Daughter of a Mafia Hitman - Mob Wives Star Karen Gravano Tells Her Story

27:53So he now, in his own mind, is starting to feel a certain way about my father, like he could maybe possibly take over. did john ever did john try and kill your dad set your dad up i don't well he didn't when they got arrested i think they got arrested real quick and i think that that's yeah he did try to set him up if you listen to the gaudy tapes he's in a room talking about my father saying sammy killed this person sammy killed this person and the person that he's talking to is um frank not frank to chico why can't i think of his name right now anyway the person that he's talking to on the tape says, Sammy's not like that.

28:34He's right outside. If you're feeling that he's all over the place, call him in, you know, give him a, you know, a good lashing, tell him, take him, tell him to take it down a couple of notches. And John didn't want to do that because he knew that my father wasn't really doing what he was saying. He was just laying the groundwork probably to eventually kill my father and say, listen, this guy, we lost control of him. He took over New York. He's running construction. He's all over the place. That's why he was going to kill him. So I think right then and there, that was the groundwork to try to kill him.

29:05Because it wouldn't be easy to just kill my father, especially he's, you know, much liked and stuff. It would have had to been like a hostile takeover again, like they did with Paul. And remember, a lot of people, really old timers and weren't 100 % happy with the Castellano hit. So it was a lot of stuff, a lot of moving parts at the time. You have John Gotti. He's on every newspaper and he's running around, people really don't like it. Um, and you have other families wanting to take him out. He's jealous of my father. So there's a lot going on at the time that really was the perfect, um, fall.

29:38Would your dad have died for John? Yeah. He would have died for him at that time. Sad that as well, isn't it? It's sad. Yeah. How it all comes crumbling down. Everybody turns, everybody hates, everybody's killed. I think he would have died for Kozunostra. Let me rephrase that. I don't know if per se John, because I think as it started going on too, he started realizing things. But my father's loyalty was to Cosa Nostra. He was in the Gambino family. John was the boss. He was the underboss. So yes, if you're going to kill the boss, he's going to go to war. And Castellar, was that the first boss to ever be killed?

30:13No, I think they killed Albert, Anastasia or something. I don't know if he was a boss, but yeah. And how does that change things in the Mafia when a boss gets killed? that no one's protected no one is safe yeah well i think they were protected and safe because they were powerful john aligned himself with very powerful people he didn't just go in if he didn't have frankie and my father on his side they would have never been able to take out paul because you know if they were going to retaliate like i said my father had a very powerful hit team in the time he was you know very up and coming in that world what did your dad end up getting charged with?

30:49What did he get charged with? So when they got arrested, um, they were charged with murder, racketeering, loan sharking, um, all the, all the verbiage of, you know, organized crime stuff. Um, and then when my father cooperated, he cooperated to 19 murders. So I don't, I per se, I don't know if that's, I guess it's on his charge sheet that he, you know. How old were you? When he cooperated, I was 19. and you're at that age adulthood now you can understand it how was that feeling being in that life understanding the rules and regulations what should be done to then it all came out with your dad how hard was that was it hard it was devastating at that point you know um again right now he's arrested and um a lot's going on and he cooperates right the last thing i ever expected him to do and i still struggle with it till this day like him and i sit down sometimes if we have conversations or, you know, sometimes I'll ask him why, like, why, why did, why?

31:52And he'll be honest. He's like, I just broke. I was just done. Like, you know, it was my way out. I felt like I was loyal to a brotherhood. I felt like I was betrayed. And my only other option because of who I am would have been to kill him. And I was just, I didn't want to do it no more. um i guess you know i'm i don't want to come across cold and in but in that world that's what they do right and um again i can say i'm glad that that didn't happen but i also had to live with the he's a rat you know he's this and it's been a long struggle because i it took me a long time especially as a kid like i couldn't accept it i rebelled i did everything dated drug dealers bank robbers, whatever it was.

32:38I felt like, and you know what? I also felt when what I seen was when my father was bad and he was in the streets and he's killing people and taking over businesses, everyone respects him. Now that he cooperated, like my own friends were told, you can't go in her house, you can't have her around. She's not welcome. So at 19, it's like I'm trying to just become a kid, like growing up to find my identity. Do you hear that? That sound, right? That means that summer's officially here. It means that grown adults just sprint into the street for a frozen dessert shaped like a cartoon. But this summer, Mint Mobile has a better treat.

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33:39It's the new way to use ChatGPT for bigger multi-step projects. And when you need more than just answers, give ChatGPT work access to your apps and files, and it can create real work documents like spreadsheets, slides, and structured reports. Get started at ChatGPT.com by selecting work mode available on Plus and Pro plans. And do I even have an identity? Like, everybody hates me because of my father. So, fuck it, I'm going to be bad, right? That was my... And ultimately, we all wound up getting arrested in Arizona. And I had to make my own mistakes. And I guess being bad is not the way to go.

34:17But with your own mindset, it sounds as if you could be a good boss. Yeah. You know, maybe you should have been a boss. Would you have accepted your dad dying in prison and having the respect for that life if he'd just kept his mouth shut? Yeah. Yeah. I would have. But I also respect the other side of it because I got up close and personal, right? Like, I seen what was happening at the time. I'm not just a person watching from the outside. Like, I watched lawyers come to my father petrified that, you know, we can't represent you. John was going to control the defense, right? And they were telling the lawyers, basically, we have these tapes.

34:59John's complaining about Sammy. Sammy was out here killing everyone. We lost control. He's running all this rackets and garments and, you know, construction. So poor John Gotti lost control of Sammy the Bull. He's the vicious killer. And if anything, he could beat the murder cases and he'll get a racketeering. He'll do a couple of years, but there's light at the end of the tunnel. So the murders, the murders, he's going to have to take that.

