The Massacre at My Lai | Hunting Down Calley | 3

0:00American scandal uses dramatizations that are based on true events. Some elements, including dialogue, might be invented, but everything is based on historical research. A listener note, this episode contains descriptions of violence and may not be suitable for all audiences.

0:31It's April 20th, 1968, at a U.S. military base in South Vietnam. It's been just over a month since the massacre at My Lai, and the men in Charlie Company who were there that day are all handling it differently. One of them is Private Charles Butch Groover. He sits alone at a battered metal table in the mess tent, a half-empty beer sweating in his hand. His eyes are unfocused, fixed on nothing at all.

1:00Gruver takes another swig, trying to drown out his thoughts when he hears a familiar voice. Butch! Gruver blinks out of his daze as Ron Reidenhauer steps by his side. Reidenhauer is a 22-year-old who shipped out to Vietnam at the same time as Gruvener did. He sits down. When was the last time we saw each other? Hawaii? Yeah, good old Schofield Barracks. You still a door gunner? Yep, started in the 70th Infantry, then the 11th, about to head out to the 51st. they've got me moving around like no one's business. Well, it could be worse. Where'd they stick you? Still with Charlie Company? No, they're back near Donnie now.

1:37I got rotated out last month. Wish it'd been sooner. What do you mean? You haven't heard? About Pinkfield? Crawling with Viet Cong, right? Yeah, well, there weren't any when we got sent in. You really haven't heard? Ridenour shakes his head. Groover glances around the mess hall and takes another drink. Oh, God, it was this village called Milai. Intel said everyone would be Viet Cong, but the only ones there were women and children, some old guys. Ah, some folks got hit in the crossfire. No, I'm not talking about crossfire. I'm talking about lined up in ditches and then executed point blank. Jesus.

2:12I saw this one boy. God, he was tiny. Three, four years old. He was just standing there by the trail with these big eyes, staring around like he just didn't understand. He didn't believe what was happening. Then the captain's radio guy opened up on him. Full burst, blew him away. You can't be serious. You think I'd joke about something like this? No, I guess not. Man, it was so bad. One of the guys in our squad even shot himself in the foot just to get medevaced out of there. That's heavy. Why didn't he just refuse? Why didn't anyone stop it? We were getting direct orders. To shoot kids? From who?

2:46I didn't see this firsthand, but guys I trust did. They said Lieutenant Callie was ordering them to round up the villagers and shoot them. How many? I'm not sure. The village had to have been 300 or 400 people. I don't know if any of them made it out alive. And command is just covering it all up. There's got to be an investigation or something, right? Groover shakes his head. They're calling it a successful operation, Ron. Successful operation. Man, these were just women and kids. In the days that follow, Ron Ridenour can't shake the story he heard from Butch Groover. The idea of innocent civilians being slaughtered for no reason eats at him night after night.

3:28And so he begins a quiet but relentless campaign to chase down witnesses, gather testimony, and then blow the lid off a secret the U.S. Army would rather everyone forgot.

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5:27From Wondery, I'm Lindsey Graham, and this is American Scandal.

5:51The My Lai Massacre was one of the most horrific war crimes in American history. Over the course of a single morning in March 1968, U.S. Army soldiers killed more than 500 unarmed Vietnamese civilians, including women, children, and infants. And then the cover-up began. Commanders filed false reports, journalists were pressured to lie, and the official story painted an atrocity as a major victory. But not everyone stayed quiet. In the months and years after the massacre, there would be those who risked everything to expose what really happened. This is Episode 3, Hunting Down Cali.

6:32It's November 1968 at a surgical hospital in Chu Lai in South Vietnam. Ron Reidenhauer walks down the narrow aisle between the beds, searching for a particular face amid the wounded men. The air smells faintly of antiseptic and mildew. Fluorescent lights flicker overhead, casting a cold sheen over the cots lined in cramped rows. Reidenhauer's army service is almost over. He's due to ship out of Vietnam by the end of the year, but there's one person he needs to talk to before he leaves. He's been chasing rumors of a soldier who didn't join the killing at My Lai, and now he thinks he's found him.

7:09Private First Class Michael Bernhardt is propped up in bed on a sweat-stained pillow. His legs are raw and bandaged from jungle rot, a brutal infection that eats through the skin. Reidenauer pulls up a chair and introduces himself. Then he explains why he's there, and without much prompting, Bernhardt starts to talk. At first, Bernhardt's voice is flat and detached, but his memories are vivid. He says he watched villagers herded like cattle and machine-gunned in ditches. He saw children shot at point-blank range. And he names names, specifically Lieutenant William Calley, the man who had been giving the orders, and Captain Ernest Medina, who Bernhardt claims came up to him after the massacre and warned him to keep quiet.

