Did Donald Trump fall asleep at a cabinet meeting?

0:00Anthony:This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK.

0:30No bouncing between tabs. And best of all, no spreadsheets. Stop managing software and start managing your business with one unified system. Try for free today at odoo.com. That's O-D-O-O dot com. With the new Schwab Teen Investor Account, teens can gain hands-on investing experience and build positive money habits. It's an account co-owned by you and your teen, so you can monitor and engage with the account while your teen learns how to invest and manage money. Learn more at schwab.com.

1:01Anthony:For the first time, a full explanation from the Secretary of War, Pete Hegseth. Well, foolish, I suppose. This was an explanation about what happened before a follow-up strike on a drug boat in the Caribbean. I did not personally see survivors, but I stand... Because the thing was on fire. It was exploded in fire or smoke, you can't see anything, you got digital. This is called the fog of war. The accusation being that there were a couple of people still in the water who provided no threat to anyone, but they were killed anyway. And that would be a war crime. It all happened at the cabinet meeting that has just taken place.

1:38Anthony:Donald Trump as well going on a rant about Somali immigrants. We will get to that. We'll look to everything else that happened in that meeting because, as they always are, it was newsworthy. Welcome to AmeriCast. AmeriCast. AmeriCast from BBC News. When Donald Trump calls, they say, yes, sir, right away, sir. Happy to lick your boot, sir. We are the sickest country in the world. Oh, dear. Are you worried that billionaires are going to go hungry? Of course the president supports peaceful protests. What a stupid question. Are you still talking about Jeffrey Epstein?

2:19Hello, it's Sarah here in the BBC's Washington Bureau. And it's Anthony right next to Sarah here in Washington, D.C.

2:24Anthony:And Justin, all on my lonesome in the worldwide headquarters of AmeriCast in London, England. Which means you're so far away, Justin. We can only virtually get around our own table to discuss what was happening at that cabinet meeting yesterday because it was quite an event with Donald Trump making a lot of news there. So we got new information about those military strikes on boats off the coast of Venezuela, which we heard about from the Secretary of Defence or the Secretary of War, Pete Hegseth. There was news on more immigration crackdowns in new US cities and reasons why we're further speculating about Donald Trump's health as well.

3:01Right. So these cabinet meetings have become must watch under Donald Trump. In fact, cabinet meetings generally were snooze fests during previous presidents. They didn't happen very often. There's no requirement that a president even has to have these kind of formal sit downs in the cabinet room with the head of all the 14 different cabinet departments, as well as the vice president, and some other senior presidential advisors. But Donald Trump likes them, and he's held nine of them so far just this year. And what they end up being is several hours worth of each member of the cabinet giving a bit of a presentation, showering Donald Trump with praise, telling him what a great job he's doing and then what they're doing.

3:45You go around the table all the way around and back to Trump, and then he takes some questions from the press. And it was in those questions that most of the news that you talked about happened, although we did find out about the immigration stuff when Kristi Noem, the Homeland Security secretary, was talking. If it needs to be said, this is not normal. This is not the way cabinet meetings have been conducted in the past. So for one thing, the cameras are there for all of this. I mean, it's very deliberately a televised event. Every cabinet secretary saying what they've achieved in their department, as well as praising how wonderful Donald Trump is.

4:17This took two hours and 15 minutes yesterday for them to go around the table and then to take these questions, all broadcast live on television, which left them with how long for the actual cabinet meeting? I mean, less than an hour, I think. So, I mean, they're must watch because they're spectacles that have been devised by Donald Trump precisely for that reason.

4:33Anthony:And it's worth saying that even that cabinet meeting isn't a cabinet meeting in the sense that the British cabinet meets and the prime minister is primus inter pares, first among equals, and the cabinet can gang up on him or her and there can be all sorts of real arguments at cabinet. That doesn't happen. Doesn't happen under Trump. And actually, to be fair, really hasn't happened under previous presidents. So having said that, there were things, weren't there guys, that came up at this cabinet meeting, and I'm using that with kind of inverted commas, that were genuinely interesting and newsworthy.

