Americanswers… On 5 Live! Do the new Epstein files "absolve" Trump?

0:00This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. When you hear the phrase made in China, what do you think? I'm Tristan Redman.

0:10Anthony Zurcher:And I'm Asma Khalid and together we host the Global Story podcast from the BBC.

0:15Marianna Spring:And today on our show we look at the origins and evolution of made in China because it actually wasn't inevitable. What we're talking about is the world's largest communist nation is at the beating heart of the capitalist system.

0:30Anthony Zurcher:For more, listen to The Global Story on bbc.com or wherever you get your podcasts.

0:38All right, then, where are we now with the Epstein files? We've had the latest tranche released on Friday, a huge amount of documentation. Donald Trump says he is absolved by it. The Department of Justice say it is the end of their review process. Survivors, though, of Epstein's abuse and many Democrats are not satisfied. They say millions of these documents may still be withheld. and that questions, possibly questions about the president himself, have not been properly answered. So Sarah, Anthony, Mariana and I joined Matt Chorley to answer your questions. I should say we also talked about other things as well, including Donald Trump threatening legal action after last night's Grammys with celebrities speaking out against him and against immigration enforcement.

1:21Also, quilters on social media. What influence do they have? All will be explained. Welcome to America Answers on Five Live.

1:59Let's dive in to the first question. Nadia has emailed, I'd like to know what the next stage is in the Epstein saga after the horrific new emails, etc. released on the 30th of January. Will anyone be prosecuted? Anthony, first of all, I suppose in terms of the actual procedural next step, what sort of formal investigations are ongoing in the United States now that all these files are in the public?

2:25Anthony Zurcher:Well, the administration has directed the Justice Department to investigate some of the Democratic politicians who were tied to the Epstein files. That includes Bill Clinton and some Democratic donors. Now, we haven't heard anything about these investigations. It was just something that was announced by Pam Bondi, the attorney general. I mean, beyond that, we don't really know what else could come from this. Now, when they released this latest batch of more than three million documents, the Justice Department said this was pretty much the last big batch and there wasn't going to be much else disclosed.

3:05Anthony Zurcher:So as far as ongoing investigations, we haven't we haven't seen a whole lot aside from this one that that they seem to be looking into, which clearly does have a political tinge to it. So then what happens further? The big question is, well, you know, what happens in terms of prosecutions? Can there be? Would there be? Would you expect them to? Or is this all actually being played out in the sort of the court of public opinion? Yeah, I think it's much more that. As far as prosecutions go, people keep calling for prosecutions. There are members of Congress, the ones who are behind the law that forced this mass disclosure of Epstein documents, that want to see more FBI files, like a drafted charging document that might have been put forward originally for Epstein before he had that plea deal in the early 2000s, to see what sort of details there are in that, whether there are any other co-conspirators or people who've worked with Epstein, either in the financial industry or personal contacts who might have aided him in this underage sex trafficking ring.

4:11Anthony Zurcher:But there hasn't been any smoking gun revelations in the documents that have come out so far that point towards a prosecution for anyone in Epstein's circle. And if there are still documents yet to be revealed and the Justice Department says there aren't nothing left out there that isn't being protected because of victims' information and the like, then we haven't seen it. And at this point now, it is a waiting game to see if anything else breaks out. But as of right now, there is no legal process for further prosecutions that we know of. And Sarah, clearly that all the focus of the UK has been on, well, Prince Andrew, as he then was, Andrew Mountbatten-Windsor and now Peter Mandelson.

4:55What is the focus or even the American attention on these files? Those two are featuring very, very prominently in the coverage because there's probably more damaging material about them than any other particularly well-known people. There are some people who claim that they had had no contacts with Epstein or had broken them off. It's clear we're continuing to either socialize with him or deal with him long after his first conviction for sex abuse, including Elon Musk and the current Commerce Secretary, Howard Lutnick, who've got communications about wanting to visit him on his island. But nothing is quite as damaging as it is about Andrew Mountbatten-Windsor or Peter Mandelson.

5:35And as a result, I think one of the really big unanswered questions about this is if there is not the kind of smoking gun that's going to lead to prosecutions or really embarrass anybody in Donald Trump's circle or indeed the president himself. Why was he so reluctant to release these files? There is nothing that has so far come out of three and a half million documents that I think goes any way to explain why he reneged on his initial promise to release them and caused such a political furore for himself. He really caused himself huge political problems and it's almost impossible to work out why.

