This CIA Scientist Led Alien Contact Ceremonies for Elites

28:58And we have this notebook that he wrote everything in. It's really, I mean, maybe I'm sure you might know somebody who could look at this. I mean, I'm just making the film. I mean, I'm very - Well, we should see if any of it checks with actual science or math or - Oh, it's crazy. They would say, the nine, they would say, you know okay look you're contacting us through a psychic but if you want a clearer feed a clearer transmission you have to put the psychic in a faraday cage and on top of that you should tweak the faraday cage and build it this way and use this type of metal and use this they were they were telling him and constructing him how to like build the faraday cage in a specific way that would like help this transmission and it did whoa because you can hear the tapes it was a lot it was very like stalled speech and waiting and then when they did the faraday cage sessions it was like just boom they would talk so i heard that and i was like okay well that that's weird you know so because like again there's a lot of it that you could just say oh you know this could have been made up or whatever but when it gets to that it was very very specific stuff you know copper they're they're big on copper you need to use that and it needs to be you know these dimensions i mean really specific stuff and they would follow it so they were basically like following instructions from the nine and you see the results get better as far as their channeling you see the results get better and that again to me i just thought that's that's that's interesting because it's not just sort of like you know spiritual mumbo jumbo hand wavy stuff that's like totally unfalsifiable yeah it's like the literally like the transmissions are coming when you say that it's getting better it's just like more more gets channeled like more more information clearer yeah just sort of more precise and the other thing too was again it was this thing with copper where they would also say, okay, what you need to do is you need to get the, this is really crazy because of what happens later on in his story, but they would say, you need to have copper touching your skin.

31:19And so you would need some sort of bracelet or something that would constantly be touching your skin in order, again, for the transmission to be better and they would do that. And what's crazy is one of the space kids that I met and that we interviewed for the film, she whipped out this, this was only a couple of years ago, she whipped out this bracelet she had that was like a copper, a little copper plate on this bracelet that she said they all had to wear when they were doing their channeling sessions with him decades later. So the copper thing is strange. And Puharic obsessed over that. And that's the other thing.

32:00To me, being a little skeptical, I was like, well, someone of Puharic's academic abilities, clearly he wouldn't take the time and the energy to look into this stuff as deep as he did. He obsessed over this. He would go meet other academics, hey, does this check out? And And he really was obsessive about this being legitimate. And Phyllis Schlamer, who later wrote The Only Planet of Choice, which channels the nine. I think she talks about the nine with respect to messages around the earth being a bottleneck of consciousness. And other planets being more ascended. And these nine really trying to help raise consciousness on earth.

32:51which might sort of sound like a cliche, but. Yeah. One thing that they were doing at the round table was that this psychic, this one particular psychic would claim that at a certain time of night, they would see an orb and they would go outside by the ocean and they would see orbs. And this happened. And the only evidence I have is Buharit's own writing, because we have all of his journals. And he writes this in his journals where he literally says like, this psychic would just blurt out, you know, 11 o 'clock, you know, tonight, and they'd go out and they would see an orb. And I just thought that was interesting because there's so much talk of this orb stuff going on currently.

33:36I don't know a whole lot about it, but I just, that kind of rang a bell where I'm like, oh yeah, he wrote about that. And he did many experiments where he allegedly took photos, which of course, you know, weren't in the big stash of photos we had from back then, but he, he, that's what he claimed that there was like orb activity. This would have been, you know, early fifties again. Yeah. So trippy. Yeah. No, that, uh, almost sounds like Chris Bledsoe or something. These people who seem to attract these orbs and it would make sense because those people also seem to be sort of high sigh or, you know, you know, have higher kind of mind matter capabilities or whatever.

34:15There's some, seems like there's some sort of correlation there. The connection Lavenda makes is that all these people conducting the seance, bringing in these nine, maybe extraterrestrial beings, maybe beings that go to the nine Egyptian, uh, gods or whatever. We don't exactly know what these nine beings are, but it's like a council. And, and later the nine praise plays prominently because this channel or Phyllis Schlamer, gets all these messages from the Nine, along with a lot of the kids and stuff. But that all of the people in this original seance with these blue-blooded elites are also entangled with the JFK assassination, which is so crazy.

34:56To make a long story short, there's a seance that's held in late 52, early 53. I think it was the New Year's Eve of 52 to 53. And there are nine people involved in the seance. Now, these are not just some casual nine people you pick up like, you know, your neighbors or something, right? This was a DuPont and an Astor and a Forbes. I mean, everybody that represents the blue-blooded Brahmins of American society, old money people, were at a freaking seance, right? In the woods in Maine on New Year's Eve with Andrea Paharic. And one of them is the guy who was the inventor of the Bell helicopter, right?

35:37Right. So is that Arthur Young? Arthur Young. So Arthur Young is there with his wife. His wife is Ruth Forbes Payne Young. Right. She had a lot of names. She was excessively nomenclatured. And so you have, you know, Ruth Forbes Payne Young. She's a Forbes. She was married to a George Payne, Lyman Payne, and also married to Arthur Young. Dave Portnoy here. The wait is over. Football is here and so is DraftKings. DraftKings is now live in all 50 states. One app, every sport, nationwide. New DraftKings customers. Sign up with code SPOTIFY. Spend$5 to get$200 in rewards within 21 days. Includes all markets.

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36:50Terms at dkng.co slash offer. Limited time offer. Nationwide based on sportsbook predictions and free-to-play sports contest availability. Varies by state. So in that seance with the, you know, these kind of blue-blooded elites that Prover Rich is convening, I think one of the people who's close with Mary Bancroft, who's Dulles's mistress, is a woman named Ruth Forbes Payne. Yeah, Ruth Forbes Payne. And so she's a Forbes first. So again, go into the Blue-Blooded Elite thing. But I think her daughter is Ruth Payne, who takes in Lee Harvey Oswald. I know. And Lee Harvey Oswald is living with Ruth Payne and I think gets a job at the Texas Book Depository in Texas, in Dallas, through Ruth Payne.

37:34And then ends up, you know, maybe not being the lone gunman, but, you know, attempting JFK's life. And in her home, she opens her door to some refugees, you know, people who are recent immigrants from Russia. Lee Harvey Oswald and his wife Marina and their kids. Whoa. So they're living with Ruth Payne in this house in Texas. She gets him the job at the Texas School Book Depository. And so it's these weird entanglements where, and the Nine believed themselves to be sort of agents, or sorry, the group in the seance believed themselves to be agents of these extraterrestrials, right? Like to be acting on their behalf.

38:16and so like and i know puverich would stop at airports and try and meditate because he thought he would be bringing about world peace and that the nine would speak to him through his watch and stuff yeah and so i wonder sometimes was it all good or was it bad i mean i don't think you know the assassination of jfk was good he seemed like a great man who was resisting really dark forces yeah um so it's a strange story i just want to hear something really strange about that oh yeah So. Legend has it that in 1943, the Navy tried to teleport a ship in what's now known as the Philadelphia Experiment.

38:54And it kind of worked. It disappeared, reappeared, and then half the crew got atomically fused into the ship's walls. Others just vanished. No one was where they were supposed to be. Talk about a breakdown in communication. And you know who was leading the whole project? my favorite, the mid-century anti-gravity inventor Thomas Townsend Brown, who literally had a nervous breakdown that year due to the very poor communication among the team members. You know what that sounds like. Your team. Before you had Quo. This year, upgrade your system to a workspace that keeps your team from shattering across dimensions.

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40:15Try Quo for free, plus get 20 % off your first six months when you go to quo.com slash jesse. That's Q-U-O dot com slash jesse. Quo. No missed calls, no missed customers. Now back to the show. I want to hear something really strange about that. Oh, yeah. That's why you're here. Yeah, this woman who I got to know very well, who's in the film, she was Puharic's assistant for many years, starting in, I think, 63. Basically, she worked with him, I think, until the mid-80s. And she's amazing. She's from Hawaii, very nice woman, but she met him in New York. She was a student at NYU, and Puharic was working.

41:04um this is a whole other thing to get into but he had started his company there called intellectron corporation but she started as sort of an intern at this company intellectron which was basically a biomedical research company we can get into that but basically she told me a story that um she was working at intellectron the day jfk was assassinated and that these men in suits she says, came into the offices, went into Puharic's office, said something to him that seemed very serious, and they left. And she said the whole rest of the day, Puharic was out of sorts. This could be as simple as, you know, how horrible that the president was shot, or it could have been something else.

41:53But she was very specific to say, I remember this happening. It was very strange. But to finish the nine thing, basically, the roundtable ends in 57, I think, right? Meaning, for whatever reason, I mean, I think I know the reason, basically, he moved on to Intellectron, which I can talk about. But he claims that we ran out of funding, the benefactors lost interest, and it shut down. But all the while, he was getting money from the army. I mean, there's records of that. But so the nine stopped, allegedly. And I think Lavenda, I think, talks about this, but a lot of the early nine-related conspiracies start around that time, too, with this idea that it was a PSYOP or that it was this early psychological warfare experiment where can we get certain groups of people to believe in something and to what extent?

42:57And a lot of people think that that was like the nine. They think that's all it was. They think any sort of like real channeling is fake and that it was all set up as this sort of psychological warfare experiment, which there's reasons to think that that could be true, but that's where a lot of that starts. You know, I think that's possible. But you think about like, when did MKUltra start? It was probably, there's probably stuff going on before 52. But really, the Korean War is like when, you know, conventionally it's dated to. And the idea that they were that sophisticated at the very start of MKUltra, where they could convince these sort of elite members of society that they were in touch with these specific extraterrestrial beings and that those extraterrestrial beings were constructing Faraday chambers that were able to like make the messages they received more effective, like this elaborate sort of magic trick.

43:59That seems a little beyond the pale to me. It's a big mystery. I mean, even, I'll admit it, the years and years I researched, I mean, even I don't know, like a lot of people I talk to who are interested in this stuff and know about the film and so forth, like they think that I know all the answers. And I wish I did. Yeah. And it's not like I'm hiding something because I'm worried that, you know, I'm going to be a monitor. I just don't, you know, I know what was in the archives. And a lot of the film for me was like, okay, what, what do we know? What is a fact? And let's like work off that. And so it was really just like, okay, here's the transcripts.

44:40Here's what they were saying. Speaking of what are the facts, we have to get back to this Intellectron thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So is the implication of this story that this company had something to do with the assassination of JFK? Or were these men in tweed suits raiding the office, the CIA? And were they thinking that Intellectron had something to do with this? or so um so Puharich yeah he leaves the round table he moves to New York City or he moves to Ossining a lot of people know this in relation to Puharich because he lived there most his life upstate New York yeah it's uh you know an hour on the train north of uh the city you know Mad Men of course the show like I didn't even realize all the characters they all live in Ossining like Don I guess there's I remember watching it but there's some reference like they live in So it's a very wealthy area.

45:35And all of a sudden, Buharich has what's considered a mansion there, basically. Huge house. He moves there. He tells his family that basically he just got this contract to study basically more of what was going on at the Roundtable Foundation, but there were specific people who needed him to move to New York. So they moved there. I mean, his family life is a whole different thing he had um his his wife sadly committed suicide around this time really yeah he was very like you know distraught about that and and what happened i received a grim call from jenny's father jenny had quietly leapt from the hospital roof into eternity

46:23i wept for jenny i wept for my failure to keep her healthy and happy i wept for our three daughters who would never know a normal upbringing i cried out to god in crushing despair but so they moved to new york he starts this company called intellektron he gets a annie jacobson helped figure this out he gets a um a grant for three hundred thousand dollars which at the time would have been like at least a million dollars or more um from the atomic energy commission which is strange and we have all the documents that we found that prove that they went and visited him they gave him this grant so he starts this thing into electron which is basically labeled as a biomedical research company so they have an office in a hell's kitchen and again with puharic i just it's it's i have to to stress like there is always these instances in his life this one being the really the first but it was sort of the round table too where like all of a sudden he just has this company and this and the and these employees yeah and this fun you know all of a sudden it's just you know kind of expensive to have a big office in new york city and all this stuff and all this state of the art at the time electronic equipment and well it sounds like in classic intelligence world front sort of stuff well i'll get to have a huge hedge fund oh Yeah.

48:01He just always had, and it's always this company. And basically in, this was early 60s, now 62, 63. This is when he starts the hearing experiments, where basically he claims that deaf people would come into the office and they would do research on them. basically they designed a device which would enable deaf people to hear basically by emitting a certain frequency that would somehow bypass the normal way we hear and go directly to the hearing center in the brain. And it was this breakthrough medical discovery, which you know go figure goes completely quiet no one no one ever hears about it yeah um but that's when he first starts this whole you know radio frequency stuff voices in the head kind of stuff which again was under this you know we're researching on deaf people we're doing this you know in a medical sense we're helping people but that's when these you know men in suits show up.

49:15That's when, once again, he's getting contracts from Navy, CIA. Again, almost everyone that was involved at the roundtable was back in this Intellectron situation with him. And so that, I think the connection, I mean, I don't want to just jump to conclusions, but I think what I've often thought with this JFK thing and why to Melanie his assistant seemed like such a big deal is that it may have had some tie-in with a mind control sort of like a sirhan sirhan situation with lee harvey oz i mean i know that's like a pretty crazy bold claim but that's just what i've thought it's not because um yeah they were doing that this is we're talking and again this is something i don't think a lot of people know and i think people don't realize a lot of that MKUltra stuff happened much earlier, but they were doing this work in 62, 63 of like, send basically sending messages to, to people's heads, you know, and, and we have footage we have, I mean, it's, it's real.

50:27The people from the atomic energy commission, right. Very clearly in letters we found, like we went, Annie Jacobson talks about it, I think in her book, Like one of the guys is like, I don't believe you, you know, test me and just, and, and, and did the test on himself and it worked. And then it goes, it goes dark and Intellectron closes and all of a sudden it's onto the next sort of, you know, mysterious company. Deep Black Program or some other front company. That's really, really trippy. Is there any explicit connection between Lee Harvey Oswald and Intellectron or that sort of speculation on your part?

51:06I haven't looked, but I just think, you know, if you want to go there, it's like, like Lavenda says, the whole connection there at the round table. And then this weird incident where they seem to make a big deal about telling him about the assassination at that exact time, that exact year, they're researching ways to, to be able to send messages to someone's mind to do something specific, Manchurian candidate, et cetera, et cetera. apparently dullest did not want the fact that ruth payne had actually been at the summer house or whatever i think that summer right before jfk was assassinated yeah he did not want you know that at all on record i think mary bancroft like started to talk about it and he like you know he kind of acted like he didn't know what was going on when like you know he would have reacted earnestly if if he hadn't he clearly did know what was going on obviously dullest was probably you know among a very short list of people if you you know the intersection of capabilities motivation to to take out jfk dulles has to be on anybody's short list and then to further kind of steel man there maybe being a there there we know that jack ruby was an mk ultra patient yeah i mean like 95 percent you know like you have letters between jolly west and sydney gottlieb who's definitely the kind of architect of MKUltra, you know, and Jolly West was, you know, UCLA psychiatry, but clearly very involved in Operation Midnight Climax and maybe brainwashed Charles Manson.

52:38And he sees Jack Ruby, who never remembers killing Lee Harvey Oswald in his jail cell alone, no cameras, comes out and says, Jack Ruby has had a psychiatric break. And then Jack Ruby, you know, who is fully lucid, but just didn't remember having shot Lee Harvey Oswald, talks about Jews dying outside of his cell and just like literally cracks. So very, very strange, you know, possible connections. Well, the other really strange thing at this time was that Pujaric was working with someone named Jose Delgado, who you probably might know who that is. Delgado, an old friend of ours, a brilliant researcher from Spain, implanted radio receivers in the heads of bulls.

