Is Donald Trump building a ballroom or a bunker at the White House?

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1:00presidency. He's done it to make way for a grand new ballroom that he's going to name after the sitting president, one Donald J. Trump. And in the meantime, they're making renovations to the presidential bunker, the emergency operations center that is underneath the East Wing. So he's obliterated 120 years of history in one fell swoop. And people are wondering, what's he really up to? Welcome to AmeriCast.

1:31AmeriCast from BBC News. When Donald Trump calls, they say, yes, sir. Right away, sir. Happy to lick your boot, sir. We are the sickest country in the world. Oh, dear. Are you worried that billionaires are going to go hungry? Of course the president supports peaceful protests. What a stupid question. Are you still talking about Jeffrey Epstein?

1:56Hello there. It is Sarah here. I'm actually at home in Washington, D.C. And it is Marianna back in the worldwide headquarters of AmeriCast in London. In a little bit, both Marianna and I are going to be talking to Catherine Sibley. She's a White House historian who specialises in First Ladies. And we want to talk to her about the East Wing of the White House, which, as I'm sure you know, has been rather suddenly demolished by Donald Trump. And that's where the First Ladies offices were traditionally housed. So we're going to find out what went on there and what's been lost. but there's plenty to catch up on on what's been going on in the last week or so.

2:31During that time, Donald Trump has rather suddenly demolished the whole East Wing of the White House and he's done it to build what he calls a great, big, beautiful ballroom. He's been wanting to do this for years and years, long before actually he ever announced that he was going to run for president. He's been saying that the White House needed a ballroom because there isn't anywhere to house a really large state dinner in the White House. If they have more than about 400 guests, they have to put a marquee up in the grounds. And he doesn't think a tent is anywhere to be having these kind of formal events.

3:03You can hear him making the case for why they needed a ballroom just this summer when he was at the White House. You know, when they have big events, you entertain the president of China or the president of any place, and you have big crowds. They've always had to get a tent. And you've probably been to some of them, Bobby. When it rains, it's a disaster. And the tent's 100 yards. that's more than a football field away from the main entrance and people are schlopping down to to the tent it's not a pretty sight yeah and that clip was before Donald Trump flew over here to the UK and attended that very glitzy banquet which was at Windsor Castle which I imagine might might have provided a little bit of inspiration not least because he absolutely loves the royal family.

3:51And because this was in the summer, it was also before we saw the diggers move in and pull the whole thing down, which you can imagine some people, including the historian who we're going to hear from, were not feeling great about. It was pretty shocking. I mean, just firstly, to see a wrecking ball being taken to any bit of the White House gave everybody a start. They obviously knew that people weren't going to like it because hoardings got put up all around the building to try and block the view. But there's lots of office buildings that overlook that bit of the White House. And any federal workers who were there who had a view of it were banned from taking pictures and sharing them on social media.

4:26But that didn't stop pictures getting out and aerial views of it. And as you can imagine, social media has been full of reaction to this. Quite a lot of it pretty critical of Donald Trump's decision here. There are people who obviously are very invested in the White House as this really important sort of historical institution that tells you something about American politics and democracy. So, for example, the National Trust for Historic Preservation wrote this letter to the White House saying the construction, quote, would overwhelm the White House itself and may also permanently disrupt the carefully balanced classical design of the White House with its two smaller and lower east and west wings.

5:05And then Hillary Clinton, famously not a friend of Donald Trump, posted on X, it's not his house, it's your house and he's destroying it. So there's been quite a lot of that kind of narrative. Just in terms of the history and the architecture of it, I mean, I think it is important to say he's not the only president who's made radical changes. Over the years, ever since the White House was built, lots of presidents have done some pretty dramatic things to it. And one of the most famous views of the White House is if you look at the south side of it, where you've got that big semicircular balcony on the first floor, where you often see the first family waving to people the 4th of July and times like that, you see all those famous balcony shots.

