Americanswers... On 5 Live! Has Trump just made the US/Europe breakup official?

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0:30And to think, that's just a small taste of what Schwab offers. Because Schwab knows that when it comes to your finances, choice matters. No matter your goals, investing style, life stage or experience, Schwab has everything you need, all in one place, so you can invest your way. Visit schwab.com to learn more. Breaking news, AmeriCasters. As we are recording this episode at 3 o 'clock in the afternoon UK time on Monday, the Golden Globes have just announced their nominees and they include a brand new category, Best Podcast. And that's in recognition of the extraordinary and diverse talents in podcasting.

1:11What do you think of that, Justin? Can I just say, if we'd been nominated, we would have won. Unfortunately, we haven't been nominated. So I guess we won't win, but there is always next year, eh, Sarah? Yes, indeed. We shall make them more aware of our efforts, I think. We're running some Donald Trump-style campaign that we deserve the award. Because it's Monday, Justin, Anthony and I have been answering all of your questions on Five Live with Matt Charlie on his show there. And among other things, we're talking about the reaction to Donald Trump's Peace Prize that he got from FIFA and why he himself has been handing out awards to Sylvester Stallone and Gloria Gaynor.

1:46Anthony was actually there in the Oval Office with Trump and all the celebs. We're also going to be talking a bit about the Defence Secretary or Secretary for War, Pete Hegseth's latest justification for striking alleged drugs boats in open international waters. Plus, it's Donald Trump trying to end the United States alliance with Europe. They've brought out this new security paper that is frankly pretty rude about Europe, or at least European elites. So stay with us. We get to that at the end of the pod. In the meantime, let us begin. Welcome to AmeriCansers on Five Live.

2:19Anthony Zurcher:americast americast from bbc news when donald trump calls they say yes sir right away sir happy to lick your boot sir we are the sickest country in the world oh dear are you worried that billionaires are going to go hungry of course the president supports peaceful protests what a stupid question are you still talking about jeffrey epstein

2:45Right, let's get stuck in immediately with Donald Trump finally getting his Peace Prize. Not from Noble, as he might have hoped, but from FIFA, who created it especially for him. Here he is accepting his award. Thank you very much. This is truly one of the great honours of my life. And beyond awards, John and I were discussing this. We saved millions and millions of lives. The Congo is an example. Well, over 10 million people killed and it was heading for another 10 million very quickly. And it just, you know, the fact that we could do that, India, Pakistan, so many different wars that were able to end, in some cases, a little bit before they started, just right before they started.

3:31And I see him talking about how he managed to end wars before they started. John in Kent has been in touch. Hello AmeriCast. The USA media have been quite rude in the past about leaders in other countries who need to be endlessly praised and appeased. Are ordinary Americans at all uncomfortable with things like FIFA inventing a peace prize for Donald Trump? Sarah, would you like to describe it if people haven't seen the trophy and the medal and then we can get on to how it's gone down in America? It's quite freaky. It seems to be substantially larger than the actual World Cup. And it's got all of these disembodied hands reaching up and holding a globe.

4:08And it's a little bit freaky. But I haven't seen it in real life. I've only seen pictures. Anthony, you've been in the Oval Office this weekend, haven't you, and seen it with your own eyes?

4:15Anthony Zurcher:Yeah, I was in there Saturday night. He got the award on Friday. And by Saturday, it was sitting on the Resolute desk, the big desk that's in the middle of the Oval Office, towering over a replica of the actual World Cup trophy that he also had sitting on his desk. So he's quite proud of it. I guess to ask, you know, Americans paying attention to this? Probably not. You know, his base probably loves the fact that he's getting treated with such respect, in their view, by other countries and leaders of international organizations like FIFA. Meanwhile, his critics will look at it and say, This is just another example of people bending over backwards to stroke Donald Trump's ego, making up making up a peace prize to give him because he didn't get the Nobel Prize this year, which is honestly what he's really pining after.

5:03And we've seen other world leaders, haven't we, all being incredibly in sequious and flattering every time they come and visit him in the Oval Office to make sure they don't get scolded and told off like President Zelensky did. But one thing I would say is I think there is less of a cringe in America about celebrating your own achievements as a nation and as people. So I think the extent to which we look at it and think it would just make everybody's toes curl, that might be a little bit less true here. It's such an interesting point, though, isn't it? I think Sarah's dead right. And sometimes we tend to see everything in America through our own rather more cynical, ancient spectacles.

5:39And actually, they're really not like that. I think Sarah's just spot on. The prizes and trophies and pageants and all that. Yeah, someone's saying I've done this and I've done that and exaggerating a bit. Did he really bring an end to, what did he say, a war between India and Pakistan? I mean, there was some fighting between them. I think on both sides they wouldn't say necessarily it was brought to an end by the Americans. And all the other wars, and one of them's just broken out again, hasn't it, in Cambodia. So, yeah, you can take all of that with a bit of a pinch of salt, but I think Sarah's right.

