Britain's Most Evil Mum Poisoning Her Kids - Karen Teasdale Tells All

52:11you know she was really becoming so bad over those years you know um it got worse and worse and like I say even the lady across the road um she couldn't cope with me mom anymore she'd gone me mom had gone to her house and I was actually relieved when other people were seeing it and me mom had walked past her window and she wanted to be in she wanted to possess people she was obsessive you know and um she'd walked past this lady's window and she wanted to be in and the lady had said um oh i'm just making the bends to isabel and my mom was angry she couldn't stand anyone being happy and the lady said i heard your mom walk past me window when i wouldn't let her in, she says and she said, happy fucking families.

53:06She says in the next morning when I went out to my car to take my children to school, there was your mother brushing glass under my car tyres and she knew what time I left with my children. Why did your dad not leave her? I believe my dad stayed initially because of us I think he knew she was such a manipulative woman he would never see us again in his life he knew what he was up against he knew she you know she would even say that you'll never see these kids again she he knew he would never see us again and I believe because she abused him that long she broke him down so much he was a broken down man as well and he was baffled I can remember going in one day and he was crying in the bedroom and he said Karen your mom's mentally ill and I said dad my mom's been mentally ill all my life and I just cried with him and cuddled him in

54:22yeah evil bastard like it's it's mad like when that this stuff sort of exists you know like how people go through it daily torture except out stockholm syndrome your brother was ever violent towards you because in your book you says your brother was the exact same with your mother yes extremely violent um i think from being youngsters you know um me trying to process everything and my whole life and the constant abuse like i say i don't mean this horrible but when my mother died i felt relief i felt grief for the life i'd lost i felt grief for the mother I would never have, but I felt relief. And I would never be in that position again in my life with my mom.

55:19And I couldn't cope any longer, but my brother, basically from me being very young, was, I think she worked through him. At ZocDoc, we know you care about your health. You wouldn't do that early morning cardio if you didn't. So the fact that your annual physical is overdue just shows how hard it can be to get seen by a doctor. Sorry, that doctor's not a network. Press one for more options. You've reached us outside normal business hours. The next availability is in three months. But ZocDoc makes finding the right doctor easy. Download the app and search by specialty, insurance, and availability.

55:56Read real patient reviews, then book instantly. ZocDoc, ready to be seen? Hello? Look what TJ Maxx dragged in. The Devil Wears Prada 2 is now streaming on Disney Plus and Hulu. We are digital. We are downloadable. We are streamable. The fashion event of the year is certified fresh. Pull yourself together. We have work to do. Critics say it's smart and witty and the perfect sequel. That's all. Get runway ready for The Devil Wears Prada 2 on Disney Plus and Hulu. Rated PG-13. This episode is brought to you by ChatGPT. Hey, it's Bill Simmons from the Bill Simmons Podcast. Have you guys heard about ChatGPT work?

56:39It's the new way to use ChatGPT for bigger multi-step projects. And when you need more than just answers, give ChatGPT work access to your apps and files, and it can create real work documents like spreadsheets, slides, and structured reports. Get started at ChatGPT.com by selecting work mode available on Plus and Pro plans. And she put the crown on his head and she would order him to hit me. And I believe she was ordering him to hit me dad as well. And she was certainly creating scenarios between me dad and me brother. She would tell me, brother, your father doesn't love you. He only loves her, which was fucking bullshit.

57:21Excuse me language. But it was, you know, me dad did love both of us. He really did. He was a good man, me dad, actually. Might have been authoritarian a bit, but that's as bad as it got. He had a good heart. He was a poet. he was a very very good port he works in oxford university i know he was a classical port but yes he did and i believe that he won praise from me mom by doing some of these things and i think my brother had time to reflect and when i saw my brother before he died he admitted to me he didn't confess when he was arrested nobody confessed they said that my dad had fallen but I knew in my heart my dad hadn't fallen I knew in my heart I knew because

58:26when me and my mum went to the hospital because she came with us at that point Thank you.

58:37My mum leaned over the bed and she said, Nobody hit you daddy, nobody hit you. And she was trying to make sure my dad didn't breathe a word. And the nurse beside on the next bed, who was meeting the next bed, she looked shocked. She looked up like that. And my mum was asked to leave because my dad started howling. he couldn't speak I didn't recognise my dad he couldn't speak he was all oxygen masks and white hats and everything and I didn't really think I didn't want to believe that was my dad but I knew because

59:20a while later when he was moved to another hospital he got a hold of me two fingers like that and I knew that day he believed he was going to die and he said need to know need to know and I said what dad and he said I need you to know he didn't see it as clear as that but I knew what he was saying and I went dad I went what dad he went two two two I went are you telling me it was both of them you went in cahoots

59:59so I think I know me dad me man was the biggest liar he'd meet in your life but me father was an honest truthful man so what happened with your dad why would they give him brain damage what was the purpose of it well me brother confessed to me before he died that he tried what he said was I tried to murder them for what they did to us and I said it wasn't me dad and he said it just looked like that and he said I've been an evil bastard he says I hate them but I never hated you and I said Brian me dad did love you me mam turned my brother against my dad. So how did they try and kill your dad? What did they try and do?

1:01:00My dad was brain injured. He'd been smashed across the head with a walking stick. Where? In his own home. And there was no evidence of it being your brother or your mum? Well, my... Where were they? Were they in the house when it happened? My brother and my mum were the only two people in the house, but my mum had left and went to buy fish and chips and then went to her friend's house. And then she had said to her friend, what will I say, what will I say? And I got told that I'd have laid a deed, obviously. And my brother was arrested. And then when my dad was rushed to hospital, my mum was later arrested as well.

1:01:48and they both said he fell. But I knew in my heart my father had not fallen. But when the CID come and they wanted to question me about what I thought had gone on, my brain was all over the place. I knew that it was my brother because he'd been being violent with my mum and dad for a long time. But I knew that it also could have been either of them And my head was all over the place, you know But my brother actually

1:02:34He actually asked us if I wanted to know what my dad's last words were

1:02:42What were they?

