Could a conspiracy theorist change the MAGA view on Ukraine?

0:00The funeral of the Republican Senator Lindsey Graham has been taking place in Washington, D.C., with guests there from around the world, including the Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, Ukraine's President Zelensky, and the U.S. President Donald Trump, who did the eulogy in his own inimitable style. He was extremely hawkish. I will tell you, he never saw a war that he didn't like. Only his true friends would understand that, but he wanted it for the good of our country. He felt in his bones that our destiny is to win and that his job was to do everything he could to ensure our enemies would lose.

0:35And he had the ear of Donald Trump. Now that Lindsey Graham is gone, one person in particular has been trying to position herself as a replacement. Hey everybody, Laura Leamer here. I am currently in Ukraine at the world famous Skyfall drone manufacturing facility. I am holding the P1 Sun drone interceptor. And you may have seen this drone interceptor recently because it's the same exact drone interceptor that was held by Senator Lindsey Graham just two days before he tragically passed away. It is really dizzying. That is the MAGA influencer and conspiracy theorist Laura Loomer, who has gone from saying that Ukraine is full of Nazi sympathisers to declaring her support for Zelensky and for his country during an interview with him.

1:21What on earth is going on? We're going to try to answer that question today. Welcome to AmeriCast. AmeriCast. AmeriCast from BBC News. You hear that sound? Oh, I think when I hear that sound, it reminds me of money.

1:37Anthony Zurcher:We didn't start this war, but under President Trump, we are finishing it.

1:41Marianna Spring:This is a big cover up and this administration is engaged in it. This guy has Trump arrangement syndrome. I have four words for you. Turn the volume up.

1:57Marianna Spring:Hello, it is Marianna in the worldwide headquarters of AmeriCast in London. And it's Justin sitting next to her. And it's Anthony here at my home in Arlington, Virginia. And Anthony, you've been at a funeral. Tell us about it.

2:08Anthony Zurcher:Yeah, the Lindsey Graham funeral at the National Cathedral. I've been to a few of these big National Cathedral memorial services now. There's a certain pomp and pageantry to them that is familiar. And I think it reflected Lindsey Graham's life and the fact that there were foreign dignitaries, as you mentioned there. Vladimir Zelensky, Benjamin Netanyahu, Alexander Rupp, the president of Finland, as well as a bunch of different senators and almost the entire presidential cabinet, Donald Trump and J.D. Vance sitting in the front row. Where we are in the media, we're up on a little balcony that is kind of off to one side of the altar.

2:46Anthony Zurcher:And one of the most interesting things to do is to sit here, and I had a little pair of binoculars to look down and see the interactions between all of these people as they wander in and talk to each other. You know, they're all there for a funeral, kind of like you and I would be. But these are the most powerful people in the world. And look at the body language. Look at what they're saying. Look at who's talking to who. You saw Howard Lutnick, the Commerce Secretary, just go around and glad hand all sorts of different people up and down the aisle. He's a very gregarious guy. You saw Zelensky in some very intense conversations with some of the senators who would later vote on a Russia sanctions bill that evening.

3:25Anthony Zurcher:You would see the Marco Rubio and RFK Jr. and Pete Hegseth, all of these cabinet secretaries, all kind of milling around and chatting. So that's interesting. I was struck by the fact that this was slightly more partisan affair than you normally see in these types of memorial services. I remember John McCain's funeral, Barack Obama, and George W. Bush spoke. Here it was Trump. He was the main center of attention. It was, you know, despite the fact that this was Lindsey Graham's funeral, it was still kind of Trump's show as well. Yeah, and he made the most of it, didn't he? Let's listen to a bit of him.

