't realize what happened. But I got up and went and got some breakfast, went over to the 3rd Attack Battalion aid station and did all of the stuff I was supposed to do because the man who died was from 3rd Attack. and so uh late that day i finally saw my medic and i said hey do you remember talking to me uh early this morning she said oh oh yeah and i said do you remember telling me that part of his brain was on my boot and she said yes sir i said and i took it and i put it in the potbelly stove and she said yes sir and i said what did i do then and she said well you just sat there I tried to talk to you, but you weren't responding.

1:38:41So I just got back in my sleeping bag and went to sleep. I had lost more than four hours that I can't account for. Jesus. You went into some sort of catatonic state or something. Yeah. And needless to say, there have been times that I have relived these issues in my dreams. Yeah. And I've got lots of other stories. Yeah. But they're not all good stories. Yeah. And you can't undo a story like that. Yeah. You know, this was one of my friends. I had done his flight physical two weeks before we went out there. Damn. And now I'm taking part of his brain and throwing it in a potbelly stove. Yeah. So tell me how that's going to get fixed.

1:39:47Yeah. You can't fix that. No, you can't. You can't do that. So I've got other stories like that that I don't want to go into. I'm sorry, man. Well, we're all here for you. I really appreciate you. having the courage to come out and like you said, you have David Grush's 6 o 'clock position. I think it's very cool that you're doing this and that you're being so open and sharing about your PTSD, which is in no way related to your testimony, which people should realize. If you were to blanket discount people with PTSD, you'd be like discounting half the military well you know a lot of people don't realize it but we have archaeological evidence that goes all the way back to the spartans and there was a doctor that had written a treatise back then and uh that treatise fit every category of ptsd now and so even the ancient spartans who we think of they were the greatest fighters no they they were humans and they still had ptsd back then absolutely i mean you can't i think you can't be human and and you you see these things of course you're going to dissociate somewhat and you're going to you know repress these like extreme feelings and if you don't have those extreme feelings there's something else kind of off with you around you know maybe sociopathy or something if you if you're very close with a person and you see something that bad happen to them, you know, especially if you're sensitive, you know, like, uh, well, I think Grush is another good example where he's, he's a, you could tell he's a, he's a sensitive guy.

1:41:33Uh, you're going to, you're going to store a lot. You're going to pick up a lot and, uh, you have to, you know, like the electrostatic discharge on the craft, you need to, you need to discharge that somehow, or it's going to, it's going to kind of eat at you. So, um, I admire you being open about all of this. I think it's, I think. This episode is brought to you by PayPal. You know how a mom's bag has everything? Sunscreen? Snacks? A stapler? The new PayPal app is like that, but for your money. Shop, pay, manage your account, and earn rewards all in one place. And with purchase protection on eligible items, biometric security, and pass keys, you're protected at every step.

1:42:13Download the new PayPal app to get started. See paypal.com slash protection terms. It's awesome. And nothing at all to be ashamed about. If anything, we should be honoring you for having served our country for so long. So, appreciate you. Well, I look back at the friends of mine who died, and I think, no, those are the real heroes. You know, sometimes it's very hard for people with survival guilt to accept somebody saying something good to them. Because, you know, in one circumstance, I was working on a good friend of mine, and I could not save his life, and he died.

1:43:06I did not feel like a hero after that yeah but that's par for the course with your job you're not going to have a 100 % success rate and you're going to have cases where no human could ever save them so I think you can't be too hard on yourself and I think just the fact that you were fulfilling that role which is one that I think most people would be too afraid to even do I think is a really amazing testament. And we don't know what happens when you die. So I always think that sometimes it's such a tragedy when people pass onto the other side. But they could be watching over you right now and so proud of what you're doing.

1:43:50And really happy. We don't know. As a doctor, I can assure you there are worse things than dying. Yeah. I do not want to have 99 % of my body burned and me survive in total agony. I do not want my brain to survive my body. I don't want my body to survive my brain. I've seen both, and they're not pretty. They're not pretty. Yeah, that sounds like purgatory, like you're walking around. That's probably the worst. I agree. Well, I do want you to know, I think you did the Lord's work, and you have nothing to be regretful about. Well, God drives everything in the universe. You know, science cannot disprove God because God made science.

1:44:49You know, one of the things that used to bug me when I was a kid and I was reading Genesis, it said that evening and the morning were the first day, and during the first day, God said, let there be light. Okay, so there's the light. Then it said the evening and the morning were the second day. Well, hold a second. There was light in the first day. Where did the light go that it got dark again?