1:02:47Me brother was called Brian the same as me dad. And he said, Oh, Brian. And then me brother laughed.

1:03:03It was the worst pain I've felt in me life.

1:03:11What about if you were your brother? Was there any sort of physical abuse and mental abuse? Yes, psychological abuse, emotional, everything. What are you thinking then? What age were you when this happened to your dad?

1:03:28I was in 2011. It was Halloween, 2011.

1:03:36How old are you now? I'm 60. Yeah, so 46. Yeah. How old was your dad? 79 years old why wait till he's an old man aye exactly that's right like if there was maybe your brother is older and it's not that I'm sticking up from but you know but you don't know what your dad maybe put him through or anything but why wait till he's an old man exactly why not address it in his 40s that's right like 50s it's still old but if you've still got any of those sort of issues like did your brother ever say that anything went on between him and your dad? Oh right, no, not at all not one little bit, 100 % because your brother was your mum's favourite, your dad maybe your favourite but maybe the roles were sort of reversed maybe there was more to it because why would you do that to a 79 year old?

1:04:31Oh right, I see what you mean like if there was some sort of sexual abuse there's no age off limits, like if he's 79, it doesn't fucking matter if you've done something sinister to a kid you know but yeah i just think why why a 79 year old why why take a liberty like that exactly that was your dad was a good guy he was a good guy and i think me basically because i could never excuse what my brother's done either never ever in a million years you know never um but basically I think my brother had just I think he just flipped and he had said he was going to murder them for a long time he'd even rang the police himself and said I'm going to murder me mom and dad and the police has gone to the house and checked for any weapons and there was none there was no weapons apart from everything that was in the house the walking stick and the hammers me mom was sleeping with a hammer under her pillow in the end you know me mom me brother and me mom it was like two pieces of electric wire touching and the the the the what fighting to that degree me poor dad he was actually very humble he would sit outside on his on his little stool and recite his poetry to pass us by you know and in a nutshell i just couldn't get my head around it you know because my brother would mostly say a lot of the time that he was going to murder my mother when it was my father I got the shock of my life never in a million years would I have ever expected him to try to murder my dad prior to my dad being found brain injured in the house at home where it was only me mom and brother present

1:06:29me brother had tried to well I believe murder them before that because he'd left the gas on in the house ready for them coming in and they were both smokers and it was a friend of theirs well it was me uncle Brett again actually he'd gone in the house first and I don't know how but But it was just, you know, he turned up at the house exactly the same time as me mom and dad. And he said, I can't believe it. We've gone in. He says, just as well I went in first. He went the whole house is stinking of gas. And he left all of the gas on ready for me mom and dad walking in the house. So he was intent on murdering them.

1:07:13And like I say, when it was me dad. Would you have ever met au Dieu? I was frightened of him by this point because over the years he became like that, over the years, you know, it wasn't always like that. He was quite sensitive, yes, he had been given reward for being abusive and violent with me as a child. my mum would even say to him when I was young you know I say to me you know what you're gonna get don't you and I would say yes and she would ring him he was 19 and married and I was only 13 and she would get him to come up from his marital home to beat me in the house you know and then she would stand and watch and smirk she ordered him to do that she created him to become that creature you know and if I was going to go out for example they would get a hold of us and throw us in a pond a greasy slimy pond you know um but and what age did your brother leave the house leave home properly um I think I believe he was 19 when he got married was that more more abuse for you because he wasn't around?

1:08:40Yes, I thought it would get easier but it didn't, it got worse because my man became insanely possessive, you know and there was only me to get it then as well because she did abuse him as well, you know I mean even when he came back from London he was asleep on the floor and she poured boiling hot water on his back to burn him for nothing what age did you get your first boyfriend

1:09:12um i was probably about 16 did your mum know yeah what did you do i got belted you know um i've told you to keep away from boys basically you know um and i can remember some girls putting makeup on us and I got wrong for even that you know I wasn't allowed to do that we're really kept like children basically not being allowed to grow and develop becoming you know it was do as she says. And what was her connection with gangsters and stuff you know a lot of the criminal underworld how so? Well she was in the jewellery business and things like that there was quite a few people she met on that scene you know um and then I'd met a lad when I was about 17 um and he used to hide in the airing cupboard I'd moved back home um and then I met a man 17 the one who used to hide in the airing cupboard he was like just hated the atmosphere she brought um she was ordering him about and bullying him and this and the other and then I met a guy when I was 19 he was 17 years my senior and um my mom liked to be around gangsters you know wheeling and dealing and things like that anything she could my mom didn't have any feeling for anything our only love was money only love nothing else no you know she would appear that way and she would give that impression but that was the act and did she have any other men any other boyfriends or any bits on the side or anything she did actually yeah she did

1:11:09she loved men that must have been the only thing she loved the fucking nutcase yeah yeah she didn't love them genuinely she was just obsessed I think you know using them obsessed, you know, and anything she couldn't have, she wanted, you know. She actually followed the bank manager home one day, and he had to stop his car and say, you know, will you stop following me home, you know, it was like, whoa, I'm going to have him. Was that maybe to rob him as well, though? To maybe try and get... You would never know with her. To try and get her nun to then... Like, as much as she's psychotic in a fucking nutcase, there's still a lot of scheming behind her madness especially if she loved money her in would have probably been so just this man find out his ins and his outs the codes and everything and then rob the bastard yeah probably she would she'd stop at nothing you know what?

1:12:10that's not in the book so she's robbed someone her own mother yeah but we can speak about whatever you want it's alright I don't want to yeah you don't want to mention that of her relatives yeah yeah we can edit that anyway but so was she very in depth of her scheming where she would have robbed anyone who should have done anything oh I think basically you know she would even make a joke of everything and say you know how many beans make five don't you and I would say how many young innocent she'd say two in each hand and one up your arse always keep one that they don't see you know that was her But I would laugh She was actually quite humorous at times as well And you would think You know, it was like And then she'd turn and you'd think What have I done?

