Americanswers… on 5 Live! Why has Sydney Sweeney's jeans ad sparked a race debate?

17:11And that is a Vance thing. And he has friends in this country. You think of Morris Glassman from Blue Labour. There are various others as well. The guy at Cambridge University is about to start a reform-supporting think tank. He does have tentacles around the world. He has interests around the world. He is interested in kind of big picture stuff. And that's where, as a vice president, I mean, it's a hopelessly difficult job to do well and to succeed in. And that's probably a good place for him to be. It's probably a good place for him to be. Yeah, 100%. And that good place might be the Cotswolds.

17:45Great question. Thank you for that, Colin. Thank you. Thanks very much. Right, we move on. Let's talk about South Park. So, Dale has emailed a question to americast.bbc.co.uk. Dale says, hello, AmeriCast. The recent South Park episode that poked a lot of fun at Trump did raise an interesting point. Is Trump censoring via litigation? He won't try to outright ban speech, but he has made it clear that if you go for him, he'll sue you. You said before that even when you successfully defend yourself, it can ruin you financially. With the CBS payout, is this likely to be the weapon of choice for Trump moving forward?

18:19Or can courts shut down these cases quicker without the eye-watering legal bills to protect free speech? Mayona do you want to explain first of all what happens in the South Park episode

18:31Marianna Spring:yeah so I mean essentially all of this is kind of you know I haven't even watched the South Park episode but I have read about the South Park episode and essentially all of this is poking fun at Donald Trump and the way in which I mean we've highlighted this before this kind of awkward tension that exists between his very strong support of freedom of expression in the First Amendment and saying that kind of anything goes because he doesn't like speech being censored versus then taking repeated action, civil lawsuits against media outlets who basically kind of cut interviews in ways he doesn't like or agree with or say things about him in interviews.

19:11Marianna Spring:Which is what happened with CBS. Which is what happened with CBS or ABC where people say and do things, you know, ask questions of him which he feels are not exactly in line with what he actually did or said, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So I think it's particularly interesting when we think about the alternative media world who aren't often subject to the same scrutiny or regulation or whatever it might be as the traditional media and who say all sorts of things. And I'm particularly interested around this Epstein stuff. There are some alternative media outlets that have gone quite far in what they've said about Donald Trump.

19:40Marianna Spring:And it would not surprise me if he at some point considers taking action, but he doesn't want to be seen to be targeting them. The thing is about the South Park stuff. Number one, it's really genuinely funny. Number two, the South Park have an ability to go right across the board with their satire, and that sort of protects them. They're from a place where Americans think of them as being authentic satire, rather than the late-night shows that have become just anti-trust. You can predict where they are at all the time. Yeah, you can put every word of them. You can't do that with South Park. And the makers of it have just signed in a massive deal.

20:13I mean, really big money, like billions. $1.5 billion for 50 new episodes plus streaming rights to the show. So does Donald Trump take on them and their owners and all the rest of it? Probably not. So they're in a very, very powerful position, a position that other people aren't. But also, and I think there's a really crucial point about all of this, that he can take on organisations where the organisation that owns the media outlet has other fish to fry, other things to do, take over. And they try to get things through the government. They didn't notice the news stuff. In the South Park case, because the South Park deal itself is so big for everyone concerned, that's not going to be an issue.

20:53Marianna Spring:Also, it's just worth adding that on this point, when something's satirical or funny, it doesn't... Like Donald Trump's... What often plays in his favour is that he's seen to kind of... I don't know, he's seen as a bit funny or says things that are a bit funny. If he starts then having a go at people who are laughing at him, it's different to stuff with media organisations where he's accusing journalists who are very serious of having got stuff wrong. That's interesting. Yeah, it's a very different tone. Him seeming like a good guy who likes a laugh is part of his brand. Yeah, and if he's seen not to be like that, then that could be a problem which the people involved with South Park will know.

21:24In fact, they have issued an apology. South Park co-creator Trey Parker made a short joke apology when he was asked about the episode during a panel at Comic-Con International in San Diego. Did you anticipate the reaction today? Have you been following it? What do you make of it? We're terribly sorry.