53:28Delgado has remote control of the animal. Do you realize the fantastic possibilities if from the outside we could modify the inside? Could we give messages to the inside? He was a guy from Spain. He was a researcher. He was involved with a lot of this sort of mind stuff in the 60s, late 50s, 60s. But I think he's mostly known as somebody who did experiments with implanting, putting an implant in the head of a bull and basically being able to remote control a bull and basically say go this stop go left go right and he was able to do it there's literally footage of of the experiment happening uh and puharic we later found out was was close friends as puharic says himself with delgado we found letters between the two of them uh during this time and it was nothing too sinister it was mostly like hey i'm gonna go to this conference are you gonna be there but they clearly were close i mean there's some people i met during the process of this who were like don't don't even go there and don't talk about the connection you had with delgado but you know i i was interested to know it's fascinating you have a pacify a bull and play the bull like a video game and that clearly was the heir to mk ultra which was mostly sodium pentothal lsd that sort of thing is chemical based at if in the early 60s we had chips that could control animals and you had heirs to mk ultra like mk often which were done i believe at the science and engineering institute um in the northeast as well yeah it's like, of course, you know, we're going to be way more advanced on that stuff now.

55:22It's, it's creepy to think about. It's one of those things you don't even want to think about it. Cause the second you do think about it, you get into reality being far weirder than we could ever imagine. So yeah, if you think, okay, they're putting an implant in the head of a bull, like you say, basically remote controlling the thing. Why wouldn't you try to do that to a human being? I mean, why wouldn't you and I think that was going on at Intellectron I mean I'm sure of it because there's this way too many there's way too many connections I don't have a document that says here's the experiment we did but that whole decade of the 60s was such a odd decade for buharachi was so like quiet like all there's all these records of the round table you know tapes photos everything and all of a sudden you get to the 60s it's like nothing really very little documentation very little you know photographic evidence of what he was up to and all of a sudden the 70s boom picks back up there's 100 photo so it's very mysterious decade and it was just it just so happened to be when he had this company in electron yeah with these very odd connections delgato the i think it's becoming super clear that and the other thing too yeah not to cut you off is i i've with all this stuff in this film i've gone to like the ends of the earth to try to track down and nothing absolutely nothing this place never existed in electron you would not find the only thing i ever found was there's a guy a pretty interesting guy actually his name is beardsley graham he was uh involved uh in nasa in the 60s early 70s colleague of buharach's but he was like i guess And he was somehow involved in Intellectron as like an outside consultant or something.

57:16And in his archives at Berkeley, there was like a couple documents that had, you know, an Electron letterhead and it was like correspondence. And that was like the only thing I could find. And even in that, it was nothing revealing. It was again, it was just like records and sort of like, you know, financial records, which again, didn't point to anything. Yeah. You know, so so there's just this place did not exist. But it very much. Crazy. Very much. Well, it's I mean, now I feel like it's one of these things that's slowly shifting, you know, and I think more and more people are going to start to recognize the fact that MK Ultra had a role not only the JFK assassination, but in the RFK assassination.

58:01You mentioned Sirhan Sirhan, who had written in his diary right before he shot RFK, just like over and over. It was like some neuro-linguistic programming was coming through him. To this day, he does not remember having shot him. He's like, you know, I must kill him, must kill him, you know, sort of thing. And you have RFK Jr. now, who's head of the FDA. He himself has gone deep on his father's death. I think he was 14 at the time. and I think he recognizes that he was actually shot from the back and not from the front. So there was this other gunman again, just like JFK. I think he thinks that, you know, MKUltra was involved.

58:44You know, this guy, William Jennings Bryan, not to be confused with the 1890s, William Jennings Bryan, um, was this kind of mysterious, deep statey figure who I believe was tight with Sirhan Sirhan. And so, you know, I think these things are going to start to come out that MKUltra was far more pervasive than we ever realized. And there's even a book called, I don't know if you know about this book, The Controllers by Martin Cannon. Yeah, yeah. He mentions Buharich in that. So this book is insane. What's the thesis of this book? Dave Portnoy here. The wait is over. Football is here and so is DraftKings.

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1:02:04Head to superpower.com and use code ALCHEMY at checkout for$20 off your membership. After you sign up, they'll ask you how you heard about them. So please make sure to mention American Alchemy to support the show. What's the thesis of this book? It's basically about this idea of the fabrication of alien abductions, right? That's at least a big part of it. Some of them being chip implantations done basically for MKUltra purposes. And people being tricked into saying, oh, you're like, this is your guardian angel or whatever. Well, there's a whole thing. We can go, we can get to that later. But the whole Inelectron thing, basically, to cap that off, it was, yeah, one of many of these very, to me, it became very obvious fronts.

1:02:57I mean, there's just no question about it, you know. that he had, and they were doing all that type of experimentation. Again, there's footage of them doing an experiment on a woman. There's no sound, but it's obvious what's happening. You can see, you know, she's in the other room, she's behind a wall, they're in the other room. He has his device that he invented in the early 60s called the TD-100, which I've told you about. And this basically enables like a certain frequency to be sent to somebody. And, you know, it's kind of like a situation where if you're exposed to this frequency, it's at a certain wavelength that only you can hear and anyone else around you can't hear.

1:03:44And this kind of ties into what he was doing later in the 70s. But they're doing an experiment on a woman using this, and it's very clear what's happening and it's very clear it's working this was this was like neural link basically and you could you could you could send or implant thoughts yeah to a person yeah and that's crazy and so how exactly did it where you played a tone and then you would well there's two things one of the things he invented back then too which again was who harsh says himself was classified and you've probably heard of this as the um tooth implant a device could be inserted it into one of your back molars, that acted as a transducer that could send signals across the facial nerves into the hearing centers of the brain.

1:04:32It took about a month of daily therapy and they would have their hearing improved significantly. It was extraordinary because it was a totally new way of understanding how we hear. you could send signals to someone secretly it had a lot of potential we gave a demonstration at the pentagon we fitted this device to this general and we had somebody out in the hall broadcasting and he said god damn it i hear it god damn it i It was basically a radio receiver that would be, I guess at one point it was, Puharich kind of says it as though you could slip on some sort of thing, like anyone could just kind of like slip this thing on their tooth.

1:05:27But in other instances, it was very specific about it being like a real cat, what do you call it, a molar, or something that would really be put on your tooth. And that would basically be able to receive a radio signal. It would pick it up here and it would send it through the nerves of the face that would basically connect to whatever area in your brain you register, you know, sounds. And so you could be, again, you could clearly see them doing this. And this was a short distance, like I said, a woman right across the room. And you can clearly see they're able to do it. So you can imagine if the research continued, at what length can this go?

1:06:11Can this be in another town? Can it be in another state? Could it be in another country? So that's what they were experimenting with. But so the first part of it was the tooth where you could send a message to the tooth implant, hear it in the head. And the second part was an offshoot of that where basically, from what I understand, you sort of bypass the whole tooth thing. And it's a very specific radio frequency that I guess you can't tune into like on a normal frequency band or radio. Do you know what frequency? No, he doesn't talk about it. That would seem to be extremely classified would be my guess.

1:06:51It has a lot to do with sine waves. I must say again, this is not my forte. A lot of this I stumbled into. But it was this idea that, again, you would bypass the tooth and the frequency would essentially just be sent directly to the head and be picked up in that same area that the tooth was essentially connecting to. Yeah. Just to also substantiate what you're saying to the audience who might think we're crazy. I mean, as early as Beethoven, he was deaf and he used something called bone conduction where he would bite onto a conductive rod while he was playing piano that would bypass his ear canal and the vibrations would literally play in his brain.

1:07:36And so he would like de facto be able to hear his own playing without actually kind of, you know, hearing it through his ear canal. Yeah. So that is a thing. There's a story of there's a kind of apocryphal, but I think substantiated story around Lucille Ball, who just I've heard about this. Yeah, it's in the telepathy tapes. And she had gotten a tooth filling or whatever, and she's driving and she starts to hear the radio in her head because she still has some metal in her teeth. I think there's a story with Puharich where some guy works at a metal mill or something. Yeah, that was his first aha moment is that they got a mental patient, a guy who claimed he was hearing voices, but his family's convinced he's, you know, sane.

1:08:19And we're worried because they want to put him in a mental hospital and we don't want that to happen. So, you know, can you check him out? So they bring him in, they get to know him. And yeah, he says, okay, I work at this metal factory where I guess basically he's like grinding metal pieces and this kind of thing. Annie Jacobson talks about it too in her book. Puharich's theory was that this metal dust had somehow collected on his teeth and in essence acted like a radio antenna. We found out he was tuned to station WOR in New York. And they put the mental patient in their Faraday cage, which blocks out all electronic signals.

1:09:03and the mental patient suddenly is no longer hearing voices, is like perfectly sane. And sure enough, as soon as we lock the door, the sound ceased. Opened the door, the sound would come on. That's pretty remarkable of Puharich to think that all through and to test it in the laboratory. And that kicked off like all of this research where it said, okay, well, if that's possible, like what else is possible with that basic idea that that's, you know, real. Yeah. And if you can bypass the ear canal with vibration, whatever is processing the audio ultimately in the brain, we know that you can turn molecular mass into frequency.

1:09:47Everything has a quote unquote resonant frequency. This sounds woo-woo, but what I just said is fact. Yeah. Could you then use some sort of electromagnetic, magnetic, you know, radio wave or some wave that connects directly to the brain. And that kind of gets in a freaky territory because you end up in sort of psychic warfare, you know, that's ubiquitous or whatever in widespread. Like, it's kind of weird to think about. But I mean, if you're saying that was possible back then, it's just wild. And then you mentioned sine waves. I just interviewed a guy named Dan Sherman. And you texted me when you saw the interview because you said it, you felt like it kind of comported with a lot of the stuff you had been studying around Puharj.

1:10:32If Puharj is doing this stuff in the 60s, then it kind of makes me believe the Sherman stuff a whole lot more, which was happening in the early 90s around messages he is downloading. But maybe it does beget the question, you know, is the Sherman stuff genuinely, you know, extraterrestrial or were people beaming messages that were extraterrestrial to test the veracity of the messaging or whatever through him? And I don't know. You know, I don't know the answer to that question. I don't think he was lying and I think the program is real. The genesis of it was in 1947. We came in contact with an alien species and in 1960, they started a project.

1:11:17It was called Project Preserve Destiny. and it was designed to genetically manage fetuses, human fetuses, so that they would have the heightened ability to do this particular thing that I was going to school for. And he said, I'm going to play a tone and I want you to mentally hum that tone. And he said that you will eventually feel a connection. The line will change. when I saw the sine wave move. I went, oh, okay, well, there's a mental disconnect there that that's not supposed to be happening. This is not possible. Yeah. Do you think that it was kind of a development from what you were looking into with Puhari?

1:12:05I'd have to imagine it was. And that's always the question, you know? You said there are a lot of sine waves. He literally says I had to flatten a sine wave. When I saw the sine wave move, it came into focus, this thing that I was doing in my head. that's why I reached out because, again, for me, a lot of this was, okay, I have all this information. I'm not a physicist. I'm not most of this stuff. But I'd have to imagine it's connected because Buharic, the way this machine worked as well had something to do with specific sine waves, very, very specific. He was always talking about sine waves. And so I can't imagine that that wasn't some sort of early interpretation of what he was talking about.

1:12:56And you have this machine where you're matching tones and stuff. I mean, that sounds exactly like Sherwood. Yeah, it's all tones. And then the thing with the machine is, again, and like you said, sounding crazy, for a long time making this film, I had to really grapple with that a lot because I knew what I was hearing and sort of not so much researching. There's a lot of stuff we got where like tapes of these experiments. So it's not just like I'm reading a report. You're hearing it. So I'm hearing, you know, these channeling sessions. I'm hearing these experiments. He's doing an electron. And, you know, you can just tell something's going on, something strange.

1:13:40And so you're right. I mean, I think like if that was happening in 60, 61, 62, I mean, i don't know and this gets transitions into the uri geller stuff which i believe is very much involved in that same sort of research um but how's that yeah well i think um it's my belief that uh geller was was sort of like a mind control guinea pig in a way there's a lot of context that would that would prove that that was what his sort of role was in this whole explain story that's that's fascinating well he um so basically puharic uh in the 60s we had intellectron and the thing is too with this device he invented the td100 it was called which was called Transdermal 100.

1:14:38But again, this was supposed to be this breakthrough medical device where people who are deaf can hear, think about what we could do with this. But it just goes like, again, he never talks about it. No one in his family, oh yeah, I wonder whatever happened to that. You would think that with such an amazing discovery, something would have come of it or it just like went went dark basically probably around 68 um he never talks about it again only way later in his life he never ever talks about it of course we learned he was using it with the space kids years later that nobody knew about that but um so he's the he's coming off the tail end of all the intellectron stuff right right when he meets geller like literally it was 1970 is when he first hears about Geller goes to Israel.

1:15:30Intellectron is still happening then. I mean, from what I understand, like it was still very much, you know, an operating company. So he's going to Israel to meet Uri Geller while he's still very much involved in the research of essentially sending messages to people. And he gets to Israel, he discovers Uri Geller. I mean, I think a lot of people know the story but you know geller was was allegedly this very uh amazing psychic guy who could bend bend spoons with his mind and read people's minds and do all sorts of things like that he could like uh hover his hand over a watch and then it would uh the hands would move and and all these kinds of things and so do you believe he could actually do those things or do you think that was stage magic or um all i can say about that is he did bend a spoon for us when we did the interview and i don't know how we did it whoa so that's all i can say it could have been a trick and you but i can't to this day figure out how he did it you know the easy debunks on things like that yeah yeah okay yeah yeah so all i can say is like yeah it could have been a trick But it was definitely kind of strange and cool, and he did do it.

1:16:47So Puharich, again, the story goes, Puharich was kind of smitten with Geller, and oh my God, this guy's an amazing psychic, I'm interested in psychic phenomena, I want to study him. So he brings him back. But what people don't really know, unless they read Buharic's book on Uri Geller, which is kind of like a rare book to come across, but he has this whole episode in Israel before he even brings him back to the United States where he basically hypnotizes Geller and, you know, the nine come through. Really?

1:17:51the whole nine thing comes back into the picture through Uri Geller. And all of a sudden, they're back, and he's channeling them, and he's communicating with them. But it's very strange, because Puharic, as I just said, was still very much involved in the Intellectron Company, which, as we know was experimenting with being able to send voices send thoughts uh to people and so one could assume that uri geller was a you know experiment in that way when the nine just so happened to reappear all those years later and it's also strange because i think a lot of people know like geller has claimed his involvement with massad and his israeli intelligence and all these things there's reasons to believe puharich may have been a double agent for israel in fact he says he's he says it really tape but he kind of says it in a jokey way and so i had always just stuck to me like okay is this a joke have you found any connections between him uh yeah israel yeah what what were the connections besides you're a yeller obviously um well he so we did tons of like FOIA requests trying to find stuff on him and like basically got nothing.

1:19:13But the only thing we were able to get was this big chunk of FBI documents, which is basically monitoring all of his movements in Israel, literally page after page. He just got here, he's leaving, he picked this bag up, he did, you know, in the exact years he's going there to see Geller. So there's that. And then multiple people who knew him, who never really said anything until much later in their lives, told me that he was Mossad. Again, I don't have a document or something that proves this. And then Puharich also mentions in a letter he was writing to, there's a good friend of his, this woman who kind of helped him with bookkeeping and stuff.