1:12:59What have I done? You know, you couldn't understand it She was a hard, hard woman Very, very hard, you know Do you think she ever killed anyone? Hmm I don't really know the answer to that question But I know she's capable of it because even in the book even the photo here in the front of the book there's like um i watched a movie called monster did you really um charlene charlene ferron and the woman used to be a prostitute she used to sleep with the men but then after that she used to kill them all but they've got the same sort of eyes dead behind their eyes you know right and um she eventually believed her own hype and believed what she was doing is because she was abused as a kid so it gave her the right to kill other people yeah mad it's a mad movie um and she's done many interviews that one when she ended up getting a death penalty did she yeah but it's the same sort of eyes like dead but crazy they were dead yes i noticed that about me mom as well you know i mean this woman went to church you know and i was told god would never love me because i whistled i was convinced God didn't love me because I whistled.

1:14:19This was from being very, very little, you know, maybe four or five years old. She would go to church and confess. And I would say, ma 'am, you know, you're not meant to go to church and be nasty when you come out, you know. And she would say, shut your fucking mouth, you know. And she just basically, she was a righteous, a proper hypocrite, really, you know. And she would say things like, the Lord helps those who help them fucking selves. You know, she had an answer for everything. My dad called her the Queen of Retort, basically, you know. What was she going to church for? Have her fucking sins forgiven.

1:14:57Excuse me language, but in her eyes, that was it. She had her sins forgiven. Yeah, that's it. And then she'd come out and do the exact same thing, you know. It was like, what? Did she ever tell you she loved you? She told us she loved us every day. Did she? She did. every day she told me she loved me sometimes several times a day and i said to her mom how can you love me when you do things to as you do you're nasty all the time and she used to say i can't help it i still love you and that was the trauma bond you see i developed a trauma bond with my psychopathic mother from being a baby. I didn't have a choice.

1:15:43But it's sad that as well if someone's mind goes, they know it's went, but they're just not in control. Do you think she had that as well? I know you say she didn't have any empathy, but do you believe that she really knew that she was unwell herself, or was she just total in denial? I think she... It was too hard to understand her because at the same time I did say to her mom why do you do this to me why do you hurt me why did you treat me quite differently to my brother because she hurt me more and more and more all of the time I was the main victim um and she turned around and said you know I said if you didn't want me why didn't you just put us in a K and she said who the fuck would want you basically I think I think I think I'm laughing because it's fucked up it is and and and I said well you know basically she she wanted to hurt so much she would make an excuse for it so when she said she she couldn't help it I thought that was just an excuse for doing it you know she tried to drive us into a bus one day and I thought fuck she's gonna kill us you know and I rang me dad because I said mom you better stop you better stop you better stop you know well this far off the bus and she loved instilling fear you know and I rang me dad and I said dad I'm really sorry about this I went but honestly I said I've had to get a hold of me mom in the car and stop her when she nearly got us into a bus, you know, and he said, oh, don't worry, Petty, went, that's a fucking party piece, she does the same with me, you know, she was something else.

1:17:38What was it like leaving the house for the first time when you moved out? Was that difficult to get away from her? Um, well, it was difficult, but it was necessary and it was a relief to get away from her any time. I mean, I was only 15 and I would sleep in the woods without a tent in a sleeping bag or without the sleeping bag just to be sleeping out of my home so that I wasn't in her presence. Why did the social workers not help you? Surely there must have been signs there that she was a nutcase. No because we were indoctrinated not to say a single word. But surely they must be trained as well.

1:18:16I think it's more I think they're more trained now to see telltale signs that kids are going to lie. I think back then no one was asked. That's right and social workers weren't involved with me at all in my life until about six years before my dad was brain injured. We were completely controlled and owned by her. See, when your son was found with a holding heart, could that have been with the stuff that she was poisoning you with all those years? No, I think it was just how he was born. Just a congenital birth defect, I believe. Just one of those things? Yeah, just one of those things. How was it?

1:18:52because I know you were still in her life, a big part of your own life and her life. You were in her life right up until she took her last breath. But what was it like when you had your son for the first time? Was it twins you have? I've got twin boys, yes. Stephen and Christopher, I've got to say, I absolutely love them. They're brilliant. And they are the reason I'm still here today. Were you ever worried that you could have ended up like her? Never. I used to say consciously as a kid, I must have been so conscious of it, of how she was from being little. I used to say, I'll never be like you.

1:19:27I'll never be like you. I would never, I never want to be. You know, children admire their parents normally and say, I want to be like me mum or me dad. And my sentence was, on the contrary, my sentence was, I never want to be like my mum when I grow up. And not knowing the depth and how sinister she was, you know. Were you nervous taking your son around her, your twins around her and why would you take them around her? Yeah, well that's it I heard I wouldn't, you know the twins went over a couple of times and basically I couldn't leave my twins among that they weren't brought up like that you know and I was very conscious of how violent she was as well you know so no I wouldn't leave them with her I would be there at the same time of course you know I saw a lot of what went on but if it went up I was out the door how did she treat your your sons she treated her grandkids better than anyone yeah she wanted a peer-to-peer like the loving grandmother you know and um even my brother said be careful mind she's after your kids and I knew what he meant by that because how she had controlled us she was trying to say to my children um you know take over my position as mother and she was trying to win them over into gaining the trust in her but by this time I was developing the ability to see through her little bits at a time very gradual but never to let her be that influencing person with my two sons so when the social workers came to the house and said yeah ma 'am's saying that she looks after they're your boys, you know?

1:21:19And I said, no, no, not a chance. No, she does not. But I had horrendous anxiety because I thought, my God, are they going to believe her? Are they going to believe me? You know, and she would be so convincing. I was afraid. And I was a total nervous wreck, thinking, what is my mum saying, you know? Possibly turn your sons against you and your sons move in with her? she wanted to be the carer no matter what, she needed to be the saviour, but I was developing the ability to not let her, you know, I was determined never to let her have that control over my two sons. So you're still sort of oblivious to it all.