21:45Fair enough, fair enough. That's it. That was the full extent of it. I'm not sure. I don't know if he was sorry. Well, you can stand up to Trump when you've got billions in the bank and you've just signed a new deal. You've just signed a new deal. And it's amazing. It's amazing there, Jill. Just finally then, we'd be remiss not to talk about Sydney Sweeney, who has appeared in an advert for some jeans, and it's sparked an enormous row about racism, beauty, and cancel culture. So if you haven't seen it, it's basically it's just Sydney Sweeney puts on some jeans. And then the tagline says Sydney Sweeney has great jeans.

22:15Jeans are passed down from parents to offspring, often determining traits like hair color, personality and even eye color. My jeans are blue. Anyway, Donald Trump was asked about Sydney Sweeney and her membership of the Republican Party. Sydney's a very hot actress right now. She's a registered Republican. Oh, now I love her ad. Is that right? Is Sidney Sweeney? You'd be surprised at how many people are Republicans. That's what I wouldn't have known, but I'm glad you told me that. If Sidney Sweeney is a registered Republican, I think her ad is fantastic. OK, thank you very much, everybody. Everyone's gone wild for it.

23:01Marianna Spring:But it's one of these adverts, and actually lots of Donald Trump's social media content and content that's been coming out of his kind of wider team does this as well, that is very successful at sparking a reaction. And that particular reaction is often outrage. And that's why it's been all over social media. It's been recommended by the algorithms because people are reacting to it. Like you say, some people have been saying, hang on, is this some kind of weird play on like eugenics? Eugenics. No, it's just genes. Is it poking fun at all of the stuff around diversity and equality and inclusion and some of the policies that Donald Trump has scrapped, etc, etc?

23:38Marianna Spring:Is it a kind of play on wokeism or not, quote, wokeism, etc, etc? And it has therefore done a good job of raising the profile of the brand, which is sort of what it intends to do. And it's a classic example of where everyone reacting to something is exactly what it was meant to happen. It's a trap. It's a trap to get the Democrats to start to be upset about a pretty white woman. I've never seen her before or heard of her, but she apparently is quite attractive. She's wearing jeans. Apparently quite attractive. Apparently quite attractive. I'm told, Your Honour. Some people like jeans with a J, some jeans with a G.

24:16It really... But it's such an unremarkable advert. I can't believe they even expected this.

24:22Marianna Spring:No, I think they did. Yeah, so there's important context here, which is Sydney Sweeney has appeared in a number of adverts recently that play on the fact that she is a young, attractive actress. I'm told. I'm told, apparently. So there have been these adverts about like, I can't remember what it is exactly, like soap or cosmetics or something like that. They have my bath water. She's the soap made from bath water. Yeah, all of this kind of stuff. and it's deliberately like quite sexualised and playing on that. And it winds up people who like to be bad. It's not the first jeans advert in the world ever to be sexualised.

24:59No, of course not.

25:00Marianna Spring:But what they've done is they've chosen her and, well, this is what I would imagine the team have, although obviously I could be very wrong, but they have deliberately played on this in the same way that a lot of these other adverts kind of play on the issue of misogyny. It kind of has the slight feel that they're playing on, not race necessarily, but just like being a little bit close to the edge in terms of people thinking that they're talking about actual genes, not genes. I mean, they've come out and really defended it and said, you know, this is about Sydney Sweeney, it's about her genes.

25:29Hang on, which genes are the actual genes?

25:31Marianna Spring:Yeah, American Eagle, the company, have come out to say, yeah, her genes. And they've used genes like J-E-A-N-S. But it's obviously triggered this whole reaction. I was showing Matt and Justin before we were chatting, these videos of dogs in genes, like showing off in their genes, etc. You desperately try to find some wholesome content in your algorithm to drown out all the other stuff. I really think it's a trap for them because I think one of the things the Democratic Party has to grapple with next time round, next presidential election, and indeed before then, is are we going to be censorious?

