MAGA’s “righteous fury” at Charlie Kirk’s memorial

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0:55We feast! An offer you can feast on. Sell your car today on Carvana. Pick up fees, mail by. We look back today on what was unquestionably a huge event in the United States. It was Sunday's memorial service for Charlie Kirk. A memorial service, yes. A chance to say goodbye, yes. But goodness, for so many Americans, including those closely aligned with the White House, it felt like something else, a chance for a revival. The day that Charlie died, the angels wept, but those tears had been turned into fire in our hearts. And that fire burns with a righteous fury that our enemies cannot comprehend or understand.

1:52You thought you could kill Charlie Kirk? You have made him immortal. You have immortalised Charlie Kirk. And now millions will carry on his legacy. So a question. Has Charlie Kirk's assassination given a divine cause, as it were, for the right to unite around to attack the left? Welcome to AmeriCast.

2:17Anthony Zurcher:AmeriCast. AmeriCast from BBC News. When Donald Trump calls, they say, Yes, sir. Right away, sir. Happy to lick your boot, sir. We are the sickest country in the world. Oh, dear. Are you worried that billionaires are going to go hungry? Of course the president supports peaceful protests. What a stupid question. Are you still talking about Jeffrey Epstein?

2:44Hello, it's Justin in the worldwide headquarters of AmeriCast in London, England.

2:48Anthony Zurcher:And it's Anthony back here in Washington, D.C. And Anthony, let's kick off with just a word or two about what actually happened on Sunday, because my goodness, this was a major occasion. We knew it would be, didn't we? I mean, the fact that Donald Trump was going and all manner of people were going. But it lived up to its billing in the sense of the hugeness of the event. And in a sense, I suppose, also of the momentousness of it. And we'll get to that in a second. But let's start with the hugeness, just the memorial thing itself, the memorial service itself, held in this absolutely giant, giant stadium.

3:24Anthony Zurcher:Yeah, an American football stadium. About 100 ,000 people packed that stadium. People apparently camped out overnight, tens of thousands of them, to get good seats here. And then there were, according to reports, millions more watching online. It was an event, an event that unified, electrified this young conservative movement that Turning Points was focused on trying to organize and turn out in elections. And so it had a feeling not just of being a memorial service, but of being a political rally as well, as you mentioned, with all of these prominent politicians showing up. And people queuing overnight to get in.

4:06This was a big kind of seismic event and they wanted it to be a seismic event. And there was huge security wasn't there. And, you know, the bulletproof glass for the speakers and all the rest of it. This was a giant, giant event and an event that obviously brought together. This is what really and we'll get to what his widow, Erica, said in a second, but just right across the kind of the political right, you needed to be there. Yeah.

4:41Anthony Zurcher:You had Donald Trump, of course. You had J.D. Vance, the vice president. You had Marco Rubio, Secretary of State. Stephen Miller, who we've talked about before, who is a senior advisor to Donald Trump. Susie Wiles, who is the chief of staff of the White House. RFK Jr. Even Elon Musk was there. Elon Musk was sitting next to Donald Trump. So, I mean, if this is a unifying kind of event, we have Elon Musk and Trump having some sort of a rapprochement here amongst the crowd of 100 ,000, as you mentioned. It was obviously a huge event for the conservative movement, a huge event also, I think, for evangelical Christianity in this country because of the emphasis that Kirk had during his life on reawakening Christian religiosity in public life.

5:34Anthony Zurcher:I had the feel of one of those Ted House revivals of Billy Graham back in the 40s and 50s, or even the Great Awakenings in American history in the 19th century. It had a feeling of religious fervor celebrating Kirk, but also elevating him as a kind of a martyr for the cause. Yeah. And that brings us very neatly to the tone of the whole thing being set by his widow, by Erica. and she's there on her own on the stage as you say 100 ,000 people there millions more watching on television the president there everyone there from the right she spoke I thought not only movingly but firmly about what she believed and in a sense this was the moment that you could say was the centerpiece.