4:02Running against each other. Back in 2016, Lindsey said something rather nasty on his flight to becoming the next president of the United States. So naturally, I did something that I shouldn't have done. I shared his personal cell phone number with the millions of people that happened to be watching that particular day. As I made a speech, a very important speech. And I remember the number 202-228-0292, if anybody wants to give it a shot. His phone exploded. He said, I had that number for 20 years. His phone totally, I don't know what he did with it, but it exploded. it that was the beginning of a friendship in a way but it was lindsey who had the last laugh because while i blew up his phone all for one day we became great friends and lindsey did not stop calling me for the next 10 years it was not easy anthony we should just explain what that comes from so he's running against trump and and of course i mean it's worth reminding everyone isn't Before we get into anything else, at one stage in Lindsey Graham's life, he didn't like or appreciate Donald Trump at all.

5:16Anthony Zurcher:He was highly critical of him in very explicit terms and critical of Trump's rise in the Republican Party, saying it was going to be the end of the Republican Party. Now, I don't know if you remember what Graham did with that phone, but I do. He actually engaged in a series of viral videos where he destroyed that cell phone and a bunch of other different cell phones. It actually was probably the highlight of his campaign, the most attention he got. He'd never even made it to the Iowa caucuses. He dropped out before then. But yeah, it was just a sign that there was tensions there at first, but a testament to Graham's endurance politically, his ability to maneuver himself in Washington, that by the time he died, he was a close confidant of the president, one of the major voices on foreign policy and an interventionist foreign policy in Donald Trump's inner circle.

6:11Marianna Spring:And Anthony, Sean Hannity, who works for Fox, was there, wasn't he?

6:14Anthony Zurcher:Yeah. And that's one of the reasons why I said earlier that this felt like a bit more of a partisan affair than a typical memorial service at the National Cathedral. Hannity, of course, is a conservative firebrand on Fox News, and he had Lindsey Graham as a guest on regularly. He said Lindsey Graham was good for ratings. But then he went on to kind of obsequiously talk about Lindsey Graham up in heaven and his relationship with Donald Trump here on Earth. Lindsey, Mr. President, I would argue in my mind, probably has a heavenly version of Mar-a-Lago. It may even be a little bigger. He may have a little more gold in the Oval Office in his mansion in heaven.

6:58And I wouldn't be surprised if he added one big beautiful ballroom and an arch somewhere on the property, because he would want to obviously duplicate his dearest friend in life, you, Mr. President. Lindsay, my friend, goodbye for now. We will see you again. We will finish the work that you started well done good and faithful servants servant enter thou into the

7:28Anthony Zurcher:joy of thy lord godspeed lindsey graham another thing that struck me as pretty remarkable was that when donald trump finished his eulogy he got a round of applause i don't know how many memorial services and funerals that you two have been to but getting applause for delivering a eulogy is struck me as a little odd. Now, we're saying right at the beginning, Laura Loomer now tries to take the place of Lindsey Graham. So cue you, Marianna, because who is she? Why does she matter?

7:59Marianna Spring:You have to say that Lindsey Graham may be turning in his coffin at the prospect of Laura Loomer being the person to fill the gap that perhaps he's left in terms of being a very sort of like strong advocate for particular bits of foreign policy. Now, Laura Loomer is a notorious MAGA influencer. She's been widely criticised for spreading conspiracy theories, saying stuff that is misleading or not true or hateful. She's always defended herself and argued that, you know, her points are points you can make when it comes to freedom of expression. But one of the things she's been particularly vocal about has been Ukraine and not in favour of Ukraine.

8:37Marianna Spring:She's very much, you know, she suggested that Ukraine is full of Nazis. She's echoed and parroted a lot of the Russian propaganda points about Ukraine. But now she has made a kind of sharp U-turn and she has suddenly decided that actually she is concerned about Ukraine and that she sympathizes with them in their war against Russia. She interviewed Zelensky, which we chatted about in the Q &A episode, which was a pretty big deal because she'd been so critical of him. And then she actually seemed to kind of like him by the end. Now she's done this interview in Politico where essentially she's basically said, I'm happy to be the envoy for President Trump and maybe I'm the person to step up here now that Lindsey Graham has died.

