Talk Your Book: The Joneses Aren't That Happy

0:04Welcome to Animal Spirits, a show about markets, life and investing. Join Michael Batnick and Ben Carlson as they talk about what they're reading, writing, and watching. All opinions expressed by Michael and Ben are solely their own opinion and do not reflect the opinion of Ritholtz Wealth Management. This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be relied upon for any investment decisions. Clients of Ritholtz Wealth Management may maintain positions in the securities discussed in this podcast.

0:34Dr. Daniel Crosby, welcome back to Animal Spirits. Thank you. It's great to be with y 'all. All right. So for those of you who are unfamiliar with Daniel's work, Daniel is the chief behavioral officer at Orion, and he is one of my favorite voices in the world of, I'm going to say finance, talking about the intersection of markets and more specifically, is there another word to use for behavior? What do you do? Talk about the real stuff. The shit that matters. That's what you talk about. The real stuff. There we go. We'll go with that. Human first advice is gaining some momentum. him. But yeah, the artist formerly known as behavioral finance, for sure.

1:10You've written a lot of books. What number was this? The Soul of Wealth? It's my third solo book, my fourth book. Yeah. Okay. So writing a book, in my opinion, sucks. It's not a lot of fun. There's not a lot of payoff. There's more downside than upside. It's not all bad. There's obviously some good stuff, like we have to have this conversation, but it's not easy. So I'm guessing that you felt some sort of overwhelming need to do this, pulling you forward to sit down after your family goes to sleep or before they wake up to take the time to write this book. What was the seed of inspiration, the moment that you said, all right, I'm doing it?

1:50Yeah, it's the only reason. It's a totally irrational act. You're right. It's the only reason to do it. There was a micro and a macro consideration. The micro consideration was I thought that I was dying. I won't I won't spoil the whole thing, but I had some sort of big health problems that turned out to be no big deal. But there was this moment when I'm you know, my wife is driving me to the hospital. I think I'm dying and I just really didn't care about money. I mean, I looked at her and I said I would give up every penny we have to figure out what the hell is wrong with me. And I love money.

2:26I mean, I write about it. I think about it. I invested. I love money. But in that moment, I did not care one iota about it. And it was this interesting moment for me. I write about that in the book. The macro consideration is, you know, when this country was founded, 85 % of the world was living in extreme poverty. Today, that number is less than 9%. And yet over that 250 years, you know, we're sadder now than we were then. We're more disconnected. We have a mental health crisis. We have a loneliness crisis. So we have this weird paradox of living in the wealthiest, most materially abundant world we've ever lived in, and yet people are kind of bummed.

3:08And I wanted to figure out about how to sort of bridge that gap between material wealth and personal well-being. See, I brought that up to Michael this week, and he didn't believe me. But I said that rich people, we've never been richer, and rich people have never been more miserable as they are right now, because I think it's easier to compare yourself to others. It's easier to see that others have more than you. And I think just the fact that so many people have more material wealth now, it makes it harder to enjoy the fruits of your own labor. And Daniel, as a scientist, you should know that Ben was basing that observation on the White Lotus.

3:44As a White Lotus enthusiast myself, Ben is right and Michael's wrong. So So yeah, no, that's exactly right. If you think about, if we boiled down human existence into a one-year period, that 250 years ago was like December 31st late in the day. I mean, this was just a recent thing. For most of human history, you knew like 100 people, right? If you look at most animals, they can only kind of transact and do business with 100 of their species. We were the same way for a long time. You knew 50 or 100 people. Their lives all kind of looked like yours, and you didn't have much to compare your plight in life to.

4:30Well, now you can, with your phone, follow the person with the biggest bank account, the best abs, the best hair, the best life, and compare your life to theirs. and we don't think about wealth in absolute terms. We think about it in relative terms. And that's a big driver of this dissatisfaction. I wrote about that years ago, talking about like, oh, we have it so much better than our parents, our grandparents zoom out. People don't zoom out, they zoom in. And I wrote, you don't compare yourself to your ancestors, you compare yourself to your neighbors. Oh yeah, like the average home size in the US has tripled post-World War II.

