The Hidden UFO Program Is Real - Here’s How It Works! (ft. UAPGerb)

29:41in the 1890s. And if that was like, you know, at his time, you know, 60s and 70s, you would think that there would be this through line between then and now. You obviously have, you know, rumors about Bobby Ray Inman, you know, being sort of involved, you know, with this stuff as well. And so maybe he would be somebody at the Cheney level. Do you anticipate that any of the recovered vehicles would ever become available for technological research outside of the military circles? Again, I honestly don't know. Ten years ago, the answer would have been no. Whether time has evolved and beginning to become more open on it is a possibility.

30:25Let's actually go through a couple of those below Chaney, kind of at the tip of the spear for the administrator level. I think a lot of individuals who have spearheaded or are spearheading or have high level exposure to UFO legacy programs have extensive backgrounds in the NRO. So I have a couple of documents here. Maybe we can go through a couple of these. Let's do it. These are just kind of people that I'd love to talk about. Cool. So for the NRO, you have, maybe we could start with Bobby Ray Inman. Yeah. Bobby Ray Inman, when he spoke to Bob Eschler in 1989, 1988, he referred NASA mission specialist Bob Eschler to Sumner Shapiro, director of naval intelligence, as well as R.

31:11Everett or R. Everett Evans-Heinman. His naming convention's a little weird. Heinman was the NRO program B director from 1982 to 1989. NRO Program B was essentially a consolidation of reconnaissance activities between the NRO and CIA's Directorate of Science and Technology. And the ground element of NRO Program B was established at Pine Gap Australia. I know Pine Gap is super spooky, but... They call it Australia's Area 51. Right, right. And Bobby Ray Inman basically said to Ashley, if you want to know about crash retrieval programs and recovered technical vehicles, go talk to Heinemann. Other interesting people with high level connections to the NRO include Donald Kerr.

31:51Donald Kerr was mentioned in Okie Shannon's 1985 Advanced Theoretical Physics Working Group documents. This was a physics group held at BDM International in 1985 at their McLean facility. Super, super, super interesting thing that apparently like John Alexander spoke at. Stubblebine was involved with all this stuff. And I'll put, uh, yeah. And Okie Shannon's notes. It's like, ask Don Kerr for funding when talking about like UFO reverse engineering programs. Whoa. Uh, Donald Kerr was of course high level position in the NRO. He was director of EG &G. He was director of Los Alamos, uh, director of SAIC, deputy director of the CIA's director of science and technology.

32:35So there's this specific weird, there's this really specific weird kind of pairing relationship between the NRO and CIA DS &T. And with that CIA DS &T, back in 2003, the CIA Directorate of Science and Technology, which maybe we'll describe directorates a little bit. So I said the NRO had program B at Pine Gap. Early days of the NRO, it had program A, B, C, and D. At a time in the 90s or so, this was reorganized into directorates, just kind of subgroups under the NRO, under the CIA. So I think a lot of UFO legacy programs are stuffed within these directorates. And to speak about the NRO and the CIA's Directorate of Science and Technology, there's a lot of really weird crossovers there.

33:22So I think it's important to look at individuals with connections to NRO, CIA, DS &T, two high-level almost cabinet positions within the United States government and the MITRE Corporation, which is an FFRDC. There's a very tangled web between NRO, DS &T, MITRE, and then two offices within the United States government I'd like to talk about a little bit. This would be the Office of the Undersecretary of Defense for Acquisition and Sustainment, OSUD, AD &S. This has previously gone through numerous naming conventions as the Office of the Undersecretary for Defense for Acquisition, renamed into the Office of the Undersecretary of Defense for Acquisition and Technology, then renamed to the Office of the Undersecretary for Defense for Acquisition Technology and Logistics, finally to its naming convention today for Acquisition and Sustainment.

34:14The OSTAT acquisition and technology is the office kind of named in the Wilson Davis notes as holding kind of records to special carve out holdover programs that housed kind of direct access to legacy programs that flag officer Thomas Wilson allegedly started to look through where he found the watch committee, high level gatekeepers for UFO legacy programs. One of the individuals he spoke about who was kind of director of the ALSTAT at that time and permanent SAPOC, Special Access Program Oversight Committee member, was Mr. Paul Kaminsky. Paul Kaminsky is an individual that I think would be interesting to look at a little more in regards to UFO legacy programs.

34:53He was, of course, in the ALSTAT and he was, of course, on the board of trustee for the MITRE Corporation now. And so the ALSTAT that's named all throughout the Wilson Davis notes, that is a Department of Defense position. Its counter position in the intelligence community is called the DDNI-ATNF, the Deputy Director for National Intelligence for Acquisition Technology and Facilities. So the ALSTAT are now, notice today, Undersecretive Defense for Acquisition and Sustainment, and this DDNI are two sides of the same coin. These two offices, according to the GAO, they have oversight over NRO program acquisitions.

35:35Interesting. So that DDNI, AT &F, is rather interesting. On one hand, you have Paul Kaminsky, who was ALSTAT and MITRE. On the other hand, you have somebody like Don Myerix right here, who is MITRE and DD &I, AT &F, with a long agency background, long, very weird agency background. Former deputy director of the CIA for science and technology. And we know a couple of connections there is Glenn Gaffney, obviously, director of science and technology for the CIA. Are any of you willing to name specific gatekeepers within the root cell of the UAP SAP Federation? I have a name for you. Go ahead. Glenn Gaffney, CIA.

36:17Glenn Gaffney, CIA. Now you have all this congressional testimony that he specifically, you know, blocked this, you know, moving of exotic, you know, non-human origin technology that was under Lockheed that was supposed to go to Bigelow Aerospace in 2008. and Glenn Gaffney apparently bought this. Oh, twice. 2008, 2010. Crazy. And you can thank the Arrow Historical Report Volume 1 for talking that out. 2008, it seems there was a first attempt that was blocked by James Clapper. Whoa. The second event was the Kona Blue failed PSAP or Perspective Special Access Program. So James Clapper blocked a movie?

36:51That's what the Arrow Historical Report Volume 1 says. Well, that's interesting because isn't James Clapper in the Age of Disclosure movie? So what's up with that? I don't know. Why is he playing both sides? General Clapper, the former DNI in the documentary, I certainly applaud him for at least speaking out in general. He goes on, I believe, I've only seen clips of Age of Disclosure, not the whole thing, where there was a program when he was the director of national intelligence where they were tracking these vehicles over Area 51, of course, the famed classified test location. And I'm a little bit disappointed as a fellow Air Force officer and certainly General Clapper rose to the ranks as three-star general.

37:32That's all he said in the documentary, that that was a program he was aware of. In fact, without being inappropriate, I will say that General Clapper was well aware of the crash retrieval issue, managed the crash retrieval issue. And when he was the DNI, USDI, and DIA director, he placed people in critical roles to manage this issue. both publicly and I'll just say non-publicly as well. And I'll allow the audience to still what I'm saying at the risk of being inappropriate or going too far with my discussion. The director of national intelligence, James Clapper, calls me, Mike, I need you to go through all of it.

38:12I need the team to go through all of NSA's holding all of its files. And I need everything that you have on UFOs. And I'm like, what, sir? You want me to do a review of our databases on UFOs? You see, the CIA DS &T, according to Kona Blue, has had direct involvement in blocking UFO legacy programs. Recall the excellent reporting of Christopher Sharp, a UK journalist. Yes. He broke a great story about the CIA's Office of Global Access. Yes. Which was created under the DS &T in the year 2003. Yeah. That is basically tasked with foreign UFO crash retrievals. This is a logistics agency. This is a combat support agency.

38:51So, you know, let's just say in Honduras, an egg-shaped craft goes down. The CIA OGA would be responsible for getting, you know, JSOC tier one adjacent assets and probably the Department of Energy nuclear emergency support team and other assets down to retrieve the craft. do you know the first director of uh oga the office of global access doug wolf this is doug wolf do you know doug wolf additionally spent 16 years in the nro executive he was the executive assistant to the director of the national reconnaissance office whoa he was indeed cia dst deputy director he indeed started the oga whoa and indeed he was the ddni atnf the deputy director for national intelligence for acquisition technology and facilities who has direct oversight over NRO acquisitions.

39:37Crazy. There's a ton of people like that. There's an individual named Mark Moynihan, if you find him on LinkedIn. He's a total spook of spooks. This guy, DD &I, AT &F. This guy, CIA, OGA, CIA, DS &T, NRO. So there seems to be this really interesting relationship with people who have been labeled as UFO Legacy Program gatekeepers. And one of those gatekeeping offices, the DS &T and the NRO. It seems like this revolving door old boys club where you go from the DSNT of the CIA to, you know, MITRE Corporation or, you know, some other federally funded research and development. You go to RAND or whatever.

40:14Or you go to the NRO or, you know. I can't stress this enough about the importance of MITRE. Yeah, yeah. The DOE National Labs, you know, Sandia, Oak Ridge, Lawrence Livermore, Los Alamos, those are critical. But the importance of MITRE. MITRE is the most overlooked entity in all of this subject. Why do you think that is? Because they deal with naval programs. Interesting. Subject of USO. And what's their role with respect to the Navy? Is it like tech protection or is it? Probably everything. UFO related stuff or? InduSec, industrial security to SAP management, to monitoring large craft under the water, to material exploitation, to briefing oversight channels that exist.

40:57Yeah. To doing all sorts of stuff. The MITRE pipeline of people who have worked for MITRE, as you can see, Paul Kaminsky, Don Myricks, Donald Kerr, numerous people who have allegedly been associated with UFO legacy programs end up at MITRE. Well, it's funny. I know them in the context of like holding these anti-gravity conferences. Yeah. And like, I think Ning Li spoke at one in the early 2000s. She was this famous Chinese-American, you know, anti-gravity researcher at University of Alabama Huntsville. she claimed to make all these breakthroughs and like weight reduction yeah above internal mass reduction right yeah yeah amazing and um or i think it's weight reduction which is a little distinct from mass reduction you're right yeah um but but yes same sort of ridiculously crazy concept if you can do it you know yeah and and um and she's saying all this stuff about gravitons and you know sort of these you know uh alternating current rotating superconductors she's saying she wants to create free energy for the world she's citing how put off and talking about electrically polarizable vacuums and stuff.

41:58And then she gets a contract, I believe, with the army. She gets security clearance and then nobody ever really hears from her again. She gets hit by a car. It's sort of really weird. But she was seen last publicly speaking at this MITRE Corporation conference about anti-gravity. Yeah, I met her and I did sit down and I interviewed her. And this was at a conference in 2003 just outside of Washington, D.C., run by them or overseen by the MITRE Corporation, and it was looking at, I think, high-frequency gravitational waves. And, you know, she was an interesting character because she had been involved in some of those NASA experiments I mentioned earlier about rotating superconductors and weight loss experiments.

42:50and um she she chaired one of the sessions i talked to her afterwards about it all she had this view that this was science and technology that should be for the people it should be you know very um uh philanthropic in its you know nature and outcomes and then i don't know sort of how soon after that it was that she sort of went off grid certainly probably about within within a year that she just disappeared and no one knew what happened to her that's like just recently there was a slide deck not really leaked but kind of rediscovered about eric davis doing a teleportation study for the mitre corporation back to 2019 and so when because you have people online like ashton forbes who like talk a lot about teleportation like he's really sure that like you could teleport like a macro scale human being or something when i've spoken to eric davis He seems to be, you know, like talking about like quantum teleportation saying like that's already established science.

43:50And, you know, that sounds insane because the word teleportation is in it. But like, is that necessarily involved in like UFO tech or is it? I don't know. Yeah. So much of the science and physics is so far beyond me. Me too. As boring as it sounds, I like the money. I like the program names. I like the offices. is because while we're speaking about kind of these administrators, NRO, CIA, DSMT, and kind of their string pullers and the DD &I, AT &F, and ALSTAD are now OUSD, ANS, you talked about Kona Blue, which was the failed prospective special access program that occurred in 2010. And we can actually thank Arrow for releasing that slide deck, weirdly enough.

44:31This was to be a DHS-sponsored USAP, unacknowledged special access program, for Lockheed Martin to divulge some craft materials to the OSAT program and Bigelow Advanced Aerospace Space Studies, BAS. And these materials were supposed to be bits and pieces of craft, craft haul, craft bulkhead. I myself have heard this involved the Kingman wreckage from the 1953 Kingman, Arizona crash. And that Lockheed Martin Vice President Jim Ryder, James Ryder, was the one who wanted to get rid of these materials for who knows. And conventionally, Glenn Gaffney, CIA DS &T deputy director, was the one who put the kibosh and killed this.

45:15Our mutual friend Rob Jones has done some amazing work. He also offers in the name Robert Cardio, who is actually DD &I and head of the NGA, the National Geospatial Intelligence Agency. And while I think Robert Cardio was absolutely involved, and people should go look up Robert Cardio if they're unfamiliar with him, I think this was a DS &T operation, specifically Glenn Gaffney, to put the kibosh on this. So in my Lockheed project, while looking into Kona Blue, I kind of came across that there may have been a conflict of interest within Lockheed Martin, maybe an insider in Lockheed who helped put the kibosh on the program.

45:51This is an individual, and I'll pass you this in a second, named Mary K. Sturtevant. This is a name that it was never really floated around. I made a tweet about this begging Chris Mellon to give some information on her to which he has declined in both a public outreach on Twitter and private messages. I have not heard from him. What did he say? I know it just nothing. Oh, nothing. OK, no. Nothing. So Sturtevant here has a really weird history. She worked at the BDM Corporation. In 1985, she joined the agency. When I say agency, I mean CIA for counterintelligence, tech protection, all that stuff.

46:27she kind of went she worked in joint CIA directorate of operations and CIA directorate of science and technology programs she was a very high level deputy director position in the NRO and then in in two she also served on the senate select committee on intelligence where she and Chris Mellon actually worked together for numerous years not only did they work together but they attended many of the same meetings not only did they attend many of the same meetings but over are certain periods and quarters, they have the exact same per diem, which implies that they traveled together. They ate together.

46:59They attended the same meetings together on the same cars, the same craft. So I would wager these two have a very, uh, they, they know each other quite well. She was also served as a special advisor to the president under George W. Bush. And in 2006, she joined Lockheed Martin as the vice president for government affairs from 2006 to 2021, as well as VP for Intelligence Joint Science and Technology Programs. So I think there may have been a conflict of interest here within Lockheed Martin. Once you're agency, you're agency for life, right? If you're in the CIA, you're never out of the CIA, especially the Directorate of Science and Technology.

47:35So I think there's a very strong argument that can be made that due to her obligations and allegiance to the CIA DS &T, she had to help put the kibosh on this technology transfer. And also - But you think of, if she knew Mellon, And I mean, you think of Mellon also as very pro, you know, kind of UFO stuff, at least now. What I would say to Christopher Mellon, if he's watching this, because I've asked him numerous times. Yeah. Ask her again, Mr. Mellon, because I'm sure this time she'll remember. Okay. Yeah, there you go. I'm sure this time she'll remember. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And here is Mary Sturtevant.

48:07Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's so interesting. I mean, you often do see people kind of playing both sides of the issue as well. Yeah, yeah. Like you hear about, you know, Mike Turner who put the kibosh on, you know, this last or UAPDA, not this last one, but the one before it. Right. 2020 fiscal year 2024, I believe. That's right. And, you know, you hear that, like, you know, the people, you know, the largest donors to his campaign are like, you know, Raytheon, Lockheed, Boeing, whatever. But then simultaneously, you have Lockheed clearly trying to get a bunch of information out through efforts like, you know, you know, they spent a lot of time with Tom DeLonge and TTSA and that sort of thing, secret machines.

48:47And so it seems like they do want some disclosure to occur, obviously, when it comes to eminent domain clauses in the UAPDA that involve taking their material and, you know, making it kind of, you know, congressional civilian oversight. You know, you know, they're obviously not going to be happy about that. But it is interesting how they're trying to sort of manage the process. Yeah. It seems like there's numerous factions competing for disclosure. One of the most obvious factions is TTSA, which involves the whole OSAP crew, Eric Davis, Hal Putoff, Lou Elizondo, Chris Mellon, all these guys. Their carefully managed disclosure seems to be about the revelations of the existence of non-human intelligence and technical vehicles and that there's programs to recover these, but no discussion of derivation of technologies, possibly for national security concerns or whatever they want to say.

49:40and they really like to pose the whole nhir super national security threat narrative the whole ttsa saga is very weird it seems like in in 2011 tom de long was plucked this could have been an old bass biglow advanced aerospace space studies project um you know they had some of their their documents under osap kind of not leaked but discovered and there was discussion of a project forum within those which was to basically in california take you know celebrities, media personalities, popular people to start talking about the UFO subject. And I think that likely Tom DeLonge and TTSA was a holdover project forum spearheaded by Lou Elizondo under direction of something like the National Security Council to bring forth limited disclosures.

50:21TTSA is wacky when you look at it. You know, Tom DeLonge had numerous, numerous high-level advisors, whether it was somebody like Lou Elizondo, a whole history in counterintelligence, guys like Steve Justice from Lockheed Martin, high-level Air Force generals. And these guys were saying, hey, you know, all these technologies are locked up in black budgets, but we're gonna we don't really know how to do it, but we're gonna try and make our own, like Lightcraft, we're gonna try and make our own ARVs and all that, so it just seems almost like a bastardization of what legacy programs had doing like all these guys Steve Justice who had worked in programs or been exposed to them had amnesia and they had to kind of start all over again in the public sector There were clearly guys involved in that who had ulterior motives and then I do think I think, you know, some people don't give Tom DeLonge enough credit for modern disclosure.

51:10Oh my goodness, yeah. Because like so many people just wouldn't even be into the subject, I think, if it weren't for a lot of what he got out. And I do think he, on his own, organically made a ton of connections, poked the bear a lot to the effect of a lot of these guys coming out to him. And he kind of, I think, put a lot of this stuff together. And so, yeah, maybe they're, you know, ulterior motives with some of the people involved. But not Tom. I don't think Tom had Altirmo. I think he had very genuine, you know. He was a trailblazer. Yeah, I think so. Yeah. I also think a strong argument can be made.

51:42He was exposed to some pretty radical stuff, whether this was authorized or unauthorized disclosures. If you look at his appearance on Joe Rogan back in 2017, October of 2017, this was like the radical time that he came out and talked about TTSA. There's something that really caught my eye there. And I think a strong argument can be made. Tom DeLonge was exposed to elements of Immaculate Constellation. Yeah. Oh, interesting. We know Immaculate Constellation as the USAT Matthew Brown was exposed to that began in 2017 that utilized U.S. intelligence platforms, overhead platforms, implying NRO with spy satellites and overhead collection platforms, probably NGA and numerous various intelligence gathering systems to monitor both non-human craft and alien reproduction vehicles.

52:28There are plenty of interesting cases, including slowly rotating triangles over Indo-PATCOM, Indo-Pacific Command within Matthew Brown's Immaculate Constellation document. Saucer-shaped craft seemingly using cloud coverage as cover and all that. But the connection I'm trying to make and why I think a strong argument Tom DeLonge was exposed to Immaculate Constellation in 2017, the year IMCON began, is if you listen closely to that Joe Rogan interview, tom delong talks about episodic visits of craft he says that his high level sources in the nro specifically told him that scientists and eggheads had figured out ways to basically pre-predict when and where craft would appear and thus satellites and imagery intelligence platforms would would capture these quote-unquote episodic visits whoa his connections to the nro whilst he was at TTSA Lou Elizondo was liaison to the NRO he was liaison to the NRO whoa I don't think a lot of people know that that's not public knowledge but yeah he was liaison to the NRO how'd you figure that out curriculum CV liaison to the NRO and if you look at the Immaculate Constellation documents numerous sightings talk about how the sensor collection platform seemingly had foreknowledge of the event, almost like the system was put in place to collect data on the appearance of the UFO or ARV, but the system knew it was going to be there.

53:58It had foreknowledge. It could track the erratically moving tic-tac or the saucer. So I think there's a connection there with those episodic visits and the foreknowledge of craft sighting in the Immaculate Constellation documents. The timelines add up too. I think that's something that's worthy to be explored. If you ask Luis Elizondo if he was read into Immaculate Constellation, of course, it's a USAP, so we'll have to deny that. But I think there's some interesting questions there that could be explored. It's so fascinating. I think the more you read books like Secret Machines or like, you know, look at a lot of Tom DeLonge's, you know, old interviews and stuff, you're like, I'll often like I'll catalog some of these things and I'll be like, well, I'm not so sure.

