The Man That Hacked NASA and Found UFOs [Interview w/ Gary McKinnon]

32:42I think it was a few lines at a time. So it was coming in blocks and I'm looking and there's like blackness. then there's like slowly a hemisphere started appearing and i'm thinking fuck that's a planet what the hell this could be what she said then the hemisphere comes into view and it's very blocky but it's kind of blue white so i'm thinking well it must be earth and then suddenly there's a big straight kind of silvery line and then it's coming down then that's i guess what they now call a tic-tac, but it's what we used to call cigar shaped object. And this thing was admittedly, it's low resolution.

33:19It's coming down slowly, but this thing looked very kind of smooth on the outside. There was no lines, but there would be like plates fixed or screws and bolts and stuff. And, uh, I was just thinking, my God, this is my eureka moment. Confirmed Donna hair story. Not that Donna hair story needs confirming. Yeah, and I got the whole ship in view, and then it started to go below that where I would see the rest of the sphere of the Earth, I assume it was the Earth. And it was just amazing. The only man-made, possibly man-made thing that was there was geodesic domes, like radar stations, one atop, below on both sides.

34:01And I thought, well, that's strange. It's kind of manmade looking, but not manmade looking. And then I've got graphical remote control. I see the mouse move. Someone else, the person, someone else is at the computer themselves and they're moving the mouse. They right clicked on the local area network icon, you know, right next to your clock on the bottom, right of your windows taskbar, disconnect and boom. And that was it gone. I was cut out and i'm sitting there like waiting oh my god breath in my eureka moment come on come on come on oh my god anything else on the cigar so smooth no it doesn't seem like rivets or seams it's hovering above the earth do you notice anything else no just like a very smooth cylinder the geodesic domes and so the little dome dome on top dome on bottom yeah and either end and on either end as well could just be the kind of cigar sure to like the closure of the sure sure sure i suppose yeah fascinating yeah so interesting and did you ever speak with you know yourself or through intermediaries with donna hair oh yeah and did she say that's the disc that i saw and i just because i think of disc with her and then cigar tic-tac with you yeah she saw that one photo of a disc but she also spoke to um okay so these are probably different images you're just confirming that the same building probably has a whole lot of images that they're sitting on yeah even though it might be 10 or 20 years later apparently this is still the place where there's images yeah yeah ufos or exotic craft and they're being airbrushed out it is proof that at least i mean it's really interesting that you have a whistleblower come out with nobody has any evidence for her claims at this point.

35:49And she says, you know, I, this is where we process the images. I was shown this image, building eight Johnson space center, you independently, you know, halfway across the world, hack into Johnson space center, look at building eight. And then one of the first things that pops up on your screen is an image of a UFO hovering above the earth, which is clearly not the exact same UFO, but it's, you know, it's definitely exotic. It's nothing you know it wasn't a rocket it wasn't iss it wasn't like a space lab or well it doesn't sound like a satellite to me a cigar like rotating around there's no antenna either there's nothing no like telemetry or sensor looking stuff doesn't yeah yeah that is wild i mean and then also now we have the uh lucky hindsight you know in in 2026 of commander david fravor's experience of 2004 just a few years later off the coast of San Diego, where he sees a Tic Tac object.

36:47And they have, you know, apparently radar. We've seen the FLIR imaging, the thermal imaging of this thing. It's for everyone to see. The Pentagon has verified that that's real. All four of us, because we were an F-18F, so we had pilots and WIZO in the backseat, looked down a small, saw a white Tic Tac object with a longitudinal axis pointing north-south and moving very abruptly over the water like a ping-pong ball. It rapidly accelerated in front of us and disappeared. our wingman roughly 8 ,000 feet above us lost contact also. And then you have a lot of other witnesses. You have his co-pilot.

37:18You have another plane and two pilots in that plane. You have, you know, a whole lot. You have the obviously radar. Some guys on the ship. Exactly. So are you the first, like, other? I mean, I believe there's some other Tic Tac and Cigar. Like, there's, you know, I think flying, there are Air Force documents from the late 40s that describe flying butane tanks. I don't know if you know about this. I haven't heard it described like that. David Grush, famous UFO whistleblower, has talked about this. And then in Robert Hastings' great book, UFOs and Nukes, which talks about UFOs showing up at nuclear installations all over the world, including in the UK, actually at Rendlesham Forest in 1980, really famous case.

38:03He talks about tic-tacs or cigar-shaped objects often being sort of like a mothership and saucers flying out of the Tic Tacs. Yeah, I think that was at Maelstrom AFB in America as well. Similar thing happened. Yeah, definitely a mothership kind of configuration. Yeah, a ton has happened at Maelstrom, actually. So it's definitely likely that in certain cases, some sort of Tic Tac. Because a Tic Tac or cigar is one of the most common descriptions people have. There's a case we were just talking earlier. Thank you, James Fox, great documentarian, for the intro to Gary. It's a great guy. And we were saying that he sort of single-handedly resuscitated this obscure Brazilian UFO crash in 1996, the Varginia case.

38:54And there's a guy, Carlos de Souza, who's an ultralight pilot geography teacher who literally saw the crash. And he felt the material, just like in Roswell with Jesse Marcel. It feels the material and it feels like, you know, memory metal. I could see quite a few pieces of debris on the ground and I picked them up. And it was kind of curved. And then I was surprised to see how light it was. So I said, I'll keep it. And so I crunched it up. And so I made this kind of movement, you know, to put it in my pocket. And what happened was this foil or this sheet regained its shape. so i thought what is this i was completely floored yeah it sprung back into its original shape and guess what the shape of the craft was that he saw that crash right so cigar tic-tac yeah so yeah lots of uh synchronicities there what was your first instinct when you saw it how did you feel and what did you think you know often i think like if you're taking like a multiple choice test.

39:59It's like your first instincts off and right, you know, and then you second guess yourself. So do you, did you have like a, an on the spot interpretation? I'm not an aeronautics expert or a space vehicle expert, but to me, you know, I, I watched space stuff with interest since I was a kid and it wasn't your normal space stuff. So I knew that. Um, but there wasn't, you know, I didn't know if it was extraterrestrial. Yeah. I still don't obviously, you know, it could be something manmade, but it was definitely something secret because it was nothing like, like we already have up there. Dan, did you, uh, have any sort of like instinct of, I mean, the obvious question is like, is it ours or is it theirs?

40:39Yeah. You know, it's a big distinction. Well, I think because of Donna Hare's story, my instinct was that, yeah, it was alien because that's what she described. She described unknown things in high res NASA satellite imagery that they had to airbrush out because i don't know maybe they thought it would panic the public or they had no explanation for it and what does she say as far as why they airbrushed it out and didn't just admit you know yeah we're surrounded by these cool exotic objects yeah we shared a few emails she's passed now unfortunately god bless her soul um and we had one i think it was like two and a half hour three hour phone conversation.

41:17And, um, she thinks that just like a lot of us do that a lot has been hidden. Uh, it's been hidden for reasons of control. Um, but it's weird when you try and extrapolate from this, you think, well, wouldn't you use technology like that in a war? If you had that, would you use it openly to your advantage or so to me, that tells me that it's still unknown even to the people with the highest authority on that subject. I think that's right. If it's not well known and it's flying with impunity over our nuclear sites and in sensitive airspace and in space next to, you know, our recon satellites and stuff, you would be extremely embarrassed to you wouldn't be able to admit, you know, you know, but if but if you did know what was going on, you would just tell the public.

42:03like, yeah, not only do we know what's going on, but then you try to signal that you know what's going on and you've like reverse engineered it because you'd want to, you know, kind of soften, you know, the enemy sort of thing. And so I actually think some of modern disclosure might be, you know, intel tactics to try to like say that we know more than we do, but also recruit on the topic because like actually they don't really know what's going on. Yeah, I think you're absolutely right. Embarrassment is a huge factor. Yeah. Even just my hacking was an embarrassment. So if they're embarrassed about something like that, can you imagine?

42:38Yeah, I mean, it's just indeterminable. It's hugely different. And also fear, because why are they here? When you need to build up your team to handle the growing chaos at work, use Indeed Sponsored Jobs. It gives your job post the boost it needs to be seen and helps reach people with the right skills, certifications, and more. Spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Listeners of this show will get a$75 sponsored job credit at Indeed.com slash podcast. That's Indeed.com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need a hiring hero? This is a job for Indeed sponsored jobs.

43:17Yeah. What are they doing? Why are they interested in nuclear missiles? Is it for protection of ours? Is it that we destabilize some kind of interdimensional thing? Yeah. Because, you know, we're fucking with atoms. Did you get the sense? Yeah, right. We are. We're doing a lot. Genetics, atoms, biowarfare. So when you saw this thing, did you get the sense that it was moving in a predictable orbit? I mean, it's a static image, so you have no way of knowing. But did you get the sense that it was like moving in an orbit or that it was like just kind of maneuvering around? or well i've seen photos of leo low earth orbit stuff um and this looked to be maybe i mean i have no idea of the scale of this thing um but with the hemisphere it was way beyond low earth orbit okay but i don't know i mean you know there's a actually a wiki leaks uh email with john podesta on it that's been deleted from the internet but still if you go on the way back machine.

