Americanswers... On 5 Live! Could Venezuela's Nicolas Maduro be found not guilty in a US court?

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1:16He's in prison clothing. China demanding that the US free him. It is all a hugely, hugely interesting subject, to put it mildly. We've got a load of questions about it on Five Live. Before we get to our Five Live session, though, and the questions that we answered, let's get to a central one that an awful lot of people are asking. It's asked for us this time round by Mary in Kentucky. Given the recent developments of Venezuela, I wanted to ask what the team think Trump means when he says the U.S. will run Venezuela. Does he mean that in more of an overseer position while dangling the threat of military involvement?

1:58Or might it be a more hands-on approach, such as actually using the military to force out Maduro's remaining government and putting in someone of the U.S.'s choosing? Is it realistic to expect Maduro's government to just roll over and accept the necessary changes? Or is a stronger hand by the U.S. involved to keep things from spiraling into further chaos? That's a really good question, Mary. And both Donald Trump and Marco Rubio have addressed it. This is what Secretary of State Marco Rubio said yesterday when he spoke to NBC's Meet the Press on Sunday morning. President Trump said we're going to run the country.

2:36So is it you? Is it Secretary Hegseth? Who are those people who will be running the country specifically? Well, it's not running. It's running policy. The policy with regard to this. We want Venezuela to move in a certain direction. Because not only do we think it's good for the people of Venezuela, it's in our national interest. It either touches on something that's a threat to our national security or touches on something that's either beneficial or harmful. And are you involved in that transition, Secretary? So obviously I'm very involved in this. I mean, I think everyone knows I'm pretty involved on politics in this hemisphere.

3:07Obviously, a secretary of state and national security adviser are very involved in all these elements. The Department of War plays a very important role here, along with the Department of Justice, for example, because they've got they're the ones that have to go to court. So this is a team effort by the entire national security apparatus of our country. But it is running this policy. That's the long answer. Here's the short one from Donald Trump. Don't ask me who's in charge, because I'll give you an answer and it'll be very controversial. What does that mean? At least we're in charge. Have you spoken with her?

3:35We're in charge. Have you spoken with her? No, no, I haven't, but other people have. Do you want to? Yeah, at the right time I will. So that was on Air Force One, and the reporter was asking whether Donald Trump had spoken to Venezuelan Vice President Delcey Rodriguez, who is now the acting president of Venezuela. And a pretty marked difference between careful comments there by Marco Rubio. So one of the interesting things, I think, Anthony, just listening to Marco Rubio is, you know, he says actually, doesn't he, in terms that you'll know that I have an interest in this hemisphere. And it is interesting the extent to which all of this actually, number one, comes down to him because he's been someone behind the scenes who's been suggesting that this was possible and should be done.

4:22but number two that when it does come down to him that he's kind of he's left having to work out what to do and it's just not clear to me the extent to which he's taken on the latter of those things and actually now is to an extent saying that he's not in charge that what does in charge mean i mean it's it's pretty unclear isn't it yeah it's really easy for donald some to say yeah we're in charge to sound kind of tough and bold and controversial, as he himself said when he says that. But Rubio has to deal with the nuts and bolts of this. And I think that's why you're seeing him being a little more careful in his language.

5:00And you are also right. This is something that Rubio has pushed for, that he's wanted for quite some time. Remember, he was a former Florida senator, where there are a lot of Venezuelan expats living. And he has been very connected to not just the Cuban community in Florida, he has a Cuban heritage, but also the Venezuelan community. So this is his baby, and he is going to be very involved in all the details of it. And I think he realizes that just running everything from Washington or running everything with Americans in charge is impractical in the extreme, and it's much easier for the United States to find people in Venezuela, perhaps including Rodriguez, the vice president, who was first resistant, but now seems a little more open to working with the United States and using them to help have a more ordered, managed transition to help them open the country up to the kind of American investment that both Trump and Rubio have talked about.