54:36And then I'll do my own open source research and I'll run into something. And I'm like, damn, he was like, right about that, too. Like, you know, like he talks about, I think, the Maynard Consortium and secret machines. Yeah, based on the Jason Committee. The Jason Committee, or it was like, I think it was like this international corporate board that oversaw the UFO issue. And it's either the Jason Committee, I think of more in the context of like tech protection via the US, like our, you know, kind of most sensitive weaponry. But I almost associate that with, you know, if you read like Jacques Vallée's Forbidden Science, he talks about like the Carlisle Group constantly coming up, you know, and even Ben Rich, there's a quote in the early 90s, I think with his letters between him and John Andrews, I think, of Testers Motor Corp.

55:22And he is talking about this like international governance board around the UFO issue and how it actually might need to be wrested out of the international governance board and taken into American hands. And so, you know, you have a lot of things like that where you're like, you know, it seems like Tom actually was had a lot of great info. Yeah. And that's such a great point because it seems like, you know, whether it's a five eyes retrieval program or, you know, tech protection stuff like the Jason committee, which was founded out of MITRE, by the way. Interesting. Yeah. I didn't know that. Yeah.

55:56Cool. So that's why I started looking at MITRE. Also, like as a side note, when was MITRE in a lot of these FFRDCs started, like the Aerospace Corporation, 1959, 1960? That's exactly when Colonel Philip J. Corso of the Army's, not Air Force's, Foreign Technology Division says that technologies were being seeded into basically U.S. defense contractors to try to adapt to improve U.S. military might. Connection there? Probably. Yeah. And you have, you know, I interviewed Harold Malmgren, as you know, and he was at a federally funded research and development. Yeah, IDA. IDA. And, you know, he said point blank before, you know, somebody wrote this like blog post kind of takedown of him.

56:32He said, my work at the IDA was actually a cover for what I was doing for the National Security Council and the president. And so it was clear even back then that like you had this kind of old boys club of the kind of wild, wild west cowboy intelligence agencies and FFRDCs were used as a front kind of often because his mentor at the IDA was Richard Bissell. Richard Bissell not only was deputy director of plans for the CIA later, founded Area 51 basically to test the U-2 spy plane. But then also, you know, you mentioned this to me last night, I had forgotten, founded the NRO. He was one of the co-founders.

57:11because just like we talked about with the NRO and CIA DSNT, the NRO is unique because it exists as a joint DOD-IC agency. And upon its creation in 1961, after a shootout of a U-2 spy plane over denied airspace in the Soviet Union, the NRO had co-directors, one from the DOD, one from the IC. And it's weird that the CIA seems to have a little tug of war over any lately founded U.S. intelligence agency. Same thing with the Nuro, founded in 1969. Up until 1972, there was a huge tug of war between the Navy and CIA, specifically the DSMT, over who controls the neuro. And then, of course, Bobby Reinhardt takes over and he's just agency out the wazoo.

57:51So yeah, further interesting parallels between that. Richard Bissell is an interesting person. I'm particularly fond of, and I think you probably are too, of Richard Bissell allegedly briefing Malmgren on otherworldly technologies, as we know our buddy Randy Anderson, Offworld Technologies Division under the Naval Surface Warfare Center crane. Yeah, yeah. There's definitely seems like something might line up there. What do you think of Malmgren's testimony? Because I did that interview and I honestly would have expected that to have been picked up by mainstream media because you have a guy who is a presidential advisor for JFK, LBJ, Nixon and Ford.

58:26You could argue with his level of seniority with JFK specifically. But he admitted that, like, you know, he didn't deal a ton with JFK directly. He dealt more with Shriver or whatever. And then you can't really argue with his connections with the other presidents. I think he rose in seniority, you know, as time went on. clearly was connected at the highest levels of government to me, you know, and I've met a lot of like, I think pretty impressive people, like just pattern match to somebody who had a map of the world in his head was a total kind of Kissinger type, you know, maybe without the bad vibes that Kissinger had, you know, the, the, the, the, the desire to create destruction and manipulate.

59:08I think it was in some ways he was kind of like the opposite of Kissinger and he was actually, you know likely I think you know I think he was CIA yeah and um and I think he was likely actually appointed to uh kind of restrain Kissinger in many ways like he was kind of he was he was tagged with uh reigning in Kissinger who was seen as this kind of rogue guy so what do you think of his testimony because there are some people who've I think that's kind of this coordinated job but like some people come out and attacked him since since that interview I think Malmgren was likely CIA and his position at the IDA was a knocker non-official cover, which is a very common thing for agency stuff.

59:50I hope that I think over time that Malmgren's testimony is going to age like fine wine. I mean, I was, I was re-listening to your project with him just for one of my projects. And I was particularly intrigued when he is talking about, uh, intelligence communities and how intelligence communities have essentially found a way to fund themselves. And so they don't adhere to traditional oversight channels because they basically fund themselves. This comports exactly with what I think about institutions like the NRO or other intelligence agencies and UFO legacy programs. 1994, 1995, they can use carryover funds basically to do whatever the heck they want.

1:00:26I also think that I hope the 1962 Bluegill Triple Prime nuclear test starts to get revisited with what Malmgren said. Of course, that was a, was that, were those tests over Bikini Atoll? Where were those? Johnston Atoll. Yes. I know there's been some discussion on whether that was a was a targeting pod or something that was knocked out by the residual EMP of the nuclear blast when stated that, you know, Bissell briefed him on that being a UFO. I think Jeff Cruikshank has done some incredible work and is still to this day making the argument that that was a UFO recovered by the USS. I think it was in Gage.

1:01:00What's interesting about that testimony is those tests were conducted under the... It's a evolution agency of the AFSWP, the Armed Forces Special Weapons Project, which eventually became DITRA. I can't remember the agency specifically. AFSWP went through like eight or nine iterations before it became DITRA. Sorry, not eight or nine. That's an exaggeration, like four or five. Yeah. But that agency did the testing. Yeah. Really? Yeah. And Sandia supplied like the specific rocket payload for that testing and such. But what's interesting to me is when Dylan Borland talks about old Atomic Energy Commission records talking about concluding that UFOs are extraterrestrial vehicles based upon the Atomic Energy Commission.

1:01:43I wonder if part of those records adhere to the AFSWP before it became DITRA recording that crash. Yeah. And the whole I mean, so there's this guy, you know, D. Dean Johnson, who took, you know, tried to do this like takedown of Malmgren and the whole takedown was like, you know, he couldn't have held the queue clearance, which you wouldn't be able to figure out through the FBI at all. The guy was CIA. You just wouldn't. And especially if you're a non-official cover CIA, there's just no way. And so I think a lot of those points are sort of rendered moot. And then you could say, well, he wasn't CIA.

1:02:15But it's like you read the tea leaves on the interview. He's saying he handled the presidential daily brief. That's a CIA thing. He's saying he's best friends with Tom Farmer, who happened to be the general counsel of the CIA. He had Paul Mellon's walking stick in the interview. And I'm holding it for half the time in the interview or whatever because I wanted to see it. And he had it offhand just in his apartment. Does it represent anything? It looks very unique. Well, he has a lot of power. so paul mellon's the founder one of the founders of the cia so like i don't know you got to read the read the kind of tea leaves on it um you know and i i kind of i think figured that out through kind of basic research you know he's at oxford he's yale you know it's like it's richard bissell's your mentor he's deputy director he's number two in the entire cia we have richard bissell all over his diary all over it so it's like so clear to me that he was cia and then i don't know i felt like maybe it was hard for me to to break this you know gentlemanly oath that he had he was kind of breaking it on his own you know he clearly was breaking it in the ufo context but i felt weird explicitly outing him yeah so hey are you cia yeah yeah and it's the guy's like you know literally by the time we had put it out he had passed away sadly and so like i just didn't feel like it was my place.

1:03:36But I did insert a little thing at the very beginning in the monologue saying, if you watch this entire interview, you'll realize he's part of a much deeper intelligence network than meets the eye. And I think that didn't, maybe a lot of people didn't process that. Clearly, Dedean Johnson didn't, but I don't know. The Q clearance specifically is kind of a mute point to me. Of course, Q clearance is the DOE's equivalent of a top secret clearance. I mean, so there are some not public individuals that I'm familiar with, one of whom specifically has claimed to have operated on a crash retrieval team, UFO crash retrieval team out of the Nevada Test and Training Range.

1:04:15I've spent a lot of time kind of vetting this person and studying their claims. And I have to say, I do trust them and believe them. At Area 51? Area 51 adjacent sites. Not S4, but adjacent sites. Okay. Can you say where? One such place would be the Tonopah Test Range, TTR, which is managed by Sandia, which is the Department of Energy's experimental weapons testing range. And what does he say he does specifically in the context of crash? Oh, well, we'll talk about that. That's interesting. There's some interesting points there. But basically, this guy was sheep dipped from another U.S. military branch.

1:04:50Sheep dipped. We know that term from Jake Barber going down the combat controller pipeline taken into the program. Means getting getting erased. Yeah. Yeah. It's an agency term, right? Going full ghost. Yeah. So this guy was sheep dipped into the programs and four programs went on on on blue sites or unacknowledged sites just to hang out for staging ops for rapid reaction retrieval teams. He has a badge. The badge has NRO on it and it just has a haphazardly slapped on cue clearance. So, again, I have to state that this I can't really provide evidence for this guy's testimony to you. And this should be taken with conjecture, of course.

1:05:26But this individual, I personally believe his testimony and it seems like he never tested for a Q clearance. He never went through any sort of system to get a Q clearance. He was just given it. He was just given the Q clearance. And I think this is also important because we just went through kind of org chart stuff around how the UFO stuff works hierarchically. But as far as the classification and clearances of this stuff, the Atomic Energy Commission and special nuclear material, all of that stuff is really important. So go watch David Grush on Joe Rogan. If you've watched it once, watch it again.

1:06:01If you've watched it twice, watch it half a dozen times and listen to the minutia of what he says. Specifically, legacy programs starting with the same secrecy mechanisms as the Manhattan Project and the 1954 atomic energy agreement birthing a lot of the secrecy behind UFO legacy program classification and controls. from that, we can take that the Department of Energy and its precursor agency, the Atomic Energy Commission, they hold a lot of the classification systems that govern UFO legacy programs and secrecy and who gets right into the bigot list and the USAPs and how the programs are delegated and where they're housed and so forth.

1:06:31And specifically, there's numerous mechanisms that the Atomic Energy Commission and Department of Energy can utilize based upon the 1954 Atomic Energy Agreement. These include special nuclear materials, anything that gives off vaguely radioactive or radio, yeah, radioactive signatures, just, oh, let's put that as special nuclear material, transclassified foreign nuclear information, which that's famously outlined in the UAPDA for three years in a row, specifically named TFNI, transclassified foreign nuclear information, and FII, foreign intelligence information. Now, what's interesting about foreign intelligence information is there's a caveat to it that I think really enforces my theory.

1:07:09One subset of foreign intelligence information, FII, is non-contract, which means not relasable to customers or contractors. I believe this is a security mechanism used for Department of Energy and their semi-autonomous subordinate agency, the National Nuclear Security Administration, to obfuscate UFO programs within DOE and NSA National Labs, Sandia, Lawrence Livermore, Los Alamos, and then the Y-12 complex, which houses Oak Ridge. So that's a very interesting interesting to go to because of course there's it seems like with legacy programs there's numerous layers of program security there's the darpa sid uh if you're considered an insider outsider threat to them they'll just kill you really there's the doe oici uh who are there examples of them like taking people out no i no but not public yeah but the doe oici uh well where are you getting that though that darpa sid can just like take people out well i i made a i just made a tweet about this pretty recently about the DARPA SID and basically their program protection structure for special access programs within the United States for the most national security, like restrictive special access programs, the most innovative, exotic technology programs for the United States.

1:08:22And it just, it stands to reason that the CIA historically hasn't had a problem with taking out its own citizens if it needs to, if there's an insider outsider threat, such a program protection agency or directorate on the forefront of legacy programs would not hesitate twice to neutralize insider-outsider threats. Just like whistleblowers we know today face reprisals, right? David Grush has faced reprisals. I know individuals who have had pensions threatened, threatened with inappropriate stuff on their computers, really disgusting graphic stuff that is just abhorrent to think about. And so it just stands to reason if somebody is a direct threat to a program protection structure that they might be taken out.

1:09:00Yeah. Sometimes wonder if there's some biological control. Like if you want like a full clampdown control on like people who are part of a program, are there chips you're embedding? Are you giving them shots where you can kind of switch them off later in life? Are there things like, I mean, it's horrible to think about, but do you think some of that stuff is going on? There's one common thread I found and each of these three people had the same thing happen that they kind of answered independently. There's Michael Herrera, who observed the, while deployed on the USS Denver in Sumatra, Indonesia, experienced a team in all black of operators in a large, seemingly reverse engineered man-made craft.

1:09:39There's Jonathan Wagant and his infamous 1997 crash retrieval encounter. And then there's Roderick Castle, who during the Hunter Warrior advanced warfighting experiment in 1997, while he was an AV-8B Harrier aviation technician, basically was ordered to check out some unauthorized flare activity. He saw a massive 200, 300 foot triangle and accompanying black team. He was held at gunpoint. All three of these men directly after their encounters were given what they were told were anthrax vaccine boosters. Back in the 90s, there was a huge controversy around anthrax scare and anthrax boosters. Roger Castle specifically had already been given the anthrax vaccine and an anthrax booster.

1:10:16So weird that right after his experience of this team and this triangle, likely man-made triangle, he's given another booster. Same with Waygant, same with Herrera. Anthrax booster. Yeah. So weird. What prompted me on this is. You saw some sensitive technology. Now you need to be protected from anthrax. Yeah. Which was a flash in the pan threat to begin with. Like who's talking about anthrax? Right. What was interesting to me is initially it was Roger Castle that said this. He was like, yeah, afterwards I was given an anthrax booster. And then I was talking to Mike Herrera about his encounter.

1:10:50And he said, oh, I was just given an anthrax booster. unprompted. This was like months after. And this is like a prophylactic where if you came across anthrax, presumably you'd have the immune defense for it or something. It's like a COVID booster, but for anthrax or like. Yeah. And then I made that connection. I was in North Carolina sitting across from Jonathan Wagan sharing a meal and he's talking about his encounter. I love Jonathan Wagan, by the way, one of the greatest guys I know. And he talks about just completely unprompted. Yeah. And you know, afterwards we were given an anthrax booster.

1:11:17Speaking of Jonathan Wagan, I cannot express to you how much I dislike the fellow Marine sergeants he was with during his encounter. They threw him under the bus and sold him out. Well, let's get into the core details because you just came out with a video maybe a couple months ago that or a few months ago that was one of the best, I think, most important, just pure whistleblower testimonies about Jonathan Weigandt. And what a fascinating story. So, yeah, tell us about it. I think that can bridge us into how crash retrieval teams work as well. Jonathan Weigandt, USMC Lance Corporal, 1997, sent to Peru Operation Laser Strike, which is a counter-narcotics operation.

1:11:54Narcoplanes shoot him down, get drugs out of Colombia, Bolivia, Peru, entering U.S. airspace. He is told at one point that there's a downed, friendly or foreign plane. No big deal. So he and a troop of eight to 10 Marines, including Sergeant Adkins and Sergeant Allens, trek down to where this aircraft crashed. After a combination of driving and trekking, they encounter a clearing, which in a basically cliff face. There's an enormous egg-shaped, teardrop-shaped craft embedded in the cliff face. The craft is featuring extensive ballistic damage on the back. We can't guess this to this day. This was due to a Peruvian Hawkman-23 missile system.

1:12:34There is seemingly a field around the craft. You know, it's kind of silvery metallic, but around the craft, there's this swirling field similar to what Dylan Borland said about the lava-like mechanism that was used seemingly to cloak the craft. This was a purplish greenish like oil on water, the mother of Pearl effect. There was a light around the circumference of the craft that was kind of slowing down. And there seemed to be a hatch open with what's appeared to be an arm hanging out with four fingers. This was part of Did it look like a human arm? Did it look like a reptile? It just looked like an arm hanging out with four fingers.

1:13:07Yeah. And this was actually one of the things that Stephen Greer cut out of their year 2000 interview. Why did he cut anything out of this guy's testimony? At first, I thought he was vindictive against James Fox, our mutual friend and excellent filmmaker with a great upcoming project, James Fox. He filmed the Waygant interview for Stephen Greer. And so initially when I found the raw files, which even the raw files on Greer's DPI archive are still chopped up, you can find one part where James Fox asks a question and it quickly cuts. So initially I thought Greer just cut out James Fox's part, but it seems more dubious than that if part of Wagan's testimony was excluded.

1:13:43But that's par for the course for Greer, right? We can think of Brad Sorensen in the 1988 flux liner incident at the Norton Air Force Base Air Show, where in 1990, Brad Sorensen admitted to Aviation Week in Space Technology senior editor Bill Scott. The entire incident was real. Everything happened. The flux liners, the copycat vehicles and Greer and his cronies stonewalled this interview. So crazy. It's if you really want disclosure and you're talking about a guy who, you know, shows up at Edwards, was it Edwards Air Force Base? It was Norton Air Force Base. It's close down now, near Air Force Plant 42.

1:14:16That's right. And then he's shown some back of the house show, and then he sees an alien reproduction, three alien reproduction vehicles hovering or whatever, and you see video of it. Like, that's such an important testimony. Yeah. And then he sort of, like, you know, goes dark, and he's, like, really mean to all the UFO researchers. He's given me so many death threats. It's crazy. So then you have Stephen Greer as the one guy who's sitting on like, you know, like really crazy, you know, testimony from him. And he, where is that? Like, did he destroy it? Or like, where's the evidence? So I think this was found between 2017 and 2020, 2019 or 2020.

1:14:56Okay. One of Greer's cronies, a pretty respected and famous researcher, compiled a bunch of documents on this. And I think pride the interview from Bill Scott. and they just, him and the Greer team just put this all in a PDF, non-OCR, so non-searchable PDF, and just posted it on the DPI archive as Norton Air Force Base internal. So this was supposed to be an internal document that was posted to Greer's public archive. This is like a 200 page PDF and I read through the whole thing because I was doing a, I was absorbing as much McCandlish, as much shots and stuff. Is there audio associated with it?

1:15:32No, it's a written thing from Bill Scott, but there's also handwritten notes between Bill Scott. So they did publish this. No. They didn't publish it. No. They just made it internal. Yeah. I tried to reach out to Bill Scott, but he had a heart attack, so he's in poor health. Oh, Jesus. So I haven't heard from him. I'd like to speak to him. He's like Aviation Week. Yeah, in Space Technology, senior editor. And of course, I've tried to kind of run a bit of a gambit with Brad saying, hey, I've seen this interview. I know you've seen it. I can just get more death threats. But circling back to Weigant, because I think that's so productive in how we can talk about crash retrieval teams.

1:16:05But it just seems like every now and then Greer weirdly obfuscates some data, including critical testimony. I mean, biologics being present at Jonathan Wagan's retrieval encounter is critical because as he gets close to the craft, as it's dripping this clear, viscous, syrupy-like liquid, he feels like a being is communicating to him in his mind, telling him not to be scared, but also asking for help. Which I can't imagine the type of PTSD that would give a man. a sentient being like begging for help, but also trying to calm you down. What did he do? Oh, he's getting closer and closer to the craft because he's the only one that gets near it.

1:16:39And then Sergeant Allen and Sergeant Adkins kind of jerk him back to reality, screaming at him and tell him to, you know, get the heck out of there. Sergeant Allen and Sergeant Adkins. I won't say which one of them, but one of them, um, I emailed from my UAP group at gmail.com email. Uh, it's, it doesn't have my name or anything like that. Um, asking for comment and they responded hello my full name so they're trying to be like a trying to big bro me a little bit be a little bit intimidating saying like i know who you are they doxed you in their response yeah correct uh so that's not cool and that's why i don't like them and they've also thrown them under the bus one of them specifically said oh no jonathan wagant's just crazy it's just not true but the the most important part uh in my opinion um is when wagant and the other marines leave the clearing they're immediately intercepted by uh between eight and twelve operators in all black u.s army helmets that's kind of an important detail all black no insignia no name tags uh held at gunpoint whilst these men are being detained um two u.s army ch-47 helicopters land out of the helicopters come a team in mop gear mission-oriented protective posture just think hazmat gear you know if you think back to the 1965 kexburg pennsylvania crash all the witnesses on on scene said they saw people in what they called moon suits arrive and uh but these people are wearing doe insignia and some of them have DOE rain jackets.

