Will this be the Donald Trump World Cup? (With Football Daily, part 1)

0:00This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. How has America shaped the world? I'm Asma Khalid, host of the Global Story podcast from the BBC. As the United States marks its 250-year anniversary, we've been exploring the surprising and often hidden ways the US has shaped the modern world. And today on the show, we answer your questions about this moment and what to expect in the years to come. From the BBC, it's the United States at 2.50. Listen to the global story on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.

0:39Hello, Marianna. Hello. Here we are in the same studio at the same time for once. We are. For a special project. Yeah, we are talking about one of my favourite topics, football and the World Cup. Maybe one of your favourite topics. Well, it's about to be, yeah. I mean, I always get into it when it is the World Cup. Yeah, and also I think that this World Cup is particularly interesting, which is why we're talking about it, because it's obviously happening in the US, Mexico, Canada, and there is lots to discuss in terms of geopolitics. And there's a lot going on between a lot of countries at the moment, and a lot of those countries are going to be meeting in the three host countries, the US, Canada and Mexico.

1:15And we're going to have a bit of a theme of threes because we've brought together three podcasts. There's Mind, Newscast. There's AmeriCast, and I'm Not Alone. Not Alone, Anthony. here in Washington, D.C. in America for the American World Cup show. And joining us from the third legendary podcast, it's John Murray from Football Daily. Hello, John. Yes, hello, everyone. Yes, and I know I'm going to be going straight to Mexico. I know I'll be in the United States, and depends what happens in terms of who goes through, who goes out, whether I get to Canada or not. But I'll certainly be going to two of the three.

1:49And for those of you who cannot see John, he's got his proper football commentary lip mic. So I feel like he's in the commentary booth already. Well, in the Football Daily, in the Commentators View podcast, we always do it on lip mics, just to give it that extra little bit of football commentator feel. So old habits die hard. It's making me want to talk very, very closely into my microphone, but that probably will not sound as good. And certainly my content will not be as good as yours, John. Anyway, welcome aboard, because we're going to do three episodes looking at lots of elements of the World Cup, not necessarily the actual football, there's plenty of that elsewhere, but all of the interesting aspects around the politics, the money, the relationships, and some of the things that might happen.

2:30Welcome to a special AmeriCast. AmeriCast. AmeriCast from BBC News. It's going to be the world's largest sporting event ever hosted. But when the time is up, they'll have to go home. FIFA is making$11 billion off of this World Cup. If somebody buys a ticket for the final two minutes, I would personally bring him a hot dog and a Coke. It is such a unifying event. It is also about winning. I may put on shorts. I look extremely good in shorts. Enjoy the play.

3:07Hello, it's Adam in the Newscast Studio. And it is Marianna sitting next to Adam in the Newscast Studio. And it's Anthony in the BBC Bureau in Washington, D.C. And this is John sitting at my desk where I am putting my final preparations to what I'm planning to use once I get to the World Cup for our commentaries. John, does that mean you have a big binder? That's a stationary item very close to my heart. I'm looking around my desk here, Adam, and I've got piles of paper. I've got the current edition of World Soccer. I've got Diego Maradona's autobiography and I've got various other books and files.

3:43So the answer is yes. Marianna's just got her phone, which has fallen out of her pocket. That was what that little thud was. She's got everything on one device. No books or bookshelves, unfortunately. Right. We're recording three episodes. This is the first one. We're doing it on Thursday, the 4th of June, and it is the afternoon. Just so you know what the world looks like as we're recording this episode right now. And this first in our three-part series, we're going to look at kind of the genesis of this World Cup. How did it end up being in Canada, the USA and Mexico, which is quite an unusual situation.

4:13and also this intriguing relationship. I don't want to call it a bromance because that's a bit of a cliche now between the two presidents, Donald Trump and Gianni Infantino of FIFA, because that is an interesting story in itself. So, John, when did you realise you would be spending this summer in North America? Yeah, well, it was when it was announced that it would be the very first World Cup that was to have three hosts in the United States, Canada and Mexico. And the reason for that is it is the biggest World Cup that there's ever been. So it's been expanded by FIFA to include 48 teams. So it'll take place over 39 days.

