Americanswers… on 5 Live! Is Chicago really a ‘war zone’?

0:00This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. How has America shaped the world? I'm Asma Khalid, host of the Global Story podcast from the BBC. As the United States marks its 250-year anniversary, we've been exploring the surprising and often hidden ways the US has shaped the modern world. And today on the show, we answer your questions about this moment and what to expect in the years to come. From the BBC, it's the United States at 2.50. Listen to the global story on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.

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1:27Sarah Montague:in Illinois as Donald Trump is expanding his targeting of Democratic-led cities, which he says are defying federal law and have descended into lawless war zones. And there are Trump 2028 baseball caps on sale. What can we glean from this? Is it a sign that the president is really planning to run for office again in another three years' time? Welcome to AmeriCanswers.

1:54Anthony Zurcher:americast americast from bbc news when donald trump calls they say yes sir right away sir happy to lick your boot sir we are the sickest country in the world oh dear are you worried that billionaires are going to go hungry of course the president supports peaceful protests what a stupid question are you still talking about jeffrey epstein

2:21So let's go diving straight in then with a voice note from Michelle in Switzerland. I saw that the official Trump store is selling hats with the logo Trump 2028.

2:33Anthony Zurcher:What's the intention behind this kind of merchandising? It's a new way of asking, the age old question. I think it's quite an innovative way of asking. Yeah, we like this. And I've seen him giving them out, the Trump 2028 hats as well. So, Anthony, I feel constitutionally we have to come to you first on this question. Can Donald Trump run again in 2028? No. Constitutionally, he can't. Presidents are forbidden due to an amendment in the U.S. Constitution from running for more than two terms. Now, there has been talk about ways around this. He could run as vice president and then the president could resign and then he could be elevated to president again.

3:13Anthony Zurcher:And I mean, it all is trying to find technicalities. The Constitution is fairly clear on this. And so it would be remarkable if Trump were able to do it without changing the Constitution. It seems much more likely that he wouldn't run. But someone else that is a close ally of his would run. And then he would exert considerable influence from outside the White House over it. So, yeah, those 2028 hats. I mean, there were there were some in the Oval Office, I think, actually, when the Democratic leaders came by and Trump tried to give them to the Democratic leaders. And and Hakeem Jeffries, the Democratic leader in the House, turned to to the vice president and said, you know, how does it how does this make you feel?

3:56Anthony Zurcher:And J.D. Vance replied, no comment.

4:00Sarah Montague:Now, of course, it only says Trump 2028. It doesn't say Donald. So you never know. They could be repurposed for Eric or Don Jr. Or Barron. Barron's too young

4:12Anthony Zurcher:and you have to be 35 True, I forget this I was going to say though, kind of to answer the question about why is he doing it why is he doing it I mean, as we know, Donald Trump is the expert in rage bait he is the expert in how to get a reaction by doing a stunt that will make everyone start talking about something he is kind of the ultimate troll in that regard and so, I imagine that that's what he's thinking it sparks a conversation and gets people talking about him again yeah and then gets people who don't like him very much to be not very happy about it it also means sarah that he he sort of extends his influence both as president but also within the republican party beyond his term by seeking to own that and make it seem inevitable that he will be the kingmaker or he would be the you know the the puppet master whoever it might be rather than this sort of countdown to the you You know, the, what do you call it?

5:09Not dead duck. Sitting duck? No.

5:11Sarah Montague:Lame duck. Lame duck. You're a lame duck. Yes, if you're coming to the end of a term and everybody knows that you can't be re-elected. So why should they listen to you? Why should they obey you when you're practically out of power? No, and you're right. It does. It creates this kind of omnipresence, which he's very good at doing. He's on television all the time because he's always taking questions from reporters in the Oval Office or when he's making his way to Marine One or whatever. You know, it's great for journalists. He stops and talks to them all the time. But he makes all these appearances as well, doesn't he?