1:17:57Weyand tries to resist. He gets the crap beaten out of him and he's taken and held in isolation for a period of up to two days after numerous threats that he's going to be killed and all that stuff. But so that crash retrieval team, that is really important. The people in DOE, that is highly likely the Department of Energy Nuclear Emergency Support Team, DOE NEST. DOE NEST is a DOE NNSA. NNSA, again, is the DOE semi-autonomous agency, the National Nuclear Security Administration support team. They're responsible for rapid reaction responses to any sort of CBRNE, chemical, biological, radiological, nuclear, high-yield explosives, specifically dealing with nuclear stuff around the world.

1:18:36This team has their own private jets, of course, which is also really weird detail. That guy I talked to you about that has claimed he's been on retrieval teams out of the NTTR has stated for some rapid reaction events, they would hop on a little private jet. So the DOE Nest has their own private jets. DOE Nest derives its authority from where else? The 1954 Atomic Energy Agreement. So DOE Nest operates under that authority, so they can kind of use the same classification systems to do, you know, whatever the heck they want. So how did they, because I think of OGA, Office of Global Access, as being this kind of rapid response team.

1:19:14Are they coordinating with DOE Nest? OGA are logistics coordinators. Think about like the NGA as a combat support agency. Them and the NRO, they're providing intelligence. actionable information and so forth. The CIA is just the coordinator. So in all likelihood, what, but this is - And the OGA is under CIA. Yeah, and this is before the OGA existed, right? But in all likelihood, let's say Jonathan Wagan's encounter occurred in 2004, just for a mind exercise. The CIA OGA would have likely contracted the U.S. Army 160th SOAR, Nighthawks, specifically 1st Battalion, which is the U.S. Army's basically helicopter regiment that supports JSOC operations to utilize their CH-47s for this retrieval operation.

1:19:56OGA would have said, hey, we need this NEST team, whether they're NEST or whether they're just retrieval operators using NEST and using the 1954 Atomic Energy Agreement as a shield. We need those guys. And then they would also coagulate and get the tier one adjacent, likely U.S. Army Delta, in this case, folks to get to the retrieval scene. So then, yeah, what ends up happening to Wey Gantt? So he's basically beat up. He's put in isolation. And then he's given an anthrax shot, as you mentioned later. And then he's sent back to Cherry Point. After a while, Sergeant Adkins, Sergeant Allens get mad at him if they try and talk to him.

1:20:31The Marines treat him like crap. So he uses marijuana to get kicked out of the Marines because it's so hellacious for him. Poor guy, man. So messed up. And you see it in his face. He looks haunted. He looks haunted. Yeah. So before we started recording and so forth, he was like trembling. it still affects him deeply to this day to speak about i can only imagine it took it took months to get him on camera he doesn't he does not want to be on camera he lives a private life he he has a beautiful family he uh works with rescue dogs a lot great guy pure hearts and uh it's been terrible for him so that doe nest though i think there's a lot of interesting things there because we've talked about special nuclear material fii yeah transclassified for nuclear information and now NEST.

1:21:16I think NEST is likely used at a broad and CONUS and OCONUS, outside CONUS, Continental United States Retrieval Operations. The DOE and slash NNSA employ two other agencies, I think are highly likely involved in UFO retrieval operations or passing recovered UFO materials between U.S. national labs here in the Continental United States. This would be DOE SRT, Special Response Team, which is sort of a federal unit, a federal protective force that has arrest on-site authority within the U.S. These are the guys that safeguard nuclear material. These are the guys that safeguard Sandia and National Labs.

1:21:52And then the DOE, NSA, NNSA, OST, or Office of Secure Transportation. These are the guys that drive the big rigs that transport the materials. Now, the common thing between all three of these agencies, NEST, SRT, and OST, these are not comprised of uh of of dod employees these are comprised of contractors all three of them are comprised of contractors for example sandia has designed the big rigs the ost uses but that's not the point the contractors involved are sandia lawrence livermore los alamos raytheon and our former good friend now part of momentum e g and g e g of course is is the company that allegedly hired Bob Lazar to work out at Area 51 S4.

1:22:36EG &G was, of course, spearheaded by Donald Kerr, of course, the NRO. And EG &G, one of the senior special projects guys, is one of the people, or Alfred O'Donnell, is one of the individuals who told George Knapp that there was a recovered saucer held at an Area 51 adjacent site with live biologics in the 1950s. And this is crazy because Alfred O'Donnell was also Annie Jacobson's source. And she goes on Lex Friedman, and she goes, I was told on his deathbed, Alfred O'Donnell told me, you know, that was a big source for her book, Area 51, where she was basically given exclusive early access post Bob Lazar.

1:23:13Nobody really knew anything about Area 51. And she's saying that her source, Alfred O'Donnell, tells her that, what did she say exactly about Roswell? That it was these like progeria. Mangled twins. Mangled twins. From Joseph Mengele at the behest of Joseph Stalin. Once it was determined that this was a hoax and that Stalin was able to get a craft over the United States and it crashed. And it had, you know, people inside of it. They were people that were sort of deformed and meant surgically altered to look like aliens. The United States government decided that it needed to know what on earth that was all about and if it was possible for us to have the same program.

1:24:00This according to the source, right? Now, that source is Al O'Donnell, who is the nuclear weapons engineer who armed, wired and fired 186 nuclear weapons. And that's harder to believe than aliens. Yeah, right. To be quite honest. Right. it's listening to George Knapp talk about this you can tell he's a little bit frustrated because he spent because he has the same source as her and Alfred O'Donnell told him that it's and he also has UFO alien to that source uh there was George Knapp stated that um there was a meeting set up between one of the heads of EG &G Edgerton, Germenhausen, and Greer for one of them to meet with him Dick D 'Amato you know Dick D 'Amato of of the I think he was he was SSCI, right?

1:24:45He was kind of in charge of probing saps and stuff, and Alfred O'Donnell to talk about recovered UFOs. And this was sometime in the 90s. And when they got to this meeting, the subject of UFOs was off the table. And this was the turning point for Al O'Donnell. He would never speak about it again. What's really interesting, though, is that Al O'Donnell apparently said to George Knapp that in the early 1950s, 1954 to be exact, that the recovered saucer was kind of transferred into Area 51 adjacent sites. Conventionally, you would think that that is because Area 51 was supposedly built in 1954, established in 1954.

1:25:22Even though there's strong arguments that underground sites near Area 51 existed far before that with the Borax mines, I'm of a different mind. I think that Kraft was moved in 1954 because the 1954 Atomic Energy Agreement gave expanded powers to government-owned contractor-operated laboratories like Sandia and so forth to house the Kraft. And thus, 1954 resembles a turning point when DOE, FFRDCs, and NNSA, which was established in the year 2000, started to kind of hang on to these materials themselves. Especially on the Nevada Test Site and NTTR, Nevada Test and Training Range. There's a series of photographs in the National Archives ranging from 1972 to, at that time, 1992, before Martin Marietta purchased Sandia back in 1993.

1:26:03uh but and now it extends like 2012 but it was a 20 000 plus egng nevada test site and sandia operations all across the nevada test site so many photos of underground stuff weird computer control room so that is my prevailing theory that 1954 saw uh saw a lot of these sorts of projects being moved into government-owned contractor operated hands which that's further supported by, there is a former New Mexico state rep, J. Andrew Kistner. This is like a proto-grush. Nobody speaks about this and it's insanely interesting. And I can speak about, so 2002 or 2004, second annual crash retrieval conference, Linda Moulton Howell says, hey, I'm going to present this testimony.

1:26:45I personally don't think of her as too credible of a source. But she's broken a lot of really amazing stuff. Right, right. But with some sensationalism sometimes. So I contacted J. Andrew Kistner myself to confirm if he did this or not. He's still alive. Correct. Wow. Correct. He doesn't really want to talk. Interesting. Just like most people who have been involved don't really want to talk. And he was a congressman or senator? Correct. He was a rep for New Mexico. Okay. And so in 1994, 1995, he conducted a series of interviews with firsthand legacy people all across the board office of naval research air force etc um and basically starting in 1947 there was some crashed craft vanavar bush spearheaded retrieval efforts and so forth and he says all this yes it's crazy numerous scientific agencies were involved the afswp which would later become ditra was involved and that in the early 1950s there was a shift in how these craft were held and craft were given over to government-owned contractor operated hands to be custodians so that's one of the biggest interesting things in j.

1:27:44andrew kistner's testimony that puts a lot of faith in my opinion of him as he talks about this, which comports strongly with my idea that National Lab started to take over these materials and house them in the 1950s. Indeed, J. Andrew Kistner, allegedly in 1995, told other New Mexico state rep Stephen Schiff about this. Stephen Schiff launched a giant probe into Roswell, and there's a GAO audit and investigation into Roswell, where apparently the Air Force had lost all of their files into Roswell. So that's a really interesting rabbit hole. Yeah, Stephen Schiff, I think, is on record saying, like complaining about that.

1:28:16Yes. He says that the records were like rampant or like inappropriately destroyed, all that good stuff. So crazy. It seems like the mid 1990s has a lot of really weird events that might have had to cause UFO legacy programs to reorganize themselves to hide behind this special access program oversight committee special or senior review group. Makes sense. Interesting. So that was when this reorg happened. Okay. 1950s. Okay. And so, yeah, again, we talked about why the national labs would be perfect to house some of these stuff. I've talked about it before. It's another individual that needs to go further vetting because there's some stuff that checks out with his testimony and some stuff that begs more questions.

1:28:53But he has stated he has worked under the Y-12 complex, which houses Oak Ridge on a UFO legacy program that studies the skin of two recovered non-human saucer craft. Whoa. And this is a current guy that you're in touch with. As of 18 months ago. Wow. 18 months, 24 months, like within the last one to two years. Are you saying that Oak Ridge houses this program that does like, you know, kind of material analysis on UFO materials? Yeah. So things further need to be vetted with him. So again, this, you know, if you're listening to this interview, this shouldn't be the takeaway. This should be considered an interesting addendum to the conversation already.

1:29:29Like, hey, maybe this is possibly true, but there's some interesting stuff there. two recovered discs. He states that Mitre and Battelle are the two primary folks involved with this and that the DOE, OICI, Office of Intelligence and Counterintelligence, are the people that kind of run the show. Have you tried to stress test what he said or corroborate it through independent channels? A lot of it checks out and some of him is a little weird. Okay. So I think at the very least, he's being used as a limited hangout by people who actually work at the Y-12 complex on these stuff, specifically DOE OIC guys.

1:30:03But I do think there's truth to the story that under the Y-12 complex, there exists this legacy program. What's interesting, he says that this program studies the skin of craft. We've started to hear this a lot with recovered extraterrestrial or non-human craft, skin of craft. Why skin of craft? I think there's going to be a budding conversation in the next couple of years that what is common in UFO craft retrieval, specifically eggs, the egg-shaped craft, whether unmanned or manned, is that there's seemingly layers of skin on the craft, inner layers and outer layers separating like the bulkhead from the outer layer of the craft.

1:30:36My mind is drawn to A, the NTTR operator I spoke of. He spoke about a cracked egg once that he was on retrieval mission for and there was layers like a Russian nesting doll. There was layers of skin under the craft. I think back to the 1948 testimony of one Albert Bruce Collins who claimed to be a metallurgist who had some exposure to exotic stuff at the University of California, Berkeley. This guy, further investigation needs to be done, but he disclosed to Tim Cooper and Leonard Strinkfield in 1990, shortly before his death, I think on New Year's Day, 1991, or something like that. But he gave a lot of interesting insights into stuff like Project Twinkle, which was, of course, a Sandia Bay Z division investigation into green fireballs over New Mexico, Yeah.

1:31:25Which Lincoln La Paz claimed probably weren't prosaic objects and so forth. And I think there was some obstruction there as far as the Project Twinkle records, you know, being being shown because Lincoln LaPaz, who is a, you know, kind of a University of New Mexico meteor expert expert, not with any UFO background or spooky intelligence background, came to the conclusion that these green fireballs would track, you know, plumes of, you know, atomic detonations and were, you know, happening at atomic sites across the U.S. and they would turn on and off and they seem to be intelligently moving around.

1:31:56Yeah. And then the Air Force recommended that the findings of Project Twinkle not be disclosed because there was no natural explanation for this. There you go. And then, of course, we had the Robertson panel and all that stuff that happened thereafter. But Albert Bruce Collins stated that in 1948 at the University of California, Berkeley, he saw a low boy style trailer that was carrying a recovered vehicle. It was an egg shaped craft that seemed to be cracked. There seemed to be layers of skin and like separated bulkheads and almost inside like a visibly light compartment, sort of like an egg yolk.

1:32:25But that skin, those layers is very intriguing. Everybody, including our good friend, one of the best people I know, Chris Ramsey, is obsessed with the 4chan whistleblower. I actually think there's a lot of validity to that. And I think that might be legit. But back in 2024, there was another sort of Reddit whistleblower testimony that really flew under the radar that I think is worthy of revisiting. I think the title of the post now deleted was just ex-OGA contractor. OGA is not Office of Global Access here. It's other government agency implying this guy was probably like an agency contractor or stuff.

1:32:59This guy was in the 24th STS, which is a tier one unit in JSOC from the Air Force. He talks about after his service in the STS, like 16 years or so, he is just doing contracting work for an OGA, probably the CIA or something. And he staged OCONUS outside the United States. And I'll send you the link for this because I really recommend people read it. It's a really juicy, really juicy testimony that doesn't go overboard, which is interesting. And he sees his old troop chief. There's a couple C-130s that fly up to the base. It's all hush hush. Nobody talks about it. He sees these people just get into U.S.

1:33:34Army CH-47s, likely 160th SOAR for rapid reaction teams. And then no talk about this, completely hush-hush. About six to ten hours later, that team returns and he sees his old troop chief. This is very strange to this testimony, this poster, because the troop chief was just having beers in Virginia doing a fantasy football draft days prior. The troop chief looks super disturbed, super tired, a little out of it, but won't really say what happened. And the poster of this kind of pokes around. What were these guys doing? The term crash retrieval came up and he was kind of chewed out, reamed for it.

1:34:08A year later, he meets up with his troop chief and the troop chief kind of opens up and says what had happened. He was on a parallel, not directly JSOC, but a parallel tier one unit that was siloed under its own umbrella authority, not responsible for traditional SOCOM channels. that was responsible for crash retrieval of exotic vehicles. In the span of four years, he had only done three retrieval incidents, two of which were completely unknown to him. He had no idea what they were, but this new one really shook him to the core. The team was taken to a retrieval site, and there they found an egg embedded in mud.

1:34:44The egg, there was no brush fire. There was no explosive residue. It seemed like a giant bowling ball had been dropped from space, and this egg had landed in. And this large, silvery metallic egg, I think larger than the size of a couple SUVs, was cracked. And inside, what else is there but layers of craft, seeming like the nesting doll analogy is used. What's interesting is this guy said the air felt soupy. The air felt soupy. Recall when Dylan Borland said that that triangle took off above him at Langley, he felt like charged air, right? Yeah. So it feels like there's... It felt like electricity run through his body or something.

1:35:25Just like Jonathan Wigand said the air felt heavy as soon as he got in the proximity of the craft. And the guy didn't know what to do. They're just there to secure the LZ. But it's an anomalous vehicle that doesn't seem to be manned or like we like to say SOB, Souls on Board. But it's a really tame testimony that I encourage people to look at. It comports with what I know about unmanned egg retrievals. It's very interesting. It's so fascinating. Yeah. And you mentioned, you know, there's so many places to take this, but you mentioned in 2003, the OGA, you know, under the CIA gets created the Office of Global Access.

1:36:01And I think there's a Daily Mail article that outlines, you know, Chris Sharp. Yeah, Chris Sharp again. OK, there you go. All over the world, you know, they're kind of, you know, keeping their finger on the pulse of UFO crashes. And, you know, I think there's a rumor in because you mentioned, you know, if this was if the Wagon crash were after 2003, JSOC would have been involved and the army would have been involved. I believe there's a rumor of a dogfight between Lockheed crash retrieval team and a JSOC crash retrieval team in 2004 competing over like trying to retrieve. Yeah. The old Sentinels of Aether, huh?

1:36:39The Jake Barber classic. I mean, I've heard that that checks out the details of it and why certain elements in Sentinels of Aether, which was like a Romana Clay written by Jake Barber under a pseudonym, right, to try and trick Dobser in an intriguing play. I think there's details there that are more important. For example, I think the location of Koyame, Mexico is really important. I wouldn't be surprised if there's like... Explain that. So just context for the audience, basic context. So Jake Barber, obviously, you know, very important. And, you know, UFO whistleblower came out earlier this year through Ross Colthart, me, a couple other people, and said that he retrieved an egg shaped craft on this sort of, you know, generic range, sort of, you know, California test range.

1:37:25Did you see this egg? I saw it. Absolutely. What did it look like? It's probably 20 feet plus or minus, I don't know, 10 percent from my point of view. You know, I was 150 feet from it, had 150 foot long line that night. In a couple of different instances, well, I guess one was an egg, one was, you know, an Aikon craft. Said a lot of interesting things, also clearly was holding back, you know, in a lot of ways. But one of the interesting things he said is to get, initially get some information out through DOPSR, you know, which is, you know, you need to clear everything you let out through the DOD to let it out.

1:38:06He said he sort of tricked them by writing a sci-fi book. And I think the first chapter is out and it's Sentinels of Ether. And a lot of people, a lot of hardcore UFO researchers have speculated on this first chapter of this book because they think a lot of details might comport with the truth. Well, the most interesting part to me is that I think there's a message there that these retrieval assets, the guys that Waygant encountered, the guys that Roger Castle encountered and the guys that Michael Herrera encountered are not afraid to conduct blue on blue violence. These guys will kill American servicemen if need be for their mission directive.

1:38:40I think that's one of the greater themes there that maybe Jake Barber is trying to bring attention to. If this is not a real event, which it very well could be. Additionally, I think there's interesting data there to suggest that, you know, maybe there's an underground U.S. rapid reaction facility in Coyame, Mexico, in the north part of Mexico, and that maybe some of these facilities are built into mountains or built underground and there's various foliage or various terrain or possibly projections that are used to obfuscate these sites. Yeah. Well, I mean, look, you have to look no further than like Cheyenne Mountain Complex.

1:39:10You know, we have and then you always bring up, you know, the solder, you know, deep underground military bases. You have a great video on this subject. That's not a conspiracy. Like under national labs and under sensitive sites all over the U.S., we have underground facilities. Deep underground military bases absolutely exist. They have been a huge focus of the U.S. DOD and U.S. Army Corps of Engineers since 1948 when we took a bunch of Nazi scientists, including Xavier Dorsch, head of the TOT organization, to work under an Air Material Command underground laboratory and underground systems project.

1:39:43Deep underground military bases are extremely real. You have to look no further than the Lockheed Hellendale or Northrop Tehan RCS facilities, which were built primarily underground to hide from Soviet ISR in our denied airspace. These places are built underground. Additionally, if you're housing a UFO or just a conventional sap or interesting technology or even like a recovered Russian MiG, you're not going to keep that in a hangar. You're not going to keep that above ground. You're going to keep that in an underground installation. And there's numerous studies by the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers dating back to the 50s about supplying these with a nuclear reactor, where to get rid of some of the silt and dig out and where to put the excess dirt.

1:40:20There's data on how to supply years of food and water. There's interesting parallels to the Nazis and like the Regan worm logger in Poland, which was essentially an underground city with its own functioning train system. This is a very real thing. I think the biggest question is, is there a network of maglev trains or similar things connecting such installations? And I would say that there's a very strong argument that can be made. Early on, there were possible pneumatic systems that were thought to be implemented in Nazi Germany under the Todd organization that would connect Berlin to France and have a pneumatic train system that would connect the two in like five minutes.

1:40:54There's the 1972 Rand theoretical study, the very high speed transit system, which talks about connecting similar places. There's maglev systems. Even Lockheed Martin was super into maglev stuff in the year 2000s. And then, of course, you can start to rationalize this. Maglev levitating magnets. Sort of like high speed bullet train style tech. And then like tunnel boring machines, TBMs, how these things could be used by the Bureau of Reclamation as offshoot programs to start coring out these tunnels. I implore people, go look at those Sandia NTS, Sandia lab photos, and just look at how large some of these underground tunnels were cored out under the Nevada test site just for experiments, just for various technical experiments.

1:41:38And so many of these whistleblower testimonies, like a guy you broke, who then we did a show with later is Randy Anderson, talks about being at Naval Surface Warfare Crane. He's taken down in some elevator, goes deep below the ground, and then he's taken through a bunch of skiffs until he gets to, what is it, Offworld or other? Offworld Technologies Division. sees a gauntlet emitting hieroglyphics and a levitating sphere. Yeah. It's fascinating. And a lot of stories include that, include going deep underground, it seems like. What frustrates me about Randy specifically is a lot of people piled on him saying like, oh, and kind of memeing on him, trolling him, saying, why would there be a sign that says Offworld Technologies Division?