4:53That's as opposed to the 32 days it would take under the previous format. And I think as well, most significantly in terms of the number of matches, now 48 team world cup means 104 matches compared to 64 in the previous recent editions of the world cup so teams these days will have to get through eight matches to win it instead of seven so that's it it is very simply the biggest that there's ever been and mariana because it's america and it's so polarized and trump is so dominant as a political figure this is like i don't know the oscars the Met, Gala, whatever, there's a Trump element to it, irrespective of what we're actually talking about as the substance of the thing.

5:37Yeah, and I think that's actually why so many people are quite engaged with this, even who aren't that fussed about football. I mean, I say this as I'm very obsessed with football, but quite a lot of people I've been talking to and getting messages from who've been spotting stuff on their social media feeds and saying, oh, this is coming up about the World Cup. So much of that content is about the politics rather than the sport itself. And I think it'll be quite interesting to see when the World Cup actually gets going, how much the politics eclipses the football or not. Maybe everyone will just love the football and the politics will end up being separate.

6:07But I think some of the tensions we're expecting mean that that might not be the case. And Anthony, obviously, I mean, it's exciting that it's coming to your home turf, but I just wonder, has this come to your turf as a political journalist as well? Absolutely. I've been keeping my eye on this ever since the United States was announced as one of the co-hosts of the World Cup. And then when Donald Trump was reelected in 2024, it occurred to be very early on that he's going to be president not only during the Olympics in 2028 and America's 250th birthday celebrations this July, but also the World Cup.

6:43He loves being center stage. He loves being the person, particularly with sporting events. He's been at a connection to sports for most of his adult life, owning a sports football, American football franchise, being involved in boxing. So you knew he was going to inject himself right into the middle of this. And with Donald Trump comes all of the divisiveness, all of the politics, all of the chaos that he has brought to politics ever since he first ran for president in 2015. Although, John, I just wonder with you as a veteran, and I mean that in a nice way, that actually this is maybe nothing new because loads of World Cups take place against a backdrop of controversial things, usually in the host country.

7:26Yeah, I'll take that in the manner intended. Yeah, as I say, I have personally been to seven of the World Cups. This is the 23rd. And really, actually, since the very first one in 1930 in Uruguay, I mean, politics played a big part in that, in the fact that it was decided to be in Uruguay, who had one of the strongest national teams at the time. But if you think back, the next one, 1934 in Italy, Mussolini was all over that one. And the first one I can properly remember watching on the television when Scotland were famously there, Ali's Tartan army in 1978. And I've actually got my World Cup 78 Panini sticker book here with me as well, which I almost filled up.

8:15But I remember it as an 11-year-old watching being absolutely wrapped by it on the television with the ticker tape coming down and just the feel of it and the sort of blurry television pictures. It felt like such a long way away. But, of course, in later years, you know, I've learned that Argentina was being run by a military junta at the time. It was a dictatorship. And, you know, they really ran the show. And, you know, it was almost as political as any World Cup had been at the time in 1978. Other brands of stickers and collectibles are available. Now, when I think back to the World Cups that have happened, while I've been a professional journalist, I think of Qatar in 2022, where quite a lot of migrant workers died when they were building the infrastructure.

9:02And then the Russian invasion of Crimea in 2014, which was obviously before the World Cup happened in Russia in 2018. And when you talk to people about their memories of those tournaments, they talk about the football. They don't talk about the controversies in the build up to the tournament. Yeah, and I think that, you know, in the build up especially, there's a lot more kind of analysis and critique and reflection on the politics and what it'll mean and how it will unfold. And we saw that in the build up to both Russia and Qatar. But once the football gets going, I think the question, I think this is the big question for the United States.

9:37And I'm sure, Anthony, you've got lots to say about this, you know, thinking about where there could be flashpoints, if there's any gun violence, if there are any issues around ice and immigration raids and that sort of thing. I think it's whether there's any aggro that unfolds during the tournament itself that could dictate whether we talk about politics. Because if you think of Russia, for example, or Qatar, largely although there was controversy before those tournaments they ran pretty smoothly and there weren't any problems and anthony we'll dig into some of those issues in this episode and in future episodes as well because this is a three-part mini series we're doing so we've got we've got plenty of time but anthony just give us this kind of the origin story of this world cup like why did why did the three countries get together in the in the first place well i think part of it was because the scope of this world cup was much bigger uh with as john mentioned more teams that this was going to be one of the biggest World Cup in the tournament's history.

