Confessions of a Steroid Kingpin - Money - Power - Prison - Macauley Dodd Speaks Out

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0:33and boom we're on how are we how are you bro i'm good man i'm good i'm all right yeah senior documentary bbc yeah steroid empire you and your dad yeah smashing all around the world as always things always come crumbling down when you're trying to fly under the radar he's got heavy sentences between you's it was like 50 years between the whole kind of gang you've done was you've got seven years at the start which is a heavy sentence for class c but they were out to get you seen the documentary a very outspoken you and your dad a bit of lover's tiff kind of back and forth but how are you being a free man i'm good man it feels good yeah been a little bit now so you know just trying to crack on and be a good person and do good now yeah keep out of trouble keep my nose clean yeah that's the one that's the one before Before we get into all the nitty gritty bro, I always like to go back to the start with my guests, get more of a bit of understanding about you, with you Grutam, how it all began.

1:30Okay, yeah, so, yeah, so basically I'm just from a little place in North Wales called D-side. Little bit, you could say, do you know what, if you weren't from there, you'd think it's a bit of a shithole, a bit rough. It's alright now, it's kind of mellowed out and you know, there's not much fucking going on there. I was quite, do you know what, I was quite a good lad when I was younger. I wasn't about no trouble. I was mad football. Loved playing football. Had a good group of mates. And I was always quite well behaved. And then I moved to Spain when I was younger. Or the whole family. And then that's when things started going a bit tits up.

2:06Started getting in a bit of trouble. I lost all my hair I did. So I got alopecia. Which I think when I look back now from my view, had quite an effect on me and my behavior. 12, 13, moved back, started hanging around. My brother, his group of mates, they're all like four or five years older than me. They're up to no good, trouble, drugs, partying, fighting, you know, fucking stuff like back in the day. And then I've got involved with them and then things have just sort of started going tits up from there really. Did you go to school? No, I didn't. So I'd done Spanish school, but I was kept back a couple of years there.

2:50i was rebellion straight away uh just not just naughty little man just did you have to learn the language yeah i speak fluent spanish now yeah um i've got my mom she still lives over there my little sister they're still there and i'm me and my dad and my sister we moved back my brother stayed here and then yeah things things started taking a bit of a turn for the worst when i started hanging around with the older lot and not not attending school i got kicked out of school didn't do year 10 11 so i was just free to sort of do what i want my dad wasn't really at home my dad used to be a fisherman so he'd literally work flat out come home end up on the fucking piss or he loved the session at the time my dad like fucking just don't blame him do you know what i mean but so i was just sort of like left free to do what i wanted and yeah just from there really.

3:44Because steroids are obviously a big part of your story and I think you said you were younger you felt very thin all the older boys were quite strong you didn't know they were on steroids what age did you start taking steroids? My first my first job would have been around 14, 15 I reckon That's young Young man Yeah Yeah probably my only regret is fucking putting that in my body at such a young age Did you have alopecia before steroids? Yeah before beforehand yeah yeah but was that stress stress i think mate you know before before we moved to spain we had a really really good life i'd really family orientated it's just i was happy man i was content you know even when i look back now i knew you know the bigger pit i was all right and then when everything started fucking crumbling down family broke up moved back from here my mum's there my dad's there it's i don't think i could cope to be fair with the difference of life do you know what mean do you think it was their breakup that caused that no i think i think moving to spain caused it beforehand i'll play high level football good group of mates holidays or like just just a nice you know a nice life and then excuse me and then it was just took away sort of thing i don't think i was i don't think i was built for that sort of stress yeah what was it like then when you got diagnosed with alopecia shit man um especially being in a foreign country yeah you know fucking hell um got me in some trouble like bullies me rebelling you know just why me sort of thing anger against the world from a young age and is that where your anger came from i think so yeah i think my mom says that i was always pretty angry anyway but i can't remember i don't think i was i think it stemmed from that you know it it'd give me a reason to sort of hate the world sort of thing yeah and people and feel like a victim i did yeah yeah i did i felt i felt yeah very much so yeah was your dad angry i'd never really seen him much you know didn't really spend much time he'd come and watch me play 40 on a weekend and then other than that i was with my mum my brother i wasn't really what was he doing was partying and he was yeah just fucking shagging listen i reckon he was just just out doing his work and then on benders shagging brasses and that like fucking yeah my dad's like one of the lads well was one of the lads like so but it's the effects it has on your kids as well that broken home and every near enough every podcast it's like people come from the broken homes you tend to see the anger issues the frustration the rebellious hating the world it must have mass effects on people when their mom and dad split i think so yeah i think i think now i'm a lot older and wiser and i can look at things a bit different you sort of catch on to why and you know how and all these sort of things so i think i think a family breaking up is is a big thing in a child's life definitely yeah what steroids were you taking at 14 um from top of my mind probably a bit of test and decker yeah i had a massive head so would have been fucking decker yeah i reckon bit of debo probably most things to be fair i wasn't too shy of i wasn't too shy of putting anything in me really yeah my friends are used take i think it was d ball it was like little tablets yeah i think you took one a day two a day but by the end these they were only 17 18 they're taking like six seven eight a day yeah i mean it fucks with her kidneys and her heart and the liver like the effects of it then because as deckers that not for bulls trend trend is for cattle yeah for cattle for balls basically yeah i know yeah but the oral steroids are just as bad man they're they're no good they're toxic i think they take a big effect on your mind as well and everything like body wise quite a lot to be fair i'd imagine it would be more more people would want them now because men's testosterone is at an all-time low yeah well i was saying this to someone else we were talking and and i made a comment i'm not i can't remember what it was but it was to do it was to do with uh so like um testosterone replacement like therapy and a lot of people are getting prescribed it now it's it's quite a big thing where like you say it is it is the lowest it's been but obviously down to a lot of things which you could go into but yeah i think a lot of people need it now yeah i don't know too much about steroids i've never took them but my friends have and they used to talk about taking insulin and just mad stuff and i'm thinking wow and they do look the part and part of you thinks if I know if I went down that route I'm the addict mind I would be fucking 22 stone just everything I could take and it was just a slippery slope but my dad he used to train back in the day and all his friends were like Mr Scotland old mass bodybuilders he was a bouncer so a lot of the bouncers back then were all big fucking units something the majority are now but then he used to see the effects and he used to talk about their hair laws and heart attacks then that scared the shit out of me so i'm glad they kind of planted those seeds yeah or there was a good chance i could have went down that route like 18 19 20 because you used to see the boys take t-shirts and the nightclubs they used to go all the pussy i'm not saying i never got it much more soon but they used to get it because women women would gravitate towards them yeah of course it's the look isn't it it's but i'd like to say it's a look on finance you know that's that's the that's that's my that's my sentence that i like to use now is that you know it's not forever and it's more damaging than it is doing you good you know what i mean so at 14 you're taking steroids did you feel different did you feel more confident yeah i felt like the man did you yeah i felt like and i was hanging around with lads older than me and i just felt like you know i felt i literally did feel like the man like at a young age and i was big i was looking big i was like i think i was like i think i got up to like nearly 90 kilo at like 15 16 which is which is fucking heavy do you know i think it's like 14 stone yeah that's big i'm 103 then yeah yeah and i was i was abusing them like i you know i was i was eating like six seven meals a day and two meals at once and at such a young i had nothing else to do as well because i weren't in school so i sort of just put all my time and into that like were you injecting it yeah at 14 yeah well is that the little pouch in the right cheek so yeah Yeah, so top right-hand corner, so you split your ass up into like four, and then it's the top right.