1:42:19I'd be remiss if I didn't show you this. Yeah. At the Dugway Proving Ground, the Dugway Proving Ground is... The area of experimental land is larger than the U.S. state of Rhode Island. It's like the NTTR, where it's one of the largest non-contiguous airspaces for special projects in the entire United States. It houses two major range and test facility bases, the Utah Test and Training Range, UTTR. The Dugway Proving Ground houses the Southern Range of the UTTR and the West Desert Test Center out of Army A-TEC. By the way, if anybody's listening who's interested in Battelle, go look at who spearheads the West Desert Test Center, Mr.

1:43:00Ryan W. Harris, who has a background of working for projects for the DITRA and Battelle. So go start looking at that a little bit. Interesting. Because Battelle co-manages Dugway Proving Grounds, is that right? They do a lot of work there on CBRNE stuff, specifically biological stuff. That's why there's so many stories about specifically biologics being held at Dugway Proving Ground. And speaking of, this is in the cafeteria at the West Desert Test Center. And I'll send you that so you can put it in the video. Yeah, we'll pop it up. Whoa. They do this stuff right in your face. That's so crazy.

1:43:31And this looks so realistic, too. And he got the three fingers. Yeah. Really trippy. I can't tell if there's a thumb there, if it's just three fingers. Wow. As far as Dugway goes, there's one guy I've spoken to, and he's in my Dugway video, who's had a first-hand encounter at Dugway Proving Ground. Really? Yeah, it goes by the name. First-hand encounter with a being or with a craft? No, with a craft. Undergoing various testing mechanisms. So he was a contractor for, oh gosh, the name's escaping me, but not like a Lockheed Martin, just like a standard contractor that does operations and maintenance at Dugway.

1:44:10And in the Avery section, which is right by the 308th Range Squadron, I want to say right by their airstrip at the, uh, Degway proving ground, he's doing electrical meter reading and he goes inside a facility and within that facility, which is out in the middle of nowhere on Avery, there's a craft in a very, in what's seemingly going in a state of disassembling at the bottom area of this craft that looks like a symmetrical top across its X axis. There's a, like what seems to be like a panel or a part removed where there's like an inverted cone. It kind of reminds me of the reactor Bob Lazar kind of talks about, but he's immediately held at gunpoint by InduSec personnel and taken to another area, Ditto, where he's kind of debriefed and threatened.

1:44:55And since that, he met with one of the chief scientists at Dugway. This is a guy who has a very real name. I know the name now and I'm trying to track this guy down, but this is a real person who informed this individual MS of the massive stiff or subterranean facility below Dugway, including the specific entrance, which I'll send you a picture of, which is just west east of Granite Peak, which has all sorts of weird radar rays by the 388th Range Squadron and to the northwest of Dugway German Village. It's just a tiny, it's just a tiny little structure out in the middle of nowhere. And apparently this is an elevator down.

1:45:29If anybody, because it's in vogue right now, if anybody's watching Stranger Things, in the newest season of Stranger Things, where Eleven is taken down to the secret lab, the secret facility, it's just like a literal shed in the middle of nowhere, in the middle of the desert. Similar thing. What's an interesting detail is that for apparently for above ground testing, a bunch of porta potties are sometimes moved to this region. Super weird detail because another contractor I spoke to out at Dugway who was active as recently as 2019 to 2022, I want to say would talk about, it's so strange. Sometimes in the middle of nowhere in Dugway, there will just be a bunch of random porta potties.

1:46:03So it seems like there's this weird connection. Maybe there's above ground testing of derivative technologies or assets that of course, you know, facilities are brought out for people. This guy, the second contractor, he maintained relationships with a bunch of quote unquote gray beards at Dugway. He guessed these guys are Battelle, but they don't wear, they don't say, hello, my name is Jeffrey. I'm from Battelle Memorial Institute or Lockheed Martin. His gray beard babysitter who would kind of have to walk him through would always appear fatigued after sometimes he'd meet him. And this guy would, when he would appear fatigued, this person, this friend of mine would say, hey, you know, what happened?

1:46:38Why are you so tired? He would say, oh, we had the triangles out again last night. And so this guy was saying that they would stay out all night doing triangle testing. Whoa. crazy and you trust this guy the the the ms guy who saw the craft absolutely yeah the second guy who's a contractor i don't really have a reason not to to trust him yet he has supplied me with his photo id badge of his contract time at doug way shown me direct evidence that he worked out there i've i've i have no reason not to trust that guy wow and in doug way for just basic context for the audience. So it's in Utah, right?

1:47:15And they call it Area 52 and it's sort of dubbed that. They call it Area 52, but I don't like when people call it Area 52. Area 52 is the Tonopatest Range. Tonopatest Range is literally named Area 52. Oh, interesting. And then Dugway, are there rumors that some assets were moved from Area 51 in the 90s there? Starting in the 1990s, because there was a large article. I can't remember. It might've been PopSci or pop mechanics. It was a huge expose on like Area 51 and how assets might have been moved over to Area 52, this mysterious new place in Dugway. What's interesting about that article is I have some pictures of it in one of my videos.

1:47:49The article has a bunch of pictures of like, I think like either SR-71 or F-117A Nighthawk, but also has a sticky note on it that says like, call Bobby Ray Inman. It's super, it's a super weird meta thing. Whoa. But even like Edgar Fouché, whose primary testimony in 1998 revolves around the TR-3B, talks about, hey, you know, a lot of projects were moved out to Dugway, proving out. It makes sense, less high profile. But what's weird to me is that the Nevada test and training range would have better infrastructure to house such programs. As far as I understand, there's numerous sites across the NTTR that can house, craft, underground facilities, even helicopters, possibly even hangar bays built into the side of mountains or floors.

1:48:30Do you think that some of these defense spaces are co-located deliberately with, and this is going to sound really trippy, but like natural portals or something. And the reason I ask this is because Area 51 itself was formed at the Nevada test site or next to the Nevada test site. Nevada test site was the site of the most domestic atomic tests in the early fifties. If you read, you know, Robert Hastings, UFOs and nukes, where UFOs show up most. It's around nuclear sites. All of the first crashes are around either high power radar or nuclear sites. You know, Roswell site of the largest nuclear stockpile in the U S there's an emergency meeting in 1949, I think at killing, um, you know, that Robert Hastings also writes about between basically, you know, I think army counterintel, you know, air force offices, special investigations, you know, CIA, like they're freaking out around UFOs showing up all over nuclear sites.

1:49:30And then you have the Jake Barber testimony where it's like there's some sort of mental connection, you know, with the UFO. And so if I were studying UFOs, I would look for places that are weird to begin with, like Skinwalker Ranch. And maybe Skinwalker Ranch is like the limited hangout version of this, you know, and I would put my defense stuff there and I would try to engage in the weird UFO shit where it's already kind of happening. Well, correct me if I'm wrong. Didn't Jake Barber talk about some of the like light orbs or weird, non really physically identifiable crafty to over the range would like almost phase into mountains or like disappear in rock formation?

1:50:10Yes. And you have Ross Colthart doing his investigative research at Bradshaw Ranch in Sedona, Arizona. We have all this weird stuff. I think it's like supposedly associated with the university, but you have all these kind of armed guards there, you know, and it's and you and multiple people in the area. see the crafts going into this mountain and sentinels of ether talks about that too jake barbara's book so i'm wondering if there's this weird co-location of like paranormal stuff is already happening at this place let's study it and instantiate it you know and and and house it in some official defense capacity yeah i think i think there's probably three possibilities and they're all super likely and they probably all are a thing you house these sites by already weird locations with activity.

1:50:56You know, maybe if that 4chan whistleblower is to be believed and there's places within the Bahamas that that large hamburger-shaped mothership that 3D prints UFOs to spec houses, gosh, I don't know, maybe... They say the Bahamas. I think, yeah, like Bermuda, I think is an area of frequency. Well, gosh, it would make sense to have... Well, you have magnetic anomalies there. Autek is in the Bahamas. Yeah, that's what I was going to say. Weapons testing facility. It would make sense to have that there. Yeah. And then that's one thing that's probably true. Two, that's probably true. Put these installations in the middle of nowhere so you can bring the triangles out where people aren't around for hundreds of miles.

1:51:28And three, hide stuff in plain sight. I wouldn't be surprised if there are access to stiffs, SAP Fs that are literally in corporate parks or shopping centers. Interesting. Do you have anything specific there that you're thinking about? Not specifics that I want to talk about, but I wouldn't be surprised if in the future, if more locations are spoken about, that some of these places are in plain sight. Do you think there's anything near LAX?

1:51:57Maybe. Yeah, yeah, because it's near like, it's very close to the Antelope Valley. And in Los Angeles, there's numerous FFRDCs, numerous locations in DOD defense laboratories. I would not be surprised if there's a large infrastructure underground there. How many UFOs do you think are sitting in hangars across the United States? I don't know. If you look to what Parber spoke about before he went public, he would say over his specific range, one to two a year. That number seems high for me. That seems quite high. Maybe he also meant that they were downing derivative vehicles to test their hardness to the dog whistle and the weird.

1:52:33Or one to two a year might include just random material. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That isn't like a whole craft. Or intake from other locations that they can have the infrastructure to house the craft in there. And Hal Puthoff, I think, stated a number on Joe Rogan. Didn't he say like 12 to 15? I think that's low. Something like that. I think that's low. That seems a little low to me too. Maybe 40 to 50? Okay. Maybe 50 to 100? Because I do think there's validity to the U.S. has constructed offensive weaponry against UFOs. If we look at the Aztec crash, a case you, Chris Ramsey, and me also all think extremely highly of.

1:53:08One of the prevailing theories is that the lash-up radar network, which was constructed over New Mexico to protect against Soviet bomber attacks, which, by the way, J. Andrew Kistner spoke about high-powered radar facilities messing with the UFOs in his 1994 disclosures. But one of the prevailing Aztec theories is that these super high powered, really weird radar networks, there might have been high intensive microwave systems that messed with the craft and brought it down. And then in fast forward to 1983, I think there's an argument that can be made that in the Strategic Defense Initiative or Star Wars program under Ronald Reagan, that the Lethalian Target Hardening Program or the Particle Beam Weapons Program were meant to be space based systems that utilized microwave weaponry to shoot down UFOs.

1:53:48Well, this was the weirdest part of the Malmgren story that I, you know, again, I hold him in super high esteem. And I think there is a lot of weirdness around. I feel like there was a coordinated information operation to kind of take him out, to be honest. They changed his Wikipedia page. Yeah. Yeah, that was ugly. The blog post was like, we asked XYZ person and they hadn't heard of him over and over again, which is like you're talking about like this knock who like is was clearly like I don't doubt his connections for a second. The guy was connected at extremely elite levels. He knew a lot of very interesting people.

1:54:24And I think he was in a lot of the rooms that he said he was in. So I think that was kind of kind of, you know, BS. But the weirdest part of Malmgrim's testimony, which didn't even occur directly with me, he was apparently, again, final few days on his deathbed speaking to Pippa, his daughter. And he told her that he had seen an interview with the surviving or one of the surviving alien beings from Roswell, which is fascinating. Like a recorded interview with this being. and that the being suggested that we use like high power radar to take out crafts. Yeah. And then you get into these weird, like, are we in some sort of like, are we being used in some sort of like as a proxy in like a larger cosmic war between these extraterrestrial beings?

1:55:15And he was involved, I believe, in the strategic defense initiative. Yeah. And if you look at Bluegill Triple Prime, And it was kind of a proto SDI strategic defense initiative thing that he was doing. It was missile defense. Missile defense was this big issue at the time because you couldn't really kinetically like, you know, we didn't have like interceptors that could like knock into like, you know, like like Soviet missiles. And so, you know, in that case, it was like this X-ray burst that would like take out the surrounding missiles. Really interesting. There's this like Rand Corporation paper, I think, kind of scoping it out before they actually executed on it in 63.

1:55:57And SAIC was up to the gills working on those programs as well for SDI. Yeah, yeah. They were one of the largest contractors, right, for SDI. What's interesting to me is that there are some theories out there that the actual idea for SDI originated with Eisenhower, not Reagan. And then, of course, what was established under Eisenhower? Well, the NRO. There's a theory that could be constructed that as soon as we got the NRO up there with their taking over the Corona satellite program and all sorts of keyhole satellites, they immediately started getting a bunch of imagery and signals intelligence of a bunch of UFOs.

1:56:29Yeah. Well, now you have Beatrice Villareal coming out of this peer reviewed paper. This is wild to me because it's like you academia has nothing to say. And kudos to, you know, Brian Keating, who's actually usually kind of more on the anti UFO side. But he's like, you know, this has to be contended with. You have Sabina Hassenfeld. There are a few people with real credentials and, you know, larger platforms saying Beatrice Villareal, who's Stockholm University, you know, astronomer with actually a physics background as well. The Palomar plates. Palomar is this observatory in California. It was the most prominent observatory in use in the 50s between 49 and 57 pre Sputnik going up into space.

1:57:12You have over 100 ,000 transients, light reflecting objects. It's insane. And nobody has a good debunk to this day, you know, and it's peer reviewed. And isn't there data that Donald Menzel and the Menzel plates, he was one of the ones kind of stripping some of these plates out? Not only is there like that a rumor, that is from a book by Dorit Hoflite, who became a respected astronomer in her own right, was at Harvard with Donald Menzel and writes about this. And by the way, Donald Menzel not only held extremely high clearances in just about every agency you could, you know, name, he was rumored to be, you know, Majestic 12.

1:57:54I believe Kennedy, while he was at Harvard, had an interest in like astrophysics. And so he had some, you know, relationship with Don Menzel. But Don Menzel was also head of the, and I always botch this, but the earliest version of NIST. So it's like the Bureau of like standards in the US. Yeah. So it was like like, you know, the the the organization that like creates like the, you know, encryption standards and like, you know, like the, you know, decides that we're not going on the metric system or whatever. Like the kind of the most reality management style job you could think of. And he's the guy caught destroying plates by somebody who's very reputable, Dora Hofflight.

1:58:32So, yeah, it's weird. And there were only like there there weren't that many observatories, you know, at the time that were even functioning. And so I think if you get one other observatory to do like if it's if it's pretty correlated, they have transients also from 1949, 1957 that line up with what Beatrice finds. To me, that's like game over. Yeah, literally like you're talking about like light reflecting objects that aren't comets, meteoroids, you know, meteoroids, asteroids. It's not satellites like she's clearly debunked all of that enough to like the average astronomer for them to like. peer review it.

1:59:12And like, that seems like a, you know, an easy first order debunk that she's getting around. So this is crazy news. And already the armchair debunk is to say it was Project Mogul balloons. Yeah. Did somebody say that? That's absurd. Yeah. Just going back to the Roswell playbook. Oh my God. Yeah. Yeah. Beatrice is doing the Lord's work right now. It's amazing. Let me ask you this, because you were talking about the number of crash that have craft craft that have crashed. Yeah. If you had to rank, let's just say your top five UFO crash approval events and favorite most credible just yep yeah most credible what would you say those are your top five i would say i would say put aztec up there for sure you have five witnesses you have the lash up radar system you have you know clear obstruction with silas newton and leo gebauer and stuff so i'd put that up there i would now put magenta uh up there and i don't know you know depending on when this comes out i'll either tease here now or this will will uh have come out already but marconi who invented the radio yeah this is like getting like oppenheimer's like you know offspring saying that he worked on ufos marconi's grandson i was able to track him down and get an interview he's a prince prince marconi and he was like my grandfather was on cabinet rs 33 this cabinet with mussolini and they were working on the extraterrestrial issue In 1933, the Italian government set up this group, the Secret Research 33 Cabinet, where Marconi was the president and Enrico Fermi was the vice president.

2:00:44And they made some searches and studies on this phenomenon. Because 1933, they say that in Varese, north of Italy, there were some apparitions of so-called UFOs. In Magenta, Italy, or do you know where specifically? Varese, it's northeast Italy. Northeast, yes. Varese, it's north of Milan in Lombardy. Between Lombardy and Venetian land. He couldn't go much deeper than that, but that's fascinating. You would now have archival stuff that corroborates RS-33 existing. And then you have David Grush, who to me, I hold in highest esteem when it comes to UFO whistleblower. So I would put magenta up there now.

2:01:28Um, I really liked the nineties Brookhaven crash. I think that's really fascinating. Yeah. It's a great case. There's a really interesting testimony from a sheriff around that, that I, you know, I think is very strong. And then I, I, to me, it pattern matches cause they have Cosmotron, the particle accelerator. I think particle accelerators and nuclear seem to attract UFOs. So I think that's up there for me. I would say Kecksburg with the Eric Walker, you know, connection, I think is really fascinating. Um, and then as a final one, I don't know. Yeah. You know, I'm interested in the 1897 one. I don't think there's a ton of evidence.

2:02:07I mean, that wouldn't be one of my highest kind of conviction ones. I don't know. What would you say beyond that? Definitely Aztec and Magenta. I'm right there with you. Kecksburg as well. I love the 1974 Coyame, New Mexico crash. There's not a ton of supporting evidence, but the story there, if true, is very, very disturbing. And also pretty interesting just the way that apparently the Dineb report is a CIA-directed logistics plan like the OGA would do to gather rapid reaction teams and assets to go retrieve the craft, as well as providing overhead intelligence of the Mexican team trying to get the craft.

2:02:41That's a great case. Apparently the Mexican team was either killed by a CBR or by a like leak within the craft or the Americans killed him, which is far more likely in my opinion. Maybe that ties over in the Sentinels of Aether. We'll kill other soldiers in Koyame, Mexico. Oh, interesting. You might've been writing about that cryptically. I'm going to, I'm going to, by the way, I'm going to go with five as Weygan. Yes. Okay. I was going to say, wait, yeah. Weygan's up there. Weygan's up there. there's a ton of rich stories because Wiggins is alive I'm thinking about 1 through 4 you don't have anybody alive talking about the retrieval I mean that seems like super you have a person who was part of the retrieval I think the Jake Barber thing is really interesting as well I want more details there I wish he could have shared more he said he's held back more than he said which is frustrating but as another one I'd throw in Kingman of course with Dr.

2:03:40Wang oh yeah Kingman I would put that up there too and how Steinman writes about Wang also being involved with the Aztec crash and how Wang is this figure that you can never really track down besides some right pat stuff he died pretty early on what an incredible that's an amazing story so you have Operation Upshot Knothole which was a test in 1953 I think it was a Nevada test site, right? Arizona. It was Arizona. Yes. I thought it was Nevada, but the crash ended up occurring in Kingman. I'm pretty sure it did. I think you're right. Yeah, it occurred just across. It was close, but yeah. And then it was like Arthur Stancil.

2:04:19Yep, who has records to show him operating. At Wright-Patt. Yeah. Wright-Airfield at the time. Yeah, and Operation Upshot Knothole. And Operation Upshot Knothole. He was there, and they were testing, I believe part of Operation Upshot Knothole was how the surrounding environment would get affected by these detonations. It would blast nukes from artillery. It's crazy. And it was like surrounding neighborhoods. What happened? It was like really crazy. That was about the time we'd blow up atomic weapons and send in army regiments right after the blast. So nuts, man. So, yeah. So he is then like, what is he, like blindfolded?

2:04:53And he's like, he's like drives like into Kingman, Arizona. And then he sees like a little being in a cot or something. Yeah. It's like a makeshift tent that there's a tiny little brownish bean, possibly charred and mangled. Because he was sent in to do ballistic trajectory analysis. That's right. Because the craft had theoretically impacted at incredible speeds and disrupted much of the surrounding area. But the craft itself wasn't damaged. And the craft itself, I think, looked like two pans, like fused together. And so Arthur Stantz, yeah, on record at right pat. And then here's what's really interesting.

2:05:28Eric Henry Wing is this sort of famed guy who's head of special projects at Wright Airfield. And I believe he studied in Vienna with Victor Schauberger. Yes, he did. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Really interesting. This famous kind of Austrian naturalist who believed in this impeller propulsion system and had his own flying saucer designs. And there's this question of like, did Eric Henry Wing exist? And you have some evidence that maybe he did exist. Oh, yes. No, he existed. He existed. If you look through the DTIC, the Defense Technical Information Center, you can find actual, you can find old engineering documents with Eric Henry Wang on it.

