Will Trump delay releasing the Epstein Files?

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0:20Marianna Spring:How has America shaped the world? I'm Asma Khalid, host of the Global Story podcast from the BBC. As the United States marks its 250-year anniversary, we've been exploring the surprising and often hidden ways the U.S. has shaped the modern world. And today on the show, we answer your questions about this moment and what to expect in the years to come. From the BBC, it's the United States at 250. Listen to the global story on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.

0:54A huge drama in Washington with potentially huge ramifications around the United States. The Epstein files are a big step closer to being made public after both houses of Congress backed a bill that compels the US Justice Department to release all of its files from investigations into the convicted sex offender Jeffrey Epstein. All that's left for Donald Trump now is to sign it into law. Or how long will it be before the public now get to see the files? Is it enough to end a growing rift between the president and his own party base? Welcome to AmeriCast.

1:32Marianna Spring:AmeriCast. AmeriCast from BBC News. When Donald Trump calls, they say, yes, sir. Right away, sir. Happy to lick your boot, sir. We are the sickest country in the world. Oh, dear. Are you worried that billionaires are going to go hungry? Of course the president supports peaceful protests. What a stupid question. Are you still talking about Jeffrey Epstein?

1:58Hello, it's Sarah here in the BBC's Bureau in Washington. And it's Justin in the worldwide headquarter of AmeriCast in London, England.

2:05Marianna Spring:And it is Mariana sitting next to Justin in the worldwide headquarters in London. We have so much to talk about in this episode, don't we, Justin Mariana? because I think that this vote in Congress to force the release of the Epstein files is going to be one of the most momentous things that has happened in this first year of President Trump being back in office. It's huge news. People are fascinated, gripped by what's in the Epstein files. It's a moment of jeopardy for President Trump, who hasn't wanted to release them, and for many of the other people who may well be mentioned in them. But it's also the first time his congressional Republicans have stood up against him and they've won.

2:42So I think on many different levels, this is a really important story for us to dig into. Yeah, it's an interesting point, that, isn't it? When you say stood up against him and won, he changed his mind, didn't he, at the last minute. So I said, go ahead and vote. But let's be absolutely clear. He did not want this vote to take place. They delayed it, didn't they, Sarah, quite considerably. They didn't want to hold it at first. They tried to find ways, procedural ways of not holding it. And in the end, only one member of the House of Representatives, a guy called Clay Higgins. Do we know much about Clay Higgins, Sarah?

3:15We assume it was some sort of point of principle, was it, that led him to be the only vote in the whole House of Representatives against it? Yes, he says he is worried about the release of information in these files that could harm victims or underage people, that he thinks that there is stuff in there that shouldn't be made public because it would be harmful to the people involved. But let me walk you through how 427 other members of the House of Representatives, all bar Clay Higgins, ended up voting for this measure. So it's been wrangling on for months through Congress. You had two congressmen, one Republican, one Democrat, had put together this petition that if they got enough representatives to sign, it would force a vote on the floor of the House.

4:01The Speaker couldn't stop it. So they had been gathering signatures for months. They had four Republicans on there and then they just needed one more name. And then after a by-election, another Democratic congresswoman was eventually sworn in after the government shutdown came to an end. She added her name to the petition and that was it. There was going to be a vote on the floor of the House. Now, Donald Trump really put a lot of pressure on those four Republicans to get them to remove their names from the petition. He even had one of them, Nancy Mace, not just into the White House, into the Situation Room to try and persuade her to remove her name from the petition.

4:36He couldn't do that. And this was barreling towards a vote, which it was pretty clear he was going to lose. We were looking at dozens, possibly 100 Republican representatives defying Donald Trump and voting to release the Epstein files. And they were doing that because their constituents will be furious with them if they voted to keep this stuff covered up, given the promises so many of Republicans have made during election campaigns saying they want the Epstein files out there. Then on Sunday, at the last minute, facing this rebellion, Donald Trump put on social media that he was in fact encouraging House Republicans to vote in favour of the release of the Epstein files.

5:15So they had permission to do so. And as we say, all Democrats, all Republicans bar that one, Clay Higgins, voted in favour of releasing the Epstein files. And then the Senate actually agreed unanimously to pass this as well. So that means it's on its way to the president's desk, this bill that actually compels the Justice Department to release all the information. And Donald Trump did say on Monday, if it gets to his desk, he'll sign it. He hasn't yet, but that's what we're waiting for.

5:43Marianna Spring:Yeah, and some of the most vocal people, understandably, calling for the vote and then also for the files to be released have been the survivors and their families, particularly the family of Virginia Giuffre, who accused Jeffrey Epstein of sexual abuse and took her own life earlier this year. And Skye Roberts, her brother, told NBC News yesterday that it was time finally for accountability. It is going to go on President Trump's desk. I mean, we are very hopeful for that. But there's a lot of fight left because the first step in the healing journey or just in this journey of justice is acknowledgement first.