9:19Marianna Spring:But I think probably this is symptomatic of a power struggle that is occurring within MAGA influencer land and more broadly, the influencers themselves looking to either cement themselves for or against Donald Trump or within his circle or outside of it. And Laura Loomer is someone who has traditionally been seen to have the ear of Donald Trump or been keen to present herself as close to him and his inner circle. Yeah. I mean, she has had his ear, hasn't she, Anthony, in the past? There's no question about her closeness to him.

9:49Anthony Zurcher:Yeah, controversially. If you remember during the 2024 campaign, she was riding around on Donald Trump's airplane and getting attention because of that. And it rekindled all these concerns about her extremist views and conspiratorial theories. And Donald Trump didn't. I think she got moved off the plane for a little while, but clearly Donald Trump did not fully cut himself off from her. And she has only become, I think, Marianne, it's safe to say, more influential within these MAGA circles since Donald Trump returned to office. I think it's kind of amazing to think that she might style herself as a replacement for a senator who has been in office or had been in office for more than 20 years who has this foreign policy portfolio.

10:38Anthony Zurcher:But maybe that's just a reflection of the times.

10:41Marianna Spring:Yeah, and I think that it's important to underline that a lot of her influence as an influencer lies not just in perhaps being able to have a conversation with Donald Trump about some of these issues and perhaps to, you know, views that he may or may not take on board, but actually in the fact that she is an influencer, right? So what she says on topics, a whole lot of people who follow her on social media will take her lead on what she thinks about things. in the same way Donald Trump does that in a kind of big way with the MAGA influencer sphere. These people like Laura Loomer, and we can talk about Tucker Carlson and Candace Owens, have really committed followers who generally take their cues from them.

11:17Marianna Spring:And so the influence Laura Loomer has here is that, you know, if she pivots, as she seems to have done on Ukraine, that then means that there's a portion of the MAGA influencer community who also pivot on Ukraine, who are like, oh, OK, maybe I don't hate Vladimir Zelensky now. Maybe I actually like him. So take, for example, the interview that she did, which she's posted all over X. And I mentioned before some of the comments she's made about Ukraine that are not so favorable. For example, this tweet that she did in September 2025, where she said Ukraine is a country full of Nazi apologists. Now compare this with what she says to Zelensky in the interview, which she's just recently done.

11:53It was very interesting to see the McDonald's sign and then eating my burger and my french fries and my Coca-Cola with a blown out building from a ballistic missile. And people couldn't believe it. I'm sure you saw the comments online, but it's a testament to how resilient people are ordering their food, walking around, going grocery shopping, taking their dogs out. It's almost like they're so used to it, it doesn't even affect them. But it's an American business. And I think that a lot of Americans need to see that it does affect our country because, you know, I'll admit I've said some pretty terrible things about Ukraine and terrible things about you as well.

12:31openly on social media. I mocked you. I was part of the group of people in the United States who was very frustrated by the state of my country. I'm a Republican. I'm not a Democrat. And so I was very unhappy with the United States sending billions of US tax dollars to Ukraine when our own country is suffering.

12:51Marianna Spring:Now, if we were going to be less cynical here about why she's done this, e.g. maybe it's not entirely about her own political career, if we're going to call it that or her pivot from influencer to almost like politician or envoy or however you want to characterize it i do think this is a really good example of where people can say things on x or social media or whatever it is something that is particularly extreme or misleading or hateful and then when they're confronted with the reality of what people are actually experiencing they're like oh that has really like myth busted what i believed it kind of feels like this might have happened to laura luma almost like she's sort of come out of the ukraine russia rabbit hole a bit but obviously there is this very not an undertone really more of an overcurrent that she'd like to perhaps play a role in Donald Trump's government in some way.