2:06:09But we might have a new kind of break in the case of actually finding photos of Eric Henry Wang at Wright-Patterson back in the 1950s. If we can do that, I think that would be get those photos and actually put kind of a face to the name. And location. And location. That's going to open up new avenues of exploring Wang. And I was I was maybe playing a little coy. I could say definitively he was real because I have a researcher friend who's in touch with his daughter now. So like, yeah, he was he was a real guy. And then here's what's really interesting about that William Steinman book Aztec. He says that Eric Henry Wang was erased from the Internet.

2:06:44He was the only guy that when Steinman because Steinman was a great researcher. He would go knocking on everybody's door. and he was trying to figure out what was up with this Eric Henry Wayne guy who was head of special projects at Wright Airfield then gets moved to Kirtland Air Force Base. Yeah. And he's like, who is this guy? Yeah. Yeah. Now Sandia. And so he's like, what's going on with this guy? And he keeps getting these slaps on the wrist. Like, don't look at him. Don't look at him. He goes, I figured out he reported to a guy named H.A.K. Yep. And guess who H.A.K. is? Kissinger. Yeah. It's Henry A.

2:07:15Kissinger. And there was like a source that Steinman was talking You had information about Wang that went cold on him. Well, he showed up Maria Wang. I believe he met his wife. And Maria Wang, like, yeah, I think it flipped on him or something. Steinman is a treasure. The Aztec book, How Steinman Went to Colorado Through Court Records to Find Out How Gebauer and Silas Newton Were Unfairly Attacked in Their Court Case is astonishing. You know, Silas Newton and Leo Gebauer were convicted of fraud for perpetuating the doodlebug device, which has very real historical significance in anti-submarine warfare detection in World War II by spearheaded by Vannevar Bush.

2:07:57But that even in their court case, there was a similar, not the same device supplanted into the court case to kind of frame them as kooks and frauds. And Steinman did all of this. He went through. He was also a pioneer talking to Eric Walker. He was he was a pioneer on numerous cases. So numerous cases and even Scully, you know, the case behind the flying saucer, like the, you know, kind of original, like archetypal UFO book that that outlines this kind of Aztec crash. He was trusted with a lot of like celebrity sort of like really sensitive information. And so whoever Dr. G was this sort of like, you know, consortium of scientists.

2:08:34Yeah, exactly. All of whom worked on anti-summarine programs under Vannevar Bush. So wild. So wild. Yeah, Scott and Suzanne Ramsey have really, they deserve all the credit for digging up this kind of short list of eight to nine scientists that likely are being represented in this pseudonym, Dr. G. Yeah. And they're getting in touch with Silas Newton. Silas Newton, by the way, was worth, I don't know if you know this,$20 million at the time. Really rich oil man. Yeah. So that's like a few hundred million now. Yeah. And pro golfer too. I didn't know that. That's amazing. Pro or semi pro golfer. So no reason to lie about, you know, no reason to con anybody with a doodlebug, no reason to lie about a UFO crash.

2:09:16But also in their court case, Gebauer and Newton summoned multiple witnesses who spoke to the doodlebugs efficacy in finding oil deposits under their system. I can't remember the exact acronym. I think it was like MAP or something, but like a magnetic resonance thing to detect cavities underground that they actually found success with. Yeah, interesting. Well, I know he was really interested in magnetism. Yes. Yes. And Silas Newton in his diaries would talk about Wilbert B. Smith, Canadian radio engineer who spearheaded Canada's first project on UFOs, who was told by Robert Saarbacher, you know, a consultant to the defense research board spearheaded by Vannevar Bush that UFOs existed, that their modus operandi was unknown, but efforts were going under Vannevar Bush to study them.

2:09:58And it was the most highly kept secret in the United States government classified even higher than the Manhattan Project. All these sort of interconnected things that are so interesting.

2:10:35So interesting. seems more suitable to RDT and E work, research development, test and evaluation. You have massive ranges, Dougway and the Nevada test and training range on which you could test derivative technologies. If we're looking out east, of course, we talked about the Outek, Atlantic Undersea Test and Evaluation Command, which is a Navy major range and test facility base. Patuxent River as well. I think whistleblower Matthew Brown talked about omentum hangers at Patuxent River housing some anomalous stuff I often remember EG &G eventually transitioned into Patuxent River. Wasn't Sal Pais also Pax River?

2:11:13Yeah, he was at Pax River when he filed his patents. Yeah, and his patents seem like how a UFO might work. Yeah, like an internal mass production triangular craft. Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's weird. And with Matthew Brown, I'm not sure I agree with him about omentum hangars. Part of what I have come to strongly believe and would contest with that statement is I think the owners of the hangars are FFRDCs. They're the ones who manage it. Interesting. Miter Hanger, yes. But this is part of a theory I have about why the Kona Blue PSAP failed. I think there's a very strict chain of command. People say legacy programs have no oversight.

2:11:47I disagree completely. I think they have alternative oversight that is extremely strictly managed. And I don't think contractors are necessarily allowed to have hangers storing craft. I think it is the FFRDCs because it's that go-co government-owned contractor-operated method that, you know, if crap really hits the fan, the USG can take possession of it if it needs to. And you wouldn't think the DOD or IC would allow technologies and craft of unknown origins to sit in contractor hands uncontested. But so Pax River, I'd imagine MITRE has quite a bit of involvement out there in Pax River. The big, the crown jewel of out east is Crystal City in Virginia.

2:12:25There was one firsthand legacy guy, a friend of mine I was speaking to once, and he said that the answer to most of what you're looking for is in Crystal City, Virginia. Really? Crystal City houses eight of 10 of the U.S.'s biggest defense contractors, numerous FFRDCs. Is Crystal City in Arlington? Yeah, near Arlington. And then, of course, you got that Chantilly region with the NRO headquarters and SAIC headquarters and all that. But I imagine Crystal City is likely where, I guess, the lifeblood of legacy programs is executed, the framework, the agreements, what contractors are rotated through, what programs are rotated through, where a lot of the bigot list access is handled.

2:13:09And isn't John Peterson based out there, the kind of the Arlington Institute? Yeah, yeah. Futuristic studies or whatever. Of course, BDM McLean was out there where the Advanced Theoretical Physics Working Group was held. Interesting. So that's where that group was with Hal Putoff and Okie Shannon kind of looking into UFOs. And then under Washington, D.C., the Pentagon, I have reason to believe there's a very large underground facility, not the NMCC, the National National Something Command Center, the NMCC. It's not that. It's a massive facility deep beneath the Pentagon that likely houses some sort of very clandestine office that at least in years past would manually process read-on access to USAPs.

2:13:57Weird place deep under the Pentagon. There's some interesting data to confirm its existence, but of course it's still contested. out. And then, of course, lastly, we have the Y-12 complex in Oak Ridge, Tennessee, which, hey, Sean Kirkpatrick, why did you run to Oak Ridge after after you fled from Arrow? Why did your position, which was like, you know, director for intelligence programs at Oak Ridge, why something similar to that? Why was that pulled off their page? And why in 2025 has Sean Kirkpatrick's LLC, Non-Linear Solutions, subcontracting, subcontracting under MITRE for U.S. Spacecom. Yeah, it's so clear that Arrow is like basically counterintelligent.

2:14:39Oh, absolutely. And Jim Lukatzky sort of said this on this last Weaponized podcast, but it's like, I mean, I think Glenn Gaffney was the director of science and technology for the CIA, was on the board of Arrow. Like, he might still be for all I know. You know, it's sort of... It's like, yeah, like the Carlisle group or Ronald Moultrie of the Carlisle group helping set up Arrow and he and Sean Kirkpatrick are kind of smirking at each other saying there's nothing to UFO. And speaking of somebody scrubbing their resume, you pointed this out in a great video. Ronald Moultrie basically created the auspices under which Arrow was created.

2:15:13Also was board director of Battelle Memorial Institute and deleted that off his LinkedIn. Scrubbed it. Scrubbed it. And part of the Carlyle Group. Yeah, that's right. I think, don't quote me on it, but I'm almost positive he was also part of MITRE. That's crazy. MITRE will show up everywhere and anywhere. With Sean Kirkpatrick, I'm not sure if he had exposure to legacy programs before his work at Aero. One could probably argue with his positions in Spacecom and with intelligence, he might have been exposed to programs of M-Inter-SIGINT satellites and overhead collection platforms actually collecting UFOs.

2:15:45There's a big misconception there, by the way. People think that the overhead satellites, NRO satellites, are just picking up live feeds of UFOs. No, this stuff is all parsed into data. All the data is transmitted from the satellites electronically. So a program like Immaculate Constellation or a legacy program satellite, because Immaculate Constellation isn't a legacy program. It was a reactionary USAP established in 2017, would clip out data that would probably depict anomalies like a UFO and sequester it into MCOM or another legacy program site. So who knows if Sean Kirkpatrick had previous exposure to UFO legacy programs, but a strong argument could be made that whilst he was head of Arrow, he was he was retroactively briefed into various aspects of legacy programs.

2:16:25So he would know what to lie about in the Arrow historical. Yeah. And I think the larger point is like there's just such a conflict of interest. Like if you have some independent review board like for the people of the U.S. around whether there is non-human intelligence, any of this stuff exists. Don't pick the guy who at 17 won, you know, an award from the DOE, from the Department of Energy at Brookhaven National Labs and ever since has been doing contract work in that area. Like pick somebody who's going to be impartial. It's senior research scientist to SAIC to NRO. You know, specifically, I think back to then you must ask the question, what did Arrow lie about in that testimony?

2:17:05One specific example we know for a fact that was lied about in Arrow Historical Report Volume 1 was Michael Herrera's testimony. We actually pried his MFR from Arrow, his memorandum for record, because the Arrow historical report said Herrera spoke about an extraterrestrial spacecraft in U.S. special forces, neither of which he spoke about. So if Sean Kirkpatrick was retroactively briefed into parts of legacy programs just to know enough to obfuscate the report, that means if he lied about Herrera's testimony, does he have knowledge of direct action crash retrieval personnel? interesting yeah and you have meetings you have pictures of him in like a meeting with brandon fugle giving like oh the one you know yeah yeah yeah yeah weird kind of look over his shoulder at the guy who's taking the photo of him yeah and um you know so clearly he was being briefed on some of this stuff you know earlier than he likes to admit and anybody who talks to him says he's awful yeah he's repugnant and he seems like he just um you know you mentioned this as well in your video, he will adamantly say extraterrestrial.

2:18:07He will never say non-human where, yeah, maybe we don't have a smoking gun that these things are from another specific planet. Remember that David Grush B-roll footage with Ross Colthart when he speaks about biologics, he says presumably extraterrestrial, but not a for sure confirmation. That's why they say non-human. Presumably extraterrestrial, but not for sure. Yeah. No, I mean, I think it's hard to know. I think maybe the biggest misconception of all in this whole disclosure conversation is the idea that the government has a monopoly on metaphysical truth. Right. Like they have there's somebody there who like has this core theory of how the world works that is way more accurate than somebody on the outside.

2:18:47I think they have a ton of asymmetric data on this issue for sure. And we are a lot of it is worthy of disclosure. And this needs to be outside of stuff that's like extremely, you know, like weaponizable at like low cost or whatever. Like everything else should be like completely disclosed. It's the nature of reality. But like we would still have to piece together the nature of reality. I don't think the government's sitting on that. No, it seems like they're entire, as David Grush says, asymmetrical warfare advantages and feudalistic dominance. Yes. That's what they're not out there philosophizing as to like the larger truths of these beings.

2:19:25Speaking of Sean Kirkpatrick, I'm reminded to when Susan Goh was asked if by a FOIA researcher or somebody, if they could amend her statement about no extraterrestrials to include non-human intelligence, to which she said, no, you absolutely cannot amend my statement to include we have no evidence of non-human intelligence. What a piece of work. the woman who controls the lease of Sean Kirkpatrick. Well, if that's not a tell, I don't know what is. Like, that's crazy. That shows a lot of insecurity. Right. But we were talking about facilities. She ran psyops stuff. Yeah, she wrote papers on psyops.

2:19:56Just like Sean Kirkpatrick wrote papers on influence of people in, like, social networks and stuff. It's like social engineering. Yeah. Just like Arrow hired Sandcorp, which specializes in insider threat protection and whistleblower leaks. Tim Phillips went blabbering on a podcast saying Sandcorp was hired to connect Arrow to subject matter experts. That's not in Sandcorp's scope of operations, so I'm not sure I believe that. But yeah, Arrow was doing all sorts of dubious activities. Don't you find yourself caught, though, sometimes between these obfuscators of truth who are clearly bad actors?

2:20:29Like everybody we just mentioned, clearly a bad actor. And then some people on the pro UFO side who also seem like they're at times bad actors. Yeah. And so it's like this weird you're like flanked by like bad vibes. It's a minefield. It's a minefield. And and like and then you ask the question like are we being led down this path where like the whole framework of how we're thinking about this is like messed up because you clearly do have bad actors on both sides. I think so. Yeah. Controlled disclosure. That's why, like, if there's one person whose word I would take at face value would be David Grush.

2:21:04Yeah. He does not seem to be giving some sort of limited disclosure. He seems watching anything with him, you can get a very clear depiction of what his character is and how his brain operates. And you can kind of infer exactly why he's doing what he's doing at great personal cost to himself, kind of directly answering as much as he possibly can. speaking on all aspects of the subject, you know, non-human intelligence, presumably extraterrestrial, how these programs are funded and so forth. Well, I think, I think on the process per David Grush, most of the whistleblowers, most of them, and there's probably some exceptions, are good actors.

2:21:41Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The whistleblowers. Like the guys, especially who like experienced a thing or like haplessly were, they were tasked to investigate a thing like David Grush or they, They, you know, and they they like fell into like, you know, seeing things that they couldn't look away from. Or folks on the SSCI, I would put in that category as well. The Senate Select Committee on Intelligence who are tasked with investigating this. Absolutely. People like Kirk McConnell and some other staffers and who, you know, definitely knew a lot about these things and provided a real pipeline from legacy programs to Congress so that these guys could show up in skiffs and stuff.

2:22:18for sure. And then at the same time, there are all sorts of weird guys who pop up in the pro UFO world and then they're also doing some other sketchy stuff in Intel world and you're like... Yeah, limited disclosure, promising researchers and folks various things and then doing other things. And it's just, it's kind of a mess. It's a mess. And all I'm saying is it's like, I think it's easy to go after the obfuscating guys ad hominem and then it's harder to go after the pro guys ad hominem because like i think both of us are like pro disclosure yes and so i'm like if you're gonna be like a weirdo and like other aspects of your life but you're like you're pushing like like to the nature of reality are the stakes yeah i don't fucking care about your like other weird shit i'm not gonna get caught up in that because i'm gonna get distracted from the truth if i get caught up in that.

2:23:13Well, the thing about managing, like I think Carl Nell, you know, who's always been, you know, to me, a good guy. And like my I've enjoyed my interactions with him. I find him to be extremely intellectually just brilliant. But he just went on a podcast and he said disclosure is dead. I guess the postulate I've got is that this recent cycle of disclosure that we might say started in 2017 with the Navy videos and Lou Elizondo coming out and and as a whistleblower were making various assertions, that that cycle of disclosure has effectively ended with the failure to pass the UAP Disclosure Act and with sort of the fourth or third in the series of hearings on the topic that I think increasingly have moved the needle less and less.

2:24:03And I think you are going to end up there if you attempt to do the managed. The managed disclosure thing is the most Sisyphean exercise. And like, I think maybe the most telling thing in the not this last congressional testimony with Dylan Borland, but the one before that, the closed one with like Elizondo Avi Loeb and Eric Davis. Eric Davis said the NHI themselves are controlling disclosure. Yeah. Which is this logical fallacy. Like, how do you control disclosure in a world where those superior beings exist? They're obviously going to be managing the process. Boy, that event was a mess, was it not?

2:24:39That was a total mess. The crop circle or whatever. Gosh. Yeah. And yeah, speaking of Eric Davis, it's the same thing. I think he's provided some extremely valuable intelligence. I think the fundamental facts of the Wilson Davis memoir are very true in the sense that Thomas Wilson was denied access into legacy programs while deputy director of the DIA. But then like I believe that Eric Davis has lied to my face about the success of derivative technologies and alien reproduction vehicles. I think he has, as close as we are now, told me outright fallacies about that and whether it's he's just too proud to admit that he doesn't understand the science or more likely, in my opinion, it's a classic program protection strategy.

2:25:19It seems like with a lot of the most famous characters in this space, their disclosures come with strings attached or some things pocketed away or compartmentalized or half-truths. truths it's interesting also how like certain cases are like like with eric davis he seems like you know i talked to him about the aztec crash he's just so dogmatically opposed to that crash right and if you look at that with an open mind first principles in fact i think on the wikipedia is still aztec crash hoax it is like uh you know literally in the name and but then if you look at it with an open mind you meet scott and suzanne ramsey who are these really amazing people north Carolina, independent researchers who have small business and have poured, I want to say,$600 ,000 plus into this investigation over decades.

2:26:09And they have so much evidence. I mean, I went to the crash site with them. This thing happened. Something happened there. And I don't know if it's dogmatism on Eric Davis's part. I don't know where he's coming from or what the deal is. But then conversely, he also is very pro the 1954 Del Rio, Texas crash incident, which that's a huge can of worms because there's two crashes there. 1955, Robert Willingham in Del Rio, Texas, and the 1950 Del Rio crash, which is actually El Indio slash Guerrero, Texas, Mexico, which is only really talked about in the Eisenhower briefing document of the Majestic 12 documents.

2:26:49So he'll kind of dogmatically shoot down Aztec, but support a very convoluted case without much evidence to support or even investigate or chew into it. Yeah, it's tough. I mean, it's funny. You got me thinking when you asked my top five crashes, like the confidence level drops off a ton for me after maybe number seven or eight or something, because you have all these like Leonard Springfield cases with like it's just pseudonyms. And you're like, I don't know, you know, like, like even, you know, even the Lawrence Livermore thing you mentioned, like, you know, maybe that has, you know, a name attached to it and a guy in, you know, 1990 or one or whatever that, you know, came out.

2:27:29But it's some of these crashes just feel like really like, you know, the magenta thing. I now have Marconi's grandson, but we have no living witnesses of this crash. It's just it's tough with some of these things. It's the same thing with Ryan Wood's excellent book, Magic Eyes Only. There's really intriguing cases that, you know, likely have some validity to them. But there's not enough to really sift through and chew through. There's not enough people to speak to. There's not enough named characters. I mean, I'm sure there's quite a few crash retrievals in Ryan Wood's book, Magic Eyes Only, that are legit.

2:27:58There's just not enough information to parse through or form a strong opinion on. Yeah, exactly. It's tough. Well, do you think, like, this feels like it can't be containable over a long enough period of time? Like, I guess this brings like this, this, this other, like, kind of more deeper ontological question of like, are there like reality gatekeepers? Like these crashes happen and like, okay, maybe we have some immaculate constellation. The NRO has like, you know, first, first, first access, you know, eyes on all this stuff. Then maybe you have some like OGA style thing with through the CIA.

2:28:35maybe it's not OGA, you know, anymore, but like, you know, some rapid response teams or whatever, like you say, you have all of that. You would still expect some really hard concrete proof in the form of materials ending up in civilian hands, like at some point soon, you know? Yeah. So, yeah, I would hope so. I, I don't know how likely it would be that a bunch of civilians are going to come upon a crash retrieval. Uh, you know, maybe most crash retrievals occur today because the craft are shot down. Do you think that's the case? I think that it's likely many of them are, but then there's also like the donation hypothesis of craft left for people.

2:29:17And why aren't, why are those left in the middle of the desert and so forth? And then maritime crash retrievals, that only, you know, like the Baltic sea anomaly, if that's a craft that only like well-equipped, well-funded organizations are going to be able to retrieve. And I genuinely think that since the 1960, see that NRO and other combat support agencies like the NGA and then direct action elements like a tier one or tier one adjacent assets and CIA elements and all sorts of intelligence and DOD elements will be first on the scene even even halfway across the world yeah if there's a if there's a crash in in India in the in the mountains of India I think the U.S.

2:29:56is going to get there before any sort of you know local authorities or local on-site personnel do you think like why do think the u.s is so far ahead of other countries when it comes to disclosure like it feels like russia china have said very little about this stuff is it just kind of an open system closed system china they'll just kill you right and also like the i think that the way but why isn't that because like more institutional uh components of the united states have started to push disclosure why is there no one in china being like you know maybe this would actually be good for us to have some sort of like limited disclosure?

2:30:32Like we talked about the managed disclosure of people in the U.S. Why aren't there equivalents? Maybe they're still on the back foot. Uh-huh. Maybe they're still trying to adapt reverse engineer technologies to their ISR platforms into night airspace. Maybe they know because of just how spine and infiltration works that the U.S. is far more advanced. So if they open up the can of worms and we have a global disclosure, sure, Russia may have a couple tic-tacs up in their mountains and China may have some recovered vehicles and made some progress in adapting electro-optic cloaking, but they know that we are the big baddies.