1:22:05You know that she's fucking lost her nut, but you're still going back for more punishment. You're still kind of going back for more abuse mentally and psychologically like there's still and that's again with the trauma bonding and the Stockholm syndrome and all these kind of views but when did obviously you've met Kenny Kenny just had a heart transplant recently he's fucking lost his toes like it's it's non-stop but it's when it isn't when you met Kenny that he started looking into things differently was obviously as a man as well who's not in that circle you've got telltale signs you know, when you walk into a room, well I do personally, you do know who's fucking real and who's not and it's just fucking right, you're something just not quite right there I would.

1:22:53But these people they're very, like you say, they're very clever because what they do is turn people against the ones who are pointing them out, you know. That's right That's right. That comes with years of just interviewing people and speaking to people. You know, yes, that's right. Enough understanding but when you start calling them out for their bullshit it's the the stuff that they say against the people who speak out against them and it's the worst of the worst so that's why a lot of people go back into their shell that's why a lot of people hide because they think fuck that i'm not going there because they'll do whatever they can to try and cover their tracks when did like you started really asking the questions though like what age did you start thinking like i've been poisoned i've been beaten all my life i've been abused all my life my brother's turned against me like when did you really start to dig deep i think i started i think i really only began to recover after she died because she was no longer in my head so i wasn't getting the 50 phone calls a day i wasn't getting her views her opinions her reasons her excuses and the social workers had said the the term munchausen by proxy and i didn't want to believe that of my mother ever but they also said she was an extremely complex picture and I believe that although I was putting things together bit by bit like for example when my brother said you know you better fucking listen young and she's coming over to poison Kenny I was like fucking hell what's going on with her you know how dare she even do that you know I couldn't there's not a chance that anything else could be what she was you know I had the diagnosis and I realized and I thought my god they were right and I didn't want to believe them but Kenny had obviously helped as well because he was a lot more streetwise than me because I was this indoctrinated person who she'd had control of all of my life and I wasn't streetwise I didn't it's you know if you're not a thief you're not going to think like a thief do you know what I mean and I was really I'm I feel embarrassed that I was so badly indoctrinated but I knew nothing else if you live with the wolves you'll act like the wolves you're thinking you know you're you're in that situation and that it was a very tight-knitted family unit and none of us could see outside of it but nor could the social workers for six years Yeah I don't think it's anything to be embarrassed about Especially someone could be in your grasp Just after a couple of weeks or a couple of phone calls Never mind years and years you know 10, 20, 30, 40 years of abuse you know Like people can be brainwashed instantly By a conversation never mind years and years of torment That's right and when me dad was brain injured I mean I could never forgive it in a million years because my dad was he was my hero you know he really was and I believe I believe he stayed to protect me mother from me brother and I believe that he didn't really understand the extent of what he was living with with me mam you know the rose-colored spectacles the lot but I knew she could not stop hurting not putting two and two together and realize that you know these were all obsessions but understanding that full personality lots of obsessions and in a nutshell I said to the social workers watch her mind watch her I went she's got to hurt no matter what she's got to and they allowed her to go to visit my dad in the brain injury unit and she got caught by the nurses and even though my dad was in his wheelchair she had fisted him in the face and one nurse said she had fisted him about six times till he was pouring of blood in his wheelchair brain injured and she still had that need to hurt and when I went to what and then I said listen when are you going to actually wake up and listen to us she's got to hurt no matter what you know you've got to take it in and they said I'm sorry she'll never ever be allowed to be on her own within the same vicinity you know I mean they must have been giving us some privacy with them with it being his wife and they never allowed that again and my mom had a supervisor and I went up to the brain injury unit and Kenny was parking the call and I was standing there and there was like an archway and my mum was sitting on the seat with her supervisor because they wouldn't let her go on her own anymore after catching her hitting him and basically the supervisor went oh you look like an angel standing there because I was under a lovely arch with flowers you know and me mam went oh my beautiful daughter that's a posh that's a pretentious voice you know that came out quite often when she was wanting to con somebody and she came over to us and whilst kenny was parting the call kenny was walking up me mam put her arms around us and thinking nobody would hear she cuddled me in and she went I've got to hurt somebody I was actually fucking terrified of me own mother I was terrified of her and I jumped back and it was that hot breath in me ear and I thought my god I'm literally shaken I mean me brother actually believed she was possessed and I think I was there at that point you know and I was thinking my god and Kenny went what the fuck did she say to you and I told him what she'd said and he went what you're doing and I was supposed to be seeing me dad I went I'll have to go I'll have to go I'll have to go I was a total nervous wreck and she went come and come and sit here because the supervisor went come come back Isabel the supervisor knew that she'd said something which had alarmed me you could see by my face obviously I'm jumping out the way of my own mother and my mum the forever actress she went come on sit here and I went no and I just couldn't even speak you know and Kenny like I say Kenny said what the fuck did you and I went get us away you're not going to see your dad I went I'll have to come tomorrow and I went home and the penny dropped but you know what James being very honest I'd heard it from the horse's mouth and when you hear it from the horse's mouth it means so much more and that was my acceptance the same as when my brother said I tried to murder them for what they did to us prior to that he had maintained

1:30:19And the idea that me father had fallen, he wouldn't admit it, nor would me mother. And in me heart, I needed to hear it from him. Even though I knew in me heart, I needed to hear it from him. Did your mum drink? Take tablets? No, I wish she did drink. Might have cheered her up. Did you ever think about putting some fucking whiskey in her soup? Yes. I wouldn't cheer the bitch up Aye Aye that's it No she Did you ever Sorry for She did That's alright It's alright She was something else Seriously I get through shit As sometimes Aye so do I Jane's a serious I had to have a sense of humour As well you know What is it Is it facetious I think making a joke No it's alright I don't think No no don't apologize Did you ever think about Killing her Or were you just so fragile by it?