6:11If you step back for a moment for the details of what was released, it is interesting, Justin. The whole of his second presidency has been dominated by these files. The thing I don't understand, I don't know what Sarah and Anthony make of this, I don't understand why the victims or their lawyers aren't now saying we need to prosecute X person, Y person, or been in secret to the police saying, you know, there is evidence. Here's the email evidence that they were in touch. My client says she was raped by this person on this occasion. And I don't know the answer to that. I just don't see, I think that's one of the great mysteries of this, because, yeah, there's a lot of political embarrassment and all the rest of it and Lord Maddelson and this and that.

6:56But, I mean, there was real abuse going on. There's no question about that and no prosecutions. And I think that's for a lot of Americans, including a lot of Americans who feel very deeply about this. Why? What's going on? There's nothing in the files that would provide any evidence for a prosecution other than, Justin, as you say, that sometimes emails people saying, oh, I want to visit you on your island around about this weekend, which might go somewhere to placing somebody on the island on a particular date that maybe somebody says that they were raped or abused. But beyond that, there's absolutely nothing there that would really give grounds for a prosecution.

7:32I haven't seen anything like that.

7:34Anthony Zurcher:No. And there are allegations in there. There are reports made to the FBI, which are doodly noted and categorized. But they are just allegations and some of them are outrageous. But but they're in there and the FBI had them, whether they followed up to investigate or not. They did involve big names. Donald Trump's names were in some of these lists of allegations, unverified allegations to the FBI. Other famous personalities were in there as well. But but again, you know, if someone calls in and tells the FBI and they write it down, that is not the basis for prosecution. that might be the basis for further inquiry but there's no indication that that those kind of inquiries took place there's also been some emails showing uh but we draw elon musk into this so he discussed traveling to epstein's island on more than one occasion including a proposed trip in 2012 in which he asked epstein what day or night will be the wildest party on your island what's elon

8:32Marianna Spring:musk been saying marianne well as you can imagine there's been quite a lot of focus actually on this this correspondence between Musk and Epstein, because Elon Musk has been one of the most vocal people about releasing the files, and he's been very critical of Donald Trump, and it was part of their kind of original falling out and everything else. And so when these came out and they suggest, which goes beyond what he'd said publicly before, that he, you know, had tried to go to the island, to go to a party and so on and so forth, everyone said, hold on a second. It feels like you didn't go, but you wanted to go.

9:01Marianna Spring:He turned around and said, no, no, no, this has all been misinterpreted and misunderstood. I never went to a party. I wasn't on the plane. You know, I'm not implicated in this like other people are. And it does create this kind of, I don't know, it further fuels this wider narrative on social media in general, which is that lots and lots of powerful people are connected to this in some way, although all of them deny being implicated or any wrongdoing. But people are pouring over. I mean, that's the thing when documents like this are released. They can now pour over every single little detail. And the kind of irony for Elon Musk is that most of that pouring over the detail is happening on his social media site X.

9:35Marianna Spring:So you've got him replying to stuff with tweets and then you've got people quote tweeting it saying, hold up a sec. You said this, you said that. And they can see the emails for themselves. We'll see how this goes, because, you know, the reason this is taking so drawn out things, because there are so many documents and more and more being found all the time. Let's turn our attention to showbiz now, or at least showbiz in its opposition to ICE, Immigration and Customs Enforcement Officers. So at the Grammys last night, lots of musicians voiced opposition to Trump, ICE and the current climate around immigration in America.

10:05including Scissor, Billie Eilish and Justin's favourite artist, Bad Bunny. Before I say thanks to God, I'm going to say eyes out.

10:23We're not savage, we're not animals, we're not aliens, we are humans and we are Americans. Are you a big fan of Bad Bunny, Justin? A massive fan. He is. This is a running joke. What's your favourite song again? Oh, I can't remember. I have to get in touch with my daughter, and she has to text me during the recording of the podcast, which she did last time. And I was able then to... He celebrates the whole catalogue. It's so hard to choose. Is it the best of Bad Bunny? Is that your favourite? I mean, I like it all. Are you thinking of Jive Bunny? I like it all. No, no, I think the man's a genius.

10:58He's very funny on Saturday Night Live. Anyway, Ian has been in touch on the Discord. He says, being an ancient old duffer... I don't think you are, Ian, if you're on the Discord. He says, being an ancient old duffer, I know nothing of Billie Eilish, but boy did the young woman nail it when she said at the Grammys, nobody is illegal on stolen land. What she said before was nobody's illegal on stolen land. It's just really hard to know what to say and what to do right now. And I just, I feel really hopeful in this room, and I feel like we just need to keep fighting and speaking up and protesting.