10:34They needed to be able to produce it over a much wider piece of real estate. We had had joint World Cups before. Obviously, Japan and South Korea hosted a World Cup. But this one with the United States, with Mexico, with North America, they all pitched the idea together. They thought this would be a unifying type of proposal. These three countries that were closely connected geographically, but also by their trade relationships that they would be able to put on the kind of show that would befit this much larger World Cup undertaking. So it was quite a proud moment for, I think, all three countries in the beginning.

11:16I think they saw this as an opportunity to put together a unified front and put their best foot forward. And when you read the original bids document, which is this huge doorstopper of a book that they put together to win the bid a few years ago. The theme that just keeps coming out of that, and you don't need to be a football expert, is just that all the stadiums, or stadia, we should say, are already built. There's loads of hotels. There's loads of airports. This is ready-to-go, pre-packed World Cup set of venues that Morocco, who were competing in that bidding process, just couldn't match, really, John.

11:51Yeah, that's right. It's a little bit like a political manifesto, isn't it? The bid document. You can always go back, can't you, and say, well, what about this? What about that? What's in the bid document doesn't always turn out to be exactly what happens on the ground. But, you know, with the USA as the mainstay of the bid against Morocco, who tried and tried and tried and failed and failed and failed. And actually, since then, they will be hosting the next World Cup along with Portugal and Spain. So they will get their chance next time round. But yes, that was the infrastructure that existed in the United States and in Canada and Mexico, you know, was a strong deciding factor, I feel, particularly when you look back to other recent World Cups, when it's been a real rush to get the stadiums finished.

12:42Although in saying that, I do know that in Mexico City, they've updated the Azteca Stadium. And I know that's a little bit of a race against time to get that ready for the start of the World Cup. Good, good. There's a challenge Anika subplot because you do need that in the build up to all major sporting events, even if the hosts claim everything's ready to go. Anthony, also in that big book, the kind of the big slogan that they keep pushing is unity, certainty, opportunity. Well, certainly two of those three things have been in short supply in North America in the two Trump presidencies. Yeah, it's been a difficult time for U.S.-Mexico-Canada relations, even in Donald Trump's first term with what he was doing on the U.S.-Mexico border and the crackdown and the call to build a wall.

13:24But particularly now in this second term, which started in January of last year, because Donald Trump focused on tariffs and trade and the two countries or two of the first countries he targeted with tariffs were Mexico and Canada, two of the United States's biggest trading partners. that alone would have been disruptive and that alone would have cast a shadow over this tournament. But you throw in Donald Trump calling for Canada to be America's 51st state, referring to then Prime Minister Justin Trudeau as Governor Trudeau and the back and forth between these two countries where Canada took all of America's liquor products off their shelves.

14:05The United States reprised with their own additional tariffs and it has made for some unfriendly relationships. And you actually see it with some of the Canadian attitudes towards other countries. Mark Carney, the current prime minister, giving speeches abroad that directed his country to move in a different direction than the United States and start exploring other relationships outside of what had been the close U.S.-Canada relations. Relations with Mexico are still tense because of border concerns, immigration concerns and and crackdowns of undocumented migrants who have come into the United States through Mexico.

14:42So all of that puts puts the relations not on a unified kind of a footing that I think they had hoped that this World Cup would would produce. I would say, Adam, by the way, that having been at the draw in Washington for the finals, which planned out the whole schedule that we have, typical politics, they were all on the stage together. Donald Trump, Mark Carney, Claudia Scheinbaum, Gianni Infantino. You know, they were, you'd think that they were the greatest of mates. And that was just a few months ago. And so, you know, they have to get along for the sake of the World Cup. Also, Mariana, I'm just thinking if you were going to watch all 104 World Cup matches, and if anyone was going to do that or was able to do that, it would be you, I think, that I know.

15:3078 of those matches are in the US, 13 each in Canada and Mexico. So actually, it's going to feel like a very USA heavy World Cup. Yeah, and I would say as well that a lot of the kind of outward, a lot of the content we're seeing in the messaging, I mean, to be honest, if you were Mexico and Canada, you might be a bit annoyed, really, because you've kind of been slightly lost in that. I think particularly because of the political context and because Donald Trump is such a sort of advocate for the US hosting the World Cup. The noise that I'm seeing, certainly in the social media world, but beyond, is very much focused on the USA and not really on the other places.