6:07The idea that you blow your own trumpet, which to modest Brits is so horrendous actually isn't to a lot of Americans. Plus, I'd say this, Matt, they don't give a what's-it about football. I mean, really, number one, they call it soccer. Well, I think this might be the most controversial thing that Donald Trump's ever said because at the same thing, he suggested they need to change the word for American football and he basically said that soccer should be known as football and that they need a different word for when they're talking about the NFL. How do you think about that, Anthony?

6:41Anthony Zurcher:Yeah, good luck with that. Yeah, I mean, Donald Trump, you remember, used to own a football, and by that I mean American football team in the USFL back in the 80s. I mean, he has a long history with the sport, but he also always wanted to own an NFL team and kind of got snubbed on that. So maybe this is his way of sticking it back to the NFL higher up, saying, okay, well, I'm going to say you can't even call it football anymore. Well, given the amount of time they spend carrying the ball in their hands, it doesn't seem entirely right that it's the game that gets called. I think this is the point he was making.

7:14And so on the broader point of why FIFA done this, the fact that America is going to be seeing a huge influx of teams and fans from around the world, and we'd quite like that to pass off without any trouble or without any entanglements with ICE or any other government agencies or Trump getting cross about the tournament, Maybe getting the papier-mâché out and covering a balloon in gold paint and giving it to him, it's got a small price to pay for Gianni Infantino, the head of FIFA, who I've read has met Trump more than any other world leader. If this is what you need to do to get your tournament to pass off without any trouble, it's probably worth doing, isn't it?

7:54It would be, but let's see if that is the case. So their best friends at the moment, Gianni Infantino, even popped up in Egypt when they were signing the Israel-Gaza peace deal. at Donald Trump's side. He's been travelling with them all over the place. It's been absolutely bizarre for the last few months. So it's not a guarantee, I don't think, just because he got a big glittery award that he's necessarily not going to meddle with this World Cup. Well, we'll wait and see. It's well worth having a look at the prize online if you haven't seen it already. Let's move on. We've got Peter on the line.

8:24Hello, Peter. Hello, Dan. Where in the world are you, Peter? I'm in Sheffield, actually. Lovely. What is your question? Well, my question is, does Trump's new national security strategy seal the arrival of a new world order with Trump in alliance with Putin and Europe sidelined, making us extremely vulnerable? And do Europe's leaders need to face up to the uncomfortable truth and stop calling America an ally because effectively America, Trump has taken over America? Justin, should European leaders see America as an ally? I'll give you two parts to that. Number one, if I could deal with a wider question first, I don't think this national security strategy paper is as revolutionary about the rest of the world than it is about Europe.

9:20So if you take the rest of the world, so, you know, he's still effectively trying to keep the Chinese out of Taiwan, and it talks a bit about that. He's still trying to make sure that the Middle East remains open for international trade and obviously trade and oil, etc., etc. No great change there. You could sort of map that all the way back to Nixon, really. It's just in Europe that they have these really caustic things to say in terms about European elites who they think have led Europe into potential longer term oblivion. And on that, I mean, they would say, the view is of Anthony and Sarah, but I would say looking at it that they would say they are issuing a warning to Europe, albeit they would say also a friendly warning, but a sharp warning that Europe is on a path that they regard as unsustainable.

10:13sustainable, so a path towards civilizational decline, a path towards an inability to stand up to anyone, let alone the Russians, because we don't have the proper defence industries, et cetera, et cetera. All the things that they have been saying for some time solidified in quite an undiplomatic set of sentences. But it seems to me that that's the potentially revolutionary bit about this, the rest of the world, not so much. In a couple of paragraphs talking about Europe in this national security strategy, it says that in Europe, economic decline is eclipsed by the real and more stark prospect of civilizational erasure.

10:52It talks about the way in which migration is changing European countries and creating strife as it transforms the continent, criticises censorship of free speech, suppression of political opposition, cratering birth rates and a loss of national identity and self -confidence. all of which it says is basically undermining democracy and political liberty in Europe. So, I mean, it's a very, very stark criticism. And one that a lot of European leaders will not be happy to accept the idea that they are meddling in democracy by trying to stymie smaller right wing parties, that kind of thing, or that free speech is under threat in Europe.

11:30It's a proper clash of civilizations kind of picture. Right.

