The Man Sitting On More UFO Evidence Than Anyone Alive

33:04This is what they look like. Biological anomalies, mammals. Oh my God, this guy's a genius. Yeah. Who is this guy? He was a genius. This is amazing. We corresponded for many years, then he passed. Wow. And then I wrote to his estate. Yeah. To come to his son. And his wife was 90 plus. Uh huh. And she started to compile everything in order for us. Wow. And we sent two pallets from the U.S. Oh, she's amazing. Yeah. And this behind you here is the oldest UFO group in the world, Borderland Science Research Association, BSRA. What? That's the most interesting UFO organization. Because they knew, you know, they knew about crashes sometimes before they would happen.

33:49Like, there's something very interesting about them. They were new more than intelligence in certain cases in the 40s about stuff. They were first. So what's their deal? Because they were funded by that guy, the mysterious guy. What's his name? He was like an occultist and like a magician. Yeah. So, and then they had all the early stuff around UFOs before intelligence agencies did. I went to Eureka, California. I met with this guy in his garage. We packed it all together and sent it back to Sweden. Wow. And you have Tesla and what is this? Brown and Burridge? It's probably Correspondence. Who's Brown?

34:29Maybe Townsend Brown. I'm not sure. Who can take a look? I don't know. The Immortal Cell. Ron Brown. Ron Brown. Oh, Townsend Brown. Yeah. Yeah. You can take a look and see what this is. It happened to me in the woods. I was hiking solo. New year, no phone, no gear. I was just trying to find myself. That's when I saw it. Something glowing, silent, descending through the trees. A UFO. And stepping out from it wasn't an alien or an android. It was me. But better. Same face. Same great hair. But something was different. This guy had perfect posture. He was wearing the perfect jean. And they start at just$79, 6 fits, sizes for every thigh on this timeline and beyond.

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36:16Well, the Borderlands Society, they had connections with Brown. They had some apparatus still left in the garage that I couldn't bring. But I'm not sure if they're functioning. But I think they are still left in Eureka. Really? What apparatus? Yeah, I don't really know. It's like big boxes with switches. Really? What? Yeah. I want to check that out. I'm more interested in him than anyone else. Yeah, I understand. I read a book about him just a couple of months ago. The Man Who Mastered Gravity? Yeah. What did you think? I think it was fascinating. It's fascinating, right? Yeah. Isn't he the most interesting man?

36:51So many mysteries around him. So many mysteries around him. He was onto something. I think so. I think so. Yeah. I think there's something very interesting about him. Townsend Brown. Townsend Brown. Townsend Brown. Townsend Brown. There's a guy named Townsend Brown. Okay, okay, Townsend Brown. I want to look that up. The holy grail of physics involves the unification of the four fundamental forces, which includes finding a missing link between electromagnetism and gravity. Einstein actually spent the latter half of his career trying to solve for this mathematically. It is my belief that this spooky inventor may have experimentally discovered this long-sought link.

37:32Which UFO case impacted you the most and changed your life the most? I grew up with the Barney and Betty Hill case, of course, and that was hugely important to me. And when I met Betty many years ago in the early middle of the 80s, I got a quite new view on her. So it's important to meet with the witnesses. What was your new view on her when you met with her? Yeah, well, I was... Most ufologists, if you read the books, it says that Betty Hill was not interested in UFOs at all before the encounter with the Indian head. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But she was. Really? And not only that, she told me that she was sitting on the porch together with her, I think it was sister, whatever.

38:20It was a relative. And something came across in the sky and crashed. And they went out in the field and brought back debris. What? From this crashed object. A few years ago, before this happened, this was in the 50s, I was over here in Maine visiting with a family. And it was a warm night, and we were sitting outdoors on the porch, when we saw what we thought at that time was a plane very slowly going across the sky. And while we were watching it, it exploded midair and burned. Now we said you know we've seen a plane blow up. We turned on the radio, we turned on the TV, nothing.

39:15Well up to my by my mother's my nephew had seen this burning debris come down from the sky And he watched it and when it cooled off he got some of them and my sister gave some pieces to me and said, you know we don't know what it is maybe I had some friends at the university maybe you could get someone to analyze it. So I had all these pieces and I had them in the closet there on the top shelf. And you know I didn't find anybody to analyze them. So just before, about four days before we left to go on the trip, Barney said, what's that stuff up on the top shelf? Why don't you throw it away? We could use the shelf.

40:07Well I was having some field put in the backyard. So I took the pieces and I threw them in the backyard and when they dump the sand they cover them about three days later we go on the trip

40:27really betty hill yeah and she brought it before her encounter yeah yeah everything is still out there in the garden if you oh so we got to go to her house you must dig there i will yeah it's not her house anymore so but it's in in new hampshire it's in portsmouth in portsmouth new hampshire No way. So that story you can listen to at IFU's website. I have this conversation with her. It's in writing, and you can hear her voice telling this as well. So the bottom line is she was very much into UFOs. That's fascinating. We got to go dig. Not the single ufollowers really cares about this. They don't want to know this.

41:06Her granddaughter is a UFC fighter. Yeah. And I think she's friends with Joe Rogan and has gone on the show. So maybe contact her. Say, hey, we're the residents of the current house. This is, I know that we can go dig and find this thing. You're wearing this epic Betty and Barney Hill. Oh, jeez. Oh, jeez. First abductees, 1961. No, I know his granddaughter. Yeah, she, Angela Hill, right? She's a UFC fighter? Yeah. So cool. Crazy. What does she say? She did my podcast and didn't tell me until after the podcast was over there. I was like, no, that's mad. That's amazing. You should do that. She was a lovely lady, I should say.

41:48And she told a very interesting story. And also when she drew the object to me, it looks like a box with sharp edges and big windows and a brim, like a hat. Wow. And you believed her? Did you feel like she was being honest with you? Yeah, she was absolutely honest with me. And as I said, she was a very nice lady. She treated us with a sponge cake and we were there all the day and talked with her. But it complicated the story. Yeah. Just for the audience, the core story is in 1961, Betty and Barney Hill, they were an interracial couple and they were ACLU activists actually. And they were on a road trip from, I think it was like Niagara Falls or they were in Canada and they were coming back down to New Hampshire.

42:36and on the way they see this craft and it's flying around and I believe there's audio and we'll play the audio for the audience but like Barney starts to like go after the saucer like almost like it's like he's locked into it and it's like she's afraid and wants to keep going and then he's very afraid after that so he don't want to pursue it alright I'll take it my head this boy pull up a dark little way God give me a try All right. Oh, darling. What is it? Holy man, I was down in my god. It's my god. Give me a chance. I got to get away. Oh, oh. So anyways, they meet these beings. They say they're from Zeta Reticuli.

43:25They have these uniforms on, these little gray beings. They get taken up on the craft. reluctantly. I believe Barney then admits that he like, um, samples were taken, like gametes were taken sperm cells from him. So it almost felt like some sort of like experiment being done on them. They checked on his teeth and there were false teeth because he had false teeth. Ah, interesting. They came running into Betty and asking, Oh, what, what's that? Interesting. That's the interesting thing about those aliens. They don't seem to know anything about anything. I mean, you should think that they should know.