13:35And to be fair to her she's pretty clear isn't she in her apology I mean you heard it there to Liz Zelensky to his to his face but I mean she she's said hasn't she she was bamboozled she used that word bamboozled by Russian propaganda because she used to do piece pieces for for RT, for the Russian channel, state-run channel, Putin-supporting channel. I came to believe a lot of untrue things about Ukraine. So, I mean, you know, in an era where people are loath to admit ever that they changed their minds about anything, I'm going to say, I mean, well done in a way, as you'd say well done about anyone who goes online and says, I think I used to believe things I no longer believe and here is why and just sets out the case.

14:19I do wonder what her supporters are going to make. You suggest, Mariana, that her supporters will just say, OK, that's fine. We also change our minds.

14:26Marianna Spring:I think it depends on how authentic they consider her position, which I think if you actually listen to the interview, you are more convinced that she genuinely has changed her mind about the situation rather than it just being a sort of shrewd political tactic or move. and I think that when it comes to social media and authenticity quite a lot of followers will be keen to believe her because they feel like she is being honest and open one of the things that I sort of took away from the interview itself is it really marks like this new style and I say this to you Justin is like a very experienced you are an incredibly experienced interviewer like that is not an interview like the kind of interview you would carry out as a journalist like basically most of the questions are kind of like thoughts and then they're in a conversation which I think is probably positive from a like they are building bridges basically it's almost like a reconciliation of some you know it's like when um you get two people who disagree with each other to to meet and to discuss something and they find some common ground it's it's more like that than an interview and it's interesting because there's this bit where when she's sitting down she says so are you going to release it or am i which is this new weird dynamic that like you're kind of unclear like who the interviewer and interviewee like who is interviewing who i think that's a really interesting point because actually it goes to the whole podcast business as well which is that if you treat it like an interview and i'd sometimes do one-to-one interviews for for us but i don't do it in the style that i would do for a my day job interview for the for a news program in in britain and anthony it's worth saying isn't it that the president i don't know how much of it he watched

15:55Anthony Zurcher:in any great detail but he approved yeah he he did he uh loomer posted it on social media again this is how people communicate, this president communicates. She talked about her interview with Zelensky and Donald Trump reposted it with a very good three exclamation points, President DJT. So he did clearly, it did make it onto his radar. And you have seen a shift from Donald Trump on Ukraine, on his views on Russia in recent months and whether he's leading the charge or following something is happening here where there is a shift among the right wing and Donald Trump. Now, some of the Loomer stuff is still conspiratorial.

16:38Anthony Zurcher:She accuses Russia of being woke and that their communists are trying to corrupt American politics and still blames Democrats for a lot of it. But at the base of it, where she really does have influence and a say with Donald Trump in particular, in this administration in particular, you're seeing an effect. And I was very amused that David Axelrod, the former Obama advisor, big cheese in the Obama White House, he was on CNN and he was asked, Anthony, wasn't he, why Zelensky had done it? Why on earth is he giving time to Laura Luma? He says, all I can think of is, my goodness, the things one has to do to save their country.

17:16And he then went on to make the point, which is an interesting one, isn't it? That Axelrod is saying he's not really, Zelensky is not interested in Laura Loomer's supporters, whether or not they support her still or not. He is interested simply in Donald Trump. And if this is a person who can make the difference with Donald Trump, then it really does matter. And it's that, Anthony, that you do wonder now whether can we see we started off talking about Lindsey Graham and the sense and Donald Trump telling us that Lindsey Graham used to ring him all the time. And it was quite a nuisance. But you know why he was calling him.

17:58He wasn't calling him to pass the time of day. He was calling him in latter days, particularly about support for Ukraine, particularly about going after Iran. He had particular things he wanted to do. So does Laura Loomer get now into that role? Is there anyone else who's got that role? Because as Mariana was saying earlier, a lot of the right wing people online are going in their own directions and actually probably are less influential than they were.