35:29So what did my father do? He cooperated. I guess he just felt like I'm not going to kill him. So and now in retrospect, because when I sit back, it's like, who's really the rat? If you're going to make lawyers put these murders on my father. Yeah, you stood up like a man. You pumped your chest out. Everyone, you know, will celebrate you till today. But you're basically going to use lawyers to put Sammy away for the rest of his life. Well, you're going to fight your case. So if you want to use the word rat, you know, you're not a rat. My father can wear that because he got on the stand and he pointed the fingers, but maybe you're a closet rat.

36:06How are you when you watch it on the TV and your dad's doing that? You're 19, 20, no one's wanting to be around you. Did you feel safe? No, I didn't know what to think. Because now also like the people that I grew up with that were like my uncles, people that were protecting us, you know, they came to the house. They wanted his book of the money that's owed to him. My father was a huge Shylock, which means people, he lent money to people on the street. So people were collecting money and it's not coming to us. It's going to them. So, no, I didn't know. So that's why I was, you know, I was a rebelling kid.

36:44I was out. I was dating. You know, I was dating. I couldn't even like with Italian men. I was like, I don't want to date anyone in that world or in that lifestyle. I'm like, you know, dating guys in the hood. And like, I just took a whole other other aspect of like crime went into a whole other area. But it made me really have to understand just life in general and that life. I had no choice because I didn't know who was going to smile on my face. And then I didn't ever felt like maybe I would be killed because I felt like I was a woman. But my brother, I mean, he was 15. There was a hit put on him that he escaped by minutes.

37:20So if they're going to kill my brother, you know, why do I even want to be around these people? than a kid yeah but there was no loyalty now do you see that there was never any loyalty I interviewed Larry Mazza Larry Mazza was best friends with the Grim Reaper yeah Grice Capper they say he's got nearly 200 kills and he was cooperating with the FBI for years yeah like that there's got to be some blockage on that how can you let a serial killer do that damage but give him a free pass just for information Like, that doesn't make sense. Those laws are crazy to me. I grew up in the Italian-American mafia, right?

38:04Organized crime. But I realized there's also another mafia out there, and that's the federal government. And I see that, you know, by any means necessary, if they want to convict someone, you know, they're coming for you. And again, with that particular case, I just, yeah, it doesn't make sense. Because, you know, here's a man that's cooperating, but he's on the streets and he's just the Grim Reaper, right? And everyone knew of Greg Scarpa growing up from where we're from. It was, so it's, you know, it's a contradiction of, like, what exactly will the government sacrifice and, you know, like, do to get the people they want.

38:49Did you ever feel uncomfortable around any of the gangsters? Did any of them ever make you feel unsafe? No. No, a lot of people, especially in my father's crew, like, my father didn't hurt a lot of people. And a lot of people understood it in a weird way. Like, I still get that from today. Like, we can never accept it in our heart, but we knew what happened between your father and John. Everyone probably, especially gangsters, are like, he should have just killed him. And I guess it would have made everyone feel good at the time. and, you know, Sammy would have went down in history as one of the biggest gangsters.

39:24And, you know, I probably wouldn't be sitting here. Maybe it would be a different story, a different ending, but it just, you know, it just didn't go down that way. So... Were you still speaking to your dad, going through the trial, after the trial? No, after when he cooperated, I was actually the one in the room that was told. Me, my mother, and my uncle came up. And, um, my uncle was actually the one that set the meeting up between the government and my father. he was the one that the lawyers were coming to and saying they were petrified because they were okay you got to put it this way you have john gotty he's vicious as they come right he's the boss he'll kill you in two seconds flat but you have sammy the bull who's probably even more vicious and will kill you in probably a point second flat so john is now telling the lawyers you can't defend sammy it's everything's co-defendant meetings and this is the way the defense is going to go So they're scared, right?

40:17Because how can they not defend my father? So they're in the background telling my uncle, like, you know, it's kind of a big weight to carry if you're a lawyer. So Jerry Shargell came to my uncle and told him that John was going to sell him out. And, yeah, it was crazy when that happened. So I think a lot of people knew that story inwardly, too. So, I mean... Did you fall out with your dad? No, at first I didn't. I was very angry with him. Oh, so yes, that's what I was telling you. I got sidetracked. So when he called me to the visiting room with my uncle and he told me he was going to cooperate, I was devastated.

40:59I got up. I was crying. I was like, I'll never go with you. I'll never go into the witness protection program, which we didn't, my mother, brother, and myself never went into any witness protection program. We did move away. We moved to Arizona openly in our names after we found out there was a hit put on my brother. You know, my mother, she was always longing for that life of just being away from that world. So she decided to move to Arizona and I didn't go. At the time, I stayed back. Why? I just wasn't ready. Like, I just was so angry and I felt so betrayed. Because my whole life, like, this man that I know, like, I never seen that coming.

41:36Sometimes I'm still taken back by it, you know? It's, I still, I get it now. I understand. and like i said there was two ways out kill john or cooperate and you know he didn't kill john so this is a dark side of sort of the mafia or any gangster but how does it then when does the penny drop for your mom she would have obviously realized the life that she was in but you always you never really think that the lengths that would go to though you kind of i don't know if you're not oblivious but you kind of put blinkers on that it's never going to happen or everything and I'll be fine. Nothing's ever fine.

42:12But when did the penny ever drop with your mum? To think, what have I done? Because she's obviously done her best for you. But also on the other hand, it's not good for her kids. Her son's got a hit out on them. You're going down another fucking path, drinking and drugs and doing mad shit. They sort of failed you then at a point. And they've probably done everything that they could. But when does the penny drop that? You know, I think when my father cooperated, she sat with him when we were in that meeting and he told us and she said, Sammy, I was never part of your decisions in the street, and I'm not gonna be part of this now.