26:03Are we going to be constantly complaining about the words people use and the humour and all the rest of it? Also, frankly, do we not like white people, which is another big issue for the party. And all those things they've got to grapple with, then it's not easy and the answers to those questions aren't easy because they're complex issues. And, you know, if you're running a political party, lots of people will disagree, etc., etc., etc. But if you start going after Jean's adverts, I think you're on a hiding to nothing. Well, there we are. Plenty for you to chew over. And as entirely predicted, Mariana, somebody's texting in, who is that Russian-speaking spy woman you've got on the radio at the moment?

26:41Marianna Spring:They probably heard me say that. Thanks for that, yeah. Spasibo, Balshoi. and the same to you too thanks so much for that that was AmeriCast with Justin and Marianne and obviously you can catch AmeriCast wherever you listen to your podcast every week, three episodes a week? three, including this one plus emergency episodes and obviously if at any point you want to catch up on anything everything is always on BBC Sounds at all times

27:12Righty hey that was that we've just come off the air with Matt Chorley. Marianna's still with me. We need to talk more about Sydney Sweeney. We really do, Marianna. The apparently attractive actor

27:21Marianna Spring:that Justin's never heard of. I think one of the things that we didn't talk about in full when we were giggling away with Matt there was about actually some of the context of this, not just the ad campaigns that Sydney Sweeney has taken a part in, but also how there's been quite a lot of speculation over her political background on social media for quite a while, mainly because she's been popping up in some of these ads that have sparked controversy with people saying, oh, hang on a second, And she's sort of, some people think, you know, she's poking fun at cancel culture. She's sort of subverting narrative.

27:49So she's already part of the political conversation.

27:51Marianna Spring:Exactly. Other people are saying, actually, what she's doing is just earning money from, for example, misogynistic advert campaigns or stuff that actually isn't funny. And I don't find it very funny, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And therefore, it came as perhaps not that much surprise to some corners of the online world that she's a Republican or that she was registered. So it came up, it kind of started to spread online and then was reported by quite a lot of media outlets. that she had registered to vote in Florida and had said that she was a Republican when she did so before Donald Trump got elected this time around.

28:22Marianna Spring:And quite a lot of people have responded less so with shock and more so with, well, this makes sense because of the kinds of ad campaigns she's taking part in and the sorts of narratives that she's kind of playing into, etc. It's kind of interesting. She's obviously very young and also part of the kind of Hollywood, what you might call the Hollywood elite. I think it's quite symptomatic of what we've chatted about before, which is the making MAGA cool again thing, which is that it's not cancelable to actually be openly. Is that what you're going to say? Exactly that. I mean, I think that point that you make is so important because you can still in the modern political world, you can get fooled into thinking what's important.

29:01Oh, it's the Sunday shows. Oh, it's the newspapers. You know, I've got a wonderful editorial supporting me in the Wall Street Journal or whatever it is. Well, yes, maybe to you and your mom and your friends, but actually what really matters in American politics now, and it's probably going to the West of the Western world as well, is this business of influences and sudden things that take fire for reasons that are not clear. As you've explained to us over the years now, actually, you don't know quite what it's going to be. You don't know how it goes. It is genuinely got to be a risk taking venture because otherwise it's not authentic.

29:37and this jeans company has taken a risk basically just as that beer company took a risk with Dilla Mulvaney, the trans activist and it didn't pay off. And people have been comparing the two quite a lot actually

29:51Marianna Spring:because they were kind of advert campaigns. So that was this company Bud Light and they used Dilla Mulvaney, a trans activist, as part of their campaign and it sparked a whole lot of conversation, a lot of which was quite negative. Now the thing is... You've got such a polite way of putting it. No, but the same with this in some ways has also sparked quite a lot of negative conversation. But I think the question is where from whom? And there are some valid points raised that some people feel uncomfortable about the sort of underlying, the undercurrents of the advert. And people are perfectly entitled to those views.