6:29Let's listen. My husband, Charlie, he wanted to save young men just like the one who took his life. Thank you.

7:00That young man. That young man. On the cross, our Savior said,

7:13Father, forgive them, for they not know what they do. That man. That young man.

7:28I forgive him.

7:36And Anthony, at that moment, I was looking around at the audience and there were people genuinely in tears. It was enormously moving, wasn't it? Whatever you think, we'll get to what Donald Trump said and we'll get to the politics of it in a second. but just as the sight of her and the knowledge that she has these two young children and that he was only 31 and the weight of it all on her shoulders I thought was enormously effective. I forgive him because it was what Christ did and is what Charlie would do. The answer to hate is not hate. The answer we know from the gospel is love and always love.

8:26Love for our enemies and love for those who persecute us.

8:34Anthony Zurcher:Yeah, you know, there's the saying, you know, live your faith. And to stand up there in that moment and to forgive the killer of her husband. I mean, obviously, it was an incredibly, incredibly powerful moment. And she was a kind of a living example of what her religion teaches her. And I think that was obviously very moving for the crowd. And I think it is an interesting, a unique message to send to the American public, one of forgiveness, forgiveness of your enemies, forgiveness even of people who did grievous harm to those you love. It's not the kind of message you hear very often in American politics and not even the kind of message you heard, as you mentioned, within just a few minutes after she finished speaking.

9:21Yeah. Let's listen to what Donald Trump said, because, I mean, he was open about it, wasn't he? Here we go. He did not hate his opponents. He wanted the best for them. That's where I disagreed with Charlie. I hate my opponent and I don't want the best for them. I'm sorry. I am sorry, Erica. But now Erica can talk to me and the whole group, and maybe they can convince me that that's not right, but I can't stand my opponent.

9:52Charlie's angry. Looking down, he's angry at me now. What do you make of that, Anthony?

9:58Anthony Zurcher:I mean, on one hand, he's doing it kind of as a joke, right? I mean, the crowd's laughing and he's kind of chuckling, saying that's like, ah, you know, you may forgive them, but I'm not going to. On the other hand, when you take it in the context of everything Donald Trump has been doing over the past nine months, Everything in particular that he has said over the past few days, talking about prosecuting his enemies, firing a prosecutor in Virginia for not bringing charges against New York Attorney General Letitia James, replacing that person with one of his defense attorneys. I mean, it takes a different kind of a tone, different kind of a feeling when you view that in context.

10:36Anthony Zurcher:He may be chuckling, but the reality of his actions are not one of forgiveness. It's the kind of retribution. I am your I am your retribution that he said on the campaign trail last year that I think he firmly believes, even if even if he thinks, you know, Charlie Kirk up in heaven is not agreeing with him and not approving of what he's saying. The thing that went through my mind listening to it, and in a sense, this is the only thing on which I'm better qualified to talk about this than you, because I am an outsider to it. But bear with me for a second. I think a lot of people who don't live in the United States tend to think of American evangelism as being something that's sort of, if not essentially fake, then often faked.

11:17And they think of all the crazy preachers. They think of the people who, you know, who've been stealing the money from the congregation. or fulminate about homosexuality, and then it turns out actually have been kind of experimenting with it themselves. And, you know, I mean, there are some famous names there and there are some less famous names there. And there's a sort of sense outside the United States that doesn't always take this form of religion seriously. And the thing I learned when I was based among you, Anthony, for a decade or so, was that actually a lot of evangelical Christians genuinely believe the things they say and actually are motivated in their lives to live the way that they say they want to live.

12:05It's not all fakery. And I think from my time, you know, George W. Bush and the outreach to combat HIV in Africa during his time there, which was very much kind of something that evangelical Christians were behind, felt they should be behind and actually had a real kind of sense of purpose. And I don't actually think would have happened to the extent that it happened, given generally speaking on the right people aren't very keen to spend money on aid, etc. I don't think it would have happened absent that kind of religious drive. And I'm right, aren't I? There is a sense that you're ill-advised if you don't take this stuff seriously.