10:16But you can do your legs, you can do your shoulders. That's the best part to do. Your ass, probably. You don't really feel it. I remember having me first one. Excuse me. And I was asking me brother's name, Jordan, and I said, is it done, Jordan? He's like, yeah, the wipe. He's already got the wipe, you know, the antiseptic wipe on me ass. And he's like, hold that. I'm like, fucking hell. Sound, you know, like buzzing, thinking, fucking hell, I'm going to get massive now. not felt a thing and i'm fucking doing i mean i had a rush then i remember like having the first jab and obviously it's not in me yet it takes a bit to get into your system and i had to rush you know straight away fucking hell i'm on steroids here you know straight away walking around the next day thinking yeah fucking hell and nothing had happened but the thought the placebo effect in your head as well you know do you think that comes into it a lot when people actually take steroids where they're actually training machines anyway.

11:08Obviously, you get that extra buzz of the stuff that they're taking. What was the other stuff people used? Is it T5s? Fat burners, but I think they're full of caffeine. I think there was speed in them. Like, people were going off their fucking head, but it wasn't just bodybuilders taking them. It was hairdressers, people worked in shops, because the buzz they were getting from these T5s. In fact, they were laced with whiz, weren't they? I think people were putting whizz in them, and people were having them, and like you say, people were like parents, now they're having these and they get a burnout cleaning the house you know what i mean like you're off these or fat burners yeah so you started taking steroids what was the training regime like were you just young naive bench pressing the kind of usual suspects or were you doing it by the book yeah just just literally push pull legs just six days a week in there that was it just i was strict but i weren't too strict um yeah it wasn't there wasn't too much to it to be fair i literally just followed what the boys were doing and then because i was so young these these lads now they're like 18 so they've got like four or five years on me so i just literally sort of i was just like a lost puppy really following them what were they saying when you were taking it um my brother was injecting me so it's not much fucking not much so he can They're not thinking of the effects then.

12:27They're not thinking of the damage. They're just thinking they're trying to help you. The insecure boy who's maybe struggling or thinking he's good enough, not at school, thinking this will give you the confidence. Well, I think my brother maybe felt like, not sorry for me, but he sort of took me like, if you want to say that, not under his wing, but with him. I had no one really. I'd moved back from a foreign country. I'd never really got on with people my age. I'd always had a bit of an older head and sort of fit in quite well. and they used to see me as just one of the lads, I think, in the end, you know, where, you know, he's George's little brother, but at the same time, he's one of the lads.

13:02He doesn't seem, I don't think I ever seemed younger or nothing like that. So I think there was a bit of a difference there, maybe. Did your dad know you were on steroids? Yeah, so I remember one time, fucking, me and George used to love a pizza, so we used to, like, we never really used to see my dad much, but like a day out to us, like, going Pizza Hut or something, and we'd be fucking buzzing with that, you know what I mean? and uh my dad used to have this van and he's picked me up picked my brother up and we're in the van now going to pizza and he said right then it's quite serious so who's the steroids and in the shoebox under your bed and i thought for fuck's sake and he knew he's like he said to me i knew though because you were getting so fucking big at a young age so i've gone i said what you doing fucking rooting around in my room you know and he's like well fucking hell call it look at the size of your mates you you know you don't look like the average fucking 14 15 year old now i knew something was going on i think he was worried more than anything like do you think if your dad was around though you wouldn't be on steroids at such a young age i think i think if i think it goes back to the family splitting up i think if the family never split up i think i'd be in a completely different place altogether from from then like definitely yeah yeah it just shows you how things can affect you as a kid yeah we don't really understand emotions we don't understand feelings we don't understand the mindset at that age it's just to get by not get bullied yeah not be a victim to other people on the street or whatever you just want to it's a survival mode you're not really taught emotions are you i feel like emotions you learn as you grow so what did your dad say after he found out you're on steroids it's nothing really he could say i was up to it i was up to a lot of stuff stuff back then so i think steroids was the least of his problems you know he knows i'm going to gym all right i'm taking a bit of steroids but knows when I'm in the gym I'm actually in the gym or if I'm at home meeting he knows other than that I think didn't have a really clue what was going on other than that yeah how was the mid swings yeah I was angry like especially growing up because your test at that age from to your 20s is quite fucking high it peaks doesn't it so now I'm putting all this this gear in me it wasn't good like I was angry yeah quite a lot even just for example like spilling a bit like spilling a bit of your tea you know your cup of tea and you spill a bit like fuck like it's quite over exaggerated but at the time it doesn't feel like that you're just going with the feeling that you've got sort of thing what is roy drage then because i know people who take it in their cam but people say when you're cam anyway you're still going to be cam people say if you're angry and you end up taking roy you're just going to be even angrier like do you see that yeah do you see people who become become angry or do you just think you're angry anyway and they always just enhance that i probably i'd probably agree with the fact that if you've got anger there i reckon it enhances it definitely i mean someone that's calm they've always got like that calm sonar and they're quite chilled aren't they and i think maybe the calm people they might experience a bit of like rage in the gym and that but not day-to-day life i don't think probably mood swings you know you're affecting your hormones and your body they're quite imbalanced or they're too high or you know i think i think the average male should be 27.7 your testosterone level and when you're on juice it can go up to like 400s 500s which is fucking through the roof do you know what i mean is it the buzz is it extra energy is it what yeah confidence no depression because testosterone the higher testosterone the more likely you are to be depressed so yeah it must have a massive effect but then the foods in that we eat can help your testosterone or so many good foods out there exercise training your legs i think is the best thing to raise your testosterone yeah um but we just don't fucking do it people i think people are just fucking lazy lazy i think the modern modern society now they're just so fucking lazy and i'll be honest obviously all the chemicals in the food now what's going on there's loads that you could go into which does affect your testosterone but like there's so many so many natural things and natural remedies and and food you can eat in diets that would definitely increase your testosterone you just got to put a bit of effort in i think people lack effort don't they were you getting into trouble then yeah i was naughty like that just i just think it just refers back to what i was going through as a kid i was just i didn't fucking care really wasn't that bothered you know i was 14 lost me fucking hair what what worse to go on do you know what i mean what they've gone well bold as fucker that is you know what i mean mate so like i think that the worst thing that ever could have ever happened to me was was that so i think when that happened i just lost like all fear i just think like well hell i believe in god so god stripped me in the area what you know and i just thought i don't care anymore so when did the the steroids operation start what was it because in the three-part series i think it was your dad there was an old guy at the bar and i think he used to do steroids and had a big wide of cash and your dad says listen where did you get the money and he's yeah told him is that kind of where the light bulb moment came um was on more tour yeah so i think my dad i think my dad knew this fella for a while anyway to be fair um my dad my dad's fucking mad because he's never been a bit short of cash anyway listen Coughlin was good money man it was um I just think he wanted someone else the fishing the job that he was doing was fucking backbreaking you know I mean it's hard work so I think he was seeing this fella quite often and they were chatting and then I think this fella has said to him look you know my dad's quite on my dad's quite on it with life and business and money and just he's just on on job with life really and this fella's took a liking to him and give him sort of an opportunity to get involved i think yeah what did you know about it then obviously we were few taking it taking it and making it two totally different things yeah of course um to do with making it i absolutely i didn't have fucking clue about anything um i just knew how to fucking withdraw it in a bagel and put it in me like other than that nothing getting it from china then getting it cheap yeah so a kilo how many bottles could you make from a kind of kilos how did you make it all as well thousands mate out of a kilo how much was a bottle we had free websites so we'd get hundreds of orders a day through the website and they'd go for 40 quid a pop all the way through and you'd have people ordering up to 10 bottles on order so 400 quid it's cost you 40 quid to make literally if that you know because on the the series as well you've got a farmhouse yeah out in the wilderness so nobody can see you yeah whose idea was that my dad's it's a good idea though he's on it out of sight out of mind yeah yeah yeah where we live is quite it's quite compact everyone knows each other yeah everyone's looking stopping you and people are nosy fucking bastards aren't they do you know what I mean so you've got the lab kind of thing it's not like a fucking lab because on your website it's like little bottles doctor's hands you're thinking people say it was in a farmhouse with all and leaves everywhere like it's it is a hazard but so you've got that you're getting the gale out so when you get it unpack it pour it all out what do you mix it with how does it know so um so basically we we're getting apart we were getting the parcels in and we'd we'd there'd be no time to leave it it'd be getting cooked straight away the minute we got the minute we got the raw compound it'd be cooked instantly like um certain raws you use more than once for different different products um yeah literally as soon as it come it would be getting cooked up and gone straight away what was the product called remvex remvex remvex labs yeah yeah so you're making it cooking it up how long would it would it take you a full day um take like an hour to maybe to maybe cook it up fully you have to you have to unfreeze a couple of things pardon me and then filter it and then it's done it's ready to ready to be to be filled and the bottles so you're just cooking the stuff putting other chemicals in it cooking it do you have to let it dry out or anything how does it um so you literally all you have is you have a bunsen burner like a big whisk like a mixing bowl you measure all your ingredients out depending on how many bottles you're cooking so doing thousand at a time you measure it out how much you need there's a few other things that go in it the most simplest thing you just go and get from tesco is grapeseed oil you just that's the majority of a steroid is is oil from a supermarket and the compound makes it up so what is the powder it's just the compound so they call it the compound it's just all the it's the artificial synthetic in it artificial chemicals basically bollocks really and that's what people are injecting yeah Yeah, yeah.