7:54Bernhardt was terrified for his own life, so he nodded and agreed not to say anything. But now he knows he can't stay silent. Reidenhauer shakes his head. After he first spoke to Butch Groover six months ago, deep down he had hoped Butch was wrong, that the chaos of the operation had twisted his memories. But since then, Reidenhauer had spoken to three other members of Charlie Company, and now Bernhardt. They all say the same thing. My Lai was a massacre, and it's been deliberately covered up. So even though Reidenhauer ships out the next month and returns home to Phoenix, Arizona, he doesn't forget what he's learned about My Lai.

8:32Groover, Bernhardt, and the others trusted him enough to tell their stories. But they were all terrified to speak out while they were still in Vietnam. and at the Army's mercy. But now that Reidenhauer is back on the relative safety of American soil, he's determined that those responsible for the massacre are brought to justice. In March 1969, a full year after My Lai, Reidenhauer sits down at his kitchen table, lays out his notes, and begins to write a letter. It's a five-page account of what he believes took place that morning in Vietnam. When he's finished, he sends the letter to more than two dozen officials in Washington.

9:07They include President Nixon, 23 members of Congress, the Secretaries of State and Defense, the Secretary of the Army, and the Joint Chiefs of Staff. Then he waits. At first, nothing happens. Most of the recipients never even acknowledge the letter. But one takes it seriously. A congressman from Ridenour's home state of Arizona reads the letter and is concerned enough to forward it to the Army's Chief of Staff, General William Westmoreland. Ridenour then receives a letter in return from Westmoreland's office. It thanks him for bringing the My Lai matter to their attention and says it's now under investigation.

9:43Ridenour feels like a huge weight has been lifted from his shoulders. While he's horrified about what happened in My Lai, he's still a loyal soldier. He hasn't taken his story to the press or leaked it anywhere else. He wants to believe that now the top brass is looking into the allegations. It means there will be proper accountability at last. And in late April 1969, the Army Inspector General's office does launch a full inquiry. A veteran officer named Colonel William Wilson is asked to head up the investigation. His objective is simple, determine what happened on March 16, 1968, and whether it merits a criminal investigation.

10:21Over the course of the next month, Wilson speaks with all of the men who gave their accounts to Ridenour. Then he meets with Charlie Company commander Ernest Medina, who gives his version of events. Captain Medina claims that the 11th Brigade's Colonel Oren Henderson has already conducted an official investigation and found nothing wrong. But Wilson can find no trace of any such report. So he calls Colonel Henderson to Washington, D.C. to set the story straight. On May 26, 1969, Henderson sits down in the Inspector General's office, across from Colonel Wilson. The walls are blank and the lights are bright.

10:57It's not an interrogation room, but it feels that way. Henderson sits in a stiff wooden chair, his officer's hat laid neatly on the table in front of him. Wilson thumbs through a thick folder of notes. The silence stretches between them. Then Wilson looks up and begins peppering Henderson with questions that are answered with practiced ease. Henderson admits that he conducted an informal investigation, but he repeats the official line that there was no civilian massacre. Instead, he insists that officers assure him that there was a brutal firefight that morning. When asked about helicopter pilot Hugh Thompson, whose account contradicts that story, Henderson suggests that Thompson is young and emotional.

11:37Likely, he was simply overwhelmed by the chaos and confused by what he thought he saw. Wilson listens and takes notes, letting Henderson talk. But the longer the interview goes on, the more Henderson begins to contradict himself. He eventually tells Wilson that there was actually another, more formal inquiry into the claims of civilian casualties led by Lieutenant Colonel Frank Barker, but nothing came of that probe either. Unfortunately for Wilson, he can't ask Barker himself about it. Not long after the My Lai operation, Barker was killed in an aircraft accident. And when Wilson goes looking for any record of Barker's supposedly formal investigation, he again finds nothing.

12:17Wilson doesn't say his suspicions out loud, though the implication seems clear enough. If there ever was a paper trail, it's been scrubbed. But Wilson isn't deterred. He continues chasing down the men from Charlie Company, and all their accounts seem to point back toward the same man, the young lieutenant from 1st Platoon, William Calley. Wilson knows that the ultimate responsibility for what happened in My Lai will be far-reaching. But according to almost every soldier Wilson talks to, Lieutenant Calley was the one rounding up the villagers, ordering his men to kill them, and pulling the trigger himself.

