“The NSA Hired Me To Speak To Aliens!” -Sergeant Dan Sherman

33:24Is there like a follow up here? Am I supposed to? I mean, when you're told this, it's it's you're you're being. Your your mind is being bombarded with such a a radical situation that you don't. Well, and also in the context of being a military, too, we have military protocol that, you know, we don't ask a lot of questions in the military. You know, you're being told what to do and then you do it. You're actually trained not to ask questions or not to give any type of pushback or anything. You just, yep. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. That's what we're going to do. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. So in that context, it doesn't, I mean, it may seem like somebody, you know, Joe Blow may seem like, well, if I was told that I'd be all up in arms.

34:12What's going on? But you don't, you don't think like that when you're an airman or a, you know, a sergeant, you just think, okay, this is the mission and we're, we're going to go forward. Does he say anything about the purpose of Project Preserve Destiny and why intuitive communicators are needed in the first place? Yeah. He said that it was due to some future event. And again, he said, this is what I've been told. So it wasn't like he's just a conduit for whatever he's being told. So there are levels of need to know access and compartmentalization. And so he told me that there would be some future event where the ability to intuitively communicate would help the military and help, you know, command and control and all that.

35:02He didn't get into details on it, but he just said that because, I mean, the training itself was centered around communicating stuff like that, like logistics and things like that. So he was setting me up for what type of communications would I be trained for. And then he said, it's for a future thing that we know is going to happen. And you're going to be one of the communicating aspects of that future event. You'll be allowed or you'll be relied upon to do that. Was it like a cataclysmic event? He didn't say anything. He didn't say anything about the nature of it at all. But there was some need to have these intuitive communicators on a go forward basis.

35:52The future event thing, he said in the future and maybe even the event that that word event, maybe that was something that I put in there. I don't actually recall, but but that was my impression that there would be some event in the future that that would be needed. So what happens next? We went to the school. He took me in a van to the school. And it could have been me coming back to the facility and then meeting him again. Don't really remember, though. But we took a van from the facility. It was a blue, unmarked van that had black windows. It drove to the school that I would be having the instruction at and couldn't see where we were going at all.

36:40And that was part of the secrecy of it, obviously, is I didn't know where the school was. And so we went, got out in a garage or room of some, it wasn't really, I don't know what it was. It was just, it was an interior of a cement building. I don't know if it was a garage or a part of an annex of a building, but it was just cement all around us. and the blue van parked and we got out and 10, about 10, 20, 15 feet in front of the van doors that we got out was a door. It had a palm reader, I believe, and it might've had a retina scanner. I know the interior one had a retina scanner. We opened the door, went into a vestibule.

37:31that was the door to the elevator we got in the elevator after doing the hand scan again i think it was the opposite hand the next time and then um went down i could feel it was going down obviously there was only one button in the elevator that was it just start basically um the doors opened on the other side of the elevator and we went into a room it had two consoles in it two computer consoles and a table in the middle and he told me you know the kind of logistics of the the van would pick me up at my hotel i would go through elant school and then um i think they gave me like the half hour 45 minutes i can't remember exactly the time but a short while after i got um back from the elant school they would pick me up in the the blue van would be right there in front of the in the pickup area of the holiday inn and um i would get in the van and he would drive me to the school and i would do exactly what we just did which is get out of the van go to the door i might all my information would be in the scanners and uh just go down and go to my console and put on the headphones and sit there and that would be my that would be my task every every time and what are they telling you to do when you're sitting there with headphones on.

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40:45and what are they telling you to do when you're sitting there with with headphones on well it the instructor was through the headphones he just said put on the headphones and you'll you'll be told what to do um when we after you put the headphones on through the headphones and so and he told me also there would be some pills that i would take so he showed me the pills and And he said, they'd be right here on the table. And he told me also that there would be another student in the school at the same time. That's why there were two consuls. And he said, you're never to speak with each other. Not even a grunt, nothing.

41:24Just you both come to your, your consul is going to be this one. And that's it. No talking. um and i did finally see that guy and we came about the same time never at the exact same time but around the same time and um never said a word to one another took the medicine or uh he told me about the medicine where it would be um it was very cut and dry i mean there wasn't a lot to it we just had to get in the van and come here and do exactly what we just did and so you basically had no idea where you were going in the van. No. And you're in this extremely nondescript building. You just see the inside.

42:07Well, I assume it was a building. I mean, I don't know if we went down. It almost sounds like maybe it's underground. Yeah. Well, I know the school, the consoles were, I'm positive of that. Yeah. But, well, I guess maybe not positive because we could have gone up into a building and then gone down. Who knows? But we did go down, so I assume it's underground. and I don't I think the building was ground level too because I don't remember going up any you know inclines or down or any of that so it was ground level meaning that the school was probably underground the school itself was under a building that was on ground and I believe also you're talking about the intense secrecy uh the captain who you call Captain White in the book who briefed you initially said you're not to speak about this with anybody unless they're involved in project preserved.

42:57Yeah, that's right. There would, he told me there would be a pass off. So, um, or an introduction or I can't remember the terminology is, but somebody would be, he would introduce me to somebody when I needed to do it in the future. If I went to another, or when I went to another base. So he was my contact for there. And then I would get another contact at another location and whatever location I was at, I would always be introduced by the previous uh contacts so i would never have any need to go up to somebody and say are you or none of that yeah yeah it would always be like a le carré uh book or something it's like a spy thriller it's like you'll be greeted by a man and yeah yeah at this telephone booth or so so yeah okay so this is very close and it was a telephone at one introduction really yeah it's like meet at a telephone booth or something no it was uh i got a call a public telephone booth well it wasn't public it was the dorm the dorm that i was living in okay at the first base that i went to i was living in a dorm and there was a like a a dorm phone so in the hallway and so somebody came in and said um you have a phone call and so fascinating and so that he told me and that was Captain White and he told me that the name of the next person and that I would meet them at such and such time and he would have his arms folded in front of the facility and that's who it was.

44:29That his arms? Yeah so I mean I know that's probably silly but but he did say that that that he would have his arms and he was the only person there so it wasn't like I was gonna mistake him for one of the other million people that were in front of you. But maybe that was somewhat of a signal to just confirm that that was the right contact. Okay, so you're back at this initial Project Preserve Destiny school, and this is in Maryland. It's presumably near the NSA complex where you get briefed. Yeah, yeah. And you're underground, you have your headphones on. What instructions do you get through the headphones?

45:05So initially, it was a very, very rudimentary. there were um led boxes in the on the computer screen in front of me and uh they were green and it was like a sine wave it was like this um like a it's a typical i don't know if people know what a sine wave is but it looks like a sideways s yeah yeah exactly with a with a green line going through the middle and so i would have 10 of those boxes in front of me on the computer screen and he said for now initially anyway he said i i just want you i'm going to play a tone and i want you to mentally hum that tone don't autobolize it just mentally do it don't don't use your vocal chords in any way shape or form just mentally hum that that note or that yeah that note and And so that's what I did for days, a few days at least.

46:02And it was torture. It was basically torture. Just listening to one tone and mentally and humming it. How many hours? I can't remember, but it was probably a couple days. And each class was like three, four hours in the afternoon, evening, early. That sounds like Chinese water torture. Yeah, it does. It's excruciating. I would definitely ascribe that term. Were you allowed to take breaks? I did get breaks like 10 minutes every hour, just like your normal work break type thing. Because I think in the book you say you couldn't go to the bathroom during the blocks. No, I could not go to the bathroom, which was a problem sometimes.

46:46I don't think I ever did anything in my pants, but it was close. And I also was also very paranoid about going, you know, before going, I would always, you know, be on the toilet, like, you know, definitely before I went because I definitely did not want to have a problem. And I think that's a young person's game, too, because now I'd be like, no, no, no. I got to have a break. I got to have a bathroom. Anyway, so it was a mentally hummed tone. And then he told me to concentrate on the first box while I was doing it. So I would look for, like he said, look for movement in the box, on the sine wave of the first box.

47:32And so I would look at that box and just stare at that box and mentally hum the tone. And he said that you will eventually feel a connection between your mental and your visual. You'll feel a connection that is represented in the box. so the the line will change with your your your this thing that you're doing with your mind which is a mental hum um and so when i i say in the book that it clicked and that that's kind of the only thing that i could really put human language to it wasn't an audible click or it wasn't like a you know physical click but but it it it's like when you're uh focusing a camera that you know it's really out of focus and you're turning and turning and you go you know it just focused right on it and that's what it felt like with the visual and the the mental aspect of looking at the box when i saw the the sine wave move it it is like it came into focus this thing that I was doing in my head.

48:56And then I could assign that what I just did. I could assign that to what I was doing visually or seeing visually. And I went, oh, okay, well, I was excited. Of course, I nearly jumped out of my seat when I first did it. I couldn't believe it. Because at this point, I was like, really seriously giving up. I was like, this is bullshit. This is not going to happen. And so when it did happen, it was pretty exciting. Well, you must be thinking, too, before the clicking happened, that this isn't how physics works, right? Like in your head, you grow up in the U.S. learning or in anywhere learning that there's some sort of hard separation between mind and matter.

49:40And you can hum as much as you want internally to try to match or resonate with some external tone you're hearing. But the idea that that, you know, tone is represented on a screen and you could somehow affect that representation with your mind to most people would be beyond the pale. I did. I did for a short period of time think that maybe there was a connection between the headphones and and the computer. Some sort of electromagnetic. Because, well, because the headphones weren't wireless. They had a wire and it went into the cabinet. And so, you know, I did, I mean, I gave that a lot of thought, like, you know, but that, of course, was proved wrong later on because I didn't have headphones later on when I was doing the actual communication.

50:26So, but yes, you're right. There's a disconnect. There's a, there's a mental disconnect there that that's not supposed to be happening. This is not, this is not possible to happen. So yeah, it was definitely interesting. So when you say it clicked and I realized that's the best way you can sort of describe it. Yeah. Do you then sense, oh my God, this sort of, you know, wave that's going, the sine wave, I now have mental control over it. Is that the feeling you get? Yeah, yeah. It was, well, and it was, I couldn't really do anything with it because I didn't really know what to do with it. But I could definitely affect the motion and I could do it just at will.

51:11Like I could, at first the sine wave was like this and it would go like this. You know, the two lobes of the sine wave would go like this in harmony with one another. that was the clicking um aspect and then later on i mean the the whole thing would just like this you know when you're actually doing when you're practicing the the visual and audio um feedback you know that it was giving me i would i would do the communications or whatever the the ic aspect of what i was doing it would it would actually do this with the sine waves so So at some point I just didn't even pay attention to the sine wave.

51:53I was just, I was just doing the, what he was telling me to do. I see is intuitive communication. And so you're, you're, you're seeing it almost like ripple or like, you know, oscillate different. That's so fascinating. Yeah. And then, okay. So you like walk in, you have this like connection between you and the sine wave. And then are you, do you have a goal? Are you trying to like get the sine wave to do something? Yeah. Yeah, he was just telling me, we did the first sine wave, and then he would feed another note, and I would have to concentrate on the second sine wave, and then the third sine wave, until I got all of them to click.

52:28And that was kind of the overriding goal. And then they started to feed me numbers and describing things. And what I was interpreting when I was doing the boxes, it would start to, I could associate certain concepts and numbers and colors and letters and things like that with the actual boxes and the different movements of the sine waves. So it was intuitive in the sense that, because it really was intuitive in that when I started unlocking all these things, it became intuitively aware in my mind how to do that stuff. So I intuitively knew how to do it. That's why I think they call it intuitive communication, because once your mind was unlocked with that ability, it intuitively did that.

53:26Yeah. intuitively was able to communicate whatever it needed to communicate. So you have a bunch of boxes with sine waves in them, and then you're somehow associating the movements of the sine waves. The clicking was the only really thing that I was associating. That was the tool by which we could do the clicking, or, you know, to unlock that particular tone and that ability to intuitively communicate at that, whatever they called it. I don't even know what they called it at whatever levels those were. To me, it was just a note. But to whoever was teaching me, it could have been another attribution.

54:04You know, somehow it meant something to them, but it didn't mean to me. Is the tone that you're listening to changing at all? Yeah. It is. The tones were different notes for each box. Okay, got it. So it was 10 notes. I don't know what notes they were, but they were 10 notes. And did the sine wave change based on the notes? uh no it was just the clicking the sine wave itself would would move based on that i had 10 boxes one was one note one was another note one was another note one was another for the clicking aspect and then my mind was picking up on um when when they would feed me information like a description of something, my mind would think in those terms and feedback something.

54:55Now, I don't know what that feedback was because they were monitoring that on the other side. They were trying to see whether it fit whatever it was supposed to fit in those boxes. My aspect of it was very one-sided. I was just there to unlock what was going on in my head. And we did that through the clicking but then the feet the feeding of the the information and stuff was my ability they were testing my ability as my mind's ability to to convey that in these in this type of language or communication or whatever you want to call it and so it really didn't come all together until i actually started the communications with the with the the aliens it was it was unlocked I could tell it was unlocked, obviously, because I was moving boxes and stuff.

55:48The box didn't mean anything to me at some point after I clicked with all of them. But the communications itself was when I really realized, oh, this is how it works. This is why it is what it is, why we're doing this. So you have 10 boxes, each of which represent a note, so to speak. For the clicking, yeah. You have sine waves within each box and you're trying to lock in or click into each box and you end up getting them all and sort of interfacing with all of that. But once they started feeding me information and I was supposed to intuitively communicate that back into wherever it was going or wherever it was going, then I would see boxes just going, you know, just doing all kinds of stuff.