44:00You're right. Yeah. But in that account, it almost sounds like they're truly trying to figure out what's going on. It's not like, it's like this routine thing. But they also do this pregnancy test on Betty with the needle. And that was old here at that point, really. I mean, it's not very high tech. Nobody does that anymore. So why do aliens from Sitter Reticuli use a method that is ancient? What do you think? I think this is not visitors in that way. And this was only told during hypnosis. Yes, later, hypnotic regression. They never really remembered it in the waking. So what do you think they had an encounter with?

44:47When you need to build up your team to handle the growing chaos at work, use indeed sponsored jobs it gives your job post the boost it needs to be seen and helps reach people with the right skills certifications and more spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes listeners of this show will get a 75 dollar sponsored job credit at indeed.com slash podcast that's indeed.com slash podcast terms and conditions apply need a hiring hero this is a job for indeed sponsored jobs it's very hard to tell But I think that all those stories are much more complicated.

45:23Much more complicated. She was a firm believer in aliens visiting Earth. She told Barney about her interest in that. And he didn't like that at all. But it's almost like that interest might have shaded their perception of what happened to them, when in fact what happened to them was much more complicated. I mean, if the beings said were from Zeta Reticuli, that does point. Well, they didn't say that because that was the star map. She drew a star map. That's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the star map is, of course, you can do that with lots of stars. Right. So it's not... But they said we're from another star system.

46:00And she asked about this map on the wall, and they told her that this was commercial lines where they were traveling to make business, really. I believe, have you read American Cosmic by Diana Pasolka? Are you familiar with it? Yeah. So she talks about the CBS show Outer Limits playing 11 days, premiering 11 days before this encounter that Benny and Barney Hill had. That show and the crashed metal debris in her cupboard. That had happened before. So it's so many things before. So we cannot really be sure exactly how they interpreted things during hypnosis. Right. Well, Posolka also says that the aliens in Outer Limits have eyes that wrap around their heads and that's what they see as well.

46:52So it's almost as if their perception is somewhat shaded by maybe their preconceived notions and knowledge. It's so interesting. Yeah. You know, also another weird fact about that case is C.D. Jackson, Charles Douglas Jackson, who ran psychological warfare and was very involved in MKUltra and then went on to, I believe, give the Supruder film, which is the film of JFK getting shot with the missing frames. He gives that to Time Magazine because he's very involved in sort of perception management for the public at the time. He's head of the Psychological Strategy Board with Gordon Gray and a few other guys at the time.

47:36He goes and visits Betty and Barney Hill a few weeks after their abduction. So interesting. It's like, so it was already like, you're talking about the elite of the elite of American warfare operations. You know, a guy who's very high up in government going to visit these two abductees. So strange in 1961. Yeah. Wow. I don't know. It's not easy, you know. It's not easy. But I think we have to find that artifact. Yeah. Yeah. Have you been digging for any other artifacts? Are there any other objects? Yeah, we have. Here in Sweden, we have up in the north, there was a guy who said that he was a young boy.

48:16He met these craft and aliens outside his house, and he got this thing from them, some sort of metallic tablet. And he hid it underground. And we went there together with him, trying to find it. Wow. But we couldn't find it. Really? No. Is there anything, have you ever found any objects that you think are convinced? No, no, we haven't. The only one that I showed you, I mean, things like that, but not any bonafide smoking gun thing like that. Do you believe that humans have in their possession on the civilian side, objects that might be from these beings, whatever entities we're interacting with?

48:57Because as you know, Jacques Vallée publishes his mailing address online. Yeah. People will mail him pieces. And recently, Gary Nolan actually just went on Joe Rogan Experience. And one of the pieces came from Ubatuba, Brazil, where this explosion occurred on the beach and this fisherman. Yeah, the magnesium. Exactly. Magnesium with extremely anomalous isotope ratios. It's also rare that there were such things at that time. Well, I think it would have been possible to have created, but you would have needed a centrifuge. and why the hell would somebody with a centrifuge, you know, give a piece of metal to somebody in Brazil on the beach to mail to Jacques?

49:38It just feels a little crazy, but... And why would you build a spaceship with magnesium? It doesn't really... It's not very good to travel in. Oh, I'll tell you why you'd be in a spaceship with magnesium. Okay. Because magnesium bismuth is a high-K dielectric. So it stores a lot of electromagnetic charge and it discharges it very quickly. And so if you look at like, you know, my belief is the anti-gravity or gravity manipulation effect is the Bifield-Brown effect, named after Townsend Brown. And if you put a high-K dielectric insulator in between two capacitors, one negative and one positive electrode, the thrust increases dramatically, the higher the K dielectric.

50:18So all of his papers include, it's two things. It's aluminum barium and magnesium bismuth. And so, and bismuth specifically is this big, really important part. But I don't know, maybe magnesium itself has some issues with it. Yeah, magnesium itself is not good. But if this alloy may be something different. Well, it seems like what he found had, it was like micron layers thinner than a human hair. Bismuth layers less than a human hair. Magnesium samples about 10 times the size of human hair. and so it's extremely thinly aligned and i think you get these topological insulators like that where when you excite them you seem to have electron coherence occur at scale and you get these very sort of anomalous effects and you even have aerospace looking into some of these these things so why do they explode over yuba so that the speculation on gary nolan's part is that that was the exhaust that was that's almost like the the byproduct of the craft and who knows you So the exhaust should spit out metallic debris.

51:25Yeah, I don't know. Is it something that they're using and they need that ratio to accomplish something? Or is it a byproduct of an effect where they take the natural things and then they're doing something, and this ends up being the outcome? And then when they're done with it, they go, ugh, and they throw it out. Do you hope to find a material? Do you think you can? I hope, of course, but I'm not sure I can. But if there is a report, we will, of course, go there and try to find it. We are mostly focused on finding recent goose rocket crashes. I mean, in 1980, there was a landing and an object that sank in a lake up in the very north of Sweden called Dammajaur.

52:12And we have been there. And we have radar returns that something is in the mud. Really? Yeah. Amazing. Yeah. When are you going to go look? We will be there again next year. That's exciting. So hopefully we can find something. Two very good witnesses. Wow. In the middle of the day. And they can see this object coming below 100 meters. Yeah. Flying over them. They follow it over the lake and it turns around 180. Yeah. Towards them lands with a splash and sinking. And bubbles are coming up. And then it's gone. And then they take out the camera from their rucksack and take a picture. Of course, it's gone.

52:54But they take a picture two minutes after the object is gone. They go back to Stockholm and contact the military. And the military's UFO expert at that time, Studi Wikerts, he really looks into this. He tried to find an explanation. But they couldn't do that. And they sent a helicopter over the lake. and I met one of the pilots and he told me, this is a natural park. You're not allowed to land there. But suddenly one of the passengers felt sick. Yeah. So they land. And they can see dead fish near the shore. So I take the fish with them and think, wow, this is atomic power, some radioactivity, I killed the fish.