12:52So on June 5th, 1969, Wilson formally identifies Callie as a suspect, and Callie is immediately ordered to fly back from Vietnam to the U.S. for questioning. A week later, helicopter pilot Hugh Thompson picks him out of a lineup, identifying him as one of the officers he confronted in My Lai. And then, on July 16th, Wilson interviews Private Paul Meadlow. In a moment of grim clarity, Meadlow admits to what he did in My Lai, confessing to killing unarmed civilians on Calley's orders, and with that, Wilson has all he needs. He submits his findings to the Army's Inspector General, who refers the case to the Criminal Investigation Division, or CID, making the My Lai investigation now a full-blown criminal inquiry.

13:37In August, the CID interviews former Army photographer Ronald Haverly. He and the reporter Jay Roberts were in My Lai to document the mission. Afterward, they both fell in line with the official story. and kept the truth to themselves. But when the CID shows up, Haberle makes good on the promise he made a year earlier that if anyone came asking for proof of what really happened, he'd provide it. He hands over his trove of photographs, showing the bodies of Vietnamese civilians piled in ditches, and for the first time, the army has hard evidence. So a month later, 26-year-old William Calley is officially charged with six counts of premeditated murder.

14:15Although the army suspects the number of his victims may be as high as 109. Publicly, they just release a vague statement that says Callie is being detained because of an ongoing investigation. That's enough to deflect the attention of most reporters, but not Seymour Hersh. He's a 32-year-old investigative journalist in Washington, once a rising star at the Associated Press, but having left his job there now works for himself as a freelance reporter. And in October 1969, he's working in a cramped office on the eighth floor of the National Press building. The walls are yellowed from years of cigarette smoke, and Hirsch sits surrounded by notebooks.

14:53His head is down, working hard on a book about the Pentagon.

15:00But then the phone rings. Yep, this is Seymour Hirsch. Mr. Hirsch, I've got something for you. The caller is a young lawyer, new to Washington. A friend of a friend has given him Hirsch's number. He doesn't want his name involved, but he's got a tip. The Army's about to court-martial a soldier down in Fort Benning in Georgia. They're keeping it quiet. Why's that? What for? 75 South Vietnamese shot dead. It could be more. Viet Cong? No, civilians. Women and kids, even. Hirsch opens a new notebook and grabs a pen. Well, who's the soldier? I don't know. They're keeping that under wraps. But he's at Fort Benning?

15:37Yeah, down in Georgia. Okay, what else? What can you give me? Any documents? Dates? Anything solid? No, that's all I've got. It's all just a bunch of whispers right now, but they seem pretty credible. Well, can I talk to anyone else who might know more? I can't get anyone else involved. And keep my name out of it too, okay? They're keeping this all quiet for a reason. There's a lot of people who don't want this getting out. Seymour Hersh sits frozen in his chair for a moment, the phone still gripped in his hand. His mind is already racing. He's covered the Pentagon a good deal in the past. He knows how stories can be buried if the authorities want them to be.

16:16But a court-martial for mass murder seems like a whole different ballgame. Hirsch finally drops a receiver back into its cradle, then rises from his chair, yanks on a battered overcoat, and grabs his notebook off the desk. He should forget about this phone call and focus on his book. He doesn't have a budget for this story or an editor interested in buying it. But he has something more important to him than any of that. He has a lead and his gut is telling him to follow him.

16:45I'm Alice Levine. And I'm Matt Ford. And we're the hosts of British Scandal. Yes, indeed. In this series, a Derbyshire couple are bored of their curtain-twitching, lawn-mowing suburban life. So they sell their house, build a yacht and sail off around the world. Which sort of sounds idyllic until a sperm whale sinks their boat and they begin to starve. Oh yes, and they didn't bring a radio, because real sailors don't use radios. Right? This is the story of Marilyn and Maurice Bailey. And the 117 days they spent lost at sea. Follow British Scandal wherever you get your podcasts, or listen early and ad-free on Audible.

17:26I'm Alice Levine. And I'm Matt Ford, and we're the hosts of British Scandal. Yes, indeed. In this series, a Derbyshire couple are bored of their curtain-twitching, lawn-mowing suburban life. So they sell their house, build a yacht and sail off around the world. Which sort of sounds idyllic until a sperm whale sinks their boat and they begin to starve. Oh yes, and they didn't bring a radio because real sailors don't use radios. Right? This is the story of Marilyn and Maurice Bailey. And the 117 days they spent lost at sea. Follow British Scandal wherever you get your podcasts, or listen early and ad-free on Audible.