11:25And our voices really do matter, and the people matter. I suppose the question is, does it make any difference if somebody says something at the Grammys, Justin? Yeah, I think it makes a big difference, actually, and I think it's entirely disastrous for the cause. I can't think of anything since defund the police that is less likely to appeal to most mainstream Americans at the very time that they feel deeply uncomfortable about ICE and what ICE have been doing in Minnesota. To tell them, number one, oh, by the way, this is a hardworking America, maybe on their way home, got to pick the kids up from school, got to make sure they can exist into next week on the pay that they're getting, etc., etc.

12:03Suddenly you get Billie Eilish, of all people, saying, you live on stolen land. OK, right, fine. And then not only do you live on stolen land, but anyone can come because you live on stolen land. So what? Anyone? Anyone in the world? How does that feel to most Americans? I think it's one of these things that you think it's a lovely thing to come out with, with all your glittering pals when you all live in gated communities. But it's one of those phrases that just, and this is why Sarah was saying this the other day, that the Democrats have got to be quite careful here and feel themselves they need to be careful about this anti-ice stuff because yes, it to an extent catches a wave, but if the wave breaks, they might find themselves exposed if that's not mixing too many metaphors.

12:50Marianna Spring:Isn't one of the issues here, though, that when it comes to... It's a sort of double-edged sword, or a no-win or whatever the right phrase is. It's more metaphors. Matt's looking deeply mystified. he's typing something I don't know he's typing a memo to himself can we stop doing this no but you've got this situation where you have you have celebrities who are feel like they have to say something because if they don't speak out about these issues particularly when there's a lot of sort of anger and discontent on social media then they are blasted for it but then when they speak out about them exactly as you point out Justin often that then actually completely turns people off who think hang on a second you don't really speak for me or understand what's going on so it's almost like what I don't I don't know if you with someone who was working in sort of celebrity PR, I don't really know what you would do or wouldn't do when it comes to something like this.

13:37Anthony, I suppose we've seen this down the years on all sorts of campaigns, whether it's Beyonce and Oprah lining up for Hillary Clinton or, you know, there's a certain way of celebrities talking about politics, which as Justin said, might actually prove counterproductive.

13:56Anthony Zurcher:Counterproductive or just not productive. I mean, obviously we I remember in 2016, following Hillary Clinton on the campaign trail. And like you said, they had Beyonce. They had a bunch of star-studded events where there were singers who came and supported Hillary Clinton. And I would go around and talk to the people at these concerts, and half of them were from other countries or not even voters in whatever area they were doing these events in. And it just doesn't really move the needle. Americans vote for reasons that are personal, and they don't typically vote because someone, whether it is Billie Eilish or Kid Rock, tells them this is the way they should vote.

14:36Anthony Zurcher:So I think it may not be off-putting necessarily to Americans because they're kind of, they just tune it out. Oh, it's just politics and they go on with their lives. But it is, they feel compelled to speak out. And Trevor Noah, his comments about Donald Trump actually have gotten him in a bit of hot water. Now Donald Trump is threatening to sue Trevor Noah, who was the host of the Grammys, for suggesting that Donald Trump and Bill Clinton had both been to Epstein's island. And now Trump is in a truth social post saying, you're going to hear from his lawyers. Well, it's all very complicated. Can I put a counter case?

15:13Because I think that what's happening in the last couple of weeks in America is a real cultural moment after Alex Preti was killed. I mean, the killing of Renee Goode attracted a lot of attention. It was after Alex Preti was killed and, you know, it was no longer one isolated incident that this really caught people's imagination and upset a huge amount of Americans who are not engaged day to day in politics. And we all know, you know, we've lived through them before, whether it was Black Lives Matter, different things, where something just catches fire and moves beyond the political into the cultural sphere.

15:44And it was the fact that that was happening, I think, that Donald Trump could tell was going on and why he started talking about wanting to de-escalate the situation in Minneapolis. And it is because it's being mentioned at the Grammys. It was being mentioned at the Golden Globes. You can bet this will come up at the Oscars. You will not be able to have major cultural events, probably even the Super Bowl, where Bad Bunny will be performing, without people talking about this because it's in the ether. And that might not change how people are going to vote in November or again in another two and a half years' time.

16:16But it does mean that this is something everybody's paying attention to and therefore the administration has to take care with it because it has caught a cultural moment, I would say. Well, we're just sort of working through Justin's playlist here, from Bad Bunny to Nicki Minaj, who's actually come out to support Donald Trump. Let's take a listen. I am probably the president's number one fan.