44:21I think there's some like Reddit forums that discuss this. Definitely a real email. And he is talking with kind of a contractor from some aerospace corporation, I think in California. And he mentions the contractor, I think the guy's name is Bob Fish, said they're having lunch together. And this is him recalling it in the email. And Fish says, yeah, we spotted some fast walkers today. And, um, they were, I think this was in specific reference to the DSP, the, uh, defense support program, which I think is this very deep geostationary kind of recon thing that the air force does. This was the air force at the time, because now space force would do it, you know, post 2019.

45:09But I wonder if you saw a fast walker because also if you, um, uh uh try to foya fast walkers which john greenwald did uh the space force gets back and says we you know clearly there are some records but we can't we can't talk about them yeah yeah wasn't there cia for you to do with fast walkers as well maybe maybe yeah it might be the cia actually might not even be space for it might be getting that wrong but yeah interesting so but i guess one question would be like was it lateral to the earth like was it moving yeah lateral to the earth because i think it wouldn't make sense to me if it was like vertical to the earth like if the if the butt was facing the earth i'd be like that doesn't feel like an orbit like it's in a predictable orbit you know what i mean it was definitely it was lateral 90 to the earth it was at 90 yeah so that yeah it is it's horizontal the horizontal i wasn't seeing it end on so you're right it was in a position to be rotating around possibly in orbit traveling past or just traveling past yeah yeah or yeah okay yeah so it wouldn't be it wasn't like going directly at the earth it was like moving laterally somewhat okay so interesting any other detail i guess you could you don't you don't know color right because it's silvery white i mean it was very i was in like i think two bit color okay but or maybe four bit but yeah it was very kind of blocky and there's definitely white silvery wine and did you see any sort of i guess i don't know how you'd see a shadow but like did you see any sort of no because this is so far out from earth yeah interesting what do you think photographed it very good question yeah now yeah so this takes me to um i referenced the disclosure project a lot because that was the root of a lot of my locations and research at the time.

47:08And one of their witnesses, I forget his name, he was DIA, and he got a lot of the information to do with the satellites. And he was the one that said most of these satellites are actually pointed outlets, and they're not like low Earth orbit communication satellites. So I assume if you've got very far out satellites looking outwards, you can also rotate them and look inwards. So that's the only thing I could think of. Okay. So that is fascinating. You see that. How are you feeling when you see that? Oh, man. I was ready to inform the press, tell the world, oh, my God, look, it's true. And NASA knows.

47:47And NASA has known for ages. And Donahoe was right. And for them, boom, disconnected. As it's loading. Yeah. So it hasn't even fully loaded. I saw like just under the bottom half of the ship. Yeah. And yeah, then disconnect. And you have no reason to lie about this. You've never made any money off of this, right? And if anything, you were kind of put on a witch trial. Like there's sort of this witch hunt for like 20 years where this like, you know, blanket extradition was attempted to be applied to you where they wanted to put you in prison for 60 years. So 70 for 70 years. Mr. McKinnon is accused of serious crimes.

48:29On his visit to the White House, David Cameron spoke to President Obama about the case and both agreed they could find an appropriate solution. We talked about the case of computer hacker Gary McKinnon, on which the Prime Minister has expressed very clear views. You said you would work together to find a solution. So have you found one? Well, on Mr McKinnon, we have proceeded through all the processes required under our extradition agreements. It is now in the hands of the British legal system. We have confidence in the British legal system coming to a just conclusion. And so we await resolution and we'll be respectful of that process.

49:16Well, we had talks and they said, look, if we just come along, don't fight it. You do between eight and 20. Like, that's a good deal. No, thank you. I'll fight it. And yeah, and that was actually horrible. It was very depressing. um i found out my own government because governments are made up of individuals and individuals have ties to other individuals in the doj and the cps some of them wanting me gone too just as a favor to the u.s not because of anything to do with right or wrong or truth or justice just as a favor political porn um so that was awful but not just for me my family you know your mom and dad and it's like oh weren't there some allegations of a meeting that was had at the american embassy out here where it was like we want his head or something like it was very extreme language used yeah ed gibson who was attache to the u.s embassy in london at the time met with my lawyer and he said we want to see him fry electric chair reference jesus christ she told me that karen amazing lawyer stopped with us all through this and fought and fought and fought yeah i was just i mean we already knew they played dirt because i mean people have to realize you You know, politics isn't about people being safe and well looked after.

50:30It's about the state, the furtherance of the state and its objectives and the protectors, the protection of your state to foreign states. Yeah, no, that is definitely the lay of the land as is national security. And, you know, I just find it interesting that, okay, you have guys like Snowden and Assange, where wherever you lie with them, which like whether you think they're courageous and ideological in a way that really, you know, exposed all sorts of, you know, issues with the intel world and mass surveillance and stuff, or whether you think they put like, you know, Americans abroad in danger or whatever, which I think there are like, there is some nuance there.

51:16Like I do think some people in the intel world who talk about this say, well, there's some real like bad effects around around the stuff in assange's defense he had lots of phone calls before releasing that information so he actually agreed it with people in the state department i didn't know that that's yeah well there you go yeah but but but i was just getting to the point of whatever you think of those cases like maybe there's some you know like uh more gray area or debate to be had or whatever in your case you're just you're smoking weed in your girlfriend's aunt's little flat and it's like 4am and you're just like a dude who's interested in ufos since you were a child and you want to figure it out and so i it's just like to me if it's the u.s like get your shit together it's that should be your you should be you know it's almost like they might have uh lashed out so much at you because they were embarrassed i mean that you literally like it's it's on you it's not on this like poor english citizen who has no clearly like i don't think you're like particularly ideologically set in like destroying america you know it's i've been there i loved it chicago yeah yeah yeah yeah so anyway well we'll get to that kind of more meta conversation but you also found some other pretty crazy things uh while you were while you were searching in your girlfriend's aunt's flat.

52:41And so, yeah, what else did you, what else did you find besides this tic-tac? I think, um, I was on a Navy system at the time. I can't remember cloud of weed, et cetera, but, um, there was a spreadsheet, Excel spreadsheet, and it was called, cause I was saying earlier about my search terms. It was UFOs, ET, terrestrial, anything, spacecraft, anything I could think of, which probably wouldn't be in the title of the document. But this spreadsheet was titled Non-Terrestrial Officers. So not on the Earth, which isn't necessarily alien. It could just mean space-based Marines or secret space force. And that was incredible.

53:22It had ship names, it had materiel, the military spelling, not materiel. and it was transfers of weird chemicals like melibdenum and other weird things that are hard to pronounce ship to ship transfers and fleet to fleet transfers and at the time i looked up the ship names thinking u.s navy must be boats nothing absolutely nothing what do you remember the names of the people no i remember i don't remember any of the names of the people but the long lists. I think it was just initial surname. I don't think they were first names. And the ship names, I was expecting like USS Lincoln or Navy ships, but there was none of that.

54:08Everything I, and it wasn't Google at the time. I think it was AltaVista, the biggest search engine at the time. None of it was seagoing vessels. So you see a list of non-terrestrial officers, and then you also see chemicals. What are the names of these chemicals? Yeah. Uh, melibdenum, um, barium, something was in there. They were very exotic. So, what does that imply? Do you remember the exact, so what is, what is melibdenum? Have you looked up what the uses are of this? Yeah. I remember melibdenum, I can't even say it now, melibdenum. Um, they're very exoticly used in like a magnetics, um, lots of very kind of exotic industrial processes.

54:58A lot, a lot to do with metal hardening, if I remember right, like metallurgy. Um, like you make an alloy and it makes it stronger than the original two components. So again, that time now, years later with the research you've done, the people you've interviewed, it's all making more sense especially when we come to the biofield brown stuff and dielectrics yeah we'll get to that and like nanodeposition of thin layer materials yes yeah thinly layered thinner than a human hair or whatever micron layered this one sample is engineered in layers thinner than microns through a process unknown on earth and for a purpose we can only guess Multi-layered bismuth and magnesium sample, bismuth layers less than a human hair, supposedly picked up in the crash retrieval of an advanced aerospace vehicle.

55:54Nowhere could we find any evidence that anybody ever made one of these. Okay, this is fascinating though. So you see a list of how many non-terrestrial officers? Oh man. Um, so my screen at the time was the old like 800 by 600 monitors. I think I might have had 1024 by 768 resolution at the time. So your typical Excel spreadsheet without zooming in when you just load it up was probably 24 lines. And I think there was about one and a half or two pages. So maybe like 30, 40 names. You don't remember any of the last names? No, sorry. You're killing me. I'm kidding. You gotta give us a little breadcrumb.

56:38Yeah. Yeah. This is one of the main like criticisms of me. Why didn't you take a bloody screenshot? Just alt print screen, alt print. But I did actually, I downloaded that Excel spreadsheet and when I got arrested, all my data was taken to ONI, Office of Naval Intelligence. So they still have my hard drives. I've tried to get them back for years. And they I said, no, it's still a long-going investigation. You can't touch it. Office of Naval Intelligence is the oldest intelligence agency in the U.S. I think it's 1882. And it's often deeply implicated in UFOs. 1882. 1882. So the National Security Act, which created the CIA, was 1947.

