What happened when Trump met Putin in Alaska?

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0:30Adam Fleming:How to Change, as she shares true stories from Nobel laureates, authors, athletes and everyday people about why we make the choices we do and how to make better ones to help avoid costly mistakes. Listen to choiceology at schwab.com slash podcast or wherever you listen.

0:50Hello, it's Sarah here. We promised you an AmeriCast special as soon as the Alaska Summit concluded, well, Donald Trump has finished meeting Vladimir Putin. I was there in the room in this US military base when both the men came out to speak to the media. This was not a press conference. There were no questions being taken from journalists, just a couple of statements from both of them. Here's a flavor of what they said. We had an extremely productive meeting and many points were agreed to. There are just a very few that are left. Some are not that significant. One is probably the most significant, but we have a very good chance of getting there.

1:28We didn't get there, but we have a very good chance of getting there. I would like to thank President Putin and his entire team whose faces, who I know in many cases, otherwise, other than that, whose faces I get to see all the time in the newspapers. You're almost as famous as the boss, but especially this one right over here. But we had some good meetings over the years, right? good productive meetings over the years, and we hope to have that in the future. But let's do the most productive one right now. We're going to stop really five, six, seven thousand, thousands of people a week from being killed.

2:04And President Putin wants to see that as much as I do. So again, Mr. President, I'd like to thank you very much. And we'll speak to you very soon and probably see you again very soon. Thank you very much, Vladimir. Next time in Moscow. Oh, that's an interesting one. I don't know. I'll get a little heat on that one, but I could see it possibly happening. Thank you very much, Vladimir. And thank you all. Thank you. Thank you.

2:30Adam Fleming:Thank you so much. So what else did they say? What else was discussed? And where does this leave Ukraine? I got together with Vitaly Shevchenko and Victoria Derbyshire from UkraineCast and Adam Fleming from Newscast for a special Cast Fest. Here's our conversation. bbc sounds music radio podcasts hello it's adam in the studio it's victoria in the studio it's vitale in anchorage and it's sarah right beside vitale here in anchorage alaska right let's kick off this mega co-production of newscast ukraine cast and americast all the casts and it is 11 minutes past six in the uk where me and victoria are sarah what's what's I've lost track of the time difference now.

3:18It's just past nine o 'clock on Friday evening. So it's not just a different time. It's a different day for us, Adam.

3:25Adam Fleming:OK, right. Just to add to the confusion. So we had the chronology of Putin arriving. And we'll talk about that and the symbolism of that, because that was like a very visual story with a lot of kind of geopolitical implications. Then we had the meeting between the two delegations. That ended up being slightly different from how we had expected it to be. and then just a little while ago we had this news conference between the two principles as you'd call them trump and putin although sarah to call it a news conference is a bit of an exaggeration isn't it well because that suggests that the journalists who were in the room would get a chance to ask questions that's the traditional form of a press conference whereas what happened was we got statements from both of the leaders and then they scurried off the stage before we had a chance to ask them anything so maybe we should call it a joint statement rather than a news conference.

4:13Adam Fleming:And Vic, think about it. The number of times we've watched Donald Trump, the number of times he's just turned up to a podium, said some words and then gone without then answering questions for an hour, two hours on every subject. It's unusual, isn't it? Has it happened since he's come back into the White House for a second time? I can't think of an occasion. He normally loves those press conferences. He talks and talks and talks. He will take as many questions as the assembled members of the press want to throw at him. It was extraordinary. and presumably that's what President Putin wanted. No questions from reporters and that's what he got.

4:50And Vitaly and Sarah, in terms of what we learned for people who are just tuning in and trying to find out what happened at this summit, is there anything to tell our listeners around the world?

5:00Vitaly Shevchenko:No deal, no ceasefire. Well, bottom line is things stand as they did yesterday, yesterday, which is kind of what Vladimir Putin wanted. I think he's going home happy. Donald Trump wanted a ceasefire. That didn't happen for Ukraine. Well, the worst case scenario seems to have been avoided. A scenario in which Donald Trump would have offered Russia Ukrainian territory in exchange for a promise of a ceasefire or a peace deal. That didn't happen either. But uncertainty prevails. Yeah, no deal and no ceasefire, Vitaly. The bizarre thing is there also seems to be no hard feelings about that. I would have thought that Donald Trump would be very disappointed, even possibly angry about leaving this summit empty handed.

5:52We can talk about this at greater length, but he seems to be reasonably happy. Certainly that's his outward countenance. So we should delve into how on earth that can be.