22:03It literally comes like a fucking brick. And you had to have different addresses to send the gear to. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just all over North Wales, really, yeah. Because obviously in the three-part series, there's a few of you who get the jail. Yeah. But they know what they were getting. Some people must have. If you're getting packages delivered, you're not that naive to think there's nothing. Listen, they've not put everything in. You know, there's been quite a lot that was said. A lot of people knew. Like, you know, you're getting paid handsome here. And obviously a few people didn't know. But like you say, when you're involved in that sort of life, you've just got to do what you've got to do.

22:43And you do tell lies and you are deceiving people and that. And it is, it is what it is. All right. Yeah. You're doing bad and paid the price for it sort of thing. But yeah, not everyone knew, but people did know. It weren't like we were just taking a piss and, you know. Yeah. Listen, it's not cracks, Matt. You're cooking up. Do you know what I mean? It's not as if you're. listen people are getting good physiques off this do you know what i mean but were you scared when you started making it no were you thinking this could go tits up because if someone injects this and end up turning purple or something and dying like was that concerns how did you try it out how did you um well who was the guinea pig for it the the person the person that was doing it already he'd already had a lab previously so we knew it was a go-ahead straight away basically um so there was no there was no fear there was no there was no second thoughts it was just get straight to it i think i think they hid it from me for a couple years my dad i didn't have a clue i didn't have a clue what he was doing and then that's when obviously he's offered me to do it well told me that's when i found out but i didn't have no no second i just i just wanted more money me like that's what all comes down to greed listen i i was skin on my arse i didn't have a pot to piss in i I was, you know, I was doing, I got caught with a bit of weed, what I got charged with, and I was shotting out little 20 bags and that, you know, trying to fucking make a bit of a living that way.

24:06And then that come my way, and I was like, fucking hell, you know, I'm seeing more and more and more, and I'm thinking, fucking hell, I'm thinking this is for life, do you know what I mean? I've got this job here for life, I'm going to be fucking millionaire, do you know what I mean? But yeah. Is there no way to test it? Because if you get a bit of Charlie, you can use ammonia, test the strength. is there any way you can do that with steroids just like a you know like if can um you've seen like when the police police have them uh swab test sort of thing there's like them for steroids or you send it off send a little bit off you get a steroid tester steroid testing kit stuff like that really it's really basic so when you're doing the steroids you're making it it then becomes worldwide scale because those are not different competitors for you as well but it's their reviews so people can buy it online as well yeah there's so many websites online so how do those websites not get closed down just foreign ip addresses and just different techniques outside men running running the show on the internet basically so why was yours so popular why did it become number one in the uk i think we just put so much effort into making it good we we treated it like a we treated it like a real business it wasn't like it was illegal to us It was like, I remember driving around and I've got thousands of steroids in my car and I'm not even thinking anything of it.

25:27And I'm going to this post office, posting these big boxes. And I just treated it like a normal fucking job. I think because what it is, and it's legal to possess to take, isn't it? You just don't think anything of it. Well, we didn't anyway. I don't know how other people think. Maybe we were a bit dumb. I don't know. but yeah, you just treat it like a normal job and crack on. So you're getting the compounds from China, mixing it, and you're having to distribute through mail as well, sending it in the post? Yeah, sending it in the post. Was the post office not thinking he posts a lot of fucking mail?

26:05No, we just used to fucking lie and say they were different stuff. Would you post one at a time or could you post 10, 100? What was the most you posted at one go? I used to go to the post office with bin bags full of small orders and then big boxes full of thousands in one day, daily, every day. Did any ever get caught? No, never had one problem. Because I'd imagine the sniffer dogs are looking for drugs, like high-end drugs A class, B class. So obviously it must have flown under the radar because it is a class C. And I think because it's a liquid in a bottle, I don't think there's, I've never smelt a steroid.

26:42When you're cooking it, it stinks, or when the raw comes, it stinks. but when you turn it into the oil there's nothing more to it it's just once it's in that bottle you know it's crimped it's done you can't smell a fucking thing so how did you get good reviews then because it was so popular or were you telling people to leave a review no not once just it was just good gear man we just put effort into making it good and listen it's it's it's it's one of them you know when you do something and you've got a bit of pride and you want to do well at things and you've got ambition in life anyway. I think no matter what you fall into, you want to be good at it.

27:19And I think we just took a lot of pride in what we were doing. And, you know, at the end of the day as well, you want to make money. You want to do it. And you don't want to be doing something illegal and making shit money. Otherwise, you might as well go get a fucking job in it. What was your other brother doing? My brother's always had his own business. He does rendering and plastering. I don't think he was ever too entertained like. Your dad's seen you as the easy option. he's thought he's off the fucking scale help man get him involved so do you think your old boy was already doing it then jails coming is right already the current info so was your old boy already involved in it and he's just got you yeah he just kind of got you involved in the family business he hid it from me for a while like i said i didn't have a clue i just thought he was still going fishing and because i wasn't like i was living at home like but on and off like very regular you know and i just used to fuck off to my mom's for like two three months and come back and be at home for like a couple of weeks have a fight with my dad he kicked me out again so i didn't know and then when i've settled down in the country and got in the army and this and that and he's you know approached me sort of thing kind of lost soul not normally very yeah very lost yeah how was your what age were you then 18 so you're still young still yeah how much how much gear were you taking then so i stopped it when i joined the army i didn't take any i I didn't take any for a couple of years.