57:20And, you know, and then you had the OSS before that, which was kind of this wartime foreign intelligence effort. Yeah. But no, Office of Naval Intelligence well predates all of that. And you had Thomas Townsend Brown doing a lot of spooky science work for the Navy. And yeah. And then you have this guy, Harold Malmgren, who kind of ended up giving me kind of turned into kind of a deathbed confession at the end of his life. And it was wild. I mean, he was like, the Office of Naval Intelligence knows the most about this issue. and once you go in that door, the door shuts and you can't get let out.

57:57Well, he said, more than nothing. Naval intelligence are going to be around asking you questions about your study. They're going to get curious, and if they talk to you for any length of time, they'll say, holy shit, you really know a lot. They're going to offer you special access. It's how they operate. I said, what does that mean? you'll open the doors, you'll have full entry, the doors will shut, and you'll be no exit the rest of your life. That is a closed system. And he kind of implied that they approached him in certain cases, and because of the fact that it was this closed system, he didn't want to engage.

58:41Wow. So, very interesting. So they end up with your stuff. Yeah. Wow. Yeah, they were, when the British police at the time it was the NHTCU, National High-Tech Crime Unit in the UK. At first they said to me, oh, you'll get six months as the Computer Missuse Act, 1995 in Britain. Six months, community service, no time. And then they went to America and visited O &I and other top brass. And when they came back, the tone had totally changed. It was really serious. which of course eventually turned into facing 70 years in prison. So it was a huge, like using a hammer to crack a nut. It was, you know, David and Goliath, that whole thing.

59:26So wild. Yeah. Well, it's just, like you said earlier, I was just a guy, normal guy, interesting UFOs, happened to have some IT skills, a little bit of hacking, black passwords, nothing genius level. And then next thing, you know, it just blows up. I try to make an example of you. So when you think about those chemicals and, you know, we'll get into our mutual interest in Thomas Townsend Brown and anti-gravity experiments. When you need to build up your team to handle the growing chaos at work, use Indeed Sponsored Jobs. It gives your job post the boost it needs to be seen and helps reach people with the right skills, certifications and more.

1:00:03Spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Listeners of this show will get a$75 sponsored job credit at Indeed.com slash podcast. That's Indeed.com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need a hiring hero? This is a job for Indeed sponsored jobs. So you think that they could have been used to create special alloys or what you might call metamaterials and UFO world, which allow for greater thrust in these antigravity experiments? It's like one thing that is true about the Bifield-Brown effect and this anti-gravity experiment is that if you use an insulator in the middle that is considered a high-K dielectric, which means it stores and discharges easily a lot of electromagnetism, a lot of electricity.

1:00:52It stores electric fields in it specifically. The thrust you see in the experiment is much greater from the negative electrode to the positive electrode. So do you think that, you know, I guess barium is actually in Townsend Brown's documents? Like he talks about it all the time. Yeah, strontium titanate. Exactly. So, and then what was the other, I can never pronounce it. Molybdenum. Molybdenum. And you looked into that and that's for like creating alloys? Yeah, I think it's a strengthening alloy. It's been a long time since I looked into it, but I think that's what it was. It was like a strengthening alloy.

1:01:29Any other chemicals? It might have even had a shielding. Not gravitational shielding, but like radiation shielding or something. I think maybe similar to lead, but I'm not a physicist, so don't quote me. But it's super interesting if it's used on current space vehicles. People should go out and look that up, because if it is, that might be an interesting lead. Do some patent searches. Any other chemicals? I believe to man barium strontium strontium. Yeah. Strontium. And strontium is also mentioned in Brown's stuff, I believe, or can't remember any others. Okay. And, but isn't strontium, I believe is one of Gary Nolan's pieces that he has at the, you know, Stanford lab that he thinks might be UFO metamaterials that come from crashes.

1:02:19I believe has strontium in it. Yeah, it's a good dielectric. I forget it's K constant, but I know it's high. So it's also a high K dielectric. This is crazy. So you have a list of non-terrestrial officers. Yeah. And then what does the fleet to fleet thing mean? This was fleet to fleet transfers because it was a, it was one spreadsheet, but it had taps. So there was the officers names, there was ship names, and there was material, a material transfer. Do you remember the ship names? No. Okay. But what, okay. What, when you're looking at this, what is your instinct as to like, because there are all sorts of wild interpretations people have, you know, people make up the secret space program, solar ward and stuff.

1:03:09What was your, you're in the moment. What are you thinking when you see this? Well, that's exactly where I was. I imagine you were me, UFO guy, you know, quite an active interest. Um, and then finding this. And so obviously that's where my first thoughts go. So I'm thinking non-terrestrial officers, that's the baseline for the whole document. So they're not on earth, but I was thinking, well, they could be, they're probably, it's probably people. They're not non-terrestrial because they're not human, they're non-terrestrial because it's non-Earth-based, so it's out in space. So Space Force was my first thought.

1:03:46It's got to be a Space Force. Obviously secret. And then with the chemicals and stuff, and the ship names, and fleet-to-fleet transfers, there's more than one ship and then exotic materials. And so, you know, it's kind of two plus two equals four. Yeah. Obviously it's to do with my mindset. That's what I was looking for. So that's how I interpreted. Well, you know what I would do if I was office of Naval intelligence and I hated Gary McKinnon, you know what I would do? I'd make up some BS secret space program, call it solar warden, send people down the wrong trail when actually I do have real, you know, deep space fleets and transfers of these.

1:04:32And Shola Warden did come after me. Yeah, it did. So, but like, I'm still trying to get to the, so the trans, what do you think that fleet to fleet transfer of what? Of people? I think the materials. Because first you have the people, then you have the ships, then you had the chemicals. Okay. Metal elements. Okay. And do we think that the material is being transferred between humans? Do we don't think that the material is being transferred between extraterrestrials and humans, do we? Or do we think the material is being transferred between humans? I think, yeah, ship to ship. So I guess maybe this was kind of like a logistics train.

1:05:11Like a supply chain in space or something? Yeah. Yeah, just a basic, because the army's all about, or the navy or whoever, it's all about logistics. Right. And a lot of these materials, if they are layered extremely thinly and you have kind of atomic layer deposition style stuff we know that manufacturing in space and in zero g environments allows you so a lot of these materials they go it looks like it was built in zero g like this is so crazy no faults no so like maybe they built it in zero g and then they're like conflating it with the ufo stuff which actually just shows up around nukes and in other contexts or whatever but like they might have built it in zero g yeah yeah that's your cam's razor explanation isn't that's the simplest okay so there's like a space supply chain where humans are manufacturing these exotic materials in space that you literally couldn't uh yeah make physically impossible enough on earth yes yeah that's fascinating i don't think has anybody ever explicitly tied together your thing like this like we're doing now or this is fresh and unique i love this this is fascinating because if i mean that makes sense that makes sense like the other stuff doesn't make sense maybe sending people 20 and back into through the sun into a portal or the maybe that's possible i don't know yeah but super soldiers on mars no yeah super soldiers on mars i just we need more evidence if i'll entertain you know whatever but you need evidence you know you can't you can't just uh yeah i'm open to all stories yeah but this is fascinating okay so you it's like a space supply chain logistics, it's like a space factory, essentially, where they're creating these metamaterials that you can't make on Earth and you need deep space to create them.

1:06:54And then so the non-terrestrial officers would just be humans overseeing this supply chain, this space supply chain. This is really good because I never even saw it in that way before. Ah, this is fascinating. And what's ironic is they're probably making space travel that much easier by creating these high dielectrics, which involve greater thrust in the Bifield-Brown effect yeah so they're like making like you know their own program more powerful yeah with to fit this is fascinating wow wow all right i like that i like discovery as we go yeah i mean who knows but like that makes speculation it is speculation but it the idea that we have people in deep space or we have like literal alien like men in black style like aliens walking among us and then we put like navy suits on them commander suits on them they're like you're a non-terrestrial officer or whatever that makes less sense both of those make less sense just don't look at his huge armor-shaped eyes yeah yeah yeah yeah he'll crawl out of his skin suit occasionally but like you know it's like that we're stuck between those two options like that or you know it's like aliens in like you know military garb or uh you know uh uh you know literally humans that we've spent that we've sent into like super deep space or whatever i've never believed in any of the stories of um any in contact with governments i think it's just outlandish yeah no i think a lot of that stuff is pretty ridiculous it feels like passage material that like is meant to send people down the wrong trail or something yeah at least it doesn't feel like there's a ton of good evidence i do think there are a lot of weird abduction cases where people experience things you know and and you know, have you ever had anything like that or?

1:08:42I had one very strange experience that I can't explain to this day. Um, it was back in 2006. My girlfriend and I are in what we call a bed sit in the UK, tiny flat on the first floor, not the ground floor. And, uh, we'd gone to bed, we've gone to sleep and I was suddenly woken up by a really sharp pain in my left heel. And it felt like 2 or 3 a.m. Felt like I was in deep sleep. It had been a few hours. I'm like, what the hell is that? And I kind of leaned forward to check it out like something had bitten me. Then immediately I just went, oh, I was asleep again. In the morning, I woke up and weirdly, I don't know why, I'd gone to bed with my socks on or at least one sock on.