5:45It's a bit like the balcony at Buckingham Palace when you see the royal family appearing there. Well, it was President Truman that put that up there halfway through the 20th century. That wasn't there when George Washington was in the White House. So, I mean, it is constantly being changed and modernized and updated. And the East Wing is not as old as the rest of it. I mean, it started in 1902, but the building that's actually been knocked down, that dates to the 40s when Franklin Roosevelt put it up. It's not as though this was born with the Republic and hundreds of years of architectural history have been destroyed with this.

6:21It was a relatively modern building that's being replaced with an even more modern building. Now, a lot of people don't like the look of the huge, big structure that Donald Trump wants to put there, but that's a slightly different argument. And we should probably chat a bit about what it's going to look like because that was kind of Donald Trump's main point. Like, this is going to be this amazing, brilliant place. We've got this picture in front of us, which is kind of like a it's like one of those kind of architecture painting type things that depicts this incredibly golden, very bright, brightly lit hall, banquet hall with lots of tables and chairs and chandeliers hanging from the ceiling and columns.

7:06A little bit Grecian, might we say, Sarah? It's very fancy. There's gilding on the columns and on the ceiling, huge floor-to-ceiling arch windows and a marble floor. And, of course, as many bits of gold furniture as they can squeeze into it as possible. If you imagined in your mind's eye what Donald Trump would think a big, beautiful ballroom would look like, this is almost certainly what you would come up with. Actually, the pictures that the White House put out that we're looking at now were a rendering of a ballroom to hold 650 people, which is what he announced originally. They've now upgraded that to 999 people are going to be able to dine in the structure that gets ever bigger every time they talk about it.

7:49So yeah, it's not dissimilar to what Donald Trump has done to other bits of the White House. I'm sure AmeriCasters have noticed every time you see him doing a little press conference in the Oval Office when he sat in front of the fireplace with another world leader beside him. There are more bits of golden gilding have appeared on the fireplace, on the mantelpiece, on the walls around him. Literally every time you see him, they've crammed some more guilt somehow into that room. And yeah, there's plenty of it going to be attached to this ballroom as well. There was this executive order that Trump issued in August, which was called All in Capitals, as ever, making federal architecture beautiful again.

8:27And in it, he says, President George Washington and Secretary of State Thomas Jefferson consciously modelled the most important buildings in Washington, D.C. on the classical architecture of ancient Athens and Rome, which it's kind of giving ancient Athens and Rome if you've never been to ancient Athens and Rome. And we also know, don't we, Sarah, that Donald Trump thinks that he's, he announced this plan, didn't he, to build an Arc de Trump, like the French Arc de Triomphe, opposite the Lincoln Memorial, to commemorate the country's 250th anniversary next year. Yeah, he showed us little models of it.

9:03when he had a dinner inside the White House to thank all the people who had donated money to pay for the ballroom, because that's not coming out of public funds. Initially, he said he was going to pay for it, but in fact, he's managed to get lots and lots of rich donors to pony up about$300 million to cover the costs of the ballroom. And as he was entertaining them, he announced his next plan, and he had these little scale models of something that does look just like the Arc de Triomphe, but of course would be called after Trump, like a small, medium and very, very large one. And of course, he told them all he fancied the really big one.

9:39Just to be a bit controversial, I don't think this is the worst idea in the world. Now, it depends whether he's going to write Trump on it, you know, like he does on the front of the towers. But there is a spot near the Lincoln Memorial on the bridges you come from Arlington National Cemetery over the bridge into DC. There's an empty spot in a big kind of traffic circle. There's no reason in the world why it shouldn't have a big arc in it. And, you know, it is the 250th anniversary of the founding of the United States next year. It's exactly the sort of thing that other presidents would do. And it wouldn't be considered so wildly controversial.