42:44You know, we love you, but I'm not... My kids come first now. Now I'm the protector, and I have to figure out what's best for us. So, um, we sat down, me, my mother, and my brother, and I was, you know, rebellious at the time. I'm not going. I hate him. He would call. I would hang up the phone. It was like, I just didn't want no parts of it. And, um, you know, we talked, and she was like, you had a great life like he was a good father whether you choose to want to have a relationship with him i'm not going to force you but i'm gonna go away i want to start a life here and you know she still is that way like she's just whatever my father's decisions are his decisions you know they're separated um they keep a relationship for me and my brother you know we're they kept a relationship throughout life.

43:34And, um, you know, she just is more of the mother, the grandmother now, because I'm a grandma. So the great-grandma. But she just, you know, she's a great mom, and we get it, you know? She's the one that really kept us, I think, grounded, because she was just real with us, and she was just supportive. Even when I was out there, she was... never turned her back on me, you know? I never, no matter how bad I was, I mean, I got arrested. The FBI went to my father in jail and was like, hmm. This episode is brought to you by ChatGPT. Hey, it's Bill Simmons from the Bill Simmons Podcast. Have you guys heard about ChatGPT work?

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45:35we think your daughter is going to be arrested with a bank robbery scam and some of my father's like jesus christ at least she graduated from petty larceny from when she was a kid but yeah it was some things that i went through and you know she always kept me grounded like you think you would have always went down that path if your dad didn't get to prison you know because no not at all it'd have been a different trajectory if he stayed yeah i like i said as when i was graduated high school i was given a florist um overnight the florist was a huge success i mean i was the house florist for like three big catering halls two huge funeral parlors i had every gangster in new york city and new jersey or wherever calling for flowers so um actually it grew so fast that i couldn't even do the work um if my father never would have cooperated because right when he cooperated that came down they took everything you know give us this take over this um i think the florist they didn't take it over they just shut it down but um yeah i probably would have been like a queen of flowers or something how was it for your dad knowing that his 15 year old son's got a hat on him and he can't do anything he said at that point it that's what like really fueled him i think to go even further because it's like he understood he knew who it was coming from he understood and it was like that's when he just was like i just want to walk away all together it's mad that it is madly it's obviously when you see the movies don't realize how realistic it actually is to actually real life that on the and the amount of killings that was happening and so many unsolved.

47:15Right. You know, I think now it's slowed down, which, you know, good. I mean, you never, I think there's other different forms of gangs or this or, you know, different things. It's just a whole different world. Um, but I will say back at that time, it was those men, especially the ones that the generation where I grew up in really, um, respected the rules. and it was leave women and kids alone. And most of the men that got killed in that life were part of Cosa Nostra. They all took the same old. But in that era where the suits and them drinking, the smoking, the money in the pocket, the women, like it is a sexy era, you know, the respect don't harm old people, women, children.

47:59The kids now, everything's went a bit gay. Everything's went soft. Like there's nothing, the men then were men. Right. You know, they were respectful. They looked after themselves. I'm not condoning all the fucking murders on the other show, but there was an elegance there. There was something about that life where people do it. You can see why people wanted to be involved in it, because it looked cool. Even when you watch it now, you think, fuck me, they're cool. Their hair, their suits, everything was immaculate. That's not, you don't do that anymore. That's all away, that's gone. Everything's soft, everything's feminine.

48:31Yeah, it's, you know, now it's like, now you have internet people all over the place, which is a whole new world. And even my father invited there. I looked at that world growing up as, like, such power and respect. And, like, you know, it was so secretive. And now it's like I see all these people getting online and they're talking about it and stuff. I wish that we still had where it was, like, so mysterious. And so, you know, it's changed so much. And some people are out there, you don't know if you can believe them or not. And it just became like, you know, now you have all these gangsters on social media.

49:06fighting with each other, different things. It's just, it became so different from what I've seen growing up. Yeah, it was the organization. It was the spirit of dying for someone and killing for someone. Like people think they're gangsters. There is only a handful of people who are top men all around the world, from some of your Colombians and your Americans, even England. They're not really gangsters. There's maybe a couple of bad men who do a few shootings and a few stabbing. The Mafia is a totally different ballgame. It was a well-run organization that people were terrified of. They run America.

49:41But what they'd done in America, they controlled everything. Right. And how it came crumbling down. Listen, it is sad because everything has become soft and everybody gets away with too much. Right. Sometimes a fucking slap behind the head could actually sort things out. Right. But when you actually break it all down and look at it and understand these stories, it's scary the levels they took it. Right. The five families, it's madness how much control they had. It was organization and respect. So, you know, and, you know, even the chain of command, it wasn't, you're just not gonna get killed. Like, even there were times where things would happen, and these men wouldn't just go kill someone.

50:18You know, you were called in, you were talked to, you were taught. Like, you know, these men, the people that came in that world, the older people taught them, they trained them. It was respect, respect women. You know, you don't do certain things in life. If you, you know, it's not like that no more. I just don't feel like, maybe it is. I'm not, I don't know because I'm not there. But from what I hear, it's just different now. Kids are different. People are different. Also, like, we had The Godfather, right? Like, that movie came out and it was, like, so intriguing, right? So Hollywood portrayed that lifestyle.

50:55I mean, the first two or three was, like, to a T. Like, I remember the old school weddings that were like that. And, you know, I think it merged with the streets, but it was also family. You know, I remember going to Paul Castellano's house. My father went in the other room and he's talking and I was in the kitchen with his wife, you know, baking cookies. So it's like, it's just that world of like, there's such darkness around it. And yet it's like so much family. When I remember, I think someone was being inducted into the world. They had one of their ceremonies, and it was at my father's house in Legget Place, Staten Island.

51:32And we were told we had to leave the house. We're like, why do I have to leave? You have to go sleep across the street, right across the street directly, which was my Uncle Eddie's house, my Aunt Fran. So we're there, and it's like, oh, we're going to have this party and whatever. So I'm like, why can't I go home? Why can't, like, you know, I was the kid that asked questions. That's one thing about me, why I think I knew so much. And even after my father cooperated, it's like, I had to know. So I was always intrigued. Why can't I go home? and at the nighttime, my cousin and I are peeking out the window, and here comes the dark limos pulling up, and people running right into the house, and they're taking off.