1:20:04And she was like his closest confidant. And he would write these letters to her all the time. It was very clear that they were close. He spoke with her very differently than other people, but he basically admitted to being part of an Israeli-U.S. mind control program that was happening at Aberdeen Proving Grounds, which is an army base. and I read that and, you know, again, what do you make of it? It's either true or for some reason he's making it up. I don't know why. It's fascinating. So he wrote that. And then in this tape, he kind of jokingly says, oh, I'm a double agent for the Israelis. And he also was always there.

1:20:58You know, that's the other thing. Like, yes, he went to investigate Geller, but you know he was even through the 80s like well after him and geller kind of parted ways he's always going there um on a lot of the channeling tapes that are happening in the 70s with the space kids he's he's referring by name to israeli generals this one guy uh harron yariv who was i think the head of army intelligence very you can look him up i mean he was constantly should we give this information to Yariv, always referring to him and other people high up there. So a lot of red flags, nothing, again, no concrete, you know, document or something, but it's strange.

1:21:47And I don't know. I mean, again, that's something like after all this time, I'm still thinking, okay, what was really going on there, you know? fascinating man what do you think when when he goes to israel initially to see geller in 1971 and he geller's kind of channeling the nine again is it like the nine are somehow like he has a protocol to like summon these specific nine extraterrestrial beings is it this cynical hypnotic technique that he's doing where he's implanting this idea of nine extraterrestrial beings? Or what do you think that is? Is he calling in something that exists in reality, these nine entities, or is he creating those entities synthetically?

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1:23:36First of all, just to quickly mention, like, this idea that Buharich is very, there's always two stories, right? So when he went to Israel for the first time in some lecture we have, he said, oh, you know, there was this parapsychology foundation, and they wanted me to go. So they scraped some money together and I was able to get a plane ticket and I went to Tel Aviv and that's how I got there. And then Geller himself said, oh yeah, no, he was sent by the CIA directly. He was consulting for CIA, that's why he came. And then someone else close to Buharich said, oh yeah, he was CIA, that's why he went.

1:24:17but in this lecture in fact twice in two separate lectures buharach when he he kind of tells the story to an audience you know and he says oh yeah they just you know bought me a ticket this foundation so you know again a little thought in my mind where i'm like okay who's who's telling the truth you know yeah i think it's obvious but um right with the nine i mean so yeah it all did come from from hypnosis that was the protocol it was a very you know your typical countdown from a certain number. Once you get there, you know, you're in a state where they can come through. And I do think, again, like I mentioned earlier, kind of having to accept some of these darker parts of the story, like I do think to some extent, like he was implanting this idea because you can, I mean, you can hear it.

1:25:12I mean, again, this isn't like speculation, like on the tapes, you can very much hear him saying, you know, is it the, not, you know, the type of like leading questions. I think that a lot of people say, oh, you know, you can't trust a hypnosis if they're doing this. And it was, it was, it was that it was very leading questions. And are you sure it's not the nine and oh, actually, yeah, you're right. It is. And that kind of thing. But what's so confusing is there's, there's a lot of other sessions you did where it was like, not like that at all, the complete opposite, you know, not leading at all.

1:25:46And the nine would still come through. Yeah. So that's interesting. Yeah. And that always goes back to the crux of Fuharich of like, okay, what was he? Yes, he believed in this stuff, but yes, he was also involved in very, by his own admits, you know, involved in MKUltra and all these things. So it's like, what? Believer, master manipulator. I mean, I usually, Clearly he was manipulative somewhat. I usually get to the end of these questions thinking it's like a yes and, like an improv or whatever. It's usually not like one neat solution kind of explains everything away. One neat solution that would explain everything away would be, you can think of the Archimedes lever of reality itself and its mind control, right?

1:26:30That would explain aliens, reverse engineer, so many things. um but then you you get into like the facts and the facts are just weirder than you think often and it's it's like well i actually think there might be these other beings that come in and certain cases he's not asking leading questions yeah but it's uh it's it's fascinating he also he isolates specific um extra low frequency waves that he thinks are particularly powerful as far as implanting thoughts is that right yeah there's uh and again this was interesting because his uh research into you know elf extremely low frequency you know that was much later like late 70s 80s he was very involved in that but i figured out like once again like this origin point of the roundtable foundation like he was researching this stuff back then like this very specific extremely low frequency that can, he figured out, like penetrate the walls of a Faraday cage.

1:27:34That was like the only, uh, you know, frequency that could do that. You know, they went on to use that frequency with like submarine experiments. So that he believed was like the frequency that could carry, you know, audio information to somebody's head. Uh, and he was very concerned that the Soviets had similar capabilities? Yeah. I mean, there's, you know, Project Pandora, which started in, I think, the 60s, which, you know, going back to Intellectron, that was right around the time this was happening, which was, you know, yeah, the same thing. The Russians had these sort of radio frequency weapons, which, you know, they did.

1:28:15I mean, that's all proven at that time. I mean, this is like pre-Havana syndrome stuff. And so coincidentally, you know, at Intellectron, They're doing a lot of that same stuff. I do firmly believe that Geller was some sort of guinea pig for these experiments because it's just too many weird red flags around this time that he meets him. And again, I could be totally wrong, but I think that there was just this, we need to experiment on a real human being with some of this stuff. And again, it goes back to this MKUltra, the LSD, giving LSD to unwitting people. At a certain point, with these kinds of experiments, you need to do it on a real person, or else you're never going to know how someone in the real world will react.

1:29:10And I think Geller was part of something like this, because there's a lot of experiments they did where there's a story, for instance, where Geller allegedly teleported. So he was walking down the street in New York City, 1973, I think. He claims he's walking down the street in New York City, gets a weird feeling, right? All of a sudden he wakes up and he's in Ossining, New York, which is, you know, however, 50 miles or whatever. And he crashes through the screen porch. There's footage, Super 8 movie footage of Puharich filming the screen porch after this allegedly happened. It's all smashed through, right?

1:29:57And Geller allegedly winds up in Austin, he teleported from New York City. And Puharich claims or told Geller, oh yeah, this happened. And then the nine did this basically you, since you were questioning their ability and their power, they said, well, we're going to do something that will make you, you know, never question us again. And they did this teleportation. Right. And the weird thing is again, like the length Puharich went to, to actually get a look, you know, again, people don't remember. This was like seventies. I get a load of film, you know, put it in the, put it in the camera. film, get the, get the film transferred and, and be like, Hey, look, I actually filmed when you, right after you flew into the window and here it is, it's, it's proof.

1:30:50So, you know, he's, he's, he's doing that, but I, I, that was just one instance of me thinking like, Oh, okay. Like this is a way to get somebody to believe that some crazy event like that really happened. And Geller believed it. I mean, he, he talks about it. He wrote about it. And I think later in his life he he started to question everything and he even came out with a statement on a radio show in like 2019 saying that buharic had experimented on him with with mushrooms and had experimented extensively with him uh uh with with hypnosis but again like that story is crazy and he and i think it's like okay like if you can get somebody to believe that they had been teleported and smashed.

1:31:38I mean, what else could you get someone to believe? And I just think it was all part of that type of experimentation. And Buharic himself, way later in his life, like I said, when he starts to kind of reveal things, he says himself, I was involved in a program and my boss was the guy who did all research with hypnosis and mind manipulation. So, you know, he was doing it. And I think a lot of the Geller stuff was just like, okay, we need a guinea pig here to see if some of these wild ideas work. You know? So wild. I think there's a story too that Geller tells around him meeting Wernher von Braun and Wernher von Braun taking him to a safe that contained some UFO artifacts, maybe from Roswell.

1:32:26Yeah. Well, Wernher von Braun, again, was somebody close to Buharich in the 60s specifically. Really? Yeah, his assistant, the same one I told you about who made the JFK comment, said, yeah, he talked to him all the time. What? So that was yet another person who was just kind of part of his Rolodex. But yeah, I think Geller said something effective. Yeah, he showed him some photographs of something from Roswell or revealed facts to him. And I think he showed him material. And I think he felt like he had a telepathic connection with the material. verner von braun takes me into his personal office there is a safe in the office he opens the safe i see a piece of metal i've never seen such a color pulls it out it's not heavy says uri touch this tell me what you feel now i put my hand on it and i say verner this is not from here he says you're right this is a piece of a ufo that crashed on our planet uh it's always like he he knew that it was not from here or something like he showed it to him and he goes it's not from here and he He goes, how did you know?

1:33:34It's so interesting. The other thing too, and this goes back to the controller's book, a lot of the stories, and again, keep in mind, this is all pre-coming to the U.S., going to SRI. Everyone knows that stuff. This is in Tel Aviv before any of that. And another story like this teleportation one, they're in the Sinai Desert. they're driving around in a jeep and they see a UFO. And Geller, all of a sudden, I mean, Puharich's book on Geller is fun to read in and of itself because it's just like a cool, crazy sci-fi book, if anything, even though it's supposed to be nonfiction. But he claims that this ufo lands geller goes into like a trance boards the the ufo comes back with like a pen and said or something like a pen and basically said you know oh these these beings told me to keep this because this will forever be proof that i i uh you know went on this craft but the same thing it's always like oh he's in a trance before this happens you know apparently and then it's that same idea of like he believed it and Puharic kind of substantiated, oh yeah, you know, we saw it land and we saw you walk on it.

1:34:58But then it always goes to that question, like why, again, you could just say, oh, well, they wanted to experiment with, can you get someone to believe in or just kind of framing it around this ET UFO thing. But it's always like, why do this? You know why why was he doing this yeah uh you know i don't because again there's no concrete proof oh geller was a guinea pig he was he was a subject like i'm just kind of putting the pieces together but it just seems to me that it's like let's take this ufo et framework and do these kind of manipulation experiments around that yeah and see you know see what what people can believe and You also get in a weird territory where it's like, does, again, the MKUltra thing just explain everything, which is like such a dark version of the truth, but it's possible.

1:35:53We have to entertain that. or is MKUltra actually converging on a technique that the extraterrestrials or NHI, non-human intelligence, already has mastery over vis-a-vis its ability to manipulate human beings. I think of one of the most credible cases for me is a guy named Mario Woods who is at Ellsworth Air Force Base in 1977 in South Dakota. And he was a missile security officer. and he's just like a really upright, great guy. And he thought, you know, like this sort of like B2 bomber was like kind of winking at him in the distance. He and his, you know, teammate or whatever, his colleague, Michael Johnson, go in this little Jeep and they follow it.

1:36:42They get there and it's this like huge like plasma orb that's glowing. It's red hot and it's the size of a Walmart. is the line he always says. It's sort of this crazy, iconic line, you know. And he ends up being transported nine miles away from the base, like behind a dam. And it's like, it's the next morning. He has no idea what happened. And all he, I think, had remembered was beings walking toward him saying, do not fear, do not fear. And then he gets a hypnotic regression and he realizes that, you know, possibly he boarded a craft. and what's really interesting is he says that after when he gets sort of you know debriefed they check his teeth i think he said that like the guy checking him now said that there was some sort of ambient radiation in his mouth or something from that time it's really sort of crazy um yeah that is the tooth thing is really strange and there's a lot online about um there's a story about an individual who changed his name, in fact, because he didn't want to be associated with this.

1:37:55But this was so post-Geller, right? So Geller, basically, they kind of split up. Geller wants to move on. And again, way later in this 2019 interview, he kind of opens up and says, yeah, I was kind of afraid. And he really opens up. I didn't know what was kind of going on. and I was suspicious and I just wanted to get away basically from this guy. But he was famous at that time anyways. So he leaves. Buharich is trying to find another subject to bring through the nine, he claims. So this is even pre-Philis Schlemmer, is right around because Philis Schlemmer was sort of the next channel that he discovers that brings through the nine.

1:38:44But before Philis, there was this guy in Florida where Phyllis was from. She knew this guy. He was part of a psychic class that she taught. And again, I've heard from a lot of people that this woman, Phyllis, was like a legit psychic, you know, knowing things about people and so forth. But there's this guy that she knew. She introduces him to Buharich. They do a bunch of experiments. Yeah, sure enough, he puts him he hypnotizes him and he is communicating with not the nine but it was some other being can't remember the name but anyways this guy says you know i got really really weird vibes you know etc but lo and behold he wakes up one day and realizes he has a metal filling that he never had and he goes to the dentist and says you know what what's going on here i i didn't get this done and they they looked and said yeah this was done um you know professionally there's no question about it and oh complete side note the guy that puharich ran Intellectron with was a dentist that he met in the army.

1:40:00So this guy discovers a filling he never had. He completely freaks out and leaves the group that is Puharic, Phyllis. And it's sad. And again, this always comes back to this not avoiding the negative stuff. Apparently the guy went crazy. He just had a mental breakdown. There's a couple other people in the sphere of this story that this happened to. But that's like a real story. And the guide, you know, and he brought it up to Buharic and they said, oh, you know, we don't know what you're talking about. We weren't involved with this. Or I think, you know, actually, I think what they said was, oh, you know, this was done by the beings, your talk, they wanted this to happen and they did this somehow.

1:40:48And so it's very bizarre, you know. um but that goes back to the i mean what you just told me is crazy because this was early 70s so there might be something going on with this this tooth thing and you know again i think the film does a good job of this or i hope it does is you know i don't believe or and especially don't want to believe that mk ultra is responsible for everything and all of this stuff because there's a couple stories in Buharic's life that, you know, do seem like legitimate sort of extraordinary encounters. For instance, in the late 80s, Buharic lived in North Carolina, and there's a story that a bunch of his family was visiting, a bunch of his cousins, and people who, you know, are very skeptical about all of this stuff, skeptical of Buharic's whole world, but some psychic that night or that day said later tonight, you know, I just got a message that like a UFO is going to show itself over the house.

1:41:55And so we have the video, Puharic's son, Andy, who's an awesome guy. He did this kind of like funny video where he interviewed like all the people who were there at this family gathering and said, you know, what do you think is going to happen do you think it's going to show up and everyone said oh yes or no but that night um multiple people saw this huge ufo and andy tells the story and he like he gets emotional telling it and he's a again a totally sane guy you know of course his dad was andre puharch but like he's he's very normal saying guy he said yeah of course you know the camera wasn't out because it was much later in the night and again pre-iphone of course you know you gotta run in and grab this bulky vhs camcorder but apparently like him that pogarch's son and two or three of the cousins all saw this huge thing is silently hovered over so wild and that and and his son again very emotionally says like that was the moment i said okay like i i believe in in this stuff and and i believe in in in things my dad did and he just had a very emotional reaction uh to that moment so it's stories like that where i go okay well you know what harge isn't running some mk ultra experiment on his family you know decades after all this stuff so so yeah i don't want to put this idea out there that you know i i think that way i mean again it's just there's too many red flags in his story that sure point to his involvement but then there's that story where even his cousin who didn't want to be interviewed or whatever but i did talk to him and he was like yeah that happened you know well i think there's something it's like everybody sees the world through a perceptual prism or container and i'm sure with his hypnotic techniques and with mk ultra and with implants and all these things you can break that container and then probably intentionally shade or manipulate what people experience.

1:43:58But the idea that there's nothing outside of that perceptual prism that involves other entities between man and God or, you know, whatever your metaphysical beliefs are, I think also involves some sort of hubris. Like, you know, you can, you can have both, but, um, it's, this is, I mean, this is one of the craziest interviews I've ever done, man. This is crazy. I mean, I'm, I feel like shocked, like listening to all of these facts. And I'm just thinking as you're talking about Puharj's son and this UFO showing up, what was night? Because I think of 1952 as the, you know, DC flyover, Washington invasion, like maybe the most intense UFO showing in United States history as far as mass media covering it, people seeing things.