16:47and that's not going to change and the the hate or what people have to say it does not affect me at all it actually motivates me to support him more and it's going to motivate all of us to support him more we're not going to let them get away with bullying him and you know the smear campaigns. It's not going to work.

17:12Marianna Spring:Have you seen the memes of there's this picture of Nicki Minaj and Donald Trump holding hands because they're kind of like about to raise their arms or whatever you know saying hello and it's a very funny picture because you've got Donald Trump's hands and then you've got Nicki Minaj's like incredible nails that are really long and there's a lot of very very good memes like how it feels when I'm typing in a Google Doc with my 23 year old colleague.

17:39Marianna Spring:but but interestingly as well it's again another issue the thing we've spoken about loads which just and you've spoken about quite a lot is to what extent does it benefit anyone democrats donald trump republicans when celebrities kind of come out and endorse them and again you know nikki minaj could backfire a bit i mean it starts to seem a bit less in touch with the the base or Or maybe it doesn't. Maybe it shows the kind of change in political feeling and the kind of MAGA being cool and that sort of thing. Wait till Edward Elgar comes out and endorses. Then I'll be interested. Then my ears will prick up.

18:12Well, from protesting celebrities to protesting quilters, we've had this. I think it's my favourite question we've maybe ever had on America. This is Alison in North Norfolk. This is Alison in North Norfolk. I make patchwork quilts. My social media feed normally consists of pictures of quilts and other textile arts. In the last few weeks, my feed has become dominated by US-based quilters and crafters, expressing their concerns about what's happening in Minneapolis and encouraging people to speak up, and quilters from around the world sharing their support. I know the algorithms will be skewing what I see.

18:47Can Mariana tell me if this type of protest is something she's seeing in the feeds of the undercover voters? and how widespread is this sense I'm getting of women speaking up and protesting about what is going on. Now, this is fascinating. I suppose this is an example of grassroots protests, spilling out from your quilting Instagrammers into protests. Mariana, what do you say?

19:10Marianna Spring:Yeah, and I think it's a really interesting question because it's something that we've seen happen before, actually. So during Donald Trump's first presidency and actually this time around as well, There have been quilters and artists and other people who've kind of made content in protest. I think what's interesting, Alison, is that you are on what we would call, people often talk about being on a particular side of TikTok or Instagram Reels or whatever. So you're obviously already, your algorithm is getting all the kind of quilt stuff. Therefore, you are more likely to be seeing this kind of content, perhaps than the average person who's not as interested in textile arts and quilting and that sort of thing.

19:44Marianna Spring:But what it shows, I think, is that wider discontent that there are people who aren't usually very engaged necessarily. in politics or rather their content isn't who are actually then making that content political we've seen it around um we've seen it more so around issues like the war in gaza where people who are kind of otherwise creators who don't speak about politics have decided they want to speak out and will make art or do this kind of thing um i think that when you're comparing that actually to the celebrity stuff we were just talking about it's probably much more effective at feeling like it's coming from the average person who cares about something and is concerned about it and is speaking up in terms of the prevalence of the content you're kind of right to identify that you're sort of in a niche but i have seen some of this sorts of stuff on emma who is my sort of furthest to the left undercover voter and he gets quite a lot of activist content i think what what's interesting is if for example gabriella my undecided voter was into quilting which is not one of her hobbies but i could i could become one of them um i think she would be seeing this stuff and i so i think that's a way that people who are perhaps feeling maybe disconnected or not from politics but are using social media for other types of content are being exposed to politics and that's often quite a good litmus test of when an issue e.g.

20:54Marianna Spring:for example around ice and immigration is starting to have kind of widespread discontent or people are thinking oh I don't feel comfortable with this. This is a fascinating thing that's going on in Minneapolis apparently it's also craft-based activism where people are knitting red woolen hats to a particular pattern that comes to a point at the top and has a little tassel hanging off. And they are copies of hats that the Norwegians knitted in war during the Nazi occupation in the Second World War, and they were banned by the Nazis. And so people have taken up this. You can buy the knitting pattern and like five bucks or something that you pay for the knitting pattern online goes towards helping migrants in Minneapolis, I think.

21:35So it's a very deliberately protest-based thing. But as a result, yeah, people are, it's a bit like the pussy hats that people were knitting after Donald Trump was first elected. Yeah, but it's these Norwegian red tassel hats are the next big thing in Minneapolis, I read.