1:09:28And then I remembered what had happened during the night and I pulled the sock off and in my left heel, there were two perfectly circular holes, both about five millimeters in diameter. and one still had a flap of skin hanging off it, like a hole punch used for paper, but about this far apart. What? I know. And I thought, what the hell? I'm on the first floor. I was trying to think of every possible conventional explanation. Was it a rat with perfectly symmetrical five millimeter teeth had come to my bed and bit me in the night? But I'm on the first floor, you know, not the ground floor where like rodents could be.

1:10:05Um, no explanation whatsoever. Um, I can't say much more than that, cause, but I did, um, later as I got more into electronics, and electromagnetics, I did like scans and stuff. And then didn't come up. Couldn't find anything wrong, but a few years later I found out, cause this is something I'm always researching and looking for an answer cause I still haven't got one. There's a company, I don't know if it was Verisign, there was some chipping, like electronic chipping company. And their process was exactly like that. No way. Yeah, a double injection. Um, and then years later, I've got two bumps that formed where those holes were and then moved around and I still have those bumps on my hill today.

1:10:53Do you think a human did that? Do you think an alien did it? I'm thinking some kind of government tracking. Government tracking. which i feel ridiculous saying it well do you feel ridiculous saying because you had a 20 year you know yeah prime ministers were negotiating with american presidents on your behalf uh because the american government had it out for you so i don't think you know i think for a normal person being like you know they wanted to chip me or whatever like that might be a little paranoid but yeah i think in your case i'm not so sure man yeah but even so i wasn't running away you know I was on bail.

1:11:29Everything was safe. I was contained as they would put it. Uh, but yeah, I just can't explain that. It's just weird as hell. Interesting. And do you still have that in your foot? Still have the bumps. Can I see him? Yeah. I hope no one's got any foot fetishes or the opposite. Maybe you can start an OnlyFans after this. All right. Striptease time. I bet you've not done this before. this is wild are we ready yeah yeah so this company veritas i know i think it was very sign or something verisign i might have definitely began with a v but i can't remember and they do these little chip implants yeah so when i woke up with the holes they were kind of around here in the corner but now they've moved slightly so one's there it's a lesser Whoa.

1:12:24And the other one's there. The other one's big. Yeah. Like that's like very easy to spot. Yeah, and that's the other one. Okay. I think that's shrunk over time actually. Yeah, it feels smaller. Yeah. Whoa. Weird. The company Gary is talking about here isn't called VeriSign. It's called VeriChip. And yes, it's done work in human microchipping. In fact, the company has produced a tiny RFID microchip about the size of a grain of rice that implants under the skin, transmits a unique ID when scanned, and links to a database with personal or medical information. This chip is essentially a permanent tracking and identification tool.

1:13:07To think something so small can connect you to everything that matters. when your life and all you love are on the line. The chip was introduced to the market in 2002, just a few years before Gary's experience in 2005. And according to Gary, the company's double injection method would cause something that looks exactly like the two bumps on his foot. I'll let you decide if that's a coincidence or not. If you look a little deeper, Verichip's corporate lineage runs through applied digital solutions, and prospectus filings show that the implantable microchips themselves were ultimately sourced from a subsidiary of Raytheon.

1:13:51What we do saves lives. It protects peace and democracy throughout the world. Yes, that Raytheon, one of the largest defense contractors in the world, deeply embedded in military systems, missile guidance, radar, and classified electronics. By the end of the 2000s, Verachip themselves had secured the rights to technology that would allow the chips to detect viruses from inside the body, including strains like H1N1. The proposal described an implant that could determine whether a virus was present, what kind it was, and how serious the threat might be. At that point, the device would no longer just be identifying a person.

1:14:33It would be monitoring their unique physiology and biomedical data. Completely dystopian, to say the least. And even more dystopian, knowing that this tracking technology was likely used in retaliation on an ordinary citizen like Gary McKinnon. So if that were surgically removed, what do you think you would find? I don't know. Maybe two lumps of unanalysable material. I don't know. I didn't have so much good equipment back then, but now I have really good stuff for electromagnetic analysis, radio frequency analysis. And I'd rather do that first before having it removed. You should do all that.

1:15:13Yeah. You should do it like tomorrow. Okay. I'll ask my local doctor. I'm just saying, I'm just saying, you know, you don't want the names to go missing like in the non-terrestrial officers. Like you want it, You get like, do it now, you know? Yeah, yeah. Figure it out. So I joke, we're in between your implant experience and then this possible space supply chain for anti-gravity materials. And I don't know where to go. My head's exploding. But yeah, I mean, is there anything just going back to the materials thing and the fleet to fleet transfer? It's just so fascinating. And it's fascinating that you're into Townsend Brown too.

1:15:55Oh, man. It's like you have this like hermetic connection to this whole subject. Like you were meant to like see that or something like, like what do you do? Anything else as far as takeaways from that document, you know, and interpreting it because it was James Fox came out with the program and he, you know, did this great piece on you. But I think a lot of people do take what you found and run with it as far as just the people out there, like their interpretations of it when they see, you know, people discuss it. Yeah. So this is your interpretation that it's some sort of supply chain in space or something?

1:16:30Well, we stumbled on that together. Together, I guess. Yeah, I really connected it in that way that it was a supply chain. It just came to my mind while we were speaking. And in light of what we both know now, it does make sense in terms of potential propulsion, the materials that might be necessary for that as a dielectric. So it's pretty amazing. No, it makes total sense. There was a company called Made in Space that tried to do this for a while. There's now a probably more promising company called Varta Space, which does this. It's like factories in space. At the end of the day, you can think of the value proposition as this, is we can do special chemistry because we can essentially turn off gravity for the manufacturing engineer.

1:17:08And then often commercial companies are doing things that have already been done in classified settings. And so the stuff that was done in classified settings might have been this, you know, who knows? I mean, right now, I think it's like we have, that are known, like six people in space, like six astronauts, like on, you know, the ISS and on various space stations, you know, Chinese space station, they have an astronaut or two. So the idea that, how many officers were on this list? At least 40-ish. 40-ish. So maybe they're in space or maybe they were also, and maybe they were in orbit or maybe they were just managing this non-terrestrial, you know, kind of atomic layer deposition process or, you know, materials manufacturing or something.

1:17:57Yeah, I've always thought they weren't aliens. I thought this is bound to be, because it says non-terrestrial, obviously it's not extraterrestrial. So in other words, they're on a fleet that isn't based on Earth.

1:18:12When you need to build up your team to handle the growing chaos at work, use Indeed Sponsored Jobs. It gives your job post the boost it needs to be seen and helps reach people with the right skills, certifications and more. Spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Listeners of this show will get a$75 sponsored job credit at Indeed.com slash podcast. That's Indeed.com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need a hiring hero? This is a job for Indeed Sponsored Jobs. When we talk about a speculative secret space program, we should establish something clearly.

1:18:47There really was an uncontested, very real, and now declassified secret space program. The U.S. Air Force ran its own classified manned space effort alongside NASA's more public-facing ones. In the 1960s, while the world watched Saturn V rockets rise under the banner of Apollo, The Air Force was developing the Manned Orbiting Laboratory, a military space station designed for reconnaissance of America's enemies and other orbital operations. 17 military astronauts were selected. A modified Gemini capsule was built. Titan III rockets were assigned. Launches into polar orbit were planned from Vandenberg.

1:19:32And then, in June of 1969, exactly one month before the Apollo mission reached the moon for the first time, the manned orbiting laboratory was canceled. Advances in automated spy satellites made human observers redundant. Vietnam was draining resources, the Apollo program was imminent, so the classified space program was folded. But in defense culture, cancellation does not necessarily mean disappearance. Programs are restructured. Personnel are reassigned. Infrastructure is absorbed into deeper compartments. So what happened to the military astronaut program? Where did the classified orbital expertise go?

1:20:16And what was really going on with the classified space program? In 1993, former Lockheed Skunk Works director Ben Rich was speaking at a UCLA alumni event. Rich had overseen programs like the U-2, the SR-71, and the F-117, stealth aircraft that had lived in total secrecy before becoming public knowledge. At the end of his presentation, according to multiple attendees, Rich's final slide showed a black disc-shaped craft flying into space. He closed with the famous words, we now have the technology to take E.T. home. Was he just messing with the audience? Rich would end up dying just two years later.

1:21:01But towards the end of his life, he would privately say things that sounded very similar to this UCLA speech. Things about prodigious American space capabilities the public could barely dream of. Just before Ben Rich passed away, when I was talking to him, he told me, at the end of a 45-minute conversation, he said, Jim, we have things out in the desert, and he wasn't referring to Area 51. We have things out in the desert that is 50 years beyond what you can comprehend. I can comprehend a hell of a lot. And he said, if you've seen movies like Star Trek or Star Wars, we've been there, done that, or decided it wasn't worth the effort.