52:03And I'm like, what the hell is going on in there? The next morning, we went, and it was fully catered. They had cannolis. I'm like, what happened here last night? My mother's like, shh, don't ask. It's your father's business. And it was just so like, it was like something that you would see in the movies. Does that heighten it when Godfather Goodfellas, because that then glorifies it people then understand the life because there was never any movies they're little real life documentaries yeah you know like they were spot on like you said everything was perfect how everything the ups and the downs and new members and people getting killed the backstabbing like it was fucking perfect but does that then glorify it to then everybody's want to be part of this yeah definitely i mean all those my father was You know, when The Godfather 1 came out, he was just like, yes, this is my world.

52:52You know, I don't care what he says. He loved it. We watched it. You know, we... It was... You wanted to be part of something. And, you know, if you bring it back to really what the mafia stood for, it was, you know, back in Italy and stuff, Cosa Nostra, this thing of ours, they protected their communities. And, you know, when they came here, they didn't have money or they didn't have... They were, you know, immigrants that came over, so they started their own rackets. And, you know, from where they came to what they built, like controlling the construction industry in New York City, because they controlled the unions and this and that, it was perfectly done.

53:30And it was, you know, it took care of a whole community, like Italian Americans, whether they were in that life or they weren't, they knew someone, they wanted to be part of it, and they felt protected. And that's the thing, bringing it back to where my grandfather, like, my father came and seen all the gangsters on the corner, and he's, like, you know, wanting to be like them. And my grandfather, they had a dress factory, him and my grandmother, and he's like, they're bad people, but they are bad people. They take care of us, but you don't want to be like them. And, of course, it intrigues you, you know?

54:00And it's just, you know, there was so many good movies that portrayed it. And I think, like, even if you bring it to The Godfather, right? where he kills Fredo. It's like, I know situations like that in real life. You know, I know someone that was very close to me that died. I also know someone that was very close to me that father was, grandfather was very big in that world and he wanted to put a hit out on his son because they weren't, his son was involved in that life and he wasn't following the rules that the father felt he should follow. So, you know, it's very deep when you go into it and you start to really understand.

54:42Because even the horse, horse's head in the bed, I'm sure it was, is that not Frank Sinatra? When he wanted a part in a movie and someone cut the horse's head off and put it in the director's bed. I never, thank God, I never found a horse's head anywhere or something to that effect, thank God. But yeah. So your dad's in prison, you're in your 20s. Did you then go off the rails? Yeah. What were you taking, drugs, coke, booze? I was in some ecstasy. I was out in the streets. It was like ecstasy, yeah. Ecstasy kind of hit the scene. You know, I was in the club scene. I was like, coming from this mafia, like, family-oriented thing, and my father's gone and I could be out all night.

55:19Like, when he was home, I used to have to sneak in and out. Now it's like, she can't tell me when to come home. I'm not listening to no one. And I'm in Limelight, Sound Factory, all these places. And it's like, life started just spinning. And it's like, I started to... I kind of shy away from even just like my culture, Italians and meet other people, right? Like New York's a melting pot. There's all different types of people. You can go to Spanish Harlem, you can go to Queens, you can go anywhere and just meet different people. And that's where my brain was at at that time. Do you think the drugs and stuff was an escape or were you just trying to enjoy your life and just detach from what you've been through?

55:55I was never an addict. So it was just more like I'm a kid going to clubs and ecstasy was all the rave back then. And it was short lived. it was for a couple years but it was definitely an escape you know it was like i probably leaned like if my father was home that would have never happened like it was just never and i was i'm such like a overachiever like go-getter when i want to do something like i would have been in the florist i would have probably been like we can open this floor so we i would have been focused on that being that he's gone now it's like and i was a kid i was 19 20 21 i was just running the streets when did you start speaking to your dad again um so when he came home from prison we would we started talking briefly um but i was when my mother moved to arizona i was running a weed service in manhattan an all-girl marijuana delivery service um we were going to like every building and the weed service like anything else started getting robbed and things started escalating so So I just, I'll never forget, I went to Vibe Magazine, which was like a magazine at the time.

57:00And the guy that used to call us to deliver weed, I used to go by the name Gina. So remember, I'm not like, Sammy the Bull is in the news all the time, right? Everyone knows that name, but I'm Karen Gravano. Like, people really didn't know. Like, you think Sammy the Bull back then, it was like, Gravano, like, you didn't really know the last name. And then I was never in the newspaper. so when we did the weed service we had to go by different names so here i am thinking no one will ever know who i am and i'm running around and i go to deliver and right on the front page is like my father's picture and like and the guy's like hey and i'm talking to him and i'm just you know i'm so used to seeing my father in the newspaper at this point i'm not even like looking at the the picture um and he's talking to me and and i'm like all right and he goes here i want to give you some tickets to the show.

57:46I'm like, okay, thank you. So as I go to get up, and mind you, I visited this particular customer multiple times. And he goes, all right, Ms. Gravano, I'll see you at the show. And I go, all right. And I was like, what are you doing? I turned around. I go, wait. He goes, I know who you are, Karen. And I'm like, oh. He's like, look, your father's on the cover of the newspaper. He's like, do you think it's the smartest thing for you to be out here doing this? And I was like, I mean, why? He's like, because I'm going to tell you, when shit hits the fan, you're gonna be the one whether you know it's just your your face is gonna be it's like i've met you and i've talked to you on so many different occasions i just think you're bigger than this and you know everyone's out here everybody's got to do what they have to do but when it all comes crashing down you're gonna be the one and it just stuck in my head of course i didn't stop right then and there we were pretty big you know service i mean we were delivering to all like diddy and this person that like, I mean, we were like at all those parties, that's where it kind of started shifting.