28:42Did you get drug tested? Yeah, but I didn't really much. Did you get treated for steroids? I used to go AWOL me. Just to fuck off. I had the police, I had the military police at the door a few times. And for me, the army, as shit as it sounds, it was just a base. I needed a bit. I needed a home. And I was good at it. I was fucking shit out. Like, I was really good. I got top marksmanship and top recruiting training. Like, I got a little mug and a medal and this and that. they when i applied to get out i was 18 and you can you can apply to leave out at 18 but they knocked me back so that's when i was like fuck this you know i'll fucking show you i'm leaving sort of things i was lucky not to go to colchester like because i used to just go awol for like weeks at a time so yeah it's like a base it's like a home really just an escape yeah another escape route mate yeah so you're 18 so when you're getting the free steroids were you taking more we're taking more tests when we were making them yeah i just used to take bottles how much were you taking oh maybe i don't know that's a lot i couldn't if i had to tell you truthfully i'd be i'd be lying but a lot like yeah it wasn't good like but trend i was just mad about testing trend because i'd love i was mad for like shit food so i'd be able to go and eat a mcdonald's and a domino's and still be shredded as fuck so trend's the one for bills yeah trend's the worst why just takes a massive massive effect on your on your mental side as well as your body i think it fucks you up more mentally than it does your body why do people take it then just gets you in phenomenal shape so fast a couple of weeks you know you've been taking trend test it takes you know a month and you're like right okay test uh trend is fucking so fast i was could you not have made that yeah we made it all so you what else so what did you actually we we made fucking everything anything and everything and anything like literally and then we bought things in as well to sell on the website then so what was making test mast trend all the orals equipoise decker fucking everything everything every steroid mpp loads so many i only thought you were making a test no we make probably making about 15 products maybe minimum i'd say yeah so you proper became proper yeah chemists yeah literally yeah yeah was it trial and error for each one like who's giving you the no it's a kind of the like a cookbook who's giving you the recipe so it's basically all the same apart from the compound changes and everything else stays the same but you change the so test so they call them the steroids itself compounds so like eq equipoise that has its own compound d ball has its own compound test has its own so you just change that but do the same same ingredients so for the d ball and that did you need a press yeah we had a tablet press yeah i'll say it was a proper organization i think it was only the test i'm sure the series only spoke about the test they've caught so much out mate it's crazy um i'm not sure why you know because they've missed out on good they've missed out on good stuff do you know what i mean just give it to me bro yeah that's what i fucking said i swear when i messaged him first time i fucking because i didn't want it because i'm quite um i've been very very anti-government and bbc all my life and people always used to say he's a fucking weirdo this kid and i'm like you know i'm me so i'm like fuck you and look at this and do this and like everything when it comes down to food you know chemtrails all this match i love it all you know and i i think i messaged you and i was like it was like last year at some point yeah and the bbc were trying to get hold of me and i said james it's macaulay doddy yeah fucking the bbc are trying to get my story but fuck them the nonsense and then it was it was something like that you know and i fucking meant it you know what i mean and i say it to them i say i say it to the people that done the producers that they're good stuff man yeah not everybody who walks at the bbc yeah because they see how his corpus and that there's a mixture of everything but it's just because of the shit that they've they've swept under the rug for so long you mean why yeah what's everybody involved in do you know what i mean like you do all these documentaries exposing people expose your own yeah of course yeah yeah yeah do a proper job if you're gonna do it but ain't it mad how you talk about chemtrails and talk about bbc this and that but yet you inject chemicals into your body anyway like it is mad like i'm caught anti-vax or whatever you want to call it i don't agree with them but yet people have got a point you says we snorted gear and took all your pose for you yeah that's a fair point but end of the day it was my choice then of course you know being forced yeah which is a massive different yeah but i'd never be vaxxed you know what i mean but like i sort of get it but at the same time i do think do you think sniffing a bit of coke and smoking a bit of weed and injecting a bit of test is completely different to being forced to take this chemical that's come out of a lab all of a sudden to cure and you know i think it's i think when you look into things i'd rather sniff a fucking gram lime and go and put that in me do you know what i mean unless it was made in a lab in wales bro they would be all over it mate if they came out and said listen we made this in wales you black give me that if another lab comes out from wales make sure when you buy from there so you were making everything then everything mate it was it was full time i remember yeah towards the end because we used to have like a routine because obviously next day orders at the post office they shot at like one half one so we'd get up we'd start work we'd do all like the laptop orders they were like the main pardon me they were like the main orders the laptop ones because the most money you know and that's where all your reviews come from and like you could say publicity sort of thing online box them off finish finish the orders for one half one and we'd be done like the day would be mine i'd i'd made all this money and i'd just go and live a life from one o 'clock onwards after i'd done the postal run and then the last maybe six months mate i was working till 11 12 at night all the time finishing bottles i just could not keep could not keep up like it was fucking ridiculous did people know around you what you were doing no i never told a soul even even my daughter's mum didn't know until i got nicked and i rang her up and she'd not heard of me and i'm i'm like i'm in the playstation i've been nicked yeah just to hit it your dad was making a lot and he was a lot of shot changing you because obviously what i get from you you can be a loose cannon maybe in the pubs and spending a lot of money more designer gear you know how it operates it you stick out like a sore thumb same as the boys used to do graft back in the day where i was from before you know they're driving about and porsches course x5s back then you do stand out is like about you may as well just put a fucking please right on top of your car it's just a scream out that you're doing something wrong but do you think was your dad short-changing you because of your personality was he trying to do your favorite or was he just being a shark i think he was just a greedy to be honest a man is a man his mate and my dad's partner they were all getting paid handsome and i'll be honest mate i i like i'm it's nothing to brag about but if it weren't for me the operation wouldn't have gone down my dad would never run that on his own and he'd never got anyone that he could trust you know and i did love it in the end you know i wanted to be fucking good at it and you know it's sort of my life you know like i that's all i had so i wanted to be good i wanted to keep it under wraps i mean he can't talk he had rollies cars but he had fucking everything you know i mean so why can't i go and get these fucking bits as well you know i mean were you a spender um i've always been a bit of a spender yeah i mean this money comes and goes you know i mean and i feel like when you're on a bit of i like to call it a money frequency me so when you make money and you've got that sort of thing about you you always fall into a bit of money do you know what i mean so but like not like a i wasn't like a show-off i've never been like a show-off i've always been like pretty humble and normal and yeah i like i like clothes or you know I don't think there's too much up with that do you know what I mean yeah but like you say money's easy to be made when you're on that like you say frequency but as if you're tapped into it and you really want it you can get it everybody does what they want with their own time and if you really want that paper you can go and get it it just depends how you go and get it because when you do the negative side of it like when you say talk about frequency there it does come back and bite you in the ass 100 % mate yeah when your dad then so he was just being a greedy bastard and just trying to get more money from you.

37:51Why did you not tipple, though? Why did you not... Surely your mind, were you not thinking, we're doing all these bottles? Because I'd have been adding up my mind, right? We're doing... I'd have been counting in my mind all the bottles that were going... Or whatever, tablets. I've been trying to calculate it in my mind just with a ballpark trigger. But you know yourself, if you're working with sharks, they've got excuses. This goes out here. There's always something, mate. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Always something. When you're involved in an operation like that, Like there's always a reason why you're not getting or why this is happening.