56:38But I didn't correlate that with anything. They were just moving. presumably and maybe this is taking a leap here they are uh kind of pattern matching signals that you're emitting by thinking of certain things so you have a certain semantic thought like a school bus or something and then they get a certain pattern yeah and then they're doing some pattern matching right i think presumably i think the the pattern or the um this was just an the the 10 boxes were just a manifestation of what was going on but i don't think they were actually using the boxes they had their own way but it was just allowing me to see it kind of gave me confidence or whatever it was kind of a visual for me so it's feedback for you that you were locked into the sine waves yeah exactly but they had something on the back end or that's matching yeah symbolic concepts that you're thinking of yeah in this plane that is being unlocked in this plane that's being unlocked yeah fascinating so like you think of like a car and like they're they have some sort of signals presumably that they're going and the intuitive communications um i would i would think like i think now just like you think but i would do it in this kind of level of the brain that was was doing what was doing here with that mental humming yeah that that unlocked something in my brain that was allowing it to be on that level or playing or whatever you want to call it instead of talking you know through the vocal cords and or even thinking yeah thinking is a level of intuitive or a it's an abstract it's an aspect of of the way our minds work but this was a different um a different uh modality i'm not exactly sure what word to put it to it but but and it was unlocked through that that well it almost feels like they were attempting to read a level of your thoughts that exist below symbolic abstract you know interpretation or above yeah or above but i yeah i would think maybe below like because yeah well i don't know but like you know if you have like language is very kind of high level and symbolic ultimately and you're locking on to these sine wave frequencies i would assume you know if you have in computer science you have the bit layer and then you have a higher level symbolic languages and then you have like abstract representations of you know you have icons on your computer screen ultimately and stuff like that um i would think that language is more like the icons in your computer screens on your computer screens and then there's probably some lower level of thought like some memetic thing of you know you know thinking of forms and shapes and that sort of thing and this is like another way to transmit that well the way i kind of um thought about it as as the years went on and i you know would think about stuff like this um in eland we had a carrier wave you know which was the power of the of the transmission but then it was it was um encoded encoded isn't the word but i'll use that encoded the the information is encoded on that power wave So the, the, our ability to communicate, talk and think that's a power wave.

1:00:06And then I, I put this, the IC ability as a different way to encode information on that power wave. And it, and, but it's still the power that's emanating from our being, you know, we're alive and we have power. We have, we have energy emanating from us and we are the carrier wave, but. the encoding of information is done through our vocal cords and through our eyes and through our mind, but this was a higher level of encoding of that energy. Interesting. That's kind of how I've thought about it over the years. I feel like we're saying the same thing. Yeah, probably. You're told that you need to be taking pills every day you're doing this?

1:00:52Yeah. It's two pills, is that right? Yeah, and initially it was two pills in the school. um what do they taste like um they didn't have any taste did you ask hey why do you i did ask and you know as usual it was like well that's just what we have to do okay i wasn't told why and and it wasn't like it wasn't it wasn't a one-for-one type of situation too because sometimes i would forget to take it there was there were a few days when i would come back and go oh man i didn't take that i forgot to take those um and i've i've at later on i was i think it was one pill that i had to take later on and sometimes i'd forget to take that too so it wasn't like it was take pill could do it didn't take pill couldn't do it it wasn't like that i think it was just i think they were just experimenting with it sure some sort of maybe intuitive communicator supplement so to speak i don't know but i mean they're presumably parts of the brain that enhance this stuff and ones that yeah hurt it maybe or impede it um and that part of the goal for you was like flattening the sine wave right so it's getting the sine wave to basically the amplitude to lower into the the sort of center of the box yeah and that and that was just um a a concentration exercise i think on the on the actual note because i would i first i clicked it and so that was the clicking it would move and then um i was um instructed to move it further you know to move that note but do it further and so that was the feedback i was getting the visual feedback i could kind of correlate it with what I was doing in my mind.

1:02:43And so I could get a stronger, a more focused maybe of that note. And I only say note because at some point the note went away and I could just, I just did that box. But. So that's like the note was almost priming you for a particular box. Yeah. And then I didn't need the note. It was just that box was in my mind. Because you had the internal humming going on. Yeah, well, again, that was only to unlock that.

1:03:15Yeah.

1:03:42on it until you get stronger and stronger in that box. This is so wild, though, because it implies that the NSA has this whole protocol, this whole like other language that they've developed, which, you know, in cryptography or whatever, maybe they have in some sense on the computer science layer. But this is like a human intuitive psychic language that the NSA has proprietary access to. But I don't think the NSA, I think they administer it. But I don't think they, unless you have an alien and an IC person doing it, I don't think... none of them can do it or got it or at least at the time maybe now they do i don't i don't know but um but that's even crazier right because that's almost implying that aliens coordinated with them to give humans the conventions through which like you could even lock on to this stuff like like aliens were deeply involved in this program or something they had to be yeah yeah Yeah, yeah.

1:04:38It's either that or they have this like insane sort of psychic conventional language that they've created, like the NSA. I mean, it's one or the other. I don't know if, because I think it's a biological thing. So anything biological would have to, I mean, I guess it could be engineered at some point, you know, with the technology that we have today. Sure. It could be engineered. Neuralink has a patent on psychic communication, on telepathic communications. But that's like now, right? We're like looking into that. And I do believe the narrative that things have existed in the black and then they sometimes are exfiltrated or they're like cover private companies that are actually far behind what's in the black.

1:05:17That's fine. And there's an actual aspect of that in the story, too, with the white van. That's right. I guess we'll get over that. Well, why don't we now? So you're taken to this facility in this kind of, you know, nondescript blue van and then you see a second. I saw headlights one time or lights in the building that were not there typically. And so I was like, what's going on? So I looked over to the left and I could see lights shining on the wall that was in front of the blue van, but over a little bit further to over on the other side of the van. So I was obviously curious. And so I went, I didn't want to go into the front of the van because it's a driver.

1:05:57you know i for some reason this driver had this missed mythical monster um imagery in my head because i could never talk to him i never knew who it was so i didn't want to get in his bad side so i went to the back of the van and i looked around and i saw the bumper of a white van it was a white van on on the other side of the blue van and that's what was had the headlights on and and as soon as i got back there he honked his horn the blue van honked his horn i was like okay never mind i'm going to my door thank you i don't don't eat me or do whatever you're going to do and so i i saw that white van and um later on i don't know how much later um days maybe i i was taking an exit to get to the hotel in maryland there and um i was turning right and i saw a white van turning left at that exit and i was and i thought there's no possible way this could be the same van and but you know it's in the area and you know who knows right so i but then i remembered I remembered um I actually when I saw the van I remembered it not only then but I remembered it when I saw the van I was like that has a dent it was an identifying feature and so I looked at it I looked at the white van that I saw at the exit and sure enough it had that same exact uh dent so my I was like what do I do what do I do do I do I um I had to follow it I mean there's just no possible way.

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1:08:59And I went to a company called Noise Cancellation Technology, NCT. That's the name of the company, NCT. I believe they went by the initials. And I was like, okay, well, there's some sort of interesting little correlation there. More corroboration for Dan Sherman's story exists around this company he followed this mysterious second van into, NCT, or Noise Cancellation Technologies. Noise Cancellation Technologies Incorporated is on record having had multiple contracts with government and military organizations. In June of 1991, the Washington Post reported that Noise Cancellation Technologies Incorporated in Linthicum, Maryland, won a$210 ,000 contract from DARPA, or the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency for Research and Development.

1:09:57Well, 1991 was exactly when Dan Sherman was getting trained as an intuitive communicator by Project Preserve Destiny, and Linthicum, Maryland is right by where he was stationed getting trained by the NSA. All of this was also a very short drive to Fort Meade, where the government historically has run its psychic spy program. But I'm sure all of these are just coincidences. Noise cancellation technology's military ties run even deeper. The company is referenced in an Office of Naval Research bulletin about acoustics research in Europe, and they've been publicly involved in further NASA and Army-funded research.

1:10:33According to the company's own website, NCT is a leading technology company dedicated to the development and commercialization of active wave management applications. The electronic manipulation of sound signal waves to reduce noise, improve signal-to-noise ratios, and enhance sound quality. All sounds like stuff that could be pretty relevant to what a young Sergeant Dan Sherman was doing for the NSA. Very interesting. Yeah, yeah. Because he was in the same garage. Now, you know, I don't know what the exact correlation is. Well, it makes total sense. You're wearing headphones. They're doing something with kind of exotic communications, it's not one that you are making up.

1:11:17There's corroboration of them working with the government in other contexts outside of this possible NSA collaboration. Well, and they could be also doing a black project that's covering a great project. So it's, I mean, there's high likelihood that that's true because I saw, I mean, I correlated the two. Yeah. And you even talked about, you've hypothesized that exotic propulsion might involve noise cancellation in some way. I mean, there are all sorts of things that, you know, electromagnetic energy is, it's an amazing phenomenon. I agree. It's funny. In and around the whole alien UFO space, you get a lot of like Lockheed Martin executives, like saying weird things like all you need is Maxwell's or Maxwell's equations and you change a thing or two and you're all good.

1:12:03Like implying that general relativity, Einstein, even, you know, quantum mechanics in some ways, are like way less important than Maxwell, which governs all of electromagnetism for things like exotic propulsion. So yeah, it's very powerful. And yeah, there are even, there are fields of like extended electrodynamics. I don't know if you've ever heard of extended electrodynamics. Is that something that's ever come across? It is. I've heard of it. Yeah. So it's this idea that, you know, obviously in traditional electromagnetism, you have a transverse hertzian wave so you have you know um a b field an e field electric field a magnetic field which are perpendicular to one another and then perpendicular um as well as wave propagation and that's like pretty much all you can do right but that limits you like for under c communications uh you get electrons pairing off because of the presence of magnetic field you know obviously deep space communications are going to be hard it's going to decay at one over r squared and And this is this idea that actually this Navy whistleblower came out on my show that's described a couple of how Puthoff has patents in this area and extended electrodynamics.

1:13:15That there are exotic wave types in what's called a scalar field where wave propagation might occur at one over R instead of one over R squared. So they attenuate way less over long distances in space time. Without increasing power? Without, what's that? Without increasing power. And so it would unlock all sorts of crazy things, if true. And Hal Puthoff's this really interesting character in all of this because he obviously ran the CIA's psychic spy program. And I've asked him point blank, do you think psychic communication is occurring along the lines of this extended electrodynamics where you have patents?

1:13:56And he said to me, yeah, I do think that's the case. Isn't that fascinating? I find that so interesting. And he's using these Josephson Junction, you know, quantum receivers, basically, to so it's these, you know, vector and scalar potentials in the subquantum field that are doing the communications. So this is absolutely mind blowing. And it makes sense, right? Because like, you look at the early Stargate experiments, you look at the stuff, you know, we're going to get into with you. they would put remote viewers you know in submarines and put them at the bottom of the ocean and they would have the exact same you know all this stuff seems to be agnostic of both space and time they'd get the exact same results and efficacy when it came to remote viewing and so it would make sense that you'd have some exotic electromagnetic communication ability that yeah yeah that's mind-boggling okay so you're you're at this school and you're going every day and you're in this van and you've tracked down this other van.

1:15:01Are you still, whatever happened to electronics intelligence school, the Air Force continuing education thing that you were supposed to do? Well, I had to do that during the day. Okay. I was doing that for, you know, seven, eight hours. And then I would come back to the hotel and have a little break and then I'd get picked up again by the van. Did anybody say, hey, Dan, you want to, you know, go out tonight, grab a drink or something? Oh, yeah, oh, yeah. What would you have to say? I was the loner. You know, I was always the one that was, no, no, I'm good. i'm a little tired yeah yeah and i i did get asked um several times they would they would ask me where are you going because you're you're not in your room and your car is here where are you going and i always had some sort of excuse like i met a girl or you know we went out and you know i she drove and that's true of anybody that's in tight these types of things is it doesn't comport with reality with with your real life so you have to create this alternative universe sometimes where you have to exist in that universe too with other people and like nobody at any of my my bases they they didn't know what was going on either and i mean i can't remember specific examples but i'm sure that i had to come up with some bs when something didn't exactly gel with what was supposed to be going on, like in the van.

1:16:27So that is just the life of somebody who is in that type of situation. And you were given a code, right, for Project Preserve Destiny? Like you had a code name or something? Oh, Staunch. Yeah, Staunch 118. Staunch 118. Yeah. Okay. And that was on the computer screen. When I would open up the dialog box, I would have to choose Staunch 118. And so how long does your schooling last and what happens? I think it was three months. Okay. Yeah, I believe that. And no alien direct communication during the schooling? You're just told to flatten these weights? Okay. And so what happens next? I go back to my base that I was stationed at the time and just went back to my ELINT job doing stuff.

1:17:16And then I'm not exactly sure how long it was, but several months went by and I finally got orders, um, to my first PPD base, which was overseas. And, um, and then I went to that, that base and I was there for, uh, again, my security clearances weren't there yet. So I was kind of in this limbo state. Um, and they finally came And then I got a phone call, like we mentioned earlier. Somebody knocked on my door and said, somebody wants you on the dorm phone. It was outdoors, too. It was in a warm climate. And so there were outdoor hallways. And so I would have to go around the building, and the phone was on the outside there.

1:18:11And so anyway, picked it up, and it was Captain White, my first contact officer. And he said, you're going to be, he told me the name of the, my, uh, next contact, which happened to be my unit commander. Um, and which kind of makes sense because I think he was the only captain there in our vision or in our little area. And so, um, he told me his name and, and, and that he'll be crossing his arms. I already knew who he was. I don't know why this was all so cloak and dagger, because all he had to say was, it's your unit commander. You can just go talk to him. Anyway, they did all the crossing arms and stuff.

1:18:55And so he told me when to meet him and he'll be out front. And so I went and at that time and did it, met him. And he took me into the facility. um we the facility that i worked it was a a base that was kind of had one mission but we had this like little detachment that was part of the base it was on base but we had our own little security system fences the whole nine yards and because it was way more classified than anything going on in the base and so um it has its own guard check and its own requirements to go through and all that and its own security systems in the buildings and all so we went in he brought me into a conference room and i was there with um another person that was from my base that the other base we just so happened that we got assigned there together and we were going through the same indoctrination for our job and all that and so he was there too and um and a couple other people too and so we were being indoctrinated into the into the program into the black project that we were in and um and then as i recall i think heat uh captain took me aside somebody they they took other people for a tour of the facility and the captain said i'm going to take dan and so that's when he brought me into um well we talked in the conference room first and he told me you know we talked about the the the program and and um just you know small talk about the program you went to school and oh great you got certified and and you're gonna be an intuitive communicator and that cool you know just had this little banter and and and then he took me into the one of the uh we call them the c vans there c is for communication but you don't have to have a communication in the c van it's just a c van that's what they call them and so um we had several c vans on site and one was our particular part of the black project and so he took me in there it's a two-person van for security reasons there always has to be two people in the van at all times other than a little bit of bathroom break here and there um and um he i asked about the the other aspect of my job the black project he said don't worry about that you'll be other people will talk to you about that i'm going to talk to you about the gray project and so he showed me how to open the the screen and i already knew how to do all this from the the previous time but he maybe thought i didn't i don't know or he didn't know that it was the same system but he showed me how to bring up the box the communications box and um just went over the logistics of it you know how i would be with this other guy but we couldn't intermingle as far as you know he didn't know about this and we had what was called left seat and right seat seemed like you know for pilots you know they had the left seat and the right seat we had that too the left seat was the different aspect of the black job black project job and mine the right seat was another aspect of the black project but then also mine was a great project and then my computer i had that thing that i could open up the dial-up box and he said I asked him, you know, when is it going to start?