1:45:27The sun wasn't formed. The earth just turned the opposite direction. Well, the thing is, I never had an explanation for that until I learned about the cosmic microwave background. And then when you understand the cosmic microwave background, you understand this is exactly what happened. At the time of the Big Bang, the temperatures in the early universe were so hot that all you had was plasma. It was so hot that no proton could hook onto an electron because it would break apart because there was so much energy. So for 380 ,000 years, there was an orange light that filled the universe, and it was this plasma.

1:46:19But at 380 ,000 years after the Big Bang, it finally cooled enough that for the first time, the proton could grab an electron, and boom, you've got a hydrogen atom. It's 380 ,000 years? 380 ,000 years. That's amazing. But once one proton could grab an electron, so could the other proton and the other proton. And so within a very short time, we went from this plasma-filled universe to the first atoms that were made. And the universe was completely clear. Yeah. But there was no light because until enough of these protons with the hydrogen atom got together and they started accumulating using electrostatic forces and gravity, they finally made such a big mass of all of these atoms that gravitational force compressed them and boom you you have the first generation star and so light returned to the universe and that's the light of the second day so you have the light of the big bang and then you have no light until you You get this hydrogen formation up until a star, and then you get light back, and so it matches with the Bible.

1:47:58I like that. I would say, you know, I believe in God, but I would say that our cosmological models of the universe are just super limited. And so I don't even know if the Big Bang is a thing. And the reason I say that is the James Webb telescope is now picking up all these early galaxies that were far earlier than we ever thought galaxies formed. And basically, if they exist in proportion to what was found in this little section of the universe, then they might better explain the cosmic microwave background than the actual Big Bang itself. And so my larger kind of point is like we just we just need a lot of epistemic humility around cosmological models.

1:48:43Like I think physics has a scaling problem. So if you have anomalies at low scale, we were talking about, you know, alternative propulsion, like the Casimir effect or Byfield Brown, like these things that like we don't we can't explain, you know, simply through general relativity or quantum mechanics. If you have any sort of anomalies at low scale, which of course we do, because at any given time in history, you have anomalies in your physical models of reality. And that's then they get updated. Then it's like your rocket is one degree off course. And so when you try to scale it to a cosmological model, you have this sort of error propagation and you're like way off.

1:49:21And then you have to come up with placeholders like dark matter, which is this glue which explains gravity's weakness, or cosmic inflation, which is sort of the expansion of the universe. Where if you were to ask a physicist what fundamental force is represented in cosmic inflation, they wouldn't have an answer for you. They'd say some sort of repulsive form of gravity. They'd say anti-gravity. And so you end up, I think, in this crazy kind of hyperspace, just trying to make the math work to comport with our human, very limited epistemology. There are all these issues with the cosmological constant.

1:49:59I mean, we could go on for a long time as far as issues with cosmology. So I think none of that—you can't use science to discount God because, I mean, the universe is just so miraculous, and the earth is so miraculous. You have the Planck's constant. If it were slightly different, we wouldn't have an atmosphere, right? And there's so many examples like that. So I don't know. What do you think? Well, the single-eggist problem is that if you don't have God, everything has to happen randomly. But the universe isn't random. How much do you know about chirality? I know a little bit about it. Okay. Well, chirality means that there is something that is going to occur in which you can have one version and you can have the opposite version.

1:51:03If you take the carbon of a methane molecule and you have four hydrogen molecules and let's just say 12, 3, 6, and 9. If you decide to make methyl chloride and you take a chlorine atom and put it at the 3 o 'clock position, the composition is CH3Cl. But now then, if you take the chlorine and you put it at the 9 o 'clock model instead of the 3 o 'clock model, the chemical formula is exactly the same. But if you shine polarized light through that, if it's at the 9 o 'clock position, it's going to turn the polarized light to the right. If the chlorine is at the 3 o 'clock position, it's going to turn it to the left.

1:52:03So you have a left-handed methyl chloride and a right-handed methyl chloride. Now, it seems like there shouldn't be a difference. The biologic systems will only function with one of those options. Yeah. Glucose, there's a left-handed glucose and a right-handed glucose. But the right-handed glucose is the only glucose that any plant will make, that any animal will consume, that any protoplasm will be able to manufacture energy from. So it's not 50-50. What is happening is that I put this in a book years ago, The Case for God. If you take a nickel and you flip it, 50-50 chances it's coming up heads.

1:52:55So it comes up heads. So you flip it again. It comes up heads again. So you say, hey, I'm going to Vegas. I'm going to find a casino where I can flip a nickel and bet on it. So you put$5 down. You flip it. It comes up heads. you got$10. You flip it again, you got$20. You flip it again, you've got$40. By the time you flip this thing 20 times and it came up heads every time, the casino is visiting you because you have a nickel that has been fixed. It has been altered. And so it is not a 50-50 chance it's 100 and zero percent and when you look at the chirality throughout the universe there are all of these multiple multiple multiple times when there should be a 50 50 reaction and it's 100 and zero percent yeah and and so if you are trying to explain this randomly, you don't have a real good case.