5:06Anthony:And I suppose we should start with Pete Hegseth, with the Secretary of War, as he styles himself, because we've got this news that we've already talked about previously, that there is at least an allegation that there was an order to kill people on board a boat in the Caribbean, suspected of carrying drugs, when the boat had been immobilised already and quite a few people were already dead. There were two people still alive, reportedly clinging to the vessel, and then a second missile was launched to comply, it is alleged, with the orders of Pete Hegseth, the secretary for war. And what was interesting is that he, at this cabinet meeting, gave what I think is fair to say is his first more detailed response, albeit it didn't tell us an awful lot, but it was a more detailed response to those allegations.

5:55Now, the first couple of strikes, as you would, as any leader would want, you want to own that responsibility. So I said, I'm going to be the one to make the call after getting all the information and make sure it's the right strike. That was September 2nd. There's a lot of intelligence that goes into that, building that case and understanding that a lot of people providing information. I watched that first strike lie. As you can imagine, at the Department of War, we got a lot of things to do. So I didn't stick around for the hour and two hours, whatever, where all the sensitive site exploitation digitally occurs.

6:25So I moved on to my next meeting. A couple of hours later, I learned that that commander had made the, which he had the complete authority to do. And by the way, Admiral Bradley made the correct decision to ultimately sink the boat and eliminate the threat. So that's really interesting listening to that from Pete Hegseth. And I just want to parse it for you a little bit. So he says, as any leader would, you've got to own that responsibility. And he's going around saying this, you know, I'm the secretary for I take responsibility for this. And then he names Admiral Bradley and goes on and on about how he made the decision which he had the authority to do.

6:57This is almost exactly what Caroline Levitt said in a briefing on Monday, naming Admiral Bradley and praising the decision that she said he made legally and had the authority to make. I think this is a very deliberate strategy from Pete Hegseth not to own responsibility for this decision, but to pin it firmly on Admiral Bradley, if you actually read carefully all of the statements that are coming out of the administration. Right. And it's a shifting story from this administration. At first, they denied that there was any second strike. They said it was fake news. Donald Trump, in comments on Air Force One over the weekend, said if there were a second strike, he wouldn't be all that happy about it.

7:36but he didn't know anything about it, kind of laid it at Pete Hegsess' feet. Then, as you mentioned, Caroline Leavitt and the Pentagon acknowledged the second strike. And then you heard Hegsess specifically talking about it. And then he was asked in a follow-up question, well, did you see any survivors when you were in the room after that first strike? And this is what he said. I did not personally see survivors, but I stand, because the thing was on fire. It was exploded and fire or smoke, you can't see anything, you got digital. This is called the fog of war. The fog of war. Pete Hankseth loves these kind of military terms and he sprinkles them in all of his comments.

8:16But I guess what he's saying is that it's impossible to know if there were people in the sea and that he got up and left and had all of his other meetings. So he didn't have a chance to come in. But again, getting back to what we talked about on Monday, which is if it was determined that there were survivors clinging to the side of the boat. And that strike was specifically, that second strike was specifically designed to kill them in order to keep there from being any survivors. That's a violation of Pentagon rules. That's a violation of the Geneva conventions that would constitute a war crime.

8:48You're not allowed to shoot prisoners. You're not allowed to go on a battlefield and shoot people who are wounded and out of action, out of combat. The question, I guess, then is when or if they determined that there were survivors and what decision was made after that. And we still don't know yet, although there are congressional committees now, bipartisan groups of congressmen and women who are looking into this and want to know more. There's just one thing I want to clear up. In the Washington Post story that reported this first on Friday, they said that Pete Hegseth had given the order, kill everyone.