53:44but it was only a parasite. And we found the same dead fish when we came there many, many years later. So just a parasite. Yeah. But the object is there. It's four meters of mud. And our expert who went with us said, if you see something, it will be not at the bottom of the lake, but in between, two meters. And exactly there, we got this return from an object that is still resting there. Really? We don't know what it is, but... But there is some object. Do you know the shape of the object? No, we only saw it in two dimensions. So next trip, we will look in three dimensions. Wow. We are not allowed to bring anything with us from this national park because it's a natural park.

54:30Yeah. So if you find something, we cannot bring it up. Well, if you need any extra media coverage or help in any way, I would love to come. I call you. That sounds amazing. It is amazing. And this is a very good observation. And we have several cases like that, that objects have, like in Norway, flying very low, turning, navigating, landing, sinking. Interesting. And it always seems to be in water. Always water. And the thing is, which I didn't really think about until recently, that all those observations around water, of course, people are living there. It's summer. They are out. It's good observation.

55:14I mean, they could see over the lake. But not a single one has seen any object flying over the lake and not landing. Every single observation ends with a crash or a landing, not a flyby. It's so interesting. Why do you think that is? I mean, they want to land. They want to crash. They want to pinpoint the lake. That's for sure. And I'm not sure why they do this. Do you think it's fuel? I mean, they're running out of fuel? No. Do you think water is their fuel? Oh, you mean that? Because, you know, the bonds between hydrogen and oxygen, H2O, are impossible to break from a human perspective. But if you were able to amount the energy necessary to break them, then that would be an extremely energetic reaction that could power a craft.

56:08I think it's like driving your car into a gas station full power and trying to get some petrol. Yeah, fair enough. I mean, they should land and be there for a while and then fly away. Right. But they are either crashing straight down or landing quite hard. Yeah, but it might be hard from our perspective and it might be refueling. I just, who knows, you know? It's interesting. I mean, water just seems like this very important element, you know, the idea that they're transmedium. Water is important. It is not a single object that's crashed on land in Sweden or Norway. That's amazing, yeah. The fact that they literally only, the ghost rocket phenomenon.

56:52But you're saying, because we talked about this the other week, you're saying that it's not just the ghost rocket phenomena that only hits the water. You're saying all UFOs have only landed in the water in Sweden generally. Sweden, Scandinavia. In Scandinavia. Yeah. So post-46, 47, all UFOs. That's amazing. Yeah. Wow. Yeah, it is wow. It's so interesting. And it's nearly always 11 o 'clock, July, clear weather, hot weather. That's what you said last time. It's so wild. So strange. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, there's definitely some selection bias based on, or observer bias, because that's when people are on their lake houses.

57:35Yeah, but that's when you see some flybys. Yeah, it's weird. I don't. They only see those landings and crashes. That's so strange. But we have only a small sample. I mean, maybe 30. Still, that's the fact that, I mean, that's enough to, that's a really important trend. And you were just given access to incredibly sensitive DOD archives here in Sweden. What did you see? I've been looking for the files from a very important military customs police operation in the early 1970s. They are still to be released in 2040. But I just the other day got the clearance to get them cleared. And did you see them?

58:21Yeah, I looked through them, but I would get a copy of them in a week or two. Well, what did you see? The interesting thing is that I found one observation that I knew the observer, this helicopter pilot. He was on standby looking for the trespassers that were flying in from Norway to Sweden in nighttime. Very strange object. Sometimes aircraft with no signatures, no lamps, nothing. But this night he got an order to lift, go up with his helicopter, trying to intercept an object coming from Norway. And he and his co-pilot, which I will talk to next week, he was flying 20 meters over the treetops.

59:09And it was moonshine, it was snow, so it was very, very good seeing. and suddenly this object coming flying under the helicopter over the treetops in this small passage of 20 meters and straight up in front of them an elongated rocket-like thing with no wings no lights nothing and it just flies away and it told me that i did like this i lifted my feet because it was so near our helicopter. Whoa. And now when I got those documents, I found this report. I could see the radar plot where they are intersecting their paths. And also the note from the military. So it's picked up by radar. Yeah. Whoa.

1:00:01Yeah. And you see the radar plot where the object is intersecting with this guy's helicopter. Yeah. That's amazing. Yeah. And they land. After this, they are landing. What? And the security, the military security personnel comes and debriefs them. And he tells a story, and they went away. What was the shape of the object? It was an elongated rocket-like thing with no wings. So similar to the ghost rockets? Typical ghost rockets. Typical ghost rockets. What year was this?

1:00:361975, November the 7th. How fast was it moving, the object? It was much faster than the helicopter, but they had plenty of time to see because of the moon and the snow on the ground. That's amazing because in the US, one of the holy grail events is the Tic Tac incident at Nimitz in 2004. And you don't have radar data for that. You have forward-looking infrared, which is kind of controversial. and they say that the radar data ended up getting classified. In this case, you have an eyewitness and you were able to see corroboration from the DOD archives that this object intersected this helicopter at this time.

1:01:20That's amazing. And I will talk to his co-pilot in a couple of days and get his view as well. So we have two witnesses, documentation, and what I'm looking for now is, of course, the security personnel's notes. Wow. I have no access to them, and I think I will not have any access to them. Well, how would you get that? I will try to get it, but... How would you get the security personnel's notes? I know people that works within the war archives. Okay. And they can help me to say if it's there. To see if he was actually debriefed when he came down and stuff. Yeah, I'm sure he was, because the whole operation was built on that.

1:02:01You were debriefing people after all those events. And you've spoken to this witness firsthand. Yeah, firsthand. And I talked to this helicopter pilot just a couple of days ago. Yeah. As soon as I found those documentations, I called him and said, okay, now I know which date it was. And I can see that they made this note that an object passed very close to the helicopter. And this is being declassified for everybody? at what point will this be released to the public? Yeah, I mean, it will be. When I'm getting it, it will be. And so when will that be? When this will be released? In a couple of weeks, I think.

1:02:43It all depends on how much I have to do scanning. Is the pilot in Stockholm? No. Where is the pilot? It's far away from here, so to say. In Sweden, though. It's a really nearer Norway than Stockholm. In Sweden, yeah. Damn. The other pilot is in Australia. Okay. Wow. When you need to build up your team to handle the growing chaos at work, use Indeed Sponsored Jobs. It gives your job post the boost it needs to be seen and helps reach people with the right skills, certifications, and more. Spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Listeners of this show will get a$75 sponsored job credit at Indeed.com slash podcast.

1:03:27That's Indeed.com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need a hiring hero? This is a job for Indeed sponsored jobs. Amazing. Well, that seems like an unprecedentedly important case. It is a good case. I hope that I can really find all the pieces here. Do you have any other cases like that where you have radar corroboration for an eyewitness sighting? Because that seems like very important. Yeah, we do have. I've seen with my own eyes military radar, UFO. Really? Yeah. You've seen with your own eyes? Yeah. And when was that? And what's the context? It was, I think, in 2005. It's what we call the first mobile picture of UFO in Sweden.

1:04:11It was two guys up in this cottage in the very north of Sweden. They were sitting playing card quite late and they hear a strange noise. So they went out and they saw this very illuminated object coming towards them. And it's moving around this cottage. So one of them get his mobile phone and take a picture. and you can see it's a very bright object with flashes around, but that's probably a lens flare, but it's a very bright object and it flies around the cottage and then it vanishes. So I go to the military radar unit, which is a very secret. You cannot just go there, but I know people. And I can see the radar returns from this event.