38:20And it's just a load of bollocks. And I think at the time, I know I always second guess it. And I always be like, right, well, this and this and I'm doing this. But the first time I think in my life, I was just happy and at peace. And I was, you know, I was quite comfortable from what I can remember. So I didn't really want to fuck that up as well. Do you know what I mean? so I was in sort of a position now where do I fall out with my dad again now and get kicked out and end up scrapping and that's it I'm fucking and I've got nothing again I'll just bite the bullet go for it make this bit of money that you're making and live alright do you know what I mean because we're not questioning if he's got the rollie and the motorbikes yeah of course man but then again you're thinking how he could have been saying listen it's the money I made before we'd done this I was already making money there is always angles with people being greedy bastards but that's the thing about family the majority of fallouts comes through money and as much as a loyalty and trust is there you would die for your dad you would kill for your dad and he would do the exact same for you but money gets involved there's an element of greediness comes in because you're a crook at the end of the day you're flying under the red do you know what I mean you're dodgy bastards it's hard to hear you say it do you know what I mean it's true but you're a crook so it's hard to invest than a crook 100 but you know yourself your boys and your family members who you know are loyal to the core yeah but when money sneaks through the door you just want bigger and better things it's so mad how money destroys us mentally everyone it's not just anybody there's an element of greed with everyone we always want more very evil sometimes in it yeah i think money amplifies the person you are as well definitely the same as steroids you know yeah 100 million percent yeah like for like um but yeah i mean listen did i want to say things and was i angry and was i pissed off and when i was working till 1am and i was thinking fucking hell do you know what i mean but like at the same time mate it's it's difficult because since teenager since moving back from spain i'd never been settled i'd never had i'd never been at peace i'd always been in trouble i'd always been causing trouble so for once now you know i'm out the way i'm just going to gym I've got my missus making money I'm going on holidays I'm quite content so it's a risk ruining that for me again is quite a big thing do you know what I mean so you can keep what you're fucking getting and just just see me nice how did you know your dad was making more I just kept seeing more obviously work rate was going up you know non-stop flat out I'm seeing these prices on this thing and I'm just I'm starting to like boil up a bit and I think there's a thing on a series I remember walking in we used to have like this this oak table it was fucking huge and it was just stacked and stacked and stacked 50 bundles there wasn't no 20s they were just all 50s and that's when i'm like fuck it now do you know what i mean i've seen money before like but i've never seen i've never seen that like and that's when i think that's when i blew and i thought fuck this were you getting a set wage every week or every month yeah so so originally i started off on 500 £500 a week at first yeah that's fucking terrible mate you're fucking telling me do you know what I mean and I hold it against my dad until not too long ago to be honest because I think you fucking how long did they keep you on that for only a few months and then it went up then it did go up do you know what I mean which I am grateful for do you know what I mean and I was getting seen nice then but still mate I should have been on I think I was worth at least 30 % that's my you know and i could i could hold grudges and i could say this and that and i talk about it now with a smile do you know what i mean what did the course estimate at millions yeah so they said that we imported 2.2 millions worth millions were 2.2 mil um how we is getting paid through post as well yeah so um post western unions bank transfer and any any way possible really is that not leaving a paper through putting it in the banks yeah but just through businesses different people different businesses oh yeah your dad opened the sweet shop he had a few things going and his and his his partner at the time so they were just washing the money through the businesses yeah yeah no it's a good setup it's a good operation yeah he was pretty clever to be fair yeah and he seems switched on it's not a case of the business is a good kind of smother yeah he's always been he's always been very uh business he was more of a businessman than a father you know i mean which is which is good but it's it's helped now in the long run now i think fucking hell sound you know that's where i get my work rate from and but the same time appreciate you know i mean do you wish he was a bit more of a father instead of a business partner being honest i couldn't care now because i'm i am who i am now do you know i mean and if I used to be very bad for holding on you know and not letting go and not accepting it now so I'm kind of glad how it's all just worked out you know what I mean So do you think he was then obviously using you but using you in a way he knows he could trust you because as much as you had your differences you probably know you wouldn't have broke for each other I'd always respected him as well you know no matter what shit we'd been through I'd always had you know he'd treated me like shit and I'd treated him like shit, but I always had respect for him and I would always, you know, trust him and me dad and it, do you know what I mean?

43:56So I think he had that as well. He's ever paranoid before the coppers came to think this is getting too big here. He's ever scared of the CID getting surveillance. Was there ever any concern of that, especially of the scale you took it? Yeah, I think there was, I think I mentioned in the series and the documentary as well, there's a couple of times where I probably could have been seeing things or fucking whatever, but I can guarantee I wasn't where certain cars or a certain man was watching us. But other than that, mate, I'm going to be honest, all we wanted to do was just expand and keep it going.

44:34And we settled into this life now where we don't have to work for no one, no one's telling us what to do. We're sort of our own bosses. You live that sort of life and you just think, I think you don't really think of the negative sides because you're so indulged in everything going well. I think it sort of blindsides you a bit. Could you ever take any of it legit? Is it any of it legal? D-ball or any sort of steroids legal? So doctors prescribe tests, don't they? Yeah. If you've got a low test count. But it's obviously a difference for the one that you're making, I'd imagine. Mate, knowing the government, I fucking would.

45:12Yeah, it's probably 100 % plus. How many of the things that you are creating, how many could you have made legal if you could make legal? So just a testosterone I think I don't think so there's quite a mad law on steroids so they're legal to possess to take yourself in a small quantity but they're illegal to sell to buy and sell if that makes sense It just doesn't even make sense though You can buy it which is legal but you can't sell it so who the fuck's selling it then? It's mad as fuck, mate. We'll use that. But there must be... Do you think the government could be possibly selling it as well?

45:52I think the government are involved in a lot of things, you know. It's there in the drug trade, isn't it? It's a trillion dollar trade. If you look at the fitness world now and the money involved in steroids, why would they fucking not be pushing it? You know what I mean? Social media's took it through the roof, hasn't it? Did you have any competitors? Because obviously in the drug trade, you can have drug wars. you can have ice cream wars that we had in glasgow where people had ice cream vans but they were doing gear from it a lot of trouble happened did you have any sort of trouble with that side with competitors trying to cut you out or anything no trouble um we just used to have this website called well there's a um it's a website on the internet called e-roids so you have a list of um websites on this one to a fucking it could be 20 do you know what i mean and that's there your competitors really that is it there's no one really no everything's so cheap and everyone's making so much money that there's so much market there's no need for it you know what i mean it's the same as people who sell weed you never get any trouble everything's cash in hand it's just chilled yeah it's not like big you mean you go big scales of charlie or brown where it's more ruthless it's more expensive you lose a kilo of weight you're 30 40 grand loss straight away yeah you lose a box of steroids you're there's not much you're lost if you're cutting it yourself very similar sort of game weed steroids i don't think there's you know you're just dealing with normal people really do you know what i mean people that want to smoke and people just want to go to the gym you know did you ever distribute to america all over the world yeah they must have been all over the world that must be the biggest place america europe's quite big poland russia yeah you're like mate even like hungary france italy all these places we were sending it to they loved it like did they absolutely loved it yeah daily orders were going abroad how many competitors would you have if it was a whole of europe was that a different whole game to try and break the market again on that on that website of e-roids there was um is this a worldwide yeah so there's a uk platform on this website and then there's worldwide we were number one in the uk for a long long time and then i think we were like top three in the world for a while as well if people go on E-Royds or you can see I think you go back a long time you'll be able to see Rembeck's labs like you and your dad seem like a couple of dodgy bastards you barely put to something else in those portions mate I was like no wonder the BBC cut it out no wonder men all hills went through the roof bank because whatever the fuck they were putting in that to make it number one you're definitely lacing that with some shit bro Rack man