1:44:45you know i actually recently met a witness from 1952 and and and he was pretty amazing and he remembers it and stuff he's one of the probably last living witnesses um amazing yeah but do you think that had anything to do with the seance because i think of the seance with you know the original channeling of the nine it was 52 do you know what month uh it was it was um new year's eve okay well i mean it was before then because the so the the again i don't want to engage in any sort of you know selection bias here but july 1952 was when it was the things showed up and so but a lot of that early channeling with the nod that was all you know 52 interesting yeah into 53 i mean it could have been and i told you like he he wrote in his journals about these orbs and one of the psychics would say, you know, go outside tonight and you're going to see an orb.

1:45:42So, you know. Well, every time I want to get away from like the occult having to do with UFOs, it's like, it's just so obviously it does have everything to do. And there's even a group called the Borderlands Society, which was - Oh, Borderlands. Well, which one? The Borderlands Research Society. Yeah. Hugh Harts was very involved in that. In fact, a lot of the recordings we have, not a lot, but some of them came from them. They had a bunch of stuff saved, actually. So there's a really amazing, like, kind of nuts and bolts UFO researcher who I think did some software stuff for SpaceX. His name is Richard Geldreich.

1:46:16And he has uncovered, like, a couple of UFO either crashes or appearances where the Borderlands Society knew about these UFO appearances before the military did, before the Army, before the Air Force. so and then you have you know this 1933 magenta crash which it seems like is getting increasingly corroborated david grush harold malmgren both talk about it and hugh angleton and james jesus angleton were there and you know maybe there's some occult stuff going on there yeah with the malta right you know who knows but you know puhart was a master mason he was yeah interesting And he tells a story in a lecture much later in his life about how he was always approached by these, you know, what he would call kind of dark occult groups and societies and people trying to like get him to join.

1:47:16And he didn't want anything to do with it and that kind of thing. Well, Wernher von Braun was also, I believe, a Freemason, and he had gone through all these weird neo-pagan rituals as part of the German space program. He was also close with Walt Disney, and I think they made a little movie together, and there's some Freemasonic symbolism there. There's Launchpad 33 in real life that he sort of created. And that, uh, my buddy, Danny Jones just did an interview with one of the last living Apollo astronauts, Charlie Duke and the number one moon landing hoaxer person, Bart Cybrell. And Danny on the phone with me is like, dude, I'm not sure that the early astronauts weren't MK ultra.

1:47:55And it's weird, you know, and it's like, you have, you know, a picture of Jolly West on the set of 2001 space odyssey. You have, you know, there is. yeah yeah yeah i think i did hear about that yeah yeah and so that's insane it is insane it is insane and and then you have these you know it's like the neil armstrong looking like you know he's in a hostage video joe rogan describes it like that you know um after he comes back from the moon and so you have to wonder if there's some sort of like weird my, you know, and if Puhar, I didn't know Puharich knew Wernher von Braun. You have one of the MKUltra architects in touch with the head of the American space part.

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1:49:25Event contract trading involves risk of loss. Predictions offer void in New York. Non-withdrawable rewards issued as$50 click to claim every seven days for 21 days. Terms at dkng.co slash offer. Limited time offer. Nationwide based on sportsbook predictions and free-to-play sports contest availability varies by state. Well, the other thing, too, with the NASA connection with Buharic is, again, in the 60s, he was doing, like, a ton of, like, contract work for all sorts of different agencies. So this is actually in newspaper articles we found, but they were doing telepathy experiments with astronauts.

1:50:01And Puharich claims this. I've never heard it. We don't have the tape. But he claims that before they went to the moon, they didn't know the surface of the moon, what it would be like, really. So they were saying, okay, how can we land a craft? Could it be hot? Is it cold? Is it spike? Whatever. So he claims that they sent remote viewers to the moon to get a picture of what it would be like so they would feel comfortable with sending whatever, you know, if they went, to send stuff there. and he says yeah you know somewhere in the nasa archives i'm sure there's the tapes we did where we recorded this psychic kind of remote viewing the moon and and he and he had the contracts of nasa like we don't we have one that doesn't say that but he clearly you know worked with them we have we have documentation of that didn't nasa also have a camp around with space children or whatever psychic yeah i've heard a lot about that um but i don't i don't know much about that i mean i know about obviously buharic we can get into that but yeah i've heard a lot about that that they're in the late 60s there's some somewhere in florida there's like a nasa thing with kids but i honestly i don't know i think gordon cooper might talk about oh dude gordon cooper was very involved with Buharic.

1:51:30So this is one of the, this is the guy who spent longer in the earth's orbit, you know, in space than anyone prior to him in the late fifties. Yeah. He went to Osinning like many times. And in his book, he writes about, um, going there, seeing experiments with the Faraday cage, seeing the space kids. Um, yeah. Why was he so interested? I mean, why was a NASA astronaut interested in psychic research? I don't know. I mean, well, I think Gordon Cooper, I mean, didn't he have some UFO stories or experiences, or at least he was open to talking about that stuff. We had some kind of craft flying overhead at Brigadier the Ted, flying the same kind of formation we'd fly in our fighters.

1:52:24Were they planes? Well, it turns out they didn't have wings. They were saucer-shaped. We never could get as high or as fast as they were, so I had to really positively identify them, but they were metallic-looking and saucer-shaped. So he was definitely interested in this stuff. Yeah, so he went up there. Everyone went up there. I mean, the whole Gene Roddenberry thing is crazy. Yeah, so the creator of Star Trek. So that's like something I read about and, you know, I thought, oh, that's interesting. But in Puharic's archive, sure enough, is the tape that no one's ever heard of this session that is kind of like crazy to be in possession of.

1:53:08But basically, they would do these kind of roundtable-esque channelings where, like back then, these prominent people at the time were now in mid-70s, would come there, spend time there, and they would do these sessions. And Gene Roddenberry went up a lot. and he makes mention on this one tape recording that like you know he says like like i've said many times in the past which would indicate that this wasn't the first time he was a part of like a channeling session with them but yeah we have the tape where it was um roddenberry puharic and phyllis schlemer was the channel the channeler and you know she he he does his thing he hypnotically regresses her.

1:53:51Um, she goes into a trance. She starts channeling the nine and Roddenberry is there. And it's like an hour or two hours of him asking questions about and that becomes everything the plot of star Trek or well, I wouldn't say the plot of star Trek had started. I think it would, I think people think of deep space nine, which that came out post these sessions and um that you know of course nine and then there's a character in deep space nine who's called vanod just like the early nine channeler so there's no question like that that's connected and they actually wrote uh i have it and um i don't know what will ever come of it it's a it's a long story but gene roddenberry wrote a script called the nine and it's all about he changed the names and locations and the whole premise is his experience of working with buharic and phyllis channeling the nine and we have an original copy of it and it's like amazing and from what we understand like roddenberry at the time was going through a lot with like i guess he was like drinking a lot and i don't know all the specifics but it just like it you know as as stuff in the in the movie industry does it fell apart or whatever and and it never happened but uh he was moved enough to write a whole you know 130 page script about about his experience and it's called the nine so trippy yeah and you have so we should make it maybe yeah there you go yeah you have a hit greg up if you're interested yeah i mean you also you know think about the star trek you think with the you know the galactic federation yeah that's mentioned in a couple of real world contexts too one of which being um you have haim eshed who you know has won multiple the highest you know national security awards in israel is basically the uh founder of their space program and their their equivalent of space force and was i think head of it for decades.

1:56:04And he just writes this autobiography where he talks about the Galactic Federation. And so do you think there's something like more real going on that in that, like the heads of various nation state space programs are aware of here? Perhaps. Does he mention anything about the nine too or who? No, I know. I thought maybe. Okay. Not specifically. Okay. But the other weird connection to Israel, Puharich, and everything was he was close with Itzhak Bentov. Oh, yeah. Who's, you know, a really interesting guy. There's some videos on YouTube of him. He's kind of like the Israeli Puharich. He kind of looks like him and, you know, they have the same vibe going on, but they were good friends.

1:56:53I don't know the specifics of how they met. Apparently, Bentov was instrumental in hooking up Puharich with Geller. I don't know the truth to that. Well, they definitely knew each other because there's photographs of Geller, Puharich, and Bentov in an apartment in Tel Aviv together. But Bentov is interesting because he worked for Israeli intelligence. I mean, that's a fact. And Puharich was, again, like I said, going to Israel a lot at that time. And he was always tape recording their conversations. Like him and Benthoff would sit around like you and I are right now, and they would record all their conversations, which, you know, is not weird necessarily, but also, you know, why would you do that and then save the cassette tapes decades later?

1:57:45So, you know, there's a lot of clues like that, that goes back to that Israeli connection. And, and Benthoff was one of a number of scientists who were being tracked at, you know, Puharic's house burned in 1978. To this day, no one really knows who did it, but it was a proven, you know, arson job by the fire department. And Benthoff around that time was also being monitored. Puharic was being monitored and there's this big like this circle of kind of his friends and colleagues were all claiming to be to be monitored be followed harassed and so forth um and there was some story connecting a possible israeli connection to this 1978 fire um but yeah that's a big big question mark i mean and bent off died in a plane crash yeah that's right yeah sort of super mysteriously.

1:58:53He was friends with a lot of the Stanford Research Institute and early psychic research pioneers and claimed to have this kind of theory of everything. He writes a book called Stalking the Wild Pendulum, where individual consciousness is kind of a pinched node of some larger fabric of consciousness or something. And a fascinating guy. Yeah, they were close. Like I said, there's a couple tapes of them just like literally talking and they would just record it and they would talk about all sorts of things, mostly, you know, their shared interest and consciousness and stuff. But, you know, then there's this other theory that Buharic could have not been a double agent and simply just a spy and going to kind of pick off information or, hey, we're buddies, we're into the same stuff, we should tape record our conversations.

1:59:44Like he was CIA and Ben Dove was Mossad or something. Yeah. there yeah but all i know is that stuff exists and you can put it together how how you want but you know i've told a lot of people and again it's not because i sort of fear for you know anything but we we really done maybe it's deliberate maybe we're not supposed to have found anything but we don't have any sort of like legitimate document or anything that really nail and i think that's what's interesting about the the film and the story in general is like you still question there's still research to be done into this because we don't have the definitive answer of what's going on we just have all this all these strange bread crubs over several decades that would point to well i think the most interesting you know pieces of media or journalism beget more questions often than answers especially if you're cutting to you know the deeper architectures of reality yeah and uh i often think you should be just kind of skeptical or distrust you know people who are like they're so sure it's just x or it's just y you know and in this case it's clearly this kind of murky subject but that i mean that makes it that makes it so fascinating right it makes you just want to go go deeper and uh yeah um i think that the sign too of the whole geller thing being like i mentioned earlier like him being involved involved maybe willingly in these kinds of experiments, you know, but he, he, um, yeah, he, he really opened up.

2:01:19I mean, anyone can hear it. Uh, I don't know. Maybe it's been taken down, but it was this radio interview from 2019 and he, he was very open about, you know, I was, I was scared. Um, and he always uses the term like Buharge made me believe this. He made, you know, and, and he, and he does credit Buharge says, look, you know, I'm, I, I love the guy. he helped me he helped me get to the to america um so it's not like he's he hates him or he speak but he's very clear like you know at that period like i was i was uh concerned about what was going on he mentions being pretty sure that uh buharic had slipped him the mushrooms so you know Now, And there's that.

2:02:03I mean, I don't think he's making that up. I think it was like all these years later, I think he wanted to come clean about what he really experiences, the vibe that I got from. He's a wild character. He has a very flamboyant online personality. He'll often make these videos directed at world leaders. So like Trump, don't push that button or Putin stand down or whatever, you know, I know what's going to happen. And he'll like predict the wild things happening. and um well he was doing that in the 70s he was like like again these this this idea that you could use this directed thought to to change somebody's uh opinion or change somebody's uh direction or and he talks a lot about doing that back then um i have a friend who worked at the princeton parapsychology lab and whenever i try to throw the kitchen sink of skepticism around like Like he's just a stage magician and he's, you know, I don't know how legit he is.

2:03:10He often said, you know, and I think they even have like some papers where they studied him at Princeton. And I think it's often, again, like these people have something that's a little anomalous going on. I agree with that. You know? Yeah, that's really actually my, again, with everything I said prior to him potentially being the sort of subject. But no, I actually firmly believe that he was one of probably, you know, a lot of people out there who have something. And again, it's just like, can you turn it on every time? Can you, can you perform at every instance someone asks you? I mean, no, I'm not a, I mean, I don't, I don't know, but I would assume like you can't do it a hundred percent of the time.

2:03:51Maybe you can do it 60 % of the time. But I think that about him because I've heard enough stories through all these people I've talked to and stuff who were like, yeah, he had something. I think he liked the idea of the showmanship, but yeah, he definitely had something going on. Speaking of people with gifted psychic abilities, who are the space kids? the space kids are uh well there's a lot of them and we only were able to track down and interview um one two three five of them but basically when geller was kind of blowing up this was like mid-70s early mid-70s uh apparently the story goes that these kids all over the world specifically in the United States and the UK and in China, which are just the stories that we were able to kind of look into.

2:04:53But these kids would see Geller on TV and all of a sudden like that would cause them to just spontaneously like do something psychic. Like they would pick up a spoon, it would bend or they would, you know, go into the room and the, the, the drawers would, you know, poltergeist stuff. Right. And there's a ton of newspaper articles at this time, which again, like, okay, it could have all been a hoax, whatever. But you know, it's like parents calling in, uh, the TV station, you know, Puharich claims like saying, what the hell is going on here? You know my kid just did this my kid just bent a spoon my kid just you know touched the the the refrigerator and it short-circuited you know all sorts of stuff and apparently it was because they saw him on tv and and something happened something clicked and they their psychic abilities just kind of like came out in that moment it's like a contagion of yeah the psychic yeah powers yeah Yeah.

2:05:56So that's apparently what was happening. And so Puharaj, of course, you know, learns this and he's very intrigued. So he starts to, you know, visit some of these cases of kids who are doing this. And eventually, I guess, he's so convinced that this is real and that these kids actually have this sort of sudden emergence of ability that he brings them. Well, again, a lot of people have this idea. There's a lot online about how he like collected all these kids, almost like an X-Men kind of thing, which is partially true, but mostly like he would lecture and, you know, all over the country and Canada and places and people.

2:06:43And we say kids, we're talking like teen, you know, early, apparently there were like some very young, you know, five, four or five, six year old kids. But the ones that we're dealing with in the film are all, you know, in their early twenties, maybe 18 youngest. but they would see him at a, at a lecture and they would, they would approach him and say, Hey, you know, we got to talk like I have, I have these abilities and you are obviously the guy who knows about this and I need your help basically. Like they would kind of go to him. So at that point he thought, okay, there's enough, there's enough stories and enough of these kids coming to me that like, I should start a research program.