16:03and you're suddenly like, oh, hang on a second, this match is in Mexico City or this is happening in Canada. And if you were them, you'd be thinking, hang on a sec, we are actually a bit involved, but like you point out, less involved than the US. And that kind of explains why so much of the focus is on America. Although, John, I mean, Mexico, I mean, they've got their own place in World Cup history, host the history books. Yep. This is the first time that any country will hold matches in three men's World Cup tournaments. And actually, they've held a women's World Cup as well. So that is also a record to host four senior World Cup tournaments.

16:43And the Aztec Stadium, where the opening match will be played, is one of the iconic venues for the World Cup. If you were to put together a showreel of, I don't know, the top 20, 25 moments of the World Cup, probably four or five of them would be inside the Aztec Stadium, which is where we saw the Diego Maradona hand of God goal in 1986. Both Pele and Maradona have won the World Cup in that stadium. England have a great history there as well because they played there during the course of the 1986 World Cup before that match against Argentina. And it is one of the iconic venues. I'm here in the United States, and I remember the hand of God goal in 1986.

17:30That was one of my first World Cup memories. It made headlines here in the U.S., even before soccer really took off in the United States is something that people rank and follow people paid attention to. Although, Anthony, America's history of hosting the World Cup, mainly in my teenage mind, was Diana Ross missing a penalty at the very lavish opening ceremony in 1994. I'm sure there was much more spectacular football than that the following weeks, but the thing that lodged in my mind was that image. Yeah, that wasn't the best start to it, obviously, But it was the first chance for America to see a World Cup up close.

18:06And I will say that a lot of Americans really got into it and enjoyed it. You know, America usually doesn't pay attention to the rest of the world unless it's right in front of their noses. And this put soccer right in front of our noses. And it helped launch the MLS, Major League Soccer League, that is still going on and has expanded and has quite a following here in the United States now. And I remember there was a July 4th knockout round game between the United States and Brazil in that tournament. And on the 4th of July, the United States playing, it was quite a celebration. And I actually went to a game here in Washington, D.C.

18:42because it hosted some opening round games and a knockout round game. I saw Spain beat Switzerland in the knockout round. And so it pulled a lot of Americans in despite the kind of rocky start that it got off to with those opening ceremonies. And I re-watched the clip of Diana Ross doing the penalty. And in defence of Diana Ross, she actually is not that wide of the goal. It's pretty close. And also, she is singing live in a massive ceremony. And then she goes on to a stage to do the rest of the show. So she had other things on her mind. And also, she didn't present herself as like top female athlete.

19:15She was like top singer. Anyway, so that's my defence of Diana Ross. It was the tournament that started and finished with a missed penalty because Roberto Baggio missed the penalty. that decided it for Brazil. And it started with Diana Ross's missed penalty in the opening ceremony. Poetic, John. Pop and football are two passions combined. Right, talking of celebrities, John, just introduce me to the FIFA president, Gianni Infantino, who is actually becoming, I feel, sort of more and more of a global character. Yeah, and I think part of that is his very close relationship with Donald Trump. um you know he was seen as the man who would bring to fifa you know he'd change everything after the set blatter years and and everything that we associated with that and and and that he would clean up fifa clean up the world game and um he's very much done it his own way and i think i don't think it would be an understatement to say that he enjoys the power and there is immense power of being the FIFA president.

20:23So, you know, I'm not sure when eventually his time in that role will come to an end. And I have a feeling that if he's able to extend it as long as he possibly can, he would do that. And anyone that has been circling, who, you know, is seen as a potential successor, just seems to have melted away. He is an extremely powerful man, possibly the most powerful man in world sport. And let's get a little flavour of his relationship with Donald Trump. This is a little bit of their conversation in the Oval Office, which was in August 2025, when there was a handover of some silverware, although it was probably actually goldware, now that I think about it.

21:04We brought as well this, which is the winner's trophy. It is the trophy that the winner of the FIFA World Cup wins. Only the FIFA president, presidents of countries, and then those who win can touch it, because it's for winners only. And since you are a winner, of course, you can as well touch it. It's pretty heavy. It's the winner trophy. The last one who lifted that is Leo Messi, Leonardo Messi of Argentina. And here it is in the overall office in the White House. Can I keep it? Well, you can keep it. We're not giving it back. We're not giving it back. That's serious. It fits well. It's very well on the wall right over there.