1:21:46Ben Rich's son, Michael Rich, was the president and CEO of RAND Corporation for decades. RAND was the Santa Monica-based, federally funded research and development center evaluating the prospects of Project Orion. nuclear pulse propulsion craft that could theoretically carry very large crews, reach Mars or outer planets, and enable long-duration missions. Not coincidentally, RAND has also conducted comprehensive research on the non-engineering side of deep space travel, crew psychology and isolation, life support logistics, radiation hazards, resupply challenges, cost and national priorities. Rand Corporation also happened to be intensely interested in the gravity-manipulating deep space propulsion work of Townsend Brown, his work going dark after he showed them a demo in 1967.

1:22:44President Ronald Reagan may have also inadvertently left a hint around secret American space capabilities in his diary entry from June 11, 1985. Lunch was with five top space scientists. It was fascinating. Space truly is the last frontier, and some of the developments there in astronomy, etc., are like science fiction, except they are real. I learned that our shuttle capacity is such we could orbit 300 people. You read that right. Not one shuttle crew, not a single mission. 300 people in Earth's orbit, in space. If you ask your favorite AI conversation agent, it'll tell you that we only have 10 or so people in space today.

1:23:31But we somehow had the capacity for 300 in the 80s? In 2020, Haim Eshed, former head of Israel's Defense Ministry's space directorate, essentially the father of the Israeli space program, publicly claimed that American astronauts and alien representatives were operating on underground bases on Mars. These bizarre hints have stacked up over the decades, and maybe they are mirrored in one of the most famous fictional versions of a secret space force, Stargate. With visible cooperation from the U.S. Air Force, the production of the show Stargate leaned on real-world military structures and culture.

1:24:12In fact, two sitting Air Force Chiefs of Staff, Michael E. Ryan and John P. Jumper appeared on the show as themselves. These guys literally ran the Air Force and were showing up for cameos on this show. The lead actor on the show, Richard Dean Anderson, was later made an honorary brigadier general in recognition of what the Air Force described as the program's positive portrayal of the service. The show's central premise? A classified off-world program run by the Air Force from a hidden command facility. Of course, the military connection might have just been due to some fans among the Air Force staff.

1:24:55Or maybe it was just another tiny hint towards something really big going on in secret. Strange stories of a parallel space program are apocryphal, but they are more abundant than you might think. Like this stunning revelation shared with Ross Coulthard on Chris Ramsey's Area 52. There was a conversation I had with someone who I trust, who got very emotional and described a friend of his dying on the moon. Wow. And I... What do you make of that? I didn't know what to make of it. It's important to remember that the public didn't even know the NRO, or National Reconnaissance Office, existed for decades.

1:25:44The parallel classified Air Force astronaut program wasn't fully declassified until 2015. So is it so crazy to think we might have experimented with covert human spaceflight and exotic material supply chains since then? The benefits of building materials in space cannot be understated. Matter in space, because of its lower-gravity environment, behaves in ways that are basically impossible on Earth. Without gravity, there's no convection, no settling, no buoyancy tearing materials apart as they form. Liquids stay perfectly mixed. Crystals grow with extraordinary purity. Optical fibers can be drawn with almost no internal flaws, potentially outperforming anything made on the ground.

1:26:31So it's also not that crazy to assume that we've experimented with this technology for extremely high-value metamaterials used at the highest levels of aerospace. Now, where would such a program be headquartered? NASA's Johnson Space Center in Houston is not only where McKinnon found UFO-related images and spreadsheets. It's the NASA complex that specifically focuses on human spaceflight. The notorious line, Houston, we have a problem, refers to mission control at Johnson Space Center in Houston. So if you were operating a manned spaceflight operation involving a material supply chain, that's exactly where you'd put it.

1:27:13I should be clear, too, like both of us aren't trying to fully pour cold water on UFO crashes. Like, I think. No, not at all. I think like I think Roswell happened. I think that Virginia happened in 1996. So it's always yes and in the UFO world. Like it's like all the, but I think intentional conflations also are systematically done by the intelligence world. And it's important to be able to parse through all of these things. Yeah. And of course it's human nature to super associate stuff with something you want to be true. So we can all fall down that hole as well. Yeah, no, of course. Well, I'm officially shocked.

1:27:51This is crazy. I mean, the Navy does do like the most exotic materials stuff as well. Like there's this place, Naval Surface Work for a crane that does this. Battelle Memorial Institute does a lot of exotic material stuff as well. And so, yeah, I really, I do wonder if, you know, yeah, some of this is human made. And then if you say it's of alien provenance, then it's this like perfect, you know, kind of black box where like people can interpret it however they want. and yeah it's a great shield isn't it good umbrella it is and then the fact that and what's wild is that like you're now experimenting with materials like you literally have materials in mind that make the byfield brown effect like you're interested in these anti-gravity experiments that involve some of these chemicals that and materials that you saw yeah which is wild yeah Yeah, well, yeah, since 2007, since I first read about Bifo Brown.

1:28:55How'd you read about it? How'd you come across it? I don't remember precisely, but - Because that's early. Yeah, it was undoubtedly researching UFO stuff. Yeah. Antigravity stuff specifically would have brought me to that. But yeah, what attracted me was the fact that you can do this in your home garage or shed or whatever. You don't have to be a scientist. You have to be a scientist to understand the mechanism, which no one has yet does. But you don't have to be a scientist to do it on the bench and try some experiments. Because a capacitor, two conductive plates, in between them sandwiched, an insulator, a dielectric that stores electric charge.

1:29:37So, you know, what's complicated about that? And if you read all the so-called research into the BB effect, none of it's exhaustive. None of it. It's all, oh, I did five kilovolts at DC. I did 10 kilovolts at AC. Obviously, Beulah went very far. There are a few people that went far, Army Research Laboratory. But no one's done a huge battery of tests with a multitude of dielectrics, a multitude of different plates, the mass of the plates, not just the material. Is it AC? Is it DC? Do you use a side wave? Do you use a ramp wave or a triangle wave or a sawtooth wave or how long is your pulse? What's your delay?

1:30:23There's quite a few parameters compared to a lot of stuff, but for a home experimenter, it's doable within a few hundred hours, I think. And I've probably done about 60 hours, all told. I've done thousands of hours of reading, but probably 60 hours experimentation wow wild oh so you've done 60 hours of running the actual experiment oh no no like like research into materials trying yeah i did try i mean i started off with lifters okay yeah try and get a baker foil and that was yeah it's interesting yeah but it's balsam wood and baker fall and there was there used to be uh a website called blaze lamps and um they had some really well-informed guys there, ex aerospace that knew all the like, um, aerodynamic mass and stuff.

1:31:11And they said, just like army research laboratory, they said, there's no way that this battered, you know, metal foil sheet, which isn't even perfectly smooth, like an airplane wing. There's no way that aerodynamically that can be pushed just by ion flow, just that way. Uh, ARL said it was like at least 10, 20 % above what could be achieved by ion flow. Which is exactly what Brown said. And so for the audience, Townsend Brown is this mid-century, very mysterious inventor who started with the Navy, then joined Martin Vega, which was, you know, pre-Lockheed Martin merger, you know, the year that Skunk Works formed, and then kind of popped up in all sorts of, you know, three-letter agency contexts and was, you know, shoulder to shoulder with elite American military brass, people like Curtis LeMay, you know, just this very mysterious figure who consistently claimed that he would get these positive results in these antigravity experiments, or what he called electrogravitics.

1:32:12There's even a video of him popping champagne from the Bonson lab at the Institute of Field Physics in North Carolina, which we know is the CIA outpost studying antigravity and literally convening all the best theoretical physicists on the question of gravity in 1957. And it was all sponsored by Wright Airfield, which is where all the UFO rumors come from. They were literally paying for this, you know, for a lot of this research. Yeah, weird connections. And so if you take what he claimed about his own experiments at face value, you'd have this crazy update against, you know, SpaceX and like chemical combustion.

1:32:50It would be this like total paradigm shifting thing. It's not a small deal. It's a really big deal. And the thing about Brown is we almost know, we know for a fact that he was one of the number one radar guys in the Navy. There's an FBI file from 1942 or three that basically says he knows more about radar than anybody in the Navy. And that's, that's number one. Number two, electrohydrodynamics, which is not electrogravitics. It's the manipulation of airflow with electric fields, which is how that the tinfoil, you know, balsa wood, you know, DIY foilers work and fly. But it's also what made it into the B2 stealth bomber.

1:33:33And I'm pretty sure I kind of have the receipts on that, too. So like that. So you have these two things where he's like the best, like EHD, you know, electrohydrodynamics and radar. And then he's claiming that he could also merge electromagnetism and gravity, which is the holy grail of physics. And so it's like, okay, so like he's right on two out of the three things, but he's a total quack on the third thing. And there's so much smoke around it. And then now you have the lead electrostatic scientist at NASA who could, is the global authority on being able to tell you that this experiment is only attributable to conventional electrostatics.

1:34:15And he's saying that, no, this is, it works. It works in a vacuum, so you can't do it with ionized air. Physics in its current form cannot explain this. And his own experiments, Charles Buehler, who you mentioned, are derivative of Townsend Brown's work. And so, like, I think there is so much smoke. There's a Japanese experiment that you mentioned, the Musha paper. Yeah, Musha Takeda. And they say that they get, you know, a successful result. In that case, I think they submerge the whole thing in transmission oil, which also you can't ionize transmission oil. Like, you know, that's not going to work.