1:05:03You can see the object coming, going around. It's invasion. So, yeah, that's a case you can incorporate. That's absolutely incredible. Have you seen, so you don't have UFO material, have you seen the remnants of a UFO, just like you showed me that little piece of rock where it's interacted with a local physical environment in some way that's left out? No, not here in Sweden, no. Okay. Because you told me last time about lily pads being affected by the ghost rockets, and so you're showing that it's interacting with the physical environment. But radar is obviously reflecting radio waves. And so that's like, it's a really important, you know.

1:05:42And I interviewed six people at the radar station in the very north of Sweden. Ah, really? I found them one by one. They were there in the winter of 1973, 1974. At that point, they had left this mountain, you know, they're deep inside the mountain. They are up on the surface at lunch. and they are looking out around and suddenly they see over the treetops this cigar-shaped object moving like this. So they are running down into the radar equipment and they can see the object on their radar screens and it's doing 90 degrees angles like this. And suddenly it flies away over Norway and straight up.

1:06:34And every one of those six, I found them during several years, are telling the same story. Wow. All six? Yeah. That's amazing. Do you have them all on camera and stuff? No, I have them on tape only. Okay. Well, that's good. The problem is that they told me that their commander is in the mountain. They were asked by him to take pictures of the radar screen. So they did. But I didn't have found them. I don't know where they can be. Is the tape published on your website? No, no, I never published the tape. I've written about them in my books and things like that.

1:07:19This is Hedder Evans and his wife, Mary Evans. They run this. They have passed away now, but it's still Mary Evans Picture Library. you can buy pictures one of the biggest picture archives in england cool so and half of the books you see here comes from hillary look at these books some of these are beautiful yeah those are the the classics ones really uh yeah frederick wh meyers yeah i i have that book and we have it in very early editions you know what inspired him to write this book i don't remember now jesus's resurrection. He wanted to prove it using science. Well, he didn't manage that. William James was president of Society for Psychical Research, but he was close with William James and part of that.

1:08:12You know what this is? Yeah, of course. What do you think of this? I think it's something military, but not what the conspiracy theorists... Conspiracy theorists think that this is weather modification, weather control. Yeah. If they're doing that, they're doing it very badly. Speaking of conspiracy theorists, you wrote a whole book on solar flares. Yeah. So what do you think of solar flares? People say that now we have very high solar activity and that the magnetosphere of the Earth might be weakening. The magnetic poles are shifting. That's proven. Yes. But the Charles Hapgood, that that creates this sort of cataclysm.

1:08:49No, not Charles Hapgood's theory, really. But the science theory is really solid, and it could be problematic when it happens. Interesting. Because every gadget you have, like, trying to navigate with would be topsy-turvy. Yeah. And some of the solar events in the past, like the 1859 Carrington event, would wipe everything out. If that happens today, it'd be very devastating. you'd have no electronics, no Wi-Fi. Your grid would be down, no running water. Yeah. Yeah. And we don't have the spare parts. Yeah. So it would take months and months and months to rebuild the electrical system. Do you think that solar flares send with them a message or there's any sort of intelligent...

1:09:38You know, there's a scientist in the UK. He's in London, in Hampstead, outside of London, named Rupert Sheldrake. I know about him. He writes about the sun being conscious. Yeah. He wrote a Gaia book in the 1970s. I grew up with that, and I know about Rupert Sheldrake very well. Yeah. No, I don't think the sun is conscious. I think it's a star. Uh-huh. And a star does what a star does. Yeah. And the earth is not important to the star. Yes, but okay, if I were to push back, maybe. The magnetosphere of the earth is very important for all animal morphology to grow correctly. Like you could put a frog embryo in a Faraday cage and it won't grow correctly.

1:10:22If you put it next to a Wi-Fi router, it won't grow correctly. So there's something about the Schumann resonance, which is part of the anthropic principle, allows things to grow. And then the sun creates the perfect amount of UV radiation to create the perfect amount of mutations to allow for biological evolution. Like if evolution were too fast, it wouldn't be adaptive. And if it was too slow, it wouldn't be adaptive. And then now we have this new physics that Hal Puthoff is exploring around the possibility of a scalar field. NASA and the DOE just published a podcast around scalar physics. And so these scalar waves would get produced by the sun.

1:11:06And they move in ways that don't decay or attenuate over space-time like your traditional transverse Hertzian wave. so you could have some sort of communication you know to life on earth via the sun i don't think it's communication i think it's what the star does i mean every star does things like that and they are not aware of it they only do their thing but of course it affects the life on earth absolutely yes but you could say something very similar about a human through a materialist reductionist lens you could say we're ultimately we have the illusion of consciousness but we're not conscious and so you know we'll never know i never know of course i think it's quite a big difference between us and the sun or it's impossible to say though i mean clearly yes phenomenologically but um you know are we anthropocentrically cutting off consciousness you know, at a certain scale because that's our scale.

1:12:14You know, I don't know. We are a tiny fraction of the universe, so. Yes.

1:12:23This is my friend, Frederick Gouldal. He's a good guy. He's in Copenhagen. Do you know him? No. Ah, he's cool. Ammar and I met him, actually. Was it, it was two summers ago. This is right before we did the David Grush thing. So how many countries do you have files from? Oh, I don't know. I have no answer to that. But we have Japanese files, for instance, Russian files. Wow. I went to Russia once trying to save the KGB files. And when I went there, it was fighting in the streets. There were soldiers everywhere. They were shooting. But we were able to find a guy who had copies of some of the KGB files.

1:13:05Omar, is there anything coming up for you? You clearly have spent decades doing this and I'm just curious why. Yeah, why am I doing this? Because I'm very curious about how our world functions. I want to know what people really see. I want to get to the bottom of this mystery. And I've done that on several, several cases. I know, know what they saw. But there are a couple of hundred cases during the years that I'm still very baffled about. But I don't want to prove anything. I have no axe to grind. I'm not a believer. I'm just a curious researcher that I'm aware of that the answers could be something quite different from what I thought from the beginning.

1:13:56Is there something autobiographical, whether it's synchronicities you experience, something in your own life that keeps you going, where when you're thinking of maybe stopping or quitting, something - I'm not quite stubborn, you know. What's that? I'm stubborn. It sounds like you are. Yeah. And I'm a natural researcher really from the beginning. I'm an amateur astronomer and all that. And I was chosen the educator of the year here in Sweden. That's amazing. So people know that I really try very hard. And of course, it's okay to believe, but I want to know. Yeah. And when you say no, what is that if you were to instantiate that in something very specific?

1:14:40Yeah, I want to know what happened, really. I'm not sure I want... So do you want an alien being to come down and tell you? Do you want a material where you're like, this is definitely a UFO? In every single case, I want to know what happened. Oh, that's tough, man. It's tough. Because I even think about what people talk about as disclosure. And it's like, if a craft were right here and it had isotope ratios that were weird and technology that we don't really understand as far as antigravity, some, you know, you know, heavy element reactor thing, what would that do for us? Like, what does that would be?