1:54:11If you say, there is a God who knows how to fix a nickel so that it comes up heads every time, very simple explanation. Yeah, and there are rational explanations basically for God, And then there are rational explanations for pure randomness. And I think the very fact that our world is so kind of, you know, this anthropic principle. Another good example would be water and ice, where normally the, you know, solid version of a molecular structure is heavier and more dense than the liquid version of that structure. and in the case of h2o because hydrogen and oxygen have to happen to when they bond and freeze they form these perfect crystal lattice structures they're actually less dense than water and so you end up basically where with this thing where like ice can float on water and if that weren't the case the earth would flood a million times over so you have this kind of anthropic principle around that planks constant the weak electro kind of you know you know that's that's anthropic all of these things, if they're, you know, the gravitational constant, if it is actually constant, if any of these things were slightly off, you know, the earth would not be habitable as we kind of know it.

1:55:30And then you get into physics principles like Heisenberg's uncertainty principle, where if you're only measuring, you know, position and momentum, one gets fuzzier as the other gets more accurate. And that sounds, that looks a lot like kind of a computational caching function. And so you end up with this model where there are really rational ways to actually explain God. You have even like in Vogue today is Nick Bostrom and like, you know, Elon Musk saying we live in a simulation. Well, it's like, who simulated us? Like, you know, God, you know, God is a sort of a placeholder that, you know, it's very hard to know exactly what that is.

1:56:08But, you know, for a lot of people who don't have sort of a Gnostic, you know, felt sense of God. But on the other side, I don't know if the other side is more rational is all I'm saying. I think there's like a lot of really interesting data points that point you towards, you know, we live in a creative and intelligent universe. Yeah, go for it. You know, when Albert Einstein created the special theory of relativity, people argued with him. And, you know, they argued with him so much between that and general relativity. that even though Einstein won a Nobel Prize, it wasn't for relativity because too many people still argued about that.

1:56:52He won it for the photoelectric effect. Special relativity, yeah. They were not going to give Einstein the credit he needed for relativity. General relativity was known as a novel curiosity until 1957, and that's when guys like now, like Kip Thorne, They call it the golden age of general relativity, basically post-Einstein, where he gets resuscitated and turned into this modern genius who explains everything kind of cosmologically. But before that, it was this kind of novel curiosity that was not at all established physics. It wasn't established physics, but it was in the Bible. General relativity.

1:57:35General relativity. So you've got this whole... Jesus said that with God, a thousand years is a day and a day is a thousand years. No, I think it's Peter, sorry. But at the time, that was an element of belief. They had no reason to believe it, but they were going to believe it. Now then, when you take scientists today, I'm not one of them, but there are scientists who can calculate for 24 hours to pass on Earth, an astronaut would have to be traveling at this speed, close to the speed of light, in order for them to see 1 ,000 years and this guy to see 24 hours. It's not a belief anymore. It's an equation.

1:58:27Well, another good example of that is one of my favorite lines is in the book of Mark. And I am, I'm going to paraphrase here, but it's something like, careful what you measure, because what you measure, you'll get more of. And it's this very, you know, seeking you shall find sort of, you know, comment. And I am really interested in this field of parapsychology, this idea, you know, like where your attentional sensor is pointed, you will receive more of that thing. And everybody, if you were to pull them and they're open to this somewhat, a lot of people, high percentage of people will say that empirically that happens in their life.

1:59:05That like, you know, they think about a thing and then it just pops and they think about a friend and the friend calls them, you know, that sort of thing. And so I think there's a lot of deep truth to the Bible that, again, people discount. They say it was, you know, a bunch of bullshit, you know, paranormal magic tricks or something. And I don't think that's right. I think there's some deep ontological truth that it's pointing at. Well, there's truth all over the world as well. You know, when you look at the Vedic texts, they're talking about the manas. Now then, at the time, those were the strangest things ever.

1:59:45But they described like an arrow that when it was shot, it would guide itself through the air until it hit its target. If you were watching an F-22 fighting a MiG-29 and they fire a heat-seeking air-to-air missile, that missile is going to guide itself until it hits its target. Totally. So this was a description in the Vedic texts thousands of years ago. Or what about the Vimanas, which describe literally UFOs with spinning mercury inside, which then get later. I mean, you have a famous UFO whistleblower named Edgar Fouché, claimed to be at Area 51. And he was working on the, you know, or I think he was aware of the TR3A and B series from Northrop Grumman.

