Is Trump giving the FIFA World Cup a MAGA makeover?

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0:30business needs in one place, saving you time, headaches, and serious money. Stop paying for missing pieces. Go to odoo.com. That's O-D-O-O dot com to learn more. With the new Schwab Teen Investor Account, teens can gain hands-on investing experience and build positive money habits. It's an account co-owned by you and your teen, so you can monitor and engage with the account while your teen learns how to invest and manage money. Learn more at schwab.com. For years now, Donald Trump has been developing a pretty cosy friendship with Gianni Infantino. He is the president of FIFA, and that's football's governing world body.

1:09And the two of them have got pretty matey. Ever since in 2018, America won the bid to co-host the 2026 World Cup. And it's going to be very special. I look forward to it. So let's see, 2026. I won't be here. I won't be here. Maybe they'll extend the 10 because I know they'd love to see something. Because if they don't extend, the media is going to be very boring. It's going to be very boring. They'll all be out of business, I guess. Now, at the time, Donald Trump was very happy about that, but thought he would not be in office to see it happen. Well, of course, as it transpired, he lost the election in 2020, came back in 2024, and he will be sitting pretty in the White House as America co-hosts this World Cup next summer.

1:52Yet, this is Donald Trump, so it's always got political. There are questions about whether FIFA is losing its political neutrality, whether Donald Trump is trying to use this to its advantage. Basically, can he magify the World Cup? That's what we're asking today. Welcome to AmeriCast. AmeriCast. AmeriCast from BBC News. When Donald Trump calls, they say, yes, sir. Right away, sir. Happy to lick your boot, sir. We are the sickest country in the world. Oh, dear. Are you worried that billionaires are going to go hungry? Of course the president supports peaceful protests. What a stupid question. Are you still talking about Jeffrey Epstein?

2:37Anthony Zurcher:Hello, it's Sarah here in the BBC's Washington Bureau. And it's Anthony, right next to Sarah here in Washington, D.C. It's very fortunate, I think, given this topic, that we are shortly going to be joined in the podcast by Henry Bushnell, who is a senior soccer writer at The Athletic and who's going to talk to us about the trumpification of the FIFA World Cup, which really starts on Friday, I guess. It starts on Friday. Today is Thursday. So people are just starting to arrive to town for the big event tomorrow at the Kennedy Center here in Washington, D.C., where we will know the countries, how they are allotted to the various pools.

3:11Anthony Zurcher:And so I have some idea of what their chances are to win the tournament. But this is a politics podcast, so we're going to be talking about the political angle of this, because I think there really is a political angle to this event. One, it's here in Washington, D.C., and two, Donald Trump is front and center through all of it. Yeah, and at the draw on Friday, as you say, at the Kennedy Center, very prestigious Washington location, who I think have given FIFA a cut-price deal on it. But then, of course, isn't Donald Trump the chairman of the Kennedy Center now? So he could probably make those decisions.

3:43And he will be lapping it up, won't he?

3:46Anthony Zurcher:I think he will be. He loves the spotlight. Obviously, this is the global stage. So this is an opportunity for him to really call attention to himself, call attention to the Kennedy Center, which, as you mentioned, Trump and his associates have taken control pretty dramatically over the course of the past 10 months or so. and then to be able to kick ahead to what I think he thinks will be a big international spectacle for the World Cup in summer. And apparently the Village People are going to be there as well. Last seen at the inauguration, weren't they? Donald Trump's favorite 80s band playing the MAGA anthem, YMCA.

4:25Anthony Zurcher:YMCA, yeah. You know, they're pulling out all the stops. No Lee Greenwood I haven't seen yet, the God Bless the USA song, but I'm holding out hope that he makes an appearance too. And there are actually going to be other world leaders there. The United States isn't the sole host of this World Cup. Canada and Mexico are as well. So Canadian Prime Minister Mark Carney will be there. Mexico President Claudia Scheinbaum will be there. But clearly they're taking a backseat to the Donald Trump spectacle. FIFA have invented this new thing, a FIFA Peace Prize that's going to be awarded as well. So do you think it will be the Canadian or the Mexican leaders that get it?