6:01Adam Fleming:So you know what, let's dive into just what happened at that news conference or the press statements. Let's play you a nice chunky clip of what Vladimir Putin, the Russian president, had to say. And this is him speaking through an interpreter because he spoke in Russian for most of it. And he spoke first as well. Yes. The situation in Ukraine has to do with the fundamental threats to our security. Moreover, we've always considered the Ukrainian nation, and I've said it multiple times, a brotherly nation, however strange it may sound in these conditions. We have the same roots and everything that's happening is a tragedy for us and terrible wound.

6:37Therefore, the country is sincerely interested in putting an end to it. At the same time, we're convinced that in order to make the settlement lasting and long-term, we need to eliminate all the primary roots, the primary causes of that conflict. And we've said it multiple times, to consider all legitimate concerns of Russia and to reinstate a just balance of security in Europe and in the world on the whole. And Vitaly, that phrase primary causes, listeners of UkraineCast know it well. The root causes, according to President Putin, must be eliminated. Just remind our listeners around the world what he believes, what Vladimir Putin believes those root causes are.

7:22Vitaly Shevchenko:Well, that was the most important thing he said at that news conference, I thought, or in that statement, rude causes translated from Kremlin speak means the original reasons why he started his special military operation against Ukraine. And those reasons are focused on destroying Ukraine as an independent nation. So what he was saying there is essentially, look, I'm still determined to keep on doing what I have been doing in Ukraine for three and a half years and you're not going to be able to stop me.

7:59Adam Fleming:And Sarah, I suppose that's important because it means a Donald Trump has been subjected to the inevitable history lecture about all of those root causes that may have an effect on his psychology and his viewpoint of the conflict. And also Donald Trump and has just sat there listening to Vladimir Putin making that case to the entire world. Lots of people in America will be tuning into the news tonight where you are and tomorrow morning hearing Putin making that case, a case that they maybe don't hear very often. Yeah. And I mean, it was clear that Donald Trump had listened to that at greater length during the meetings that they'd had behind closed doors.

8:36And then they came out to give these statements. And Donald Trump really happily ceded the floor to Vladimir Putin to go first. That's very, very unusual. Donald Trump likes to go first because he likes to emphasize that he's the most important man on the state. But he happily gifted the floor to Vladimir Putin and listened to him talking about these root causes of the conflict. We know they've had this conversation before because sometimes when Donald Trump comes off the phone with Putin, he sounds really sympathetic towards this idea that there was good reason why Vladimir Putin had to invade Ukraine because he felt that there was a security threat on his borders.

9:16He does seem, and he has just heard these lectures from Putin, to become quite sympathetic to that point of view. And of course, that's the fear, isn't it, of European nations, and most particularly of President Zelensky, that every time Donald Trump is in a room with Vladimir Putin, he becomes more sympathetic to Putin's case. Now, what they didn't do was discuss land swaps or territorial deals and end up actually giving away any of Ukraine. But nonetheless, you could sort of seeing the body language in the room that Donald Trump had been persuaded once again, for now anyway, of Putin's case on this.

9:51So when President Trump said in that statement, so they had a three hour meeting, then there was a 12 minute period where they read out those statements to the press. President Trump said, there were many, many points that we agreed on. Do we have any idea what they agreed on? No. And then he also said that there was one very significant thing that they did not agree on. And he didn't tell us what that was either. And as soon as he had given his statement, Donald Trump headed into an interview with Fox News, where he sat down and the presenter there asked him once again, what is this significant point of disagreement that you couldn't reach an agreement over?

10:33And he wouldn't tell him either. And I don't think it's as simple as just we didn't get a ceasefire. I think it's probably the reason why they weren't able to agree a ceasefire, but precisely what it is that's holding this up, we don't know. But there was a very bizarre thing that Donald Trump then went on and said in that Fox News interview. He said, it's now up to President Zelensky to sort this out and to take this forward so that we can achieve a ceasefire. He didn't say what it is that Vladimir Zelensky is supposed to do to move this forward. But once again, we got that sense that Putin had very effectively made his case and said, you know, the balls in Zelensky's court, not mine, get him to do something so that we can agree a ceasefire.

11:13Don't put it all on me. That was the idea that came out of the way Donald Trump was saying this. It's Zelensky now that needs to move. You talked to Vladimir Zelensky. What's your advice to him? Make a deal. Make the deal. Got to make a deal, yeah. Look, Russia's a very big power. And they're not. They're great soldiers. They have great, but, you know, they also had the best equipment. You know, they had our equipment. We have the greatest military equipment in the world, but they did have courage in fighting. And, you know, they're fighting a big war machine. And we, I think, are close to a deal, but I don't like saying it.