5:41Sarah Montague:At sporting events, at the Open, at the baseball. You know, he just makes sure that he is in front of you at all times. Well, we'll see what difference that makes. They're$50. $50? That's a lot for baseball cap, isn't it? Oh, you should see. When we went out for the... Almost a year ago, when I was in the States for the election, I did some very good haggling of general merchandise. Didn't we bring you a present? and we bought you an umbrella. You did? Yeah, and it was all very expensive. And in fact, one of our daughters, I think, grabbed it one day. Oh, no, didn't realise what was on it. I didn't realise it got Trump 2024.

6:20That was from the inauguration, actually. Yeah, it was, yeah. That's very funny. Anyway, the merch is famously expensive, I feel. Yeah, but it's all part of buying into the gang. Exactly. Right, let's move on then to Donald Trump's campaign to deploy National Guard troops in several US cities. We've had this question in from Ian in London. How common is it for the National Guard from one state to be deployed to another without the other state's governor's permission? Using the National Guard of Texas as the private army of the president doesn't seem usual. Has this happened before without the Insurrection Act being invoked?

6:54If lower courts issue orders preventing it, have troops ever ignored the courts? Thank you. Thank you, Ian. We've also had a question from Dave who says, with the deployment of National Guard troops to cities outside their home states, is the US now in a state of de facto civil war? If not, then when does government overreach turn into civil war? Do Americans want either thing from their federal government? Anthony, can you explain, first of all, what is the National Guard and what is the Insurrection Act for us?

7:23Anthony Zurcher:Right, the National Guard is basically the Army Reserve. They're reserve troops that are under the control of governors and states all over this country. They train, they drill, but they aren't active duty military. They get called up in cases of emergency. National Guard troops were deployed to Afghanistan and in Iraq during the war. They've also been deployed by state governors in instances of natural disasters, for instance, hurricanes, things like that. It is much more unusual hour for the National Guard to be used to to address civil unrest and lawlessness on the streets. And it is very unusual for them to be deployed in an area, in a city without the permission of the local authorities there.

8:09Anthony Zurcher:I mean, I can think of one time when out of state National Guard were deployed, and that was in 2020 during the Black Lives Matter protests here in Washington, D.C. National Guard from from various different states were deployed to protect federal property here. But otherwise, it is extraordinarily uncommon because there is federal law that says that the state governor has to authorize the use of National Guard. And so this is one of those instances where the limits really are being tested by the president by taking Texas National Guard, reserve soldiers from Texas and picking them up and moving them to Illinois when the governor of Illinois and the mayor of Chicago don't want them there.

8:52Anthony Zurcher:I don't know if it's civil war, there have to be people fighting back against them, but it does seem very unlike the United States. And how much can Americans, Marianna, pick through the amount of disinformation that's around about A, why there might be the need for troops, and then whether or not there are troops and what they might be doing? I think what's quite difficult is all of this enters the ever-polarised land of social media. And so depending on which, for example, undercover voters feed you look at, you would get a completely different impression of the reason for bringing in the National Guard.

9:26And the conversation is incredibly fractious online. So you've got people who support it saying, look, this is to deal with Antifa and blah, blah, blah, and all of these different things like anti-fascist groups and it's going to make everything better. And then you've got other people saying, who don't like it saying this is civil war and overreach and everything else. I think for that reason it's quite hard to get the facts of it, not least because it's not happening everywhere but in specific places. And so, as ever, I would be very wary, certainly if you're in the States, about what you're being pushed and whether it just plays into your biases and what the actual facts are around crime or around other stuff in the area that we're looking at or talking about.

10:01So what's the end game and all that? If we're not, as Dave says, in de facto civil war, How does Trump declare victory without just its spiraling sort of never-ending deployment?

10:14Sarah Montague:People have different theories as to what the end game for Donald Trump is with all of this. In the shorter term, the National Guard go in. What we have seen happen is quite firm policing, shall we say, of protests, probably protests around immigration raids or around ICE facilities. If you start firing tear gas canisters and things into the crowd, you know, things will turn nasty. Usually things turn nasty first and then law enforcement would start using tear gas. But you can provoke a riot and then say, look, I was right. The left are destroying our cities, looting, using violent protests. Isn't it just as well that I sent in the National Guard to stamp on this?