21:50We'll put it right below the angels. It fits well here. That's beautiful. Until we have to give it to the next winner. That's fine. That's a beautiful piece of gold. That's beautiful. Gianni Infantino seems to be handing things over to Donald Trump every time he sees him. Well, I was going to say that I feel like Infantino and Donald Trump's relationship, certainly, well, people's discussion about that relationship really was turbocharged when this incredibly viral clip spread everywhere when Chelsea won this competition, which is like the, what was it even called? Club World Cup. Not to disparage it, not to disparage it.

22:30But that's interesting because you love football and you have to sort of go back into your memory banks to remember the competition. It's a sort of new, it's kind of a bit of a new thing. And so Chelsea won this competition and there were these clips of the team lifting the trophy and Donald Trump is just standing beside them. And you can see like, you know, really famous footballers like Cole Palmer and Rhys James of Chelsea being like, hang on, why is this man here? Because that is not normal. Like the president or whoever doesn't normally hang about on the side of the team lifting the trophy.

23:00And a lot of people found the clip really funny. Some people were also like, hang on a sec, is this football getting political? And quite a few of the footballers afterwards, like Cole Palmer, were asked, why did you react like that? And essentially their answer was like, we weren't quite sure why he was still there. But all of that felt quite symptomatic of the closeness of the relationship between Donald Trump and Infantino. E.g. it's totally fine for him to hang about as they lift the trophy. And it felt like Donald Trump sort of getting into football. And I would say that Infantino, separately from Donald Trump, although this is the case for both of them, they are either sort of very hated or very loved online.

23:34They are very, very divisive figures who are very good at kind of playing the outrage machine in that way. And Infantino is probably the first person, I guess, I don't know what you think, John, but it doesn't feel like characters. Often FIFA or these football bodies feel very faceless and he's certainly not faceless. And that's been quite interesting seeing how that's unfolded and how people direct their anger and frustration at FIFA, at Infantino specifically. Well, that scene, which was in the same stadium where the World Cup final will be this year in New Jersey, on the stage went against all of the protocols that I'm used to seeing as an observer of football, as a football commentator.

24:14That's the point where the suits leave the scene. And actually, at the time, Infantino tried to persuade Donald Trump to leave Chelsea on the stage with Rhys James lifting the trophy, and he wasn't for budging. Yeah, you sort of saw him just kind of staring at them. They were lifting this trophy. Welcome to Donald Trump's America, where protocol does not matter. He's going to do what he wants. And if it's a big stage, as I mentioned before, he is going to find a way to get on it and stay on it, even if it makes people uncomfortable. Although, John, I'm just wondering, with your knowledge of World Cup's past, are there actually that many opportunities for the leader of the host country to actually insert themselves into the events in a big way?

24:56Oh, yeah, absolutely. And, you know, we've had this probably most notably with the last couple of tournaments in Qatar. And do you remember Lionel Messi coming forward and having that cloak put on him to go and lift up the trophy? I mean, that was unusual. But, you know, again, the dignitary stayed out of the way there. And of course, Putin was front and center of the World Cup in Russia in 2018, particularly when it came to the final. And do you remember as well the president of Croatia? Because the presentation of the trophy happened during a torrential downpour. Oh, yeah. And he was given an umbrella.

25:37But the president of Croatia, who was brilliantly turned out, She was wearing the sort of red and white checkered outfit of Croatia. She was left out on her own without an umbrella with the rain pouring down on her head. Yeah, absolutely soaked. I honestly think Infantino is the most kind of clippable person who's ever been related to FIFA. I just think I've rarely seen... Well, Sepp Blatter gave it a good goal. He did, but he was not nearly... Exactly, but not even nearly as prolific, I would say, as Infantino. But maybe that tells us something about how social media has evolved rather than the people themselves.

26:10And Anthony, I was talking about Infantino handing over gold things to Donald Trump. We alluded to the Peace Prize, which was newly created by FIFA. Around about the time Donald Trump was at peak anger of not receiving the Nobel Peace Prize. And he handed it over to him in the draw at the Trump-Kennedy censor, which I remember watching that Friday afternoon and just finding a completely bizarre kind of event to watch, but quite compelling. did that did that make any difference that peace prize because i feel that is what when trump became sort of less interested in peace and actually the number of wars increased and you remember he wrote that letter that was leaked to the prime minister of norway saying maybe if you're not going to give me the peace prize i'm not going to do as much for peace as as i had been and and lo and behold uh now we've been in a war with iran for over over two months.