6:04And of course, one of the things we always talk about American administrations or any administration in the western world actually as as being as a thing an entity all swimming in the same direction but of course they're not really like that as we know from all sorts of house of cards uh films and and just that sort of general knowledge really of how these things work and particularly memoirs when they're written long after the event about who was playing off who to try to gain traction within an administration and you know perfectly well don't you that those in the administration who are a little bit leery about what they've done, and there will be plenty, will also be saying, OK, Marco, you go for it.

6:45And if it begins to go wrong, he's going to get the blame. On the other hand, if it goes right, of course, given that there is this sort of competition between him and J.D. Vance, I suppose, to be the anointed one to take over in 28, to be the candidate in 28. I mean, it's high stakes, isn't it, actually, for Marco Rubio and for his future? Absolutely. This is his reputation on the line. And this is his moment kind of in the spotlight for a long time. It seemed like he had been kind of sidelined in the big ticket negotiations, such as the Middle East peace negotiations, where Steve Witkoff, Donald Trump's special envoy, was one doing the brunt of the negotiating with Israel, with the Arab powers, and also with Ukraine.

7:27Witkoff was the front man, the point person with these new Ukraine negotiations. Rubio kind of took a backseat. But here he is. Now, this is the Western Hemisphere. This is what he carries about. This is his chance to show what he can do. And yes, he does have 2028 presidential ambitions. He ran for president in 2016. You don't run for president one time, finished, I think third was probably about where he finished, and then just kind of saying, yeah, no, it's not for me. Once you have presidential ambitions, they're there for good. So very clearly, I think he may see this as a launching point for a 2028 campaign.

8:02And you mentioned J.D. Vance, who, you know, this isn't his baby, but he is very closely tied to the fate of this administration. So he's come out on acts with posts defending this military operation, saying that the drug problem in Venezuela was big and needed to be addressed, that the cocaine coming out of Venezuela was a threat to the United States, and also defending taking the oil resources of Venezuela to compensate the oil companies that had these oil resources confiscated from them 20 years ago, and basically saying that the United States has a responsibility in its hemisphere to address threats.

8:46And that's what great powers do, he says, and the United States is a great power again, and everyone one should take note. That's how he concluded his post. So, you know, there's a lot of different kind of cross currents and undercurrents going on here. So keep your eyes on Vance, keep your eyes on Rubio and see how they try to take advantage of this and how they might be ultimately threatened if things go sideways, which is a very real possibility. Yeah. And on that sideways thing, just with we played a clip, didn't we, me in Venezuela sounding very young and I thought oddly posh some weeks ago and my memory of it, I loved it actually and I thought Caracas was an amazing city but my goodness it's lawless.

9:28I mean they're not making it up when they say, when the US administration says that the place is difficult to live in etc etc. It really is and the risk that that lawlessness becomes more widespread and heavily armed and never mind the politics of it and people kind of marching on the palace or whatever, but actually just that the law and order breaks down to a greater extent on the streets of Venezuela, the extent to which they then own that, it seems to me is a really big deal. And Ruby is going to be sweating a bit, I would have thought over the coming days. Okay, well, now let's get to more of your questions with Mariana and Matt Chorley on Five Live.

10:10Welcome to AmeriCancers.

10:15americast americast from bbc news when donald trump calls they say yes sir right away sir happy to lick your boot sir we are the sickest country in the world oh dear are you worried that billionaires are going to go hungry of course the president supports peaceful protests what a stupid question are you still talking about jeffrey epstein

10:41Well, let's move on, because we've got so many questions about this. We've got Ollie on the line. Hello, Ollie. Hello. Where in the world are you, Ollie? Oh, I'm in South London, not far away. Oh, you could have popped in. You'd probably more like to pop in than Mariana. Ollie, what is your question? Right. Well, while nobody can feel to be impressed by the efficiency of the extraction of Maduro under the pretext of drug running and arms trafficking, has the evidence been made public? Is the verdict a foregone conclusion? And is there the remotest chance that he could actually fight it and win?