9:23Did they say when he had said that? Because if that was the order at the very beginning of the operation, kill everyone, then Admiral Bradley could have interpreted that as an order to initiate a second strike to kill any survivors that are left without Pete Hegseth needing to know anything about there being survivors or a second strike. Or is the Washington Post alleging that after the first strike, realising there were survivors, it was at that point that Pete Hegseth killed everyone?

9:47Anthony:Are we saying that there are definitely going to be hearings now and that they'll be able to subpoena all the stuff that they need, including all the documentation and all the video, etc. Can we be certain that to the extent that Pete Hexeth is in difficulties over this, that it is now going to transpire? It's actually going to happen? I think you've seen the chair of the Senate Armed Services Committee, a Republican, Roger Wicker, I believe, say that he wants access to the tapes, that he wants to talk to Admiral Bradley. Now, whether there's going to be public hearings, I don't think there's any indication of that yet.

10:21And usually when you get to these military committees in Congress, they tend to be a little more secretive. But I think we can also expect that if there is damaging information and they're going to see these videotapes, everything, all of these strikes are taped, if there's damaging information or things that reveal some sort of misconduct or a violation of military rules and guidelines, I think we'll probably find out about that even if there aren't formal hearings. So yeah, that's right, Anthony. There's not any public hearings scheduled yet, but Admiral Bradley is going in to speak to members of the Senate Armed Services Committee.

10:58Senate and House both. So Democrats and Republicans he's going to have a meeting with. Yeah, but behind closed doors, presumably, we won't necessarily get to hear what they've got to ask him about what happened there. So yeah, I think this story has got legs, as they say it. There's so many questions here about, you know, who decided what when. And I suspect There's a whiff of what's coming from the White House that suggests that we haven't been given the whole story yet. Right. And all of this fits into the larger questions about the legality of these strikes. I mean, this is obviously the most pointed incident, the one with the most reporting.

11:33But there are questions about whether what this administration is doing targeting civilians. They aren't military. They're designating them as narco terrorists and military combatants and treating them as such. but they aren't uniformed military officers. They're civilians on boats. And we only believe that they're narco-terrorists because the administration says they are. All of this is kind of operating in a legal gray area. And this is only going to make those questions all the more pointed.

12:04Anthony:I wonder if it either encourages or discourages the next step, as it were, which would be a land attack on Venezuela, which people have been talking about and which some in the MAGA coalition would regard as a complete abrogation of everything that Donald Trump came to power promising not to do, essentially not to have wars around the place, not to invade countries, etc. The real suggestion now, including from him in a way, that that is a real danger, that they may be trying to force Maduro, the president, out, that they use military force. And I mean, you could say, well, all of this complicates that.

12:36Anthony:But I suppose you could also say, couldn't you, that it actually would provide a welcome distraction from the point of view of the White House and from Pete Hegg. So they just moved ahead and there was something else for everyone to talk about. Yeah. And Trump himself during that cabinet meeting said that land strikes are next. These people have killed over 200 ,000 people, actually killed over 200 ,000 people last year. And those numbers are down. Those numbers are down. They're way down. and they're down because we're doing these strikes and we're going to start doing those strikes on land too.

13:09You know, the land is much easier, much easier. And we know the routes they take. We know everything about them. We know where they live. We know where the bad ones live. And we're going to start that very soon too. I mean, it's not just speculation. The president on the record has said that land strikes are being planned and not just potentially against Venezuela, but also in Colombia, too. He says, we know where the bad guys are, where they live. And he definitely indicated that that is the next phase. But is that the last phase, or is that just part of a larger campaign in order to target and topple the Maduro regime, which Maduro doesn't seem like he's going anywhere, and they seem to be digging in.

13:53And Maduro is asking the Russians and the Chinese for help. So the potential for this to escalate is very real. And I was just looking at some of the numbers of U.S. military hardware in the region. I mean, this is the Caribbean where, you know, there's dozens usually of military personnel. There's 15 ,000 American servicemen on boats stationed in Puerto Rico and in other bases right now. There's an aircraft carrier. There's an amphibious task force. There's a nuclear attack submarine. There's aircraft wings. There are soldiers on the ground. This is a massive buildup, and it gives Donald Trump the potential to launch a comprehensive land, air, and sea campaign basically at a moment's notice.