5:10You ever look at a house from 1940? Like the average home size has tripled post-World War II and people feel poorer. Like people feel poorer than they did then. It's just the mechanism of comparison is much more advanced now. I spoke about this with Ben a couple of months ago. My father took me to the area that he grew up in. Now, my father grew up in an apartment with his – he was an only child. His parents had no money. I forget, I don't even think his mother, my grandma worked, but my grandfather worked at a liquor store and he worked, I think briefly as a tailor and even like no money, even up until in the seventies, he was pushing shopping carts at Publix down in Florida.

5:52So like real, really no money. And my dad shared a bunk bed with his grandfather, if you could imagine. And he didn't, and I asked him, I said, did you feel, did you feel poor? And he said, no, he had what he needed. He had his friends. They played baseball on the boardwalk, whatever. He got a pack of baseball cards whenever he could. And that type of life today would be just abject poverty. And not to say that life doesn't exist today for too many people, of course, but the fact that he grew up that way and he didn't feel poor is unbelievable considering that's not 11 generations ago. It's, you know, 50, 60, it's 60 years ago.

6:36Yeah. Oh, well, nothing's changed except the ability to compare and people's eyes have been opened to the disparity. Like in the book, you know, in the book, I talk about people at different income levels and who's the most satisfied. And your reference class is a better predictor of how wealthy you feel than the dollars you have in your bank. So how much money you have is less material than who you're comparing yourself to and how rich you feel. I think one of the reasons we wanted to talk to you, because it's in the book, but you talk about how like the Joneses aren't that happy and like chasing what they have is only going to make you miserable.

7:13But it's really, really hard to not look at what else, look at the house they have, look at the car they have, look at the life they have on social media. And then just like, okay, because like the typical financial advisor advice is just ignore the noise. But the noise is literally beating you over the head every day. It's impossible to ignore. So the question for most people is like, how do I deal with it, knowing that it's there and it's never going away? Yeah. So, you know, nature abhors a vacuum. You can't just ignore the noise, right? That's like overly simplistic. I think, you know, what you need, what psychologists call the replacement behavior.

7:48You need to fill it with something else. In the book, I talk about there's over 350 different studies that I draw on that talk about how the Joneses aren't that happy and that people who pursue goals of outward extravagance or sort of outward displays of wealth are miserable. But people who pursue wealth with an eye to personal growth, philanthropy or deepening relationships are the ones that are happy. So it's not like, you know, that we shouldn't care about money. It's just that we should benchmark our money to something that has the ability to sate our hunger for these things, which is things like making your own game sharper, investing in the people you love, doing good stuff with the people you love, and helping the world.

8:39I think a lot of behavioral stuff is like, it sounds good, but a lot of it is like hard to apply. But I think there's something that you can apply here. So who said comparison is a thief of joy? Somebody said that. Was that Mario? Is it Roosevelt or JP Morgan or who was it? I wasn't sure if it was Super Mario. I had Roosevelt. It's the name of one of my chapters. I should know this. I think it is. I think maybe it's Roosevelt. So it's interesting, Daniel. If you were to ask people, would you rather be a big fish in a small pond or a small fish in a big pond? I think people would say a small fish in a big pond.

9:17But it doesn't really make sense because if you are the poorest rich person in your rich neighborhood, that's not setting yourself up for success. Your kids are going to be comparing themselves and why don't they get this? It's going to drive you nuts. And so when you're considering where to plant your roots, not that you need to be a person who's like such an outlier that you're like in the wrong place and with people that look at you like, who is this asshole here? But it's probably much healthier to live in a modestly, even if you have money, middle, upper-class town than to live in the richest town where it's just everybody's knifing each other in the back.

9:54One of the biggest financial mistakes that I have ever made was moving from my hometown in North Alabama, which is profoundly middle-class, like the most sort of conservative middle-class place I've ever seen, frankly, to suburban, to like a wealthy suburb of Atlanta, which is probably one of the more blingy, flashier cities in America, the outward displays of wealth here, I mean, they have had a material negative impact on my happiness and the way that I spend, save and invest my money. When I look back honestly on my own financial decisions, you can be the king of Alabama with$100 ,000 a year salary, you're the king of Alabama.