1:22:37Do you know when I'm going to start communicating? Or, you know, he knew nothing. He's like, all I know is this is your box. This is your van. That's crazy. And that's all I know. So you're sitting across from a guy who's doing normal classified electronics intelligence. You're sitting next to a guy who's doing traditional, conventional electronics intelligence work. And I was too. And you were as well. But then you had this other thing that you're doing around intuitive communication. And that guy has no idea what you're doing. No, no. And the guy who's briefing you, who presumably Captain White told you about, he knows very little in some ways.

1:23:17Like he's giving you. He's just the administrator. He doesn't know. Did you ever try to kind of cross check? Because I'm sure along the way you're trying to suss this project out, you know, throughout. Not the time. Okay. Yeah, you were just taking orders. Yeah, exactly. Did you ever try? And you have to remember also, this is before the internet. Before, you know, you're just isolated, basically. You're intellectually isolated. You're just following orders and that's it. You know, today I could just get on Google and go, you know, do all kinds of research about stuff. But I couldn't back then.

1:23:53Did you ever try to just see if this other, you know, Air Force officer or captain who's dealing with PPD at this or Project Preserve Destiny at this overseas base, if his answers coincided with what you were told initially by Captain White to see, you know, could kind of cross check. Well, they were all coincided. They did. Yeah. Everything was the same. OK. Yeah. So it wasn't like, because, yeah, if I were you, I'd be like, well, maybe I am getting hazed and I'd try to poke and like ask person B the same questions I asked person A and see if their answers were the same. My intentions were not as devious as that.

1:24:31Fair enough. I just was wide eyed and bushy tailed. That's all. Sure, sure. I was just following orders. But from your experience, the answers were mostly the same. It felt very coherent. Yeah, definitely. I mean, and they knew so very little that it was very easy to be coherent because there was not much to it, you know. And this is actually I think you said in the book, this guy's name was Sergeant Larson. Is that right? No, it was a captain. I think the Larson was a sergeant. He was in the room with us, but he wasn't involved with. But I believe I believe from your book, you asked Sergeant Larson some questions about the secrecy.

1:25:10and he went into the Onion stuff, but he didn't say the gray-black. He didn't talk about the gray-black thing. During our black introduction, he went into the Onion thing. Which to me is interesting because it was like he was holding back the idea that the gray projects are concealed within the black projects. He didn't know. Okay, interesting. Yeah, he only went up to the black project because he probably got at some point a speech about onion, the onion aspect, but only to the black layer, so to speak. Because in your book, you're thinking like, you know, I know something you don't know or something.

1:25:48Interesting. That's true. Okay. So you are sitting at this sort of terminal. Does it look basically the same as, you know, the NSA complex that you were in? I can't remember, but they, I think they all had about the same. Like the basic. Yeah. These big sun or spark. I think they're spark monitors. that we had. Yeah. I don't even know the brand spark yet. Yeah, it was, back then, you know, monitors were this big and wide, you know, big, and the screen was only about that big. So when we had these big spark monitors, everybody's like, you know, anybody that looked at it and not familiar was like, wow, you got the Cadillac here.

1:26:31What's going on here? You guys, your budget's high. so yeah we had these spark i think they were called spark i think that was the name sun spark something like that and so you put your headphones on you take the pills same thing yep um no no no headphones no headphones yeah we didn't have headphones in that in the van okay um uh but you know i had a mouse and and the and the monitor and yeah i took the pills he he told me that he had a bottle of pills he said um you have to take these i said yeah we took I took those in school too. And he says, I said two, right? And he goes, no, just one. Take one.

1:27:09I was like, oh, okay. Well, it was two before. Yeah. Okay. So I'll take one now. And we had these little, each compartment had storage units. And we would share these seats with other people. I mean, we were the only shift. We were one shift, but then another shift would come in. So we had our own little cubby, so to speak, for each person. And I would just keep a pillow center. okay and so you are in this van is that's your workstation now and you take the pills and then what are you told to do he didn't tell me to do anything he said it's just going to come when it comes and and it's going to start when it starts that's it that's all the direction i got i was like uh do what um is there any should i expect anything is there any timing on this this is i I have no idea.

1:28:01You're just, I'm here to tell you how to facilitate what you're supposed to do. And that's it. So it took a while. It took, I can't remember how long, but it was a while later that the first con came. And that's when the ball started rolling, so to speak. And when you say the first comms came, you weren't just receiving basically thoughts? Yep. I would receive, I think the first communication was something like prepare for receiving or prepare for something, prepare for communication. And that would be the thing that would kick off. My attention would go towards that. Did those thoughts have a different quality from your own thoughts?

1:28:53Yeah. Yeah, it was within a, it's really, really, really hard. It was an area of my brain. And when you think, you don't think of an area. Like, you know, when, let's say you're thinking about, you know, the mic stand. And you can't correlate where that is in your head that you're thinking that. I mean, you don't know where the snaps are going. But with the IC communication, you can feel it in your brain. You can feel. Now, you can't localize it. It's not a localization. But I can feel like it's in that area of my brain right there. Whoa. And it's like a colorful tapestry. and you have, you can focus on this over here, or you can focus right here, you can focus right here, you can focus over here, but it's focused wherever that tickle comes from, you focus right there.

1:30:01Okay, that's where it's coming from. And then that stops and you go, okay, there's something over here. So I focus on that. And so when the first communication would come in, in my mind's eye, so to speak, the tapestry came up. And I was like, okay, this is where I'm communicating right now. I'm communicating this tapestry. That's the only way I can really vocalize the visualization. Do you remember which parts of your brain? No, no, there was. I couldn't localize it, you know, but I could tell that it's in a certain area. Whoa. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So somehow more of a discrete area than the general.

1:30:41I felt it. It's more of a feel than it is a scene, but you could feel that it's coming from a certain area. Did it feel more foreign than your thought? Like, did your thoughts feel like yours and these thoughts felt like others? Yeah, it felt like it was external from the kind of, when compared to your own thoughts. Yeah. It wasn't external. It didn't feel, it didn't really feel external. It was here, I know. But compared to your own thoughts, it feels very foreign and very different. So what happens next? So I started getting communications, started receiving them. I'd pop up the window and I would start typing whatever I was interpreting it, receiving.

1:31:22And at first it was just numbers. It was an idea. Well, I would get a preamble, like the 101.8. and this is where i'm really showing my how long ago this was but it was like that and then i think there was like a um a five digit or six digit or something like that number after the 118 and i never really knew what that was but it was something i called it the zip code because it looked like a zip code but it wasn't it wasn't a zip code um and then i would do slashes after each um focus you know of where in the tapestry i'd go again and so i'd put a slash and then i put the whatever it was and it was just numbers just initially so you were almost picturing a canvas and like words coming on no no it wasn't no it like when you say slash how are you you're seeing this no no um when i would receive the communication and i'm i'm this is me um putting this into words but it's not necessarily exactly this but this is the best way i can convey it there's this area in my brain or in my thoughts and it's like a tapestry that has a lot of depth and it has it can be very colorful i think that's just my interpretation of of what's going on i think the colors would be different for other people but it's just it has color to it and so i would see in my mind's eye i would see that there's a communication right in this area of that overall tapestry so to speak and then i would look at that i mean i would concentrate on it I would focus on that.

1:33:22And that would be a communication. And it could be an image, it could be a number, it could be a feeling, a smell, it could be anything. It could be whatever we can convey in communication. Like I could make a smell here and I can communicate that to you. Well, that smell would be communicated to you. And I could do that in that too. I could I could actually, although I don't think I ever did, but I think I could actually get a smell through that. I could get any type of communication through it. So I would look at that, focus on that, and then I would convey that, and then I would put a slash, and then another area would come into focus, and I would focus on that, and then put that communication down, put a slash, and then another area would come up, and I would put a slash.

1:34:12So I would get these different communications through these different focuses. Yeah. And when you say put a slash, are you on the computer? On the computer. Yeah, I would type the computer. So you'd think and then you'd type. I would receive and type it, whatever it was that was in that little area of the communication. Okay. And then I would put a slash when that was over or done or went on to another one. And so they were concepts that were in different bites, so to speak. So as soon as you comprehended a particular concept, you'd put a slash and then you'd get another communication. But I would see it, not visually, but I would know that was there.

1:34:56I could feel it in another area and I would concentrate on that and I could get that. And were you thinking in words or were you thinking in concept when you were receiving? Yeah, I would have to, because we're humans. You'd have to translate it immediately. Well, it wasn't so much a translation. Like, would it come through in words? Yeah, it would come through in that. Okay. It would come through in that whatever it was that I was reporting. Yeah. Like, in that area, I would see the numbers. I would see 4, 5, 7, 8, 2, and I would type that. And then later on when I started getting visual stuff, I would see like a little, like one time I saw a missile being launched.

1:35:46It wasn't a missile, it was a rocket. And I could see around the payload area, I could see the seams like it had blown up. I could actually see that in my, in that tapestry, so to speak. And so I would, I would describe that. I mean, like rocket blowing up. And I mean, you could get into a higher or lower level of detail, depending on how much time you had to type. And, but, and, and the visual wasn't there for long either. It would just come and I would see it. And then it would, it would fade out. Did you try to correlate the thoughts or messages you were receiving with real events? So like that rocket blowing up, you know, I mean, that's hard to do on the internet.

1:36:36I did. There was a, it was in the news, I think. There was a Chinese launch of a rocket that had blown up. I don't remember whether I correlated it with that or not, but I remember looking that up and seeing that. But I don't remember if it was the same one that I received. That you received. Yeah. Because in your book you say, like, Arianne, like, you know, certain company launches, you felt like you were tapping into the actual rockets launching. Which is fascinating. Well, I think it was just whoever's got their fingers on the pulse of whatever is going on here. I think it was their way of testing my ability to convey different types of messages, you know, different genres, so to speak.

1:37:28Yeah. And and it could have been, you know, they were testing my ability to describe what was going on in a in a military type of functioning or the, you know, mechanical and in all the stuff that went along what I saw. you know did i describe was it white or would i describe the length of it or what would i actually describe when given that message and so kind of testing and i'm sure everybody else who was doing a they was an ic in the system was getting the same types of things so that you can see who is better at what or this is what i was thinking later on when i thought about this is that it could have been like testing who is able to do what.

1:38:15At what point do you start speaking with aliens? That was it. That was during that time. That was coming from an alien. And does that alien reveal itself as having a personality? Yeah. The first one, he was, I sensed a very logical structure. And, and, um, I look back on it now, I don't think I really, um, kind of, I didn't put it in the best words back when I wrote the book, but I, but I look on it now and I think it was the, um, I did say in the book that I think I said that he was very logical. It was very, um, more structured. The communication was a little bit more structured and it wasn't as, you know, that tapestry that I talked about.

1:39:09It wasn't as, um, his wasn't as, um, um, abstract or yeah, it was much more. I wish I had more experiences of more aliens so I could see the differences because I only saw two. and the and spock the first one he was um his tapestry and again i just say tapestry because i don't know how to explain it but um his fog so to speak or whatever was very um very linear yeah it was uh in my mind's eye it was very straight like this his communications were in a straight line like the the one area would have one piece of communication and then it would be right here and then it'd be right here and then be right here and then it'd be right here right so it was very straight and does he introduce himself or you call him small no okay so i guess i have to explain that uh um the reason why i know i never got a name from him or anything like that but his communications were very logical and so my friend and i were we were star trek fans and i just thought it was funny just to to refer to him as spock and and i wasn't referring to him to anybody else so the joke was lost on on the world yeah until i wrote my book but did you address him directly when you're sending messages back did you address him as spock or no no no no I never said that.

1:40:46I don't even know if he would know who Spock was. We don't even know. Maybe we don't even know it's a he. Well, I guess no, but I did sense that it was a male energy. And what is Spock saying to you? Well, it was all very, very number oriented. It wasn't until I got to my second base that I started getting the imagery type stuff. But the first was very Spock. Well, okay, so at the end of my time at the first base, I was doing a communication. I was receiving something. And the only reason that I would communicate back to him is like, can you repeat that? Or can you say that again or do that again?

1:41:41And there was no real back and forth. But I went into, and this is the hardest thing to explain, I think. And I say plain, but it was, I wanted to ask him a question. So I was really hesitant to do that. I wanted to start asking questions. And I was trying to get up the courage to break from the formality of our communications so that I could ask a question. And I really didn't know how to do that intuitively. I didn't know what the protocol would be for that. I was receiving stuff, and I could actually convey messages back as far as feedback and stuff. but I didn't know what the formality would be to have an informal conversation or to ask something that had nothing to do with our communication.

1:42:40So I think it was because I was so anxious or charged about it that I asked him a question, but then it was the weirdest thing because it went into another, I say plane, but I can't really explain. It was a different tapestry, let's just say that way. You know, the tapestry that I keep on alluding to, it was a, like a, you know how I said you can focus further away and then closer, you know, like the lens that I told you about the camera? Yeah, yeah. This one was, like a like a macro like it came came closer to me and it was and it was different it was different than the the um tapestry that i keep talking about anyway so i asked him a question in this plane and i didn't and it shocked me when i did that it because when i asked the question i was just asking it in the other realm so to speak but when i did that it came up closer again closer isn't a proximity but it was just my my way of explaining the visual of it in my head um and and so i asked the question and then i also shocked myself because i was like that's a different i i said that differently it went out differently yeah and then he i sensed he was also shocked like i didn't realize that you could do that I can't remember the exact communication, but, um, and so I, I asked questions and honestly, I can't remember a lot of the questions I asked.

