Charlie Kirk's killing: A dangerous moment for America?

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1:20America is once again facing the horror of political violence. Charlie Kirk was not elected to any high office, but he was an enormously influential voice on the right of American politics. He was only 31 years old. He leaves behind him a wife and two young children. He was a friend of President Trump, and he did a huge amount to get President Trump elected for his second term. What impact is the killing of Charlie Kirk going to have on the United States? Welcome to AmeriCast. americast americast from bbc news you're gambling with the lives of millions of people you're gambling with world war three president trump's message is very simple we are done being taken advantage of mr president in the name of our god have mercy upon the people who are scared now are you supportive of these onesies i'm supportive of vaccines what is happening like this is not America!

2:17This is a terrible nightmare. This is what victory feels like. Yeah!

2:32Hello, it's Sarah here in the BBC's Washington Bureau. And it's Justin in the worldwide headquarters of Mericast in London, England. And it is Marianna sitting next to Justin in the worldwide headquarters. Only one subject to discuss today. Marianna, bring us up to date. Tell us what we know about what happened. So I'm sure that a lot of people who are listening to this episode, AmeriCasters, will have heard the news about Charlie Kirk. Charlie Kirk, who was 31 years old, was a very, very prominent conservative activist, social media influencer, media personality. And he was starting this tour around different university campuses because he's really well known for having debates with students about particular issues, people he doesn't agree with, people he agrees with.

3:11and he was at Utah Valley University yesterday speaking inside a white tent when he was shot and killed. There are loads of very, very, very graphic clips of this which, to be honest, have been quite hard to miss really that are quite disturbing. And he was actually answering a question about mass shootings in America just moments before he was killed. So do you know how many transgender Americans have been mass shooters over the last 10 years? Too many.

3:44It's Biden. Now, Biden's a lot, right? I'm going to give you some credit. Do you know how many mass shooters there have been in America over the last 10 years? Counting or not counting gang violence. We know he was shot and killed. We know that there's an active manhunt right now for the person who did it. So this story is very much evolving. And as ever, that means there's a huge vacuum in terms of people speculating about why this happened and how it happened and everything else. When you say right at the beginning, Marianne, he's a huge figure. You can't overestimate, actually, can you, his reach really among young Americans, the importance of him.

4:19I was talking to a congressman earlier today who said he thought he actually thought that Donald Trump would not have won last time round without Charlie Kirk's help. So he was an extraordinary figure. He brought to Trump a load of young people who I don't think otherwise would have bothered to vote. But it's a much more varied thing, isn't it, than just the politics of him? Because he had this podcast and my daughter, Clara, the American citizen, very aware of him, actually knew about the attack on him and his death before I did. friends of hers I was talking to who are not American citizens just young people in in Britain in their 20s an awful lot of people know about Charlie Kirk and feel whether they agree with him or not and plenty actually who are aware of him don't necessarily agree with him because he had some pretty extreme views and all sorts of things but there is just this sense exactly as you said he was a talker he was someone who wasn't just spouting off his own stuff and just putting it out there.

5:23He actually wanted to engage people. And it seems to me, isn't that right, Sarah, that that is the key to who he was and what he was trying to do? Oh, absolutely. And he was prolific. I mean, he was a broadcaster and a podcaster spreading this message. But at the same time, he was out there organising youth groups and students, as well as taking part in live debates himself all of the time. And that was one of the things that he did. He said he would take on and debate anybody who wanted to come and disagree with him. Now, as you say, there were a lot, a lot of people who didn't agree with him.

5:54But among those who think that he was absolutely material to Donald Trump being returned to the White House is Donald Trump himself and close members of his family and many important people in the administration. So they are in shock at the moment about this. I was at the White House yesterday when, firstly, when the news came in that he had been shot and there were gasps around the place and people looking extremely worried about it, it became obvious quite quickly that the White House had a bit more information than was being released publicly yet and Donald Trump started referring to Charlie Kirk in the past tense before there had been an announcement about him actually having been killed.