2:31:01And if the whole can of worms is open, we are positioned as the global superpower for the next 10 ,000 years. It stands to reason if these countries know they're on the back foot, which of course they would be because there's been a lot of political instability in Russia and China over the years without the same sort of access and superpower leading that we have had. I mean, for example, the US has been the big bad political superpower. So, you know, with five eyes retrieval groups, we have elements all over the world where if a craft crashes, we probably get first dibs. Yeah. Do you think, you know, because you could make a flip side argument to that, which is like you have strong men like Putin and Xi.

2:31:42Xi named himself dictator for life, I think, in 2016 or something where there's this long planning element, this long time horizon ability to make decisions. You know, I think in China, it's like reinstate the sort of celestial empire in 2049, you know, and, you know, you know, obviously their plans to probably overtake Taiwan and like, you know, the next few years, maybe. And and so in the U.S., you have like, you know, this kind of, you know, temporary this temp, you know, that gets into office. Maybe they get two terms if they're lucky or whatever. So do you think, you know, there's John Alexander, who's in and around UFO lore, like, you know, up to his neck.

2:32:23And he, you know, he said that the Majestic 12, you know, and like the elite governance systems around UFOs are kind of like almost euphemisms for continuity of government programs. So this idea that, you know, I think in Eisenhower's time, you had the 5412 committee, which is this interagency coordination committee to kind of allow for plausible deniability if the president wanted some dirty work done that he didn't want to be involved with. That turned into, I believe, the 303 committee, the committee of 40. Do you think and then we hear about people like Dick Cheney, Henry Kissinger, these types who like if there was a government behind the government, those guys would be involved in that government.

2:33:06Like Kissinger was doing all sorts of rogue shit, was playing Nixon like a fiddle. You could say the same thing with Cheney vis-a-vis Bush and American foreign policy. Do you think there's a government behind our government doing the long time horizon planning on the UFO issue? Probably because in the way legacy programs work, it's a parallel chain of command and parallel chain of oversight that exists right next to, you know, the executive branch, possibly partly within the executive branch, within U.S. DODIC systems, self-funded intelligence agencies. They can do what they want. They don't adhere to the whims of the president.

2:33:43So by all intents and purposes, these these, you know, if you look at Catherine Austin Fitz talking about 17 to 21 trillion dollars embedded in the U.S. black budget just since like the 1990s alone, these the legacy programs are better funded, better technology, more powerful than the United States government. So this essentially is a shadow government and like a deep state for all intents and purposes. And maybe that is also why Russia and China are far behind us on the topic. There seems to be a far more homogenous group within them. You know, Xi Jinping and Putin are like the modelists of those countries.

2:34:18They are those two are probably spearheading their own respective countries, reverse engineering and retrieval programs. The U.S. I mean, our government is kind of on its heels against this parallel system that can control these programs that can harness U.S. assets whenever it wants in theater or at home, can fire on other blue assets and can fund itself better and faster and can infiltrate anywhere and can deploy men at arms. It's very disturbing, the implications of the power of legacy programs. Yeah. So we mentioned a lot of these places that probably house UFOs, and you talk about historical corroboration for that.

2:34:56What about places in the United States that house alien bodies? Are you confident in any of those locations? By its description, that would probably be Dugway. Okay. That'd probably be one of the biggest places, as well as maybe like Fort Detrick, Maryland. wherever there's Battelle and some of Battelle's like biological focused FFRDCs. I can't remember the acronyms right now, but wherever Battelle is located, I would highly believe that these are the places that where bodies are stored. You know, historically bodies were kept on ice at Wright-Patterson flown from Roswell. But with the evolution of legacy programs, there are probably there, which is very scary to think about.

2:35:36There are probably laboratories that house deceased non-human biologics. Are you in touch with anybody who has seen an alien body? Yeah. And what do they say about the bodies? Well, and are they cryonically frozen? Or like these people weren't like abducted. They're like seen in a government context. Like these bodies are being stored. Yeah. Or during a crash retrieval. What always comes up is the gray aliens. It's like the wraparound eyes, almond shaped heads, large black eyes, gray, tan, brownish skin. That's the common trope. Specifically in an egg. in a manned egg that somebody was present for a retrieval for.

2:36:16So what about not on a retrieval? What about these bodies stored in military facilities? Yeah, a place out in California. Oh. An unnamed place, a place that doesn't have its own designation. I don't even know who the heck runs it. Whoa. Like one of those in-plane site things and like, you know, corporate. Can you say where? I'm not sure exactly where SoCal. Okay. SoCal region, not Antelope Valley, but Antelope Valley probably deals with tech more, but, um, and you think they're, and do you feel confident in this whistleblower or not whistleblower, this person who's contacted you? Yeah. I, yeah.

2:36:54That's the person I would like stake my entire rep on. Can you say anything high level about them or? They don't, they don't want to be talked about. Okay. And I gotta, I like, I gotta respect that. Sure. Sure. Did you get in touch with them or did they get in touch with you? This person's a personal hero to me and I just got to, if they don't want to be talked about, I must respect. Well, it's a good sign that you're not, you know, I think you have to be skeptical if somebody inbound hits you up more than if you reach out to them. Oh, yeah. 95 % of the people I speak to, I have sought them out.

2:37:24That person who I talked to you about that was on a crash retrieval team or claimed they have, I spent a year trying to track them down. Wow. I spent and they do not want to be contacted this. It takes months and months to form a relationship with these people. I know it's a good time when I contact them and I just I'm usually really upfront with people and they just say, how did you get my name? Who are you? And stop talking to me. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, it's like they're not denying the claims, you know, like they're clearly like they know they're they were involved in some crazy shit.

2:37:56A lot of them are smart. And at first we'll say like, I have no knowledge or like what you would expect to find on the terms and conditions on like an agreement for an Apple product. I have no knowledge of extraterrestrials. I have not seen bodies, nor have I seen craft. I have not been to military installations or disclosed unauthorized disclosures. Yeah. This is kind of a crazy question. And maybe I'm maybe this is self-defeating for me, but I feel like it's an important question to ask because it's hard for me to comment on my own stuff. I'm probably biased somewhat. And, you know, I want to respect anybody that comes on the show.

2:38:33Who do you think is the least believable person that's come on my show? Oh, that's a good question. Because I can ask you can gas me up all day, but I want you I want you to I want you to straw man. Let's chew through that, actually, because the top three best would be Grush, Malmgren and Dan Sherman. Those are the three best. Yeah, yeah, yeah. OK, I'm trying to think. Who would be the least? I'm just trying to think who like who has the most grand claims without.

2:39:07I'm because I'm trying to parse things into like if they if they have testimony. I mean, one of them that that's just kind of hard to even buy into just because he's he's so matter of fact is Charles Hall. Yeah. But that's also partly because he's it can be difficult to listen to like the droning on. Sure. Yeah. That stuff for hours. Gosh, you weren't there, but. Top four Beatrice as well is up there. OK. Beatrice, because, you know, hers is so scientifically backed. Yeah. Yeah. So top four as far as her testimony. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Excellent. Yeah, she's amazing. Autumn, gosh, I'm trying to think who else.

2:39:47Of course, I'm also super partial to Randy, just because I know Randy as a human and I like him very much. Yep. I'm very partial to Graham Hancock just because I like his work outside of the space. Yeah, I love Graham. A classic, it's not an interview, the T. Townsend Brown. Oh, yeah. It's a classic. That's like, I'm like, I'm as high conviction as anything on that stuff. I love that. Let me see. uh kirk oh yeah okay the because he bullied you steven greer i completely that's a great episode it's interesting but he bullied you but so the weird thing with anybody there are very few people i think you're making this point kind of who are like fully full of shit because even greer has all sorts of personality issues you know and like he's so much ego and like would i want to be stuck in an elevator with that guy?

2:40:37No, I wouldn't. But you can't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Like, he's sitting on a lot of interesting information, anecdotes. Like, he was, before you, a lot of these guys kind of, you know, sitting in the black in a lot of these programs didn't have anywhere to go, and they went to him. Yeah, I look at Greer almost like an Anakin Skywalker type character. Yeah. He gave himself to the dark side by believing in his own theories instead of analyzing witness testimony. to then burn so many people and expose so many people and hurt so many people. What he started off with, I think, was incredibly noble intentions and true.

2:41:17Yeah, I mean, that's a good point. Everyone's testimony, I got to kind of look at and be interested. I think the lowest credibility side of firsthand witness encounters right now for me is probably Charles Hall, just because it's hard for me to sit through and parse that story. Yeah, yeah, that was a tough one. I mean, I, I sat through, you know, we, that was even longer than we, than we discussed, but I wanted to make it digestible for the audience. And it was, uh, I was like, this is, this is so like, he would just go on. I mean, at one point he goes, and I hurt my knee. And then they, the tall whites flew me from area 51 to area 52 and then area 53.

2:41:54And I was like, well, you got hurt. Your knee got hurt. And it was used to like, like, like a hell of vacuate you out of like the range you were at. After I thought I'd broken my kneecap and then it healed up, there was the next morning when they came down to get me and take me up to their base at area 53 to see if I needed a surgery on my knee. And was it the tall whites? Yeah. And when I got up there, the American generals were there and medical people were up there, too. And I didn't. I just bruised it. Maybe it's similar to like a Jason Sands type story where there's an initial exposure that's interesting that there's some something there.

2:42:36And then they just continue to expand on it to where the story kind of gets out of control. I don't think you can easily. I mean, because there are also people online saying like he faked he was not in the Air Force. Right. BS. He was in the Air Force. And I have the right. You have his DD-214. You have certificates and stuff like he was definitely in the Air Force. And so and I think he was a weather observer and I think he was based at Area 51. Yeah. And then I think he was. And then beyond that, yeah, it's like hard for me to believe he was like hanging out with these beings for as long. But I mean, there's clearly he's very neurodivergent, you know, clearly.

2:43:08So it's tough. It's tough. You know, my point being. I would agree with you on that, but it's also pretty hard to definitively write him off also. It's like, you know, and there are people online trying to do that. And I'm like, you can't do that either. You have to contend with the, you know, it's just they seem a little beyond belief to me. Yeah. What's frustrating is if he had encounters with beans on Area 51 and that was the extent of it. Right. Maybe something like Corso said in his manuscript where he encountered a trapped bean who said, hey, lower the radar so we can get out of here. That'd be more believable.

2:43:46But when I know the beans, I hung out with them. They flew me around. That's when it starts to get up. He had names for all of them. The teacher and the range for Harry. Like, who knows? Maybe he was exposed to them and just kind of got carried away. Well, what I, you mentioned Sherman as one of the top ones. Sherman, to me, couldn't have been more of a, you know, kind of opposite vibe of Charles Hall. Charles Hall was, like, too detailed. Like, he had an answer for everything. Yeah. I asked him random stuff about, you know, from physics to, like, their communication patterns, their dialect. like everything, the books they read, they read books, apparently read like all these things.

2:44:24But they weren't interested in the books on Einstein because they clearly had better, you know, they had better physics or whatever. It was like crazy stuff like that. Like he had an answer for everything. Sherman, she, to me, pattern matched so much to somebody telling the truth because I would tell him like open source stuff that would support his testimony. you know i'd be like uh you know this guy no erotic actually foyed uh you know this independent researcher foy had project preserve destiny and the foyer was sent to the air force and the air force forwarded it to the nsa yeah basically which if we can confirm his name wasn't mentioned like that's kind of a smoking gun that this program existed under the purview of the nsa so and he goes oh yeah cool he goes oh you did that great like he didn't give a f you didn't care at all.

2:45:13And it was to me, I'm like, oh, this guy's so comfortable in his own. Like, he knows what happened to him. He's not trying to signal anything. He's the opposite of a Greer who's constant. There's so much bluster. He doesn't have an answer for everything. Doesn't have an answer for everything. Yeah. What you and you and I have a mutual friend who has had decades of experience in electronics intelligence. You know, he sat both of us down separately and we talked both. We had both. We, you know, we didn't know we had both spoken to him yesterday. But and I think we can say his name because he's on Twitter supporting oh okay okay Dan Howe yes yes I talked to him at Seoul and he you know we were talking about Project Preserve Destiny and he's he he sat me down and talked to me for a very long time about how Dan Sherman's discussion of various Elant systems and knowledge of Elant systems and process of Elant electronic intelligence is just beautifully on the money yeah there you go and like just a beyond reasonable casual guy and would admit, would say, you know, I think the details might be fuzzy here and I might have gotten that a little bit wrong or whatever.

2:46:12And it's like, you try remembering something, you know, moment by moment that happened to you 30 plus years ago. Good luck. That's like Waygant in 97. If he doesn't remember something, I say, hey, do you remember the smell? I don't remember. He doesn't remember. And Bob Lazar saying that my details get a little fuzzy here. If they don't, then you're lying. That's a worse signal. It's just like Sherman showed such restraint to even say like, I don't really know what these beans I was getting downloads from looked like. Yes. Yeah, totally. And then what's wild is the base he was at, he took a photo of it and it's in above black.

2:46:46And I, you know, we, we reversed me and my researcher reverse image searched it and we figured out it was San Vito de Normandy. And, uh, and, uh, you know, that that's in, in Southern Italy and we called it out and he goes, yeah, that was the base. And so like you write the book expecting for people not to be able to find it because you don't really have the internet, you know, in popular use back then at least and you know now we did so everything keeps seeming to check and then the final thing i'll say about that one is i you know and i hate doing this but a guy who is doesn't want to go public also but very high up and like extremely credible position who i i wish i could i could say who it is you can take it with as much of a grain of salt as you want yeah you can you can not care that i'm saying this whatever um but he corroborated a bunch of details around the Sherman story as well.

2:47:36So I really, you know, hold that in high esteem. It's interesting that people have likely been interfacing with these non-human intelligence through telepathic downloads. That's really crazy, but it's really interesting. And it holds a lot of water. A strange world we live in. Strange world. And, you know, do you know who Puharich is? Andre Puharich? Early architect of MKUltra, he had these sort of machines that I think were kind of similar to what Dan Sherman was using, where you would hum a tone in your mind, match that to the tone you're hearing in these headphones, and that would get you into this locked in telepathic state.

2:48:15And he, everybody had this camp in upstate New York, and all these quote unquote space kids would go up there and channel what he called the nine, these alien beings. And he was a contractor for the CIA. Wow. And that work definitely became classified and went somewhere. And I think it probably went into Project Preserve Destiny. Wow. Yeah. So let me ask you this in kind of a similar vein. Right now, because Chris Ramsey asked me a similar question. I thought it was a great one. Right now, if you were in charge of assembling five witnesses for the next congressional hearing to make it the best one that's ever happened, to deliver their testimony, it could be five minutes, it could be three hours.

2:48:54What five people would you choose? Could they be just anybody? Like, yeah, anybody? Yeah, let's go non-hostile witnesses. So you can be like, Bobby Ray Anman. Okay, yeah, right. That's a separate question. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The separate question is top five people you deliver a fat interrogatory tour to to basically extract their testimony. So they have good intentions. Yes. Okay. And could they say anything in the actual testimony? Because like I would, you know, I'd pick somebody like Grush, but like, you know, it's tough because like half the things were like, he's like, you know, let's go to a skiff right now.

2:49:30And like, I'll tell you. Which, by the way, when people say Grush has no first stand experience, go back to look in what Moskowitz asked David Grush when Moskowitz said, do you have any exposure to overhead collection platforms depicting UFOs? Grush said, kind of danced around the topic. And then Moskowitz said, have you ever seen any overhead collection of UFO crashes? And he said, I would have to answer that in a close. There you go. So, yeah, let's do full open disclosures. So they can say whatever. Okay. I mean, that's funny because my mind goes to some of the people who I think don't have the best intentions but know so much clearly due to their background.

2:50:05I think people like, you know, I think Grush has like kind of autistic attention to detail, you know, hundreds of pages that he gave to the ICIG, you know, Thomas Monheim and like has just like programs, names, dates, like, you know, where the bodies are buried. So I'd say him. He could probably go through right now. Yeah. He could probably deliver the exact specific sectionals and years from which program names were first dreamt up. Definitely. If you're first created, he'd be able to name everything off the top of his head. I think, you know, I think Hal Puthoff would be great. I think he's got way more knowledge than maybe meets the eye.

2:50:44I mean, like, it's like, you know, if he's saying definitively the 12 to 15 crafts, you know, on Joe Rogan, it's like, where are you getting that information? Yeah. And where as well, just 12 to 15. I reckon the 12 to 15 were just the ones he was exposed to. Totally. And he seems to pop up. Everywhere you look when it comes to like UFO science. And sci stuff. And sci stuff, which seems to be weirdly interrelated with all this. Remember what Grush said on JRE? You know, they start talking about remote viewing stuff. And David Grush says, well, what if the CIA started looking into this as a sci stuff as a possible solution to serve as a key to unlock some stuff we have sitting around in a warehouse?

2:51:24I think that's one of the most poignant things he's ever said that nobody's ever really kind of paid attention to. Interesting. So wait, so what would this, this would be, they were talking about Stargate remote viewing, he and Joe and, uh, Grosh proposes the question that maybe these, these side programs were taken on by the agency and other intelligence communities as a way to get it, gain a better understanding over the craft technical vehicles we have stored in our warehouses. I mean, that makes total sense. We'll also look at put offs, you know, he's the founding architect of Stargate, all the psychic spy stuff.

2:51:56And then he moves on to like the rest of his career seems really dedicated to the UFO question. So they're, So that has to be connected somehow. And you hear a lot of rumors that they're somehow connected. And look, this is really weird, but like, okay, if the Psy stuff is real, which I think both of us think it is, remote viewing is a real modality. Then what is happening in reality itself? Like what is like the Archimedes lever of conflict? It's like psychic conflict, which is really weird, right? And the lever that, yeah, the system that allows remote viewing to work and operate it. It breaks my brain because I'm such a logistic person to think about psi principles and stuff.

2:52:42It's such a huge quandary to me. Have you met anybody that discusses timeline management or the ability to see different timelines? Obviously, Bob Lazar, you know, was briefed on Project Looking Glass. Yeah. Which is like the manipulation of timelines. You have Tim Taylor, who, you know, is written about by Diana Pasolka and kind of enters her life. He is part of this, quote unquote, secret space program. But he kind of thinks of himself as like a, you know, adjustment bureau, timeline management person. So there's been a, you know, I think I've talked about it before, a testimony I'm not really sure what to do with because I don't I really don't know how to act on it.

2:53:22And again, this can be taken as conjecture because it's just a claim. But it's somebody who claimed whilst they were in naval intelligence, they were part of a program that used like a sphere that was similar to Randy Anderson as a basically a remote viewing tool. but that this sphere was basically used to, I guess, like coagulate time onto the Planck scale, looking at time as frames of Planck scale and combined with like the many worlds interpretation of quantum physics to like view parallel timelines. Again, I don't know what to do with it. It's really complex. Do you know what to do with it?

2:53:54Send it to me. I'll send it to you because it's very interesting. It's very interesting. But again, I don't know the validity to it. I've not even begin begun to start to vet that individual because it's just a really interesting claim that i i'm just not sure what to whoa i'll send that i'll try and get that guy dude i don't know i would be so fascinated i mean matthew brown also talked about some ai timeline management system that the white house has or whatever then that would that would give some pretty definitive examples about how the universe works right because if you have an ai that can predict future events, we have a pretty deterministic universe, right?

2:54:32Either deterministic or you can kind of move between branches of the multiverse or something. And, you know, who knows? You know, actually, Hugh Everett, who created the many worlds theories, you know, Everett many worlds, he went on to work for the Pentagon in nuclear game theory. Really? Yeah. Whoa. Yeah. So maybe there's some sort of weird connection there where, I mean, this is a really trippy, weird territory but like i think the doe like so the ufos and nukes book talks about like all these guys seeing sort of saucers discs you know tic tacs orbs that seem to like often interfere with nukes the doe itself often feels like the center of a lot of people having spiritual experiences and so i i wonder if you know if you were to actually like say like the apocalypse isn't some fictional thing like maybe like multiverse branching is happening all the time and like there's pruning occurring and there's certain apocalypses that happen like in the three body problem and then some survive or whatever like the doe would be like the center of that stuff right and so like maybe they're like the most entangled with this like spiritual world and explains a lot of the ufos and nuke stuff and if you actually talk to robert hastings i had this deep conversation with him and I was like, how many of these guys have had close encounters of the third kind where they see beings and they themselves have been abducted, not just they're on the base, they've seen stuff or whatever.