10:38moving to a bigger pond was a material negative for me personally. And I think it's consistent with the research. It's so interesting when you see people, and I was about to say not to judge, but it's impossible not to judge. Come on, who am I kidding? When you see people whose car is, I don't know, a third of the cost of their house, a modest house to be generous, with a$100 ,000 plus car, a Range Rover or whatever, it's like, wow, I would love to know what's going on inside that person's brain, the conversations the spouses are having with one another. I would love to know what's going on inside their 401k and 529.

11:21What is that about, Daniel, when people just have these outward displays of wealth that are clearly living above their means? Well, so it's interesting. Outward displays of wealth are a signal to the world that you've made it, right? And so, I mean, I have a neighbor who lives in probably a$2 million house and has, no kidding,$3 million worth of cars in the driveway. Has eight or nine cars, you know, Maserati, Lamborghini, G-Wagon, on and on and on. Has eight or nine cars that have got a total$3 million. And look, they may be richer than creases. I have no idea about their financial situation.

12:05But it is fascinating to think that you'd have more invested in a depreciating, portable, visible asset than something like a home. And, you know, what's interesting, though, is you look at certain groups in the U.S. are more prone to outward displays of wealth than others because it's a symbol of having made it and having arrived. I think especially under groups that have been historically underrepresented or oppressed, it's a symbol of having made it. That part, I think anyone could fully understand, right? If you grew up in abject poverty and you want to demonstrate to the world, everyone could understand that mentality.

12:46But I'm not talking about those people. I'm talking about people that are just, I don't know if it's insecurity or I'm sure, I mean, obviously that's part of it, but it is bizarre. I guess the other side of this is people that have so much money that drive Honda Accords. Another sickness. Another sickness. Isn't money meant to be enjoyed? When I see a rich person driving a rich car, I don't judge at all. If you enjoy spending money on that and you can afford it, more power to you, that's what the money's for you. You can't take it with you. You're going to die. I think it's demonstrative of the way that money is a signaling mechanism.

13:21You think about the really wealthy person who drives the Honda Accord, that's every bit as much a vanity metric and every bit as much a vanity flex. Total flex. As the person driving the expensive supercar. I mean, it is just as intentional in what it is saying about them, but they get the benefit of getting to act righteous and pious about their decision. That's even worse. The rich people that wear the $15, what's that old watch? The Casio. Sure. Yeah. It's like, dude, come on. We know you're rich. You don't have to like flex shit us. Well, the weird behavioral thing is Michael and I always talk about how like the inability of most people to be content in their life is actually a good thing for society, but it's a bad thing for individuals.

14:11And it's maybe a good thing when you're younger and you're hungry and you need to strive to get better, but then it can hurt you when you get older and then nothing is ever enough. Just like the people who save their whole lives and then can't turn around and spend. So it's like, sometimes these things are good for you, but it's just too much of them or at a certain point in your life, they become a negative. And that's the hard part is like, when do you know how to flip the switch and turn it off? Absolutely. I mean, the US economy would be nothing without the hedonic treadmill. I mean, we depend on it.

14:42We depend on this to survive for sure. Daniel, I was talking to a client I don't know, four weeks ago, a concerned client, concerned is an understatement. And I just leaned back on that. I said, listen, at the end of the day, we're all sick maniacs and we're the richest country in the world. And for each of us, generally speaking, it's never enough. We're never satisfied. We always want more. And that just will and does show up in earnings per share. And while it might be sad at the individual level, to Ben's point, for all of us as stockholders in this country, it's a wonderful thing. Like that's the upside of the downside that we're never satisfied.

15:23Well, I think you have a good chapter in your book called like, I'll be happy when, and you say that's a trap. And I think that's the thing that people can learn over time is that when you hit these, you have these goalposts in mind. If I can just make$100 ,000, I'll be happy. If I can just get a million dollars in the bank, I'll be happy. And then you get those things and you realize, oh, there's literally no, there's no difference in me from one day to the next. And if I hit this goalpost, I think that is a good learning experience for people to have that, oh, this actually doesn't fill any holes in my life at all.