11:49I always say, if I'm really close, I say 50-50, because so many things can happen. But I think President Putin would like to solve the problem.

11:59Adam Fleming:So, Sarah, just before the summit, the sort of the new Lord Expectations version of what the summit was going to produce was a whole host of kind of like mini deals on maybe things like restoring flights between the US and Russia, which had stopped, or joint deals on minerals either in Alaska or in Russia or Ukraine. Did any of that happen at all? There's no indication that they talked about that. Yeah, we thought that they might raise nuclear weapons that Putin might tempt Donald Trump with the idea that they could sign some kind of nuclear deal and that that would gild his reputation that he wants to build as a global peacemaker if they were reducing the number of nuclear weapons in the world.

12:43But there was no mention of any of that, so we don't know if it was discussed or not. But we were just left with this bizarre sense that Donald Trump, even though he had lowered expectations, as they said, they said that this is not going to produce a peace deal in Ukraine, this meeting, he said really specifically on the way here, on Air Force One. He spoke to reporters and said that he wanted to achieve a ceasefire today. And if he didn't get that, he would not be happy. He said, I don't know if it's possible today, but that's what I want. I won't be happy if we don't get it. He really clearly didn't get it.

13:16And he didn't look unhappy. He was sort of, he was gazing rather benignly on Vladimir Putin as he was talking at this joint statement. And at the end of it all, Donald Trump said, I'm sure we're to speak again very soon. We might even meet again very soon." And then Vladimir Putin had a rather cheeky reply.

13:35Vitaly Shevchenko:Next time in Moscow, he said that in English. I thought Donald Trump looked positively charmed, enchanted by Vladimir Putin. And to me, the sign of things to come was when When they met on the tarmac before their meeting, Vladimir Putin was all smiles. He was doing his best to look pleased to see his friend Donald Trump again. It looked like they made jokes to each other. They nearly hugged, they shook hands. And then something really bizarre happened. And so Vladimir Putin's limousine, the Aorus of which Russia is really, really proud because it's Russian-made, was there on the tarmac. But Vladimir Putin got into the car with Donald Trump, Donald Trump's the beast.

14:31Vitaly Shevchenko:And that, I think, was a carefully calculated and prepared ploy. It's a charm offensive. if you want to make whoever you're negotiating with, you want to make them trust you, believe you, like you. This is what you do. That was him signalling to Donald Trump, look, I trust you, I like you, I like your car. Let's travel together. And I thought at that moment, oh, I see where this is going. And I think that trick worked. You don't climb into the beast, of course, as the US president's limousine is known, without being invited. And for all that Putin did turn up clearly ready to charm him, Donald Trump looked ready to be charmed.

15:16I mean, he had rolled out a literal as well as a metaphorical red carpet for Vladimir Putin. As Putin was walking towards him, he was standing clapping his hands, sort of applauding him for arriving and looking absolutely delighted to see him charmed, as you say. And it was fascinating that they got in the car together so they could have a conversation one-on-one because we had been told that it had been planned that they would have a formal one-on-one meeting once they got to the military base and they sat down together, just the two of them and their translators. But that plan got changed by someone and there never was a point of this one-on-one tete-a-tete except for in the limo.

15:53And by the time they were sitting down for formal talks, there was a team of at least three on the American side and on the Russian side. So it was an opportunity, wasn't it, for them to do some business without their foreign affairs advisors

16:04Adam Fleming:listening in do we have any idea where that change of format happened is that like the the wiser people on trump's team trying to hold him back so that he doesn't have that private moment where he can give stuff away do we think that's a product of the lobbying by the europeans was one of their messages privately to trump don't get in a room with him by yourself or was it trump himself thinking actually i don't want to be stuck in that room on my own with this guy but because he didn't even trust himself. Fascinating question, isn't it? I mean, if I was advising the White House, I wouldn't let Donald Trump get a room on his own with Vladimir Putin.

16:42And I would try and insist that he had senior advisors there. But how you tell that to Donald Trump, I'm not entirely sure. The people he ended up with him were Steve Wyckoff, who is the special envoy to Russia, who's been going back and forward and meeting with Vladimir Putin in Moscow and then relaying messages back to Trump and the Secretary of State, Marco Rubio. And that's very interesting because Rubio is much more hawkish on Russia than Donald Trump is. He has been much, much more critical of Vladimir Putin in the past, much more critical of the war in Ukraine. And he wants to get tougher with Russia than Donald Trump's instincts would be.