48:32how the fuck these two guys from wales create one of the biggest and best steroids in the world well this is what i'm saying i think it was it pure luck nah or was it i don't believe in luck do you think you make your own luck i think i think you've good fortune um and i think yeah i think you make your own luck i think your mindset like i said we said before frequency energy your beliefs you know your work rate the person you are good bad we just we just fucking went in on it man we just we just hit it hard and you know and we were both excited about it and we we loved doing it and we wanted to be fucking good you know i mean it's like me now but i could be a fucking postman and i'd want to get them puzzles delivered a certain time do you know i mean i'd want to be number one fucking postman yeah you know i mean that's just who like me dad's the same as well and that's why i think we've done so well because we're so alike and we've got this this work rate and this this work ethic and belief system where it just fucking it just took off for us like yeah obviously when you said you went to the army and you're becoming number one and distributing come number one you've obviously got that mentality to be the best and your work rate listen your work effort like you say is making your own luck but that comes with your work effort work ethic and how where do you want to take things like you've clearly got a good work ethic but it's mad because you can go down a legal route and do something and scare it yeah selling fucking underpants or toothpaste you can find an avenue and sell that yeah top competitor but again it's just something that it's illegal it just seems more thrilling real yeah you know it's the excitement of i'm doing this under their nose but the coppers know everything they know fucking everything they always will and that's just the way it is with the snitches and the technology nowadays did you ever think did you stay in the farm did you ever change shop the why did you not scare it in like a factory or go um we had ideas so there was before we got raided we were setting things in place to go bigger because the obviously the manufacturing was getting bigger produced everything was just scaling so fast like words can't describe how fast it scaled from thousands to it could have gone to tens of thousands like it just happened just so fast weekly or monthly yeah weekly daily thousands were going out it's a class c here what's it in places like romania hungary france no idea did you never think i've never never looked into it did you never think about going to europe and setting up camp there i know it's massive in poland very poland russia massive very big in poland they're all big guys man yeah um but no never really just just we just wanted to expand here we are we were looking at getting like new machines different work area this and that and different means and methods of getting it over and stuff like this and i don't yeah just fucking shit at the fan in the end by the time we were setting up to go to do it there like because you used to just get you used to just get it in boxes yeah just like kilos yeah but then obviously i think it got rumbled and then you put it in your dad opened the sweetie shop and got it did you used to get it sent to the shop then and sweetie packets yeah man yeah just flying through then like fucking it took us a while because we didn't know what to do obviously it's quite hard to disguise a fucking white powders and then like me and my dad just being us racking each other's brains and come up with the the sweet shot like when you fell out about the money your dad gave you the rice yeah i fucking quit yeah he had to give me i had no fucking choice i put him in a position where i fucking left i thought fuck you do you think he underappreciated what you actually brought to the table yeah i think he says it in the documentary where i think there's a part of the documentary says i needed him more than he needed me and i think that's the first time i've heard him fucking the first time i've heard him say it like you know what i mean but i knew that deep down i knew it i just think he maybe had a bit more pride and a bit of an ego to say it to his younger sons you know what i mean are you gutted that he never says it sooner yeah i think things would have been probably because i fucking like i say i'm i was very hot-headed and i hold on to grudges and i think things we could have sorted things out a lot sooner i think if we spoke about things and and he admitted a few things and you know and i'd accepted and i'd said sorry for a few things yeah but both of your problems is probably too alike very like you know if you wanted more money and got that you would have come back in four weeks and probably want more course so you're definitely a resemblance of your dad couple of greedy bastards couple of greedy fuckers yeah yeah no listen you're fucking there on the head mate course it is and and at the time i probably didn't need all that money do you know what i mean i probably weren't like too fussed i've never used to think of the bigger pictures you know what i mean so i'd get my payday and i'd go and get like a fucking new outfit or what a pair of trainers and i'd go eat nice and do this and so i never used to think well i can do this with this so he probably was right as well but yeah yeah he's right to a degree but he's also also had that as an excuse of why they didn't do it the biggest excuse is that mate for him do you know what i mean it is what it is so the package you started getting stopped you change it to the sweetie thing when did the coppers how did they get the in of understanding okay there's big shipments coming here was at the post office i think we threw them off with the suites i think they i may personally because it went on a bit longer after that i think the suite packages threw them off me because we didn't get any seized they were flying through them but sometimes but they would already on to us yeah sometimes because the corpus of surveillance people picking up gear let them go away with the gear find out what they're taking the gear and thinking because it's a bad sign you don't get pulled well i think yeah well i think i think at this point now they were already well on us anyway do you know what i mean yeah so i don't think it really fucking mad i think it was just waiting for doomsday to kick the door off and come and get us sort of thing yeah they're just waiting to gather as much intelligence as they can to find out who the top of the tree is literally yeah how long were you doing it for before they came through the door i was doing it for about a year me i think they were doing it for a bit longer not too sure they hid it from me for a while like to say a time frame i don't know yeah but you were still over a year 17 18 over a year definitely what age were you when they came through the door um like 19 like between 19 and 20.

55:09did you have any money tucked away a little bit not much fuck all just to fucking spend man but again your dad has a reason your dad has kind of right knowing you're still young full of cum full of fucking test you're just going to waste whatever you get if you're making 10-20 grand a week you're spending that if you're making a grand you're spending that you're living beyond your means sometimes and no matter what's coming in your overheads just get bigger and bigger and bigger so as much as your dad is a greedy bastard they still got a point of trying to maintain it because if you would have went full steam ahead you would have had the big watches and the big cars and you would have drew a lot of attention that's the way I would have kind of seen it I would have been nicked 100 % yeah i was flying around in a 1.7 fucking astra flying at that imagine me in a fucking nice car and you know i'd have been on top probably yeah it just brings a lot of heat but i think at the same time you still got a bit of a responsibility to be my dad look out for me hasn't he which he's sort of fucking getting at but you know sometimes you've got a you've got to let someone sink themselves and if they need more money they need more fucking money do you know what i mean so you were 19 the door goes through what are you thinking then um did all your doors go through at the same time yeah so it's mad because i wasn't towards the end of the operation i wasn't living there i was living at my partner's so i used to just get up travel to work at the farm and then travel back down i was living in chester at the time is And this one night I've gone there, I fucking, because I wasn't even on the search warrant, you know, when your door get kicked off.

56:40They come and they present these papers to you, here to arrest so-and-so, and I wasn't even on that. So they must have sort of had an inkling I weren't there and I was there that night. And they fucking kicked me door off. And I used to, like, have this lock on me door and they've kicked all the doors off and they're fucking knocking on me door. And I'm saying, look, I'm fucking naked. Just give us a fucking set, put some clothes on and just let them in. and then they didn't handcuff me at first so my dad when i've gone downstairs my dad and his partner were cuffed on the sofa and i was taking gear at the time and um i had like this hairdressing bag this red hairdressing bag because i used to shave my hair and it was full of roids and they were remvex so when the police have searched my room and they've obviously seen the fucking remvex in my room nipped me from them but they'd have had me anyway but i wasn't on the warrant i I was probably on the warrant down in Chester.

57:33So you've been next, so you were all in the same house? Yeah. Your dad, everybody handcuffed, was it armed response? Yeah, NCA and someone else. It's mad though for a class C, for steroids with the armed response. I just think because of the scale, man, and the money involved, and, you know, I think that's all I can go off. I can't give anything else. I just think that it was the scale of it. Because it was huge. like it was if they've had surveillance on you they've probably waited for you all to be in the same house because if they don't it can give someone the heads up to do the toes of course yeah well that's why i think when i've gone there this night they've fucking kicked the door off yeah get them all yeah what you thinking then fuck you innit what you literally out do you know what just i'm gonna be honest mate more disappointment disappointment more good i'm getting more money now how long what's the time frame for getting a pay rise to get in the jail two months maybe yeah that's probably phoned that in me he'd have rather been a sentence and give you more money come and fucking get us it's time do you know what i mean so you're getting more door doors of an in yeah did you realize how big your sentence would be no i was told my barrister was telling me for the three four years i was on bail that i'd get suspended and you know you've been on you've been on bail because the bail was going on further but at the time they the time they charged us it had gone from bail to under investigation so they had to charge us otherwise it would have got fucking walked off is there not a time period i think scotland it used to be you've got to be charged within the 12 months or else it gets throughout it might have changed to 18 months i'm not too sure but was there a time scale of so if you're on bail yeah were you charged when you must have been charged if you were on bail oh just yeah of course or under investigation yeah so it used to be it used to be bailed in it but now it's gone to under investigation now so that's when they've charged us when that's come in that's when we've been charged then and you were on bail for four years yeah three four years man why so long fuck knows i think they just playing with us me i just think they had it in from us from the get-go didn't like that this family and this small community north well north wales isn't even that big you know what i mean they'd been making all this money and they'd fucking got away with it for a while like.