6:33By the time that information was widely known, people were openly in tears, White House staff, And a lot of people then gathered on the north lawn to watch the flags over the White House being lowered to half-mast, which happened pretty quickly. And you could tell. There's always shock when there's a political killing like this. But this was sadness, grief and anger that was perpetrating the White House. And that is a measure of what a big figure Charlie Kirk was, but also what impact this might have. Yeah, I don't really think it's possible to overstate how influential Charlie Cook has been, because in lots of ways, he's the pioneer of a certain type of blueprint for a certain type of political influencer or activist in the social media age.

7:20He started this group, Turning Point USA, when he was just 18. And the whole point of it was to spread conservative ideals, to talk about conservative issues, discussions at what were considered liberal leaning, left leaning US colleges, often on very, very controversial subjects. But I think it is worth saying that one of the reasons why Charlie Kirk was so effective at what he did is because he was very, very good at getting that content, clips of him, clips from his podcast, promoted to people beyond the echo chamber as well. People who don't agree with you, because a lot of this is about outrage.

7:55It's often what we call sort of rage bait and his positions. Therefore, there are some people who really, really, really took serious offence to some of the positions he held and others who liked them. Let's hear a few of those positions. Why I believe that abortion should be legal is because of instances like rape and incest. But I already know that your belief on that, because you've already stated that if your daughter were to be raped at 10 years old, you would make her give birth to the baby. Well, the baby would be delivered. And let me tell you why. And so, but first of all, let me try to find common ground.

8:23If I say we will make rape and incest abortions legal and get rid of all the other abortions, would you agree with that? Yeah. See, I don't believe that abortion should be used as a form of birth control. So 99 % of the time it is. That's all that we're debating in the country right now. So Charlie Kirk's position is a very fringe minority. People are talking about still exceptions. So we should get rid of 99 % of abortions. Yes, but at the same time... I'm a gay conservative, and I just want to kind of ask you, like, what do you have to say for people like me who kind of feel like it's kind of hard for gay conservatives because there's not a lot of us?

8:54So, like, what do you have to say to other gay people who need to realize, like, they do have a choice? Yeah, first of all, welcome to the conservative movement. I don't think you should introduce yourself just based on your sexual attractions. No, I agree. Because that's not who you are. I like to be thought of as a person. For sure. You are a complete human being, and I'm sure you treat people well, and you're studying something. So I want to get away with this idea that you're gay anything. I just think that we have gone a long way in the negative direction in this country, where we act as if the most important part of your identity is what you do in the bedroom.

9:24It doesn't mean that much to me, but if you ask from a perspective as a Christian, I don't agree with that lifestyle. You will never live in a society when you have an armed citizenry and you won't have a single gun death. that is nonsense it's drivel but i am i i think it's i think it's worth it i think it's worth to have a cost of unfortunately some gun deaths every single year so that we can have the second amendment to protect our other god-given rights the new communication strategy is not to do what bill clinton used to do where he would say i feel your pain instead it is to say you're actually not in pain.

10:00So let's just a little very short clip. Bill Clinton in the 1990s, it was all about empathy and sympathy. I can't stand the word empathy. Actually, I think empathy is a made up new age term that does a lot of damage. And the Civil Rights Act, though, let's be clear, created a beast and that beast has now turned into an anti-white weapon. I mean, like, you want to go thought crime? Like, I'm sorry. If I see a black pilot, I'm going to be like, boy, I hope he's qualified. So like you right now should come out and be like, you know what? The young man who's about to win the state championship in the long jump in female sports, that shouldn't happen.

10:34You as the governor should step out and say no. No, and I appreciate. But like, would you do something like that? Would you say no men in female sports? Well, I think it's an issue of fairness. I completely agree with you on that. That actually, that last clip that we heard there was really fascinating because that was with Gavin Newsom. And Gavin Newsom, the governor of California, when he decided to do outreach to those who are the enemies of the Democrats, The first person he chose was Charlie Kirk. And for all that he's labelled by some as an extremist and all the rest of it, he felt that Charlie Kirk was the right person to come on his show and to defend, indeed to proselytise for the right-wing point of view.