1:34:55So, yeah. Are they coordinating with these people in the U.S.? Are they like some deep state thing in Japan? Like, I don't think so. You know, it's like this global thing. So, yeah, this is wild. So we were setting this up and I was talking to you on the phone and you were like, yeah, I'm super into Townsend Brown. I was like, what, this is going to be the best interview ever. Well, yeah, it's amazing. I really enjoyed your, I call it your Bifield Brown special. I don't know if that's what you. I'll take it. Yeah, let's call it the Bifield Brown special. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, well, thank you. Well, kudos to you for being into Townsend Brown in 2007 because The Man Who Mastered Gravity by Paul Shatzkin was this great biography.

1:35:35that only came out in like i think around the pandemic and he created he had this other version of it that wasn't really edited super neatly or concisely i think that might have come out in like 2009 or something and he kind of stepped away from the project but 2007 like you're talking about townsend brown being on the dark corners of the web like the like you gotta like you know that's where i used to live yeah it sounds sounds like it yeah man um and wasn't paul laviolette who first introduced the idea of the b2 using that yeah so here's where i think paul laviolette got wrong because he wrote this great history of anti-gravity and he talks about microwave beam propulsion alongside towns brown's byfield brown effect and you know he's a really brilliant guy he had his own theory called uh uh sub quantum kinetics oh yeah his whole yeah which was fascinating uh and he seems like just a brilliant brilliant i would have loved to have interviewed him he died a few years ago sadly he's dead yeah it sucks yeah no way i was in email contact with him i thought up until two years ago but obviously got that wrong and we were gonna have a i was gonna start a podcast oh and he was gonna be my first interview oh dude that would have been the best thing he had hip problems he was undergoing hip surgery or something so he oh man okay yeah yeah no it's a real bummer and uh but i think where he and it's an amazing book and everybody should read it but i do think he says that the b2 had like an anti-gravity drive and i don't think that's correct i think i thought he just said the leading edge it was like a capacitor but yeah so the leading edge was one plate and the trailing edge was another plate and yeah so so and i think he's i think he's right about that but i think that just manipulates the airflow like that just makes the airflow yeah it's like reduce the you know lift to drag ratio yeah it wasn't a full or increase increase the lift to drag ratio sorry yeah so it made it slightly faster yeah it makes it more aerodynamic and faster i mean maybe there's some real electro govitic thing happening but there's no there'd be no way to like fully say because it's happening not in a vacuum so like maybe there is something you know actually happening there that is you know it's top secret and it's super yeah it's top secret but i also don't know why they would necessarily declassify the b2 if it was using electro gravitics per se i will say there is a guy named william gunston who is the preeminent aerospace journalist in the uk um or was uh and you know as part of like the royal air society and has all these awards and stuff And for, I think it was like Air International magazine, he did like a history of, you know, aero engine tech since World War II.

1:38:21And then he gets to Townsend Brown and he goes, with Townsend Brown, like, you know, I will refrain from talking about, you know, leading edges charged to millions of volts positive followed by trailing edges charged to millions of volts negative because I don't want to end up in the Tower of London. and then he says that and then he caveats it a little bit more so like i don't know if that caveating is genuine you know unsureness of what he's saying in the tower of london which for the audience was a place of torture was a place of torture does he mean professionally or like as a whole like giving away secrets or if he's literally saying these are state secrets yeah and then i don't know if the caveats are like i don't want you know i really don't want to be implicated for having said this, so I'm going to sprinkle in some doubt or whatever.

1:39:06I don't know, but it's interesting. Yeah, I think so. Brussels clean up nicely at Sweetgreen. Maple glazed, roasted, and edges perfectly caramelized, Sweetgreen's fall harvest is back on the menu, and the season's most overlooked little green vegetable is dressed to be devoured. You know what to do. Order on the Sweetgreen app. but um so so you you are do you want to pull off one of these experiments or oh hell yeah um i'm planning it by april the latest i've been um distracted for a while and had to do other things i'm only doing these experiments in a 10 by 10 foot shed and um they're not expensive but they consume a lot of time.

1:39:53And I'm basically doing industrial processes in a garden shed. So it's a bit, I've got, but the first thing I bought, because you have to heat this stuff to a thousand degrees, the calcium copper titanate to a thousand degrees and then I had to buy a 10 ton hydraulic press. I bought a gas furnace and then because of the geometry and stuff that wasn't unusual so then I bought an electric furnace which is much smaller and you know easy to manipulate this tiny disc so cool it's only 40mm across I'm starting off very small so I've got to make that into what they call a green body make that solid I bought really high quality silver paste as the plates but then after that you have to think of when you've got these two plates at 30 kilovolts or more you get arcing currents, you get sparks basically.

1:40:51Um, so I have to find a way to stop that. And my first thought was to have very small discs on top of the 40 millimeter diameter, calcium copper titanate, the CCTO. Um, but there's other ways to do it as well. So I've got to, I've got to figure out a path and then completely, cause I really want to see it float. I want to stand there in my shed, turn the on switch on and see this thing rise. That would be amazing. If you made something levitate, you would kind of, the haters would have nothing to say. What do you say at that point? You say it's ionized? Video's not real these days. It could be AI.

1:41:28Yeah, sure. That's a good point. Would you do this in a vacuum chamber? Yeah, eventually. I do have one vacuum chamber. That's for my resonant. It only goes down to like minus 99 MPA or something. But I mean, Gravitech has done it in a vacuum chamber. but they used to contract for NASA. Who's Gravitech? Gravitech is under a different name now, but they've got, I can send you the videos. What's his name? Not Henry, Henrik something. I've had a few emails with him as well. Yeah, they've done it in a vacuum, a proper vacuum, like, you know, minus hundreds of tall. Shout out to Gravitech. I want to check them out.

1:42:08I've never heard of them. He's got a different company now, but I've got his email. I'll send you. Oh, please. Yeah, get him on, man. He'd be, he'd be glad to. I'd love to. And he now does stuff for satellites. I think like private satellites, uh, not using this. Actually, I don't even know enough to comment, but yeah, he's, he's done it in a vacuum. Interesting. And it is less, why wouldn't he pursue it? Like, you know, more substantively after that sounds like he just went straight to satellite. I think, yeah, I think he wants to be commercial, make money, do well for himself. Um, and probably maybe that's as far as he wants it to go.

1:42:40It works in a vacuum, but also you have like, uh, Jean-Louis Naudin, the French kind of YouTube scientist, I want to call him, because I don't know his credentials, for real. He's done it in vacuum tubes. He's isolated the electrode in vacuum tubes. But I don't know what the pressure was. This is, I mean, yeah, so you're right. There is this whole global community of DIY independent creators, aerospace professionals who in their private life just want to pursue this or UFO nuts or whatever outside of, you know, whatever they're doing. And, uh, most of them say that there's a, there, there are very few people that say there aren't a, there, there the ones that do, I believe there's, um, you know, an air for the guy, his last name is Tally and he's an air force guy.

1:43:29And I think he consistently uses very low voltage and tries to explain it away. And I even, I spoke to this one Navy scientist and he was like, Tally's just a bad actor. Like he's like brought on the scene like he's he's like this guy in ufo world named sean kirkpatrick who's the former aero director who's like brought on to like you know dismiss yeah yeah yeah so well you know um uh tim ventura or propulsion yeah i do yeah he's a good guy yeah he had that guy on that did um had similar effects with very low voltage like five kv five kilovolts i think it was buehler no or because buehler thinks it's the electric was yeah so this is the the nasa electrostatics lead.

1:44:09I get confused because there was a previous Beulah in my old documentation for like pre-2000s. Whoa. Unless that was his dad or maybe it was because he, maybe, what's he like mid fifties now? Maybe it was him. What in your old documentation? Yeah. Yeah. I've got documents with a Beulah and I didn't think it was him, but maybe it is. We'll have to, we didn't do that doc swap. We said we'd do a doc swap. Oh yeah. Yeah. Oh shit. Yeah. I'd love to. um yeah do you have like a lot of compiled information about this sort of stuff oh sweet cool yeah interesting zip file and in terms of free energy there's one thing um i found not i found but i found the guy that discovered it um so lenzy's law stops the motor rotating because of you know, the counter-magnetic force.

1:45:02If you look at the formula for that, the strong element of that is the inductance of the coil. And this guy found that if you increase the inductance, his name is Thane Hines, if you increase the inductance of the coil, then the rise time of the opposing magnetic field that slows the turning of the motor down when you're applying power to a load is delayed, just like delaying timing in a car engine. And he found that not only could he delay it enough to stop the CEEMF, counter-electric motor force dragging, creating electromagnetic drag. When it's past a certain point phase angle, it assisted the rotation.

1:45:46So your standard electric generator is a disc with magnets and underneath the coils. And he found that when the magnet is spinning around, it gets to what they call TDC, top dead center above the coil, with his method, because it delays that opposing, because when the magnet, let's say it's a north pole facing down, and it cuts into the coil, that creates a south pole in the coil that opposes the incoming movement of the magnet. and then when the magnet's moving out of the coil, it creates a north pole which accelerates it out. And he found that when you do this stupidly simple but incredibly effective time delay, the CEMF rises in such a way it's late on the income, so the magnet gets pulled in.