2:56:03And he goes, uh, like seven or eight out of the 167. And I go, did you pull, did you pull them formally on this? They go, he goes, no, those are just the people who've like come out saying that. So in my mind, I'm like, there's probably like half of them or more. And he himself has had experiences as has, um, you know, know bob jacobs you know a lot of these guys have had mario woods i found out had childhood experience so it's like the people who end up working in these programs are like closer to this like weird celestial realm yeah yeah like i know guys who have worked in the program who are have now like become far more spiritual because of their time in the programs and it's really it's really weird like guys who are interested in diana pasolka's work and like religious questionings and religious frameworks because of their time in the program.

2:56:53Yeah. It's like what metaphysical concepts or spiritual concepts are these people either directly or incidentally exposed to while these programs. And then you have Tim Taylor telling Diana Pasolka, here's the hierarchy of being. And I think it's like alien or non-human intelligence, you know, or aliens or whatever, you know, human hybrids with the beings. Then it's like, you know, intel agencies or whatever. And it's like on down from there. And like, I'm like, how do you have, is this, do you think he's legit? Do you think Tim Taylor's legit? He's this NASA mission controller that seems to also pop up everywhere in this issue.

2:57:28Also seems to like know all the experiencers, like he knows Bledsoe. He knew Charles Hall. Yeah. You probably have better knowledge on this than I because you've spoken to the man, but it's. I wish I did. I wish I got more out of it. He seems to be acting on the behalf of a faction. Yeah. Hanging out and getting close with various people. What his deal is, I don't know. The thing that's most intriguing to me are the statements that he walks around with credentials from numerous intelligence agencies and organizations like NRO access, various IC agency access. That's very strange to me. We can just kind of stroll in wherever he wants.

2:58:03Yeah, it's strange. And it's, I don't like like naming too many, too many names, but like, you know, especially if they're not like public figures generally. But I think Bledsoe doxed him. And then Chris Ramsey kind of said it best with Tim Taylor, where he's like, if you want us not to mention you, like stop doing spooky shit. Like he just shows like he enters the lives of all of these experiences. And gets really close with them. Like, isn't there photos of Tim Taylor at like football games of Chris Bledsoe's children or something like that? Like he's really involved in their lives. Yeah. Yeah.

2:58:39Yeah. I don't know. So would Tim Taylor be the third one on your. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, well, again, the problem is the intersection between like have some incentive to like not say everything and like what they know is like extremely high. so like if it's like the truth serum test yeah i gotta do tim taylor for sure like this platform full unlimited disclosures of people who have expressed interest in in some disclosure and they get the old i mean another a guy on the good side i think or at least good side at the end of his life was harold malmgren and i think he knew a lot more and it this was so sad to me because i thought we had multiple days of interviews that we could have lined up we did our first interview his health started to go downhill right after that.

2:59:23And so we were going to do like four hours, like three days in a row or something like that. And, and then he said things to me that like, I don't think anybody thought that like whoever the majestic 12 or group is like had anything to do with him. I mean, it would kind of make sense that Bissell would be like a part of that or something, but he then says on the phone to me and I didn't even catch this when he said it on the phone to me. Cause he's voices muffled and he's in the hospital on his, deathbed but he goes that was when the cia started tracking me they put my name in some file and he goes them and the majestic and then we had we dubbed the whole thing because he had throat cancer 10 years before and then i see it in the dub i'm like oh like after he passed away It was Friday.

3:00:10I came to the office. So I said, why am I here? I asked for it.

3:00:23And I said, well, who had a record? I said, the day that you met. The president of MIT. That day, your name went in all the important books of talent that CIA keeps. That who keeps? CIA. Wow.

3:01:03it's like what did he know you know with how quickly his health declined it almost felt like he was willing to kind of let go after he was able to disclose some of that information you know you hear a lot of like family members of elderly loved ones who are kind of holding on to say goodbye to their loved ones or, you know, get a final word. And it seemed like him being able to speak about these disclosures with his daughter present, with his family present, it seemed like right after that, his health declined. I don't, maybe he was, that's just been something he was holding onto for so long. I think so.

3:01:35I think he was bottling it up and he really, I think he felt a little bad about some, maybe like tangential touch points he had had with the program. And I think he just wanted to see more of this stuff out. I wish more legacy people had consciences like that. I know. I wish that too. And then I also, I understand if your family's being threatened, if you're taking some anthrax booster and for all you know, it's like - Or you're threatened with inappropriate stuff on your computer to get your life ruined. Who wants to deal with that? Heck no, yeah. No. Yeah, but I do wish more people can. And honestly, you're like my biggest hope as far as like more stuff coming out because I feel like you're in touch.

3:02:16You're as close to the metal as it gets. You know, like if somebody has come out, like often I'll try to make some like beautifully produced thing with them, but I'm not really like you're, you're really like on the front lines trying to get people out over multi-month periods. And that's an impressive, I mean, you're really putting yourself in the line of fire and it's, it's amazing. Well, I'd like to provoke more of a reaction from, from legacy people. Take a step, like take more of a step against me and I'd like to see what happens. I'll put this as a call to action for anybody who's had firsthand legacy exposure.

3:02:49Please contact me at UAPGrow at ProtonMail.com. My wish isn't to get people public, like to make videos about them. If they want to, and I've vetted them properly, sure, we'll do a project together. But my initial thing is to collect their testimony and get it to the right people of people who can perform, do actionable things with that testimony. And what's the goal at that point, if it's not to bring everybody out to the public necessarily, but it's to kind of force? Is it like executive action? Yeah, executive administrative action. I think there can be an impetus where, you know, things like the administration, they have a preponderance of evidence and whistleblowers to where they need to take action and bring these programs under congressional oversight.

3:03:33And that is when a disclosure will occur. And I think that is when a disclosure of a non-human intelligence and active programs to reverse engineer and exploit materials. But, hey, we're doing this, but the technologies are still held up in the black budget. That's fine. if the U.S. receives a disclosure that non-human intelligence is here it's been interacting with humanity for a long time like Carl Nell says we actively have crafts and we're actively figuring out how to work various systems with them but we're not going to tell you exactly what we're doing with them because that's a national security concern that is a fine medium for the vast majority of the American public like there doesn't and I wouldn't even you don't need to it's the same thing with kind of what most people talk about you don't need to disclose the specifics behind the technology because you don't need bad faith actors creating a flux liner and ramming it into New York and creating it and turning New York into a wasteland.

3:04:27For sure. But I would say, I don't know, I think there are trade secrets, for example, with nuclear weapons, but nuclear physics is like 99 % disclosed. Physics about internal mass reduction and space-time bubbles and inertial dampening and stuff like that that absolutely should be given to humanity for sure yes like say if you figured out that this like you know the quantum gravity stuff is bs and actually gravity is is not what we think it is because gravity has been this big question in physics for you know decades huge for like the world for like our ability to like you know kind of manipulate matter and like make the world a better place yeah and like build you know engineering and you know medical devices and medicine and, you know, not be stuck on these Boeing 747s, 737s where the doors fly off, you know, like it's crazy.

3:05:20So. And I didn't mean to interrupt. No, no, no. I was going, I was ranting. I was just going to say, and if, yeah, there's zero point energy systems that have been and could be exploited somehow, that is a, an absolute humanitarian crime to keep from people. It is. I mean, do you think we do have that? Cause that seems to be the implication of a lot of these, you know, Dylan Borland literally said, you know, the most classified thing, most sensitive thing is not the craft. It's the energy system. And didn't Jake Barber say with Ross Coltheart, he knew about like zero point energy systems at the very end of the interview or like just insane energy systems.

3:05:53I'm almost, almost positive he did. Wow. I don't know. Maybe we talked about anti-gravity being him. So. Yeah. And maybe anti-gravitic systems. It's, I mean, I think it's likely again, I have very poor understanding of physics or some of this stuff. I just, I like the programs. See, I, yeah, I think my base case is they have some weird effects that they know how to get kind of in little experimental cases. I think the idea that there's a box that could like power the earth in a sustainable way and it's like hidden in some like DOE national lab or, you know, one of these, you know, containers that you've mentioned.

3:06:25I think that's ridiculous. I don't think that's true. If it is true, it is a travesty. And like, you know, the lost century by Stephen Greer is like the most important documentary ever. But I just I have trouble believing that I think it's somewhere in the middle where you have these like physics effects that they've proven like the Byfield Brown effect. Yeah. For example, I covered where like I'm pretty high confidence that there's a there there. And you have Carl Nell who ran a two billion dollar P &L, you know, CTO of like basically a Northrop subsidiary saying, you know, watch Jesse's video on Thomas Townsend Brown.

3:07:03Jesse's done a number of podcasts looking into Townsend Brown and some other very interesting, like, heretical technologies. So I'd invite people, an unsolicited plug, to check out some of Jesse's podcasts. You have the lead electrostatics guy at NASA, Charles Bueller. Oh, yeah. Leaving NASA and starting his own company, Exodus Space, based on propellantless propulsion, which he attributes to Thomas Townsend Brown. He's had access to a vacuum chamber for 20 years and, like, says he's replicated this, like, you know, a ton of time. So you have so much evidence to me that that is real. And then even that it's like, are you hiding?

3:07:40You know, I don't I don't even the line between that and then the Mark McCandlish like alien reproduction vehicles like we have workable craft that uses, you know, anti gravity. I don't know. I don't know. I think that at least copycat vehicles and the subject of alien reproduction vehicles, I think that is definitely a thing. People often ask the question, if alien reproduction vehicles exist, why is the F-16 engaging with enemy assets and not a TR-3B? Well, I think a strong argument can be made that with alien reproduction vehicles, there's probably a very select number and the technology is probably so sensitive and probably not adapted perfectly.

3:08:20Kind of what you're talking about, copying certain aspects and getting weird physics effect that these sorts of craft and these sorts of platforms are relegated only to the blackest of programs for ISR purposes. You know, I mentioned earlier, like, the founding of that, and I just, I think the NRO is so important to this whole conversation of UFO legacy programs. The NRO was founded to get American intelligence in denied airspaces because we knew that nuclear war with the Soviets would lead to mutually assured destruction. So there was a huge advantage in defensive reconnaissance to find out where Soviet radar, Soviet nuclear sites and perform ISR of adversaries in denied airspaces grew exponentially in importance.

3:09:00So, I mean, if you have a TR-3B that can travel to Russia instantaneously and then render itself invisible on any sort of detection system, whether it's radar, whether it's human eyes, and to gather intelligence from 100 feet away from a Russian ICBM silo, that is invaluable. yeah seems like it and i think the b2 stealth bomber was like the last classified vehicle that was then declassified so or am i wrong about that b21 raider or was the raider ever even like inherently class i don't think it was class i think we all know about the b21 raider and that's like an official thing so maybe i'm wrong no i think you might be right because there was the sr-71 u2 a12 ox cart yep uh and now of course f-117 was classified for a little bit all that tona potest range yep yep and that that crashed in bakersfield in 1986 or something and then people started but i think the b2 is the last like classified then declassified so we've got to have stuff after that like come on it's not just like f-22s f-35s you know we've got to have like the strongest use case are triangles yeah i mean i i know numerous people who have seen triangles on the launch pads at groom lake or you know roger castle 150 feet away from a giant rotating triangle whose characteristics are almost exactly similar to to tr3b that the triangle story and that's a great thing you broke with castle like that that story comes up time and time again there even as like ancillary parts of other stories like randy anderson who you broke as well.

3:10:36Like with the Area 51, he claimed he saw triangles taking off from Area 51. Yeah, electromagnetic triangles stored at, yeah, DOE-owned lands across the Nevada test and training range. Yeah, Dylan Borland triangle, the Belgian wave were triangles. And I wonder if that, you know, had something to do with, you know, maybe that was actually just terrestrial tech, like, you know, American technology. I mean, Edgar Fouché gets a ton of flack for not producing claims for his testimony. And like, I get it. What's he going to do? Wheel a TR-3B out? But I still think his testimony has so much incredible juice to it and aspects and things that I think are inherently true.

3:11:12For example, back in 1998, Edgar Fouché was talking about TR-3B. First, actually, operational models of TR-3B started to kind of fly around in the 90s from the 70s until onward. It was prototype models. The pilots forum are out of the Navy test pilot school out at Pax River and the AFFTC out of the Edwards 412 test wing, which is something that I would come to believe as inherently correct with the testimony of Ed, the lieutenant colonel at the 412. So the Fouché TR-3B is mind-bogglingly interesting. Additionally, he says that the propulsion system was reverse engineered out of Sandia and Lawrence Livermore National Lab.

3:11:47In my framework of UFO legacy programs with FFRDCs, this would make complete sense that high trust government-owned contractor operated where the technology is still proprietary government property, like a reverse engineering propulsion system for internal mass reduction would be kept within the FFRDC, while contractors like Northrop Grumman, Lockheed Martin, Teledyne Ryan would be used as compartmentalized contractors on like the skin of the craft, the construction, all that stuff. Do we know that Edgar Foucher worked at Area 51? Yes. So we have records of that. Yes. And then anything else that kind of backs up the veracity of his claims?

3:12:23I'm particularly fond of his mention of the men in black with TREAT, the tactical reconnaissance engineering assessment team and how that kind of ties into weird things about like uh the licked and shine crown prince hans adams the second talking about uh albert stubblebine and his little treat project and stuff like that wait what is this there's a there's an old i gotta find it because this was this was like a a hans adams to steven career i think email in the nineties, or maybe it was reversed, but where, uh, Adams, I have it in my, I think it's my TR3B video on, on triangles, but Hans Adams talking about like a treat existing under Albert Stubblebein, who of course was head of U S army INSCOM and was obsessed with this is psychic spy stuff.

3:13:08And also, uh, was tasked with the, uh, intelligence support activity, ISA, which is now a JSOC unit. What did he mean when he said treat? Like T-R-E-A-T, like a men in black type thing. My brain is fuzzy on the exact context around Hans Adam saying Stubblebine and his treat organization. So I have to reference my video for the exact specifics. But that's an interesting thing. Fouché was at Area 51. I'm trying to think what else. I mean, the rotating, the spinning mercury was also mentioned in Deglaka. Yeah. You know, the Kammler-Stab context where you had rotating spinning mercury, according to this Polish journalist, Igor Witkowski.

3:13:53And you had Ernest Grawitz and, you know, this kind of head of SS medical stuff under Joseph Mengele. And or maybe he was actually Mengele report might have reported to him. I don't know. Might be right. And then, who else? Oh, Walter Gerlach, this guy studying anti-gravity in the German context at a nearby university, was also working on D-Glaka. And then they had spinning mercury as well. And then the Vimanas, they're spinning mercury there. So maybe this is the latest instantiation is the TR3B spinning mercury. Because Fouché was adamant that the TR-3B is not anti-gravity. It's internal mass reduction.

3:14:33It's to reduce the weight, the mass of the TR-3B by, I think, 89%. And then various propulsion systems propel it and can indefinitely loiter, go in low Earth orbit. it. He said that the program was spearheaded by NRO, CIA, and NSA, which of course, to me, that fully checks out. I'm trying to think what else, because his 1998 International UFO Conference or Congress, I can't remember what the acronym stands for, that 1998 presentation is fantastic because Fouché delivers his disclosures as well as the amalgamation of his five close friends and sources disclosures on TR3B. And Fouché himself stated he had seen the craft twice, once in Edwards Air Force Base and once somewhere else I can't quite remember.

3:15:19But if I had to bet on one derivative system that we have, it would be the triangles. So confident in the triangles. Shows up everywhere, really does. What do you think of, maybe we can wrap up with this crazy story of Dan Berish. Oh, gosh. Because I find him so fascinating. So this is a story after Bob Lazar, but at S4 Area 51. And there's these crafts and these beings. Who is he and what did he experience? So he's an alleged, what, microbiologist out at S4 who interfaced with the J-Rod, a recovered living extraterrestrial entity that was housed at seven, six layers under Area 51 S4, under all the weird craft storage and Project Looking Glass and all that weird stuff.

3:16:03and that there was basically a containment sphere where he would go interface with this bean and extract its blood for tissue sampling. And he gave like a super long documentary or interview talking about the exact biological systems of this creature's blood. It's either the greatest LARP of all time or maybe there's something to it or maybe, I don't know, it's either the greatest LARP of all time or there's something to it. Have you seen, I think his name's Brian Jackson. Yes, yeah, yeah. This UFO researcher and he gives a presentation on Dan Barish. There's some weird stories around Dan Barish where I think his, like, godfather was Mike McConnell, who was— Mike McConnell?

3:16:40Yeah. He was director of the NSA. And, like, there's something around Mike McConnell's son dying in, like, a freak accident. And I don't know if Brian Jackson's, you know, sure about this or what, but he thinks that it's almost like Mike McConnell takes in Dan Barish as, like, this, like, you know, like, godson, like, really important person to him. and puts places him on all these special projects and almost views him like a son, like sees him as having like soul swapped or something with his son or something. Something's very strange. That's so bizarre because Admiral Mike McConnell is somebody I would say with almost like as high secondhand certainty as you could have was involved in the programs.

3:17:20This is where things get really weird because John Lear is on record saying in an interview, Like I helped, you know, get Bob Lazar a job at S4 Area 51 because this was this all part of this limited disclosure plan because we knew that we could, you know, Bob Lazar was discreditable. We could say that he owned a brothel and that he faked his educational credentials and all this stuff. And he said that he was asked to do this at the behest of a Majestic 12 member named Mike McClellan. Yeah. But I wonder if it's Mike McConnell. It could have been Mike McConnell. Because there's the S4 Area 51 connection with Dan Barish.

3:18:00Yeah. Which, you know, even outside of Bob Lazar and Dan Barish, I'm like fully convinced that S4 is a real place. Not on Tonopah, but S4 right by Pooce Lake. I am too. Yeah. Dan Barish, his story is so interesting. I'm not sure what to make of it. Brian Jackson's doing great work on Barish. The Night Shift channel with Clint and Xander Jones, they're super into Dan Barish. And then when I was hanging out with Chris Ramsey, he showed me the most bizarre videos of Dan Barish and his wife, like vlogs of the most weird, possibly agency coded, like. things of all time where his wife will show an orange crush soda and almost give what seems like agency keywords or something.

3:18:53Implying maybe Dan Brish and his wife are absolutely bonkers, or maybe she's his handler. I don't know. The story is so bizarre. And there's a lot to chew through. That's why I'm glad people are doing good work and looking through his story, because there's actually quite a bit to chew through. And of course, J-Rod, the story doesn't just stop there with Dan Barish, but also goes back to Bill U-House, who claimed at Area 51 auxiliary sites, there was basically a ARV or extraterrestrial vehicle simulator built off the Kingman crash. And that recovered biologic called J-Rod was stored at one of the auxiliary facilities as well.

3:19:31Oh, Bill U-House said that before Dan Barish. I don't know if it was before or after, because I think the primary Bill U-House interview before he died was was uh mid-2000s and dan barish's interview was like 2003 2004 right i think that's right yeah so you know i without knowing those dates for certain bill you house could have just ripped off dan barish but i i'm not 100 sure on whose disclosures came first well that's interesting i mean the fact that they're backing each other up probably i mean who knows if it's uncorrelated but with all this s4 stuff this is why we need project gravitar Yeah, exactly.

3:20:03This is why Luigi has to go through. Get your movie done, man. Yeah, you and I both have a lot of faith in Luigi. Oh, yeah. The project is incredible. I talked about how there are likely underground sites, SAPF, STIF, subterranean facilities or DUMBs, built using disguised foliage, disguised mountains, maybe even projections. And Luigi painstakingly tries to show how like foliage is rearranged around S4 sites and stuff like that to build a very compelling case of exactly where S4 is. And that's another thing where like Area 51 was barely, probably not ever really talked about before Balbazar. Then S4 definitely wasn't talked about.

3:20:48I think there's some argument that Area 51 was mentioned in some magazine or something, obscure magazine. Yeah. Balbazar probably didn't have access to that. But I think, you know, it's clear that he was there. But then the fact that, you know, if we're going to get any corroboration on S4 from that movie, that's a big deal. Right. And people like some people like to try and say that Bob Lazar ripped off the S4 name off of Tonopatest Range because just east of Tonopatest Range is a is an outdoor site called S4 that Janet Airlines. So Janet Airlines, the famous red striped airline, flies to Area 51, Area 6, which is by the Yucca Mountain Flat, which has a Lockheed Martin-owned aerial operations facility that does work for DITRA, for DARPA, for the NRO, the NGA, which is really weird.