11:13And he, Gavin Newsom, would come up against him. And, of course, that actual, their discussion there caused quite a new stir because Newsom chose, I don't think it was forced out of him by Charlie Kirk, But Newsom chose that moment to say on this issue, Charlie Kirk, which is men and women's sports, he, Gavin Newsom, was willing to be persuaded by Charlie Kirk. Some AmeriCasters might be a little bit shocked by some of the things that he said in that montage because they're not part of mainstream debate in the UK. But they are, of course, talked about much, much more often in the US. And that's one of the things that Charlie Kirk did was not just enthuse young people and get them involved and excited in politics, but he moved issues.

11:52like what he's talking about on abortion, on race, into the mainstream argument. He was material in taking what were kind of fringe ideas about 10 years ago or something and turning them into mainstream political discourse, which, of course, allowed space for Donald Trump to come in and maximise that because he wasn't just somebody who disseminated a Trump message. He helped to shape that message. He took some of Donald Trump's more raw political instincts and had a way of honing them into something that was easier and better to communicate than Donald Trump himself sometimes articulates these things and spread them through the political debate, making them both acceptable, popular and thus paving the way for Donald Trump and very much certainly for his second term.

12:43And this is one of the reasons why he will be missed so very, very badly by people in the administration who are devastated by this and by people in the wider movement, because he was he was an intellectual of it all who both had his fingers on the pulse of the grassroots and could report that back to the White House and also take what Donald Trump wanted to do and and help find a way of selling that. And that's almost certainly why Donald Trump sounded quite as angry as he did when he recorded a video in the Oval Office that he then put out last night. This is a dark moment for America. Charlie Kirk traveled the nation, joyfully engaging with everyone interested in good faith debate.

13:26His mission was to bring young people into the political process, which he did better than anybody ever, to share his love of country and to spread the simple words of common sense. On campuses nationwide, he championed his ideas with courage, logic, humor, and grace. It's long past time for all Americans and the media to confront the fact that violence and murder are the tragic consequence of demonizing those with whom you disagree day after day, year after year, in the most hateful and despicable way possible. For years, those on the radical left have compared wonderful Americans like Charlie to Nazis and the world's worst mass murderers and criminals.

14:17This kind of rhetoric is directly responsible for the terrorism that we're seeing in our country today. And it must stop right now. I was shocked when I watched the president doing that last night, because that is certainly not the message you normally get from top politicians at a time like this, when there has been this kind of political violence and atrocity. It's usually a moment of unity when everybody from all sides of the political debate come together and condemn political violence. And that's what was happening with every living former president put out a statement saying this is completely unacceptable.

14:55This is not who America is. it is undermining our democracy to have political violence like this. But not Donald Trump, who, of course, he was angry, but was demonizing part of the political debate, blaming them for Charlie Kirk's murder. And he then went on to list a number of other Republicans who've been attacked, referencing, of course, the attempt on his own life in Butler last year, which was absolutely terrible. But he left off that list. The Minnesota lawmaker who was shot in her home with her husband a few months ago, another one who was attacked. He missed out the attack on Josh Shapiro, the Democrat governor's house in Pennsylvania.

15:38You know, he listed only people from the right who had been attacked and blamed the left for it. And I was I was genuinely worried that it sounded incendiary. And I think, Justin, we've had an email on this topic as well, haven't we? Yeah, it comes from Mike in Portsmouth, who says, I've just watched Trump's response to the Charlie Kirk shooting. He seems to be going full partisan rather than trying to calm the situation. He's pouring mountains of petrol on it. Can you have a mountain of petrol anyway? Yeah, he says, Mike also says it's almost as if he's going to use it as an excuse to try and become ever more authoritarian, even more authoritarian than he was trying to become anyway.