10:14But because he's made it all about himself and because it's going to be the arc to Trump, that's why, you know, some people are up in arms about it. I've felt myself being quite conscious all through this argument about the arc and about the remaking of the White House to remind everybody that just because Donald Trump is doing it and you might not be a fan of Donald Trump, that doesn't mean it's an outrageous thing to do. He can do perfectly sensible things. And some people maybe can't see that because they're just so outraged by the fact that the name Trump is attached to it. I think what's worth saying, though, Sarah, as well, to your point about there are some people who just really don't like Donald Trump.

10:53And so whatever he does, they will find fault with it. But not just that, they will find conspiracy with it. And I think that gets us into quite an interesting territory. One of the questions we've had is from Jenny, who said to us, could the people giving donations towards the ballroom really be buying their places in the bunker being built below the ballroom? Thank you. Now, this idea of the bunker is a conspiracy theory that's gone really, really viral on social media, suggesting that actually the reason for rebuilding the ballroom is because there's going to be this kind of nuclear bunker and it's an end of days type thing.

11:27And Donald Trump wants to build that. That's actually why he's doing this. There's not evidence to to support that idea. But people are drawing on. Well, although. Yeah. Well, as you often say, there's often a thread of truth in some of these things. So there is a fortified underground bunker underneath the East Wing, the Presidential Emergency Operations Centre. In fact, that's one of the reasons why the East Wing was there at all. That was one of the things that was put in first over 100 years ago. It has been upgraded occasionally. It was used after the 9-11 attacks, for instance. That's where the vice president was taken.

12:06And there is reason to believe that it's being upgraded. And why not, especially if you're doing this construction anyway, it is the sort of thing that you would need to keep upgraded. You can see why people then suddenly might start to think that there's something suspicious in that. And of course, I hadn't heard before, but it's a neat idea from Jenny that the reason you would give to the ballroom is, in fact, to buy your place in the bunker. But I mean, there's no way that people are giving the tens of millions of dollars that they are for the construction of the ballroom without expecting some kind of quid pro quo.

12:40And there are people, I think, perfectly legitimately more concerned about the lack of transparency around what these donors are getting in return than they maybe are about the construction of the ballroom in the first place. after a bit of an outcry. The White House have actually published now the list of everybody who gave money, but they haven't told us, you know, what they were expecting in return, what they might be getting in return. And these are big businesses, many of them in the tech sector, who could expect favours or maybe they're trying to avoid punitive punishments from the Trump administration.

13:12But, you know, it is not for charitable reasons that they're paying for this ballroom. You mentioned the tech companies, Sarah. So people like Apple, Amazon, Meta, which owns Instagram and Facebook, Google, Microsoft, they are just a few of the big tech companies that are happy to contribute to the project as per this list of donors. And I have spent a long time on this podcast and many other podcasts banging on about the impact of the social media companies and how they almost function. Some of these companies matter, for example, like governments now. And so you can see how it is hugely beneficial to them to make sure that they are staying in Donald Trump's good books, not least because he's the person who can make decisions about regulation and other things.

13:56He could also decide to take legal action against them. And we've seen various controversies, particularly after the January the 6th capital riots, where, you know, he was not so fond of the social media companies. Now he is much fonder of them. Yeah. And on that topic, we've got this voice note from Ray, who says he lives in the original Washington. So presumably that's in the northeast of England. I have a question about the redevelopment of the White House. President Trump has said that he's going to be paying for this. but he's actively working all of his very wealthy friends for contributions.

14:24The estimated cost was$300 million. I would like to know, are these contributions auditable? It's not inconceivable that more than$300 million could be raised. Where would this money go? And how would we know? Thank you. I love your work. Yes, how would we know? Extremely good question because there are very, very few details about how much money has been given by these people, and I'm pretty sure it's not auditable. Donald Trump has said that if the costs overrun, he'll make up the difference himself, but I'm sure he would find a way to get it from somebody. If there's money left over, he has said that that's going to go towards the Arc de Trump that we were just talking about before, the ceremonial arch he wants to put up opposite the Lincoln Memorial.