18:28Anthony Zurcher:Yeah, you know, I kind of scoffed at the contention that Laura Loomer could replace Lindsey Graham as an influencer on Donald Trump. But maybe reconsidering that a bit because, yes, they're very different. Lindsey Graham was old school, working the corridors of power, trying to get himself into the inner circle of the White House a more traditional way. Laura Loomer doesn't do that, but they both clearly do have an influence or did have an influence on Donald Trump and his foreign policy views. And I think we saw a little bit of that just last night when the Senate, as I had mentioned earlier, had voted on this Russia sanctions bill.

19:05Anthony Zurcher:And they voted almost overwhelmingly 80 something to 10 to advance this measure that would impose sweeping new mandatory sanctions on Russia and Iran. That was a sweetener thrown in as well. But the key was on Russia. And this is something that Graham had been advocating for two years. And the reason why this ended up passing was because Donald Trump and the White House signaled that they would support it, allowing all of these Republicans who are worried about Donald Trump's opposition to go ahead and vote for it. So I don't know whether you see it as a lasting legacy of Lindsey Graham that in his death he was able to achieve this one last goal or more inflection of Donald Trump seeing that his base was more open to the idea of punishing Russia.

19:51Anthony Zurcher:Whatever it is, that is a change in policy or could be if this makes it through the rest of Congress and becomes law. Just to drill down a bit, Anthony, on that Senate vote. I mean, it's interesting on the broad headline, but it's also interesting about what it says, particularly what it says about tariffs. Yeah, that was ended up being one of the more controversial provisions of this bill. And one of the reasons why some Democrats ended up voting against it, despite the fact that the Democrats were the ones who were, along with Republican anti-Russia hawks like Lindsey Graham, really pushing for a sanctions bill to get through.

20:27Anthony Zurcher:And the reason is because it gives Donald Trump new tariff authority. It gives him the ability to put 100 % tariffs on the top five importers of Russian energy. So China, India, all of a sudden Donald Trump has new discretion to be able to wield the Tariff Act on some of these countries that he had tried to put tariffs on before and had his wings clipped. So there was concern among Democrats that you're opening Pandora's box here. You're giving Donald Trump another tool to use after some of the other ones have been taken away from him to impose tariffs willy nilly. And they actually added a provision before this vote to address some of those concerns because people were worried that, well, it wasn't just banning people or tariffs on people or countries who imported oil, but also countries that facilitate the importation of energy.

21:19Anthony Zurcher:So Trump could even use it on Germany or France or the UK or allies. And they did change and add a provision that says any country that brings in less than 15 percent of oil or natural gas from Russia and is trying to reduce that, they can't have tariffs applied. But this is going to go back to the House of Representatives. It's not a law yet. Well, first of all, it has to have final passage in the Senate. Looks like that will happen. But when it goes back to the House, there are going to be Democrats there who are, again, worried about, oh, here we go again with Donald Trump getting terrorists and being willing to use them and push the boundaries on them any way he can.

21:57Does it play, Anthony, into the J.D. Vance versus Rubio debate? I think so.

22:03Anthony Zurcher:I think the division within the Trump mega sphere, the Republican Party is very well illustrated by those two men who are the two who are put forward even by Trump himself as the potential heirs to his empire. empire, and they have decidedly different views on foreign policy. They may be relatively similar on domestic issues, but when it comes to America's role in the world explicitly, Marco Rubio over the past decades have been interventionist. He's been tough on China, tough on Russia. He's been an Iran hawk, maybe not as much as Lindsey Graham, but certainly one who has been in favor of putting more and more pressure on the Iranian regime, whereas J.D.

22:47Anthony Zurcher:Vance, in his short time in politics, has campaigned on non-interventionism, on getting the United States out of foreign entanglement, certainly any kind of forever wars and wars in the Middle East. He's been very clear through background quotes and various ties to media pieces that he objected to the Iran war, that he was a voice to try to keep this from happening. So while they both profess to not being at odds, not that there's some sort of a rivalry between the two of them. I think when you look at that dynamic within this administration, you can definitely see those tensions, those fault lines there between the way those two men have operated in their views.