5:04Anthony Zurcher:That would be a shock. I actually would love to be in the room and see the expression on Donald Trump's face if they gave it to Mark Carney. But no, I think it's fairly transparent what they're doing here. There was a lot of angst and anger in the White House and particularly from Donald Trump when Donald Trump did not win the Nobel Peace Prize just a number of weeks ago. They sharply criticized the Nobel Committee for being too politicized. And then all of a sudden, the FIFA organization and its head decided to come up with this FIFA Peace Prize. And they haven't announced who the winner is going to be.

5:41Anthony Zurcher:But I think we all have a pretty sneaking suspicion that the person celebrated for being such a peacemaker is also going to be the person who is standing there on stage presiding over all of this. And of course, when the US originally secured its place as being a co-host, along with Mexico and Canada, of this year's World Cup, that was when Donald Trump was in his first time. And it was quite a prize in itself to get to be the host. There was a seminal moment in 2018 when the FIFA president made his first trip to the White House and Gianni Infantino presented the US president with a Trump 26 FIFA football shirt and then he had one final gift.

6:18One more thing that could be useful for you. You know, in soccer, we have referees, right? And they have cards. Yellow cards and red cards. Yellow card is a warning. Right. And when you want to kick out someone, you should win a red card. Like this. That's true, that's true.

6:41Anthony Zurcher:So a red card warning for the gathered media there. Donald Trump, a little more lighthearted dig at the media compared to some of the stuff we've heard recently. But they did show the kind of warm relationship between Gianni Infantino and Trump, a relationship that has been built on since then. If you remember back in 2020 at Davos at a dinner of CEOs there, this was right after Donald Trump had been impeached for the first time. Infantino took the stage and lavished the embattled president with praise. President Trump is definitely a sportsman. I am lucky enough in my life to come across some of the most talented athletes in soccer.

7:28And President Trump is made of the same sort of fiber. He's a competitor. He wants to compete. He wants to win. He wants to show who is the best. He says, actually, what many think. But more importantly, he does than what he says. For the last few years, I think Gianni Infantino has been conducting a masterclass in how to court Donald Trump. So that kind of praise, and also back in 2020, when people were not flattering Donald Trump all the time, will have endeared him to him. But more recently, he keeps bringing golden gifts to the Oval Office. And we know there's nothing Donald Trump likes more than a little bit more glitter around the office.

8:10And so he now has a replica of the FIFA World Cup that will be presented later this summer. And he's got a huge replica of the FIFA Club World Cup that he handed over last year. He's got his own copy of it in there. And we know how much he loves just gilding the Oval Office more and more and more. And there's nothing quite like a golden gift to get him on site, is there?

8:29Anthony Zurcher:Right. And the jersey and I think a soccer ball I think I've seen tossed around. And clearly, this is the playbook, and it's a playbook that is being delivered, as you mentioned, very effectively and has won Donald Trump over. Let's be honest, I don't think Donald Trump was a big soccer fan, but clearly he likes the idea of this kind of global pageantry and being connected with it. He also likes the idea of having more political power that he can wield here in the United States. And one of the ways he has done that is by threatening some of the cities that have been announced long ago now announced to host World Cup games, saying that if they don't shape up, these are Democrat controlled cities, they don't shape up if they don't do what he says, they could lose the right to host the games.

9:15Anthony Zurcher:Here he is talking about that last month. If we think there's gonna be a sign of any trouble, I would ask Johnny to move that to a different city. We have a lot of cities that would love to have it number one, and we'll do it very safely. So if we think there's a problem in Seattle where you have a very, very liberal slash communist mayor, I would say, you know, it's certainly beyond just liberal. I watched her over the weekend. Well, that's another beauty we got there. But if we think there's going to be a problem, we'll... Johnny, can I say we will move? I don't think you're going to have this problem, but we're going to move the event to someplace where it's going to be appreciated and safe.