18:16After getting a tip about a potential war crime in Vietnam, investigative reporter Seymour Hirsch starts digging. He goes to the usual places first, checking the military's reporting system, the public records, anything filed and forgotten that might point to trouble. But there's no sign of a massacre or any mention of misconduct at all. So he digs deeper, scouring through court records and news reports, but still he comes up empty. Then Hirsch gets lucky. He's in the Pentagon, chasing down military records, when he bumps into an army general. They know each other from Hirsch's days at the Associated Press, before the general injured his knee and got pulled from the field.

18:55They've always been on friendly terms, and now they trade jabs and rib each other in the hallway. Hirsch jokes that the general shot himself in the knee just to get promoted, and the general fires back that he heard Hirsch didn't leave the AP, but got fired. The two men laugh, but Hirsch is already steering the conversation where he needs it to go. And when the laughter dies down, he mentions that he's heard some nasty rumors about a massacre in Vietnam. The mood shifts suddenly, and the general shakes his head. He places his hand about knee height, and then tells Hirsch, that guy Callie, he didn't shoot anyone higher than this.

19:30He just shot little kids. He deserves everything he gets. Hirsch freezes. This is not just confirmation that some sort of massacre did take place. He's now also got a name. After he rushes home, Hirsch calls in all his favors, trying to find out who exactly this Callie might be. When Hirsch follows up with a contact in a congressional office, they warn him to stay away from the story. They say Callie is just a kid who lost it on the battlefield, and it's not worth the trouble. But Hirsch doesn't listen. Instead, he pokes around some more, and eventually he finds out the name of Callie's lawyer.

20:05George Latimer isn't just any defense attorney. He's a World War II veteran and a highly respected former judge on the U.S. Court of Military Appeals, the highest court in the military justice system. Now in his late 60s, he's a partner in a law firm in Salt Lake City. So Hirsch calls Latimer up, but doesn't confront him with what he knows about the massacre. He thinks he needs to win Latimer's trust, so he makes his pitch carefully. He tells Latimer that he's heard Callie's being railroaded, that the army is using him as a scapegoat. This strategy works. Latimer bites and says, yes, he's defending Callie, and yes, it is a miscarriage of justice.

20:43So Hirsch tells Latimer that he'll be out west soon and asks if he can stop by the office to discuss the case in person. Latimer agrees, and in late October 1969, Hirsch makes his way to Utah.

20:59It's a Wednesday morning around 10 a.m. when Seymour Hirsch strolls into the law office of George Latimer in Salt Lake City. Latimer sits behind a polished oak desk, and Hirsch approaches, holding out his hand. Mr. Latimer, pleasure to meet you, sir. Hirsch, is it? Yeah, sit, please. It's a beautiful office you've got here. Makes my old AP desk look like a broom closet. Well, thank you. And I appreciate you seeing me. I wanted to talk about your client, Lieutenant Cowley. I hear they're keeping him at Fort Benning. Latimer peers over his thick-rimmed glasses. Well, you know I can't discuss specifics, Mr.

21:32Hirsch. No, no, of course not. But let me ask you this. I've heard the Army offered him a plea bargain that included jail time. Is there any truth to that? The government makes offers. That doesn't mean we accept them. So you said no? I told them never. That boy was just doing what he was told. They're trying to make an example out of him. But it's the senior officers who should be on trial here, not Callie. Hurst shifts in his seat, bracing to ask his next question. Well, I've been hearing some numbers. I've been told Callie might be responsible for the death of over 150 civilians. Latimer flushes with anger.

22:06Want 50? Now that's a lie. Latimer pushes back from his desk and steps over to a filing cabinet. He rifles through a drawer before pulling out a single piece of paper. If you want to know what he's being accused of, here, this is what they say he did. Latimer slaps a paper on his desk. It's a charge sheet. Hirsch leans forward to read it. A premeditated murder of 109 Oriental human beings? That's very specific. It's also unproven. Latimer pulls the charge sheet back toward him, but not completely out of sight. Hirsch tilts his head and starts discreetly copying it onto his notepad, reading upside down while pretending to listen as Latimer goes on.

22:46You have to understand, he's a lieutenant, Mr. Hirsch, just 24 years old. Boy, really, following orders in a war that makes no sense. What happened in that village was a tragedy. There's no doubt of that. No one would deny it. But we can't let the full weight of it fall on one young officer. Not when everyone up the ladder knew what was happening. Hirsch looks up. So you think senior officers knew about this? knew about it, they practically encouraged it. Seymour Hersh doesn't ask too many follow-up questions. He doesn't want to run the risk of George Latimer telling him their conversation is off the record.