3:21:36Almost nobody knows about this Area 6. Again, it's on the Yucca Flat, and it has a Lockheed Martin aerial operations facility. It's super, super, super kind of like held lock and key. And then Janet also flies to Tonopah Test Range. And Janet also drops employees off Tonopah Test Range to the S4 site there. And apparently, according to Lazy G Ranch, which is a great blog that actually tracks like FFA flight radar and stuff of Janet Airlines and so forth, employees on the S4 area of Tonopah Test Range have to be taken there directly from Janet and cannot drive on site like other employees at Tonopah can.

3:22:10That's a bit strange, isn't it? And another where we first hear about Janet Airlines, Bob Lazar. Yeah. Because Janet Airlines, that's not a disputable thing. Janet Airlines is a, you can go on YouTube right now and look up Janet Airlines and look at flights. Was that publicly known before Bob Lazar? I don't know. I don't know. Another interesting thing. I would go on the website oldestsearch.com and in quotations do Janet Airlines. Oh, I love that. That's a cool oldestsearch.com. Yeah. To get a resource. To see if there were any early mentions of Janet Airlines. Yeah. Because Lazy G Ranch does a very good kind of breakdown.

3:22:42So all across the Nevada test site, whether it's S4, whether it's Area 6, whether it's Tonopah, whether it's Area 51, the infrastructure is there. The underground infrastructure is there to house Alfred O'Donnell's craft, to house rapid reaction response teams that get in private jets and fly to go take care of retrieval operations, to house Bob Lazar and nine recovered craft. It has the infrastructure to do so. So where do you think things are headed with UFO disclosure? Do you think things are bursting at the seams and we get a lot more kind of spontaneous disclosure? Do you think we get some slow rolled managed thing?

3:23:20Do you think the subject dies out? What do you think? It's not going to die out. I disagree with Carl now quite a bit when he says that his current the current like carefully managed 2017 originating disclosure campaign is kind of dead. maybe that specific limited disclosure campaign, but I disagree with sort of demeaning comments like that. I think as long as you have somebody like Dave Grush in a driver's seat, actively pushing and actively engaged in the topic, things are looking good. I think there's a large, there's been an impetus in public opinion on the topic. More and more people are getting engaged.

3:23:54And even though there may be some questionable characters in films like The Age of Disclosure and maybe some opinions I don't agree with. And, you know, it might be framed a little weird. I do think documentaries like that are going to be great to get the public more in tuned because if people are watching like Marco Rubio, who, you know, UFO heads who are deep in the subject have known he's had an interest in the subject since 2017 and has employed his staff at the SSCI and others to go find more about whistleblowers for him. So that guy's a coward for not staking his political career when he's been well-known into the subject since 2017.

3:24:25Maybe a coward's a strong word. Maybe he just hasn't had an avenue which to affect things. But Marco Rubio has known about the topic. But for the average Joe who might have seen Jeremy Corbell's Area 51, Bob Lazar, and Flying Saucers, who might have seen the phenomenon by James Fox, maybe they saw Unacknowledged by Stephen Greer and just have a passing interest in the subject and they watch Age of Disclosure and they see people like Marco Rubio talk about UFOs, maybe that's going to spark a lot of new interest in it. Yeah, I mean, I think it's going to move the needle on the topic. I think it'll be, you know, if the 2017 New York Times article was like, you know, this big jumping off point or whatever, I think this will be a force multiplier.

3:25:04I think James Fox's new movie Moment of Contact 2 or whatever will be this massive force multiplier. I think the phenomenon itself, that first movie by James Fox, it's just such an amazing survey level overview gateway for so many people. That's what I tell people who are interested. If they're still grappling with the question of like, are UFOs real? I think the phenomenon is a really good place to start. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's fascinating, man. And then what do you think, like, what's your, you know, fast forward to 10 years from now, what do you hope you're doing? I would love nothing more than to be involved with transition of legacy programs into traditional oversight channels.

3:25:49I would love to be on teams that goes and inventories, warehouses, housing craft and biologics and materials and bridging those clandestine programs. Still black budget, still protected by USAP, but back under United States control. I'd like to be involved in helping whistleblowers get basically reparations for maybe their VA disability that's been canned, stuff like that. help. I would like to be in an official capacity helping pry legacy programs from the cold dead hands of people like Dick Cheney and Admiral Bobby Ray Inman and a lot of these old crones of the old guard who are in these old boys club who don't want to relinquish control of legacy programs and bringing that to under control.

3:26:36Do you think like, you know, just going back to like that kind of convoluted org chart or whatever it feels so i'm sure a lot of people watching this are like how is that kept secret do you think maybe it's something like the three body problem where if the tip of the spear of science itself might be managed by like the beings or something that like the the the org structure is somehow managed by them not necessarily i think it's i think it's very i think it's once you spend enough time looking at it it's very rational how this is kept such secret. How many people in the U.S. do you think know about, like know pretty intimately about the UFO?

3:27:17Intimately a small number. I'd say hundreds in the low thousands. Okay. Maybe a thousand. Okay. As far as like defense industrial-based contractors who are exposed to metamaterials who don't really know what they are, but it's UFO stuff, probably a larger number, maybe five to 10 ,000. So I'd say maybe 200. I'm going to lower my initial estimate of like 200 people with a good knowledge of the programs and even less with a historical knowledge. Yep. And - Do you think that those people are our best and brightest minds? Probably not. The best and brightest minds are, the best and brightest minds right now are probably at like, actually probably some of them are.

3:28:00They're probably at MITRE, but also a lot of them are being poached with competitive salaries by like Anderil and stuff like that. But I think that the reason this is kept so secret is, you know, it's a lot more simple than people think. At every single layer of the programs, there are program protection strategies. You already have the U.S. black budget. You already have SAPS caps and USAPS, almost impenetrable. You have no foreign, no foreign national stuff to even safeguard them further. You have carve out contracts with contractors. You have all sorts of stuff outlined by the 1954 Atomic Energy Agreement, special nuclear material, foreign intelligence information, and transclassified foreign nuclear information.

3:28:41You have personnel rotating from their position within ODNI to the MITRE Corporation or CIA, DS &T to the NRO to the AUSTAT. you have program protection agencies you have the darpa city you have the doe oici you have the cia you have the nsa you have directorates under the cia you have the dsnt you can put the gabosh on lockheed martin trying to get rid of materials you have this rotating personnel agency you have bigot lists of special access programs dealing with exotic materials where to keep the the program read on access small you'll have people fulfilling dual roles for example this is something interesting.

3:29:15I have been told you might have a legacy program scientist who has to do a little bit of like accounting or personnel management stuff so they don't have to read in more people. So people might do jobs lower on the ladder rung than them, but never up. You're not going to have an industrial security guy who is also doing like lab technician work. Furthermore, from what I understand there was an initiative in the early 2010s to cut off historical briefings on new on new program incumbents uh this would lead to even folks within ffrdcs like mitre who are who are being told hey you are working on detecting exploiting recovering housing uh recovered craft of non-human origin presumably extraterrestrial and hey the bodies are stored over there in california that they're still not uh briefed into the historical lineage of of the programs and historical members who have worked on past successes, past failures, past facilities.

3:30:13So the compartmentalization is obscene. And like David Grush says, it's all carryover from the Manhattan Project. And at the time, that might have been a good idea because you might have had Truman, you might have had Eisenhower thinking, hey, we're just getting into the Cold War after World War II. What the heck are we supposed to do with these alien spaceships flying around that have crashed due to high-powered radar and we now have their bodies? We need to treat this as nuclear secrets because this could shake the very foundations of this nation. And that spiraled out of control. So it is, it is very, and you know, that's not to mention other program protection strategies like psychological operations.

3:30:47Um, uh, you got Doty, your Dodies of the world who are Paul Benowitz and people and so forth. So I also, I think this is going to sound maybe a little nuts, but I think there's a, there, there, I think there are people in the like pro UFO community on like Twitter and stuff that almost play up the dangers. Like there are dangers. Like I've been fucked with. You've probably been fucked with. I've had weird shit happen to me. But there are people where it's like all they talk about is how dangerous it is to like look into this stuff. And I'm like, are you trying to deter like more people coming out?

3:31:22That seems like their whole beat. They're trying to circulate that as much as possible. It's like they want that to be a meme that's like embedded in your head if you're ever thinking about going public. because there have been deaths here and deaths there. And you know what? There have been some spooky shit has happened. But I don't know. It's like if that's all you're talking about over and over and over again, I sometimes question. I'm like, are you some sort of operative or something? What's your deal? Fear mongering to drive clicks. Yeah. Same thing. I've had weird things. And are you trying to deter the next person from coming out because you're talking about how spooky this whole space is?

3:31:58I don't know. It drives engagement. people saying like, oh, you know, this horrible thing could happen or this scary thing happens. I, you know, I personally, I know you don't, I don't, I, I'm not going to dwell on it as well. You can't. It's, it's, it's, it's useless. You're not going to get any work done. No, you're not. Just talking about the dangers of things. You're just going to be paranoid or whatever. Because, you know, if you got on a podcast or if I got on a podcast and just talked about, I'm investigating UFOs and it's so dangerous. Like, look at me go. I've been threatened. Nobody really wants to hear that.

3:32:27No, it's solipsistic drama. Who cares? No one gives a shit. Yeah. It's like, do you want to get closer to the truth? Like, go for it. Do it, you know, or not. Like, choose another route or something. But no, there's a lot of like, you know, it's like all about me, you know, and it's like, no, it's not. It's not to be about the content. Yeah, this is way bigger than any of us. It's the same thing as like, you know, I may be trying to put together a framework of how I think legacy programs work, but it's still far more complicated than even I could possibly imagine. And I understand the tip of the iceberg of the subject.

3:33:01I don't understand the physics. I don't understand the experience or I don't understand the biologics. It's anybody in this subject who also claims to understand everything is probably is nonsensical. I think so. I think the best analogy is it's a bunch of blind men touching different parts of an elephant. Yeah. And then it makes you think of disclosure in this entirely different context, which is like the government clearly has a bunch of factions who like know a decent amount about the subject or have a lot of data on it and have done some really cool scientific things on this topic and often have tried to like weaponize the stuff, to be honest.

3:33:39but they don't have some like foundational ontological truth that they even have the ability to give you like the you know it's like what if like some rogue vigilante team you know that was interested in electronics intelligence outside of the government was like we're going to create a little beep boop machine you're going to like match the tones in your head you're going to try to connect you know that'd be cool that's what i'm saying it's like but that's you know stuff can happen in any context, government or not. There are things that they're, you know, we don't have particle accelerators that we can just like build overnight, like outside of the government.

3:34:15But like a lot of this stuff is way more like, you know, you just go out and touch the thing or get it, you know, more than you think. It's not this like cabal who's like controlling everything. That's why I, Chris Ramsey had a very poignant tweet recently. It doesn't apply to me because of course I operate in my own lane of legacy programs. That's just what I like where He said, I would rather talk to a farmer about UFOs than a former government person. And I think that's so valuable. We have people like that that are focused more on the human aspect, the experience aspect. Because I'm a lost puppy when it comes to that stuff.

3:34:51Some of the most credible, I think, witnesses are like, you find them. They have no digital footprint. They're living in the middle of nowhere. Like I was in Norway and I was talking to this farmer and he like sees a craft and it's hovering right around his house. And he's just like never gone public. He doesn't. He barely knows English. Like the most simple man you'll ever meet. And I'm like, yeah, I'm like assigning extreme high confidence to that. And then, you know, I think a lot of on the government side, you have a lot of deception and lying and whatever. But then simultaneously to that, like there are a lot of people who just put a minus sign.

3:35:28Like you see AJ from the Y files go on Sean Ryan or you see Chase Hughes or whatever. And it's like these people aren't whistleblowers. They're government propaganda artists. And it's like it is just as lazy to wholesale accept everything these people are saying as it is to put a minus sign on everything they're just because they had to go through just because they had to go through dobser. And because they, from like an American, like tactical, you know, geopolitical advantage perspective, like don't want to like leak, you know, like war secrets to like Russia or China. Or go to jail for espionage.

3:36:03Or go to jail for espionage. Like just because they're not Ed Snowden doesn't mean they're not a whistleblower. Like, you know, and then also like what about the meta question? So you think they're running a psyop, you know, Chase Hughes or Sean Ryan. Like, figure out why they're running the side. Like, ask the like, figure out what's going on. I think the Scylla and Charybdis is like, you know, you accept every you go, you know, poor Paul Benowitz, but like you accept everything, you know, or the other side, which is you don't take anything seriously. You don't take anything at face value. There has to be some like middle path.

3:36:38Yeah. I think it's such a tricky field to navigate because there are self-aggrandires, liars, people acting on behalf of psyops everywhere, and then noble individuals who are just trying to speak truths like David Grush, like Dylan Borland, for example, who I think is another one. So it's just, it's such a complicated topic. I do have – I know people like Ross Goldhart have been a little pessimistic on the subject of disclosure progression. I do have an optimistic view there that we are heading towards a point of hopefully not like CIA-sponsored limited disclosure of no mention of derivative technologies, but like a more complete picture of our reality and what really interesting RDT &E programs within our own U.S.

3:37:28DoD. and IC have been doing for 90 years. I hope maybe, you know, this might seem like a full stream, but I would love one day to be able to write or help write the textbook of the history of the legacy programs. That to me would be, I could think of no more interest. I would love to become a hermit up in the mountains and spend two decades just writing out the history of legacy programs. Well, I can't think of anybody more qualified. So I think - Maybe one day, maybe one day. Far from it though. I have just as much of a, So I just have my own piece of the puzzle. Just promise that if they hit you up and say, hey, you can be our official historian, that that is contingent upon you being able to write stuff that goes public.

3:38:10Oh, yeah. I wouldn't want to be like swallowed into the programs. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. Just because that's kind of what I stand against. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I hope I hope that happens. And I do think, you know, even the people trying to manage the thing or flood the zone or whatever, often their plans end up backfiring because you're just adding interest and eyeballs. Like young people are getting more interested and that has its own momentum that's just going to snowball. And like it's like it's honestly like a classic like intelligence failure is like you try to pull off these triple bank shots and, you know, they end up kind of backfiring.

3:38:50Yeah, a perfect example there is Stephen Greenstreet trying to take down David Grush essentially by saying he struggled with PTSD multiple times after being in theater and experiencing the horrors of war and trying to say that he's not a credible witness because he has suffered from PTSD. And that backfires and that sort of stuff does not work out very well. It's so bad. And, like, guys, I think he had a contract with the DOE or something at some point. Green Street has self-admitted. Or he had a contract with a DOD. I think Department of State, where he said himself he was doing soft propaganda videos for foreign nationals, trying to get them interested in basically U.S.

3:39:32patriotism and nationalism. So, yeah, that's a little weird. And he's constantly trying to provoke a reaction. I think, and on that note of people attacking David Grush, you have a guy, I think his name is Basic Chris on Twitter, something like that. I forget his actual name because I don't think he's worthy of a mention here. But he he he went he went off on David Grush. Well, first, I did an interview with Danny Jones and I talked about PTSD that David Grush suffered from. And I talked about a friend who was like, you know, mortared while he was, you know, in Afghanistan deployed. this guy was pounding the pavement on how David Grush, how, you know, I was lying or making this up and that David Grush just had a friend who had committed suicide or something later.

3:40:18And that was the cause of his PTSD. And then somebody finally interjected and never engaged with this guy, but somebody interjects and they go, um, you know, Hey man, actually this did happen. He talked about two different friends and he goes, Oh, sorry. It's like, dude, I mean, like, do you know how much pain you're causing to somebody who's like, you know, served our country. You think that's cool? Like, that's so whack. It's the same people who said Randy Anderson was a liar because he suffered PTSD from a service in Jordan. And once he got out of the armed services, he, you know, he turned to substances to deal with the pain.

3:40:53Yeah. And he got clean because he's a strong man and he got his life back under him. But because he struggled with addiction issues, because of the horrific things he's faced in life, that means his testimony is untrue. It's the same people who say, oh, Dylan Borland looks nervous. So therefore, he must be like neurodivergent and therefore he's being tricked and preyed upon. Who wouldn't be nervous saying what he's saying? It's it. No, I think it's despicable. And I also I want to flip the frame because a lot of people talk about grifters in the UFO space. There are grifters. I think one we talked about on the show, Stephen Greer.

3:41:28And, you know, he like will do C5 cruises and charge all sorts of money for it. And it's, you know, it's kind of ridiculous. I think those tickets were 9K for the CE5 group. It's totally messed up, preying on people's credulousness, like not cool, right? But the grifters, at least you understand the free market incentives to grift. You're like, oh, you're sensationalizing to make money. Yeah. You're just as bad as, you know, any random used car salesman or somebody with, you know, some online course or whatever. Yeah. Totally skimping you on what they're giving you value wise. Like I get what's going on there.

3:42:01What I don't get is people like the two people we mentioned earlier, there is no free market incentive for them to hate as much as they do on all the people coming out. They're chronically online. It's like they're these weird basement dweller types. Yeah. And no one pays them. So you're not making money. Nobody's even engaging with their content. So like if you're why are you you feel like it feels like you're operationalized. Yeah. Like who is actually paying you? Where are the incentives? You show me the incentive. I'll show you the action. Either that. Yeah. Yeah, it's that or they get it.

3:42:33And probably it could be both for all we know, but also like a dopamine rush from giving a counterpoint to, you know, crap on American heroes. it's it's so weird and like you know if if you're if you're i actually am pro people being skeptical of you know if like a testimony comes out you feel like it's not corroborated great like you know come at it i actually think you know the d dean johnson thing you know if given that he didn't know have the knowledge of like the fact that you know malmgren had the cia background was actually like decently like rigorously like written up although i think it's like totally wrong on all the details, but like their room for skeptics are good.

3:43:14Like I've had Mick West on my show. I think, you know, he's seems like increasingly just like a bad actor with the Beatrice stuff. But like, I do want skeptics, like skeptics are good, but like be a good skeptic. Don't like be, don't go after the person's service when like, that's obviously like just real. The service is real. Go after the testimony and say like, you know, we think that's kind of weak or something. Yeah. Counter points of their argument and testimony. And then let's and then debate those. Yes. But like that, yeah. And then go from there. Yeah, don't go ad hominem. Like, if you're going ad hominem to that extent that consistently without any clear incentive to, like you're not getting paid from a free market perspective and you're spending all day doing this stuff, you have to, like, who's actually paying you?

3:43:57Yeah, and, you know, worst case, they're just trolls who like sowing discourse on social media and infiltrating, like, a UFO Twitter, which obviously there's a lot of different personalities, a lot of people pushing different things and just going obviously completely anti against the grain and crapping on people that many people are interested in their testimony and studying. It's a weird space. It's definitely a weird space. Well, yeah, we should focus on the aspirational feature, which is hopefully we both get to take a ride in the UFO at some point. Yeah, please. The world gets disclosure, and you get to write the official UFO Legacy Program history.

3:44:39UAP Gerb, this is always such a pleasure. I always learn so much from you. And please, everybody go subscribe to the channel, UAP Gerb. Anything else you want to kind of promote here? Gosh, I don't know. Whistleblower is your email. So anybody wants to. Yes, again, if you have firsthand exposure to UFO Legacy programs, please email my protonmail, UAPgerb, at protonmail.com. Again, the goal isn't to get you on camera. or just blindly feature your testimony, but let us talk. Let me take your testimony. I mean, I will fly to you in person if your story is credible enough and undergoes a strict vetting process I've done before.

3:45:22Take your testimony, record it, and try to get it to the proper folks. And if you've been met with reprisals, record those as well to try and get those to people who can assess those reprisals and hopefully get that solved. It's not a joking thing. It's not a serious thing. That's a very serious thing. If you've got firsthand exposure, please, please contact me there. Absolutely. Subscribe to his channel too. It's like the most hardcore best UFO channel online. Also is Patreon. Oh yes, please. Yeah. Yeah. I don't, I don't, I don't have the time to do like exclusive Patreon stuff, uh, nor do I want to gatekeep any of my stuff.

3:45:58So the, the, the Patreon, I don't gatekeep the, any content. It's only to support the channel. If you think it's, it's worth something, if you don't support on Patreon, please go like and subscribe to the projects. The guys making three-hour deep dives. You know, just like a fire hose of information. So just, you know, that deserves, in any other context you'd have to pay for that and, you know, you're nice enough to just put it out because this is a topic that I think it's probably hard to kind of, you know, put behind a paywall. But, yeah, I think you deserve as much sponsorship as you can get.

3:46:34Well, thank you, man. Yeah, man. All right. Thank you so much, Jesse. It's been a blast. Appreciate it, sir. Absolutely.