11:19Well, I don't think it's a foregone conclusion. I think he's definitely going to fight it. And there is a chance he could he could win. We have we haven't seen the evidence against him per se. We've seen the indictment unsealed, and the indictment charges him with cocaine trafficking, drug trafficking, arms violations, machine gun violations. But those are the charges he's going to stand trial on. Now, I'm sure there will be some procedural objections that Maduro and his lawyers raise, such as the way he was removed from Venezuela and into the U.S., although there is precedent for the United States going into a foreign country and arresting someone.

12:00That happened to Manuel Noriega, if you'll recall, in the late 1980s in Panama. So he probably isn't going to be able to object to this trial on those charges. But he might claim immunity as a leader of a foreign nation, kind of in the same way that Donald Trump claimed immunity from prosecution because he was taking official acts as the president of the United States. And then we have to see what kind of details there are, what kind of evidence is presented that he was directly involved in these drug trafficking allegations. And at least so far, we haven't seen a lot of that. The lawyers are going to have to make the case and it will be a judge and a jury that ultimately decides his fate.

12:42It's richly ironic that it's the same courthouse, isn't it, Anthony, that the former Honduran leader who was sentenced to a long sentence in the States, having been found guilty of, and unquestionably I think he was guilty of, massive drug running, and was then pardoned by Donald Trump relatively recently. I mean, like literally days ago. I imagine the defense team might bring that up as well to say this is all Trumped, no pun intended, charges. But I think Ollie's point is a really serious one. The Trump administration want to suggest to the world that this is a judicial process. And so there is going to have to be some judicial process behind it.

13:25And the American courts, as we've seen, don't want to be treated as kind of as just Trump rubber stamp things. and they will try to look at evidence. Well, it's a great question. Thank you for that, Ollie. Good to talk to you. Thank you very much. Let's move on because we've had so many questions. This is a voice note from Ellie in Kent. On AmeriCast's emergency episode about Maduro's capture, Justin said that the MAGA base would be shocked at the idea of boots on the ground in Venezuela. Based on their devotion to Trump thus far and his no more wars campaigning, will this really prove to be the case or are they committed to Trump no matter what?

14:01Good question. Go on then, Mariana. What are your secret friends telling you? How did I know that you were going to say that? Yeah, my undercover voters, my fictional characters with their social media profiles, let me have a bit of a browse, particularly looking at the pro-Trump account, which is in lots of MAGA circles, what's being shared. I would say, I mean, there's been, as I said, a lot of social media content and that's generally been being shared pretty triumphantly by everyone to suggest, you know, this is a show of American strength and this is good. and we love Donald Trump. And a lot of the edits that you're seeing on social media are these very kind of patriotic, you know, America first, Donald Trump as the kind of hero, all that sorts of stuff and kind of military imagery.

14:44And that tends to perform quite well in these circles, particularly on X, but also on places like Instagram. I think it's almost like the MAGA, and we've spoken about this, sometimes the MAGA base, particularly on social media and particularly some of the influencers actually can be pretty harsh and vocal critics of Donald Trump. They have been recently. But I think right now we're in this like slightly grey area where people aren't quite sure what's going to happen next. And so they're still in the let's celebrate what's happened because we think it's a good thing for the United States bit. That could very much change depending on what actually does happen and if there are or aren't boots on the ground and everything else.

15:18It's also this weird thing, isn't it, Justin, of things that seem to go against what was originally Donald Trump's appeal. And suddenly it doesn't matter. Because the people who like him and support him like him and support him. And so when he does things, they seem to support them regardless of the fact it might be the opposite of what he originally said he was going to do. Yeah. So right at the beginning of Trump, the Trump phenomenon, there was a lot of sort of pointy headed political science research into whether people's feelings about an issue would change when they knew that Donald Trump supported it or when they didn't.