1:15:19Change everything, of course. It would change everything, but it would beget a thousand more questions. It wouldn't be like, you know, your, your whole, I want to know. It wouldn't be like, I know now. It'd be like, I know. Tell me what is going on. It's impossible. As you say, every knowledge gets some new questions. that's true knowledge um questions grow at an exponent of your knowledge growing so it's like you could think of knowledge like a like a volume in like a cylinder or a sphere or something the more the sphere grows the the questions grow you know the outside uh at an exponent yeah and so it's the the more you know the less you know and that that really should be sort of with with everything.

1:16:02But then you have these sort of stultified fields, which is how, you know, academia teaches it, where it's like there's this received wisdom and it's like the law of thermodynamics. And it's like, you know, you get to the end of the chapter and it's, that's it, you know, end of it. But nothing is that simple. I usually say that we are standing at the very top of a mountain of knowledge today. Yes. But the mountain is resting on this mountain that is even bigger. Yes. That is moving into the future. That's beautiful. And suddenly we are a little higher up, but there is always a new mountain. Are there any philosophers in the UFO space or even outside of UFOs who you think speak most to the UFO question or researchers that you're really inspired by?

1:16:52Yeah, I'm inspired by, of course, we had said Jacques Vallée, but Chris Aubeck is a very, very good researcher. He's the best researcher when it comes to old cases. He's fantastic. His books are fantastic. And one of his latest books called Saucers shows that the saucer shape is so scarce. It's not very much reported. Still, people talk about flying saucers sometimes and think that it should be saucer-like. but it's only a fraction of all the observations that are saucer-like yeah even if you look at like where the saucer came from you know the Kenneth Arnold case it wasn't really saucers no they kind of look more like Horton Wing yeah they were crescents crescents yeah like ninja stars or something yeah yeah yeah so it's interesting do you think you know Carl Jung wrote a book about flying saucers are you familiar with this yeah I read it and he said that You know, that was the mandala, which was the Sanskrit symbol of psychic completeness is represented in the UFO.

1:18:02Archetype he talks about. In a way, I understand him, but I don't think he's very important to you for research. Yeah. But of course, if you're living in a society, you are telling the stories that society can manage to listen to. Yes. And we are conforming all the time. So it's not strange that it was airships in the 1800s. Yes. And full fighters and then ghost rockets and now spaceships. It's just that we are using the words we have, the most high-tech thing we can think of. Yes. So I don't think it must be anything of that. But what's also just John Mack, you know, Harvard, you know, head of the psychiatry department there, he would say that the tech we would see would be at the bleeding edge of what we could even create.

1:18:56So it is in some ways. Even digital, really, I think. Yeah. So in some ways, you are snapping it to a grid and you have this meme in your head and you're superimposing it on what you understand. But in other ways, it's actually like leading technology itself. Like airships were just starting to be a thing, but they weren't really a thing in the 1890s. So maybe they're inspiring technological innovation. And you can say the same about the sci-fi writers, you know. Yes. They have been leading many of the guys who got us to the moon. Yes. They read the sci-fi first. Oh, yeah. And they were inspired by that and thought, wow, this could be done.

1:19:35Yes. So you need that element to be able to take the next step. You absolutely do. And I think, yeah, you need the mythological element almost always supersedes the actual doing of the thing. But I think we've lost that for at least a little period after World War II maybe. And now it seems like things are speeding up again. I mean, after the World War II, we were occupied with other stuff really. Yes. Building the world again. So, yeah, the dreaming were maybe put in the drawer for a while. Do you think there's something about, you know, just the space programs themselves that interacts at all with the UFO phenomenon in a deeper way than meets the eye?

1:20:21I don't think so. No, I don't think so. Because you said you spent some time with Edgar Mitchell, right? Yeah, yeah. So Edgar Mitchell's the sixth man to walk on the moon. Apollo 14, on the way back from the moon, he had this sort of parapsychological conversion where he… It's an experiment with a Swedish guy, really. Ah, really? Tell me about it. Yeah, they had managed to put this program that Edgar Mitchell should be sending things. And the other one was to pick them up. So like a typical mind matter experiment where you have a sender and a receiver. Okay. But there are some problems with that because the time frames were not, they were not followed as they should have been.

1:21:05But it was interesting that they did it. Very. And was it a successful experiment? Not that successful. Okay. No, no. That's too bad. It didn't prove anything really. No, but it was done. And that was very interesting. And he started this society afterwards, Edgar Mitchell, that worked with psychical things. The noetic society. Yeah. Did you learn anything when you spent time with him? Yeah, the thing he was very adamant about was that not a single astronaut had ever seen UFO in space. I'm not sure about that. I'm sure. He said it to me. So, I mean, he knew them all. But they all signed NDAs. and I don't know if you know this James Fox story, but Buzz Aldrin, according to his sister, had seen a UFO as a fighter pilot in World War II.

1:21:55And James Fox had heard rumors that he had also experienced things in space. And so he followed Buzz Aldrin all around the world. Buzz Aldrin's like, I'm in this country, I'm in this country, and he's paying for hotels in the different countries just to interview Buzz Aldrin. And he's about to get his interview. He's staying at the Monte Carlo Hotel in Monaco. And Buzz Aldrin says, I'm not doing the interview. I said, what do you mean you're not doing it? It was like, I can't do it. He's Paul Allen, just invested in SETI, and he got labeled a UFO freak or something, and I can't jeopardize my initiative.

1:22:31I'm working with Congress right now. I'm trying to get money to develop a rocket that's going to help put civilians into space. I can't do it. He's implying that he has something to say about UFOs, but if he did, it would hurt his reputation. Then he said, he said, and how's my story going to change anything anyway? And I said, well, with all due respect, sir, people of your caliber coming forward really helps elevate this topic. Your testimony would be paramount to do that. And remember, this was in the 90s, right? Yeah, probably late 90s. I talked to him, but yeah, it was a while ago. And so he's like, well, I can't, I'm sorry, it's not going to happen.

1:23:11so that i was devastated like devastated i mean maybe we're reading into it right but you never know you want to believe but he's kind of implying in that comment that he has something to say about ufos and so and then there's speculation obviously in american cosmic that you know astronauts signed ndas for a reason you have this guy who now has been outed his name is tim taylor is a nasa mission controller, and he says, astronauts are forced to stay silent, but they all see stuff in space. And so you have more and more coming out about this. I know a lot of astronauts and customers. You do, yeah.

1:23:50And not a single one of them has said anything like that. Fair enough. Do you know any very well? Yeah, I mean, the Swedish ones I know very well. Okay. I go to know Gamitra very well. Okay. I met with a couple of the guys who walked on the moon. And a few, maybe 10, cosmonauts from Russia. Yeah. And one of them told this story that he fooled the other guy in the capsule when he knocked his elbow in the capsule. Yeah. And he produced those ice particles flying out. Yeah. And he said, wow, look there. Oh, wow, it's a fleet of UFOs. That I know. But I only try to comment on things that I really spend time.