1:31:17No, no, I wouldn't ever kill anyone. But I can remember in the hospital, I wouldn't do it, but in the hospital when she leaned over my dad's bed and she said, nobody hit you, daddy, nobody hit you. And she was ordered out and I had to go out of the same door. I can remember feeling very tempted when there was a set of stairs there and I thought, no, Karen, don't, don't, don't. Just keep your hands to yourself. She is not worth it, you know. It was horrendous, you know, because that was my dad and she, he was howling, you know. Did you ever get closure on who done that to your dad? Did anybody ever say?

1:32:06Did your brother admit it? Yes, yes, that's what I... On his deathbed? He admitted on his deathbed? Well, not on his deathbed. he was actually, well I mean he'd been given a month to live, well he'd been given three months to live and he only had a month left to live when I saw him and basically he admitted to me that it was him you know, but like I say I hadn't seen him. Did your dad ever say it was your brother? I know he held your fingers and says the two of them were working together but... I think my dad I thought that they were in cahoots because they'd both been there and he was very much like these bastards have done this to me.

1:32:48That's what I believe my dad will have thought. So your dad didn't see anybody doing it? Oh, my dad, yeah, my dad will have seen it. But he never told you who it was? He just said in cahoots. But when you... Could it have been your mum that done it though? No, no, no, definitely not. Definitely not. I mean, I did think at the time, you know my head was a shed and it was like what on earth you know but I knew in my heart it was my brother because he was threatening to kill them he was always violent he was beating my dad up on several occasions and my mom was antagonizing that and creating that kind of situation and you know it was really really bad in that house my mother was sleeping with a hammer under a pillow but no I knew it was my brother we went to a meeting at the hospital as well after my dad was brain injured and

1:33:50my brother came in to the meeting with my mum and I went in with Kenny and basically in that meeting And my brother came in and he was pissed and he had a recorder. And he came in and he put the recorder on the table like that. And he went, I'm Brian. I've had 365 bottles of whiskey this year and I'm going to look after me, Daddy. And everybody looked at him and the nurse directly opposite me. She couldn't even lift her head up You know she was going like that You could tell she was actually laughing I think they were shocked And

1:34:44Me mum said to me brother Pack it in Or I'll cave your fucking head in And Me brother turned me round and he went she did me daddy and she went I never did your fucking daddy you did your daddy and the social worker put it in and she said Isabel you weren't there she says you shut your fucking mouth I was there she says and I saw everything it was a tiny little tap and Kenny said some tap and that was it I didn't know where to go but yeah I knew it was my brother who did it Yeah, it's all a bit confusing that, isn't it? It's a good or evil, but what happened with the relationship with your brother after that then?

1:35:34With me? Yeah, and your brother. Well, I became my dad's voice and I wasn't going to let my dad down. I wasn't going to desert him. I knew what had gone on. I knew those two were there. And basically, I never saw my brother for 10 years. you know what made you go back and see her when i was dying i actually had a dream um i don't even know how you know i i dreamt that me mom and dad came to us in me dream and i dreamt mom and dad were talking to us me mom came into me dream first and she said um you've got to go and see brian and i was just in me dream i was just sitting staring and I'd have, you know, and then my dad came to us in my dream as well, and he said, you must go, he's going to die soon, and I knew where he was, and I went over, and he came out, and I barely recognized him, and he was living in a flat in Newcastle, and the door was missing off the house and it was flat on the stairs he was living he had severe alcoholic alcoholic you know and the door hadn't been on for over a year the neighbors said and I seen him and I said are you all right because I was trying to weigh up which way I mean I kept my distance because I was still afraid of him in case anything went wrong you know and he went to attackers or anything like that um and he said I've been given three months to live but I wasn't quite sure whether to believe him or not because I think it was something he'd said regularly because he believed he was dying all of the time with him being around my mom and my mom saying he was dying all of the you know it was very very complex so he had he did have bad mental health as well and um I said he said he's been given three months to live and I went how long were you how long ago were you told that and he said two months ago and sure enough he lived the month.

1:38:00How was that relationship for that month?

1:38:14it was really hard because I was facing the man who tried to kill my father and my father was passed away by that time um because I would never have gone near you know because if I saw my brother I couldn't see my dad obviously. He didn't choose? Social workers insisted that if I had anything to do with Brian I wouldn't be allowed to see my dad so I didn't see him at all but I wouldn't have seen him anyway because I was so devastated at what I'd done. Why social workers involved why not coppers? Um social workers and the police were involved but nobody was charged because my dad was brain injured and he couldn't go into court.

1:39:01How was his memory after that? My dad's memory yeah um he was in a very very very bad way it took a good couple of years before he could manage like one or two words basically or he might you know that bad oh hi very bad yeah very very bad you know before before he was brain injured he was an eloquent speaker eloquent in at the english language, he was offered a professorship down in Wales, he was a very intelligent man. You said he was a poet? A poet, yeah, yeah, he wrote poetry. And he was a very sensitive, feeling man as well, very emotional. But after that he wasn't able to, he couldn't have been cross-examined in the courtroom to give evidence because the brain injury was so severe and in a nutshell my dad I think obviously my dad was devastated you know I mean I used to say to him dad I love you so much and he wanted us I know he wanted to say I love you as well but instead of saying I love you a lot or I love you or whatever he used to say very and I knew that meant he loved me very much and the last month then so obviously you're going to have that rage and bitterness that you're your mum and brother who's done that to your father but what was it like the last month could you try and forgive your brother because as much as he's evil as well it's still difficult because you've seen the life that he was raised in you know you've seen who he's become like the brain will program you into anything around your surroundings you know and people who become evil they weren't born evil yeah i know i think being honest if i was to try and sum it up i believe me mom was born evil but i don't believe me brother was i believe that me brother had more feeling than me mom because i don't believe me mom had the ability to feel any empathy i believe my mother was the mother that couldn't love and I mean that sincerely and I I think my brother regretted it because my brother I said to him he came outside and I I found it hard to look at him because he looked so thin and I knew he was mentally unreachable very very very um pale and affected affected by everything of course he was an alcoholic and had been for a long time um and he actually thought I was somebody else until he saw me face and he got a shock because I believe he thought he would never see us again and I don't think he would have done if my dad hadn't come to us in my dream if my mom had said it I wouldn't have went but it was my father who came to us in my dream and because it was my dad I woke Kenny up and I said I'm gonna I'm gonna go and see him because my dad came and