6:14Marianna Spring:and then it's accountability. Once we do get the files released and we do uncover the names of some of the most rich and powerful politicians and financiers and world leaders, I mean, it's time to hold them to account, whether that's social justice or whether that's true justice, which is our legal system. Now, that's an important point that Sky Roberts made there, which I think is worth stressing. People don't want these files released simply for the salacious content in them or because it might be politically embarrassing to some high profile people. They believe that some of Epstein's friends and associates who participated in the abuse of these young women are named in the files and that there might be enough evidence in there to prosecute them.

6:55And that's the reason that they're campaigning so hard for this. They want to see other abusers brought to justice and they think the route to that is releasing these files and seeing what information is in there. Yeah, and of course, as part of that, that's why prosecutors and lawyers for the abused women want former Prince Andrew to be part of this process, not because they necessarily think that he did anything wrong himself and he's always denied it, but because he might be a witness, because he might have been there at various stages, have seen various things, and it's long been a demand of theirs, hasn't it, that he takes part now in a process that allows him to say on oath what he saw.

7:36And it won't stop with him, will it? That's the whole point, sir, exactly, that there are all sorts of other people who may now be called to testify because it will become obvious and publicly obvious that they were involved, if not in any wrongdoing, then they actually were there at a time when wrongdoing might have happened. And that's important. That's right. The Congressional Committee looking into this really want former Prince Andrew to come and speak to them and tell them who he saw, what he saw, and some of the details around the parties and social life of Jeffrey Epstein. but they can't compel him to come and give evidence.

8:11But if there are American citizens named in these files who it would appear might have valuable evidence, they could subpoena them and compel them to come before Congress.

8:20Marianna Spring:I know U-turns don't sort of exist in Donald Trump's world. But the big question, what has gone on? Why? Well, I mean, it's interesting, isn't it, Sarah? Whether or not it's a U-turn, it's absolutely unquestionably something he has been forced to do that he didn't seem to want to do. And that in Donald Trump world is unusual, isn't it? I mean, it really genuinely is and forced to do it by Congress as well. And we spent goodness knows how many months saying, where's Congress? What are they up to? Why aren't they doing X, Y or Z? Why don't they have a bigger role in the tariffs or a bigger role in this or that?

8:55Well, suddenly here we are. They do have a big role, don't they? Because this essentially has been foisted on him. Yeah, absolutely. And by the four Republicans who signed on to that petition. And so that's Thomas Massey, who, along with Ro Khanna, who's a Democrat congressman, authored this bill. And then three probably of the most prominent MAGA women, Marjorie Taylor Greene, Lauren Boebert and Nancy Mace were the other three who signed on. And it did provoke the ire of Donald Trump. He has been lashing out against them. He's even been calling Marjorie Taylor Greene a traitor. And she says that that's led to death threats against her and that she's worried about violent attacks.

9:33I mean, it's a real nasty spat right at the heart of MAGA. And it matters because we thought that these were three of the most loyal of Donald Trump's representatives, but also they represent the MAGA constituency. And this is an issue which is actually, you know, it's driven right to the heart of Donald Trump's supporters, because a lot of them, as faithfully as they follow him and everything else, really want these files published. And so it's led to a split in Congress, but also a split in his support as well. And I think it could go on to be really quite important and meaningful.

10:08Marianna Spring:I think that's especially interesting that, you know, the way that a lot of the pressure has come from within the MAGA movement. And we chatted on another episode of AmeriCast all about the role that these influencers have played, particularly on sites like X, actually, which might be small, but still has a kind of mighty impact in terms of political discourse. and the ability of some of these influencers who have really really gone hard at Donald Trump about the Epstein files really wanted them released you know a lot of them post quite frequently about their concerns around abuse of power and specifically abuse of power when it comes to you know sexual abuse and sexual abuse of minors and so I think actually another thing as well aside from the congress point which is an important point is that this shows that this kind of small but mighty, very loud bunch of influencers on social media have also managed to basically direct the discourse.

10:59Marianna Spring:And Donald Trump is slightly having to, you know, that's part of why this has become such a big deal as well, not just the kind of political mechanisms. They've got under his skin and it's not clear why, is it? I mean, given that he says he didn't like Epstein, he fell out with him, et cetera, et cetera. And there's no evidence, again, that Donald Trump has done anything wrong. But given all of those things are out there, He is weirdly affected by all of this, weirdly and publicly and openly. Had this strange interaction, didn't he, with a Bloomberg reporter, a woman called Catherine Lucy, on Air Force One, when she tried to ask him about all of the files and his own reaction to them and why they hadn't already been released.