15:09And of course, what another wonderful fundraising opportunity for him to get his friends back into the White House and for them to write more huge checks and to leave us wondering once again what it is that they're getting in return. Yeah, and from everything we've just been chatting about, Sarah, you can see why this has become such a focal point for discussion because in lots of ways it feels symptomatic of both things people really don't like about Donald Trump's presidency this time around and things people do like about it, that kind of need to assert and be proud of the American identity and to be a bit glitz and a bit glam and a bit sort of making everything great again kind of thing, which has appealed to a lot of Americans and that kind of slightly bullshit approach that he takes.

15:54And then the flip side of that being, oh, hang on a second, are we comfortable with what some people would perceive as a lack of respect for history and tradition and how politicians go about things? And one of the things that a lot of people loved about Donald Trump when they were voting him in to be president this time last year was that he's not like a traditional politician in that sense. It feels like he doesn't always respect the rules and they like that about him. But the not respecting the rules and traditions is something that quite a lot of people also find quite difficult to deal with.

16:31So we're lucky now that we've got a guest who can tell us all about what is being lost in the East Wing. Dr Catherine Sibley is a professor of history and director of American studies at St. Joseph's University in Philadelphia. She's also a historian with a specialism in First Ladies. She's written a couple of books about that and currently is writing one about Michelle Obama. Catherine, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you for having me. So the East Wing has historically been linked with First Ladies, of course, and that's why we want to talk to you about it. It tends to be where the First Lady has her offices.

17:03And it may be one reason why perhaps not as many people are as outraged about the demolition of it as they would be if it was the West Wing. that was being destroyed. Is it of equal merit and importance? Oh, yes, absolutely. You know, a lot of people are actually quite outraged. I don't know if you've seen the polls. It's something I read this morning about two thirds of Americans polled are pretty upset because they see this as an attack on the White House itself, which it really is. The East Wing is an integral part of the White House. For instance, well, I can just tell you, It's been around for a long time.

17:38The first sort of gist of it, 1902, not Franklin Roosevelt, but his cousin, Teddy or Theodore, made a plaza there. And then during World War II, and there was sort of a walkway to the White House at that point, during World War II, Franklin Roosevelt wanted to build a bunker for the war. And a lot of people thought that was sort of controversial, but it was important. And so what he did was he put the East Wing over it. And it's a beautiful building. I've been there myself. And the East Wing, of course, became with Eleanor in office then and then successive First Ladies as really the home of their staffs.

18:14So it wasn't until later that the First Lady herself moved in there. And we can talk more about that. But it has been indelibly linked with the First Ladies really since World War II and the First Lady herself, not just her staff, since the 1970s. So I think it is a key piece. And it's really very, very devastating to me and many First Lady scholars that this building has been eradicated because it was the site of much great work. And we really want to get into the work that so many First Ladies did there and why it was particularly important. But just in terms of the East Wing's architectural or historical value, I have to be honest, I think quite a lot of Brits, many of whom listen to this podcast, are a little bit, I mean, you might think it's snobby about post-Second World War buildings.

19:03Anything put up since 1945, we don't tend to consider to be a significant historical national monument that we would be heartbroken if it was to be knocked down. It's not as though it was the residence of the White House, which has been there for a couple of hundred years. Just in terms of the architecture, has very much been lost? Oh, yes. Actually, it was built technically before 1945. It was built in 1942. And also, it was a beautiful building and remains or remained. So a classic building, really designed beautifully. I mean, I've been inside it. I'll tell you a little bit about that. I went in there.

19:42I've been in there a couple times. Most recently was in 2018, when our current president was in his first term. And it was an event called the Presidential Site Summit. And a number of us who were interested in presidents and first ladies, people who work in museums, people who work, for instance, at first lady homes or president's homes, we were all there. And it was a really exciting moment that we got music and lots of lovely cocktails and this and that. But mostly we saw the East Wing. That was always and has always been the entry point, at least since it's been built, for the public to come into the White House.