15:51and actually they did change a lot. If they're Trump supporters that are broadly in his orbit, then they were very much affected by his personal endorsement of something. But, and this is something Anthony brought up in our emergency podcast, you do see... Did you do an emergency podcast? We did an emergency podcast. No one's even mentioned it, you know. Anthony and I did it and Marianna listened to it. That was it. It was a perfect thing. Do you mean, did you just have a phone call? That's right. Yeah, that's what we used to call a phone call between friends. Anyway, during our phone call between friends that other people were able to listen to should they have wanted to, Anthony brought up the subject of Marjorie Taylor Greene.

16:28Marjorie Taylor Greene, who people may know, is this congresswoman who used to be widely regarded as Dottie, to put it mildly, and used to talk about space lasers and all sorts of things, and then became a congresswoman, a massive Trump supporter. then hugely in the last year or so fell out with Trump, largely over Epstein but also over other things as well, and is now a very prominent former congresswoman because she's resigned in a half. I think she's probably going to run for the candidacy, the Republican candidacy in 2028, and she seems to be building around her a base of people who are very much, you know, to answer that question, very much, and this is the reason I said it, that MAGA is split, because there are people, significant people, and people within who you would have said a year or two ago were firmly Trump people, who are now really genuinely worried.

17:22And she, as Anthony was reminding you, she's immediately brought out a statement that was very much the same statement that prominent Democrats brought out, saying this is not what we elect this guy to do. Well, we'll see how that plays out with the MAGA base. Great question from Ellie. Thank you for that. Right, we've got another caller. Joy's on the line. Hello, Joy. Hello. Where are you in the world, Joy? I'm in Nutsford, which is in Cheshire. Very nice. What is your question for the AmeriCasters? Well, it's after the US attack on Venezuela. Is Trump more emboldened to try and take over Greenland, a NATO member?

17:55And if so, how can other NATO allies block such an assault? And I also wondered whether the oil companies are really ready and interested in investing millions of their dollars in Venezuela, or are they as surprised as everyone else has been, and are they now on the back foot wondering how they respond, given how Trump can be somewhat erratic with his response if he doesn't get what he wants from people? Two great questions there, Joy. Well, on the first question, we can hear from Donald Trump himself, once again, answering the question. On the issue of Greenland, speaking to reporters on Air Force One overnight.

18:29Right now, Greenland is covered with Russian and Chinese ships all over the place. We need Greenland from the standpoint of national security. and Denmark is not going to be able to do it, I can tell you. You know what Denmark did recently to boost up security on Greenland? They added one more dog sled. It's true. They thought that was a great move. So Greenland's Prime Minister, Jens Frederik Nilsson, responded by saying, that's enough now. And Denmark's Prime Minister, Mehta Frederiksen, said the US has no right to annex any of the three nations in the Danish kingdom. We've been around this block before, Anthony.

19:11Is this more serious to Greenland than it was before? I mean, I guess given what the United States has done in Venezuela now and the talk from people like Marco Rubio, the Secretary of State, and Donald Trump himself about the United States dominating the Western Hemisphere, that this is our region and our sphere of influence, I think, yes, you have to start thinking they are serious about it. At least it fits into their kind of geopolitical outlook. And actually, all of this started with Katie Miller, who is a conservative social media activist, wife of Stephen Miller, who is the deputy chief of staff in the White House, a senior Trump advisor.

19:48She posted on X a picture of Greenland draped in the stars and stripes, so red, white, and blue all over Greenland, with just the message saying, soon. And that set off this latest round of kind of Greenland talk. But I think it's a serious issue at this point. We can't just laugh about it anymore. Now, whether the United States would actually take military action against a NATO member, that seems still to be beyond imagination. But the increasing pressure is going to put strains on NATO and going to put strains on U.S. and European relations. Justin, is there a slight feeling that originally people laughed when he was talking about Greenland, but actually having seen what's happened in Venezuela, they might not be laughing now?