16:16Am I reading it wrong? Mike asks. I hope so, because from where I'm sitting, the omens of that response are not good. I was thinking as well, just to back up what you were saying, Sarah, as well, when we were listening to Charlie Kirk on the subject of abortion, certainly when I was doing your job, attacks on abortion clinics were a really big deal. Attacks by people who regarded themselves as right wing and an abortion as a progressive left cause, which I suppose it generally is. and abortion rights as a progressive left cause. And it became, you know, when you go to an abortion clinic, as we all have done in our professional lives, to go and talk to people because it has been such an issue in American politics and culture recently, you know, there is security, there is real fear, and there were killings as well.

17:02I mean, there were murders. So it's not just that Minnesota case that you mentioned that is from this year. There is also a wider way in which if you are on the left, the kind of moderate left, you might say, well, hang on a second, Donald Trump should have mentioned exactly as Sarah said, Mary, and it should have mentioned a few other things as well. You need only scroll on X. Obviously, there is a huge amount of grief, outpouring of support, upset for Charlie Kirk, his wife, his two little kids. But then there's also there's really violent language being used to kind of say, right, we need retribution.

17:34This is it. We've had enough. The left need to stop this. And then if you look on, for example, TikTok, which has got a bit of a different demographic to X, you've then got people on the left who are saying well hang on a second you know these kinds of influencers use violent rhetoric and the politicians do on the right and this is the consequence of that and it becomes this you know it further entrenches the polarization which people have said that they're worried about yeah i just sarah my feeling i think you're exactly right in what you were saying about about what trump said but there is a sense isn't there and it's a reasonable sense that a lot of people on the right in America recently, including Donald Trump himself, have been targeted, called authoritarian, called fascist, called whatever.

18:21And that has somehow allowed a whole cohort of people, and it is often young people, and it's often online, so maybe they don't quite mean it or whatever, to use incredibly violent rhetoric in a way that maybe they wouldn't have done in the past. I mean, I'm thinking, Sarah, about Luigi Mangione, the guy who is accused of killing that insurance executive in New York. People will remember he was shot in the street. He's got a wife and a young family. I mean, that death, I mean, it's not putting it too sharply to say it's been actually celebrated by some on the American left who say the insurance companies have got it coming to them and this individual had it coming to him etc there is a kind of nastiness there that albeit i agree with you about trump generally speaking but i mean he is pointing at something that is real oh he is he is just because i'm saying he wasn't uh he didn't reflect that it was happening on both sides doesn't mean that he hasn't put his finger on something about um the vicious language that's used on both sides of the debate but yes people like charlie kirk are regularly being compared to nazis and mass murderers.

19:30Luigi Mangione genuinely celebrated around the country by some people who think it was heroic to go up to a healthcare executive and murder them in the street. And when you have reached the point where people are applauding political violence, and of course, we know that Donald Trump feels this very viscerally because he knows how close he came to losing his life just over a year ago in Butler, Pennsylvania. And then there was another pretty realistic assassination attempt on him a few months later as well. So he feels it viscerally how frightening this is. So I'm not surprised that he's got a pretty strong reaction to it.

20:14I do think that we should also point out, when we talk about examples of violence that have happened across the political spectrum, including targeting people on the left, We think of, for example, the attack on Nancy Pelosi, the former Speaker of the House's husband, and political violence that was triggered, for example, by the suggestion that the election was stolen when Joe Biden won. There was also on the right support for some of the people who'd done this stuff. There was. Like, there were people who kind of celebrated the man who attacked Nancy Pelosi's husband or spread conspiracy theories about that.

20:48So I think it's worth saying that the level of polarization here is huge. Like both sides are guilty of rejoicing and celebrating. I think what people on the right on social media would argue is, well, yeah, OK, we'll do that. But we are much more open to debate and discussion. And the left aren't. The left would say, well, hang on a second. You know, you are always the people telling us that words, you know, words don't matter online. It's inconsequential. Why are you worried about the consequence of it, etc.? And now you are. So there's like levels of hypocrisy sort of across the board here when it comes to the positions.