15:52And now I just, I'm pushing the number up and I'm moving the goalposts and it's completely changed now. Yeah, it's funny. There's all this advice about what you can do around the margins to make that better. But I have never personally found anything that works except to just to learn to enjoy the journey a little bit more, just to like savor every day a little bit more. because if I think about some of the biggest wins I've had in my life, I mean, I would tell you the most disappointing day of my life was the day that I got my PhD because I had built it up to such a level and I was the same asshole I was the day before.

16:29Like, you know, it's like you hit, you hit this metric in your life and you're just the same dummy that you were the day before. And, you know, you can do that with professional success or a million other things. I really do think it It just comes down to learning to enjoy every day and savor the journey, as trite as that is. We were speaking about this earlier in the show, and Ben and I spoke about it last week because Ben wrote a post on things that he doesn't spend money on. And people love talking shit and judging people for what they do and don't spend money on. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I got a lot of comments on that.

17:06Hey, listen, I agree with you on these three things, but you are so wrong on this one. and I, and you're right on this one. And it is, but that's the thing is that the spending is, is personal. That's like, I think sometimes material possessions get a bad rap in the personal finance community. Like I told Michael this like a month ago, I got a new sweater. And I tell you what, when I wore that sweater, it put me in a very good mood. And it was like, sometimes material possessions can make you happy, even though it's not going to fill a hole in your life. But I think you just have to figure out those areas of your life.

17:32Like what did you, what was the research say about spending for you in terms of like what actually moves the needle? Okay, so there's one thing that I think we know a lot about, like spending on experiences and things like that. I want to share a couple of things that I thought were interesting. One is spending in ways that are consistent with your personality actually brings happiness. So you can't see it here, but I've got a bunch of guitars up on this wall. I'm not great at guitar, but I'm someone who values creativity. I like practicing. I like music. So my guitars are much better than I am.

18:05So at guitar, but they still bring me a lot of happiness because they're, you know, I'm a hobbyist and it's consistent with how I want to be seen in the world for you. Maybe it's the sweater for someone else. Maybe it's the car, but spending in ways that help the world understand you and see you the way that you want to be seen. That actually buys a lot of happiness. The other thing is anything that deepens relationships. One of my favorite studies in the book talks about people who buy cars. On average, spending money on a car is one of the worst ways you could ever hope to buy happiness because they're big ticket items and we habituate to them very quickly, except for people who buy cars to join car clubs get an enormous and enduring spike in happiness because now you got some guys to hang with on Saturday.

19:00You got some people to go on little trips with. You can have people to talk with your hobby about. So people who buy a Porsche to flex on their neighbor are miserable. People who buy a Porsche to join the Porsche club of North Atlanta are quite happy. And it is an enormous gift and blessing in their lives. So those little tweaks matter a great deal. Is there such a thing? In fact, let me rephrase that because I know there's such a thing as too much money, where money becomes a liability, where it becomes a job. You need multiple people, a team to manage it. It becomes something that you can't hide oftentimes if it's a sale of the business.

19:41So what is the sweet spot? Did one of you guys write the article about five to$10 million net worth is. That was me. I was trying to figure out what is the right amount where it's not going to be too anxiety driven and it's still going to be enough. And yet that's the number I came up with based on like client interactions. Well, hold on. So I was talking to Chris about this yesterday. So we have one client, we have several clients who have a ton of money, but one in particular where this person was not, did not come from money, is not a material person whatsoever. Given the circumstances, I'm sure she would be thrilled to have one 20th of the amount.

20:14and Chris told me like, it's become a job for this person. And my God, that's not great. Speaking totally anecdotally, I couldn't remember you two are the same person in my head. I couldn't remember who I couldn't, I couldn't remember who wrote it. But when I read Ben's article, it was completely consistent with my own experience of that being sort of the sweet spot, because I feel like you get too, too far North of that. And you start to enter this sort of the stratosphere. You compare your reference class changes. You're comparing yourself now to really, really, really rich people. You have a new set of concerns.