2:07:28And so that's when he sort of collects like a large group of kids. I think it was like, again, online, there's all sorts of stories, but it was really only like maybe like a dozen kids, I think, give or take. But he kind of invites them to Ossining, where he's living and starts this sort of camp where basically they are just doing psychic research on these kids and i think again not unlike the earlier vanod roundtable stuff like a lot of conspiracy stuff pops up at this moment too because of the general nature of kids showing up at the house of a you know known intelligence uh connected scientists etc and so forth but um basically he collected them and um just started this camp where they did you know kind of went through the different abilities tested them and and that all led to getting back to the nine because a lot of these kids claimed they had some sort of encounter or or you know ufo experience and so buhar said okay kind of like grouped them okay all the all the kids who've had an experience here you know not and so all the kids that had an experience he would hypnotize them and allegedly the nine would come through even through these kids who most of which never knew about about the nine and and most of which were kids who like you you hear a lot with these experiencers who like they didn't want to talk about it you know they didn't want you know fame or they were just like, I'm actually scared and I want to know what's going on with myself.

2:09:21They weren't trying to do anything more than like, can you help me figure out what's going on? After you've looked at this for 10 plus years, do you think that the nine coming through these different experiencers, abductees, people who've seen UFOs represent something real that's sort of non-human or extraterrestrial coming through these people? Or do you think that these were sort of synthetically implanted or kind of manipulated by Puharic? I think it's, I don't want to say synthetically created. I think what was going on at this time, and this is, we're talking 74 when this started, 73, 74.

2:10:13and keep in mind this is right around the time the sri remote viewing stuff starts yeah and keep in mind how put off tells us that he went to puharic's house in ossining heard all about the nine and that puharic was apparently communicating with this thing called the nine wild and then didn't really say much has hal put off never talked about this no i mean in the film he does I gotta ask him. But he basically just tells a story about, well, quite frankly, he was quite closed off when it came to the subject of all this Puharich. So I don't know. I wasn't there at the interview. Someone else did it.

2:10:54I mean, it was great he did it. But he basically was like Puharich was more connected than anyone ever knew. Really? He sort of alludes to that. But he does say, yeah, we went up to his house. there's footage of him and Targ at Ossining sitting on the front steps. So my theory is that, and people have talked about this and it's out there, but I think that there is this sort of, and we know for a fact that Buharic was part of the SRI program. A lot of people put off himself, say, no, he wasn't. He just simply brought Geller and that was it. He disappeared. not true there's a uh a pay stub in puharic's archives that is a uh is from sri to lab nine who hired his lab from 73 whoa we brought it up to put off he said oh i don't who knows it could have just it's whatever it's nothing basically but to me that that proves he was connected because i think the story most people read is just like he brought geller dropped him off there and was just like, you know, have fun basically.

2:11:59But I think that Puharic's house, which was now called Lab 9, which again, like Intellectron and a couple others he had, which are no use getting into, but he just had these sort of like front companies, which I just think it's obvious, you know? So at this time he had Lab 9. And I think that Lab 9 was doing SRI research, you know on on children because essentially a lot of the tapes are are remote viewing there's no other way to look at it it's okay what's going on in this location uh what time is this uh such and such general going to be at this place uh when should we go here and it was actually speaking of adam curry i think it was actually adam who brought up this idea that you know, a lot of people who go into a trance or hypnosis, you know, there's a protocol, right?

2:13:00It's either like a pendulum or whatever it is, a countdown. And I think the nine and something, somehow like this, we're going to connect with the nine thing was like a way that these, it was an in, if that makes sense for some of these kids to, to sort of want to participate, because again, it goes back to, if you really want to test like a kid's, a real, you know, 20 year old person is a 20 year old, a better psychic than an 80 year old, you know, eventually you're going to have to find a 20 year old and do an experiment with them. And I think what was happening was like if you go to a 20 year old and say hey you know especially at the time with uri geller being famous you know whatever star wars this and that and you say hey you know do you want to be a part of an experiment where you can communicate with these you know these beings and you know i can put you in it safe and i can put you in this this hypnotic state and you'll communicate with them, like, obviously you would say, oh, that's okay.

2:14:12That's, that's interesting. That's cool. You know, you're not going to say, Hey, do you want to come be a part of a, uh, a covert, you know, mind control experience. You're not going to approach it that way. So that's my theory is that that was sort of his way. And one of the space kids whose name I don't, I won't mention, um, she, she basically admitted that, or she said something to the effect a long time ago of like the nine was basically just like this sandbox for us to or some analogy like that where the nine is basically just like this sandbox for us to to play in or something and i and again it was off it wasn't in the interview it was like one of those many phone calls we had and i always stuck with me so i think that at that time again you've got same years remote viewing experiments are starting at SRI.

2:15:00You've got the connection to SRI via some sort of pay stub going directly to Lab 9. And you've got all these young kids who on the tapes are doing remote viewing. So... But the question, I want to push you on this, is like, remote viewing is used for the U.S. from 72 to 95 and probably now to actually add to our intelligence abilities about real things, drop Russian nuclear bases, find hostages, you know, whatever. Do you think that this council of nine were real, you know, extraterrestrial or non-human beings communicating through these space kids? Or do you think the nine was being implanted and they were testing their ability to sort of manipulate thoughts and that was through the nine or whatever?

2:15:52And they had some, you know, I mean, clearly they did have some abilities to do that. The evidence would point to the latter. I mean, that's the best way I can answer that. God, that's crazy. And that would go back. It's very deflating, I'm sure, for a lot of the UFO. Well, it is. And again, like, I don't want to come across as this, like, negative skeptic person because I'm not. But again, it goes back to like, if you're trying to be serious and piece together the life of this guy that spans decades, like, and that's what you're hearing. You know, that's what you have. But what is, if you are saying some of the protocol to get people into this state involves saying, hey, you're contacting the nine and whatever, it's some protocol and it sounds like a hypnotic technique.

2:16:43But then some seem super open-ended and they just seem to connect with the nine. How do you sort of make sense of that? Well, I don't know. And that goes back to the kind of, you know, I think Jeffrey Mishlove brings this up of this sort of trickster element, the kind of paranormal phenomena where like sometimes they're tricking you and sometimes it's real, sometimes it isn't. And I think there was, you know, with Buharaj, like, again, it's always that question of, like, where did he stand with, like, is this real research that he passionately believes in and he's trying to come to some sort of, you know, reality of the ET phenomena?

2:17:28or was it just all mk ultra you know and again i don't think it was all mk ultra mind control stuff but there's some gray area there that is so hard to pin down because again in some of these um sessions and and this is strange is is that on some of the sessions you know he'll be like okay here we are with this space kid and in there and their mom is here and she's you know this is like the tape recording we're hearing and and on those sessions it's like you know typical okay the nine um the you know the world is beautiful we need to save humanity etc etc then there's other tapes that are like you know what time is the best to to remote view the kremlin so we can get into that you know so yeah so i think it's there was a way of like okay i need to kind of you know give an example to to maybe other people around to say hey look this is what we're doing okay see you set in on a session so now you know what it's like and then when those people aren't around it kind of gets to the the serious stuff is again what it this is what i'm you're hearing what i'm hearing it's all based off that it's not like really my personal um you know hardcore core beliefs.

2:18:55It's just like, oh, okay, this is what I'm hearing. I think anyone would kind of conclude that. But again, I think Puharic, and this is a big part of the film and a big part of my philosophy about him and his story, is I think he believed, I know he believed in a lot of paranormal stuff but i think he got sort of under the thumb of the uh you know intelligence world early on and i just don't think that he could kind of get away from that and i think you know you often hear it's like the mafia like you don't just leave and when you're when you're that involved as he was you know just say hey i'm i'm i'm good you know and i so i think that there was a lot of pressure on him to do some of this negative stuff that he may have otherwise not wanted to do.

2:19:52And I think that's like a big part of the film and what I wanted to kind of get across with it is there's so much negative conspiracy stuff about him out there. I mean, there's tons of it. Have you ever read the Stargate conspiracy, the book? It's really good. it's um it came out in the 90s and it was the first book that really talked about a lot like this this book had the story that i told you about the guy in florida who woke up with the the tooth implant and then this is the first book that really exposed basically saying everything he ever did was intelligence involved you you know he's he's an awful person he's an evil genius but uh you know it's not true and i think that i hope to get that across in the film and i think we do because like a big part of that that research i don't think he wanted to do i think he he in a way was forced to do it you know yeah and whatever this kind of amorphous blob that is the ufo legacy program that is always proverbially discussed but you know usually in a very kind of high level fuzzy ways i think that's probably the case with a lot of these people is that they were kind of sucked up into in certain cases they probably came upon really exciting scientific truths that were converging on things that, you know, some, you know, behind the, the, the iron curtain science, you know, uh, group in the U S you know, uh, uh, during kind of cold war secrecy era already knew.

2:21:22And, uh, and, and they would recruit these people and then they would probably be forced to, you know, work on things in contexts that they weren't particularly happy about and didn't feel idealistic about and i'm sure that that's the case with him because i again like i don't want to um come come across as someone who's trying to like put him out there because i'm not i mean like i got to know his family really well i'm like very close with them yeah and and they were great when i showed them the sort of final product which really gets into this stuff and they were like you did a good job because you didn't shy away from, from that.

2:22:02And I think, you know, you illustrated it well, but you know, they were even like, wow, there's so much in here. We had no idea about, like, we literally had no idea you, you're telling us stuff that we never even heard before. And so that just goes to show his own family was in the dark about a lot of it. But, you know, the nine again, like I just keep thinking, I think about it a lot. And And again, like the answer just is, I don't know, but what I've heard and what I've had access to that came directly from his personal records would indicate that it was a made up thing. Fascinating. Well, I mean, that in and of itself seems a little messed up, as does, you know, slipping somebody mushrooms or, you know, telling them they've been abducted by aliens and taken aboard a ship when they haven't or quote unquote teleporting them and throwing them through a window.

2:23:01And, you know, like these things aren't cool, you know. No, and again, like, I think if you watch, if anyone watches footage of Puhar, it's electric. He's the most jovial, funny knight. You know, like he's not this like monster person. And that's why I quite frankly think makes him like interesting and an interesting subject for a film because like he's complicated and he, he's, he's again, I think being sucked into these things that he would otherwise not want to do. And not to ruin the end of the film, but he basically admits that. He basically admits that is what was going on with him. And he warns future researchers, basically, don't do what I did, essentially, is what his message is.

2:23:46If you look at the Zimbardo prison experiments at Stanford or whatever, where these prison guards start to get really self-important, or Stanley Milgram's shock experiments. You know, it's a, and then you combine that with the, you know, the, the, the power of the CIA at the time, I'm sure you could get coerced into doing all sorts of things. And does that fully exonerate you? Like probably not, but it's a, yeah, I mean, I think the, the, the best version, which I think your documentary really gives is the nuanced one, which shows how somebody could get incrementally walked into a position like that.

2:24:25And there's just no question the level of how deeply connected he was to intelligence. I mean, there's a paper trail of it. So there's no way to kind of beat around that bush. Again, I've read so much online and there's a lot of speculation, but at the end of the day, those people haven't seen the materials that we had. so so interesting were there any other experiments they were obviously channeling they were using these sort of faraday chambers they had this machine that produced tones any other experiments that they were doing with the space kids specifically well here's what's interesting is that um and you see in the film like getting back to this idea of the nine being this kind of in point just to like get things, get things done.

2:25:17Uh, in the seventies, we're talking 74 through 76, you know, middle East war, right. Going on and Puharich and specifically Phyllis Schlemmer, he was still working with her then, but, and, and, and all the space kids, you know, They weren't specifically going on these trips, but they would literally have a session with the Nine. And they would do group sessions where it would be two people, Buharic and two other people, him and three other people, him and six other people. And that would apparently bring the message through more strongly and so forth. But in that time, they're getting messages from the Nine saying, you need to go to Egypt, you need to go to any Middle East area, you need to go to Russia, and all these places which would otherwise be very difficult for somebody to just go to during that period.

2:26:24In fact, one of the guys working with Puharich at that time, John Whitmore, he was a British guy who got really involved. He even says in an interview, you normally could not even get into these countries at this time. Yet Puharich, with his psychic, were going constantly. because the nine said you have to go here you have to go there and so he kind of hints at like well what was that really the nine or once again was buharic involved in something else that he had to be in these areas at this time you know under the auspices that this was a psychic you know this was the nine telling them to go there phyllis schlemer completely questions everything and you know, way later in her life, she did an interview, she said, he used the TD 100 machine on me all the time.

2:27:16I never knew what it did. I never questioned what it did. And so you just have to ask, like, how is it that Puharich is able to go to these places during that time, get into very specific locations, often involving very high ranking government people? And it's all just, oh, hey, the Nine told us to come here, so we're here. And so a lot of people speculate. I've heard stories of Christian missionaries who were actually spies and something like that going on. again it's uh interesting to go down that road to think about and nothing we have like concretely proves that but i just think like the more you listen to those tapes at that time and the more you just kind of put things together like it does seem like what if that was that was the cover and oh this guy is so crazy he actually thinks a psychic is telling him oh just let him go what a kook.

2:28:16And meanwhile, he's doing whatever he needs to do there. Yeah, it's using the stigma of the science kind of in your favor as a cover for something more vital that clearly was actually working and functional. And he actually on these tapes gives, this goes back to the remote viewing stuff of some of the questions that they're asking are like, you know, what is the codename that, you know, the Russian guerrilla soldiers are using so we then know what to pick up on when we hear this codename? So then that begs the question, why would an alien be like asking those types of questions if that's what you're supposed to be doing, talking to the nine.

2:29:04But to go back to the constant contrast is like, he really was a genuine believer because he would often go to the Great Pyramid in the same time and do all sorts of experiments there. And he just loved going there. He was obsessed with the pyramid. He was obsessed with the history, all the Egyptian god. So that's not - And there are specifically nine Egyptian gods. So that was something he was like obsessive about. We have tape recordings of him meditating in the king's chamber in 76. And he did experiments with one of the space kids in the pyramid. And they brought through this information. Apparently, they're channeling this Egyptian god and some pretty weird information lined up during that session.

2:29:55So then that goes back to like, it's almost like, okay, I have to, you know, do my job for the CIA and on my off time, I can go in the pyramid and do some cool stuff I'm interested in. That's just kind of what it seems because like, again, there's no mind manipulation, dark stuff going on there. It's very clearly him like, I'm going to meditate in the king's chamber. like well what does that have to do with you know mk ultra so i just think like and again this goes to like his death in the mystery book around that where i think like there was a situation too where he may have been you know on payroll for you know xyz intelligence agencies and going to do these things but kind of using that time to do other things he wanted and maybe that was he shouldn't have done that.

2:30:51And, you know, you think they took him out as a result? Maybe it's that. Yeah. I think a part of it is that he, he, cause again, he's going to Egypt, right? Because the nine are saying, you have to go here, you have to go to this location to meditate this and that. But I think he's going, okay, well, I'm already in Egypt and there's the great pyramid and I've been wanting to go in there anyways. So I'm already here. I'm going to go, you know, but he's there maybe on, on a mission and Hey, you know, don't screw around kind of thing. I think there was a lot of that going on. And his death is completely mysterious.

2:31:25What happened? You can see the stairway right through this window where my father allegedly fell down and they found him right at the bottom of the stairs.

2:31:37We don't really know what killed him. Well, so there's a couple of things. He was sick at the time, but not, I believe, not enough that would have caused this to happen. But basically, it was 95, and around this time, he was very vocal about his life. like he was doing these sort of lecture tours at sort of parapsychology conferences and stuff. And he was being very open about his past. And it was one of these lectures at that time where he said, you know, look, I'll admit it. I worked for this part of the CIA. My boss was the guy who was directly involved with all the hypnosis, mind manipulation.