59:52In the series as well it says you went to the post office to collect money and you've been shouting because they didn't give you the money. The day after I got nicked, yeah. Did they not try and remand you because you were out in bail? No, nothing. Nothing. What happened? They just fucking refused to give it to me like. Yeah. But you have the wrong papers. Yeah, I had the wrong documentation. Yeah. So people were sending money to the post office and you were just going and collecting it? Yeah. That's mad. did they ever go through all the post offices and gather the footage they had a rough understanding of how many times he's went there just to kind of get a rough estimation of how much he's made yeah they had no they didn't say how much we made they'd never they never which is weird though because they do that with everything they normally say like ballpark yeah but they just went off what with what they estimated what we imported which is crazy because if you know but they can because if somebody gets caught by a kilo of coke sometimes they'll say a street value of 200 grand and it's only one kilo and you're probably spending 30 odd grand maybe putting they're just counting it as 10 bits or 50 pound bits and they fucking scale it out just to get bigger sentences yeah of course yeah I don't understand why it went on how long was the trial?

1:01:08or did you just took a I went guilty me because in the series you thought you're thinking your dad should take the blame and get you off I think yeah I think that he I think he's definitely getting it because they didn't have too much evidence on me. The evidence on me was, was quite, was very, very, um, what's the word? There just wasn't much. And they fucked up at the time. They said that they'd seen me picking parcels up and I had tattoos on my leg and I didn't have no tattoos. So that went in my favor. A few other things went in my favor. So when I was speaking to my barrister, he was like, well, maybe your dad should take a plea.

1:01:46you know they've they've fucked up on evidence of you a few times here they've got you down as leading role category one but what they're saying is is not true all right yeah i was heavily involved and i was doing it but they've got to prove it haven't they at the end of the day they've got they've got a show do you know what i mean and what they were showing weren't weren't that much they had me signing for a few parcels and a few texts no fingerprints in it no nothing nothing none of the equipment in there no gloves nothing mate just text and just text and signatures one of the neighbors says you never put your bins out i used to go the skips yeah the bastards but it's mad how people clock on everything no matter if you're on the farm there's eyes everywhere especially drones in that now and you just don't know who's watching and you know what it was because the area we were in as well because where we're from it's quite a bit rough we stand out there a little bit people don't like it as well you know when you move into a new little area and they don't know you and they don't you know you're not really chatting and that people don't really like you moving in today and places like that they're very clicky everyone knows everyone which i think we underestimated a bit to be honest nah that's a schoolboy era because everybody talks everybody notices that old lady walking her dog everybody you're never completely secretive away from everything there's always something pops up the postman or someone driving down to their own house and they see boys coming out with big bags it gets mad how certain things and everybody's got fucking ring doorbells now and everybody's got dash cams everybody's fly grassing literally mate yeah so i think a lot of it comes down i think a lot of it comes down to jealousy as well yeah plays a big part i think i think um i think jealousy is is one of the main contributors to like grassing or people she didn't need to tell the police that we don't take our rubbish out do you know i mean they've probably hated us on a little bit we've moved into this half decent house new cars you know this we we look like we're sort of living a nice life and probably not liked it you know what i mean how many co-defendants how many people are up at court um i think 30 people got nicked and that's the people whose addresses were getting used yeah and I think 18 of us went to court.

1:04:05What about the ones who didn't, though? A few people got let out, NFA sort of thing, in court. And then I'd took my court, my sentencing to the Court of Appeal, and a lad that went with me, he got straight walk out as well. See the people that were involved, not everybody's going to say no comment. I know some of the biggest and baddest men who thought they were at the time. As soon as they get into a cop shop, starts queering. Yeah, of course. Fucking asses fall out their trousers, man. how many people gave no comment statements or did anybody turn around to stick you in i'm not sure i just i just know that i i weren't fucking saying a fucking thing you know i mean they can listen they've got me now you know i mean there's not much i can fucking do you know i mean they've fucking they found steroids that i was making in my wardrobe and you know i mean they've nicked me and i think my interview i had no comment and i still think my interview went on about four or five hours that many questions repeating questions and you know what i mean so they add me like um if they've got surveillance and you're yeah i reckon people people listen out of 18 people how many people are gonna go no comment and people that aren't really making the proper money they're gonna be pissed off you know what i mean and how was that emotions take over but emotions take over and people can't control emotions.

1:05:25Do you know what I mean? What was your dad saying at the time? No comment. No, when he got out, when he's got bail. Nothing, he was just... It must be hard as well being out for three, four years. Yeah, set up life. Instead of just getting it over and done with because you'd have been out. You know what I'm saying? Is it more difficult? Would you ever think about doing the toes? Or was it not worth it because it's only a few years? Nah, because I thought I was getting suspended. Do you know what I mean? Like I hid it from my mum until two months before court because I was like, right, I'm getting suspended here.

1:05:55I'm not too, do you know what I mean? I'm not too fussed. So I never once thought about running off or nothing like that. I just, I just sort of cracked on with life and just, yeah. What was your baddest of saying? He was saying, he was saying suspended. You're looking at suspended here. And you end up getting seven years? End up getting the fucking, yeah, seven. Who can he be saying you get suspended since? Fucking crazy. I can't even remember his name, but if he's watching this, the cunt fucking set me up to fail me, yeah. Yeah, listen, it is what it is. I think the judge and the police and everyone that was involved, like I said, I think they just literally had it in for us from the get-go.

1:06:36There was no, like I said, I set up a new life. I'd have a little family and, you know, everything had changed. them nothing was took into account or they just they just fucking wanted us and that was it you know i mean and how many you've got the due um so one i think it was about in the end about maybe 12 to 14 and you and your dad and his partner got the biggest yeah three of us got sevens yeah some get fives yeah and a few people got walkouts couple we've got like a couple of years not much like what you're thinking when you get a seven fucking head fell off i remember me and my dad squaring up to each other in the court fucking i said you're a fucking dickhead and they had gone off in the court i'd had a few beers before caught me i've had a fucking few fucking what they call the black the black fruit fucking strongbows i had a few of them and my brother like fucking i know my dad was in wetherspoons as well before court um so it was heated yeah um just head fell off just like fucking hell because they read it out to you in months don't they when you go to court they don't say oh you get seven years they say it in months i was saying before like fucking 84 months i was like fucking hell feels like a fucking lifetime that you know what i mean 84 fucking months you're trying to work it out in your head fast while you get him fucking walked down the dock down to your cell under the court and you're like fucking hell like seven years i mean yeah there's people get caught with hundreds of kilos there's people get done for murder and only get 10 12 years i know people that start people and got five do you know what i mean and i'm like what the yeah look all the non-seas man who get community name changed fucking detached house and the fucking yeah seven's a bit of a stretch for yeah steroids for a class c when there's people get caught with classes hundreds of kilos and get four or five years just for supplying but it just depends it just shows you how big your operation was conspiracy content yeah of course manufacturing yeah i think i got uh i got done for manufacturing supplying importation and money laundering yeah that's a lot it's not as if you're just getting a shipment yeah taking it and passing it on use a full work instead of getting done with the full operation you know what i'm saying how many charges was there um i think everyone just that was involved a few people got done for like importation bit of money laundering but me my dad and his partner we got done for the supply and manufacturing importation and money laundering yeah what about the company you were getting it from obviously nothing can happen to them it's legal it's legal over there in this well it's not anymore they've made it illegal now but it was legal over there.