20:52Because yeah, at some point, it becomes a part-time job to take care of it, to steward it, to manage it. I think that five to 10 million spot of net worth is really, really a sweet spot for letting it serve you without it becoming a master. That's, again, anecdotal. When you see the greed and the behavior of wealthy individuals, to me, it serves as a reminder that these aren't just rich assholes. These are people who made too much money. And I'm sure there are some people for which all the money in the world wasn't a problem, guessing they're an outlier. But this is what it is to human. You just get to a point where it's just not natural.

21:38It's too much. Yeah, I absolutely agree. And again, it changes your reference class because when you're in that 5 million, 6 million, 7 million, your reference class is more balanced. When you get too far north of that, you're comparing yourself to incredibly rich people who are living insane lives. And again, it shifts your lens on life. And I think for the negative in a lot of ways. And to say nothing of the people who are judging you, the people that used to be friends with you, the people that used to be able to hang out with you, who are like, oh, Mr. Fancy Pants. You have a chapter in your book about giving.

22:14And I think it's something in the finance industry that we probably don't talk enough about, whether it's charitable giving or spending on others. I think that's always the most interesting behavioral psychology research is that like people always, the studies always show that giving to others in some form, right? Whether it's time or money or charitable giving or whatever, actually gives you like a huge boost in terms of spending money. But it's something we really don't focus on at all. Like, I don't know how many advisors actually even talk about that. There's clients who focus on giving. But what did your research show on that end?

22:47Yeah, so a couple of things that I think are worth mentioning there. The first is that this is a very human thing. We observe this in children as young as two, that they have a pronounced uptick in happiness when they give, but it has to meet one condition. It has to be costly. And I think this is something for advisors to keep in mind with their clients. You know, when the kid gives, you know, when the kid's friend wants a candy bar and mom or dad gives them a second candy bar to give to the friends, that doesn't help. They don't feel better. They have to take their candy bar and break it in half and give of their own, you know, their own portion to that friend for them to feel better.

23:29And so I think when we as an industry are talking to people about how much to give, there's a very real sense we have to say, look, you got to give until you have to think about it a little bit. And I don't know that a lot of people are doing that. The other thing that I found in there is when you look at financial contentment, there are two best predictors of financial contentment. And there's one sort of practical reality, which is just how much money you have. But there's one, you know, call it soulful reality, which is how much money you are giving away. So what you find on average is that people are not financially contented unless they are both well off and generous.

24:11So you would see people at the 95th, 98th, 99th percentile for wealth who are not sharing of their substance. They don't feel rich And they get trapped in this sort of, you know, chasing their own tale of more, more, more. You know, the final thing that I'll say there is that, you know, to Michael's point about the insanity of writing a book, one of the things that I wanted to make very sure of with this book was that the lessons were enduring. Like I wanted this to be an evergreen book. And in every faith tradition, every philosophical tradition, in every corner of the world, there is some sort of maxim that the more you give away, the better off you'll be.

24:55And even though the math doesn't make sense, it just appears that there is really something to that. Even though, to Ben's point, when you ask people, will you get more out of spending this on yourself or spending it on others? People nine to one say, I'll be happier if I spend this on myself. That is definitely not the case. So this resonates with me a lot. I give to one charity regularly, and it's a pittance. Honestly, it's kind of embarrassing how little I give. But I do give here and there, but it's certainly not nearly as much as I should be. But I love, I love, love, love over tipping because I was in the hospitality business from the time I was 15 to like 22, whether it be a Valley Parker or a waiter or whatever, or a Cabana Boy, I always worked on tips.

25:42And so to me, it gives me massive satisfaction to be able to make somebody's day with a little bit more than they're used to getting. It's interesting. I was with Robin and my kids in Florida last week. last, I don't know, March, April, whatever. And there was a guy who sat down in a lounge chair by the beach and he gave the waiter or the server$100. And I said to my wife, that's fucking awesome. I love that. I want to do that. I should be doing that. And her take was interesting. She said, really? What an asshole. And I said, really? An asshole for giving somebody$100? And her observation, which I think she was actually spot on, is that he did it as soon as he sat down.