2:32:26Who was his boss? He doesn't name his boss, but you know what? He might actually, let me think. he does. I have to think about it. Did you figure it out? Yeah, yeah. I know it. Trust me. It's just in my crazy head, Puharich head. But I'll remember it. But basically, and so he says, yeah, that's what I did. I was a consultant at the time. And so he opens up about a lot of that stuff. He literally says, I can produce in your mind the image of an alien experience. His assistant at the time was a woman who was on this tape that Dick Russell recorded I told you about when Buharich was in the hospital.

2:33:16There's a part of the tape where Dick Russell goes outside, I think they're having a smoke or something, and he's just kind of like, hey, look, give it to me straight. What's going on with this guy? And she opens up too, And she says, yeah, he told me about things he's done that he's worried for his life about things. She says he using flashing lights, using all of that stuff was able to create the UFO experience that that stuff was all created, she says. What? She was opening up about that on this tape. So he would like stage UFO showing up as well? Well, I think what she was getting at is what we were talking about with this controller's idea.

2:34:07I guess more implanting the idea that you've had an encounter or you've been abducted or something. Basically making the point he was involved in that kind of stuff, that kind of research. um and again you know you're gonna ask like why why you know like why was it always like the ufo thing but um but all that was going on like right before he died you know that tape was recorded less than a year before he died but um he he was found uh at the bottom of the stairs he fell and he he passed away and at the time he had all these um he was still and again this goes back to like what did he really believe he was still living with this group of like women who were like psychics apparently and he they lived with him and he was still like you know doing stuff with them or whatever but but conveniently that day they no one else was there at the house uh when they were usually always at the house and puharic has this like weird legal pad that he wrote like very soon before this this incident occurred where he he fell on the stairs where he's basically like outlining why he thinks he's being monitored he names people that he believes have come into his life who are who are there to basically harm him and take him out he claimed again this is either like the work of someone completely paranoid or somebody who's just totally telling the truth well it's right before he fell down the stairs mysteriously he claimed that they this this and again it makes sense because these psychic people would kind of like show up even to this day and be like hey you know you should study me and this kind of thing so he and he was a nice guy Again, so he would let people in and he would welcome them.

2:36:12And so he claimed that there was people like that who were actually basically out to get him and that they installed this ELF emitter in his television set. So when he would turn on the TV, he would get hit by this, you know, ELF that would be, and he, and he was a physician, he was a medical doctor. So he would know what was going on with his own body. And he writes in this legal pad, like, you know, I am, this is happening to me. I can tell he would test himself every day. Well, he also developed a lot of these techniques, right? They're using what he developed on him, on him. Yeah. I mean, if, again, if this were to be believed, which I quite frankly do believe what he says in this, but he basically is this legal pad and it's all these events kind of leading up to why he believes they're, they're out to get him basically.

2:37:07Right. But, um, yeah, coincidentally the day he's found, you know, there's no one at the house and, um, right before, not right before that, but a few years before, before, um, his death, he had been approached by the cia to head up a elf research uh department basically again he writes this i've i found some evidence to to prove that this this probably happened but there was apparently a department being set up just to to study elf um you know weapons and so forth again a lot of that was going on in the late 70s and he he said no and apparently some argument ensued and he said you know get out of here and and because they came to his house he's kind of recounting this in his notes and um the guy that he said came on behalf of the cia to talk to him as a guy we know was involved in cia who's that this guy named bob beck who's in the who's in the film um and he He was another Puharich type where he got roped into a lot of things I think he wasn't necessarily wanting to do.

2:38:20So that happened where he refused that and said, you know, no, you know, get the hell out of here, et cetera. So all of that stuff was leading up to 95 and he was found dead. Coincidentally, you know, the Stargate program ends in 95. I was going to, I literally made that connection in my mind, yeah. And coincidentally, this guy Grinberg, Jacobo Grinberg. Yes. Who, there's a great film, shout out to Ida, my friend. He made this great film about him. In 95, less than a month after Buharich dies, this guy disappears, Grinberg. when if you see the film, the story basically is he was involved in very similar research, basically was able to prove a lot of this psychic stuff is real.

2:39:09And to this day, they don't know what happened to him. It's still a missing person. Did he ever meet Pujaric? Yeah, they met. When Pujaric was in exile in Mexico after his house was burned, they met in Mexico. In less than a month after Buhart was found dead, Grinberg disappeared. So again, what do you say? It's all coincidence and you move on or you say there's something. So bizarre. Yeah, Grinberg, the whole thing about him is like he realized we live in a matrix and then he had left the matrix or something. But what's interesting about him is like, again, it's literally still like an open case.

2:39:57Like they've never figured it out. And of course, a lot of people say, oh, you know, he, he got sort of kidnapped by whatever government agency and they're using him. And you know what's crazy is on some random message board, this was like years ago, I saw a post that was somebody like, I know for a fact that Buharic never died and he was, he was taken in by the government and he's still alive and someone I know. and the weirdest thing is a i was skeptical of that but i i was like years later i remember reading that and i and i spent hours and days trying to find this mess but i could not find it for the life of me i tried everything i could possibly do and i couldn't i couldn't find it um so that was weird that's super yeah so it just got erased or something i get and but that was that's like the real theory of grunberg like again the doc is really good but there's like actually you know legitimate proof that like he he was sort of taken by by the government so that's what your friend who made the movie thinks that he was actually taken and well that's one of the theories that basically everyone involved in the story like agrees with because everything just points to like that so that happening so so all that was 95 january 95 was buharic's death february 95, Grimberg goes missing.

2:41:22Stargate officially ends in 95. Government puts out newspaper articles all over the news, you know, Stargate, there's nothing to it. It was all bunk. So, and keep in mind, Buharach at that time was lecturing about all of that and being honest, being open about all the experiments he did with, you know, Stargate. So I think Annie Jacobson alludes to it. Like, I just think it was this classic, you know, he knows too much and he can't be, he can't be out there talking and he, he's experienced too much. He knows too much and, uh, it's not good. So I could see them seeing him as a liability late in life, you know, maybe he feels remorse about some of the things that he did and he's speaking openly and, you know, they're probably just trying to accelerate the research in the, in the black.

2:42:16Um, what, What are some of the wilder testimonies of the space kids that you spoke to? So basically with the space kids, like, yeah, there were a lot. And again, the reason the film took so long, which, you know, to give myself credit for, because a lot of people are like, I can't believe it took you so long and this and that. But a lot of it was like just getting people to talk. Because, you know, you could imagine these people like don't want to. And again, this is what, you know, you hear a lot about this with the UFO abduction stuff. Like these, these people like weren't looking to be in the spotlight.

2:42:52In fact, they didn't want to be. It took about two years for me to basically earn the trust of these space kids who I now consider like good, good friends. But that's what took so long. and I always thought like in order to make a really cool film like you got to get these space kids it's like stranger things in real life you know like that's what would make this thing work and so I was just like convinced we got to get these these people and we got we got five of them but again there was like a lot more a few of them were like you know never reach out to me again I want nothing to do with this so what did they say I mean that's why five is amazing what what what did they say?

2:43:33so basically like, yeah, what I did was I, I somehow was able to track them down just basically through like in Puharic's archives and things. And again, on the tapes, like he, he would say a name or he would write their name. Well, actually, in fact, in one of his journals, he like wrote all the names of the kids at the time. So it's pretty easy to like Google people, but, um, yeah, a lot of the, the ones we got were, were again, after kind of talking to them and saying, hey, I'm trying to do a level-headed portrayal of Buharic. I'm not some crazy conspiracy person. After all that, yeah, they were really open, but they basically talked a lot about what it was like being at his house at that time, which again was kind of cultish, if you want to look at it that way in the sense that like other than the space because there's just all sorts of sarfati jack sarfati being one of them like him and his kind of group of physicists people would go up there it was just kind of really yeah like a hub of just any all these people interested in this stuff would just go there and like hang out for people that don't know sarfati is a physicist who is pretty well respected and studied under you know very impressive people who you know were Manhattan Project, you know, pioneers.

2:44:59And he has a model of time travel and warp drive physics. Yeah. And he lives in the Bay Area and he's very outspoken, loves to call people a schmuck. He's written about, in the hippies, saved physics by David Kaiser, this MIT guy. And so I didn't know he had any interaction with Puharich. That's amazing. Yeah, he went to his house. Because he also, I believe Sarfati, the way he got involved in this exotic physics that he ended up studying was he claims that as a teenager he was in some gifted and talented education program and he was he gets a call from the future saying you're going to meet the others you're going to be work on like building ufos essentially which he believes his work touches on building ufos yeah and in this is a guy who could keep up with you know any top theoretical physicist in the world like he's he's a real physicist he studied under Hans Bet uh you know at Cornell and stuff yeah and um he uh says he gets a call from the future and then and then you know they tell him when he's going to meet the others and then he ends up meeting Hal Puthoff like later or whatever and it's this weird synchronicity you know it's so strange so he's interacting with Andre Poover yeah well you know a crazy connection i just thought of um in that story so the sarfati story uh quickly is yeah he he got this call from this metallic voice which is what some of the um get what geller claims this as well actually but really yeah so he gets his called metallic voice that was some sort of you know alien intelligence but um i don't know if you remember his part of the story where his i think I think it was his dad or his uncle or something was involved in the army or army intelligence.

2:46:51And one of the people that he knew through a family member that was connected was this guy, Wilson Green. He brings up this guy, Wilson Green. And that guy, Wilson Green, was working with Buharich in the 50s at the round table, doing everything they were doing there. Whoa. So did you ever ask him point blank, hey, Jack, was any of your stuff, do you think it was seeded by these sort of mind control people? I mean, I think he's open about that being a possibility as far as I said. Yeah. But I just remember him bringing up that name in Puharj's journals. He has one where he's kind of listing all these people.

2:47:37That's when I first told you about the Townsend Brown connection. This is insane. This is the craziest thing to tell everybody about this. Well, in one of his journals, it was just him recounting, like, he would often go to D.C. for, like, meetings. Poo Hargewood. Poo Hargewood. And this is early 50s again, which, weird that the same year you're channeling the nine, you know, in your lab, you're going to D.C. to meet with all these people. But he would just, like, keep very meticulous journals about what he did, where he went, who he met. And he would just, like, hey, I met this person today for lunch, met that person.

2:48:12And so, yeah, Wilson Green comes to mind because he had something to do with, I think it was the Army Psychological Warfare Department. And that's the same guy Sarfati references. But in these journals, he mentions meeting Townsend Brown and spending the day with him. And it's very brief, unfortunate. Actually, maybe we could do this together. is part of the page that's like so worn you can't really like read what it says but it's it's kind of a you know a brief uh mention that he he met with with brown and spent the afternoon he says something like spent the afternoon with him to disgust a lot or something like this i know some kid who like helped i think it's called the vesuvius project and he helped decode this ancient papyri and so if he could do that hopefully he could get us this uh you know this transcript that's crazy so he met him and this was again i'm positive it was 53 was that that journal so yeah he was going there um so yeah that's how i found it and it brings up all these questions of like were people like warner von braun and brown's ideas somehow seeded by like mk ultra adjacent things like probably not because you have like you know warner von braun goes way back to like you know early journey like he's clearly like a you know a rocketry genius like you know as a young kid um was all was way into this like you know like in his in his teenage years um or was like you know if you think about like what would be one of the main use cases of mk ultra it would be like keeping secret science sort of on lock maybe creating some sort of cult dynamics around it wiping people's memories when they work on really sensitive shit like who knows and towns and brown to me obviously I'm very high conviction in his stuff the audience will give me shit because I talk about him all the time but I think he's like the godfather of American kind of you know in the black dark science like whole tech trees that come from anti-gravity or extended electrodynamics or fifth dimensional physics I think kind of arrives from yeah Townsend Brown and so I wonder I wonder what that meeting was like the time then was weird overall I think what people don't realize about the fifties is like, there's a letter between, I think it's Claude Shannon who invented information theory was at Princeton.

2:50:38Information theory is the basis of all modern computation. And William Shockley who invented the modern semiconductor, you know, Bell Labs essentially. And, um, it was a letter and he goes, you know, my, my friend, you have to meet my friend. He's really interesting. you know he's into all this you know interesting science stuff or whatever and it turns out he's talking about L. Ron Hubbard and so the point is like it's this weird time where the intersection between the types of people who'd be engaging in like bizarre seances ESP paranormal stuff that wasn't outside the Overton window like it is today yeah and so yeah anyway how would you speculate on do you have you speculated on the connection between towns and brown and nothing more than just they were probably interested in similar yeah similar things and and but it's odd because he said it was in dc so brown was there for whatever reason well brown was probably deep intelligence i mean there's a story of towns and brown engaging in a ufo crash retrieval And I think it's in the late 50s.

2:51:52And it's like, I think Hartford, Connecticut. And this like green glowing object that seems like it's losing mass gets collected by a professor there named Robert Brown. It then ends up at Moonwatch at Harvard, which is connected with Blue Book. and Robert Friend and J. Allen Hynek have possession of this material. And Townsend Brown walks in to Harvard, flashes his credentials and takes the material. And you hear stories like that, Tom, you have telegraphs that I think, or telegrams that his daughter I think has. I know this, I think, through this amazing researcher on Townsend Brown named Jan Lundquist.

2:52:34And I think she says that there's a telegram between William Stevenson, who's the inspiration for James Bond, Ian Fleming, Churchill's super spy who was coordinating with Wild Bill Donovan, the OSS. He was as high up as it gets when it comes to intelligence. And there's a telegram from him to Josephine, who's Townsend Brown's wife, because Townsend Brown had flown behind enemy territory, parachuted into Nazi Germany in 1945 to interrogate some scientists because he was an expert in all this stuff. And this telegram says, you know, from William Stevenson, your husband is okay. You know, he's been injured, but he's okay.

2:53:16And he's on his way back to the U.S. or whatever. So I can give you like 50 other stories like that. Like Curtis LeMay, I mean, his daughter said, I think on the phone with me, Linda Brown says, Curtis LeMay chases Townsend Brown down the stairs because he's so interested in his inventions and stuff. So this guy was like as deep as it gets when it came to the American intelligence and military elite. So it would make sense if Puharich was as well on the kind of the psychic vector. And maybe if all of this stuff is being coordinated at a higher level than we understand, and there's some spooky science stuff and the anti-gravity connects with the psychic stuff, nuts and bolts, like they all kind of, materials, they all kind of connect at the top.

2:54:00Those two guys seem like very central nodes. Yeah. And I think there's a lot of similarities with what you said, uh, you know, this idea of like flashing credentials and walking in play. I mean, there's, again, I could give you 50 examples of Puharic doing that kind of thing that I've heard. And so that, yeah. And I think like the journals that mentioned Brown and these others, like, I don't think these were sort of meant to be seen you know these were like buried in his in his records in fact like in the film you'll see like his his his assistant at one point kind of mentions this idea that like not not um not long before he passed away like he had made mention like these papers i have in my house need someone needs to take them i don't trust giving them my children for their safety and so i think this is stuff that was not supposed to be um read you know we're seeing it's amazing there's a lot of other names i researched them all he met with dulles i don't i guess i didn't mention that wild he there's he's literally again in the journal met he's like you know says something like uh you know wait it was in the waiting room for an hour and finally got in and we had we talked and so obviously you're up to something serious yeah doing that you're meeting with the third director of the CIA who yeah it's a while I mean if yeah if anybody was kind of running the government behind the government it was Dulles so yeah D um yeah some of the wilder testimony yeah the space kids yeah so yeah they so they just basically recounted a lot of like um what they experienced a lot of the channeling sessions so a wilder story is um uh this one of the space kids his name's jaime he's um from mexico city great guy and again he was somebody who would never have wanted to appear in a documentary you know like his life was totally fine you know he didn't need to talk about this but he did because event eventually he told me like if you're willing to like tell the real story like i'll talk because he knows like i did there's just so much like BS stuff out there about Puharich and everything.