1:24:36Do you know who Lianev is? One of the fathers of the Russian space program? No, I don't know. So his goddaughter is a woman named Dr. Ia Whiteley. I don't know if you're familiar with her, but she's a space psychologist and she sees a lot of astronauts. And she says they all see stuff in space too. So it's so interesting because you seem extremely hardheaded and thorough. I mean, you're like the most thorough guy ever. And so I fully trust you when you say you know a lot of astronauts. I want to hear it from the horse's mouth. Yeah, me too. Not from someone else who says, oh, they have you. Sure, sure, sure.

1:25:12Yeah, yeah. No, I do too. What's so strange about Edgar Mitchell is Edgar Mitchell left behind an estate, and he had many papers in this estate. One of the papers from the estate is the Wilson memo, which is now talked about ad nauseum in American UFO disclosure, you know, where you have records of Eric Davis, who's a civilian scientist, who's obviously extremely well-versed in exotic propulsion and, you know, UFO stuff, related stuff. and Admiral Thomas Wilson, who's head of J2 Joint Chiefs, who's supposed to be in charge of all, you know, military technology, and they're meeting outside of the EG &G parking lot, and Thomas Wilson is livid that he hasn't been read into UFO programs.

1:25:56That wasn't meant for public consumption, and that was released from Mitchell's estate, and that was supposed to be destroyed one year after Mitchell got a copy of it as a courtesy from who generated it. And, uh, unfortunate that his kids were sloppy and, um, and I guess Ed was sloppy in that he didn't give any instructions on what to do with that document, if, if he should die, but he was supposed to destroy that as far as I understand. It seems like Edgar Mitchell is, had some really interesting access. He was very interested. In UFOs. Yeah, absolutely. Very interesting. Why did he, if he goes to space, none of his colleagues see anything in space.

1:26:39He does a couple of parapsychology experiments. Why does he come back so high conviction that, you know, in the alien? I mean, he was a believer even before. He was. Yeah. So he was curious about this, but he didn't see anything and he says that nobody else did. So, uh, I only can tell what he told me. What were the interesting things he told you? We talked a lot about, he met with Uri Geller, you know, he did experiments with Uri Geller. He was very much impressed by him. I met with Uri Geller as well. I'm not impressed by him at all. I have friends who do exactly the same tricks as he can do.

1:27:14Yeah, he seems like a bit of a con man. He's, yeah. Well, he also, now he goes on Twitter and he goes, Putin, don't press the button. He goes, I had a vision that you're going to, and it's like he's been wrong so many times. Nobody even care anymore. And I met with James Randi, you know James Randi? Yeah, of course. Yeah, we sat like this, but even closer. Yeah. And he bent his spoon in front of me. I couldn't tell how he did it, but I know how he did it. He bent it like that. I couldn't see it. Yeah. But the thing he did, he put my hand over my own watch. Yeah. And then his hand over my hand, and then he moved it.

1:27:53And it was five hours like that. Yeah. And we did it again, and it was back to the same time. That's so interesting. Interesting. It's hard to do that, but... Well, he was an amazing magician. Yeah, he was the amazing Randy. The amazing Randy. But he also, I don't know, I think in some ways he could have been a bad faith actor. Yuri Geller is one of these things where, cases where, you know the Princeton Parapsychology Lab has a whole book on Yuri Geller and they studied him a lot. Andrei Puharic brought Yuri Geller to the States. I think it was there, again, Michelle met with Yuri Geller. Oh, interesting.

1:28:32So I think there might have been something interesting going on with him from just a pure parapsychology perspective. And then he also blew it out of proportion, had all this BS stage magic that he was doing. And then you get the amazing James Randi with his prize to be skeptical. But the most gullible people you can ask for are the scientists. That's interesting. I kind of agree with you, but what do you mean by that? They are not prepared to be fooled. They are prepared to watch if they can see something strange and measure it. Ah, so they think that reality is, oh, that's so interesting. Yeah.

1:29:14So they're not prepared for a magic trick or something? No, no, they aren't. Ah, that's a good, that's so fascinating. I like the way you put that. Anything else Edgar Mitchell told you? Oh, we talked for hours and hours. I don't remember now. I wrote a long article. I think you can find the article in English if you are looking for my name and Ed Mitchell. Cool. Because I published it and it's out there. That's fascinating. But it was nice to have a long, long talk with him about everything that I was interested in. What UFO-related meeting impacted you the most? Oh, that was hard. I mean, when I was young and my first investigations, I think that made the most impact on me.

1:30:04Because there was this huge observation near my hometown when I was 16. There were lots of policemen and journalists standing at the top of this mountain, watching for hours an object moving in the south. And I was out behind my house at the same time, 100 kilometers away. And I also saw the object. But they didn't understand what it was. And they were so excited about this. They made drawings that was really fanciful. And there was so much speculation. Every newspaper wrote about this. And I knew what it was. I wrote to the newspapers. I was 16, and I published my explanation. It was the planet Jupiter.

1:30:58It's been for hours. And I was so scared about this. Everyone took pictures of it. They were printed in the newspapers. And I could compare the stars around this object with my pictures taken the same evening of Jupiter. Why? The same stars. Why would they be so freaked out about the planet Jupiter? Because they didn't know what it was. And? It doesn't normally show in the sky there. One guy, a civilian, was there. He was an Adamski believer. Okay. He was a true believer that Adamski had traveled in space with aliens. Yeah. And he pointed to his object and said, can't you see the windows? And they were looking, yeah, yeah, we can see the windows.

1:31:43What they could see were the moons, the three moons that were Jupiter at that point. That's unbelievable. So he was impacting them. And that was very, very good learning for me. That if you have a group of people, they tend to see the same stuff. Because you don't want to be the guy that sports the party. So they're crowd-like dynamics. Absolutely. That was my first big UFO case. That's so interesting. It's like Gary Nolan where he got into becoming the UFO scientist by debunking a case like the Atacama mummy or whatever. So at what point you do that? You debunk this case. Yeah, I did. And then at what point do you decide you're going to dedicate your life to UFO research?

1:32:35I already decided that a couple of months earlier. So this was just the big case. But then I met a lot of people with strange stories that was very much more difficult to understand. But why did you decide that a couple of months earlier? What was the moment? I started a small UFO society in my hometown called UFO Mariestad. Had you had an experience? No, no, no. Not at that time. I had not seen anything. I was just curious about how everything works and what did people see. I wanted to know what people saw in the sky. Have you had an experience since then? Yeah, yeah. I had an experience together with my wife.

1:33:18In 1995, November the 5th. We were out traveling by car. It was midnight. We had been out meeting with guys. I think it was a birthday party. I was driving. Man, Anneli was sitting beside me. And we were just coming into the suburbs of Stockholm. We were very near our house. And there were two guys standing at the bus dock, waiting for the last bus. One of them were pointing up in the sky. The other one was looking. So I said to Annelie, can you lean forward and see what they were looking at? And she did that. But she said, no, it's a fantastic sky. It was. It was a brilliant, starry sky all the night we were traveling back to Stockholm.

1:34:03So we passed them. And we were quite near our house. So I parked the car inside our garage. And we went out and I thought, now I will take a look and see if I can probably find out it was a planet or whatever. so we scanned the sky we stood one meter from each other and suddenly out of the black in the Gemini between Castro and Pollux not from the horizon just bang came three illuminated plus signs pum pum pum and they flew they flew over us and I only saw it immediately so I didn't have to say anything, but I said, oh, did you see? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we ran after them around the corner because they passed over our roof.