9:53He can't really move the venues at this short notice, I wouldn't imagine.

9:58Anthony Zurcher:There's so much infrastructure built up. I mean, the venues have been specifically chosen for their hotel capacity, for the size of the city, for their public transit, for the quality of their stadiums. So it would be pretty dramatic. And correct me if I'm wrong, but tomorrow in the drawing, we'll find out where some of these teams are playing as well. So I think people are going to start snapping up tickets for the cities that their teams will end up in. Yeah, they'll start booking airfares and hotel rooms and all sorts of things. If you were to suddenly tell them, yo, it's not happening in Philadelphia, Actually, after all, it's going to be in Denver instead.

10:30Anthony Zurcher:You can't just hop in a car and drive to Denver. Yeah, America is a very big country. And there are two countries. I mean, it's not just the US, it's Canada and Mexico as well. There is a potential, though, isn't there, for some politics around immigration with this, because the administration has not ruled out the idea of immigration raids at games. And you could imagine, for instance, a huge expat community turning up to watch a South American country playing. And who knows what might happen if ICE think, oh, well, this is an opportunity to find some undocumented migrants. Yeah, Haiti has made the World Cup.

11:03Anthony Zurcher:I assume they will be playing in the United States. I guess they could play in Mexico or Canada and avoid a little bit of this. But there's a good chance they could end up in the United States. And Donald Trump has in the past targeted Haitian immigrants. ICE has focused on these communities that are living here in the United States. And it could be a kind of a rallying point for those immigrant communities. And then you could see some sort of a crackdown if they really want to do this. I'll be curious to see how much of that there is, because I don't think Donald Trump would want something to to mar this big event.

11:34Anthony Zurcher:But it is a concern. And even if it doesn't materialize, if you're coming here from another country or you're a member of an immigrant community here in the United States, How comfortable would you feel associating with these games, showing up with like-minded compatriots in places where you're all together? Because that has in the past been where ICE and immigration enforcement has been targeting people. Yeah, and of course, that's why Bad Bunny won't play any concerts in the United States, because he says he's worried that ICE would turn up and try and conduct raids amongst his fans if he was performing here.

12:07There's another issue as well, isn't there, that's come up, because after the shooting last week of a National Guard soldier here in Washington near the White House, one of the ways the administration has responded is by saying they're going to pretty much pause all visas from 19 particular countries, two of which have qualified for the World Cup, Haiti, as you mentioned, and Iran. And we don't know, do we, what that's going to mean for any of their fans turning up, or potentially the team or anybody associated with that.

12:38Anthony Zurcher:Yeah, these are the kind of political concerns that are injecting into what should be otherwise a sport celebration. So I think they're going to have to find a way of working through that. I think they'll probably find a way of getting the teams here. But yeah, if you're a fan from Iran, one, would you want to come here given the climate, the political climate? But two, could you even pull it off? And how easy would it be to travel between, say, Mexico and the US If you have games there or Canada and the US, if your game's there and then you make the knockout round and are playing somewhere else.

13:10Anthony Zurcher:I mean, it's the logistics of one, a kind of a multinational tournament, but a multinational tournament where one of the countries has very clear political acts to grind against some of the participating nations. I think that is going to be something that we have to watch and something that could blow up in everyone's face. But as you said earlier, and I'm sure you're right, Trump ultimately wants this to be a success. and we've seen him before haven't we turning up at huge sporting events very visibly there it's a way of sort of i think enmeshing himself into the nation's culture as well as its politics being seen to participate in these things and i'm sure he'll be front and center at some of the world cup games as well do you think he'll do you think he'll expect to be able to hand over the trophy to the winners i'm sure he would love to do that i wouldn't be surprised if he was was there in the middle of the pitch as you say uh at the end of the championship game handing out the trophy When you look at these big sporting events, and the World Cup is one of them, but the Olympics is another one, it is in some nations, in some authoritarian nations, I would say a chance to really turn the patriotism up to 11, to really boost this kind of idea of nationalism.