2:00:41And it involves spinning mercury. And so who knows? But I've had in your chair a Senate staffer for the intelligence community, Kirk McConnell, bring this up to me. So, you know, you have to trust me, a crazy podcaster or whatever. Like he brought this up both in the context of Die Glocke, this German bell, which is, I think, no longer fictional. We know there was something there. There's literally like a rig, a picture of a rig there. And Nick Cook has done all this interesting investigation into anti-gravity research. mid-century has gone in there. And so, you know, the Glocka probably existed, and there's supposed to be spinning mercury there.

2:01:19And then you have Edgar Foucher saying later in the TR3A and B series, you had spinning mercury. And then the Vamanas, spinning mercury. I don't know. You know, you can take some of the models of so-called birds from South America. and if you show them to American grade school kids, they're going to look at them and say, those are airplanes. Why? Because they look like airplanes. Now, then these things are thousands of years old. Why do they look like airplanes? Could it be because they were airplanes? You know, we're not nearly as smart as we think we are. I agree. Also, if a cataclysm were to occur, you'd have no idea.

2:02:11It would be so buried. You know, talking about like something happened. I mean, we have very, very little record of the dinosaurs and they were wiped out, you know, 66 million years ago. So you could have a civilization, you know, you could have this sort of S-curve thing with civilizational cycles and cataclysms, and it'd be hard to know until you first discover the thing. You know, right now, civilization is getting older progressively. Every, call it 30 or 40 years, we find, oh, now we have Gobekli Tepe. Oh, actually, Gobekli Tepe isn't the earliest, you know, megalithic site. So I just think our understanding of the past, as you're implying it.

2:03:17up to get started. See paypal.com slash protection terms is extremely limited. And there's actually, you know, all sorts of forbidden archeology where you have like the antique theorem mechanism, which is a little computer with astronomical alignments found, you know, in the, uh, I think the Aegean or the, you know, and it's undeniable. Yeah, it's undeniable. No, that is a fact. Yeah. So that you get an accumulation of these things and it's like, well, maybe our, maybe our understanding of our past is just way off um so fascinating so one one thing i want to you know getting back to your the core case is it is interesting with a lot of these testimonies where you flip one switch and you could explain what you saw not by them because maybe that was just told the major and maybe the major related to you but it could be explained by just a terrestrial all equally exciting but anti-gravity line of aerospace and we were talking off air before the show about the byfield brown effect and like you know exotic propulsion do you think that it's possible that what you saw was actually maybe just some extremely exciting human propulsion breakthrough?

2:04:32I think that what I saw was human built. Why we would design it that way, I could not prove one way or the other. But knowing aerospace as I do, because I dealt with rockets, I dealt with the space shuttle, I dealt with F-16s, I dealt with H-1 attack helicopters. there is nothing that would be advantageous aerodynamically for us to build that. And for somebody to go off on a crazy tangent and say, I'm going to build this even though it's not aerodynamic and it doesn't show any basic advantage over any of our current aircraft. to me that that's nuts that's crazy i think it's a little nuts too and for context for the audience the 80s was really the stealth revolution so you have the f-117 coming out in the early 80s and then you have the b2 coming out in the late 80s and obviously the b2 had probably been around for a little bit longer but like billions of dollars were being spent on these you know programs and that was really kind of the the state of the art and it is hard to believe you know america did have a flying saucer program proven nobody would argue with the avro car so the avro car uh was in the 50s and 60s and it was at right uh airfield and you had but that was a joke it kind of a joke but the point is is that you had a radial gas flowing turbine engine but you had all these issues aerodynamically with it.

2:06:22It couldn't get out of ground effect. That's the same thing that happened with Vanguard. It couldn't get out of ground effect. It had this sort of Kawanda effect wobbly thing going on. Well, with helicopters, when we fly helicopters, when we are moving forward, if you go fast enough, you will finally ground effect and you'll go into translational lift. And then you will ascend. But if you're having trouble with your engine, you want to stay close to the ground because the force of the rotor wash hitting the ground gives you the equivalent of additional lift until you lose it and you lose ground effect.

2:07:06I do find it interesting that right when Ray Airfield is working on the Avrocar, they're also sponsoring this conference with the top theoretical physics research in the country at UNC Chapel Hill, University of North Carolina. and the guy who was running University of North Carolina's, you know, Institute of Field Physics with this guy Bryce DeWitt, one of the top theoretical physicists in the world at the time, was a guy named Ognew Bonson. And he had in his diaries, you know, that were found years later, it was the Space Brothers came to me and said, get me in touch with Townsend Brown because I want to build a spaceship.