14:35This is a buildup that is much more than just targeting a few boats. It has the potential to be something much, much bigger. We've even heard the Pope urging Trump not to take action in Venezuela. But, yeah, the question is, is it a threat to Maduro, or is he serious about it? And I guess we will find out in the coming weeks.

14:56Anthony:Talking about threats, he wasn't terribly pleasant, was he, about people from Somalia. Let's hear a couple of the things that he said. I don't want them in our country, I'll be honest with you. Somebody said, oh, that's not politically correct. I don't care. I don't want them in our country. Their country is no good for a reason. Their country stinks. And we don't want them in our country. I could say that about other countries, too. These are people that do nothing but complain. They complain. And from where they came from, they got nothing. We don't want them in our country. Let them go back to where they came from and fix it.

15:33Thank you very much. Yes, the Somali migrants are in Trump's crosshairs because of a financial scandal that happened in Minnesota, where there was a charity put together that was fraudulently billing the state government for meals for children during COVID-19. There was a trial in that. Somebody was sentenced, I think, in August to about 28 years in prison. And there were a number of Somali immigrants all implicated in this fraudulent scheme, which actually ended up costing the state about 300 million dollars. So, I mean, you know, there is some significant criminality from a small number of Somali immigrants in Minnesota.

16:13But Donald Trump seems to have used this to target the entire population in the state, which I think, Anthony, is the largest Somali population outside Africa is based in Minnesota or Minneapolis and St. Paul. Right. It's a large population. And most of them are hardworking immigrants who are trying to make ends meet, working in factories, working in slaughterhouses. they're you know they're being painted with a very broad brush by Donald Trump and and in a kind of a larger thing this is the way Donald Trump views a lot of immigrants you know that that they aren't they aren't any good that you know if they come from bad countries then they don't have the potential to contribute to America just because they're the country they came from is bad which kind of undercuts the whole idea of you know this nation as a home for immigrants who were trying to make a better life for themselves and fleeing, leaving destitution and poverty and warfare.

17:08Anthony:And he has the ability to do that in particular in a way that appeals to people who don't like Ilhan Omar, this congresswoman who is of Somali descent and who is very outspoken, member of the squad, the progressive left squad of female congresspeople. And there is this kind of sense that I think Donald Trump is tapping into, that, yeah, come to America and be grateful for coming. And I think a lot of Americans, although they might not necessarily approve of the language, and they certainly wouldn't suggest that all Somalis should be painted in this way. But there is this kind of sense, isn't there, that Ilhan Omar has tended over the years to play into, which is that if you do come from somewhere that is war-torn and you're taken in by the United States, you ought to, you know, if not say that you're grateful every day, then at least be respectful of the country that you've come to and try to make the best of your time there.

18:09Anthony:And as Anthony said, lots of Somalis do. And I've actually saw, I saw the election, the first election of the first Muslim congressman, who was Keith Ellison, who not a Somali himself, but very much was dependent on their votes when he was first elected to Congress. And I went and saw him with those communities and with those people, actually, exactly the people, kind of people that Anthony mentions, people who are very hardworking but very much wanted to be part of American life, were thrilled, actually, that they had this congressman who was going to support them. And Keith Ellison eventually went to Somalia himself.

18:45Anthony:That's how important it is, this link to these people. He went to Somalia and visited the president and all the rest of it. There is a real link there and tens of thousands of immigrants, particularly from Somalia, who feel themselves to be close knit. And all of those things are kind of fine and would be fine with most Americans. It's just that sometimes when they are represented, whether it's by the criminals who've just been discovered doing this wrongdoing that Sarah was mentioning, or whether it's politically by Ilhan Omar, this Democratic congresswoman. There's just this sense, actually, I think it is fair to say that they are ripe to be targeted in this way because of the attitude that they seem to have towards the country that's let them in.