1:44:28I, I, I'm. What was the, so you have this different plane of communication initially when you're communicating with Spock, he's just giving you like strings of numbers, like things that don't mean much to you or. Yeah. Well, I mean, none of it. Well, until we got to the imagery part, none of it really meant anything to me. So it was like you were just relaying this information to the NSA. But you didn't really know what you were relaying. Yeah, exactly. But then when I asked a question, and again, I can't remember what the question was, but he seemed shocked. And I said, am I allowed to speak like this in this realm?

1:45:15or I can't remember how I said it, but like at this level. And he said, yeah, it's fine. And we just didn't realize that you could, and I'm paraphrasing, of course, my thoughts, but we just didn't realize that you could do that. And I was like, oh, okay. So is this okay? And he goes, yeah, it's fine. But he didn't want to, again, he didn't want to chat though. I mean, it wasn't a, I don't think it was, in the purview of the program to chat with these people, or these humans. It was just the testing that was going on. But I was able to ask the questions I wrote in the book. I had some questions and overall impressions of what I got from those questions.

1:46:00What are some of those questions that you asked? Well, like the, how did they get here? How do they travel? And about time, because I've always been interested in time. I asked him about going back and forward in time. And he said, you can't really go back and forward in time because time is a relative thing. So you don't know if you're going back, then what are you coming back from? There's no solid moment in time that you can measure from to go back and forward from. But he said, you can go around time. And I didn't really understand when he was telling me that. I was not understanding what he was saying by saying that.

1:46:42I mean, there wasn't any, it wasn't a thesis written out so that I can analyze it. He just gave me the impression that you can go around time. And I think that's how they do their travel too, is they use time, but in a way that we really can't, we don't really understand. could be like in a higher dimensional space or something i mean this is all you know total speculation but like maybe you know you think about the fourth dimension of time or time as humans know it and it is this linear you know permanently progressing thing you get in the river you know that's the kind of metaphor you know and and you can't get out you know but if you had a higher dimensional you know temporal dimension or something you might be able to you know, jump in and out or so like, think about actually like a, like a tesseract, you know, and the tesseract is, is, is, is, uh, curling around or whatever.

1:47:39It's like kind of like a sine wave or like a snake or something. Um, and you think of that as, you know, it's 3d, 3d, uh, uh, you know, inside of it or whatever. So you have like North, South, East, West, above sea level, below sea level. So you have three degrees of motion. And, um, you know, if you were to, you could hop from this part of the coil to this part of the coil or whatever and that would be actually like a very short distance if you had some higher abstraction of time yeah but it wouldn't if that was all you had right and that's where the wormholes come in where you come one one aspect of the temporal to the next aspect of the temporal so you can travel between the two Yeah.

1:48:19Yeah. It's I didn't really I didn't understand it. And I just kind of. It was my understanding of my rudimentary level of communication, you know, of knowing knowledge and time and all that. That's where I I distilled it to that. He said around time, but he could have meant something different, too. I don't know. Well, John Wheeler, famous Princeton physicist, thought that there might be Wheeler tunnels everywhere, which are basically little wormholes or black holes. Nobody knows what happens beyond the event horizon of the black hole. And so, and then obviously time and gravity have this really important connection and you get these super dense, you know, formations like black holes, time moves slower.

1:49:02And so you, you know, theoretically. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's, it definitely was fascinating. Just the little bit that I did get from him, it blew my mind. Um, and he also, um, mentioned, uh, we talked about, uh, the son. He said that I, I, I in particular remember this one because he, um, he was so, um, very it's almost as if they respected our sun um more than you would think that and you know we take the sun for granted it's just the sun you know that that's where we get sunlight and energy and and it's no big deal but he he kind of i felt it was more of a reverence um feeling towards the sun because he was talking about how we really don't understand the value of our son and that we will at some point eventually understand it.

1:50:06Visible puts unlimited 5G data and hotspot in the palm of your hand. Powered by Verizon's 5G network with no contract holding you back. And for a limited time, you can get Visible for just$19 a month for 12 months when you use promo code SAVE6. All the features of big wireless service for half the cost. Tap the banner to switch today. Terms apply. Standard rate applies at month 13. See visible.com for planned features and network management details. It's funny, I had an off-record conversation, so I won't say who it was with, but with somebody who I think is knowledgeable around UFO reverse engineering programs.

1:50:45And he made this analogy of the sun being some sort of like portal to other star systems. And I don't know, you think about the history, the sun is so interesting. You have Ankh-Otten, you know, the sun god. And even if you read Isaac Asimov, wrote a book called The Kingdom of the Sun, where it talks about the changing conception of humanity's understanding of the sun. And you read about, you know, Copernicus, who, you know, theorized the heliocentric universe. And he had this very mystical conception of the sun that went well beyond just him thinking it was some, you know, linchpin or whatever necessary necessary for, you know, planetary orbits or whatever.

1:51:25So, yeah, it's it's. And we are, you know, we are discovering more and more about the sun and we're sending probes and all that. And it's still a very wide open discovery platform, I think, for science. Definitely. And yeah, I think you write in your book that Spock even said that your scientists are just now figuring out how the sun generates energy. and you know you have obviously Kardashev scales which kind of measure you know how advanced a civilization is and you know level two would be basically creating a Dyson sphere which is harnessing the energy of the sun so maybe not in our lifetime but maybe not in our lifetime but I mean the sun is a fusion generator and you know there are nuclear fusion startups now which is you know controlled fusion is this holy grail of energy generation so so anyway that those are those were the kind of the highlights um it it it wasn't a treasure trove of information and i wish it was because it would make the book a lot more interesting that's for sure but it was um these are just kind of the impressions that i got and it was a it was a a fascinating experience i can't really emphasize enough that it is something that our world is slowly coming to terms with I've actually been asked just recently to be part of a congressional, you know, testimony and all that stuff.

1:52:58And there's a certain project that's out. They've labeled a project disclosure or something like that. We're slowly, slowly getting to that point where the government is going to have to say something or give some little tidbit of information to the world because. You would think. The pressure is just so high. Yeah, you just can't explain it away through campfire stories anymore. I just want to get back to the core details of the Spock thing. So are you seeing a gray alien in your mind's eye? Okay, no. I never saw any visualization of what they look like. So just you having semantic concepts kind of come into your mind in this tapestry.

1:53:41I have the same stereotypical view of an alien that everybody else has. yeah i don't have any um although when i see an alien like um you know a fictional character or whatever i always um i always put i overlay my communications onto that so that it becomes a little bit more um important or not important but uh it has a different aspect to it when i look at alien as opposed to if somebody else slips out of need. Yeah, I know. I imagine it has a very different connotation. You're like, I know something like that is probably real. Yeah. Did you have any sort of feeling towards Spock? Did you develop a liking to him or were you like, you know, this is some foreign weird thing that I'm, yeah.

1:54:33No, well, I think it largely has to do with the fact that we never really became intimate as far as our conversations. So you kind of it it might as well have just been the computer at the school as far as i was concerned right other than um the the the colorful colorful the the detail of the of what i was communicating through now my tapestry so to speak um that was different i mean that was all new to me I was able to tap into it easily because of my training, but the training never, I never saw that venue of communication until I actually got the communications from the aliens. until then it was very it was very um um it was very clean it was um let's say what's the word um sanit it was sanitized it was very uh clean it's almost like you were like a human antenna or something or a conduit or yeah yeah i i kind of um look at it as like a it was chromatic that type of communication was chromatic whereas this was very organic and very colorful and very um um clear you know there was a lot of clarity to it is there anything special about the base where you were like maybe i'm being asked to do this project preserve destiny and communicate with aliens because this base is located in a particular place that's unique or has some equipment that might be good for alien communications or well Um, the project that I worked on, I mean, other than, um, project preserve destiny, the black project was a very interesting into itself.

1:56:32I mean, that, that would be, that would be a podcast that anybody would love to hear because it was just so interesting. Um, and it had to do with electromagnetic stuff, but, um, it was, I don't, I don't know if there would be any correlation between the two. I mean, other than just being the cover for it. Yeah, because I think, I don't know, there are guys that come up in UFO lore like Robert Sarbacher. And he was actually, we were talking about Whitley Strieber before this started rolling. And he was looking to Whitley Strieber. They were about to meet the day he died. But he was, this guy, Sarbacher, ran R &D under Vannevar Bush.

1:57:13Like he was basically Vannevar Bush's AR. He ran the whole Washington, you know, national labs. He was like an atomic energy kind of godfather in the United States. And he, in 1987, towards the end of his life, started to come out and write letters to UFO researchers like this guy, William Steinman, and say, you know, the UFO rumors are substantially true. Vannevar Bush was involved in this project, as was John von Neumann and all these things. And he wrote a book called Ultra High Frequency Engineering. I wonder if his vector in the whole UFO thing was some sort of communication modality with the aliens that was maybe on that side of the electromagnetic spectrum.

1:57:55What was the content of his book? What did it talk about? You know, it's Chinese to me. It's like extremely esoteric. It talks about radio, though, as far as waves, electromagnetic energy. Is that what it was? Yeah, I don't know what exact spectrum, but I... No, I don't mean the spectrum. I just mean in general, it's about, about electromagnetic energy. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Well, and, but was it, was it about, um, the government's involvement with it or just. No, it was just a general sort of textbook on it. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. I don't know. Did you at any point think that maybe this wasn't an alien on the other end of the communication?

1:58:35You were just being told that because I do think this is the, what makes this whole topic so tricky is that in certain cases the reverse dynamic of what you just of what we've been talking about this entire time sometimes you're not tagging a gray project with a black project but you're tagging a black project with a gray fake gray thing to catch spies you know it's this classic intelligence move say you had some like anti-gravity vehicle or whatever you'd call it alien and then you'd write a bunch of fake documents that you know talk about aliens or whatever. And then it would like you it'd be like putting like a die into a pipe and you'd see the communication trail and you'd catch Soviet spies or, you know, you do also throw people off the trail or whatever.

1:59:21Maybe you'd initiate recruits because it would be sort of a puzzle for them to figure out. So it would like serve all these purposes to actually call black stuff alien. So did you ever think maybe I was actually I'm actually just communicating with, you know, in a way that breaks physics, which is fascinating, or the physics as we know it, but humans through more mind matter parapsychological means. Now we have like the telepathy tapes, one of the most popular podcasts in the U.S. earlier this year. Yeah, you're probably familiar. I heard the name, yeah. Talks about these like nonverbal, often autistic children who, you know, can telepathically communicate and commune on this sort of hill.

2:00:04It's absolutely fascinating. Sort of send each other images at really high accuracy rates. And so did you ever think maybe you were part of a human parapsychology program and they were tagging it with the alien thing? I gave that some thought, especially when I was writing the book. I wanted to kind of flesh out my thoughts on how it would be interpreted into the public, you know, and what people would ascribe to my experience and how they would try to block or try to get it off what I thought and go into other areas. And so I did think of that. And I, I guess it's possible, you know, it's, it's not impossible, obviously, because I never saw an alien.

2:01:00I never, even visually, I never saw an alien and never got any indicator as to what they were human or not. But I can say that the way the communications happened, unless we've somehow gained the ability to do that in some way, the style of communication was very foreign to how our minds think. So maybe on this plane, even if you have two humans, that is kind of the standard by which you would communicate in that way. even between humans. But I got this distinct impression that it was not a human. Yeah, but you're also talking about strings of numbers and like it does feel foreign. The way it's being communicated doesn't feel like it's interesting.

2:01:57I mean, there are nonverbal tribes, indigenous tribes that talk about the ancient language where they are able to kind of communicate telepathically with each other. And there are people with mind melds going on, you know, like couples over long periods of time and that sort of thing. Twins. I mean, they're the classic example. And so this felt like a different variety of things. Yeah, but the communications, I would think anyway, the communications in that way would still be human type of communications because we think in a certain way. That's what I'm saying. This felt qualitatively different as far as what was coming in.

2:02:34Yeah. And I can't really attribute it to or can't compare it to anything else that I could vocalize to you. It's just completely different. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, there are theoretical ways, like, have you heard of bone induction? Do you know what that is? Well, I've seen those speakers, you know, that you can put around your neck or whatever, and they had the bone induction. Exactly. You could hear sound. Classic example is Beethoven was deaf. And so like he would actually bite onto a conductive rod that was connected with his piano and he would play notes and then he would hear it because it would bypass his ear canal.

2:03:14And so there are ways to communicate semantic information that bypass the traditional kind of auditory track. And actually, the director of the NSA while you were in your program was this guy, Bobby Ray Inman, who's on record talking about UFOs with this UFO researcher named Bob Oxler. I don't know if you know about this on a phone call. Do you anticipate that any of the recovered vehicles would ever become available for technological research outside of the military circles? Again, I honestly don't know. Ten years ago, the answer would have been no. Whether time has evolved, they're beginning to become more open on it, is a possibility.

2:04:00He then goes on to, you know, work at SAIC. It's this, you know, big military contractor that, you know, made tons of money during Star Wars and, you know, strategic defense initiative. And then they got into psychotronic research and psychotronic weaponry and stuff. And so it's always this question for me is like, what came first? Is it the alien stuff? Or is it the weird MKUltra, like kind of, you know, like embedded implant sort of, you know, communication stuff. and you know it's funny I definitely don't shake out that old human technology explains all of this stuff like I think your story is like a great example of that but it's such an interesting history yeah so I don't I just back to your original question I think that I'm pretty convinced it was alien yeah but there's no way that I could prove it in court yeah well no that's an intellectually honest you know readout and I appreciate that and you know it's I think it's extremely fascinating either way but i that's true i mean even if it were two humans it would still be fascinating still breaking paradigm physics and and also a totally you know new area for the nsa nobody thinks they're involved with but i uh i you know after reading your book going through all your stuff watching all your interviews i also think it's genuinely alien but um okay so uh that was the first base uh you're gonna take a sip of water we can yeah we can do it on camera too yeah yeah that's true yeah we could always yeah be that at least we don't have the cigars like uh rogan yeah yeah are you a fan of his yeah yeah he's he's um interesting i've been a fan of his as a comedian too i mean yeah his comedy is epic yeah he's he's amazing i think he's so cool i think he's such a good good guy he's so genuinely curious and all this stuff yeah oh yeah definitely he's a curious mind i love that i love when people are curious yes and not um semantic and rote and you know just within your own box yeah i want to look out at other things it's good i think it's fear it's like in you if you can't integrate something with your worldview you have this like immune reaction oh yeah you just don't you don't want to look at it or we're going through that yeah yeah yeah i'm sure you sometimes get that it's funny like sometimes i'm like yeah i run a podcast on ufos and people are like oh cool and they like move on and start talking about the weather or something i'm sure usually like maybe you occasionally tell people yeah i was you know recruited uh by the nsa to decode alien signals oh cool yeah what's um what are you doing after this yeah like do you ever get that reaction oh definitely or it's like not even like they're not even capable of like holding it in their worldview.