30:24Marianna Spring:But I think this idea of like this is likened to, for example, Nazi propaganda. Like a lot of people are like, whoa, hang on. This is an advert about jeans. I don't think that's what they're trying to do. And ultimately, if you look at, there's been some reporting that it's basically been good for the stocks in American Eagle and it wasn't good for the stocks in Bud Light. And that kind of tells you probably about the wider public opinion in terms of these issues and what people care about and don't care about. And also plays with the minds of people who you probably, if you are a Republican supporter, she apparently is, and certainly lots of people who are supporting her, plays with the minds of a group of people.

31:02So if you do go down the racial or even hint at going down the racial corridor, you are also offending people who you want to offend and you want to kind of get going and you want to upset. And I think, you know, I don't know the extent to which they thought this through, but those who are now kind of pushing it and stressing the G in jeans, as they would see it, it works for them because it upsets those people and that works for them politically.

31:31Marianna Spring:This is the kind of approach that Donald Trump often takes is that he will make something controversial, which a lot of people will see as kind of satire or a bit of a joke. Some people will be disgusted by and not like very much. And ultimately, you kind of take a step back and say, well, it's your decision how you interpret what we've done. But we didn't mean anything by this. We just meant X, Y or Z. And that's sort of how it works now. And I find it quite interesting that people still don't seem to see what is designed to be rage bait, as we often call it, or designed to trigger outrage. It's a bit like being picked on in the playground and every time reacting.

32:04Marianna Spring:Yeah, I know. They help themselves and you've taught us that because it's about algorithms that just get you going. Well, then they get, then, you know, now it's now, not only has this sparked a whole conversation online, it's also been covered by the media really widely. As I say, you've got dogs dressed up in denim. You've got like trends that it's spawned. There are people kind of taking the mickey out of it. You've got all sorts of stuff. And again for the Democrats, if, as is now said, and it's so true, it is a truism now, that attention is the new money in American politics, that the fight is for people's eyeballs and their attention, whether it's negative attention or positive attention, then something like this gets a massive amount of attention.

32:43and the Democrats again sort of are left wondering what can we do on our side that garners this attention, that gets people going, that riles up our side in a good way and says, yeah, this is great, in the way that this jeans advert apparently has, at least among some Republicans. And they are still looking for how to do that and not doing it at the moment successfully.

33:07Marianna Spring:Final thing I would bring up is, do you remember when you said to me, celebrity endorsements do not matter. They make no difference. they are completely unimportant well this isn't necessarily a celebrity endorsement but I think celebrities particularly younger celebrities like Sidney Sweeney who frequent the online world and are kind of almost like a hybrid I guess between influencers and celebrities they can be influential and that can be both positive and negative there are people who will think oh I quite it makes me like Donald Trump more because I think he's kind of cool and I get it and it's a bit funny and it's taking the mick and everything else there'll be some people who will be like actually this doesn't really fit with me or I don't really feel like this is what I think Donald Trump stands for.

33:49Marianna Spring:This is elites again getting involved and I'm not so sure about this. And there are things about this that could ultimately backfire at some point for Donald Trump. But at least for now, it's quite helpful to him probably. I found it quite interesting in that clip when he was saying, well, now she's voted Republican, I like her. And that he didn't actually just like it off the basis of the ad, which would have very much been up his street because it's designed to be provocative. But maybe he just hadn't seen it like you. the apparently attractive Sydney Sweeney. I won't live that down, will I?

34:18No, but you're right. You're right and I was wrong and not for the first time. That's it. That is definitely all we've got time for from Mariana and me. Bye-bye.

34:26Marianna Spring:Bye.

34:30Marianna Spring:AmeriCast. AmeriCast from BBC News. Well, look, thanks for listening all the way to the end of today's AmeriCast. You are now officially an AmeriCaster. It is, of course, a ride, a wild ride navigating the US news, particularly in the era of Trump. You have made it. If you have a comment, a question about the things we've talked about or anything at all, actually, get in touch with us. The email is americast at bbc.co.uk. The WhatsApp is 0330 123 9480. We answer your questions every single week, actually, on the podcast. So keep them coming. You can join the online community as well on Discord.

35:07The link is in the podcast description on your app. We will be back with another podcast very soon. So until then, see you later. Bye.