2:07:51And so I wonder, you have this Avrocar project, it's kind of a joke, it's not really working, but you have a dedicated theoretical physics group, you know, under this guy, Josh Goldberg at Wright Airfield. And then they're sponsoring elite, you know, theoretical work on the subject. And then the same guy who's, you know, basically like, you know, being a benefactor, being sponsored by Wright Airfield, is also hiring Townsend Brown, who probably made all these interesting updates in the world of anti-gravity propulsion, then you have to ask yourself the question, could we make that much progress in 20 years?

2:08:29And I don't know the answer to that. Well, with what you just said, I always think of Penn and Teller. I love to watch Penn and Teller. And one of the things they always talk about magic, when they say the magic is over here, you know the magic is really over here this is where they're wanting you to focus so that you're not paying attention over here exactly so when these companies say look we made this thing look at how fancy it is that's to get the people's attention so they don't look at this other thing that they're spending all the money on that's right well that's what i think now is the avro car was probably a cover for something deep because all the rumors are that the roswell craft was taken to right airfield and so you had this yeah kind of you know distraction of like kind of this joke of a thing the avro car um and then you have like more serious stuff going on but i think they used the avro car as a front to get specific nazi scientists like there's this guy richard mita who went and worked for the avro car uh in canada which is you know before it moved to um right pat It was in Canada under a guy named John Frost.

2:09:48And John Frost, who ran the Avrocar project on behalf of, I think, British aircraft. It was like British aircraft and CIA were co-running this thing. He was going out to recruit all these secret Nazi scientists who had worked under Hans Kammler. People like, you know, he went to try to recruit Victor Schauberger and they end up sort of stealing his work. But yeah, Meet this other guy, Henry Kawanda, which the Kawanda effect is named after, is we know was a consultant for Project Y, which is what the Abrocar project turned into. It was Y and Silverbug. So I think they were using it as a funnel where it's like, this is a joke.

2:10:25We're not making progress. Let's get all these Nazi scientists to work on these things. But I think there was something very vital underneath all of it that was actually happening. And the crazy thing about your testimony, you're talking about the craft being charged. I've heard that a couple of times. Apparently, this one firsthand witness who claimed to work on a craft at Wright Airfield that was retrieved in the Aztec recovery in 1948 in March in New Mexico. he uh uh he says that the the the craft was like hooked up to these like extremely high powered transformers and it would go translucent when it got powered up so that's interesting and then there are a couple of other you know people who say similar things like that like you know a ton of power needs to be sort of mainlined into the craft and so it's probably limited by its by its power source like towns and brown was always looking for a power source for his megavolt range electricity.

2:11:29So, you know, and it was always going to be this kind of nuclear power source, like possibly cold fusion, like a low energy nuclear reaction or something. But before you get that, before you get the cold fusion, you have to pump it full of megavolt range electricity. Well, I think one of the things that people don't really seem to grasp in general is that you have to take baby steps before you take big steps. And so recovering a craft in 47, well, okay, you have all the details to it, but you can't make it. An example that I like to use is the F-22. If we took an F-22 fighter in our day, which is the most advanced air-to-air platform that we have and we take it back to 1914 and we say okay u.s engineers we want the united states to have the best aircraft that'll shoot anything out of the sky you can win the war with it and all of this stuff and then they go look at it and they say, why does the skin feel so funny?

2:12:50Oh, well, that's radar absorbent material. Well, what's radar? Oh, well, it's a radio wave that you bounce off. And according to how long it takes to get back, you can find the range and distance for it. And they say, well, where's the propeller uh all of our aircraft are made out of wood with the propeller i don't see any wood and i don't see a propeller um are you sure this thing flies even though this is only 100 years of human technology those 1914 engineers could not begin to understand the f-22 much less rebuild it if we can do this in 100 years of human technology, what would happen in 10 ,000 years of non-human technology?

2:13:49How far behind would we be? You know, when Leonardo da Vinci was alive, there were four elements in the universe, water fire air and um what am i thinking earth earth and they believed those were the four elements if you asked any scientist at that time that would be their answer now then if you said um uh what do you think about quantum theory and say, what are you even talking about? Well, atoms are not the smallest things. You can have quarks and you can have gluons. You have to decide whether or not they're going to be bosons or fermions. And bosons will always have a whole number factor of the Planck constant.

2:14:54And they're going to say, what are you talking about? Now then, these would be the smartest, most brilliant people. And they think they know what physics is all about. But they're totally and completely off base. So what do you think these beings are that have these crafts that fly that maybe gift us their craft? If our star is less than 5 billion years old, but there was another star in our same galaxy that is 6 billion years old, and the life formation followed a similar pathway to us, their physics is 1 million years ahead of us. And they're going to look at our physics and say, look, they're still fighting with string theory.

2:15:54What's wrong with these idiots? They think to go into space, you have to have a chemical rocket to go in space. No wonder they can't go anywhere.