2:06:41I, I, um, but I have the opposite effect really in that. I mean, for me anyway, I don't really want to talk about it. So because, because it makes people uncomfortable. I believe that. So it's like, I'll say, well, once I get to know somebody, I won't say it initially, but you know, if they start, we can know each other and I'll say, yeah, and I, I, um, I don't know if you know, but I wrote a book and, and they go, oh, really? What is it? you know and i'll say i'll say the name of it i say it's on amazon you can you know above black search for it and and um and then i wait for them to come back yeah to come back and if they just never mention it again i'm like cool yeah i'm good yeah yeah yeah but you know if they have a genuine curiosity then i'm open to that too no it's a great filtering yeah it's because just saying it in to people and springing it on them yeah i communicated with aliens they're going okay yeah yeah yeah yeah no i get and it's like you you also i mean are refreshingly non-histrionic in your personality like it doesn't feel like you have some like you know desire for attention you have the you have the certain segment and i'm sure you're familiar with it yes of this of this world that is very i mean i went to um conferences when i my first released the book i would be invited to all kinds of conferences yeah yeah ufo conferences and alien conferences and and holy moly the people that i would interface with yeah no i mean it was often it's extreme narcissism too it's like this solipsistic like i am a starseed i was sent here from arcturus and i am gonna enlighten everybody and it's like come on like you really you really you're is you're the messiah it's crazy i one conference i went to one time um it had a bunch of like uh i don't know alternative stuff going on um experiences and things and one guy had the stigmata uh-huh you know you're familiar with that oh yeah that stuff and he had an open wound like right in the middle of his forehead, like bleeding.

2:09:02And he would uncover it because we were at a convention of things that people came here to see. So he would uncover it for people, but he usually kept it covered. I don't even know what to do. He did that to himself. There's no way. And then I think, you know, my story is in amongst all this. I'm like, chance do I have? I mean, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You have the stigmata guy. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You got the alien guy and the stigmata guy. Well, I think the stigmata guy, you know, is trying to compete against people like you who are just like, I don't remember fully what happened, but this is what I think happened.

2:09:45And, you know, but, you know, the core details are very verifiable. Well, it's kind of why I kind of left the scene. Because I really, I mean, my story is my story. yeah read in the book and that's it i mean i'm not i'm not trying to you know become a star i'm not trying to get us become a celebrity at this i just put out my story for people to gel with whatever their stories are and it's a piece of the puzzle and that's all i'm good for i mean i don't need to just let me hide over here in the corner somewhere yeah yeah and i I get, you know, I get pinged on Twitter all the time, and it's, I don't know what to say.

2:10:28I'm like, can I call you? I'm like, oh, really? Can you ask my question via text? Because I've talked to dozens of people, and it's just, I wrote it in the book. I don't, what else do you need to know? So I love this format here because we can talk about other things like stigmata and things like that and kind of put color to it. But for the most part, I just don't need to talk about this anymore because there's plenty of other people talking about it. It's in the book. Well, I'm honored you said yes to me. Why did you say yes to me? Well, you have a good charm over texts. Very good charm. And now in person, the same.

2:11:11So that's good. I just, I wanted it to be, I wanted it to be a clearinghouse, so to speak, or whatever I have to say vocally to people about the book. We're probably, I would assume, going to cover pretty much the entire thing. Yes. And so it's out there. And at my age, you know, I want to get it at the point where I'm still, you know, smiling and thinking clearly and all that stuff. and then I just want to let it go into the ether and it's well-researched, well-documented, well-talked, and it doesn't really need to be beaten like a dead horse. Well, I'm honored you said yes, and I do think we're going to package something in a way that, you know, right now it is these really structured, we were talking about this earlier, like kind of, you know, baby boomer kind of legacy media like so this happened and then this happened and then yeah well and it's a question and answer um yeah all the the the interviews that i've had up to this point were not podcasts before podcasts were a thing so it was very my last one was in florida and it was he was very nice very nice crew just like your crew very nice people but but it was very structured it was very yeah question and then answer question and answer and and it was very heavily edited you know for time and all that so i just came across as very um you you couldn't see me yeah well that that gets that begets skepticism now like when you see the like the even the late night talk shows or like the you know the the primetime broadcast or whatever And it's this like very like done up, you know, manicured, like, like, you know, set thing where it's like the producers were in touch with the guests prior.

2:13:07We're going to go over this. We're going to go over all these things. Like, it's funny you should ask that. Well, I was on vacation with my family. It's like, what are you? It's so weird. And then you have, honestly, Rogan's the biggest innovator. OG. OG. Him and like Marc Maron and stuff. where it's just, was fully just off the cuff. And you get a sense for, you're this voyeur looking into a conversation that's happening super organically and naturally. And you can suss out what's, you know, real and what's fake. Yeah, personalities have a lot to do with people's authenticity. Yes, totally. Well, I'm, you know, I'm happy because I watched all your interviews and I was like, this guy seems very sane and you seem even more sane in person.

2:13:51Great to see my stigmata. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. Well, you know, it's something funny. You were saying that, you know, this guy who's probably crazy and might be a hemophiliac if his wound was open this entire conference was, you know, saying that he, you know, had a stigmata. You know, one of the first guys to receive stigmata was St. Francis of Assisi post-Jesus. This is, I think, 13th century Italy on Mount Laverne. and there's this religious studies professor named Diana Pasolka. And she basically says, if you look at the original translation of what happened to St. Francis, it was probably just an interaction with a UFO.

2:14:32And it received sort of electromagnetic, you know, damage. Look at you bringing stigmata back to my story. That's what I'm saying. What a host. Yeah, you know, we do what we can. That's awesome. Yeah. Okay. So we're midway through the story. So we talked about Project Preserve Destiny Base One, which was overseas somewhere. There was a second base. Is that right? So you leave base one. Are you just like back into your normal Air Force electronics intelligence job or what do you do? Yeah, all of it's under the auspices of that. Okay. Um, and then I get, I get orders. That base is actually, I, I closed that base down.

2:15:15Um, the base itself closed the entire base, not just our aspect of it. Okay. So, um, I went to my next base and, um, same thing got, you know, read in as far as security clearances and for that place it took like i don't know 30 days for my security clearances to come in so i had no job it was like i was just free to do whatever i wanted to do yeah just hanging out actually funny story i you're supposed to stay within the area you know because if they call you you have to get there when they tell you to get there and i took a chance and i drove just about to say the state but i won't um i drove to a friend's house it was about a uh four hour drive something like that four or five hours and they called me when i got there they called me in and said you need to be here at eight o 'clock in the morning and i was like oh my gosh i gotta get back and it was a blizzard there was a blizzard the entire way home and i almost didn't make it back because of the blizzard and so um the the moral of that story is do what they tell you to do and stay in the local area when you have a 30-day hiatus anyway yes i so my clarence's got um is finally there and i got um for that one i went into my job and i was working at my regular job and the introduction happened by the previous captain actually showing up at my job in on the floor where I was working and I was like oh hey cap what's up what's up I didn't even know you were in the states I didn't know where he went from from where we were before and so you know we kind of had a nice friendly back and forth and so this is the guy pseudonymously named captain white or uh yeah whoever was the captain i i can't remember the name's now but the captain at the first base okay it was my former contact he was he was relaying to me my next contact who was a captain and at station at that base and um and so they were together and so i got a an in-person introduction this time as opposed to over the phone or whatever and then he took me over to the computer screen and I had already looked it up.

2:17:54I had already done the thing and I saw that it was there, so he didn't really even have to tell me. But I knew who my contact was now, so that was the most important thing. And same thing, you go to this sort of workstation terminal, is it in a van this time as well? No, this was in a big room, big air-conditioned room. This was, the previous base was very small. We had like 25 50 people something like that in our detachment very everybody knew one another it was very small knit or close knit um but the next base it was a very big base very big uh detachment um uh we had a multi-service air force navy marines everybody was there on the same building um so it was a big room uh but i wasn't as close to the people around me either so i had a little bit more space to do my thing um so nobody was hovering over me or right next to me or whatever and uh that took a couple maybe a couple months before i started receiving uh maybe not that long after i got briefed or into you know my security clearances and i started doing my job um i started to receive communications again prepare for communications like oh okay well here we go I'm at work.

2:19:15Let's go. I started to translate those. And same thing, you know, just. Same variety as Spock. Well, no, actually the communication has changed themselves. But I'm just saying that the whole process, every once in a while, I just get a communication just like I did at the previous space. And you're just sitting at your workstation in front of a monitor. Yeah, sometimes I was in the bathroom. I mean, I could be anywhere in the building. You'd receive communications wherever. Yeah, but I was always in the building. You'd always be in the building, and then you'd go to the workstation and type it.

2:19:51Whoever was overseeing this whole thing, they knew where I was, kind of location-wise. I was at work. Whoa. So they knew my shift. So once you received some sort of message, you'd go to the monitor, and you'd type in slash, and you'd type in whatever messages you were receiving. 118, then the five-digit code. But the rest of the communication, there was a lot of, this one, this marked a time when I became much more, it became much more detailed. The communications were much more detailed. How so? What were they like? Very, like pictures, images. Yeah, these communications, they were much more colorful.

2:20:30I think also you could get a kind of a sense of an emotion with the images. So it wasn't, you know, like when you watch a movie and you see somebody crying or you see, you can get emotion through visual and not just auditory, not, you know, seeing, I mean, hearing, but, you know, like words and stuff. But you can see, and these images that I saw, they didn't have words to them. I saw images, but no words. But I felt emotion. I could feel emotion with the image. Not necessarily all the time, but if it meant to have emotion, then I could feel emotion. Now, whether that was conveyed with the message or whether I had emotion looking at the visual, I can't really you know suss that as far as which was the generator of it, the image or me but I did feel emotion with some of the images so it was very much more colorful Do you remember any of the specifics of what was coming through?

2:21:45Oh like the example of the rocket, that was one of the ones that I got that was a visual

2:21:55because you also you also experienced a rocket failure in base one as well no i think that the visuals were at the base two two not base one that's so interesting that it's like rockets specifically because if you were that's what i remembered there's a lot of others sure like scenes at a grocery store like random things okay um i saw some troop movements before i I saw like Jeeps and two and a half ton deuces or whatever they're called, the big truck carrying trucks. Marching, you know, troop marching. I saw, let's see, some nature stuff like in the forest, animals, things like that. Did they feel like things of particular strategic importance or like were they just random?

2:22:55Well, no, I really honestly believe the entire process or the entire time that I was doing this was all testing. It didn't have any functionality to it. Was this alien being that you're now speaking to the same as Spock? Was it different? No, this was a different one. I only know that based on the quality of the communication. Because I could say that if I were talking to you on the phone, and then you put somebody else on the phone, like a lady, I could tell that that was two people. Sure. Even another guy, I could tell it was two people. And in the same way with this communication, you can definitely tell that the communication is different.

2:23:38It has a different flavor, a different substance to it. like the tapestry analogy that I meant, it's a different type of tapestry. So I think I would assume when I'm communicating with them, I have a certain tapestry that they're tapping into. Did you have a nickname for this alien thing? Yes, I did. What was that? Well, I started on the Star Trek theme, so I just continued it with Bones. And I only said Bones because I thought it was just a funny, or I used that because it was funny, but there was no really correlation. With the first one, there was a correlation because he was logical. And so I was like, oh, that's cool.

2:24:17Let's name him Spock. But the second one was just a continuation of the naming. Did you ever try to ask Bones or Spock personal questions? Like, where do you come? Well, yeah. For Bones, I became more adept at doing that because I had just discovered this new plane with Spock. But then I left soon after. We shut down that communications there because the base was closing and the C-Vam was being closed up and packed up and all that. So I wasn't able to do any more with Spock. But Bones, I continued that theme because almost immediately I tried that new plane that I was telling you about, the closer one.

2:25:04And he was also fairly, I wouldn't say shocked, but he was inquisitive about like, really, you could do that. That's interesting. And so we used that, or I used it to, and I don't think I needed to, looking back at it, I could have just used the regular tapestry or plane or whatever you want to call it. But I kind of associated this in my mind. I associated that other one, the closer one, with a more informal communication. So that's what I would always use for my questions. And so I had questions for Bones. And I think that a lot of the ones that we went over already are the ones that came from Bones.

2:25:49Well, you also, I think, asked both Bones and Spock, is it okay that we're communicating like this from the perspective of this national security program that you're involved with? And I think they both said the same thing. Is that right? Yeah, they did. What did they both say? They said it's, there's no, I can't remember the exact, but he basically said that there's no problem. I mean, it's not a big deal. Yeah. Yeah. Communicating is communicating. And I think they both almost express, they're like, we don't quite know what the, you know, exact protocols are of your like human program. So it's cool with us.

2:26:28Like it doesn't matter from our perspective. It seemed like they were kind of like on the same track as I was. Like they're just being doing what they're being told to. Right, right, right. You know, kind of. Like maybe they have officers on the alien side and they're like, they have need to know and they don't really have a limited information set. And they're just channeling. Now, they did shut down communications a lot when I tried to ask things that they didn't want to answer. Yeah. They would just shut down. But I didn't get the sense that there was a certain way that things needed to happen.

2:27:03I think they were more interested in the testing of my ability to communicate than they were necessarily the content. Now, of course, I'm sure they had off-limit types of subjects that they couldn't talk about. But for the most part, when I did ask a question, they would give some sort of an answer at least or shut down. Yeah. Or they'd seem like kind of coy and like, you know, give you some high-level like riddle or something. Well, I don't think they tried to riddle. It's just that my feeble brain. Sure. It became a riddle because of my feeble brain. Well, it's like if you live in some timeless dimension or something, you're trying to describe that to somebody.