20:32Yeah, might not be laughing now and might feel two things really. Number one, that the United States is actually rather more powerful than it seemed. And you think back to Joe Biden and Afghanistan and all the kind of blunders that there were and missteps and et cetera, et cetera. and actually now Donald Trump does seem willing to use power and it appears that he does have the power to use as well. You think also to what they did in Iran in very different circumstances but from their lights a very successful operation. So there's that side to it but there's also the Trump side to it which I think is really interesting that he is very disinhibited as we've discussed before and he seems to be disinhibited on the world stage as well.

21:21And I'm not so sure, actually, that the NATO thing really matters. I don't think they could march in. Well, they wouldn't need to march in. What they'll be trying to work out behind the scenes is what they would need to do to effectively take control in Greenland. And I think, yeah, you should take it seriously. I think we should take it seriously. There's a real possibility. And what it does to Europe, too, because you can see the kind of the way in which various European leaders have had various reactions to what's going on in Venezuela. and how united would they be? You know, would Keir Starmer stand up for Greenland?

21:55Would he send troops? I don't know. It's not totally clear what the government line is on anything which has unfolded over the last few days. You might hear a bit later on from Yvette Cooper. Anthony, just on Joy's point about are US oil companies ready to go into Venezuela or have they been caught on the hop? Well, Donald Trump says they're ready. He says they're champion at the bit to get in there and invest. when you hear oil executives and you hear reports from oil companies, they seem a little more reluctant. One, because the infrastructure in Venezuela is so degraded, it will take a lot to rebuild it.

22:30Two, because the oil in Venezuela isn't as easy to refine as oil in the United States or elsewhere. And then three, the price of oil isn't very high now. So you make all these investments and you're really not getting as much of a return on it because per barrel, you're just not getting that much money from putting it into what is already a saturated oil market. So I think it may not turn out quite the way the Trump administration hopes, which is this vast resources they can tap into that they can use to not only help the Venezuelan people, which is what Donald Trump said, but also to reimburse the United States for all of the promised investment that it's going to be doing in Venezuela.

23:11Well, we've had a question on the Discord, You'll be pleased here, Mariana, from Tomo, who says, less important in the grand scheme of things than some of the excellent questions. But is it not very, very weird that Trump's doing his press conference in Mar-a-Lago rather than the White House? Does this mean he watched the question from a makeshift situation room in Florida rather than D.C.? Anthony? He did. He was in Mar-a-Lago. And you've actually seen pictures of the makeshift room. It looks like big black curtains kind of pulled around some part of Mar-a-Lago. and they're sitting there watching it on video screens.

23:46And also, I think, interestingly enough, there's photos of the White House release of a big video screen behind Donald Trump and Pete Hegseth, the defence secretary, showing an X feed, the social media site X. So I guess they were also monitoring what people were saying on social media. I don't know, Anthony, there's security issues about doing it that way around. Have other presidents done important stuff from outside the White House? Certainly nothing this major. But then again, if you remember during the first Trump presidency, I think he ordered strikes on Syria, missile strikes on Syria when he was down in Mar-a-Lago.

24:22In fact, he was down in Mar-a-Lago, I think, entertaining guests. Yeah, it was Xi Jinping, wasn't it? Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So this is not a new concern, but it is a very real concern. Mar-a-Lago is a private club where people can buy memberships and hang around. Trump's there all the time, you know, and there's actually been evidence. You can see Vanilla Ice. It's all happening. Yes. So don't we know that when Trump gave the order, he'd come back from shopping for marble, as you do, for the new ballroom at the White House, and he was at Mar-a-Lago. where on New Year's Eve when at Mar-a-Lago he had watched Vanilla Ice perform Ice Ice Baby surrounded by backing dancers dressed as teenage mutant ninja turtles.

25:04As you do. Of course you do.