2:16:08what appears to be magic can be nothing more than advanced technology and we are so proud of everything we've learned but we were so proud of what we learned in 1850 and we thought we knew a lot in 1850. Maxwell hadn't even come out with his laws yet. If you go to 1600, you know. Well, that's what they're saying with electromagnetism is we know all the known laws in the universe. The electromagnetism explains it all. We're at the end of history, and this was immediately pre-Max Planck and, you know, quanta and the whole quantum revolution. Right up until we were proven completely wrong. Yep. Yeah, totally.

2:16:57No, it's a, I w you always will go do well if you bet against the current physical model of reality. You always do well, you'll always be if you bet against the house, if you bet against the Neil deGrasse Tyson's of your time, you will always make money. Yeah, because those people are always going to be wrong. It's such hubris to say we are at the end of history. And we know everything. It's that's insane. Or even to say that we are just rounding out the final margins. Like, you know, there are little errors that we just have to correct for, and then we're finished. That's never how it works. It always, the next paradigm, completely upends our understanding of things.

2:17:38If you have a really terrible shot with a pistol, if you stand 100 yards directly in front of them, the safest place to be is where they're aiming. because they're always going to miss. So you don't know where they're going to miss. But if you're a lousy shot with a pistol at 100 yards, you're not going to hit anybody. Yep. That's a great way to put it. Yeah, so that's why I think, I don't know, I worry about institutions which have become increasingly closed-minded, and they used to kind of foster real intellectual heterodoxy and open-mindedness, And I think they've become increasingly like, you know, you have to tow the party line.

2:18:24And if you don't, you know, you're out. So I would go kind of long individuals and short institutions over the next, you know, 10 years. I think in many ways we might be in a sort of melt up in the markets, you know, just around AI and stuff. But ultimately, we're probably in this sort of recession already or bear market. And then the only thing we have a bull market in right now is ideas. We're in a crazy kind of ideas bull market. And so that's kind of exciting. But there can be times when we can't tell the difference between good ideas and bad ideas. In 1972, when they were first planning the space shuttle, they said, well, what happens when it lands in California and we have to get it back to the launch site in Florida?

2:19:16So they thought, well, we could put it on a train and have a special route for that. Well, we could put it on a boat and bring it through the Panama Canal. Well, there was this one low-level scientist that said, what if we put it on the back of a 747? And they said, shut up. The real people are talking here. So they keep going through all this stuff. And then finally, one of the big guys says, we could put it on the back of a 747 and fly it back. And they say, what a great idea. That's wonderful. And this guy said, I said that four weeks ago. But yeah, well, no one was listening to you. We're listening to this guy because he's big time.

2:20:01Yeah. Well, it's so much of science is social proof and herd like. and you expect it to be the most immune from herd-like thinking. But an example I always like is, you know who the first person who discovered that we live in a solar system that revolves around the sun and not the earth is? Do you know?

2:20:24I would think it was one of the Greek philosophers. So that's amazing because most people would say Copernicus, 16th century, pre-Galileo actually observing it. And in fact, it was one of the Greek philosophers, this guy Aristarchus. Yeah, well, one of these guys was able to take a stick, put it in the ground, and measure the distance and do the mathematics. And he estimated the entire length around the world, and he was like within 3%. Whoa, who is this? I don't remember, but I'm sure you could... That's so cool. But because he studied the shadow of a stick. You're pretty smart. I feel like you're pretty self-taught in all these sort of physics and astronomy, and it's impressive.

2:21:24Well, think of that guy. How smart did he have to be? Well, that's the thing. It's like I think a lot of, you know, this sort of modern version of intelligence is just it's like you have like adornments in your hat or something, you know, a cap in your feather or whatever. But you could say a bunch of shit that makes you sound smart. But like so much of real intelligence should just be like childlike thinking about the universe, like forgetting all priors and almost being not super socialized. socialized so that there's you're not just adhering to the fashionable ideas of the time and just really thinking about things and kind of a you know this is an overused term but like a first principles way like seeing things for what they are that's a very rare thing there was there was a greek inventor that made a circle a sphere and had one little spigot sticking out one side one little spigot sticking out the other, if you put water in it and heat it, it becomes a spinning wheel from the steam.

2:22:44It's essentially a steam engine. And everybody thought, hey, that's a cute joke. Now then, if he had just taken a chain and hooked that up to a chariot, as the steam toy goes around, it turns the... From athletic stuff like a full-court pickup game, swish, to athletic-ish stuff like a half-mile stroll. Get those steps in! Head to Sierra or Sierra.com for the brands you want at the prices that let you do it all. From athletic to athletic, Sierra's got it. Chain. All of a sudden, we've got the Industrial Revolution. Then. 1 ,800 years earlier. 1 ,800 years earlier. You could have radical breaks and junctures in reality.