14:15Anthony Zurcher:You remember the ones in China, the opening ceremonies for the Olympics in China, where it's this massive thing with all the drummers and all this kind of celebration of Chinese culture. Same with the Russian World Cup in 2018. And obviously, you mean the London 2012 Olympics as well, and the astonishing celebration of British culture at the opening ceremony there. Absolutely. The National Health Service and the coal factories coming up. Actually, I really enjoy that. And the Queen jumping out of an airplane. These are all celebrations of British culture. But it is a chance for, you know, a generous view would be good-spirited patriotism.

14:51Anthony Zurcher:A more cynical view would be kind of jingoistic celebration of a country's nationalism and culture. Well, Anthony, that leads us very neatly into introducing our guest, whom you and I spoke to yesterday, in fact, the senior soccer writer at The Athletic, Henry Bushnell. And I started our chat by asking him why he thinks President Trump is so enamored with the World Cup. Because he's a showman and he understands that it's a massive event. I think it boils down to that. And you'll notice that he's not associating himself with any one specific team, not even the U.S. team, at least not yet. He's associating himself with the event and the glitz and the glamour of it and the massive stage that he knows is coming.

15:34and that Gianni Infantino, the FIFA president, is giving him and that he is going to, you know, use in whatever way he wants to use it to push his agenda, to, you know, just paint himself in a in a positive light. That's why he is so enamored with this. He likes sports for the for the show.

15:52Anthony Zurcher:Yeah. Donald Trump is an American football guy. He owned USFL football team in the 1980s. But here is going full in on soccer. And he seems to have developed a special relationship with Infantino. Why do you think they have that seemingly close connection? Yeah, it's very interesting. I think part of it is by necessity that the World Cup has brought them together and that FIFA needs the national government of any World Cup host country for a variety of reasons. But then I think it has also developed into somewhat of a friendship. And they just like they get along. And a lot of people I've spoken with over the years say that they share, you know, some qualities like some in I reported out a piece on Infantino earlier this year.

16:40And people have described him as Trumpian in a lot of ways, just in the way that and like the way he runs FIFA is very like I wouldn't say authoritarian, but it is autocratic in a ways. And like he is making a lot of the decisions. Everything filters up to to him. And he is a very good, good politician. And he gets things done. That relationship seems to go beyond just discussing what might happen with the World Cup and the visits that we've seen from Infantino making to Donald Trump in the Oval Office. It pops up all over the world at international conventions. He was even in Egypt when the Gaza peace deal was being signed and being photographed alongside all the other world leaders there.

17:21I mean, is he involved in world politics as well as football? It sure seems like he wants to be, despite his repeated assurances that football and politics should be separate. It seems like maybe after he's done with FIFA, that could be his next thing. Who knows? But in addition to being at the Gaza Summit, earlier this year, he was late to the FIFA Congress because he was with Trump in the Middle East. So like, I don't know if it is that he has bigger ambitions or that he thinks it is important for the football world, the soccer world to be represented at these stages to, you know, both to cement the sport as the world sport or to use it to accomplish bigger things beyond sport.

18:07But he's certainly like he more so than any previous soccer leader is involving himself in these political things. Right.

18:16Anthony Zurcher:But there are people who point to FIFA in particular as a corrupt organization, that there's a history of bribery, there's a history of lining their own pockets, and that this isn't some sort of a model international organization that's upholding all the great standards in this world, that this is kind of a dirty organization. And the same accusations we see leveled at Trump are being leveled at FIFA as well. Absolutely. And FIFA would argue that that was the previous regime and they have under Infantino, they have moved away from the bribery. And to be fair to them, they have put in some controls that have probably not necessarily totally eradicated, but stamped out a decent amount of the blatant, what we would actually call bribery, like cash for TV rights under the table, things like that.