2:56:18But, um, he told me a story about he, um, he was meditated at one time he was doing an experiment with Puharich's assistant, this woman who's in the film. Um, they were doing an experiment. They were meditating, uh, together and she, they were sitting in a room together, both meditating. And he says that at one point, she got up and she went over to him and she touched his forehead with her finger and when she did that this big uh blue ball i guess this like ball of energy as he describes it appeared next thing he knew he came to she was all the way across the room against the wall and he was back up against the wall and he doesn't remember what happened and the last thing he remembers is that she touched his forehead some sort of burst of blue light she flew across the room and he told me that and you know and he said look you know you can talk to the assistant like she'll corroborate this.

2:57:39And I did, and she did. And his theory was just like, some connection must have been occurring. And what do you do with that? Because something I learned, which was very bizarre, because this was another thing that Buharic didn't open up about until way later in his life is he says, and again, this is not me or speculation or making something up. He says in his own words, he invented this prosthetic finger that would have a chip with a certain ELF frequency that would emit from it. So when you touch somebody's forehead with this, it would be the exact frequency that would knock them into the hypnotic state they needed to be in in order to do channeling and so he could basically just like i could go like this to you and you would fall into the thing he says that one of the one of the kids says yeah i i remember that so was this instance with jaime and the finger something to do with that what was it not i don't know but that's one of his stories that was really bizarre any ufo related stories um yeah there was a lot of there were a couple like the classic, you know, right now there's a UFO that's sort of hovering over this session.

2:59:14And then some claim to have witnessed that there was a few stories like that. So that would be in the, like his protocol, like he'd be saying that or like, they'd be like automatically channeling. That would be like, apparently the nine saying that. saying this through them. Yeah. But then there was a lot of... But like, if we're to get super concrete about this, like, is that him beaming the message, right now there is a UFO, you know, above our head? Or is it like creating some weird protocol and then like what happens to them happens to them and we have no idea where that content is coming from?

2:59:56I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. It's strange because... Thank you. A lot of these sessions are very long, like some of them are literally like two hours long, you know, and it's, it's just, I hate to say like, it's kind of like, you just need to hear it to kind of like, to understand because it's just, it really is mind boggling because I constantly go from like, this is, this is an experiment. man this has been to like oh no this is like literally he's making contact with an extraterrestrial say you were to suspend disbelief entirely and just take the contents of the nine at face value how would you characterize these nine beings in what they want for humanity

3:00:51well it's like i said before um they they speak a lot about this idea that we have the ability of destroying ourselves you know and that if there's a way they can prevent that then they they want to and they talk a lot about nuclear bases and this kind of thing that you know we hear a lot about now uh they kind of say like we're kind of behind a lot of the sightings that that are occurring on nuclear bases um but then now i'm like you're making me think this shit's real the reason i'd love to be cynical about it but like the nuclear stuff has been going on since the 40s there's this guy bud clem uh there's this ufo and nukes documentary it's all based on robert Hastings great work in his book it's really good and I made kind of a you know another little thing with Robert Hastings on my channel but you have this guy Bud Clem as early as 1945 in Hanford where he's talking about these fireballs in the sky and they did this project twinkle which was deleted from the Air Force archives uh Lincoln La Paz this meteorite expert uh at University of New Mexico is talking about green fireballs that seem intelligently propulsed flashing that like aren't explained by anything prosaic.

3:02:08And just like the nuclear connection is so ubiquitous. And then you're telling me the Atomic Energy Commission gave him money. They gave him like over a million dollars. Yeah. So like if I were them, I'd be like, try to tap into what the hell is, you know, controlling. Yeah. Dude, this is a crazy rabbit hole. Yeah. Obviously. What was I going to say? You know, see, now you're entering what I've been in for like years. of this constant like wait a second now i think this because um there there was a lot of uh well you know the the classic thing where like with disinfor ufo disinformation they often say like some of it you know some real stuff is sort of peppered into yeah absolutely i think it was that kind of thing too where like maybe there was real you know et ufo related research going on with some of this mind control stuff peppered in just to throw off the course.

3:03:09Well, what connection did you just make when I said the Atomic Energy Commission? Well, what I was thinking was, there is, I think I sent you something about this guy a while ago. And I have to say now, I don't know enough. So I don't want to go too much into it. But there's a guy, his name's Oliver Reiser. He was a philosophy professor at University of Pittsburgh in the 60s. and 70s. And he wrote a book called Cosmic Humanism, which I've only read some of, but it's basically this idea, like his whole worldview is this idea that everything in the world is just run on frequency, tone, sound. He thinks it's like the universe is all sound.

3:04:01And that's how you know we that's how like inner interstellar travel works that's how all psychic stuff where it all comes back down to this you know sound tones again there's this big connection here with this tone stuff but anyways buharaj knew this guy they exchanged like dozens and dozens of letters but this guy's theory riser was you know the ability to communicate with you know et ufo is through tones through sound and he was like again so complex i can barely understand it but him and buharat would exchange these letters that were like you know two masters going back and forth about this stuff like diagrams charts math and like you got to think like they obviously were like on to something and again this goes back for the hundredth time of like buharat's real interest in this stuff.

3:04:58But Reiser, yeah, this was his theory, that the way to communicate with non-human intelligence was essentially through tones and through sound. And so you get Puharic doing that, basically, where he's using tones and sound with space kids. And can you, while they're in a trance, there's a lot of experiments where I'm going to play this certain tone and can you kind of like connect with that tone while you're in this hypnotic state and can you follow that tone where is it bringing you and what do you hear now all sorts of stuff like that um so i guess what i'm getting at is maybe there was some real research there that had to do with something that wasn't just you know a mind control thing because this guy riser was brilliant.

3:05:53I mean, in his obituary, Albert Einstein said he was like, you know, a genius. Is that true? Yeah. What? Yeah, Albert Einstein said like Reiser is, he had some quote about him being, you know, this genius. That's insane because Reiser talks about like parapsychology and mind batter stuff. And you think of Einstein as being totally opposed to. Yeah. Well, I think with Reiser, like a lot of guys, like he started doing more, you know, quote unquote legitimate research, but he got, he got obsessed with this, again, this, this theory of tone, sound connecting the universe. This is how everything works.

3:06:30And so him and Puharic were, um, exchanging a lot of letters about like, you know, do you have the ability to, to create such and such a tone and what, at what speed should it spin within the, you know, complex stuff, but would lead me as a lay person to think like, okay, clearly they like, they're talking about something serious here, you know? That's so fascinating. So, so. And the Atomic Energy Commission funding it, I find fascinating. Those same years, literally the same years he's exchanging letters with the riser. Yeah. 63, 64. Yeah. That's when he gets the contract from Atomic Energy Commission.

3:07:11I mean, it's all, there's, there's, it's a paper trail. And the 50s UFOs showing up around nuclear bases is this ubiquitous thing. It's constant. It's all over various CIA Air Force documents. You know, I sort of document a lot of this stuff. Hastings documents it. It was definitely a thing. In 64, there's a famous case at Vandenberg Air Force Base. The guy, a photo instrumentation specialist named Bob Jacobs. So that's fascinating. Very interesting. So, yeah, it just points back to this idea that I, you know, he was genuinely interested in paranormal, you know, research and UFO. I mean, it's not just like all of that was fake.

3:07:53Yeah, yeah. I just think it got muddled at some point. Yeah. And like, you know, maybe there's somebody like typing out, you know, what these space kids are channeling and then it's converted into this ELF frequency and it's transmitting to the space kids brain or whatever. Well, you know, it's weird you say that because on a lot of the tapes, there's mention of coupling to the computer data bank is often a term that is thrown around a lot. And this idea that there are some sort of computers involved. On which end, though? Because are they recording what they're saying? No, what you just said, somebody's typing something.

3:08:35Whoa. Because they often say— Well, now I'm back in the more cynical camp where it sounds like mind control. At one point, he said that referring to the channel being the person, at some point they will become a more reliable source of data. And there's a lot of talk about that. and again like what we have are tapes and and tons of them and hundreds of hours so like you just all you can do is piece together well what did the space kids think do they think that they were genuinely tapping into nine you know non-human entities or extraterrestrials or do they think that they were tapping into like some dude on the other end like a lot of them probably know the history that you know at this point well that's a great question and i think that's really the best way to approach it because they were involved firsthand.

3:09:28But I think to answer from what I know is I actually discovered things about what I'm talking about with these more sinister connections that they did not know, in fact. One of the space kids who I'm close with, yeah, she was shocked. Because again, what they didn't understand, what I think a lot of people didn't understand who were involved in this project is like information. I was getting information like as recent as like six months ago about things that I didn't know that were like really important to the story, like this guy, Bob Beck, who was most certainly CIA, who was at the, at Austin at the time of these exact space kids experiments.

3:10:12This one of the spaces, like I never even knew, knew that, like you're telling me this for the first time. So it's a mix between, I think, to be quite honest, I think a lot of them want to believe that what was happening was genuine. And I think they want to remember the time they had there as a positive time. and they don't want to go down the negative path or they don't maybe want to accept that the negative path may be the reality. And I mean, I would probably do that. So I think some of them want to just try to say, hey, look, we were told, we were talking to the nine, we were committing to the nine.

3:11:01We were, it was a good time. We were young, we were free, et cetera. And a few of them have become more open, like the guy from Mexico City I told you, where I think some of the things that I told them made them say, wait a second, I didn't know that. And all of a sudden, after all these years, they themselves are going, wait, what is that? And whose name is it? And they're starting to put pieces together that they never thought about. And they're starting to maybe think at least, okay, something else was going on. What was it? We don't know for sure, but I think they're willing to accept something else was going on back then.

3:11:44One of the trippiest people that interacted with Puharic, who he probably had plans for and almost seems like the subject of some kind of maniacal experiment, is Valerie Ransone. Yeah. Who is she? Well, I wish I knew who she was. She's like the most elusive person I've ever come across. I think she's the most elusive person in this whole UFO history. So basically what I do know is that she was working in the White House during the Nixon administration. And it had nothing to do with intelligence, or maybe it did, but it had nothing to do with intelligence or anything. It was some sort of program to, I can't remember, it was sort of like a snap benefits type program.

3:12:37It was something like this, but that's how she was involved in government, was she was part of a program like that. But apparently she became very interested in the UFO topic. She became very good friends with Gordon Cooper and she claimed to be a space kid, I guess. Like she claimed to be able to like channel information. and so she somehow wound up at Puharic's lab, Lab 9 in 78. And she is very, there's nothing there about her. There's nothing out there about her. There's a couple of people I know about who have been trying to track her down for years. They can't. Apparently she's still alive.

3:13:23But she basically, I believe, was extremely deep in the whole UFO thing and I think knew a lot. We have a tape recording of this guy, Elvis Starr, who was very, very high up. I can't remember his exact role. He was maybe head of the Army in the 60s, some high up role in the Army. But anyways, he was very, very connected. There's pictures of him with every president during the 60s, 70s. There was a tape of him saying, I met Valerie Ransone in the White House. She believes she was in touch with extraterrestrials. And he kind of makes a joke like, what do I know? Maybe she was. But that kind of firmly places her in that circle.

3:14:09Because there's a lot of speculation about what's true and what's not true. But this was a very legitimate guy basically placing her. What was his role exactly? He was, um, so from what I understand is, yeah, he was like the head of, uh, army something or other. And then he went on to become the president of like West Virginia university, but he was a part of all these like weird science, um, uh, companies in weird energy companies that were happening in the late seventies. like there's this this company called magnetic energies llc or something that valerie had some sort of connection to and this guy was like consulting for that or he was connected to a lot of like weird stuff basically and it's very little on him other than his more official kind of government roles but um he he has this because he was writing a memoir and we found this tape where he was kind of like dictating um the what he was writing and he says yeah i met her she was in the white house a lot um she knew a lot of people but yeah she basically she just claimed that she could communicate with ufos that were giving her advanced um information that she in effect had to pass on to like important scientists she predicted the failure of one of these rocket launches in the late 70s that actually did occur which i don't know you have to look it up that's so great what um oh wow so so so basically she was there but but the kicker is like she was also really involved in a lot of tesla technology research a lot of elf research and a lot of people who i know who were um including the space kids uh were like yeah she was like she was connected she was extremely mysterious we have no idea what was going on with her.

3:16:01Um, so they remember seeing her around and then, and then, but, and she was somehow like, do you know what role she had in the white house or no, uh, other than this guy, Elvis star, basically saying like, I, I met her on, on numerous occasions at, you know, inside the white house. You can look it up. I can look it up too. I, I, I'm sorry. I don't remember, but it was some program that she like ran in DC and as part of the Nixon administration, which again was not like involved in an intelligence thing, but that was her like in with that world. And she had some NRO involvement too? Yeah, Jacques Vallée is the only one I know who wrote about it, but he claims that he spoke with her back in that late 70s time, and she was doing some sort of work for the NRO and experimenting with satellites and messages from satellites to people.

3:16:55And I'm telling you, man, yeah, I mean, I've, tried to i mean the other film i'm doing which is a whole other thing but she's really involved in that and that's how i got into her because we have a tape recording of her um that was a phone call that was recorded but yeah if there's like any crazy enigma in this world that someone needs to like get to the bottom of it's it's her and uh i don't know if they ever will because i've certainly tried hard to and apparently she's still alive she's still alive yeah oh you gotta go find her man well i've i've i think i i think we kind of know where where she is and stuff but but it's really just strange she was very involved with gordon cooper and again he had started some company as well that was some like advanced energy llc or something and so from what i understand man, she was kind of like going around.

3:17:52And even Jacques says this, like she was just trying to create this network of high up government individuals and people to kind of like start getting interested in advanced technology, Tesla technology, ELF stuff. But all the while she claimed to be a space kid and able to receive information and channel information. So trippy. Yeah. And there's a guy, a kick green. He, um, I mean, I don't even care anymore at this point about saying stuff like this. Like he, I was talking to him for a while and he was like, yeah, I can't be involved in anything that mentions Buhar is just too controversial. And then he told me that he knew Valerie Ransom really well and that he was like, I don't know much about him again.

3:18:40I'm not trying to cover cause I'm like nervous or anything. I I genuinely don't really know. I just know, I've heard a lot about him being like a person who helps like abductee, people who claim they're abducted and stuff. So apparently he was doing that even back then with Valerie and he was working with her, which I don't know what that means exactly. But he was very, I mean, there's something out there online as that's, you know, very, you know, open where he talks about this, I think. But anyways, I was like, hey, I'm trying to do this Valerie thing. He was just like, yeah, no. Basically, don't talk to me again.

3:19:20And anything revolving that name, I can't be associated with. And every single person I've talked to who knew Valerie or had the same reaction. Yeah, I'm literally like, I wouldn't go there. You should just kind of stop now. And I've gotten all that stuff. whoa so like what's going on what do you think do you have it well so for first of all a little context for the audience kit green um deeply involved he's a cia psychiatrist and doctor i knew that but after all that stuff i don't really know like what his he's he's deeply involved in like i think the whatever cia files around biological interactions from you know people interacting with UFOs that was given to Gary Nolan in the mid-2010s.