1:46:40And it's early on the outgoing, so the magnet gets pushed out, so it accelerates the incoming and the outgoing. And he took it to such an extent that eventually there's no opposition at all. And you could actually reverse, you're not reversing Lenzi's law, because that's an inaccurate physics statement, but you're reversing the effect of Lenzi's law. Yeah. And I did a small experiment, I'll send you the video. I did the most simple magnetic emoji you can. I had a cylinder-shaped magnet, which is diametrically magnetized, it's not north on top, south on the bottom, each curved half is the north and south poles.

1:47:16I had that in a vertical shaft rotating, and I show it with a normal generator coil, which when you attach it to a load, the power input needed increases to support the load, and the rotation slows down. Well, when I put his coil on, which has higher inductance, when you tell that coil to power a load, the rotation speed increases, and the input current goes down, the complete opposite of motor theory, motor generated theory. Whoa. That's the one and only thing I've seen and been able to replicate that works in terms of free energy. And this guy is now, he's got contracts with Siemens, Phillips with him, he's talking to China.

1:48:01It's about to blow up. Whoa. And I've been following him since about 2007 too on overunity.com, the first forum I saw him on. Fast, what's his name? Thane Hines. Where is he based? He's Canadian physicist. Mm. Yeah. dude you are deep down the rabbit hole of alternative propulsion and energy you've got to interview this guy i would love to he's like your general kind of crazy mad genius he's not so good at social interaction yeah but he's got it man it's typical of somebody who makes like real breakthroughs like that yeah you know for them to be not always like i think he's got a lot in his mind.

1:48:40I think he's got a lot on his mind as well. Yeah. It's fascinating. What do you think this chip in your foot, like, does it ever, like, burn or buzz or? No. Sometimes close. No. So there's nothing, basically you've gotten no incremental information on it outside of? Just a couple of lumps that have moved over time towards the inside of the arch of the foot. Strange. Yeah. Have you ever had a sort of, like, any sort of men in black experience or experience with you know strange men in suits showing up at your place or no but my lawyer had to office and her car robbed really which is obviously not men in black has more earthly powers um no nothing men in black did uh did okay so when when you hacked in to all of these sensitive American military sites.

1:49:37How did you get caught and what happened next? Oh, man. Yeah, I got lazy, got egotistical. I thought, oh, I can go anywhere I like, look at anything. And I started making direct connections instead of jumping through various IP addresses. So I was making direct connections to, you know, the target. And I was using, like, free AOL sign-up CDs. So I wasn't being at all like a professional hacker. I was just, yeah, I thought I could just do it. I thought, oh, these guys don't even know, don't even have passwords. They wouldn't even know I've been here. But yeah, eventually,

1:50:17obviously when that guy right-clicked the LAN icon and disconnected me, that was NASA. And they reported to BT, British Telecom, which is my internet service provider at the time, and said, who's this IP at this time? And they said, oh, sir. In fact, they didn't have my name at first. I don't know if my internet account was my girlfriend's name or if we were using her aunt's internet or something. But the horrible thing was when they came with the national high tech crime unit, they came to arrest me. The warrant was for the whole house. And they came early in the morning, arrested me, my girlfriend, my girlfriend's aunt's daughter, who was only like 12 or something at the time.

1:50:59So it was quite a horrible experience extended family and all my fault. And, um, why are they arrested 12 year old? Uh, what just to question sure. Not, not arrest on the, not to jail. Yeah. Yeah. That's still, uh, it must've been traumatic for, yeah. Cause they didn't know who the person was. They knew it was someone at that address. And, um, and unfortunately I, yeah, my ex-girlfriend's cousin, he, he was quite, um, um, and to thoriatarian, it was quite alternative mate. I think they thought it was him. Oh, it must be him. He's got purple hair. He must be the guy. Oh, so yeah, I'm laughing now, but it's horrible because it affected so many other people, you know, Mike's stupid curiosity, but James mentioned something about guys looking over you at your bed or something like, like at night or something.

1:51:47Oh no, that's probably when I was arrested. Cause I was arrested in my sleep. Wait, so you were rested in your sleep? Yeah, the National High Tech Crime Unit. I'd been up all night playing Galactic Civilizations 4, was up for some big space game, and probably smoking still as well, and gone to bed late, so I was asleep at 8 in the morning. My girlfriend was getting ready to go to work. Knock, knock, knock. She's in her dressing gown, they're patting her down and pushing her into a room. Then they come into my room. I'm in bed and I've got this car like, Gary McKinnon, I'm Jeff Donson from the National High Tech Crime Unit, you're under arrest for computer misuse.

1:52:23And then from that point onwards, the UK was like, okay, with more of kind of a slap on the wrist sort of thing. And then it was the US that was like, no, we need to extradite him now. And then you mentioned they changed the extradition laws to make it this sort of blanket thing that applied to you. Yeah, definitely. So when I was first arrested, um, the National High Tech Crime unit who were the arrested body said to me, you'll do six months inside, maybe community service, maybe no jail time. Uh, cause under UK law, all I did was unauthorized access. You know, I didn't break anything or steal anything or make money or anything like that.

1:53:05And, um, but then these officers went to America at the O and I, and I must say office of naval intelligence, cause there's another O and I there's an intelligence sister. I think investigation or something, but I don't know. Yeah. And, um, when they came back, they had a very heavy tone, a completely different tone about them. They were very impressed by meeting with the top brass in Washington and, um, yeah, oh, this, oh, this guy caused$5 ,000 of damage on every PC he was on, you know, which is just stupid. How do you damage the hardware? If you just do this like software hack that we're calling a hack, but you're using like off the shelf stuff.

1:53:43Yeah. It's like PC anywhere. Yeah. But I think what they call damage is the time it took them to take them offline. So the machines are unusable for a while, investigate them. So, you know. You know what? It feels like kind of white hack hacking to me. Because you didn't actually end up using any of the files in a way to hurt the U.S. Like, again, you can say what you will about Snowden or Assange or any of these guys. Like, there's nothing you did to, like, knock the U.S. down a leg as far as their tactical ability to, like, you know, do things. so it's almost like a white hat hack because the costs they incurred to take the stuff down and reset them they would have needed to do anyways that would have been, what if like a malicious person had like, you know penetrated all these servers that's what I'm saying so they're actually extremely lucky $5 ,000?

1:54:35where are you buying your PCs from? literally white hat hackers get paid so like I think they should pay you alright please send the email Yeah, I'm serious. It's like you literally you didn't do anything showing malintent. Once you got the info, they got the info back and then they reset. Ideally, their computer networking and architecture in a way that, you know, these sort of phishing attacks couldn't be done. These are basic things that you're using. Yeah. So I just, like, I think it's like insecure. It almost sounds like somebody in like middling bureaucracy who's trying to cover their ass.

1:55:14Like, this took us all this. Well, you should have done it before. Yeah. What are you doing? You're not doing your job. Yeah. Yeah. If it was some super sophisticated quantum error correction that you had figured out in 2000, that would be one thing. That would be like, okay. And then you used it in this sort of detrimental way to American national security. I decrypted NSA. Yeah, but otherwise, I mean, I don't know, man, that feels like a kind of crazy. Okay. So then what happens to the extradition laws? Oh, man. So yeah, the original extradition law, which I think was 1989, um, was a good basic law.

1:55:51We accuse this British citizen of having committed a crime in or against America. Uh, we have this evidence and it's a crime over here and it's a crime over there. so we should have him in America to stand trial. Totally fair, totally reasonable. But then, I mean, this is the weird thing in law, computer crime is a weird thing. It's a gray area because it's not physical. Where's your bum at the seat when you commit the crime? There's lots of questions that are legally intransigent, like how do you place this?

1:56:26So what happened was I was arrested in 2002 and in March. And then I was re-questioned by the NHTCU when to visit the DOJ in August. Then they came back. Then they re-interviewed me in November 2002. And that's when their tone had changed, very serious. You're accused of harming military systems that could be used in prison. And that's when, you know, things really got serious for me. I thought, my God, this is just blown out of all proportion. But we were protected by the extradition law, because there had to be evidence of malintent, etc. And when I did my police interview, I completely admitted to what I'd done, because it was all on the hard drive.

1:57:09I said, yeah, it's all on the hard drive. I went there and I got this document, went to another place, got other documents. So I was open about it, thinking, oh, six months, like they told me, I'll be fine. And they said community service, I can do both, I'll be fine. although i wouldn't have liked six months in prison but um when it came to november and then they threatened extradition then on paper it was 70 years in jail 70 years it was like 10 seven counts 10 years per count and i just i just went crazy i thought this is absolutely mad what are we going to do and um there was a lot of um like the ufo community in america wanted me to stand trial in America.