1:09:27So they're not doing anything wrong? Fuck all. They were at the time. They were just supplying someone and fucking, they're just making their money, yeah. So what do you think? What jail did you go to? So I went to Alkhorst at first and then from Alkhorst to Berwyn in Wrexham. So you went to Liverpool? Yeah. But your dad was in the same jail? Yeah, we were the same cell. Two's daughter of me and me old man. What are you thinking then? Do you know what? was you just had a fucking laugh, you know? I know it sounds fucking mad and people might not believe you, but we just cracked on with it and just got on with it and made the most of it.

1:10:02When we got to Berwyn, we were quite lucky. We got on a fucking really good wing and there was like 20-odd lads from Landudno there. So it's only up the road from us. So we fucking straight in with these lads on the wing, fucking... It was nice. It was like, I refer to Berwyn as a big youth club for men. literally so you're doing a seven with your dad yeah yeah did you ever have the conversation of father and son kind of um there was your life your upbringing the split up the kind of getting shit money oh nothing like that nothing about upbringing or nothing like that just about the fucking the operation yeah yeah were you taking steroids before you got the jail yeah not not not too long or not much to be fair i sort of swerved on for a little bit stayed away from home and um yeah in and out in and out for a couple years maybe what about when you got the duo obviously you can train and what just depends where you train every day do you get steroids in i didn't i didn't take no no steroids in there at all how hard's it coming off them yeah really hard i mean the addiction is real do you know i mean probably one i'd say it's up there like you know you go from being superman to this crashed little boy no testosterone in your body emotional just yeah it's not good like why do you think a lot of people are struggling now with kind of is it body dysmorphia and kind of insecurities and social media once play a massive part you've got all these guys editing their photos and think they're big and strong not realizing all the stuff that they're taking you know and how up their mind is how many bodybuilders do you know that they're actually brutal to be around they're not nice people they're just heads are fucking totally gone miserable as sin mate yeah and i think like you say social media is fucking definitely massive part and i'll be honest half these people don't even look the way they look when they post it's edited you know i mean it's good lighting and it's it's with a pump or do you know i mean it's quite fake it's quite it's quite fucking it's very deceiving i mean and because the men, men always want more, don't we?

1:12:12We always want to fucking do better or look better or more money, better car, better. There's always more for a man. So when you're involved in the gym or go in the gym and you see these men, fucking hell, look at him. It's, you know, straight away you're on juice. How was it in prison for you? You and your dad together? Completely honest, mate, sound. I had a fucking all right time. We had a laugh, do you know what I mean? We had a good time. well not i worked at a good time not a good time at all it was fucking shit but it was sound do you know i mean we had a laugh we got on with things we make we made mates and do you know it wasn't hard like it was just boring it was fucking boring as fuck you appealed your seven and got it down to a five is that correct so i don't i don't i ended up getting a four done two done two years behind the door in the end that's not too bad that's sound mate so i mean a bit more a bit more money would have been nice you know me come out that's more money yeah yeah your dad thought say listen all that extra money i took from you there you go there yeah see that grand a week i was putting away for you yeah yeah but now he sorted me out a little bit when i got out got me on my feet a little bit and then um yeah but jerry was all right sound i made i made some of my best mates in there like if i'm honest Did your dad get a reduced sentence?

1:13:37No, he didn't even try and appeal his. Why? They had a lot more on him than they did me, so. And I think he just got on with it, do you know what I mean? When I was still, like, quite, you know, fucking hell. They said this and that wasn't, do you know what I mean? In my head, I played it over and over again in my head. What sort of stuff were you seeing in prison? Were you seeing any dark stuff? You know, there was a lot of stabbing, a lot of suicide. Seen a lot of cold blues. a lot of people smoking a spice dying on the spot um a lot of fights a lot just a lot you do see a lot of shit like um it's not a nice place it's a very it's a very um it's a very intimidating place yeah it's not it's not a place you really want to be there is a lot going on in there um but i feel like in there you bring if you're in trouble you bring it to yourself the trouble doesn't just happen do you know what i mean um like i say mate i was quite fortunate i did have i did have a lot of laughs in there which people are probably gonna say yeah whatever but i did i think that's just your personality though i think you just got on with a lot of people and just have a laugh and kind of crack on with it there's no point of being fucking sober is there you're done you're insane there's no point of feeling sorry for yourself i just wanted to make a fucking i just wanted to have the best time that i could make it like i do that with everything anyway i just like to have a laugh and a joke and you know there's times to be serious and there's times to be you know i mean so just cracked on with it man just just got on with it kept my head down had a laugh i was fortunate enough i'd done seven months on a gym course um a few things happened like there was this one story so i had a padmate he's from my way called ady perkins absolute nut job um he was in the army he was in he'd done a tour to iraq and afghan head was head was gone a little bit always used to give the screws shit like always terrified and they've come spinning the wing one time and uh the screws have fucking ended up filling them in filling ad in and i'm fucking stood there and i'm about to get released now like i've got like maybe three months left to my release date i'm thinking fuck's sake why you know it's all happening so fast shall i fucking get on shall i do you know what i mean i'm in a position where i don't want people to think he's a fucking coward he's not out this pad mate because it's quite like that in there do you know what i mean word gets around the jail fast so i've jumped on this screw's fucking neck and fucking got him in like a fucking guillotine headlock fucking thing they've ended up filling us in anyway, spun the pad, left us to it, and when they've locked the door, yeah, my mate Ady's gone to lie on his, because it's in a double cell, gone to lie on his bed, put his head behind his head, his hands behind his head, and a screw's radio has fell off the belt, and it's in his fucking bed, so now we've got comms, me and this lad called Ady Perkins, around the whole jail, so we're on the screws radio fucking terrorising the fucking screws.

1:16:41They known us as radio boys by the time we left. It was fucking, fucking quality like. I've got the Nick and Shea at home. But I was, I was home in three months, but because I was so well behaved before that, they sort of let me get on with it, do you know what I mean? I got caught with a bong before it, which they knocked me back for my cat D and a couple of scuffs, but nothing. But yeah, we had these screws fucking running around and we would fucking, there was this one screw, he proper added in for me because when I went to jail, making quite a bit of money beforehand i didn't know what jail was like and i went to jail full of designer which was a big mistake like fucking pradas gucci's this and that and he hated me this screw and i had this radio and i was going kieran baxter loves men kieran the whole of a screw jail and people on the wing were like no way fucking fucking heard you on the screw radio is fucking but other than that nothing else happened they did not know her had the radio not at first and then we had this we had this woman on the wing called gemma and me mate adi had this proper distinctive laugh i heard adi fucking laughing down the radio like no way they come to the fucking come to the cell right fucking shields this and that we just give it on back in the end we said look they nicked us got a nick in and then that was it like who was the guy the influencer who was full of noise he was in the bathtub that was in the series who was that guy i'd never met him you know who they try to make out as being the kingpin of it he um he used to buy a lot off us i remember just used to writing his name we used to at first we used to write names you know i mean and then we got like a label printing machine um but i'd never met him i didn't even know too much about him to us without sounding funny he was just another customer do you know i mean so he was just buying it and then adding he was just buying and call it for himself so the websites we used to have was to um like like a bulk website where you'd get them say if you buy it in the thousands you get it cheaper and then we'd have the website where you sell it in singles you know what i mean and he was just one of them people that would buy it off us and then sell it on and on his website like but we had many of them like it wasn't just him it was i think it was the fact that he passed away during bail and stuff like that that he'd been made out to be put in the bigger picture like How did he die?