21:22that people are taking. I think what is worth explaining though, when we talk about that language that Donald Trump used and actually some of the language that's being used on X, which is really quite violent and quite scary, this language is incredibly common. Like I think people can't, you know, there are lots of people who are really shocked today because they're looking at it, but it's used all the time. And I think that that visceral reaction that we're seeing online and even from the president comes down to what a big deal Charlie Kirk was and how he felt like a family member or someone who was really, really close to Donald Trump and actually to huge amounts of the American public who knew him really, really well.

21:58Last night on The Megyn Kelly Show, conservative media commentator Emily Zsuzhinsky, she captured this, which is why people feel so, this is so emotional. Yeah, and just to say about Emily, before we play the clip, and it's a really interesting exchange because it's with Megyn Kelly, isn't it? Who we also talked to, I think we've talked to on the pod and I've certainly talked to on my other job in the Today programme. I don't know her as well, but Emily, I know well, And she is a conservative commentator, but she's also someone who's very fair minded. And this exchange, I think, which you're going to introduce now, I think is fascinating because in a sense it underlines what Sarah's just been saying.

22:32But this is a really big cultural deal as well. I mean, he's almost as close to monoculture as Gen Z gets. Everybody felt like they knew Charlie Kirk, even if they didn't like Charlie Kirk, they felt like they knew Charlie Kirk. They felt like they knew Charlie Kirk and they saw him grow up. And so I think you've mentioned this a couple of times. We are, if anything, underestimating as a society right now how profoundly this will reverberate on the culture. Yeah, yes. I don't know if the left fully comprehends how important he was to us. I really don't. I'm not sure they appreciate. They try to marginalize him and make him into this fringy character who is just some sort of nutcase who would go on campuses and stir up shit.

23:19That is such a misrepresentation of this noble person. Love him or hate him, I think the left would make a big mistake if they were to underestimate the influence that Charlie Kirk had, but also the affection within which he was held because of the way he conducted himself. He had very confrontational points of view. He had some quite controversial ideas. But he was always, you know, he was open to debate. He was genial. He was extremely charismatic. And he clearly had quite a long way to go in American politics as well. So, you know, he will be seen as a martyr. Donald Trump described him as a martyr last night.

23:58And that's going to have a pretty profound influence as well, I think. And it's worth mentioning, isn't it? I mean, when it comes to being a cultural icon, if we're really underlining just how key he was and what a big hole is going to be there now and how angry people are going to be, to be on South Park in any way, shape or form. I mean, Donald Trump is a lot at the moment and possibly in a form and a shape that he doesn't want to be. But for most people, it's the honour of a lifetime to be parodied on South Park. And in the current series of South Park, Charlie Kirk was and he liked it. First of all, I just think it's hilarious.

24:37And secondly, the whole thing is like, wait, so a campus thing I've been doing for 13 years to debate random college kids has now been so important that it gets prominent primetime placement on Comedy Central. I think the whole thing is just awesome and hilarious. There's so much more I want to say about this. But the whole shtick, by the way, Comedy Central, South Park, you crushed the water. I compulsively drink water on campus. It's like, okay, boom, we got to stay hydrated. Now the lozenges, we got to work a little. By the way, the Holy Bible right next to it. I even said on this campus tour, I was going to bring a Holy Bible with me to every single campus stop.

25:17I mean, that does sum up to a certain extent the way in which he was, you know, he was able to take a message out into the wider culture and, you know, and enjoy and not mind being mocked about it. That was part of his charisma. It's worth saying, isn't it, Sarah? And we maybe ought to have mentioned this more prominently, but we can mention it now that mainstream Democratic politicians have been unanimous in coming out and making very strong statements and senior people. So we heard from Obama, didn't we, and Biden and Gavin Newsom? Every living president has. Right. Yeah. I didn't know that.