58:45And then it started becoming, everyone knew I was Sammy the Bull's daughter. I go in and it just, to me, I was like, I started thinking like I am bigger than this. Like I, I don't, you know, I mean, we were making money, of course. I've been making money hand over fist with the weed service and I was, we're not really hurting anyone. Right. But then of course weed goes into, we could sell ecstasy or we can, you know, and it starts escalating. And then now it's like your service is getting robbed so you're an all-girl delivery service we need muscle so now we start bringing in men and it's just started getting a little rough and I was just like you know what I had gone to Arizona and my father was out there right he had just come and we sat down me and him talked and he had told me he was going to write a book and I was just in my mind like he had a construction business going my brother had a restaurant and here I am in New York going to clubs, selling weed.

59:41And I was like, am I going to do this forever? So he's like, what do you, and you know, true to Sammy, because he's very, what are you going to do with your life? Like, I don't, I don't know what you're doing out there. You robbing banks. What are you doing? And I'm like, I'm living, I'm surviving. It doesn't matter. You know, I said, okay, well, you, you, I can't stop you and I'm not going to. Whatever you choose, I'm always going to be here to, to pick up the pieces, but don't you want more? Like, what, what would you want to do? And I was like, hmm, maybe I'll go to school for skin. I like doing skin care and stuff.

1:00:13And he goes, well, if you come out here, I'll pay for you to go to school. I was like, I'm not coming out here. He's like, what is it? It's six months. You go to school six months, you take the license, you go back to New York, you do whatever you want to do. You commit to me for six months, I'll pay for you to go to school. And I'll buy you a new car. Deal? You know, so he always had a way of trying to make it better. Yeah but you seem a stubborn bastard though You seem as if you've totally rebelled Because of the life that you've had The flower shop, the respect Walking down the streets, everybody doing whatever they want To then getting stripped away from you And you've kind of rebelled against your dad And everyone that he's took away that life But no one's ever really stopped you from doing what you wanted Because you were always an entrepreneur Your grandparents always had shops Your dad had shops and businesses You always had that mindset It's just you've hated him so much Yeah I was rebelled that yeah so you thought fuck it i'm just going to do everything against him right you know when you've had the mindset because even speaking to you you're calm you're pleasant you could have achieved anything you stuck your mind to how did you end up so how did you start the weed then how did that come about so it's a funny story one of my friends at the time she was dating this guy who had a weed service and you know she was the best girlfriend she organized everything put it in a So they have beepers.

1:01:33And it just kept growing in the city. Like, everyone... No one wants to go to a weed spot, right? Like, if you're living in Manhattan and you're a doctor, everyone smokes weed, right? Like, it's a thing. Most people smoke weed. I don't, actually. But a lot of people at that time and now, too, probably still smoke weed. So they would just call. And she organized it for him, everything. And then he cheated on her. Yeah, so she had called me. She had a house in the city on 39th Street. on the east side. And, um... She was devastated. He cheated on her. You know, of course, fuck him, we'll go out, when we do this.

1:02:08So we go out of a night of drinking and this, and then I'm like, so how much money was he making? You know, we sit in there and we're starting to go... I'm like, wait, you used to make$3 ,000 a day? Like, how... Where'd you get the weed? She was like, oh, no, I have the Kinect, I can get the weed. Okay. So it just... just started clicking. So we go home, you know, and the next morning, I'm like, I think that we should do our own weed service. Just think about it. These guys are driving around on bikes delivering to buildings. We're women. We could get dressed up. We all have cars. Nice cars. You have a Benz.

1:02:42I had, at the time, a Lexus or a Maxima or something at the time. We could go. No one's going to suspect us of selling weed in these buildings because, you know, they're coming to all high-end buildings in Manhattan. Who wouldn't want us? She's like, well, how are we gonna do it? I'm like, you have all the numbers and the addresses. You organized it. So overnight, we sent messages out to all the people. We called all the numbers. And we said, this particular weed service shut down. Here's the new beepers. And it's called Exotic Touch Deliveries. Exotic Touch, right? And we gave them all the new numbers.

1:03:20So I'm like, okay. And that night, I actually had a boyfriend in Staten Island. So I'm sleeping in the city, and she's like, all right, we're gonna do this. We're all like, we're doing it. By 12 in the afternoon, I'm like, beep, beep, beep, all the beepers. I'm like, this really worked. Holy shit, we have all these things. So now we're like in a car, her and I. We got the weed, you know, the night before, but we had to go get more. And we're just, yeah, we just became an overnight success. So it kind of worked. She stole an X's printer. My first two businesses were overnight success. the flower shop because my father was a gangster and then this flower shop were weed delivery um but that's your mindset though and anybody even the high-end dealers even the boys who do the most graft they could put their mind into anything whether they're selling toothpaste toothbrushes and they'll be successful it's just there's something sexy about that life there's something sexy about doing stuff illegal there's something that gravitates towards i've interviewed i interviewed a man who was part of the ira killed people they called them the blanket boys they get tortured every day for 12 years he got released he says i'm done with the ira he went to america changed his life working in the casino got wife got kids he's got what he's always wanted peace someone came to him i've got a bank job he doesn't need the money he's he's doing amazing in the casino he's got everything and he accepted the fucking job it was one of the biggest bank heists in new york history and he ended up getting life in prison he ended up he got pardoned in the good friday agreement but i asked him look why because there was just something missing when you're from that life it's the excitement because everything when you do things good or normal right it's like you don't feel anything right it's like always having that chase your whole life would have been chaos even though you probably didn't feel it it's just chaos anyway it was yes so there's obviously something missing for you to do weed when you could have done anything i know i could have i'm like no we're selling we're we cheated on you let's steal his business and that's what happened how much were you doing a day a lot you know a couple thousand a day we used to sell like 0.150s so much is that for twenty dollars ten dollars fifty dollars for like point one you know like one and a half grams yeah that's good yeah so like what the weed at the time was like hydroponics when it first came out 6 000 a pound and we're just flipping it how's the uk you've got different levels so you've got a class b class c class i think weed and hash used to be c class but i think it's now a b was a lesser sentence for weed so we had it we had it yeah so we had the hydro at the time which was an a class or whatever just and then we had mid-grade and then the low.