19:30And it's not just the language that Donald Trump uses, describing an entire community as garbage. There are legal implications for Somalis in America on this. So first of all, Somalia is one of the 19 countries on a list where just this week the White House has announced that they're pausing all immigration applications from. But for people already here, anybody who is living in the United States on the temporary protected status program for Somalis in Minnesota, Donald Trump has announced on Truth Social that he is removing that status, which presumably means they will then be here illegally because that would be the sole basis on which they're living in the United States.

20:08Now, that won't be everybody from the Somali community, but it may be a very significant number. And he's going to be sending immigration agents into Minneapolis specifically looking for Somalis who have either overstayed their visas or are already in possession of a deportation notice. Now, they don't go around to the addresses of people whom they know exactly who they are when they do this. They target pretty much anyone who they think looks like a Somali, then checks out whether or not what their immigration status is and whether or not they're due for deportation. And that's what the fear among the wider community and the mayor of Minneapolis has been talking about this as well.

20:46Even if you are specifically targeting people who are in the country illegally, and that can have huge consequences for the legal population to get swept up in this and sometimes when we talk about these immigration rates and say oh well look you know there are a lot of people very happy for people who came into the country illegally to be deported from it there's a collateral damage that happens to the wider community who gets swept up in all of this right and i think we have to view this in the context of minnesota in particular and And Tim Waltz, who is the governor of Minnesota, Democrat who ran as vice president, as a running mate for Kamala Harris in last year's presidential election.

21:23And he has gotten under Donald Trump's skin. And so he has targeted Tim Waltz in particular in a Truth Social post. He said Minnesota under Governor Waltz is a hub of fraudulent money laundering activity. And that's the announcement where he said that they were suspending the TPS as protected status for all Somalis. He talked about Tim Waltz again yesterday in the cabinet meeting, saying he was an awful governor and saying that he lost the debate with J.D. Vance, a vice presidential debate with J.D. Vance. So there's a lot of grudges that Donald Trump is settling here. So it's not just, you know, the fact that there's this investigation and conviction of Somali fraudsters, but also, you know, there's politics behind it in Minnesota as well.

22:09Anthony:Yeah, because the wider point, isn't it, or the wider allegation, we don't know if it's true or not, but the wider allegation is that one of the reasons why it took some time for all of this fraud to be uncovered was that people were either worried about being accused of being racist or actually within the Democratic Party, very aware that this is an enormously important community for them electorally, and they didn't want to upset Somalis who might be community leaders. So there is that kind of undercurrent, isn't there? And I'm not suggesting that that is necessarily true, but it's interesting that there is that undercurrent to all of this, that the state that Tim Walz is in charge of is somehow kind of behind the scenes implicitly doing a deal with these people whereby the state goes easy on them and they vote Democrat, to put it really bluntly.

22:58Anthony:And that kind of thing, if it is said by Donald Trump, would need to have some evidence behind it if it was to be believed more widely across the country. But there is this kind of, exactly as Anthony is saying, there's this sense that Tim Walz himself and that the Democrats in Minnesota are politically vulnerable if anyone can pin this on them. Yeah. And then if you look at what Stephen Miller, who is, I mean, officially, he's the deputy chief of staff to Donald Trump, but actually he's much more powerful than that title would let you believe, and who is behind a lot of the immigration policy driving this administration.

23:37after the killing of a National Guard member in Washington last week. He wrote on social media, this is the great lie of mass migration. You're not just importing individuals, you are importing societies. No magic transformation occurs when failed states cross borders. At scale, migrants and their descendants recreate the conditions and terrors of their broken homeland. So, I mean, that's him telling you exactly what he thinks, which is that, you know, it is never going to be safe, essentially, for America to allow people like this to immigrate. Yeah, they talk about undercurrents. I mean, that is the undercurrent to all of this.