2:23:35It's almost like technology is like timeline hopping or something. Like if you create something. You know, I think about this with the steampunk revolution. You know, where, you know, it's like William Gibson sci-fi novels is like this alternative, you know, second industrial revolution where we weren't using gas engines and we were just using, you know, steam or whatever. And like there are different, I don't know, like the semiconductor. That's somewhat arbitrary. What if we had like some sort of biological computation or something? We're programming little like rat neurons and like that's how we were.

2:24:08That's a whole computational tech tree, you know, outside of silicon. And so it's so interesting how we just get routed in these different, and sometimes it's a cul-de-sac, like string theory, where it's like, I don't think that's going anywhere. We've got to figure out something new. It's fascinating. Well, as I said, we're never as smart as we think we are. And every time we have a major breakthrough, when we look on the other side, we say, well, now that we did this, we're going to need a couple more major breakthroughs up there because of what we see ahead. So even Einstein, when he came up with his miracle year in 1905, he was feeling really good in 1906.

2:24:58But he wasn't feeling so good in 1917 when he couldn't prove his general relativity theory. And of all people, it would take an enemy of Germany, Eddington, to do the work on capturing the deviation of a star around the sun during an eclipse to prove that Albert Einstein was correct. Totally. And even then, it wasn't fully accepted. And he also was a foundational player in quantum mechanics. He really helped establish it. And people don't really give him credit for that part of his work. But he had all sorts of issues with quantum mechanics as this kind of ontological framework. And he would have debates with Niels Bohr in the Copenhagen School about what this meant and what entanglement meant and how it was even possible.

2:25:51Even though he was kind of responsible for a lot of early entanglement work, EPR. That's Einstein, Podolsky, and Rosen. Well, what did he get his Nobel Prize in? photoelectric effect yeah a photon of light he he received his nobel prize for a quantum theory yes and his general relativity uh never got a nobel prize and the photoelectric effect even when he discovered it in 1905 hadn't been experimentally proven it was just a theory um and then it was later experimentally proven but um yeah obviously the photoelectric effect has had a you know in some ways i don't know i'd be curious if somebody were to like you know do it do research on this but whether general relativity or special relativity has had a greater impact on our reality because the photoelectric effect you wouldn't have like a tv right like it's like literally just light in its interaction with like metal surfaces and that's pretty key to like everything even a lot of the stuff in quantum mechanics and then general relativity you know that feels to me again i'm a student physics idiot but like feels a little more important for like cosmology and then like i think we're kind of off on a lot of cosmological stuff so and it's kind of put a governor on propulsion you know where it's like you know uh the speed of light is just the speed limit it's the global speed limit so i wonder if um maybe maybe maybe actually the nobel prize committee back then you know knew what it was doing or something.

2:27:25Well, Bose, the mathematician from India, he was writing really great lectures. And he sent one to Albert Einstein and said, nobody's listening to me. And he said, well, I'll put my name on it and then they'll listen. And so, you know, bosons are named after Bose. so you know it's just crazy that this guy that nobody believed from india that no one would pay attention to as soon as albert einstein puts his name on it oh you're brilliant yeah right up until albert einstein said you're brilliant you were stupid right yeah we're we're very uh memetic we we, we like what other people like. And if they're of high stature, then all of a sudden that's this like really important stamp of approval.

2:28:22And so, um, yeah, well, where do you think disclosure is headed? Do you think we'll get some exciting, you know, uh, revelation near term? Do you think it'll stay in this sort of liminal space of some people believing others not, or what do you think? I think the simple biggest problem is bureaucratic inertia. It takes somebody who is really strong in their beliefs to step out from the group of people who are all agreeing how smart they are and say, listen, y 'all are smart, but you're not smart about this one thing. And so you have to have the other people agree that, yes, what you're talking about is true before the entire group will finally begin to act as though it's true.

2:29:21I believe that we are to a point that, realistically, we don't need to prove that UAP are real. We have plenty of evidence that UAP are real. But as long as we're still fighting the battle, UAP are real, we're missing the bigger battle, which is what are we going to do with it? And so we need to stop fighting over whether it's real because it is real. So now we need to figure out what on earth are we going to do with it? You know, that guy came up. What do you think we should do with it? And I think we need to release a large part of the information. Being from the military, I know that if I have an advantage, if I'm flying an F-16 and I have an advantage over another jet, I'm not going to tell you what my advantage is.

2:30:22However, there are so many elements of what UAPs mean to humans, to technology, that I think it is irresponsible to continue to say there's nothing to see here. No, we can already see it. When you stand up and say that, you just look stupid. Yeah. And then if we accept that, we look stupid. We need to be moving beyond stupidity, and we need to be making progress. The only way we're going to make progress is to get meaningful disclosure. But the people who own the processes are the ones who will determine whether or not the disclosure occurs. Do you think, you know, Bob Lazar, who is reportedly an EG &G employee, not too many years before your sighting, four years, do you think that your story adds corroboration to his stated work at Area 51, reverse engineering a UFO?