12:43Anthony Zurcher:Absolutely. I mean, I think many Americans have very deeply held religious beliefs, And they try to, like I said, live according to their faith. And not only that, but America's very founding was from religious movements, from people who came to this new world to be able to practice their religion. And religious freedom was fundamental to America in its early years. And as I mentioned, the 19th century, there were these vast evangelical movements. Jonathan Edwards, and the great revivals of the 19th century, that we are all sinners in the hands of angry gods. He stood up there and he gave his sermons before crowds all over the country and had an incredibly loyal following.

13:33Anthony Zurcher:And then the evangelical movements of the 40s and 50s, and even some of the ones that people think are fake, like Jerry Falwell and the televangelists and the big church religions that predominate in the South. The people who go to them firmly believe in them. It motivates them. It motivates in many ways for people to lead better lives. It's not fake, and it's not kind of a gimmick, even if you can pick out certain instances where there are charlatans in the midst. But with any large organization, you can have that. And it's also striking, isn't it, that on quite a few occasions, you think of the evangelicals basically supporting Donald Trump and making whatever mental accommodations they have to make in order to do that.

14:24Because Donald Trump's relationship with these people, as we sort of have just heard, it's an uneasy one. It's discordant, definitely.

14:33Anthony Zurcher:Donald Trump is not one of them. And I think they all realize that he is not one of them. And when I go to Christian conservative conventions here in the United States, one of the things I hear is that the Lord works in mysterious ways. He is a vessel in their view, a vessel that is delivering evangelical Christian conservative policies in federal government for the most part. And while they haven't gotten everything they want on abortion, they had Roe v. Wade struck down, which a lot of Republican politicians promised and Donald Trump delivered. So I think it has been a sometimes uneasy kind of a coalition that Trump has formed with evangelicals, but it is one that has proven durable.

15:21Anthony Zurcher:It's not just that they love Donald Trump, but they don't like the alternative. And at least so far, they've been satisfied with what is delivered. And Donald Trump has surrounded himself with some people who are, you know, very much of the evangelical mold. And some like, for instance, Stephen Miller is one of his senior advisors who doesn't just talk about this conflict in religious terms, but also in kind of cultural, civilizational conflicts. His entire speech, he talks about how this is a battle of civilizations, a battle to preserve the West. And the enemies of conservatism don't understand the dragon that they have awoken.

16:03Anthony Zurcher:I mean, it was a very, you know, firebrand-y kind of speech he gave. Yeah, but on that then, Anthony, to what extent is he right? I mean, have they awoken a dragon? Does this unite the right in a way that's politically significant, do you think, or not? You know, that I think time will tell. This is the moment, but we had moments before and they've ultimately passed. Still, if you look at polls, Donald Trump is not that popular right now. He's in the kind of the flashy red zone where in normal political circumstances, the opposition party will do better and the incumbents will lose next year's midterm election.

16:43Anthony Zurcher:So the question is, is this sustainable? Is this a moment where young conservatives get a sense of motivation and organization that they carry forward? Or is this kind of a spasm that ultimately fades? And the reality is we are still 14 months away from the midterm elections. There's still so much that can happen. And when push comes to shove, as I've said before on this program, Americans vote their pocketbooks. Americans vote the economy. uh americans generally don't vote cultural issues unless times are good so uh it might help conservatives it might give it might lead to some new uh young conservatives becoming more engaged but i would i would be reluctant to say this is definitely a turning point so to speak yeah i i agree with you i mean there was that handshake wasn't there between elon musk and donald trump in the course of it, which a lot of people were excited by or at least interested in.

17:43And there was a broad range of people there. But in a way, the more they spoke, I mean, I'm thinking right across the board, the more they spoke, the more you thought, actually, they're kind of, they are preaching, I mean, in some cases, almost literally preaching to the already converted. And if you think at all about elections reaching out to the other side, I'm not sure that any of this was that. I suppose the slight issue is whether they enthuse now, particularly young people, with, you know, and you hear kind of anecdotally people are talking about a huge rise in church attendance, at least over the course of this weekend, and particularly among young people, whether that could actually then translate into a turnout in 2026, a turnout in the midterms that kind of bucks what we would expect to be the trend, which is that the energized Democrats, because they're all college professors and they've got time on their hands, et cetera, go and vote, and that everyone else doesn't because they haven't got the time and they're not that enthusiastic about it anyway.