1:34:53And we could see them flying over our neighbor's roof and vanishing. And they were glued together. It was a small space beside them, but they were glued together. And it was so easy to see. When you say glued together. I mean, they were moving exactly the same speed. Three different plus signs. Were they like three UFOs perpendicular to one another? Or were they... Like beside each other. So it was a... Okay. So they were plus sign formations of UFOs. No, they were plus signs. Solid plus signs. Solid plus signs. Wow. Have you ever heard of a case like that? that point but i took a look but i should say one more thing that yeah i said to annalee we don't talk we go inside here's a form you sit in the kitchen i'm sitting here spoken like a true ufo researcher so you literally made yourself like this double blind witness and then you both described what you see and you didn't talk no that's amazing you you maintain your discipline even in your own sighting.

1:36:07What should I do? That's awesome. So we made drawings and everything, and they were not exactly the same. They never are, but they were of the same objects. Wow. Yeah. And after that, I put an investigator for UFO Sweden to try to find an answer. So he tried to see if he could find an answer to this, but he couldn't. Were the plus signs what color? White? White. Okay. And how fast were they traveling? Wow. How low were they? They felt very low, but it's impossible to tell. I mean, it was a black sky and stars, but they were not satellite altitude, not aircraft altitude. They were lower. Any other anomalies like right-angle turns or disappearing or lights?

1:36:59The thing was that they were really coming out of the blue, on the black, not from the horizon. That was a strange thing. It's like they just appeared. Yeah. And I never talked about this to anyone for months, except for the researcher, because it was so strange. But half a year later, I was interviewed on radio, and I was asked, have you seen anything? And I couldn't lie. So I told the story. And then the telephone rang a couple of hours later, and the guy said, you should talk to my mother. I called her. She was in her 80s. And she was a young girl in the 30s. And she had been out with her mother, who was inside a house.

1:37:45She was waiting outside the house in this field. Middle of the day, sunny. She was just bored. And suddenly, on the road in front of her, three illuminated plus signs appeared out of nowhere rolling on the road huge whoa and gone wow were yours also rolling like no no okay hers were yeah yours were more floating yeah they were rigid really wow that must have it's almost like a cosmic joke that the ufo researcher sees a thing that looks so not like a flying saucer, or even though the flying saucer wasn't seen that much, or triangles, or it's the more common thing. Klaus, do you ever wonder what if in one of these random manila envelopes?

1:38:38The answer. Yeah, or is just the most undeniable evidence? Yeah, of course. We haven't read them. Yeah. I mean, we have read some of them. So we need to get you funding, man. Yeah, we really need to get some funding to make this available. Do you have any plans to digitize? We do it all the time. Okay. All the time. We only have one guy to do it. So he's sitting under an avalanche, you know? What's that guy's name? Let's give him a shout out. Leif Ostrand. He's a real hero. Leif Ostrand. Thank you for doing what you're doing. That's amazing. Who has spent the longest amount of time here as an independent UFO researcher and has gotten the deepest on the files besides you?

1:39:19Yeah, yeah. Who could that be? We have some friends in Europe, of course. Yeah, Gregor Jadjian from the U.S. He spent a couple of weeks here writing his book. He's a professor in history in Penn State. Interesting. Is he into UFOs? He wrote this book about the history of UFOs. He did? Yeah. Okay. I don't know who he is, really. He's often on TV. I'm an expert. He's very good. Do you like him? Yeah, I like him. Really good researcher. Do you know the Penn State, Eric Walker? Do you know who that name is? Dr. Eric Walker. He was at Penn State in their materials lab. He was a lead scientist, and he had a lot of interesting meetings where he seemed to claim that he was part of the Majestic 12.

1:40:14There's a British Armenian physicist named Azadel, and that guy spoke to Henry Azadell. He's a very, very elusive guy. He has several names. He published his Silver Diamond South Africa thing with the fraud. So do you think he was like an intelligence? Yeah, yeah, I don't trust him at all. So maybe do you think his conversation wasn't real with... I don't know, but Henry Azadell, he's not a bona fide UFO guy. Because you know about his conversation with Eric Walker? No, I don't know about that, but I know about Henry Acedel. So, I mean, I'm sure you're familiar with Grant Cameron. Yeah, yeah. So Grant Cameron wrote a book, and in it is a whole transcript of a conversation between…

1:41:01Grant is a good guy. Yeah. Yeah. But Henry, I mean, he faked those documents, or he did spread them with the knowing of them being faked. Apparently there was a meeting between Kit Green and Eric Walker where Kit Green was like, I want to know about the UFO secrets. And Eric Walker kicked him out of the office and was like, I can't tell. He was like, I know about this, but I can't tell you. And he got very paranoid. And then there's also, I'm sure you're familiar with Steinman, William Steinman. So William Steinman also had correspondence with Dr. Eric Walker because he was in touch with Sarbacher.

1:41:40Sarbacher described somebody like Eric Walker as being very involved with crash retrievals. And so I believe he went to Penn State, Steinman. Him and Scott Crane, I believe his other colleague, and they tried to meet with Eric Walker. And Eric Walker again was like, you guys are chasing your tails. I think he called them actually. There's a call between Steinman and Eric Walker. and he said, you know, what do you know about the Sixth Sense? What do you know about Psy? And then he says, you know, nothing. I don't know anything. And he goes, until you know about that, you don't know anything about this.

1:42:20And you're chasing, basically, it's like Don Quixote. Yeah. It's fascinating. So I was just thinking that because this guy is... That is interesting, but not Henry. Esadel, yeah. Yeah, he has too many problems. But you can't, if somebody is an Intel agent and they have a lot of fake stuff involved with them, you can't always throw the baby out with the bathwater. You can never trust them. For sure. You always have to take everything with a total grain of salt. Yeah. But you also can't discount everything they say. There are people, I think, in the U.S. now who are on the circuit who I'm pretty sure are disinfoed.

1:42:54Absolutely. But that doesn't mean you should not talk to them. No, no. Absolutely. Talk to them. Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. And then hold things in very low probability that they say and look for real corroboration. Yeah. But yeah. I agree with that. Yeah, okay, okay, okay. For sure, for sure. Yeah. But there are too many of them, so it's very hard to distinguish. There are a lot. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know. Yeah, I'm just saying with the Henry Azedetto, like maybe some stuff's true, some's fake. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It could very well be like that. So, Klaas, you mentioned Adamski, which is a very interesting case around a guy who also might be kind of a con man or a snake oil salesman, hard to say.

1:43:33It seems like he was caught in some lies. Some people think that he was just a puppy for the government or things like that. But many of the pictures he took, you know, those motherships and scout ships, he was traveling, he said, with the aliens to the moon and other things. Do you think there is anything to any of his comments or statements? He was hanging out with some interesting people. Absolutely. it with uh george van tassel right who was uh you know howard hughes contemporary and so do you think there was anything to that case or i thought it's rather complicated but i i don't think his his pictures have been properly analyzed i think they should be there was one guy who did some analytic work on it but he don't want to share yeah when i asked him he don't want to share how we did it.