1:42:30I said Brian I'm writing the book and he said make sure you tell it all he says I know I have a cross to be and I know what I've done but make sure you tell it all so I think he wanted me to give some late to our lives and I think he'd had time to reflect my mom would never have reflected she would never have looked at herself or took any accountability ever that was not in her at all and I felt I said to him I couldn't have seen you anyway I know I've been not seeing you for a lot of years but I couldn't have seen you anyway otherwise I wasn't allowed to see my dad now me dad had to come first I needed to be me father's voice and he went that's all right he went you know I understand he went but he says she put the fucking tablets in the glass and me potato you know and he remembered that for 10 years for 10 years he'd held on to tell us again and I said I know I know what you're doing to us

1:43:56and I said me dad was paralysed as well he wasn't just brain injured but he was paralysed and me brother went like that and I know it hurt and I knew he felt something and you know what as much as he tried to murder my dad

1:44:21I knew he felt something and that meant something to me I'm not forgiving him but I'm putting it into perspective but it's hard to forgive to when someone's tried to murder your dad believe me it's hard to face that person but I did and I faced him and I came away with the peace of knowing that he had admitted it to me and my sister and we both lived a lot of pain and suffering because of how our mother was

1:45:06it gave us some peace James it didn't take it away when was your mum diagnosed? the Munchausen by proxy yeah when I was 48 years old and then she was sectioned and taken away you know so who diagnosed her then how did she how did that come about the social workers they'd get in the team in I found the paperwork in the paperwork about a year and a half before my dad was found brain injured and there was notes there so they'd been looking into it a long time 40 years too fucking late though look at the damage it's been done yeah that's right so what happened when she got sexed she got put into a unit for people with complex mental health

1:46:05and basically me brother went in to see her in there and he got chased out because he was laughing at her being locked up he was pleased she was locked up I was probably starting laughing yeah he did and he was laughing and calling her an old bastard so he got made to leave you know and before he left he asked for some money for a bottle of whiskey you know and that was him to a tee but better than the devil you know so he was laughing again it's not that I'm sticking up for your brother but again like imagine your mother trying to poison you he's a bit older with the drugs and then seen a lot with your mum turning him against your dad and like it is sad to see two kids being brutally tortured and he's obviously paid the price for it by doing that because like you say he did feel as well which was important to make sure that he wasn't like your mum that's right you know I think there was a part of his but then again he fucking beat up at a 79 year old so there's not really any sympathy it's hard to balance it out I'm just trying to figure it out from all aspects and just try to give it a bigger picture yeah you know instead of it's just trying to give an understanding of the whole picture for people watching or listening you know it's not taking sides but yes I can understand why he started laughing.

1:47:39We've seen your mum, he begged to kill everyone. Yes. You know, and it's probably a sort of relief for him. But like you said, his mother and son were identical as well. So to be laughing as well shows you he's laughing at her misery. But on the other hand, I can see why he's laughing. Of course. And then still having the trauma bond himself, as he was leaving this place where my mum was sectioned, he said to the nurses you better look after her or I'll fucking kill you so he still had the trauma bond as well of wanting to you know what I mean it was very complex can you imagine what my brain was like as well did you visit your mum?

1:48:21no I was totally agoraphobic at the time I couldn't go there I was so so so affected by everything I didn't want to leave my house barely you know So what were you diagnosed with and end up? Well, I just, I had agoraphobia and still do, well, I mean, Charles Darwin had agoraphobia and he's travelled the world, but, you know, it's basically the amount of stress I was living under, basically. So what is that? You can't leave the house? It's supposed to be a fear of open spaces, so they say, but it's more like a panic disorder with me, basically, you know, and I have germphobia and complex PTSD, which you can imagine at the very least.

1:49:11It's only minor, man. I know. It's mad, but it's, is that what you then, a phobia of germs and all the other stuff, can't leave the house and spaces, but it's totally understandable. Yeah, but I mean, not just that, having a mother like that, you know, you're paranoid of everything. You think, what, you know, who can you trust if you can't trust your mother? I'm surprised fucking Kenny stopped by all those years, Kenny boys always. Aye, I know, so am I. So am I. He got more entertainment off me than he ever did in Franklin, do you know what I mean? He said he thought he'd met everyone being in there, you know.

1:49:49I mean, we make a joke. My dad chose the name of my book many years ago when I was younger. before he was brain injured I used to say with my mom being you know these outbursts of violence aggression and all you know her behavior was absolutely horrendous and so unmanageable and I said my dad you know one day I'll write a book on her um you know this was before all of this happened the brain injury and everything else and basically me dad was sitting on his little stool outside of the house and me mom had bent down to his ear and me dad was crying when he was telling us what had happened and she said I hate you in his ears I wish you would die that's what he said she was saying he was going why does this woman do this to me why is she treating me like this you know and he was baffled by it and me dad said and Roy came along the street and and she went oh hello Roy I'm just giving him a kiss he went Karen if you ever write a book call it Poison Kisses and I remembered that until I brought this book out you know but we had a standing joke at home when I met Kenny I said I'm gonna write a book you know at some point and yeah just speak Kenny yeah Kenny was saying you've got to write your book but I wasn't mentally well enough because my head was a shed you know and basically Kenny and I used to have a joke and I used to say should I call it saved by an arm drop doesn't anybody know your partner Kenny's been in the jail he's done a bit of porridge he did he knows everybody and like you were speaking off camera know we kenny like when you know criminals they're not as dangerous as these sort of oh definitely people like criminals are a bit deranged and they make a lot of mistakes again it's because their upbringing but when you go this far of being the scheming's kind of psychotic way that's a different level criminals will take each other out just for argument a bit of ego but the depths of the poison of a mind is it can it's it can destroy a whole fucking army you know oh absolutely and And when you have a mother who on an everyday basis wants to play with your mind, you'd be very lucky to come out of that.