11:40Let's listen to that.

11:42Marianna Spring:Jeffrey Ebsen and I had a very bad relationship for many years. but he also saw a strike because I was president. So he dictated a couple of memos to himself. Give me a break. You've got to find out what did he know with respect to Bill Clinton, with respect to the head of Harvard, with respect to all of those people that he knew, including J.P. Morgan Chase. Yeah, Jennifer, go ahead. There's nothing incriminating in the file, sir. Why not? Quiet, quiet, Mickey. Yeah, so if you didn't quite catch that there, that was the reporter Catherine Lucey. trying to ask if there's nothing incriminating in the files, why not just release them?

12:19And he interrupted her to say, quiet, quiet piggy, which is a pretty disgusting remark to make towards anyone, particularly a female reporter on Air Force One with him there. But it also shows you how deeply this has got under his skin. He hates being asked about the Epstein files. He doesn't like talking about them full stop, but he also thinks it's distracting from the wider agenda that instead of talking about what he says are his great successes in office, he's being constantly berated with questions about the Epstein files. And it happened again in the Oval Office on Tuesday when he was welcoming the Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman.

12:54He was asked by Mary Bruce of ABC about the Epstein files and that turned into a really nasty exchange.

13:00Marianna Spring:Mr. President, why wait for Congress to release the Epstein files? Why not just do it now? Well, it's not the question that I mind. It's your attitude. I think you are a terrible reporter. It's the way you ask these questions. You start off with a man who's highly respected, asking him a horrible, insubordinate and just a terrible question. And you could even ask that same exact question nicely. You're all psyched. Somebody psychs you over at ABC. You're going to psych him. You're a terrible person and a terrible reporter. Just to kind of address that why it bothers him so much question. and as ever, we can't get inside his head and know exactly why.

13:43Marianna Spring:Although, like you say, Sarah, you know, the distraction point, I think, probably makes sense. What I would say from looking certainly at the kind of social media world that Donald Trump has so effectively harnessed over many years, including during his first presidency, is that themes around the corrupt elites and powerful people doing bad things, abusing their power, and particularly around sort of the issue of paedophiles and sexual abuse, those have been such powerful topics within those circles. And Donald Trump has actually succeeded in pointing his finger at many enemies by kind of sending them in that direction and saying, look, look, look, these people are really bad people who do bad things.

14:18Marianna Spring:And so I think that this is sort of where those kinds of conspiracy theories, which make up a kind of section of the MAGA support, kind of bite back. But then also, I guess the other thing people are talking about is, well, is there is it because he's worried about something that's going to be going to be released in the files? And that's obviously been the kind of question on everyone's lips, you know, very specifically, is there something really embarrassing? And I suppose on that, Sarah, the question now is what does he do about all of this when it comes to actually, in practical terms, letting people have access to information?

14:49And we've had a question, a good question, I think, from someone called Derek who's got in touch with us to say, could Trump avoid embarrassing disclosures by simply classifying such embarrassing material? How would anyone know? Surely in the context of Trump pushing the legality to the limits, lawmakers are alive to this. Are steps being taken even to prevent it, Sarah? We know that Donald Trump thinks that he can classify material simply by thinking about it, because that was a famous statement that he gave when he was being asked about all of those classified documents he'd taken from the White House and that the FBI found stored at Mar-a-Lago whilst he was out of office.

15:24But that aside, frankly, I don't know. But I mean, I think it would be very difficult to say that something that was just embarrassing about Republican politicians or rich donor friends of his made it into classified information. Now, what they might be able to do is refuse to release some information if it might jeopardize an ongoing investigation. And just a few days ago, to try and distract from some of this, Donald Trump specifically ordered the Justice Department to investigate some well-known Democrats and their links to Epstein. So former President Bill Clinton, Larry Summers, former Treasury Secretary and president of Harvard, who served in Democrat administrations, and Reid Hoffman, a very, very wealthy Democrat donor.

16:07And so the Justice Department is looking at them. They could plausibly say, as part of ongoing investigations, there is some stuff that we cannot release. But it's going to be quite difficult to hold back too much, just given the political pressure that has now, well, defeated Donald Trump, basically, on this issue. Marianne, I'm sure you're aware, though, that there's a new conspiracy theory going around that 1 ,000 FBI agents have been combing through the documents already to remove any mention of Donald Trump.