2:27:45The words literally will fail on you as well. So what did Bones say about religion when you asked? Well, I got the impression that we were—he mentioned that we were part of the same creation. In other words, we were part of the same fabric of existence. As the aliens? Yeah. Okay. we're all we're all part of it um he didn't necessarily say they have a soul but he said that that um he he implied we have a soul he said that there are two intel there are two creations intelligent and non-intelligent and like plants were part of the non-intelligent and we and them were part of the intelligent creation and if you have intelligence then you have what i interpreted when when i heard it was a soul now he might have meant something else but this internal agency or internal knowing that i think that that's probably a better way of knowing it and i think i ascribe because at the time i was religious i i had a religious belief so to speak um so i think i pushed soul into that that round hole yeah um now that i look back on it it didn't necessarily mean soul but it meant a sort of a a self-agency a self-awareness did you ever ask any questions about yourself like how was i genetically manipulated or why or okay i um if i did i don't remember it because i i didn't get an answer i don't think because i i don't remember anything thing like that.

2:29:24Did you ever ask them how long they've been visiting humanity? Yes. I tried to address that several times. My impression was that they'd been here for a very long time, and that they've intersected with humanity at different times. And he did mention also that it became much more difficult once our civilization had advanced, because it was the the levels of communication between civilizations and stuff it was harder to keep um their um autonomy or their their distance so to speak from when they wanted the distance it was harder to do that when other societies were talking about each other this was my impression they didn't exactly say it that way but that's what i i got the impression of did they talk about any sort of interbreeding between humans and aliens?

2:30:18I got the impression that they had interbredded before, experimentally. I'm not, that doesn't necessarily mean that it was still, or that we still have the results of that, so to speak, on Earth. But he did mention that they had experimented with that in the past. Did you ask, are you the only alien race? Are there others? Yeah. um thank you for reminding me of that uh yes um he said there were a lot like um i got the impression that it was a silly question like like of course there's there's more speed this entire universe and you think we're the only two yeah so i got that impression Did you ask if they have genders, you know, in their race or their lifespans were?

2:31:14They do have female and male. They have a different, they don't, they don't procreate exactly like we do. But they do have a dual, a dual sex type of situation. And, and yes, they, he said they do eliminate waste. and I sensed a little bit of a humor with that. Yeah. Which was funny because here's two different species and you talk about waste and you get humor. Yeah, in both cases, which is, that's fascinating, yeah. But I never felt a sense of like doubled over laughing type of humor, but I could sense that it was a lighter topic. Oh, interesting. Yeah. When you when you talk about like missiles or, you know, you get an imagery of missiles or something like that.

2:32:11It has a it has a certain framework or emotion to it. And then when you talk about stuff like that, it has a different framework or emotion to it. So, yeah, I sense humor. It's funny. I just interviewed this whistleblower named Charles Hall who claimed to live with Paul White aliens while stationed at Area 51 for two and a half years. And he claims that they lived with them, lived with. Wow. Yeah. And he, yeah, like like interactions across, you know, you know, days at a time over in a two and a half year period where he interacts with family groups, you know, some of the kids and the father and he has names for them.

2:32:52He calls one of them a good friend. That's what he calls one the teacher. He calls one something hairy. It's wild. And he says that the UFOs have bathrooms on them. In the back of that craft was a restroom. In the back of all those people are real physical biological entities. They all have to eat. They all have to breathe air, drink water. and they all have to periodically go to the restroom. So, I don't know. Well, I mean, it stands to reason. I mean, we're organisms. Sure. Organisms have to eliminate. Yeah. Speaking of UFOs, did you ask about their mode of travel at all? Yeah. It had to do with electromagnetic energy and time.

2:33:43um uh i think the i can't remember what it's called now the where that there's a scientist that came up with this concept of of um um pulling the ship as opposed to pushing the ship yeah sure the al cubi area yeah yeah yeah yeah over the years after my communication i i came to think that that was a very very close proximity to what he was you're surfing kind of a space-time wave yeah you you create a void in front of you and you fall into that void and you keep creating the void yes bob lazar also says similar stuff to that i really think that was what he was with what they were trying to i mean they never really got into details but they used um a manipulation of electromagnetic energy, probably something that we don't really understand at this point.

2:34:43Did they have anything to say about the nature of human beings or what we are? He always referred to us as water vessels or water beings, water humans. There was always a water aspect of it. And I think it's because they were probably not as, they aren't made up of as much water as we are. That's what I gather. I guess we are like 80 % water. Yeah, yeah. Water's conductive. Yeah. So it was just an interesting, I mean, it wasn't something that we focused on. It was just in reference, he would say that's how he referred to as humans. Water beings. Water beings. It's fascinating. Did you get into Project Preserve Destiny and whether it was, you didn't ask them any questions?

2:35:28Well, I did, but I never really got any answers on any of that. Did you ask whether it was international or just? Well, yeah, we did. He did say that it was more than one country. Okay. That was maybe not necessarily involved with PPD, but that was involved with their involvement with Earth, so to speak. Did you receive any messages about alien abductions or alien activity? Well, that was, okay, so towards the end of my stay with this project, I started to receive stuff that indicated that it was abductions. And that's where I started to feel like an accessory, you know, accessory to the crime, so to speak.

2:36:17And who knows whether that was a crime or not. I mean, I don't know. I don't know. In retrospect, I don't know whether they were abducting for humanitarian reasons. Who knows? Sure. Maybe to— Upgrade our consciousness. Yeah, yeah. Or increase our ability to know about the body and work with it and heal it. There could be so many different reasons why. But why surreptitiously? Why not tell the public about what's going on? And so at the time, and of course I was going through a stage in my life too, also where I didn't want to be isolated anymore. I was in a prime age where, you know, you're dating and.

2:37:01How old were you? When I got out, I was around that time, I was 30. Yeah. Around 30. It's definitely the prime of your life. Well, I believe you asked the first captain that briefed you on everything at the NSA complex. why is this whole thing being kept secret? And he talked about economic destabilization and things like that. But I think, you know, I think he was parodying what he was told. I don't think he had any agency in that answer. Yeah, yeah. Felt like a can. Yeah. And it's the same answer that everybody has, that the reason why we're not being told anything is because religion will, you know, be upset.

2:37:44I think that's bullshit. I mean, I think we live in a pretty... in effect, atheist, materialist world or whatever. Well, there would be a certain faction of people that would blow their mind if it actually came out truth-wise. I think it would reinforce religion in many ways. That's, well, create maybe others, who knows. But yeah, it would definitely be a shock to the system. For sure. If nothing else. Absolutely. Yeah. But that doesn't mean that it shouldn't be done. I mean. Yeah. but but anyway i think his what he was saying to me was just it was it was just pat answer did you get like kind of a map of what was going on alien abduction wise or see any visually or anything um so the the the reason why i thought it was abductions is because of the the the um fields so to speak that i was reporting you know the information um they would report like uh potentiality for recall and pain levels and just different things that I would have to report a number in back of.

2:38:55So that indicated that it was some sort of, it could be bad or good based on the numbers. So a pain level could be good or bad. So it was almost like you were reporting on abductions, like somebody's pain level after having experienced an abduction. That's fascinating. And so you were like the, the like readout debrief guy or whatever, without even maybe knowing it sort of unwittingly. Yeah. And, and this, up until that point, I had thought, or I had assumed that the information that I was conveying was all training. It was all just stuff, you know, that was, um, testing my ability to communicate.

2:39:36And then when that started, it shifted my head like, well, we're not testing this anymore. I mean, obviously I can communicate a few numbers and a word. So you're actually using me as an operational asset to communicate stuff. and why you would need to do that. That was another thing. But I don't want to be... It's one thing to train me to do something in a training environment and nobody's getting hurt or nothing nefarious other than the fact that you're keeping this from the world. But other than that, set that aside. but now I see that I am part of something that may be nefarious now maybe not but maybe and then so I brought that up to my my captain and he didn't give me satisfactory answers he said look I'm just your communicator here I'm just your contact I'm I'm not I'm not in a position to say, it's okay, Dan, you know, you know, no, that's not happening.

2:40:55I don't know. I don't even know what you're communicating. So how am I, I don't know what to do here. So, and then when I got to the point where I said, I want to get out, that's when he became an important catalyst for my getting out because he said, I honestly don't think you're going to be able to get out. Like even when your list is up, you're going to have to stay in. So, but was that the thing that gave you moral qualms about what you do? I mean, it is fascinating. You were kind of like reporting on abductions for the aliens, maybe like they were probably, you know, getting, receiving signals from you about, or reports from where the abductions were occurring.

2:41:38And then simultaneously presumably you have some gray human faction of you know the proverbial deep state or whatever military industrial complex coordinating on where the alien abductions are occurring levels of pain people are feeling that's that's amazing yeah and and i i honestly could not i i couldn't be a part of it i i mean i felt morally um um compromised yeah because i didn't have any choice. There is no agency in this, you know? So it's one thing, it's like, you know, when you're told to go out and kill an enemy, well, you have agency. You can say, no, I'm not going to do that. And you can court-martial me, you can do whatever you need to do, but I'm not going to do that.

2:42:27Well, I didn't have that other than what I did was try to get out. I didn't have that option. I didn't have anybody to say, no, stop communicating with me. I don't want to do that and i actually did in my communications i tried to ask about it and say are these abductions and i would never get an answer it was like the stonewalling and that's what led me to get all angry about it it's so interesting too because in ufo alien lore you have around 1954 as this like really important point where this is again mythology i don't have a ton of corroboration for this other than I think the fact that Eisenhower was actually in Palm Springs at the time, claimed to have a dentist appointment.

2:43:11And then the, the, uh, sort of story is that that was covered for a meeting he had at Edwards Air Force Base. And it was a meeting with aliens where he basically agreed, you know, for basically like favor and military matters, uh, to, uh, give up part of the, you know, American population for medical testing, you know, when it came to the alien presence. And so that really does sound like what you're talking about, maybe outside of the dates being, you know, early 1960s versus 54. Well, I often wondered, well, how did they, how did they get this information to people that needed to get it before?

2:43:52Right. Before the ICs were doing this. Sure. I was doing it at least. So I, but, but it may be, it may have been a test, you know to test my um resolve to to you know they kind of kind of poke on the little bit of is he gonna is he gonna report anything that we tell him yeah you know dead dead numbers is he gonna report stuff that is immorally just way immoral is he gonna have problems with anything Yeah. And I evidently had a problem. Have you ever been abducted by an alien? I have never been abducted. I mean, to my knowledge anyway. To your knowledge. Yeah. You've never found an implant or anything sort of bizarre like that?

2:44:37No, I have not. Have you had synchronicities in your life that you feel like led to your involvement in Project Preserve Destiny? Well, you know, it's hard to have some sort of concrete evidence. But I remember when I was in second grade, I was playing on a garage roof and there was a walnut tree next to the roof and we were leaning out on the branches. And one of the branches snapped and I fell. And I fell like 25 feet. It was really, really high. And I fell on my back, directly on my back. and I remember feeling a sense of warmth. I did feel the impact, but I don't think I felt it as much as you would normally.

2:45:32That would be a severely debilitating fall. And it made me cry and I got up, but I felt this warmth over me and I thought that maybe I was bleeding or, you know, the trauma of the, I mean, you don't think of, you don't think of a lot of things when you're second grade, but, but in my memory, I did not hit that ground the way I should have hit it, given it was 25 feet up. And who knows? I mean, there could have been some sort of

2:46:07watching over, so to speak, of, of my personhood. And of course the SR-71 pilot, He really encouraged me to go in the Air Force.

2:46:22And I have this, in the update of my book, which I did in 2008 or something like that, I have this ability to hear a certain, and it's not necessarily hearing, but it's through my ear. It's like a wave that comes through my head, and it's sensed in my eardrum. and I think I've correlated it to seismic activity. I think I'm highly sensitive to seismic activity. Interesting. And I correlated it before I got it in the program. You'd sense earthquakes. Well, I can't sense an earthquake itself, but I can sense, I think, what is happening to a precursor of an earthquake or maybe after an earthquake.

2:47:08You have like premonitions. Well, it's not, no, not a premonition. it's because premonition is more of a idea yeah this is a an actual physical thing that happens and and it's like um i don't know if anybody else has this ability but when like when a electronic item comes on a tv or um anything that's really highly electronic i can i can sense when it's come on you can yeah whoa and like if if so if i'm in the in a different room and somebody has the TV down, the TV screen down, I can sense when it's come on. So you're hypersensitive to electromagnetic. Yeah, oh, definitely. So interesting. So I think I've correlated the earthquake thing, and it's not a one-to-one correlation.

2:47:55It's very tenuous and ethereal, you know, because sometimes I'll sense stuff and sometimes I won't. Well, I think you put some examples in your book around your blog where you predict accurately certain earthquakes based on sensations. And the only reason I did it, I had a blog back in the early 2000s. And I put on there that I don't usually say stuff because my blog was about entrepreneurial stuff and things like that. But I did put in there, I said, I don't usually bring this topic into my blog, but I really have to put this somewhere because I need it to be logged. and i said i'm really i have this way or thing in my ear where i can sense electromagnetic energy or what i think is electromagnetic energy and so i'm i woke up i don't know if i woke up but i had i had lost ear hearing in one of my ears for like three days it was really really intense this because usually i just feel it going through my head there's a really minor time of like maybe five seconds that i can't hear and then it goes away but this one i was like deaf in one ear for like three days it was ridiculous i couldn't i i didn't know what was going on but then i correlate i was like well there's got to be some there's got to be some correlation to something earthquake wise so i put in my blog i said now i'm thinking that this might be within the next couple of weeks.

2:49:29It could be the next couple of months, but it's impending. It's got to be some seismic activity. So there was like two 7.5 earthquakes back to back in Japan. And some people commented on my blog saying, oh, is that it? And it was only like a week or so after my thing. And I was like, you know, I guess it could be, but I don't think it is. I think there's something way bigger than that i think this is not because because i've i've gone through 7.5 earthquakes around the world you know before i never had that happen so i was like no i think it's something else so that was in september of 03 i believe it was and in december is when the the um the indonesian earthquake happened and you know 250 000 people died of battle waves and all that stuff and well no it was four it was it was because i updated my book in 2006 and i updated it with that okay so anyway okay um but it was it was huge yeah whether that was just coincidence and and i got that sensation you know that that amount of time before the earthquake who knows and i haven't got anything like that since and there's been really really big earthquakes so So now I will get it like periodically, like three times.