1:52:26And believe me, I've been very lucky because when I first met Kenny, I couldn't even have my breathing pattern wasn't even correct. I used to sit like that and I was in a bad way, you know. I mean, she had a dog and my ex, I don't get on with him, but given me his due he came to the house and he went what the fuck the dog didn't even stand up it used to crawl across the floor and piss itself and he said what you doing to the dog and I said she's tried the dog like it she's tried us she she was constantly hitting the dog as well she needed to hurt she had an obsession to hurt she would stop at nothing you know and when I met Kenny I was 40 she came in the house and I knew by this point that I wasn't allowed a boyfriend or she would do something to split me up from that boyfriend so I had learned to not let her know and I had said to her don't come over later because I'm going to have an early night well I wasn't Kenny was coming around and she was wider than me believe me yeah that's the old telltale size anyway something says they've got their bed early yeah that's it and um in she came and she stood there and she went so what's going on here and i think that was one of the times i stood up to her and i went what the fuck's it gotta do with you, you know, and we had a beautiful glass window and I thought, should I?

1:54:09You know, but she walked away with her tail between her legs and me dad turned round and he went, good on you. You know, me dad wanted us to have a life. Yes, he did. He did. So what was it like standing up for her for the first time? It was great. Kenny sniggered as well. What were you going to say?

1:54:34Pardon? Oh yeah, and on another occasion We finished this What was it like sticking up for her? Sticking up to her for the first time? Oh it was brilliant Oh it was brilliant It was like yes You know I wanted to become a person And have a life I was an adult I was 40 years old and there she was believing she could still keep me in that place you know I mean had boyfriends but she'd managed to break every friendship and relationship I'd ever had in my life you know and she did it by creating scenarios or or saying that the boyfriend was doing this or that or the other I mean even my brother had a girlfriend as well she was she she she was really good with my brother and she was helping him financially and believing in his music and this, that and the other.

1:55:32You know, my mum would insult anybody and this woman had said to my mum, oh, Brian's doing really well, you know, his music's coming on great and I'm helping him. And she went, oh good, well if he makes it, you'll afford a facelift. Where did she get the Porsk accent from? She put it on. She put it on. You know, even when she had her own shop, her business, she would pop on a wig going to go into wholesales and call herself Angelique. Did you have that in awe that she was fucking around? No. He cried. He cried suspecting it. Yeah. What about Chrissie? Who's Chrissie? Oh, right, yeah. Well, you talk about...

1:56:19You know, when you were speaking to me earlier and you said you can walk in a room and you know who's being real with you or not, it's the same isn't it with an aura you get a good aura or you get a bad aura bad feeling bad energy from someone my mom's energy was horrific and i mean horrific when i met kenny he said you know he'd met people in the prison murderers rapists terrorists the lot and he said i've never met anyone as bad as your mom and especially her aura and I didn't feel offended because I knew he was right it was absolutely correct I totally agree she had a horrendous aura you know it was oozing from her but she could also change that and try and you know manipulate and come across nicey-nicey but I knew obviously when her tone was changing and this that and the other and And we were in the house one day and there was a guy came in and he was called Chrissy.

1:57:24He was a friend of ours. And basically, my mom had gone into my side door, into my kitchen. And Chrissy said, who the fuck's gone in the kitchen? And I said, why? And he went, who is it? I went, it's my mom. And he went, I've fucking sapped. And I went, what? He went, she's an... Energy vampire. Oh, right, twocker. I went, oh, right, twocker, what's that? He says, I'm absolutely drained. I'm going to have to go home and lie down. See, when she was in, see when she got sectioned, what were you thinking then? How were you feeling?

1:58:13I don't know what I thought. I think... I think I was just so shocked at everything that had gone on. So how long did you not see her for? Was there a period that you never seen her after your dad? Because you never seen your brother for 10 years. Yeah, me mum was sectioned. I can remember saying to the social workers, you've taken me mum away now. When she's this age, she's probably going to be dying soon. She should have been took away when I was little, really. you know so so like why now I couldn't understand how severe or how dangerous it was really um and basically they couldn't take that risk and I was in the process of being like processing everything you know not and I rang her every day but no I didn't say I didn't go over there I couldn't, I couldn't.

1:59:14When your mum was dying, it's in the book, I'm not going to give too much away, but you end up going and meeting your mum. What was that decision?

1:59:29I think I wanted to say goodbye. And I think I wanted...

1:59:38I think I wanted to be just who I am. And because I'm not like her, I think I wanted to give her my forgiveness before she went. and that was more about who I am rather than what she'd done or who she was because I would never get the chance again would I do you know what I mean and

2:00:12I suppose really it was my mother and I knew nothing else I just it's the mother I was given and the mother I wish I hadn't been given but I felt as if I needed to go because she was leaving the earth and I was never going to get the chance to see anything ever again Did you ever get any closure with her? did she ever apologise what did she say?

2:00:53I'm going to laugh because she had no emotion whatsoever and

2:01:03I was in the same room as her and she said sorry and that was it and that's how she said it as if she'd stood on the cat's tail there was no feeling there whatsoever whatsoever none at all in fact if I was going to sum my mother up in two sentences

2:01:27how she was when she was dying and she was lying in bed I remember the nurses ringing us and they had my mom on the telephone and they wanted to um for me to speak to her and me mam in front of people this is how she was I said hello mam you know I just want to tell you I love you before you go even though that was it was still hard, it was still me mother and she said in front of the nurses don't you ever reproach yourself Karen you've been a beautiful daughter and I thought well it's not me who has anything to reproach myself for but I listened and the nurses I could hear the nurses in the background and they went aww you know as you would a dying mother speaking to their daughter but my mother always for the audience she gave them what they wanted to hear and the next day I remember thinking I need to speak to her again she was nice and I lived to pray for that nice mother on an everyday basis and even at the end of her life I was still living to get that nice mother that we had so much wanted all of our lives and couldn't get.