16:37Marianna Spring:As ever, the conspiracy theories are out and about. So some of it is genuine conspiracy, speculation, all that kind of stuff. Some of it is satire. So some of it is people kind of joking about, you know, posting on X with just like entire documents that are just black lines. No doubt when these files are released, conspiracy land especially will go quite bonkers but also actually quite validly there probably will be some things that have been unfounded theories that we didn't know the truth about that we might actually finally get answers to um and it's where we sit in that murky bit of what actually is conspiracy theory yeah and it's worth saying as well sarah i mean there's a load of material here which for perfectly proper reasons can't be brought out so number one some of the victims don't want their names to be known and obviously that that will be kept to number two There is CCTV footage, and you can imagine it would be quite easy for some of that to be lost.

17:33Indeed, another conspiracy theory is that when Epstein killed himself in prison, it is interesting that the tapes at one stage, his cell was taped, that the tapes are missing for a crucial minute or two, etc., etc., and that led to a whole load of conspiracy theories. And there are people, including Epstein's brother, actually, who think he may have been murdered in jail. So the fullness of the CCTV records from Epstein's properties will also be questioned, won't it? And there is other material as well, potentially video material, etc., including potentially talk of child abuse videos. And none of that is going to see the light of day and nor obviously should it.

18:14But I suppose the point I'm making, Sarah, is that this is not going to be one great announcement of everything. There is going to be stuff that isn't in it. And I guess that will lead to a further wave of calls for it to be released and further wave of suggestions that actually everything that should have come out won't have come out. Oh, almost certainly. And we heard from Pam Bondi, the attorney general, earlier in the year when she announced that they weren't going to release the Epstein files after all. And she said that basically all that was left in there that hadn't been made yet public was, yes, the names of victims and that there was nothing in there that could plausibly lead to anybody else being prosecuted.

18:53So it'd be fascinating to see if that's the case. But I mean, of course, the first thing anyone is going to do is comb through it looking for mentions of Donald Trump, who did socialize with Jeffrey Epstein. That's well known, who has been mentioned in some of the emails and other documents that have been released, but never with any real suggestion of wrongdoing. And this is what is so bewildering about this is if Donald Trump never did participate in any wrongdoing in Jeffrey Epstein's company or circle, why is he so keen to keep these files locked down? Because he said during the election campaign that he would publish them for the first couple of months of the administration.

19:33They seem prepared to do that. Then suddenly around about Easter, there was this U-turn from the Justice Department. So there's all sorts of speculation from whether it could be mentions of him, mentions of his friends or wealthy donors. He frequently makes the point, though, that actually Epstein hung out with far more Democrats, donated to far more Democratic politicians that they've got more to lose. Well, if that's the case, why isn't he publishing them? He also says, look, the Biden administration had these for four years when there wasn't such pressure to publish them. He said, if there was anything incriminating about me in there, don't you think they would have used it already, not least during the election campaign?

20:11Not a bad point. But again, if he's so sure he's not incriminated, why on earth has been so opposed to publishing him? That's what I mean, no wonder it fuels conspiracy theories when nobody can work out what his motives are there. We ought to talk a bit about what is actually in them when it comes to what the material is that we almost certainly know will be released and why that material is so important. And part of it, as you say, Sarah, is about Donald Trump, but part of it is much wider than Donald Trump, isn't it? So we have got a question from Rebecca, which I think we ought to try to approach.

20:41So what Rebecca asks is, I get that the Epstein files are some kind of political Pandora's box of torrid goings on. But what exactly are they? Who compiled them and when? And who is the keeper of the aforesaid? And I think the first thing to say, Sarah, about that is you've got to go back to 2008, haven't you? That year is really important in all of this because it was in 2008 that Epstein actually goes to jail. He pleads guilty to one offence. It's the solicitation for prostitution of a minor, a girl who was 14 years old. It's a state offence and he goes to jail for it. But a very open jail is actually allowed to leave every day in a car and go and work in his office and then go back to the prison.

21:26there is a ton of other material around at the time isn't there so there's a federal case being built against him because there are lots of other girls and they're not young women they are girls they are underage the age of consent in florida is 18 and a lot of these girls were under that age and yet he doesn't get prosecuted except for that one offense and that prosecution in 2008 and eight is when everyone, it is fair to say, isn't it, Sarah, could have known, should have known what kind of a man Epstein was. And that is why all the material relating to that case, the federal investigation that never went anywhere, and then eventually when there was an investigation that went anywhere and he was arrested again in 2019, all of the material surrounding that as well.

22:19So this will be all the emails, all the contexts of his life will be in these files. And that's why it's so important. Yeah, essentially, it's the product of a lengthy FBI investigation into, well, two different criminal investigations, as you say, in 2008, and eventually in 2019. And in the normal course of events, we might have seen quite a lot of the evidence that had been gathered against him during the course of a trial. Of course, he died in prison before this case ever came to trial. So this information has been locked away by the FBI. It's kept by the Justice Department now. So ultimately in charge of that is Donald Trump's Attorney General, Pam Bondi.