1:44:30And I don't like that. I know there are diaries that Adamski wrote, and I would love to see them. I know that Glenn Steckling has read them, and I would love Glenn to share that, but we have not gotten that far. Yeah. So there are still some openings or closings. I'm not sure which one it is to the case. So I want to know more really about Adamski. So you haven't made up your mind. I've not made up my mind. I keep a slightly open door, but I think most of it are not as good as it should be. What about Billy Meyer? He's another Swiss. Oh yeah. Billy Meyer I don't trust at all. You think that he hoaxed the photo.

1:45:18I mean, the photos look too good to be true in many cases, but then also complicated where people say, you know, in the beginning, he was attracting real stuff. And you get the same thing sometimes with Chris Bledsoe, where people are like - It's always a story, you know. In the beginning, it was good. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't buy that. You don't buy it. I don't buy that. And if I have loads of his pictures at home, and some of them are so incredibly bad, You can see there are models standing on a table. That's not good. He used even pictures from books. Yeah. You know, the time travel he made to the dinosaurs.

1:45:56Yeah, yeah. That was so strange. I have that book at home. I took a picture of a dinosaur in that book and said, oh, this is the picture I took when I traveled back in time. That's crazy. It's not. He says that in the book? Yeah. Okay. After this, it's hard to take him seriously. Really? He says he took a photo of a dinosaur in the book? And it's clearly a fake photo. Yeah, yeah. I have the book myself. I can pair it. It's exactly the same picture. Jesus Christ. And you have this picture when an alien is standing with this ray gun in his hand or her hand. I don't know. The alien is cut exactly there.

1:46:29You can only see the arm. And this incredibly fake looking gun, like from a toy store. I just had a guest on who said, this guy's name, Jason Reza Giorgiani. He says that Billy Myers was like an MI6 agent. Have you heard of that? Billy Meyer. Also not really his name. I mean, his name was Edward Meyer. He got the name Billy when he was working in Tehran. The guy was 007. He was a James Bond style super spy field intelligence operative. Really? Working primarily in the Middle East. Billy Meyer. Yeah. Until he had an accident in Turkey. In a bus accident, his arm was severed. And then he moved on to this property in Switzerland where he became an older man and he became the Billy Meyer that we associate with the contactee phenomenon.

1:47:20I didn't know that. I dug up this and have documented it all in Closer Encounters. Whoa. So, Edouard Meyer was working for somebody in the Middle East that gave him access to all of the Arab potentates. He met with all of the royalty in the Middle East. He had access to the court of the Shah of Iran. In particular, he was very close to the King of Jordan. Billy Meyer. Billy Meyer. What? He had like British intelligence times? The foreigners tend to love to make stories better. Yeah. Most of the time, he's just a crazy guy. Crazy. He makes things to make himself a new Jesus like Billy Meyer really tried to do.

1:48:01That seems to be a thing. I mean, one of the best books, I think, in UFO research is Jacques Vallée's Messengers of Deception. Yeah, that's true. You get all this cult creation around certain figures in ufology. It's interesting, because here in Sweden, we have quite a few sorcerer cults. Yeah. Where guys want to make themselves bigger than they are. Really? I told stories that are quite far out and got followers, mostly women. Okay. Interesting. What do you think? I feel like I need to ask you because you've probably seen more UFO photos than maybe anybody in the world. Yeah, loads of them, really.

1:48:47What is your top UFO photo? Is there anyone? I mean, the thing about UFO photos is that they were better earlier. Yep. The 70s. And when you call the guys who took the pictures in the 70s, they tend to say, okay, I faked it. I did so with every single Swedish 1970 photo. And it's always young man, not a single girl. And when I called them 10 or 15 years later, they said, okay, I admit, I did it. It faked, except one who still maintains his story. and that picture looks so faked. But he's a Christian, he's a very firm believer in Jesus and lives a good life. And I give him the chance every second year, I call him again and say, hi, it's me.

1:49:45You can admit that you faked it now. Yeah. And he won't admit it. Yeah. What's his name? Oh, it's a guy here in Sweden, so I'm not sure. Christus Sundström. Okay. Yeah. And do you have the photo? Yeah, I don't have it here, but I can, of course. You can send it? I can send it to you and everything. I'd love to see it. Absolutely. Is that the most visually appealing, clear photo that you can't debunk? It's incredibly clear. I can fake it any minute if I want. I did it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I did it as well. Well, that's the problem with all these photos. Oh, so you did fake it. Yeah, I did fake it.

1:50:20Well, you can fake any of these photos. And then certain ones you can't also debunk. And so they end up inherently in this liminal space where if you have a guy who seems really honest and there's no incentive to fake it, then you're stuck. There's no way to fully prove it or disprove it. The thing is that it's not the picture. It's the story. I mean, when you go to this guy and make an interview and to make him show how he saw this incredibly strange trip and how he took the picture and what happened afterwards, then it falls apart. Really? Yeah. So you think that it's fake because the story doesn't actually stand out of it?

1:51:08Yeah, the story, if you meet with people, you can get the facts you need, not by analyzing the picture. But this very Christian guy, you think that that photo is fake? Yeah, I think it's fake. You think it's fake? Yeah. So what's the best UFO photo that you think is real? Yeah, I was trying to find out that. Most people should say the McMinnville picture. McMinnville, yeah. But of course, I went to this conference in France a couple of years ago, and this analyst showed us that you can clearly see there is a string if you make a data enhancement of it. Really? So I don't know anymore. Oh, no. McMinnville.

1:51:47Yeah. That's like a holy grail. It's very hard to find a picture you can say that, wow, this is good. Wow. You have to look for the story. So is it safe to say there are no UFO photos that your very high conviction are real? Yeah, I have no photos that I'm, except the one I told you about with the radar returner I saw myself. That picture is, of course, of the thing that flow around the lake and the radar picked up. So that was in the northern part of Sweden in 2005. and since I saw the radar return myself on the military radar, I know it was there. And of course he couldn't know it was a military radar.

1:52:36So you have on that case, you have radar, you have a photo, and you have two witnesses. That might be one of the best UFO cases ever. It's for real. That happened. And that's the one you're going to go digging for? No, it's around the same area. Around the same area. But not connected in any other way. Okay. It's many, many years between them. Wow. Yeah. Fascinating. Klaus, what do you know now that you wish you would have known as a researcher 40 years ago getting into this field? I would have loved to understand that it's very scarce time you have to make interviews with people before they pass this away.

1:53:18I miss so many. Who are no longer there. Who's top of the list? Lots of people from the ghost rocket era. Investigators and witnesses that I, in the 1980s when I started to pursue that, there were gone many of them. Who's the number one person? It was a policeman up in the very north of Sweden who was very much doing research and met people all around North Sweden and made interviews. I missed him. That's really, really sad. And I missed, of course, several of the witnesses around the lakes. It's cool that you chose a police officer and the witnesses, which I think is a testament to what you focus on, which are the core details of what happened in each case.

1:54:11Whereas a lot of UFO researchers, assume truth on this like large scale. And then they get into all these kind of pontificating metaphysical questions. And so you're, you know, very obviously rigorous. And so appreciate your time, man. And thank you for having us. Thank you.

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