17:18So to put him in that room may have constrained Donald Trump to a certain extent. Although, of course, by the time they emerged from that room, it wasn't entirely clear how constrained the president had been.

17:27Vitaly Shevchenko:Do you remember the time during the first Trump presidency when people would speak of adults in the room, meaning advisers who knew Russia, who knew Ukraine, who could advise Donald Trump on how to deal with Russia? You don't get to hear that phrase that often anymore. And there weren't that many people in this delegation who were Russia experts of any kind at all. Donald Trump brought with him his Treasury Secretary, his Commerce Secretary, the Defense Secretary turned up. But these aren't people who've got a long background in foreign affairs, let alone in Russian matters. But then, Vitaly, if you look at the people Putin brought with him, these people have been dealing with the West for a long time.

18:06Vitaly Shevchenko:They know exactly what they were doing. So together with Putin in that room with Donald Trump, there was Sergei Lavrov, the longtime foreign minister of Russia, and Yuri Ushakov, President Putin's longtime foreign policy advisor. I mean, you'd struggle to find people who are more experienced in Russia in dealing with the United States. The way you are describing this, it sounds like it's been incredibly successful for President Putin. He's back on the international stage with the leader of the most powerful nation in the world. Russia hasn't signed up to a ceasefire, let alone any details of any agreement.

18:46And there was no mention from Donald Trump of any severe consequences because Russia hasn't signed up to a ceasefire. I mean, it's 10 out of 10 for Moscow, isn't it?

18:53Vitaly Shevchenko:I think there's very little doubt as to who the winners and losers are in this situation. for Vladimir Putin. He's back in from the cold. He got to meet the president of the most powerful country on earth. And Vladimir Putin's state ideology is based on this siege mentality, us versus them, them being the West. And America is the epitome of the West for Russia. It's the main enemy, if you like. So for him, this is about being seen as an equal, respected, feared maybe, and he got it. But Donald Trump doesn't seem to see that he has lost anything within this. And this is what is so puzzling to try and work out.

19:44In that interview with Fox News he did straight after the joint statements, he was asked to mark the interview and he gave it 10 out of 10 as well. So he thinks that somehow he is winning. You have to wonder, he's on Air Force One now, flying back to Washington, whether he's reflecting on what he really got out of this and whether he won anything at all. This is the man who thinks he is the world's greatest dealmaker, who can do a deal with anyone and always come out on top. But what has he walked away with here? It is very, very bizarre. Whereas he has given all this status to Vladimir Putin.

20:20He even said afterwards, he said, we are the number one and the number two countries in the world. Now, I don't think whether you're talking about defence, economy, whatever, anybody ranks Russia as number two. China, by any measure, is that. But there he is. He's even inflating Russia and Vladimir Putin's place on the world stage to flatter him at the point at which he's walked out of these talks with nothing to show for it at all. And in terms of Ukraine and President Zelenskyy Vitaly, what might be going through the minds of Mr Zelensky and the people around him?

20:54Vitaly Shevchenko:Well, standing here in Anchorage, I can almost hear sighs of relief from Vladimir Zelensky's office. The worst thing that could have happened, i.e. being presented with a deal, which would mean handing territory over to Russia. That seems to have been avoided. But the big question now is, what next? What do we do, Donald? I mean, what do you want me to do? Because in the past week or so, Donald Trump criticized Woldimir Zelensky, suggesting that, well, I think Donald Trump wants Woldimir Zelensky to do exactly that, offer some territory to Russia in exchange for a deal. Clearly, this is not something that Vladimir Zelensky will accept.

21:50Vitaly Shevchenko:Clearly, this is not something that the public in Ukraine will accept if you look at the most recent opinion polls. So it's a tricky situation for Zelensky, not least because of all the uncertainty, and also Donald Trump's inability to get Vladimir Putin to stop attacking Ukraine. Donald Trump left saying he's going to call some of the European leaders that he spoke to earlier this week about this. He said he'd be speaking to NATO and others as well. So it's possible, he may even be phoning them from Air Force One as we speak, that after some of those conversations have taken place, we may learn a little bit more about what it is that Vladimir Putin says he needs before he can agree to a ceasefire and what it is that Donald Trump thinks that Zelensky needs to do in order to move closer to that.