2:03:15And I rang her the following day and by God, she never let us down. She was the mother I'd known, who I'd really known. And this time the nurses weren't listening. And I said, ma 'am, I love you. She went, I love you. Horribly like that. and I thought oh no the nurses aren't there she's going to be her self of true self you know the one they wouldn't see and nobody else would see and I said please ma 'am please ma 'am not now not now because I knew she only had days to live I said I'm doing me best meaning don't hurt us please don't hurt us before you go and she said Your best's never been good enough And she managed to hurt us before she went That sums my life up with my mother Do you think it would have been easier though That she acted like that before she died Because if she was being nice Do you think it could have been possibly more confusing for you?

2:04:22If you were wanting that nice mother Then maybe you got two, three days of it I think really in all honesty it helped us accept what she really was and that to me was if she could hurt us even on our deathbed then she's the one at fault and had the problems not me because I was the bigger person I forgave the person who'd hurt me all of my life How was it when she actually passed? Was it closure or was it sadness? But of both?

2:05:10It was both in the respect that I was sad because I'd never have the chance of having a mother who could love and we'd never be able to. When we were living it, we were constantly living with the hope that she wouldn't be like that and trying to placate her and change this that and the other about her but you can't change something what is in somebody what is innate innately part of them and that closure made me realize that was a part of her that was innate and I wasn't in control of any of it and it was relief because I was never going to have to suffer it ever again and I didn't have someone around me that was so nasty and abusive what was the idea behind the book because I know you always say you're going to write a book and your father gave you the name for the book but how was it putting the book together that bring back a lot of motion for you could you then get therapy with it with speaking out against it because a lot of people say when you write things down it can actually make you heal were you finding that process or was it a difficult process to do it was extremely difficult but it brought a lot of relief and I was determined to write it because I'd promised me dad I would write it and because the trauma bond was so strong as well between my mother and I I was holding on not wanting to speak out but then I thought to myself I've got to because I'll not be the only person that's being abused by their mother and it's something to put into the world to leave behind I'm 60 and it'll help other people I knew that would help other people as well as myself you know too late if I'm ever gone and the story's never going to be heard is it because there's only me that can tell the story why do you question why you were given those cards why that was your mother do you question why you were given a mother like that I did for many many many years um I lived with complete confusion not understanding what was wrong with her why she was like that and it wasn't until she was until the psychiatrist said you know the the brain's completely scarred and exactly the same place where she would process emotion and have empathy and yes of course I questioned that all of my life it was so consuming mentally to be living with a mother with an obsession to hurt and the Munchausen by proxy and all of the other parts of the obsessions and this and the other it was so you know you spent a lifetime placating somebody else you didn't have time to think of you know what should I do about it you're just so engrossed in it.

2:08:34Where did the scan the brain come from? How is that? Are you born with that? Does it happen through time? Like, was there any sort of details on how that would happen? Um, no, I was just told it was likely that she'd been like that all of her life. Because the scarring wasn't new. How's life now? A lot easier than that.

2:08:59Yeah, it's, um, do Do you know what, James? I actually appreciate every single day that I live. And I think I have grace and gratefulness because I really appreciate every single day because I'm lucky to be alive, you know. So you're just, you're grateful. After that experience, it wouldn't matter what I was to live, you know, nothing could be as bad as that. How was it when the book came out? Well I'm no good on computers so this guy said are you going to release it? Then I went yeah I think it's ready and I wanted to put a bit more in and a bit more in and I really should have filled four books I do plan on doing a sequel at some point but I don't know when and I was on with this guy Sean who's been really helpful and he's a lot younger than me you know and he's so good on computers and he's and I've just been on doing an audio version of the book as well and that should be ready soon and um he said when are you going to bring it out soon and I said yeah yeah I says maybe just one more sentence he went oh Karen I've pressed it I went press what he went I've pressed the button I went what and he went it's uploaded I went that was it and I went oh my goodness and I felt overwhelmed with every kind of emotion you can think of I felt like I was some form of betrayal to me mother and then I thought no I'm not because I'd been conditioned that much that you know that was still living with us but then I felt this big massive sense of freedom and it was like whoa I done it, it's up, it's out there it's off my shoulders, I don't have to carry it anymore it's not mine to carry anymore do you know what I mean?

2:11:04Good on you, listen, thank you for your courage and your bravery for coming on today Karen but for anybody that's watching, that's maybe stuck in that sort of nightmare, what advice would you have for them? I would say to anybody if a child's going through something and they're trying to reach out, listen to them I would say to anyone you know abuse comes in many forms mental physical emotional anything you know but most of all listen to the child because I think if the headmistress has listened to me or the other lady when I said you know I believe my mother's poisoning me I'm not a nasty person for everything in the world and never wanted to say anything bad about my mam that was my mam and what did he say james what if you have any messages what what would you say for people with enemy stuck in that life of misery what advice would you have for them anyone stuck in that life of misery you know you can survive and you will get through don't stay put in a relationship or whether it be with your mother or your father relative aunt uncle you know whatever you can get through it the trauma bond is something to learn about and if I can survive what I've survived so can you Can would you like to finish up on anything else?

2:12:43Don't know will you cut this bit out? What should I? No listen that's just what I'm saying just where can people buy your book? Em yeah I would like to finish off by saying thank you to my husband Kenny for coming to paint the kitchen and never going home em and also to me two sons they gave me the reason and the will to live and I would like to say thank you to you James for giving us this opportunity to come on here today and for anyone that wants to buy the book, the book's on Amazon it's called Poison Kisses by Karen Teasdale Karen, again thank you for your bravery keep up the amazing work and I look forward to seeing what you do for the future, thank you and God bless, thank you, thanks

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