11:00Sarah Montague:So he looks like he is the one bringing law and order to the streets of these cities he characterises as being chaotic and says they're already like war zones. So he can, to a certain extent, make that come true and demonise the left a bit as well. I mean, what they are doing is using the National Guard to back up immigration raids. quite heavy-handedly, some might say, when you see Black Hawk helicopters above Chicago apartment blocks and people rappelling down onto the roof in order to conduct an immigration raid. So they are able to back up the immigration raids that we know Donald Trump wants to keep happening across the United States.

11:40Sarah Montague:But there are other people, including the governor of Illinois, J.B. Pritzker, who think that there is a much more sinister idea behind this, which is that over the next year or so, you've got troops on the streets of mainly democratic cities like Chicago, LA, New York, and that they would still be in place come the midterms next year, and that this could be used to suppress left wing votes is what some Democrats claim. And that's a little bit more of a kind of conspiracy theory idea about it. But yeah, and Donald Trump likes to project the authoritarian power that this appears to give.

12:15Anthony Zurcher:At the very least, this normalizes this. This makes it much more common if a president can deploy National Guard to the streets of cities when it seems fairly clear there aren't emergencies. You know, this is not a state of civil unrest the way there was during, say, the Rodney King riots in Los Angeles in the 90s or the protests and riots after the death of Martin Luther King by an assassin in the 1960s. This is orders of magnitude smaller. But if Donald Trump sets this precedent and he wins these court cases saying that he can basically unilaterally declare an emergency whenever he wants and deploy troops whenever he wants.

12:51Anthony Zurcher:That is almost unchecked presidential power to use force and deploy armed soldiers to American streets, which is, you know, an awesome power to be able to have just at his fingertips. It is worth saying as well that on that strength point, almost all of the kind of messaging that's coming from the MAGA crowd is very much in support of Donald Trump. He's, you AI generated images where he's looking like he's got shades on and he's and he's looking like he's doing something strong and powerful and good and those are the kinds of images that Donald Trump is projecting on his own social media feeds but like Anthony says the reality of what that actually means um feels quite contrasted with with the image that's being projected right let's revisit the uh the government shutdown which still has no end in sight it's another thing where we don't know how that's going to end the latest is the US Senate has failed for a fifth time this is on Monday to pass spending measures that would reopen the government, which has led to a fairly predictable war of words between the Republicans and Democrats.

13:49And Donald Trump threatened to withhold back pay from furloughed government workers. We've got Chris, who's just outside Bristol, on the line with a question. Hi, Chris. I'm Matt. Forgive me if I've missed the point, but if the Republicans hold both the Senate and Congress until maybe next year's mid-term elections, how come the Democrats can seem to be able to stop the bill being passed? Why can't the Republicans just pass it anyway.

14:14Sarah Montague:Well, I think the answer to this is because they need 60 votes to be filibuster-proof to be able to get something like these spending measures through. And although they do have a majority, they have more than 50%, they don't have 60 votes. But Anthony will fill us in on all of this. And why a filibuster isn't a filibuster anymore? Because we, Matt, don't we think of it as somebody standing up and talking and talking and talking for hours or days in order to delay a vote? But actually it is something a little bit different from that.

14:41Anthony Zurcher:Yes, I was hoping you explained the filibuster and you did a very good job. In its modern form, the filibuster has been changed to a procedural rule that allows Senate to do other business. But senators, minority senators, at least 40, can put a hold on one specific thing, such as this budget bill, unless the majority can can muster 60 votes to break it. It's not something that's written in the Constitution. It's not something that's that even had been observed over the course of the 249 years of U.S. history. But it is something that in practice the past 30 years or so has been a very real obstacle for the Senate passing major legislation without help from the minority party.

15:25Anthony Zurcher:The most recent time that one party had 60 votes in the Senate was in 2009 with Barack Obama and the Democrats, and they used it to pass Obamacare, the health care reform. but it is a rule that right now is giving the Democrats their one little bit of power, despite not being in the majority, to block the Republicans and shut down the government. Now, funny thing is, if the Republicans decided to change the rules and make it a 50-vote majority instead of 60, they could do that, but that would open the door to when the Democrats get back in charge, being able to pass major legislation with just a simple majority.