1:06:09But the low we never even, we just stopped doing the low. So it was like mid. What was the prison sentences for weed if you get caught? Oh, I don't know. I wasn't really caring at the time. I don't even know. I was just like, guess what? Now, in my mind, it's like the thrill. I blocked out that my father cooperated. I had my own shit going. You know, I started dating guys, and it was just people wanted to be part of our service. People worked with us. It was like, we would go to clubs at the time. the China Club and get a table, and, or, you know, and it was like, oh, those mafia girls. No one knew we were the mafia girls by night.

1:06:47But by day, we would, like, dress up in sweatsuits. And I always looked like Young's. I put a little hat on, I had a sweatsuit, and I'd go running up. So we were the weed delivery girls in the daytime and it shut down at midnight, just in time for us to be able to go to the clubs. So you became a drug dealer? Yeah, I did. I was a drug dealer. And then it went to ecstasy and a little coke, probably. But it's... So when I got out, after that happened, and then my father, he told me, you know, he bribed me to go to skin school. When did you get caught? Did you get caught? Not in the weed service.

1:07:21I actually left. The person that I was running it with eventually got caught and went away. But I was in Arizona for a while. I was pregnant. So after skin school, I came back, and I was just, you know, here. And remember, I was out in Arizona for six months. And as angry as I was with my father, just like part of me, they're like, I just missed him. And my family was there. My brother has this booming restaurant in Scottsdale, Arizona. And I knew people from here that actually moved to Scottsdale. So now I'm going out and like Scottsdale, Arizona is starting to become a scene. And I was like, my father was like, are you ready to come out here?

1:08:01And I was like, maybe I'll try it, but I'm not going to stay. That was always my thing. And then by the time I got out there, because remember, I went to skin school, did the six months, came back here for another year, then went back to Arizona. I was just going to go for a vacation. The weed service is doing great, booming, whatever. But I was going to take a little vacation, go to Arizona. And by the time I got there, I found out I was pregnant. So I called my daughter's father, I'm like, I'm pregnant, you know, we're ready to do this. And I'm like, my father, I come home, like, he doesn't...

1:08:31You know, I'm from a traditional Italian family where, like, you know, they have to ask the father and approve, and it's like all my cousins had those 500 people wedding, and, you know, the whole thing, and I'm like, okay, well, I definitely do... Honestly, in my family, I was always like the black sheep, the rebel, like, the one that just marched to the beat of her own drum, like, always. So I came to Arizona, and my daughter's father came out there, and at the height, my brother's now having this restaurant, and he just had a baby, and him and the baby's mother are breaking up, so he's starting.

1:09:06My brother never goes out. He's one of those kids that loves to cook and stay at home, watch movies. Now he's going out, he's calling me, going, I'm going to this club. So I'm like, let me see what's going on in Arizona. Get there, boom, I find out I'm pregnant. I tell my father and mother. What's your dad say? I think he was in shock because, you know, yeah, he was definitely in shock. Like, I just came home and I'm like, first I had to tell him I was pregnant. I remember I'm just here and now he has big hopes for me. Like, he's like, in his mind, he's like, I got her out here. We're going to put her to business.

1:09:37We're going to, you know, do all this stuff. And it was right when I got out there, I was probably out there like three weeks. I started getting sick, take the test. I'm like, I'm pregnant. I literally was like, I want this. This is what I want a baby. This is what I need to ground myself. Like, I felt like I needed something to just start to focus on outside of just like the craziness that I've been living for the last couple of years. Did you feel lost? What? Did you feel lost? Yeah. Yeah. And I felt like this baby was like, I needed it. Wake up, Cole. Yes. So I'm like, nobody's telling me nothing.

1:10:08I'm in the mirror practicing. Like, remember, they don't even know I have a boyfriend back home. Like, I'm telling my father. And I was like, had this whole thing, and you know, you see how I speak, and I could really present my case. And he always said I used to be a lawyer, so I'm gonna really lay it on. And he's laying down on the couch. He had come over that day. He's laying on the couch, my mother's sitting there. And I come, and I'm like, sitting down, and I'm acting all nervous, and he's like, you're right? And I go, I'm pregnant with a Black man's baby. He goes, oh. Right? And I'll never, like, it was just the only thing.

1:10:43because yes my daughter's father he's he's cuban and black and whatever and like you know i'm italian outside like what's gonna happen i'm pregnant you never met the guy so those are only words like outside of everything that i plan those are the only things that come out and he looks at me and he goes is this a random black man do you know him so i go no i know him and he goes how far along are you and i'm like i don't know i just i just peed on the stick and I'm pregnant. I'll talk to you later." He just gets up and he leaves, and my mother's just like in shock. Like, she's sitting there, and I go, you think he's gonna kill me?

1:11:17She's like, where's your boyfriend? He's not here, is he? I'm like, no, he's in New York. Tell him to stay there. Tomorrow you're gonna go to the house, you'll talk to your father. And honestly, it was probably one of the best conversations I ever had with him. Because I think that I was able to say things that I was holding in, and you know, I was honest. I said, look, I'm running around, I'm rebelling, I'm going through all this stuff, and I really feel like you know I want to have a child and he's like you know I want you to have a child too like but I want to make sure that you know I would have wanted it traditional but I want to meet him is he a good guy you know he started asking those questions and he's like listen as far as race like whatever I support you and whoever you love I'm gonna love if they're with us they're with us and that was just like you know it was I was ready so I hit David came out and that is then David?

1:12:06Is that his real name? Yes, that's his real name. He came out to Arizona, and we just, you know... Was he not shying yourself? Shying himself to meet your dad? Probably a little. Yeah, I think he was... How the fuck do you go and meet a hitman? You've got his daughter pregnant, and you're not even married. No, and then my thing to my father was like, he's like, well, what does he do? I'm like, well, he was in prison for like, you know, six years. God, it's getting worse. He went to prison, and... We love Dave. He's still part of the family now. My father and, you know, him, when he came home, we had a relationship.