2:50:57And usually is there an earthquake after you get it? I would say a lot of the times, but not all the time, which is the reason why I'm so unclear on it. Because if it were a one-to-one type of thing, then I'd be like, yeah, that's definitely it. Well, it's fascinating if you could map out the correlation more. I think maybe the more interesting thing is most people can't sense when a TV is turned on in their room next to them. I mean, that's really unique. Yeah, I can definitely sense. And it actually has a lot to do. Well, the modern TVs, not so much, but the tube TVs, those are the ones that I could really.

2:51:39Do you think if somebody did a study on you and you were like in a Faraday cage or like in a not even Faraday cage because that will block out the electromagnetic signal. So maybe that's a bit. Say somebody did an experiment on you. I would love to do that. You were in a room. Somebody was in another room next door. They shared a wall. You know, they have an old TV in that room and they're turning on the TV. Do you think you'd be able to? I honestly I think I could. Wow. I mean, I've never done it before. And this is very anecdotal because I sensed it when I was a kid. I would always know when the TV was on because when my dad would.

2:52:16Because we had an older TV and the sound wouldn't come on with it. It would be one of those tube TVs, you know, the big tubes in the back. It was a big Magnavox. And but I could be in a different room and I would know that when the TV came on it because the sound wouldn't come up initially. it would just tv would come on and warm up very old and so yeah i just i i have a very i'm very sensitive to things like that i'm also sensitive to it's very interesting um and this is a fairly new correlation although i've always had it probably but with the advent of a lot of videos being shared of people hurting themselves when somebody when i when i watch a video of like you know these these videos where you'll have a whole montage of people falling and and crashing into a wall yeah yeah just crashing their bike and you know all these things falling on their porch it's like rob dyrdek show or whatever of like yeah i can't watch those because when i when when the impact yeah happens i feel it in my body my entire body does a shot when when i look at that and it's the I think it has to do with the empathic yeah nature of me seeing a visual like that it I I honestly cannot I mean I'll watch a couple of them and then I'll go no I can't do that so you're you're hypersensitive very very sensitive very sensitive to smell yeah hearing all my all my senses are very very very heightened like it drives it drives my girlfriend crazy I can smell somebody smoking in the car in front of me on the highway.

2:53:59Whoa. So interesting. I mean, a lot of people can smell smoke too, but they can, it's very, very, very, very heightened. Well, it's, you know, there are different forms of sensing and we obviously have the five senses, but you know, that like the platypus can sense electric fields, for example. You have lots of examples like that, you know. So it's kind of impossible. Yeah, or it's like maybe there's genetic mutations and maybe you were literally genetically manipulated by aliens in the womb to be able to censor things. It could have ancillary crossovers in other areas of the brain. Well, that would make sense.

2:54:39Yeah, that it wouldn't be an isolated thing. Yeah. Yeah. Babies also have, you know, they're hypersensitive. They also have synesthesia up until six months. and there's a space psychologist who works with a lot of astronauts and she calls herself a cognitive engineer. Her name is Dr. Ea Whiteley. And she's trying to train babies to retain their synesthesia for longer because she thinks that comports with alien communication. It's really interesting. Very interesting. Yeah. Your job is real interesting. I love it. It's so fun, man. It's so interesting. I mean, I get to talk to people like you and learn about all this crazy stuff.

2:55:19It's so cool. Has anything, well, actually, we should talk about, like, the increased sort of bitterness towards this. You're in the prime of your life. You're 30 years old. You know that you have all this opportunity cost. You probably have no romantic life. Your social life is probably kind of shot. And then you talk to your captain about wanting out, and what does he say and how does it make you feel? He said, he suggested, he didn't say it like, you know, you will not. But he said, I don't, honestly, given your position, I don't think they're going to allow you to get out, period. Never mind the fact you want to get out now.

2:55:57I had about two or three years left on my enlistment, and I decided to just make an end run and try to get out because I just didn't want to be a part of it anymore. And I think if I had become more embraced, part of a community, part of a mission, those are different. Your human mind approaches that differently than if you're just isolated and in a box and nobody wants to talk to you and you're just a tool. It's harder. It's harder to keep that motivation. and that the the superman um the superman uh uh aspect of this you know because when you're first told this you think oh i'm i'm a little bit of a superhero yeah i'm really special and all that that only goes so far and so long and and then you start to that starts to become no longer a novelty it's just it's a drudgery and then when i get this information about the about the um abductions and it just took on a new level and I just didn't want to be a part of it anymore.

2:57:10So how'd you get out? At the time, the don't ask, don't tell policy was in place. And, um, and I, I was bisexual at the time and, uh, less so now, but at the time I was. And so I I admitted, I said, I wrote a letter to my commander and I said, and this was the commander that was not in charge of me from the project perspective, Project Preserve Destiny. It was just my regular chain of command, my black and unclassified level. That chain of command got a letter and I said, I'm admitting homosexuality. So whatever you want to do with that, but I don't want to be in conflict with the policy of no homosexuals in the military.

2:58:07And so I just want to let you know, I want to be honest. And then that's the paperwork started and discharge and the whole nine yards. Wow. So the chain of command was crucial there because if the chain of command for Project Preserve Destiny had their way and they had final say on that, then I would not have gotten out. They would have just tossed the letter. But I purposely went through another chain of command who did not have the option of doing something like that. Were you relieved on the other side of this? Oh, yeah, definitely. I was way happier that I didn't have to participate in that anymore.

2:58:49Do I have regrets? Yeah, of course. I mean, I regret not being able to continue serving my time because I'm kind of a, you know, I'm a patriotic guy and I love my country. And I felt that was a little bit of a stab in the back of the country. But on the other flip side of that, they were stabbing me in the back too. Oh, yeah. Or at least a certain faction of my chain of command. So it was something that I had to tussle with mentally. Well, you served and they can't hold you captive. Yeah, exactly. And I wasn't going to be held captive, that's for sure. And an alien intuitive communication program, nonetheless.

2:59:34You know, it's not a garden variety, like, you know, just being deployed. Dan, did you experience any backlash after telling this story? I mean, it's kind of a bombshell claim. The NSA is notorious for knowing everything about everybody, per Ed Snowden's revelations. Yeah, that's true. You know, I do have one story. This was about maybe two years after the book came out, something like that. maybe a little less. And I was working in an office and, uh, Howard Stern show called on my cell phone. And, um, they, the producer, one of the producers was just trying to find a story to, you know, bring on the, the show.

3:00:23And so he was asking me some questions and, and so I got off the phone and hung up the phone and I, I was like, wow, Howard Stern, that's got an interesting little venue for talking about aliens. Okay. And then not, I'd say, maybe a minute went by and I got another call on my cell phone. And the person on the other end of the line said, drop the story. Don't go on Howard Stern and stop talking about it. No way. And then just hung up. No way. It was only about a minute after the call. And he didn't go on Howard Stern? No. Well, they never called back. Howard Stern never called back. So maybe they got the same call?

3:01:11I don't know. I don't know whether it just wasn't worth it for them to do it, or they got a call, or I don't know. But you got a call from a random number that wasn't in your phone. Well, this was, but phone probably didn't even have the number. You weren't even saving numbers at that time? No, no, no, no. That's wild. And what, did it sound threatening? No. It just sounded very direct to the point. And I think it was just a, they've been monitoring the situation with my story. And they know that if they put attention to it, the government says, you know, they arrest me, let's say. They arrest me and put me up on charges.

3:01:53They're validating the story. Right. So it's almost like it's better to not just leave them alone and be one amongst the stigmata and the alien. Then nobody knows how to differentiate. Exactly. That's the trouble I have with some of these things. It's like, and especially on YouTube, sometimes it's like a, it always has this quacky veneer. It's self-concealing. It's self-stigmatizing. And people don't have the discernment. They bucket it in with the stigmata stuff. And I'm like, no, I think this is kind of real. Like, this is like a very different, you know, variety. That is the problem with the whole topic.

3:02:31Yeah. Because you don't know what to take serious and what to not take serious. You really don't. Do you think that the NSA or powers that be know that this interview is happening? It obviously hasn't been released. Do you think somebody's tracking us doing this? I think I've been off the grid so long that I probably have not, I don't have an agent attached to my story. story. I don't think, but who knows? Who knows? Yeah. Well, to anybody listening. I'll let you know if I get a call. I'll do the same. Yeah. Hopefully neither of us get dropped the story right after this, took this whole trip. Has anything, you know, after having left this program for many years now, you're out for, you know, three decades.

3:03:13I imagine you go to these UFO conferences, you've written your book and people come out of the woodwork. And so have you met anybody who said I was also a part of Project Preserve Destiny or anything like that? I've had people mention to me that they met somebody who confirmed that it existed, but nobody that was actually in the program. No, I have not had anybody contact me. Do you know, have you heard of this guy named Noah, I could be pronouncing his last name incorrectly, Radek? Noah Radek? How do you spell the last name? H-R-A-D-E-K. Oh, no. So he put out a Freedom of Information Act around Project Preserve Destiny, probably inspired by your story, to the Air Force and wanted to know if it was real.

3:04:05And the Air Force said that's an NSA project, forwarded it to the NSA, and then the NSA said we can't comment on the existence or non-existence of such a project. Standard answer. Standard answer if you're admitting that it exists. Basically, the modern hermeneutic reading on that is this is a real project. I want to emphasize just how important this point of discussion is. While at first the Air Force denied the existence of Project Preserve Destiny to this independent researcher, Noah Roddick, they followed up later saying this, and I quote, Good afternoon. This letter is in final response to your 27th of July, 2023 Freedom of Information Act request for requesting information on Project Preserve Destiny.

3:04:53We apologize in the delay in responding. After a careful review of your request, we have determined that the information you are seeking falls under the purview of the NSA. Therefore, our office has referred your request to the NSA for their processing and direct response to you. Why would the Air Force tell Radek that this program fell under the purview of the NSA if the program didn't exist? And it's remarkable that his request to begin with didn't even mention Dan Sherman. It independently corroborates that Project Preserve Destiny existed under the NSA. Then, not only could the NSA not confirm or deny the existence of Project Preserve Destiny, they cited Executive Order 13526 around projects classified in the interest of national defense.

3:05:45To quote their exact response, This agency has determined that the fact of the existence or non-existence of the material you request is a currently and properly classified matter in accordance with Executive Order 13526. Thus, your request is denied. So yes, on the one hand, the NSA is caveating their entire response with the existence or non-existence of Project Preserve Destiny. They're basically giving themselves an out on the program even existing. But why would the non-existence of Project Preserve Destiny cause the NSA to invoke Executive Order 13526, which only involves classified programs dealing with national defense?

3:06:27Why would they cite this specific executive order in response to a FOIA request around Project Preserve Destiny? To me, the Air Force rerouting the FOIA request to the NSA actually feels like more of a smoking gun on the program's existence. The NSA's response could be interpreted as a standard runaround or non-answer, but I'll let my hardcore researcher friends weigh in here. Perhaps what's even harder to argue with than coded language from the government is this certificate granted to Sherman by the NSA for satisfactory completion of the EA-280 Intermediate Electronics Intelligence Collection and Analysis course.

3:07:07Again, this was for the daytime course Sherman attended at the NSA complex, doing normal electronics intelligence training, Not his very classified Project Preserve Destiny work he would do at night, but it really helped substantiate his presence with the NSA when he claimed to be working with them. A fantastic researcher named Richard Geldreich did even more digging on Dan Sherman with an Ancestry.com search. The results showed that Sherman likely in fact lived in Omaha, Nebraska between 1993 and 1994, around 15 to 20 minutes from Offutt Air Force Base in Nebraska, where he said he was stationed.

3:07:47Could this be Project Preserve Destiny Base 2? It certainly fits his description.

3:07:56And so I don't know if you know that that happened. It sounds familiar. It sounds like somebody told me. Maybe you told me in some of the communications we had. I've heard something about it. I don't think I did. No? I heard somebody say something about it somewhere. You know, when you're in my position, you hear so many people talk about so many different things. And it becomes just a conglomeration of information that just goes through my head. And it doesn't help that my personal interests don't really lie in this area. Yeah, no, no, no. I think that's cool, though. It's also, to me, it's a good signal that you reacted the way you did just now.

3:08:39because I think if somebody were like cared a lot about like, you know, arguing for his case, he'd be like, they'd have like a kind of like an encyclopedic, like canon of like corroborating evidence. And you're like, yeah, cool. Like I know what I went through. So it doesn't really matter to me. I think that's a big deal as a researcher. And you're like, whatever. I had a, I had more of an interest in aliens before I knew they were aliens. Really? Than I do now. Why? I think it's the mystery of it. The mystery is what people are attracted to. Right. I mean, obviously, you know, we want to know the truth.

3:09:15Yeah. But I know the truth. So you feel like you've gotten confirmation. Yeah. So my mystery, the kind of the mystery aspect of it has vanished. Have you tried to develop your communications and speak to these people? Oh, I've tried before. And after leaving Project Preserve Destiny, have you been successful and spoken to it? nothing's there it's interesting it's like it was closed off have you tried to recreate any of the training with the tones or anything like that or i i think they used um some sort of equipment that was designed for that that was sort of this special proprietary thing that they figured out and it's so interesting yeah i also think of the nsa's involvement with this stuff the modern you know the kind of UFO research group that is, you know, very in the know right now, as far as the, the official, like the modern project blue book, if you will, um, is called ARO, the all domain anomalies resolution office.

3:10:15And the current, uh, head of that, it was a former NSA director. I don't think he was like the director, but he was like a director level or whatever. Um, so I find that interesting. His name is John Kozlowski. So I find that interesting as well. It's like, why would you put that guy? You know, maybe there is some NSA overlap because there aren't too many stories connected with the NSA and the alien stuff. But you would assume, you know, if the alien stuff is real, which obviously I believe it is, the NSA has to have a lot of entanglement with it. Yeah. You know, there's so many different connections because I was assigned to.

3:10:55um well let's just say in general yeah i was assigned to the space command and and during some of my tenure in the air force and and uh they have they have many connections to so nsa has many connections to many different um bands yeah okay they're not just nsa and that's it. You know, they have connections everywhere. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I won't ask more. I feel like we brushed up against classified stuff. There's a guy named Scott Andrews. Have you heard that name? He, when he was 36 years old, he has, I guess, a biography coming out this or next year that's very anticipated. When he was 36 years old, he started experiencing headaches and migraines and kind of destabilizing dizziness, some kind of Havana syndrome style effects.