11:33Anthony Zurcher:Right. Criticism we've heard before from people like Pete Hegseth, the defense secretary, and J.D. Vance, the vice president. But here it is in an official document that each new administration comes out with that sets out kind of their national and global security framework that they're going to adjust all their policies to reflect. And so you have that tied to American foreign policy and American diplomatic relations with Europe, a call for Europe to spend more money on their defense, a kind of a decoupling from European security objectives and a focus. Yes. And as Justin said, a focus on working with China, containing China in a way more by boosting up other Asian countries to to be a check on China.

12:18Anthony Zurcher:But there's a really a big focus also on the Western hemisphere and the idea of this Monroe Doctrine, where this is a doctrine from James Monroe, a president in the early 19th century, that anything in the Americas basically is the United States's backyard. And we have kind of a geopolitical supremacy over that. And you're seeing that reflected in the buildup of 15 ,000 troops in the Caribbean, the bombing of boats in international waters there from they're coming out of Venezuela. It is a restructuring of the world into spheres of influence where the United States takes the Western Hemisphere.

12:57Anthony Zurcher:China maybe has its way in Asia. Russia and Europe kind of have to hash it out in the European continent. And that harkens back to 19th century imperialism. It is a dramatic change from the view that America had of the world after World War II, where it was a community of nations that we all kind of tried to work together to make sure the world as a whole was a peaceful place. Great question. Thanks for that, Peter. And I'm sure the details of it will be picked over more. Let's move on. I want to talk about Venezuela. Andre in Somerset has been asked, could you ask the AmeriCasters, they think General Bradley should go on trial for war crimes.

13:34If he does, who conducts the hearing and would Trump have pardon power over that decision? Same question for Hegseth. Do you want to start with the background? Let's unpack who is General Bradley. Why might he go on trial for war crimes first of all? Sarah? Yes, so as I'm sure listeners know, there had been a whole series of airstrikes on boats in the Caribbean Sea coming from Venezuela that the Trump administration say are smuggling drugs. And they have, well, they haven't declared war because they haven't had a congressional declaration of war, but they say they are at war against these drug cartels and claim the right to bomb them in the sea.

14:11The very first strike in September killed five people on board one boat, but they could see from their satellite imagery that there were two survivors. A second strike then went in and killed them. And there's been a very heated debate about whether that is breaching the rules of war, the laws of war, because you've got survivors there who are helpless. They no longer pose any kind of threat. And to kill them in those circumstances, yeah, is either a war crime or murder. Admiral Bradley is the one who was conducting the airstrikes, but under orders from the defence secretary or secretary of war, Pete Hegseth, who was the one who had said that they should strike these drug boats.

14:49And so some people are saying it's perfectly and entirely justified. Republicans, mostly Democrats, say they've never seen anything so awful in their lives. And there's no pressure to release the video of what happened so that everybody can see exactly how this went down. Anthony, in terms of the pressure on Pete Hegseth, how much trouble is he in, potentially?

15:10Anthony Zurcher:It seems like Republicans are circling the wagons around him. And that wasn't necessarily going to be the case last week when we saw some Republicans after the first reports about the second strike and the fact that it looked like there were two survivors who were not engaged in any kind of hostile activities were kind of clinging to wreckage and waving and trying to trying to wave for help. And then they were targeted and killed. There were some Republicans who were critical of that. And they said, you know, we needed robust hearings and we need to get to the bottom of this. And we saw General Admiral Bradley come in at that point, as well as the joint chiefs of staff, General Cain, come in and talk to members of Congress.

15:49Anthony Zurcher:And after that, it seemed like things went back to kind of their partisan corners where Republicans were defending Hegseth, were defending the military actions. Democrats were calling for more disclosures and for this footage of the second strike to be made public. So it seems like he right now at least has the president's backing, his party's backing, and he's weathered the storm. The question is, what happens if this video does get released? And Hegseth says that they're reviewing it. Donald Trump, for his part, said, oh, yeah, we can release it. Fine. But if we see people who are clearly in distress waving and then were blown up while they're clinging to wreckage, you know, that may renew calls for Hegseth to be held accountable.

16:31Anthony Zurcher:And to get back to the original question, you know, who would hold him accountable? The United States is not a party to the International Criminal Court, so he couldn't really be brought up. The United States wouldn't participate in any kind of prosecution of him or Admiral Bradley. If they were, then Trump couldn't pardon him for that. But if there's some sort of accountability here in the United States, it'd be hard to fathom how that would happen, what body would be reviewing war crimes. I mean, there's civilian trials, military tribunals that could be held, but that is a long way down the road.

17:05Anthony Zurcher:And as long as Donald Trump is president, I don't think there's any kind of realistic possibility of that. Yeah, when it comes to international action, I mean, the most that would happen is they couldn't go to certain countries, I suppose, if they were prosecuted, in which they could be. But as Anthony said, they're not going to be handed over to any court in America that doesn't recognize those courts. I think it's also a wider question. It's not just, we'd rather focus on these two individuals in the sea who were or were not unlawfully killed. I mean, the whole thing strikes a lot of people, including a lot of Republicans, actually, is totally unlawful.