15:58Anthony Zurcher:So in the Republican conservative view, maybe a greater check on legislative power and the ability to do big things in Congress is actually worth having a frustrating shutdown for a few weeks right now. I just want to ask you, while we've been talking, James Comey, the former FBI director, has just pleaded not guilty in a federal court in Virginia to charges making false statements to Congress in obstruction of justice. How big a moment is this then, Sarah, do you think?

16:27Sarah Montague:It's huge because this is the furthest along of any of Donald Trump's revenge actions against the people he perceives as being his enemies and his attempt to use the Department of Justice to personally target people who he thinks caused trouble for him. And it's an executive attempted takeover of the Justice Department who seemed to be going along with it. So the U.S. attorney in Virginia said he couldn't find enough evidence to take this case against James Comey forward. There was no realistic chance of getting a conviction. But that infuriated Donald Trump. So he managed to get rid of him and replace him with Lindsay Halligan, a woman who had been one of his personal lawyers, but who has no experience as a prosecutor at all, who within about three days, just before the statute of limitations was about to run out, came up with these charges against James Comey.

17:22Sarah Montague:a couple of weeks ago. And this is him in court for the first time today, being formally arraigned and issuing a plea. And they've set a court date for the beginning of January next year. But I mean, this is, the president is supposed to stay miles away from the Justice Department. He's not supposed to be meddling in it like this. But instead, you can see him using the power of the executive office to personally target people he doesn't like. And that's, I mean, pretty unprecedented, isn't it, Anthony?

17:50Anthony Zurcher:Yeah. Yeah, you don't really have to do a whole lot of line drawing to see Trump wants Comey indicted. Trump thinks Comey's a crook. All of a sudden, they change the apparatus, the personnel in this particular U.S. attorney's office, and Comey is indicted. And here he is this morning showing up for his arraignment, pleading not guilty to two counts, one of lying to Congress and the other of obstructing an investigation. So it is going to all play out here, clearly, because Comey's not going to plead guilty. It'll be an interesting twist to a story that, you know, we've been covering since 2015, 2016.

18:25Anthony Zurcher:I mean, Comey was central to the Russian investigation and those early controversies around Donald Trump.

18:31Sarah Montague:And he might be able to use a very novel defence, mightn't he, of vindictive prosecution, which would be very interesting to see that playing out in court. Wow, it's quite something. Yeah, he says, I'm innocent, so let's have a trial. So we'll await that, the more drama to come. On a similar sort of connected note about Donald Trump's interactions with the justice system. We've got Simon on the line. Hi, Simon. Hi. Donald Trump revealed in recent days that P. Diddy had sought a pardon from the president. Does the president consult other members of his presidential team or the judicial system to come to a decision or simply make a personal choice?

19:03Is any pressure put on the president to steer clear of making unwise or controversial pardons or is it a complete freewheeling decision by the man at the top?

19:12Anthony Zurcher:It is a power that is explicitly written into the US Constitution. that the president has the power to pardon for federal, not state, not little local crimes, but federal crimes. And it really doesn't give a whole lot of other details surrounding any limitations on that power. So there has been a tradition where there are committees, there are groups of people within the executive branch that make recommendations on pardons and then hand them through the bureaucracy to the president who signs off on them. But that's not the way pardons sometimes work. A very famous pardon happened in the 70s with Gerald Ford pardoning Richard Nixon.

19:51Anthony Zurcher:Here we are, Richard Nixon again, for any crimes he may have committed. And then Donald Trump has used the pardon power pretty much unilaterally without any kind of consultations to pardon allies, politicians he thinks were wronged. And in theory, he could use it to pardon P. Diddy. I will note that also Joe Biden used the pardon power pretty frequently in the final days of his presidency to pardon his son, Hunter, for the guilty plea he had had and other investigations into him, as well as pardoning some of the people who were critics of Donald Trump from any kind of investigations, Anthony Fauci, Lynn Cheney, also Liz Cheney also.

20:33Anthony Zurcher:So it is interesting to see Donald Trump could do it if he wanted to do it, and he could do it by the stroke of a pen without anyone else telling him one way or the other.

20:41Sarah Montague:and i suppose elaine maxwell's looking for a pardon as well isn't she that's that would be