1:12:42And then we all wound up going to jail for selling ecstasies. But do you think because you'll be very manipulative, you are very on it. So even though speaking to your dad, you've had that free pass there. You've let me down. I've lost my business. You went to prison. You've spoke out. You probably laid it on thick to all the shit that he's done years ago to try and get him to feel sorry for you that you're pregnant. Yeah, no, he was really okay with it. I think that in his mind, he also knew that I needed to come out there, you know? And he always feared, not for me, but for my brother to be in New York and maybe with me being back here.

1:13:17Because again, there was a hit put out on him when he was 15. He moved to Arizona. Maybe he always felt like maybe Gerard can make his way back to New York too. And he just wanted his family out there. and you know there's always that narrative I see a lot of people because listen everybody hates my father right like in this world not everybody but the people they always want to point the finger at Sammy let's tell a story about Sammy he's a gangster he's a killer he's a drug dealer he's this and you know they tell these stories on their podcast and stuff but the narrative of him and the ecstasy situation is so far you know and like you had said earlier with the guy that was in the IRA Sam Miller yeah the IRA When we went to Arizona, remember, I'm rebellious, right?

1:14:02And my brother's going through his stuff, and people come, my father's book comes out. It's a New York Times bestseller. And like, he probably to date, I have to honestly say, not just because he's my father, did one of the most iconic interviews about the mob with Diane Sawyer. Like, everyone's like, wow, okay, now we understand Sammy. and it was like people started coming to the restaurant because they knew who Gerard was, they knew who my father was. And instead of us protecting what we had, it was like we opened up, oh, you want my father's autograph? So these people weren't like what we were in New York.

1:14:34I wasn't allowed in people's houses. They were told not to be with me. Now it's like all these people want to be around us and maybe they weren't living the best lifestyle. They're selling drugs or they're doing this and we understand that, right? So we pulled that in to us. and my father had found out that Gerard was selling drugs because I told him, because I started fearing that Gerard was going to come back to New York and get robbed and killed, right? Someone's going to rob him. He's come there with 100 ,000 and who wouldn't want to shoot him in the head and say, I killed Sam and the Bull's son and make a name for themselves and come up 100 ,000.

1:15:07That's how it is out here, right? And I understand that lifestyle. Gerard does and my father does. So when I told him about it, I think he thought a way to save us or control us or maybe coming up coming on our level was to say, listen, I don't want you to go back to New York. I'll fund it. Go get it somewhere else because my brother owed money and whatever. You do it once, twice, you're in, you're out and you're done. Should he have said that? No. but he's a gangster and you know that's his mentality of thinking and that's what happened and you know i don't know many people that are in that lifestyle when these things come that way i think he thought that he was going to be able to protect his son convince us to just go in this direction and the people that we were dealing with were also being surveillanced and that's where this whole arizona case comes in and it was that was probably one of the most traumatizing things that ever happened because it pulled in my mother.

1:16:10It was like the United States government came in and said, oh, no, no, no, no, no, no. You got six years for 19 murders. You're an embarrassment. And we're going to, you know, take you down by any means necessary. So when we even went in to do our agreements and, like, talk with them, if there was a plea that was offered to us, it's like we had to do a universal plea. I don't know if you know much about, like, the system. So when a case happens, there's all co-defendants, right? And everybody can go in and say, I'm going to take it to trial. I'm going to take a plea. I'm going to do whatever. They didn't really have anything on my father except other people talking about him.

1:16:47And there was a conversation about money that he lent my brother. Okay, I'm going to fight my case because it's really just hearsay. I'm indicted on conspiracy because I'm involved in this too. Because, you know, we all got involved in the ecstasy. but I'm on like a wiretap talking about money. So I'm using use of an electronic communication in an illegal act. So I don't know. I don't even know what that is, but I was charged with it. My mother, they had her as the bank roller because my father, Bart, took the money. It was in my mother's house. So they created this whole narrative of this organization, right?

1:17:25Did we sell drugs? Yeah. Did my father know about it? Was he going to fund a deal? Yeah. But they created this organization where Sammy was the bank roller and he got involved in this and we were peddling ecstasy. So when the deal came, they had my brother, like he was being surveillance. He was on wiretaps. The Arizona cops indicted us. The New York, there was a whole other thing. The New York FBI and the feds superseded the indictment and arrested us here in New York. So they have two cases. So now the lawyers are saying, Sammy, if your son goes to trial and he blows trial, he's going to get 45 years.

1:18:03If he gets found guilty in the state and he gets found guilty in the feds, the feds said they're not going to run it concurrent. So if he gets 10 years in the state, he's going to have to do those 10 years, and then the federal time will start. And if he does 10 years or 15 years in the feds, he's looking at 30 years, 40 years, you know? So what do they want? My father says, they want you. And I said, I'm taking a plea. I didn't do anything. I'm not going down. I'm taking a plea. And they said, you can't. It's a universal deal. So it means everybody in the case has to plead guilty or everyone has to go to trial.

1:18:40And my brother couldn't win a trial. So we all decided as a family to come in and we plead guilty. And my father agreed to take more time. And that's really what happened in the ecstasy case. What did you get? I got probation. How many people? How many were involved? 45 people. Mostly everybody got dropped off the case. a couple of people went to jail with like my brother my brother my father made a deal that he was only supposed to take five years but they gave him an upward departure he got nine my daughter's father got nine nine and a half they both got so david boy was in it david was involved he's probably yeah he's like i'm back in jail well we have yeah so we had a beautiful daughter but at that time were you still pregnant at that time yeah i had just had my daughter so it's like I'm all fat, my mugshot comes at everyone.