2:31:28I would say it does. Now, his story is very complex. So I don't know which elements I would say this really adds to it when this one doesn't add much to it. The only way I could really judge that was if I ever met him, and we had a long discussion, just the two of us, with nobody listening. But to a certain extent, one of the things I mentioned was that if you take away the oddness to the corners and the sections of his craft and smooth it out, as I've described with this egg, it would be very much like his sports model. Now, I don't know if they're at all related, but, boy, it would be a lot like it.

2:32:32Yeah, it sounds very similar. It sounds just like a smoother pearly white version of it, where you don't have this kind of cockpit, but it just kind of smooths. Yeah. Fascinating. Well, if you look at the early aircraft that was used in combat aviation, and then you look at the smooth surfaces of the F-22 and the F-35, you don't see big fat wings. You don't see vertical stabilizers. You don't see great big engines with propellers on them. They're both flight vehicles, and at the time they were both viable. But the modern version is smooth so that you're not going to reflect radar waves. Well, when they first made the fighting aircraft in World War I, there were no radars.

2:33:36They didn't worry about a radar cross-section. they had no idea about that and even in world war ii um we were able to make some progression but it was easier to just drop a bunch of aluminum pieces and call it window because it reflects so much of the radar white waves and and then we can sneak our airplane in stealth was dropping pieces of aluminum from your airplane. That was as good as it got at that point. So we continue to make steady progress. The only way to really make progress is to give the best construction capabilities to the smartest people. I love it. Well, on that note, I guess you brought these really interesting patches.

2:34:33Do you have maybe one or two favorites that we can just show the audience? I think these were really cool. The Joint Stars Desert Storm is one of my favorites. No, that's the one that we used before Desert Storm. This one? This one, yeah. That's pretty awesome. Do you want to show that to the camera? In fact, if we hold the two of them together, you'll be able to see the difference. So this one shows Saudi Arabia and the sand in the color, and it says Desert Storm. The original one, if you can name me that one. This one? Yeah, this is the one that I wore during the whole time we were developing it.

2:35:23And so it showed our aircraft. It sort of gives clues as to what it was, but it really doesn't tell you what Joint Stars was about. This one shows, hey, we did this in Desert Storm. And after Joint Stars was demonstrated in Desert Storm, we decided we will never go into combat without the synthetic aperture radar that was developed by Joint Stars. Very cool. And then finally, I wanted to show the audience, you have playing cards here, which if you're involved in a hostage situation, maybe you're the hostage keeper, right? Yeah. That was what we used back in the Cold War. So this is the Cold War.

2:36:11And so these were actual playing cards that you can play cards with. Yeah. But the purpose was that we had English and Russian. So if we wanted to show what a word is in English, they would read it in Russian, and it was a means for us to communicate. So here you have medicine, and then you have the Russian word for medicine. Yeah, I'll let you pronounce the Russian one. I can't read that. Then you have Jeep, and then you have the Russian word for Jeep. So it's like if you're trying to communicate with them, you can do that through – build a rapport with your hostage through these playing cards.

2:37:00Some Cold War memorabilia. It's pretty amazing. Well, Mr. Rogers, Greg, it's been an absolute honor. Man, this is really fun, and I really admire your courage, And I appreciate you speaking out not only about your experience, but about, you know, the other things you've faced as a flight surgeon and as a director of aerospace medicine, who is essential to all sorts of operations as evidenced by your various patches. but also to your core testimony, which is just fascinating and I think should be added to the public repository, the public canon of official sightings. And many people see close encounters of the first, second, and third kind out in the wilderness or in the air or whatever, but yours is in an official capacity.

2:37:56And so I think those are in a league of their own. And that's really interesting. So appreciate you. One of the most interesting things was that I recently found out that the Jesse Marcel Library in Montana has put up an article about me in their library. Wow. So I'm going to speak to him later this month on the 19th, and we'll do a Zoom call. but I never expected my name and Jesse Marcel's to be associated. Well, it makes sense because Jesse Marcel Sr. was an Army intelligence officer, but Junior was an Air Force flight surgeon. So there you go. You're part of the lineage. And it's pretty amazing.

2:38:42And I think for years to come, people will remember this testimony. It's a very important one. And I want to give a huge shout-out, by the way, to Chris Leto. Oh, absolutely. So thanks so much, Greg. This is an absolute honor. I really appreciate you, man. Okay. Well, I appreciate being here. All right. Cool.