3:20:12I think that was given by Kit Green, and Kit Green analyzed them alongside Gary Nolan. But he's like a longtime guy who kind of pops up in UFO lore, kind of akin to Hal Puthoff, but really seems to be as deep as anybody specifically on kind of the psychological kind of neuroscientific dimension of this whole thing. So what do you, do you speculate as to what Valerie? Well, yeah, I have a couple of things. But yeah, the Kit Green thing, again, I'm not, I did talk to her. I'm not trying to throw him under the bus. I just think he like, it's just another example of someone who's like, oh, her? Yeah, I can't be involved.

3:20:51Like you're better off like not going there kind of thing. So a couple of speculations. Firstly, and this came from someone named Bruce Erickson, who's this kind of like new age researcher guy who I know who's really cool. But he knew her. He knew Valerie really well. And he painted her in the same light as like, you know, she always happened to be there whenever something was going on. She always happened to travel with no issues, no money issues. She was always anywhere she needed to be. but he speculates that she was sort of like a spy and the type that would maybe sleep with somebody for information.

3:21:33And a lot of reasons that these men in particular don't want to talk about her is, you know, I don't need to say it. Maybe something happened, now they're married. They don't want to go there. Maybe that's why it's this very standoffish thing, which I can get that. But that was his theory because apparently she was really good. I mean, there's one photograph that I know, literally one that exists of her. That's not true. There's one online, and there's one that I have in the Puharach archives of her at Lab 9. And, you know, yeah, she was very good-looking, so that was this one theory, is that she was kind of, like, getting information on behalf of who, I don't know, but this, you know, you hear about that happening, you know, that kind of thing.

3:22:17So that was what this guy said who knew her well. That was his theory. But the other theory is that she was, again, with the same idea of being an attractive woman, was able to lure in individuals to help with funding for certain projects. and hey, I'm a part of this thing. You should be a part of this thing. Because again, she was always on these boards of these sort of weird energy companies and things like that. But the really weird thing is, I don't know if you've seen it, there's allegedly an interview of her on YouTube. So you probably know this YouTube account, Eyes on Cinema. Oh, yeah.

3:23:01So anyways, on there, this one day, this was not even that long, it was like a year ago, this video pops up and it says, Valerie Ransone describes her UFO experience. Anyone can go right now and look it up. And I was like, holy shit, that's her. I've never seen, again, there's one picture. And I'm like, oh my, this is crazy. In the interview, it's really bizarre. She tells us it's really weird. And the thing is, it checks out of what we know from her. And most of the information is from the Forbidden Science books, Jean-Flauille stuff. And, you know, she says, I was going to school in Northern Illinois in this interview.

3:23:41She says she moved to Houston. We know Jacques met her in Houston. The point is everyone I know who knew Valerie, I said, oh, this is great. A video exists of her now, sent it to them. Hey, look, here's Valerie. Like, can you believe this? No, that's not her. Nope. That's definitely not her. I knew her. That's not her. And I said, well, that doesn't make sense. Cause like everything she says in the video checks out to what we definitely know nope not her not one person and even this do you think they were like they just again didn't want to i don't know but it's just it's so goes back she's so she's the biggest enigma in this whole world every single one of them nope oh man what you know anyone who thinks that's her as an idiot and but everything she says checks out and in the video she tells this crazy story about how she had a ufo experience when she was a kid in college and her friends saw it.

3:24:35And then after that, she continued to have bizarre sightings of UFO sightings happened to her in her life many times. And then some guy, you got to see the video. She says this guy shows up one day to her job and is like, hey, you know, I want to take you. I can't remember exactly what she says, but basically this very mysterious guy shows up, they go out to lunch and he's like, you know, I know that you've had these UFO experience and he spouts all this stuff about her that no one would otherwise ever know, like stuff about her family. I know you've had, you had this UFO experience at this time in this location.

3:25:16So she's shocked, right? So then she says she gets into the car with this guy because he's driving her home or something and he gets a tape cassette puts it in the car and the tape cassette starts and it's a voice a metallic voice basically saying you know i am an a i'm an et and i'm here on earth on like a humanitarian mission and i we want you to work with us you you're going to be the first test human to work with us. And, you know, do you accept this position? And then the guy parks and she gets out or whatever. And she starts to question, okay, what's going on here? Like, was this real? Was this guy trying to like recruit?

3:26:10That's her story. and then after that is when all this stuff happens of her getting involved with buhar this was like early 70s she claims this happens and all this stuff that we know about is you know late 76 and 77 70 so that's her like origin story but apparently it's not her according to everyone who knew her oh that's not her that's not the right woman that's not even what she looks like so but and the tape recording we have this which is a recorded phone conversation the voice on that which is most definitely her sounds it's it's her on this video it sounds just sounds the same sounds like that voice so it's probably her yeah it's so weird so that's a rabbit hole in and of itself but but basically yeah she spent like a good amount of time at lab nine um and she brought gordon cooper there and then she disappeared and everyone who knew her was like yeah i have no idea what happened to her or they're just straight up don't want to talk about her i don't know it's really bizarre she wrote some book that's basically all this like channeled information that she got have you read it uh no well i i've skimmed it but i think you used to be able to buy it on some odd website which is now down but um it's very very strange and um when i was trying to get in contact with her i weirdly this is a crazy story i got in like this this guy got in touch with me completely out of the blue and this has happened a few times throughout the the making of this where like someone is like hey i heard you got you have buharach's archives i'm really interested in him and what do you have and we should we should talk and that kind of thing.

3:27:59This one guy, weirdly, right around the time I was trying to track down Valerie, he reaches out to me. And he's like, same thing. Hey, I know, I'm a researcher, and I heard your name about Puharic and this and that. And he's like, have you heard of Valerie Ransone? I said, yeah. He goes, oh, would you want to talk to her? Because I'm actually in contact with her and i'm like yeah sure and and so he forwards me an email which is allegedly from valerie which is like you know hey uh you know let's talk and this and that and and one thing led to another and this guy just completely ghost disappears right never heard from him again i look him up on facebook and again maybe i'm crazy and this stuff has gotten to my head but his facebook looks like the the the quintessential i'm making a fake facebook account yeah this isn't me kind of thing sure and that you know again i'm very level head that it really like spooked me out and then years later year this was we're talking probably tooth uh probably like 2016 17 i'm talking like you know not that long ago like 2021 20 he reaches back out to me and is like hey you know what's going on with the film and is there any way i can see it and hey did you ever talk to valerie if you want i can try to get and i just never responded to the guy again it was really strange wow and i tried the email that he had that he claimed was valerie's of course it like you know weird but well what happened when you emailed oh no nothing okay it wasn't it didn't kick back but i just never you never got anything i never got anything back ever yeah but you think you've located her yes and you're gonna try to interview yes that's amazing yeah well i hope you do man that would be incredible yeah i mean there's a lot to get in with into it with her but But that's the gist of it.

3:30:06And just the fact alone that Kit Green was involved with her back in the late 70s is really strange. So strange. Yeah. Early 80s. This is crazy. It's like there's a woman in the Nixon White House who claims she's channeling aliens and also happens to be on the board of all these sort of spooky science outfits that seem to stem from exotic tesla you know uh extra low frequency technology it's really wild and what i can say for for again for a fact is like in the late 70s there really was like so much um unknown about this potential like radio frequency weapons and it's on youtube there's a whole cnn special which came out a little later i think it was like 83 but it was kind of detailing all the research that had gone into like you know those those types of weapons and um you know radio towers that can beam a certain frequency that can agitate people and etc so that was kind of like the wild west in the late 70s there of like i think people trying to figure out what this is what can be done with it and he was just like in in the middle of that and um you know There was a lot of people running around researching that at the time.

3:31:24And I think there was also a lot of research happening of what's the potential of this stuff, what's possible with it. And Valerie was, again, interested in that and was involved in that. It's so wild. What are the implications for all of this on modern UFO disclosure, which seems to usually emphasize kind of aerospace contractors, secret, you know, nuts and bolts, weapons technology, faster than light travel, that sort of thing. What are the implications of the stuff you're looking into for that? I think it's, honestly, I think it's more of the same that we talked about earlier. I think there's some truth peppered into a lot of, you know, false going on.

3:32:21And I think that that still happens, you know, I think that's still going on. And so, you know, I think the implications are it's just still difficult to navigate what's real and what is not real, you know. And I think it takes people, you know, like you and others who are like really seriously interested in looking into this stuff and talking to people to kind of keep going with it, you know. Yeah, well, this is a, I mean, if they're, you know, it's a big puzzle that we're putting together. This is a huge piece that I think is missing for a lot of people, you know, prior to your movie. So I really hope people go check it out.

3:33:07I think it's going to be, you know, make, make a lot of waves and update a lot of people's understanding of this whole topic. And I loved it. I thought it was really well made. How can people go find it? uh well it's going to be for purchase um on you know itunes and youtube and that kind of thing yeah we're gonna do kind of like this uh release now with um age of disclosure okay we're gonna do like a you know you can purchase it for a certain amount of bundle situation yeah okay cool but there's some interest in in um some streaming stuff so any anything big that uh i didn't touch on that i should have had honestly like yeah probably but i mean you're you got you're a gift that keeps on giving man it's crazy oh oh um the one thing i was going to mention is um this is again an example of something like very recently like bobby ray inman yeah i know a lot of people are talking about right now i called him because because he was uh head of uh naval intelligence i think during this exact time um that buharj is doing a lot of space good stuff like late 70s into the early 80s and a lot of ELF stuff.

3:34:18And I just called him straight up. And I introduced myself. How'd you get his number? I found his number online. What? Yeah. I kid you not. It was one of those classic white pages sites where it was like a bunch of different numbers. And I'm like, none of these are ever going to work. And I was like, hello. And it was him. It was one of them. Oh my God. And he was pretty nice. But I just straight up was like, hey, have you ever heard, you know, the name Andrea Pujaric? Do you know Bob Beck? because those are the two working at that time um with the space kids and he was like no i've never heard the name and he was really nice and he was just like if you come across anything more concrete you can call me back and and um but i just figured huh maybe he knows something because we know we know naval intelligence at one point uh was like a big funder of buharage not not only back in the 50s, but going into the early 80s as well.

3:35:11But anyways, he didn't. That's what Harold Malmgren always said. He said the deepest core was the ONI, Office of Naval Intelligence. They really knew the most about this stuff. Yeah. Puharich was in with them very early on, and he continued. In fact, there was a scientist working with Puharich at this time, Elizabeth Rauscher. She passed away, but they got like this huge grant from the the oni and i was like you know looking everywhere to try to find dog she has a huge archive at berkeley of all of her research and i i had someone go there and look and we couldn't find anything but but um you know they they were working with a lot of people then um but yeah inman uh didn't come up with anything so yeah well he might have reasons to withhold information as well.

3:36:04He was the, I think, deputy director of the CIA and the director of the NSA at the same time, I believe. Yeah, something like that. Oh, the other thing, yeah, the last thing I'll say is not unlike Valerie, one of the space kids who we did an interview because we couldn't find her, but she's on a lot of these tapes. There was this woman named Sharon. on. So, um, you know, Sharon with two R's and like Valerie, you know, huge question mark. Everyone who knew her then was like, she was this very legitimate, real psychic Puharich. Apparently we'd bring her around, show her off to people in government and academics and just say like, look what she can do.

3:36:50She can channel all this advanced information. He was always working with her there's pictures of her and she just disappeared and everyone who knew her back then was like you know it would be amazing if you found her because she they're convinced that she was pulled into a you know stranger things montauk project type project where like she was the real deal and she was sort of pulled into a project like that that's why she's just kind of like wiped off the face there there's nothing about her anywhere again i went to the great lengths to try to locate her, nothing. People don't want to, like Valerie, they don't want to talk about her when you bring her up.

3:37:28So that was another example of like, okay, maybe there's some reality here because it's just so bizarre. And like multiple space kids were like, yeah, I knew her well and I wish we could find her. Like she was a friend of mine and she disappeared. Just like she was, the whole program was a feeder maybe into something deeper. Yeah, there's a lot of conspiracy stuff like that out there. But people think that his, yeah, Buharic's lab was, was that. So. Do you, does this add to your conviction? You know, I think even the makers of Stranger Things say that, uh, it's based off of, you know, the Montauk experiments.

3:38:04And I think it's pretty well established that there were some experiments in Montauk, Long Island. Does this add to your conviction that, I don't know, you hear all these things around gifted and talented education, you know uh kids who who have psi abilities yeah being taken into secret national labs facilities often associated with the atomic energy commission or federally funded research and development centers like patel memorial institute and others and um you know they're they're told to like you know how do you interact with this exotic piece of metal or uh you know pick a card or you know things like that does this add to your conviction that this was happening in sort of a widespread way oh yeah buharach himself um again if you choose to believe you know what he says he openly says i helped locate these kids he talks about it i mean he says like i was the person who would say you know yeah this you know this one checks out and they would move on to wherever they would move on to um he talks about helping other countries with this the uk he said he traveled to the uk and helped them locate children with sci-abilities so it's all that it's all that gray area you know yeah and you you have to ask why this stuff is coming back into vogue like you have the telepathy tapes top the podcast charts in the entire country yeah and part of me is thinks it's a beautiful amazing thing and obviously in my opinion i think i don't think it's all a psyop i think that some of these autistic nonverbal children are actually they do have really amazing abilities it's unfortunate that some of them like this woman that went on danny jones um i think are actually faking things the mother of one of the kids and she clearly was peeking past this blindfold which It's just so sad and what a poor representation of, you know, again, what I think is an underlying real phenomena.

3:40:09But does it make you ask questions around why is all of this stuff coming back into vogue? It feels like if you were to take an index of aliens, psi, and psychedelics, and you were to, you know, like say it's like synthetic derivatives, like an ETF or something. If you were to invest in this in the late 60s, early 70s, you'd like lose a lot of money into today. But now if you were to invest in these things five years ago or something, it just feels like they're all taking off. I know. It feels like the trend is like, are you cynical about that? Is there, I mean, maybe even to take that ETF analogy further, are there financial or corporate interests behind the repopularization of some of these things?

3:40:59Because a part of me is extremely idealistic about them coming out, because I do think it touches on kind of deeper architectures and nature of reality. And then there's another part of me where I'm like, it's got to be coming out now because of some military industrial complex reason or something. I don't know. I mean, I think, I certainly think this film is going to help, you know, put some pieces together about the history of all this stuff. And I think the fact that it's coming out now is interesting because of all this, you know, this resurgence of interest in it. But I know what you mean.

3:41:35I don't know. Like, I talked to a kid who claimed he was part of the GATE program, and I won't say his name, but now he's very vocal online about his involvement in that and what he did. and he wanted to talk to me because it was so similar to the stuff the space kids did that he read about but i don't know what's i don't know what to believe yeah you know with that so it's just i don't know i'm in the same i'm in the same boat as you i don't know what what the motives may be but i think that buharic was certainly extremely important in this whole world and And the fact that there's never really been something like on him that's out there is exciting for me, obviously.

3:42:19Yeah. I think it'll raise some eyebrows. I think so, too. Raise some eyebrows, maybe ruffle some feathers. But, you know, you're on the right path if you do that. But, Greg, this is an honor, man. This is a lot of fun. And one of my, honestly, like, I love information dense podcasts, especially ones that are uncorrelated from other, you know, I love the stories. You know, I saw a thing and I was in the bed and I wasn't, you know, they put a chip in me. Like, that's, it's fascinating. But it's always hard to sense make after that. Like, how does this fit into some coherent tapestry of what's actually happening?

3:42:56I love this interview because you just, to me, again, you added this big puzzle piece that seems to be missing as far as this whole story and obviously begets a hundred more questions. But I really hope everybody checks out the movie and thank you for being here. Thank you, man. Appreciate it. Awesome.

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