17:37This is international waters. Can you just kill people in international waters if you say that they're doing something harmful to you, even if they are potentially doing something harmful? What's the legality of that? So there are all sorts of threads to be pulled here, which I don't think, you know, the Trump administration is not a great one for pulling those kind of threads. But who knows, in a decade's time, all of the people involved in this might feel that they might fear, I suppose, that they will have to face the news. It could be looked at again by future administration. Thanks, Andre, for that question.

18:06It was a great question. Let's focus. We've done quite a bit of foreign policy today. Let's talk about the thing that we often say people in the US actually care about most, which is the cost of living. We've had a voice note from Daniel. G'day, AmeriCast. This is Daniel from Geelong in Australia. As we approach the end of the year, I'm wondering whether there's a brewing sentiment in America on how the cost of living continues to affect everyday Americans. Trump, of course, promised that life would become more affordable under his presidency, but that doesn't yet seem to have been the case. So if everyday cost pressures continue, could this become an existential threat for Trump and the MAGA movement?

18:42Thanks for the show from someone geographically almost as far away from Washington as possible. And from us. That's a great question. This feels like we need to ask you about your eggs, Sarah. Have they gone up, down, hard-boiled or otherwise? Eggs have genuinely come down in price, and you hear the president talking about that all the time, as he's very proud of that, because they did become a symbol of the cost of living crisis. But other grocery prices have not. And this is yes, yes, and yes are the answers to Daniel's questions about, yeah, is it a problem and could it become an even bigger one?

19:16Yeah, very much so. It's being called the affordability crisis because Donald Trump was elected largely on his promises to bring down prices for ordinary Americans. That hasn't happened. Some people are saying they feel that they're spending more than ever. And he's actually a very rare trip he's taking outside of the White House this week. He goes abroad all the time, but he's done hardly any events or rallies or anything inside America since he was re-elected. He's going to Pennsylvania tomorrow to do something to try and highlight where they have brought prices down and are trying to in other ways.

19:49But his poll ratings have slipped really significantly for the first time. And I would say it's all around about this affordability crisis, not helped by the fact that he says it's a Democrat con and that there is no crisis. And what we know from Joe Biden's administration is telling people that they're wrong when they say that they feel as though they're worse off than they were before is not a great political strategy. Anthony, have you noticed as the price of deep fried turkeys come down?

20:15Anthony Zurcher:You know, I think turkey's all right. Beef actually is really high, and that is a sore point for a lot of Americans. The price of consumer goods in general, electricity is higher. And yeah, so that is something that is a political liability for Trump and the Republicans. I wouldn't go so far as to call it existential at this point, but there is a acknowledgement within the White House, within senior Republican advisers, that Trump has to do something about this, has to try to convince Americans that things are working. And right now, the line from them is things will get better because all the stuff that was in the big, beautiful bill earlier this year is going to start to kick into effect and people's taxes are going to go down and what they're doing with beef, they'll find a way of lowering that.

20:55Anthony Zurcher:And that all is going to make Americans feel better next year. But the clock is ticking. And clearly, there are some Americans, a lot of Americans who feel like the promises Trump made on the campaign trail of lowering prices just haven't been realized, and they're still hurting. Weirdly, the thing that might rescue him, I suppose, is the Supreme Court, if it has a decision about tariffs that is unfavorable to Donald Trump. In other words, it strikes down those tariffs that have come before. It's not all of them, but quite a lot. Some of them, yeah, yeah. Which it could do. And suddenly the tariffs aren't there, and prices go down.

21:28Because the imports are... Yes, so he's able to rail against the Supreme Court plus benefit from what they do to him.

21:43Right, we're off the air now with Matt Chorley on 5 Live, but we are all of us still here and we want to talk a little bit more about this extraordinary document that has been released that attacks European governments, at least, Eastern elites in terms that, as Anthony was saying, echo things that have already been said, but really also put them in writing in a way that is quite stark for a lot of European elites in particular. On the other hand, I think for a lot of ordinary Europeans will potentially hit home. I mean, Sarah, the overwhelming sense you get from it is that they're not willing to give up on Europe entirely yet.

22:23But my goodness, they don't think much of us, to put it bluntly. No, contemptuous, basically. And also with what they think are the political, cultural weaknesses of Europe will lead the economies to grow so weak that they can no longer afford to defend themselves and therefore not be useful allies. So it's not just criticism for the sake of it. They're actually saying Europe will not be strong enough to be worth being allied with if they continue down the path they're going at the moment. And that's where it's got potential consequences for NATO, for whether or not Europe can rely on America and big consequences for Russia and Ukraine.