20:16So it's a very, very gracious or was a very gracious building. What I noticed when we came in was this was already a year into the first Trump administration, and there were many pictures on the wall of the Obamas that were still up. So I think that shows how this house, this, well, I think of it as a house, but of course, it's the annex to the White House. But this East Wing was the home of first ladies. And even then the current first lady, still now the current first lady, did not just take away the old pictures. She had some of her own, of course, Melania Trump did. But there was this sense of continuity, right?

20:51For all the First Ladies, this had been where they had worked really, you know, officially as their offices since the time of Rosalind Carter. But even earlier, their staffs, you know, going back to Eleanor Roosevelt. So it's a very gracious building. It's a beautiful building. And I assure your audience that they would have loved to have visited. And I'm sure many of them did. This was the public entry point. And so it was a beautiful, beautiful sight to kind of enter and come into the White House. I was reading a little bit before we chatted to you about the different ways that First Ladies have used the East Wing.

21:24And I was reminded of, I'm sure you've probably seen those clips of where people do like, welcome to my home for Vogue or for other publications, like come inside. It feels like Jackie Kennedy was perhaps the original version of that, wasn't she? Because she invited people into the White House for this TV show. We've actually got a clip that we can play where she's explaining how important the preservation of history was for the White House. Mrs. Kennedy, every first lady and every administration since President Madison's time has made changes, greater or smaller, in the White House. Before we look at any of the changes you've made, what's your basic plan?

22:03Well, I really don't have one because I think this house will always grow and should. It just seemed to me such a shame when we came here to find hardly anything of the past in the house, hardly anything before 1902. I know when we went to Columbia, the presidential palace there has all the history of that country in it, where Simon Bolivar was, every piece of furniture in it has some link with the past. I thought the White House should be like that. What do you make of that, Catherine? It's beautiful. You know, just hearing her lovely voice, right? And in fact, she set up the White House Historical Association, which you may be familiar with.

22:43And they have been absolutely fantastic about saving pictures and artifacts from this building so that even though it's demolished now, we will not lose what it looked like. And at some point, it will be recreated, I have no doubt, in some form, hopefully in not too long. And what I think is really interesting about her is by setting up the White House Historical Association, by creating a booklet for people who came to visit, by also working as well to make the White House a museum, she set the stage for all successive first ladies, including Melania Trump, who continued to basically maintain, keep up the decor, freshened it up, replenished.

23:21We have people like Pat Nixon, who I think many people don't recognize, did quite a lot, bringing in this sort of Americana theme to the White House during the time of the Vietnam War. And First Ladies have been incredibly interested in preserving and enhancing the inside of the White House. And I think Jacqueline Kennedy's really, you know, kind of the start of that. And now, you know, 65 years later or so, since she made that historical association happen, and then shortly after her video, we have the legacy of that with us. And this is why this is So heartbreaking what's happened. And if we fast forward to the current first lady, Melania Trump, Sarah, we get loads of questions, don't we, about Melania and what's going on and what her role sort of is really in this administration.

24:04We had this voice note from Jules, for example. This was one of the questions. Hi, I have a question about Melania. You recently did a revisit to Under the Radar. And I think, has she slipped under the radar? don't really hear about her anymore, although there was a lot of chatter in her first term. Does she still live at the White House? Is she responsible for any projects? In fact, what does she actually do? Thanks. Well, Jules, that is a question that a lot of people in Washington ask themselves. We very occasionally see Melania either in the White House or accompanying Donald Trump somewhere, but not often at all.

24:45There's no official record of how many nights she spends there and how often she's in New York or in Mar-a-Lago in Florida instead. But she has one of the lowest profiles of any recent first lady. And we see even less of her than we did during Donald Trump's first term. It's quite unusual, Catherine, isn't it, for her to be so far under the radar, as Jules put it. Yes, you're absolutely right. And your caller is right as well. We have not seen much of her. I don't live in Washington, but my understanding is that she's been there maybe a total of about two weeks over the course of this nine months or so that they've been in the White House this year.