3:11:46And he said that his father, he started to wonder why he was feeling like this. It was almost like his identity was breaking down. And then he approached his father who had a file on him. And he started to realize that as a child, I think in elementary and middle school, he was taken out of class and he was taken to an Air Force base with the Space Command Center and was doing kind of intuitive communications with aliens. So it definitely sort of comports with your story. What's his name again? Scott Andrews. And did he, how did you find out about this? It's all over Twitter. Oh, okay. Yeah. And did he write a book or did he just reveal a story?

3:12:31I think he's written a book and I think it's coming out at some point in the next year or so. Interesting. Yeah. How old is he? I don't know how old he is now. So, yeah, I mean, I think that might even be a pseudonym. I don't know. I hope he goes more public. That's interesting. Yeah. It's very anticipated, like this story. Well, it could be an offshoot of what I went through. Maybe. Another, you know, because I'm pretty sure that PVD has been shut down. Okay. In what I saw in current form. Yeah. And perhaps gone on to other things because, you know, things don't happen. They don't last forever.

3:13:12They morph into something else, and then that morphs into something else. Well, do you ever think you're part of a reserve group where you'll get called back into duty? Yeah, well, if the cataclysmic thing ever happens, I would assume that that would be the case. So this is one of the most fascinating things about your whole story, is just recently, this year, in Les Espresso, some Italian weekly, there came out a story that references Project Preserved Destiny, and it comes out of nowhere. And this could be chalked up to some sort of weird, like, amalgamation of UFO lore, like your story being, you know, an important one.

3:13:55But it goes into a level of detail that you don't go into. So it's like, what do the authors of this periodical know about this project. They say this, and this is a translation. There are not only duties in Donald Trump's new agenda. Behind the scenes in Washington, there's a much darker dossier, the one on UFOs. And according to confidential sources, something very concrete is already moving. It's called Project Preserve Destiny, and it's much more than just a study program of so-called UAPs, Unidentified Anomalous Phenomena. Behind this name, evocative and disturbing, hides an institutional waltz around that risks redrawing the balance between the Pentagon and the White House.

3:14:40And then it goes on to describe that project as Project Preserve Destiny. And it's like, how does this Italian weekly know about your project? That is very interesting. This is maybe the strangest modern curveball in Sherman's whole story. In July of 2025, an Italian outlet called Le Espresso published an article which discusses Project Preserve Destiny and Trump's White House's involvement with it. This magazine is kind of like The Atlantic or Rolling Stone's dramatic Italian cousin. It has a long history of serious political journalism, but it's not shy about flirting with speculation and theatrical flair.

3:15:19It's a serious outlet, but we're not talking about The Economist here. Still, when they drop a story about Trump taking control of black budget alien programs, you don't dismiss it as trashy tabloid nonsense. The article claims that Project Preserve Destiny is not only real, but that Trump's inner circle has been in closed-door meetings with Pentagon officials, and they've decided to move certain special access programs, or SAPs, out of Pentagon oversight and directly into the White House, projects like Project Preserve Destiny. According to the article's anonymous sources, Trump sees the UFO issue as a kind of wildcard, a chance to brand himself as the president who finally tells Americans the truth about aliens, an opportunity I personally think he shouldn't pass up.

3:16:05The article goes on to describe six levels of secrecy, programs within programs, exactly what Sherman describes in his book. A black budget cover mission, deeply compartmentalized, insulated from oversight by other branches of government, but above it, a gray program core, above black, dealing with the alien issue. If you want to dive deeper into this mysterious Trump connection and what Project Preserve Destiny might actually mean for UFO disclosure, check out our sub stack, American Alchemy Magazine. I'm linking it in the description below. But now back to this crazy interview. It's fascinating.

3:16:44You know, I will say that out of all the presidents that have been read into, you know, black projects and gray projects, I would imagine this is the one that would upend the apple cart as much as he possibly could. And it might also be why he has not been read into it, too. I think there are certain presidents that the status quo within the government control centers that have decided not to read in a certain president and then other ones they have. I don't know what the criteria of that would be Well you would assume somebody like a George H.W. Bush who was director of the CIA would be like of a different variety maybe than Jimmy Carter But they also might do it in just in certain times when they actually need to do it If they don't need to do it then they don't do it So who knows I mean who knows how it segues with the White House Is the first Project Preserve Destiny base that you were at San Vito, Normani in southern Italy.

3:17:55That is one of the bases that I was stationed at. Okay. Well, thank you for saying that. I figured that was the one that was shut down. So we did a little searching from the images that you, you know. There haven't been any other bases that have been shut down that I was at? There might have been, but the overseas part. Come on, researcher. Where's the researcher? You talk about the white gold knot. actually talk about an elephant cage, which is one of these large, you know, antennas, and that exists there. And talk about it being 50 people and it was a smaller base. And so we figured it out. All right.

3:18:27Here's where things get interesting. After reading Dan's book, Above Black, I kept thinking about that elephant cage at the first base Dan was stationed at for Project Preserve Destiny. The so-called elephant cage was basically just a large structure which surrounded a huge antenna or receiver. And we now know this base was San Vito de Normani Air Station in Italy. In fact, here's a photo of it in his book Above Black. I did some research and it turns out this massive antenna was designed to pick up high frequency waves. Offit Base in Nebraska also has high frequency wave antennas and low frequency wave antennas.

3:19:07Were these antennas and the signals they received, somehow very important for the signals that Dan himself was trying to decode for the NSA. Were these satellites somehow aiding in his telepathic downloads? Did noise cancellation technologies, possibly working with the NSA in Maryland, provide some much-needed technological assistance in filtering out the non-alien frequencies from these transmissions? Who knows? But we do know that the CIA was experimenting as early as the 60s under Dr. Andrei Puharic with extra-low or ultra-low or sometimes called very low frequencies for telepathic alien communication.

3:19:48Puharic's work sort of met a tragic dead end. He was doing all sorts of crazy shit. In fact, he had a whole team of intuitive communicators he called the Space Kids who would constantly channel aliens. Puharic's work came to a standstill, but many have speculated that it was developed and is still ongoing today. So who knows, the entire electromagnetic wave spectrum is very, very large. Is there some slice of it that involves alien signals? Alien signals being received on these bases that Dan Sherman was then able to parse and download with his mind.

3:20:25and then what i you know i this italian periodical writing about project preserve destiny there has to be some sort of connection there there is that's very interesting i mean it's years apart but yeah do you think the vatican knows about this project i don't know i don't know if they would have a need to know about the project yeah yeah i don't What do you hope for the rest of your life? Do you just want to have a normal life from here? Well, I mean, I hope for the country or the world, really, that we find the truth. Whatever that is. And God knows, you know, today's society, the truth is whatever is being fed to you at that moment.

3:21:12We don't know what the truth is. um but it is my hope that we find out the actual truth behind our involvement with alien species in this in this world in our world history um i but i honestly don't think it'll ever happen yeah i honestly do not i mean the whole truth we may get we may get certain things that come out like this you know the the nasa just recently announced that they found some sort of life on Mars. Amazing. Yeah. And or or evidence of previous life. Yes. And and even that is amazing. Yeah. You know, but it's things like that that we might find or we might find that aliens have been here a long time ago, but are no longer with us.

3:22:02You know, we may find these little things. Well, NASA was also just determined to be a spy agency by Trump. And so you have to think with some of these little announcements, like there was already a meteorite in the 90s that, you know, Clinton came out with ALH 84001 that had polycyclic hydrocarbons on it or whatever. And so there's already this belief. And we know that Mars had a biosphere. And so if there are projects that exist like yours at the NSA where you're systematically communicating with aliens, this has to be some sort of slow drip disclosure. Like, oh, we found a little thing with some organic compounds on it or whatever you know that has to be coordinated yeah well my that's just my hope um and i i'm after this podcast i'm probably just gonna go right back into my hole i've already had you know since um there was a a book review that just happened on youtube just a couple days ago that it came across i have a google alert for my name and you know so whenever somebody mentions my name that comes up and that came up and uh so it's two people talking about the book yeah and and um just recently there has been a lot of chatter about my book yeah i don't know what kind of generated it and but it's probably what led you to it to communicate with me well i've been into it for for years now what do you think about where the ufo like disclosure stuff is now Like, are you tracking any of the modern UFO whistleblowers like David Grush?

3:23:36I'm not doing anything. Okay. I answer a Twitter every once in a while like you. Yeah. And that's about it. And one person posted a picture of me, a bad picture of me. And so I replied to him. I said, this is a better picture. It was a military picture. To the extent that my name comes up every once in a while, I'll go look at it. Sure. I'll maybe comment on it if I have a comment. but I can tell you it's ramped up. That's for darn sure. I mean, it's way more prevalent now. And again, I think it's because of social media. I mean, people like to talk now and whatever the topic is, they want to talk about it.

3:24:16And so that's just a good fodder for talk. Has this experience opened your mind to new modalities of physics and communicate? Like, does it make you think that what we think we know and the received wisdom that we're taught in schools is extremely limited? Oh, I don't know. I've always been interested in advancements and stuff like that. So when I do see an advancement or I see like that UAP thing that just with the rocket, I don't know, you feel with that? Yeah, the Hellfire missile. Yeah, yeah. That Eric Brose just showed in front of Congress. Yeah, I have an intellectual curiosity about it, but I don't necessarily correlate it with my experience.

3:25:07Only because there's just been so much over the years that people say, well, does that correlate with what you do? Does that correlate with... I have no idea. You're like, I don't know. I have no idea. I have as much idea about it as you do. Did Stephen Greer ever reach out to you? I've talked with him, I think, a couple times over the years. Because he has a whole cadre of, like, whistleblowers from, you know, the back. Isn't he the one that, he's the one that started that Project Disclosure? Yeah, Disclosure Project, yeah. That's what I was trying to get. Yeah, yeah, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

3:25:40Yeah, that, yeah. So they've been reaching out to you. They have. Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay. Not Stephen Greer himself, but somebody else. Now, Stephen Greer, I think him and I talked a long time ago. Okay. Um, but there's somebody else that's reaching out now that is talking about testimony and stuff. So, and he is in the position to get whistleblower, uh, immunity and all that. So. Okay. It's like somebody from the government or on the outside? Working with the government. Okay. Somebody on the outside, but working with the government to get to the right people, to give the right kind of immunity so that people can feel free to, to say what they want to say.

3:26:20Would you testify before? oh yeah you'd go under oath oh definitely but but um i would do it but it's not gonna for me anyway from my project so long ago i don't think it's gonna really reveal a lot of information but if you were called to go like in a couple weeks you'd go i would get i would give any information that i have yeah well that's awesome and i think it's a again for the audience to hear that level of confidence. Yeah, I mean, there's nothing, if they give me the immunity necessary so I can talk about and not worry about talking about the stuff that I, you know, worked on and similar to the Gray Project, there's no reason not to.

3:27:02I mean, it would be open book. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Under threat of perjury. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Well, this is the most nonchalant conversation I've ever had about alien telepathic communication. How shallant can it get? Well, there's a lot of drama and it's a lot of bluster often with these sorts of stories and it's refreshing to just hear these are the facts. But it's been an honor to speak with you. I really appreciate you coming out here and it means a lot. It's been fun. Yeah. What do you think? Final question. Bones and Spock. What do you think they wanted with humanity? Do you think they had any sort of intentions for humanity at large?

3:27:49Well, I think they were soldiers. I mean, not military, but like they were... Underlings. Yeah, yeah, they were just doing their job, so to speak. But I didn't ever get a sense of any type of anger or any type of not being gentle towards us, you know, having nefarious motives or anything like that. And so when I do see Hollywood project, you know, that aliens are just, you know, they're out to get us or whatever, I don't really see that that's the case. I mean, imagine being so advanced that you could coexist with another species and then not know of your existence. I mean, other than the ones that you want them to know your existence and be nefarious towards us.

3:28:44There's no reason to be nefarious towards us. Or to put it differently, we'd be dead already. Yeah. If they were. Yeah. Yeah. So I think that they just want the best for our society. And maybe that's why they haven't revealed themselves, because the whole Star Trek mantra, you know, don't don't interfere in other people's other societies. societies or or you know um uh because you you interject into their society something that would not have been there naturally so you're you're basically an enemy of that whatever that ecosystem is because it's not natural so maybe they're thinking like that maybe they want to not be as um interfering as as uh you well you don't want to be as interfering as you could be if you didn't have the um uh control you know they they control things so they're going to interfere to the extent that they want to interfere yeah and they haven't they haven't chosen to interfere more than they have so well speaking of star trek it's like the prime directive minimal minimal interference with pre-warp drive civilization yeah exactly so that's what i was saying maybe your names were apt exactly there's a little bit of a circle there right yeah um yeah so i don't think they have any um any bad feelings or bad intentions towards us I'm excited to see where all of this goes.

3:30:20I am maybe slightly more optimistic than you. I think we'll never get the full, I think like, you know, the quote unquote disclosure moment people think of in their heads is actually just the start of an infinite number of further questions. Say you were shown a saucer and a hanger at Area 51, that would beget like millions of more trippy questions where you'd be like, okay, how does it fly? Where did it come from? You know, so I think it's this never ending sort of bottomless soup. but I do think we're going to get more incontrovertible evidence over the next, you know, couple of decades than we've gotten prior to that.

3:30:56Yeah. I mean, it's inevitable to, at some point, other things are going to come out. I mean, you can't really keep stuff like that hidden forever. It's just not, it's not practical. But to the extent that we do get information, it's going to be, it's going to be a fun time. That's for sure. I agree. Well, cheers to that. And Dan, thank you so much for taking the time. It really means a lot. And I know you really never do this. So the fact that you responded to me means so much and entrusted me with this. And yeah, I think people will be really amazed at the story, but also how you tell the story and how just kind of nonplussed in a refreshing way you are.

3:31:40Thank you. Yeah. I want to thank your crew here. They're a good crew. Oh, yeah, they're great. Agreed. I want to thank Dan Sherman for his time here and to you, the audience, for making it to the end. Again, if you want a deeper dive on Project Preserve Destiny, check out our substack, American Alchemy Magazine. I'm linking that in the description. And if you want to see this story, get the airtime and attention it deserves. Please spread it far and wide. Spread it to people who can take action on its implications. Until next time, I'm Jesse Michaels, and this is American Alchemy.