19:09But the way he runs the organization, like the way somebody described it to me earlier this year was legal bribery. Like it's I will give you one thing so that you do this. It's just kind of like a quid pro quo type of thing. None of this is legal. And in fact, like a lot of people within the soccer world like Infantino and like the way he's running it because he's making them so much money. Why will this be a particularly lucrative World Cup? Yeah, but ticket prices are higher than normal, aren't they? Which has already been causing something of a fuss among football fans. But are there other reasons why there's more money involved in this one?

19:44Well, it's bigger than ever. It's 48 teams instead of 32. It's 104 games instead of 64. It's being played at these massive American NFL stadiums. Still, the 1994 World Cup, which was held at American NFL stadiums, is the most attended World Cup ever, even though it was only 24 teams. this is going to be twice that basically and probably more than more than twice that in terms of attendance they're selling those tickets for way higher prices than they ever than they ever have it's also going to be really expensive to attend and part of that is in fifa's control with the ticket prices and you know selling parking passes alone for 75 or over 100 dollars and all these other ways that they're making fans pay for it but it's also just expensive to travel to America in general.

20:34Anthony Zurcher:And I remember that 94 World Cup. I was here in D.C. and actually bought tickets, you know, maybe a week ahead of time to go see a knockout round game between Spain and Switzerland here in D.C. I remember just four years before that in 1990, having to like watch Spanish language television to see the World Cup televised here in the United States. So definitely it has become dramatically bigger here in the U.S., although I was struck by the fact that there are no games here in D.C. There won't be any games here in D.C. next year. What we do have in D.C. is this big World Cup pool draw, which I hear you're going to be at on Friday at the Kennedy Center with Donald Trump and Impatino and all the big FIFA celebrities and sports stars are going to be there.

21:22Anthony Zurcher:Why is that being held at the Kennedy Center when we don't have a game to go to next year? Yeah, it's not necessarily connected to whether there's a game or not. The plan for a while was actually to have it in Las Vegas, where there are also not games, but they held the draw there back in 1993, ahead of the 1994 World Cup. And that's where a lot of people seem to want it to go and think it made sense because it's a big show, right? But then the Trumpet, you know, so the history of the Kennedy Center, which your listeners are probably more aware of than maybe the sports audience, but, you know, Trump essentially took it over earlier this year, and he recommended it.

21:59At least we've been told that he recommended it to FIFA as the site and FIFA wanted him involved or maybe specifically Gianni Infantino wanted him involved. So again, it's all about Trump. It's not going to be all about Trump. There are still a lot of people who are going to be focused on the picking of teams, but we are expecting him. We don't know for sure, but we are expecting him to be very prominently involved on Friday. And he can see other political opportunity here as well. And he's been threatening recently to remove games from Democrat-run cities that he doesn't like. Because, I mean, I presume that cities and local businesses stand to make a huge amount of money out of this, as well as FIFA.

22:39If you thought it was difficult to get a hotel room when Taylor Swift was playing, just try and do it when it's the World Cup semifinal or something. But can Donald Trump actually do that? Can he decide that these games shouldn't be played in cities where he doesn't get on with the mayor or the governor? No, it's not up to him. That said, he does plenty of things that he's, he and his administration do plenty of things that technically they aren't allowed to do. But that said, there's no chance at this point that you could pick a new city to take games to. There's an outside chance that if, let's say, some city actually isn't safe, that you could take the six or seven games that are in that city and spread them around to some of the other cities that are already planning to host games.

23:22but still it's very late in the game for that like so much planning goes into this tickets have already been sold to these games um there's there's so much or so many moving parts around them that it's both like not technically not allowed and not in its power and also just unfeasible at this point there are some worries aren't there about people from abroad buying tickets possibly from african countries maybe other countries that donald trump doesn't have on his favorites list, whether or not they will get visas to come in as a tourist to watch these games, even if they've already bought a ticket.