1:57:51It's like a martyr. Right. Yes, it'd be great. He'll come over. They'll open all the secrets and he'll make it after. But what America actually said, the DOJ said that I'd be tried under military order number one, which is Guantanamo status. Totally secret. No media interview. No media cover. No family visits. You know, me in an orange suit with my red hair. Joking, sorry. But yes, it went really scary, like really scary, like over the top, like, well, you know, Kafka, Kafkaesque, as many people said. Damn. Hey, you must've been, uh, you must've felt horrible. You must've been like the, the, you know, world's out to get me or the, the most, uh, powerful nation in the world, uh, you know, is out to get me.

1:58:39Yeah. And, uh, that, that must be a scary feeling. Yeah. Well, it started in late 2002. And by 2008, because we lost so many court cases and hearings, I'd given up all hope. And I thought, there's no way I'm going to give my fucking life to a foreign jail. And I bought potassium chloride, one of the three chemicals in the lethal injection. And I thought, if I get that decision, I'm just going to not inject it. I looked up how many grams per kilogram of body weight and I was just going to swallow it and have a heart attack and die. Since I came into office, the sole issue on which I have been required to make a decision is whether Mr.

1:59:17McKinnon's extradition to the United States would breach his human rights. After careful consideration of all of the relevant material, I have concluded that Mr. McKinnon's extradition would give rise to such a high risk of him ending his life that a decision to extradite would be incompatible with Mr. McKinnon's human rights. I have therefore withdrawn the extradition order against Mr. McKinnon. That was incredible. Teresa May. So yeah, it's heavy. That's heavy, man. That's really intense. And I'm sorry it got to that place. Because it's ridiculous. If you look at the fact pattern, it's just insane.

2:00:03And again, I'm saying that some of these other whistleblower cases, there are nuances to them. You know, I'm saying yours, I think it's an absolute witch. That's crazy. Yeah, I agree. It's just crazy. Yeah, I don't even know what to say. I'm so sorry. I mean, that's just awful. I'm sorry on behalf of my country. Well, you're not the government, Jesse. That's true. I don't have to forgive you. Okay. Well, yeah, it's just not a good representation. but um yeah well america's a great country and the people are great it's just um there's been some very bad governance since world war ii in my humble opinion yeah no and on this side of the pond as well the british as well sure yeah no and it's crazy that you were i mean gordon brown david cameron uh theresa may all these uk prime ministers were thinking about you you were this really important case because the ex you said that the extradition law was changed literally like right after you did what you did yeah this is one thing i didn't mention um we saw a draft of the new extradition treaty through our lawyers and it was written a british extradition treaty with america was written in american english which is kind of a clue as to who's calling the shots and American spelling in an English legal document.

2:01:26And also a lot of the phrases. They were almost verbatim taken from some of my charges. So I think it's not that there's anything special about me, but it was what I did. At that time, the American DOD systems were getting like 250 ,000 hacking attacks at the time, if you read the General Accounting Office documents at the time, and still to this day. so i think they needed to do something and they needed to increase the punishment and they needed a poster boy so timing is everything isn't it yeah because there had been big hackers before you right like what's the name of the guy who hacked into the doe department of energy and like atomic lab that's his bevan matthew bevan yeah and so this was like an actual hack on really sensitive stuff by kind of a more professional hacker is that safe to say or or also kind of it's like a vigilante yeah no i think he was more skilled than i was he didn't just do blank password hack he found you know weaknesses in protocols okay he was more advanced but um and yeah he was early he was in the 90s and then what happened to him he was basically slap on the wrist he did go through some shit don't get me wrong matthew if you're listening um but yeah he didn't face a long term there are a few of these cases before you where i think in a certain case it was like a hundred thousand computers ended up with malware you know who's yeah well i mean yeah if you want to know who's the most successful hacker it's not a person it's a virus yeah like the love love what's it i can't remember the name but i'm talking about specifically there's precedent for uk-based hackers hacking into u.s systems which yeah Neither of us are suggesting anyone do, you know, it's not, don't hack into, you know, national security stuff, you know, this is, this is a lesson.

2:03:24But in, in, in those cases, they did worse stuff than you. Yeah. And, and they just got slaps on the wrist. And then you're this like UFO interested, you know, you want to know if there's like free energy or whatever, like for your, for your own edification. Yeah. Like not because you want to do some like, you know, terrorist thing or like undermine, you know, American supremacy. in any way or whatever. And like, they just come after you. Yeah. And so they change the - Which tells you, yeah, what's important to them. Is it someone like cleverly stealing money in a cyber-fraud way, which a lot of people have done?

2:04:00Or is it some, is it UFO truth? Is it? Yeah, well, no, it might show that that actually, you know, hit a trigger point. Like the cigar-shaped Tic Tac object, you know, flying in deep space, you know that might be this really sensitive thing that they just really don't want to talk about then the non-trade the space supply chain thing i could see that you know they don't want to talk about that either but as a counterpoint to that that information was already out donna haire's the shirt was out so it's kind of if it's already out why go so heavy on this guy as a counterpoint to that like there's proof that you got into these sites donna here it's always going to be this kind of like single sample size and if one story told and you can always be like that person was crazy yeah but like when your case like they have like a you know there's a live arrest warrant out on you now right you can't go to the u.s now i'm on the interpol reg list you're on the interpol reg list that's crazy um i don't even think i knew that hopefully i'm good but um yeah like like you know with with i think in your case there's no arguing with the fact that you got into these sensitive sites so the fact that you're saying you saw a tic-tac you know in deep space but above earth and then you saw these non-terrestrial maybe 40 some odd officers like you know that's that's like pretty it's like a little deeper you know yeah yeah but like to the point that like you shouldn't be blamed it's like you didn't sign something you didn't you didn't like sign up to like you weren't like working at one of these places you were like high in your i'm trying to think how i would manage that if i was intel i was like how have we managed this guy and then i think they were probably quite happy when i got diagnosed with aspergers in 2008 2009 okay he's mentally ill he's fine then right right right like a put away i would put him in the mentally ill drawer do you ever think like the the chip is somehow either monitoring you you a or b it's like feeding you ideas or anything you start glitching right now yeah yeah do you ever think it has some sort of i don't know uh no my mind feels the same as it always has okay but i do want to do some further scanning with my more modern nothing you should yeah yeah so interesting i wish doctor what was his name the guy that used to scan implants he's dead now roger lear roger lear yeah i wish he was around could come to the uk yeah he'd be the perfect guy yeah i might know of somebody else who can help you out so later yeah exactly explain what's going on quickly i can't turn my phone off here look look Yeah, let's document all of this.

2:06:47You can see my finger is on the power button and both This is like a hard reset, but my fingers on the power button and volume up and volume down at the same time And nothing nothing that's never happened before Absolutely, it's never happened before. It's insane, but you're with Gary McKinnon and I'm with Gary McKinnon who has a live arrest for it. A lot of people famously said, I didn't do it. This was the, you know, everything I'd hoped it would be, this conversation. It was so fun. And I really hope you pull off this Byfield Brown effect. I think it would be this beautiful kind of, I don't know, vindication.

2:07:30You know, I'm not saying what you did was fine, but I think you were completely persecuted in this horrible way. And I love the fact that, by the way, the UK rallied behind you and you ended up, you know, singing with, you know, David Gilmour, you know, the lead singer, the Pink Floyd, you know, and like, you have all these people, you're like kind of this people's champion. Crosby, Stills and Nash, man, one of my favorite hippie bands from when I was young. Wait, what did Crosby, Stills and Nash? Yeah. They were like rallying behind you as well? Yeah, they did. They just like mentioned me in one song at one of their gigs, but you know, thousands of people.

2:08:03I didn't know that. Yeah. So cool. You've seen all these bands I'd love when I was little. I was like, God, it was crazy because you're really depressed, but you're seeing all your musical heroes vouching for you. But you're also, didn't you sing with David Gilmour? Yeah, and Chrissy Hynde and Bob Geldof, but I didn't actually, I only sang in the same studio at the same time with Chrissy Hynde, so I didn't get to meet David Gilmour or Bob Geldof, unfortunately. Well, Wild, thank you, Theresa May, for making the right decision and, you know, letting you go. and I think the US should drop their arrest warrant.

2:08:38I think so too, that I could go on holiday. Yeah, so you can go on a nice vacation and hopefully next time I see you, it's in the States. Yeah, that'd be fantastic. It'd be great. Thanks for a great interview, mate. Absolutely, Gary. No, it was an honor. It was a lot of fun. And yeah, hopefully, I think we made a little bit of progress here too in terms of piecing some things together. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, logistics, supply chain. Exactly. Sweet. All right.

2:09:10Alchemist, did you enjoy that? If you want the full picture, head over to the American Alchemy magazine we just launched on Substack. That's where we deep dive into all sorts of crazy topics that we don't have time to fit into every video, with weekly articles exploring all of the strange, forgotten, and conspiratorial corners of space, history, and high weirdness. So join up today at our free or paid tiers on Substack. I am including the full link in the description of this video.

2:10:02Fall Harvest Menu is back with seasonal favorites dressed to impress and made to be devoured. Warm roasted sweet potatoes, crisp apples, maple glazed Brussels, and crave-worthy flavors in the autumn harvest bowl, maple glazed salmon plate, and roasted bacon Brussels side. The season's most desirable menu has returned to Sweetgreen, featuring fall's best dressed. Make your move. Order on the Sweetgreen app.