18:57I mean, if it turns that on its head or at least slightly nibbles away at that, then that could matter, couldn't it?

19:03Anthony Zurcher:Right. I think you put your finger on it. Usually midterm elections, non-presidential elections, which don't get the same level of attention nationally that presidential elections do, they do hinge on motivation, turning out your base, getting people willing to show up. And so if this does lead to more young conservatives showing up at the polls in a way that they don't normally do during midterm elections and only really did when Donald Trump was on the ticket, then then, yeah, that could that could help make it make it a much more competitive midterm election and help Republicans kind of stand against the tides of history here and precedent where out of out of power parties do really well in midterm elections, particularly in the second term of a president.

19:48Anthony Zurcher:So this watching last night, it felt like there was energy and enthusiasm. And I think in particular, seeing seeing the speakers stand up there, it felt like they were all trying to tap into that and trying to trying to generate that kind of motivation. They know what the possibility is for that. But whether it becomes a reality or not, I think the one takeaway I have from all of this is that Erica Kirk is a legitimate political force. And even if, you know, whatever she does with Turning Point, you know, she lives in Arizona, which is a key battleground state. I think she, I think Republicans are going to be clamoring for her to at some point stand for elective office because Arizona is a key state.

20:32Anthony Zurcher:And I think she would have a really good shot at winning there. Yeah. And she's got to put her life back together. And you think that, you know, giving yourself a sense of purpose when something appalling has happened to you like this and you've got the young children and you want to you want to find something and you are anyway motivated. as she made it plain she was hugely motivated by religious faith you feel that in her there could be something very very forceful i so agree and you know who knows whether that leads to political office in the longer term or whatever it leads to or just actually the revivification of the turning point organization because we should you know we haven't really talked much about charlie kirk himself because we have done in previous episodes but charlie kirk's big contribution to Donald Trump, and we've heard people say he actually got him elected because he went out to colleges, he persuaded young people.

21:25If she gets the organization going and indeed does that herself to an extent, then that itself could make a difference.

21:33Anthony Zurcher:Yeah, there's obviously a lot of energy right now, a lot of enthusiasm and turning points. It was a key factor in last year's presidential election. I mean, they were responsible pretty much for the ground game of Donald Trump's campaign. They were the ones getting people out. I mean, it was all kind of offloaded onto Charlie Kirk and his team's shoulder. So there's the potential for this organization to be an even bigger force now because of all the attention that has been put on it and all of the funds, I'm sure, are going to be coming its way. I mean, I think if you ask most Americans who Charlie Kirk or Turning Points was two weeks ago, they probably would shrug and say they had no idea.

22:16Anthony Zurcher:But now I think it has entered kind of the larger American consciousness. I mean, it goes without saying a lot of this is nakedly political. I mean, nobody was trying to hide it particularly, were they? But I wonder if it's nakedly political in the sense that they think that this is now an instrument. Because you have Pete Hegseth with this extraordinary video that he's put out of kind of military planes rushing around with all the religious imagery associated with war, because he is now the Secretary of State for war, isn't he? And obviously we heard as well from Stephen Miller. They cannot imagine what they have awakened.

22:55They cannot conceive of the army that they have arisen in all of us. Because we stand for what is good, what is virtuous, what is noble. And to those trying to incite violence against us, those trying to foment hatred against us, what do you have? I just wonder the extent to which they think now that this is going to not only kind of intimidate their opponents and make the left think, oh, goodness, have we got the equivalent of this revival where we are? Because I think the answer to that at the moment is pretty certainly no. But are they also much more aggressively going to use it to go after people, potentially with the law, but potentially in other ways as well, in a way that they haven't until now?

23:44Right.