1:19:30Yeah, it was just not fun. And that's the thing. I'm like this goddamn mugshot, of all things. It's all these important times in your life, 16, sort of 19, when you had your shot and then pregnant. It's all kind of been ripped away, the goodness, the purity of enjoying it. Yeah. You know, but then your dad wasn't really to blame the second time. But it shows you his strength from then, because what did they get, 18 years or something? He was going to take 12 years. They gave him an upward departure to 19, which because, again, the government was embarrassed and they wanted him to testify in a case that involved terrorism.

1:20:09This guy, Bosco, who was involved in the World Trade Center bombing in 93. He was the guy that my father paid to bribe the juror for the Gotti case. Anyway, I guess they found this guy and they felt that he had terrorist papers on him or whatever. and they wanted my father to cooperate. And because of this whole situation with the ecstasy, he was in jail. So Andrew Weissman, who was the U.S. attorney in New York for the Fed case that they superseded. Oh, no, he wasn't. We weren't superseded yet, or they weren't superseded, my father and my brother. They were coming out to Arizona, and they told Sam, they told my father, I call him Sammy sometimes, but they told Sammy, this is an embarrassment.

1:20:55You know, this is an embarrassment to us. So if you come in, we can make it all go away. Just, you know, tell on your kids, your son and whatever, and we'll make it all go away, but you're going to have to testify for us in this case. And my father refused. He wasn't going to cooperate against us. He took the blame, so they felt embarrassed by that. So they were like, okay. They superseded the indictment, arrested him in New York, and said, now you're buried. So they tried to get your dad to make a deal against you, how would you have felt then fucking that would have been I knew he would have never did that but were you not suspicious that you know what he's done it before I definitely knew that that wasn't it I knew why he cooperated against Gotti but does that not make you feel better then that you actually done a 20 stretch with not giving names does that give you a little more respect because it must be listen I like your dad I think he's fucking sound I'm not from that life so I just love the old stories and all that shit but like he is proper gentleman made me feel welcome and he's still fucking dangerous I don't care what anybody says these people have still got that killer instinct no matter what fucking age they are you know you see these people disrespecting that people haven't lived that life like social media is mind boggling to me like I get shit but not 8 years I've done this and not one person's ever said anything negative on the streets you know it's just mad when you see it because these men were proper in their time you know but when your dad ended up doing the big sentence could did you feel sad because he was getting a little older or when you kind of i think geron my brother and i held a lot of guilt and um you know now i'll argue with him i'll be like well it was your fault that we have wound up in arizona so i think it's just life you know life lessons and i and i always say this because there's no happy endings right like i don't think anyone that i know in that world walked away and and, you know, just happy, right?

1:22:54I see people that are still fighting for their grandfathers to come out of prison, or, you know, just people who buried their family, like, you know, that whole grudges, and as they should. Listen, I get it. But I think that world, when it was the height of, you know, all these men, it was glitz glamour. Everybody turned their cheek the other way. You know, we're at parties, we're getting gifts, everything was fun on vacation. But then when it comes crashing down in your household, It just rips through everything. And I think that this was his thing. He couldn't walk away from that no matter what.

1:23:30Even those 19 murders and the Gatti, it was like he had to face the music, and this is what it was. And unfortunately, it had to be because of us. But reality is, like you said earlier, life would have been different. When he cooperated, it kind of just altered everything. and I used to be mad at him for it. I was angry. I was like, it's your fault for this. And reality is I had to sit back from me and be like, what's the lesson here, right? Because now I have a daughter and I have a nephew. And I don't want my daughter to be angry at me for something and jump off the bridge. I have to sit back and say, you're responsible for your own choices in life.

1:24:12Because like you said, I probably, with the tools that he gave me at such a young age, could have been anything that I wanted to be. how is it looking at your daughter and thinking the life that you've went through to then thinking if she ever went through half of what you went through like it is scary because you don't realise it until you have kids and you start questioning like fuck me like I would never have them go through that life like how when you look at your baby and you see that what you've actually been through like I say you're oblivious it's chaos you've got parties you've got murders you've got police everything's madness but would you ever have your daughter lead that life that you had No, I do everything to make sure that she don't.

1:24:51I mean, she's definitely strong-minded. She's like, she's definitely her mother's daughter, but she's on a different path. And that brings us to, like, the whole TV era, right? And she's just like, she was so young when Mob Wives started, so she didn't understand. And we did Mob Wives. It was six seasons. Um, the show was over and the network came back to me and said, we want to do a show, Families of the Mafia. And now my daughter's old. Or, she's in her 20s, and, you know, We want to kind of follow the aftermath of that and how it affected you and how it affected her. So we... And my father was involved in the show.

1:25:25You know, I asked him, can you please do this for me or whatever? And the show went for three seasons or two. And we weren't canceled, but my daughter came to me and she said, Mom, I don't want to do this no more. Like, I don't care about the mob. Everyone's like, you're great-great-grandfather. And she's like, it's not my world, right? And I'm a businesswoman. And she's amazing. My daughter works in Merchant Cash Advance. She's in finance. Like, she's a beast in her own thing. And she's like, I don't want to come on TV and keep talking about the same story. Like, Grandpa told his story. He talked about it on MobWise, and now we're here again.

1:25:59And I had to respect that, you know? How did MobWives come about? Because it was a very successful show. That was successful. Harvey Weinstein was behind it before all his madness. But how did it come about? So, um, Jennifer, which is Renee's sister, she had called me and she said that she was working with someone that wanted to cast a show about women whose husbands went to prison and what would I think would it be a good show and she's like what do you think about Drita I was like absolutely she's a character like she's good TV she knows how to act very well and she's like what about Renee and I said Renee's a personality right like so we started talking and then I had come back to New York for her and I were talking we were working on something totally different and I was in the process of working on my book so she's like why don't you come we're gonna do a sizzle reel so of course I went and we all know each other we have so much history so we're just in the room which a lot of people don't know about Mobwise like everyone's seen me come back for the first time and everyone's like oh my god she's here but yet we filmed the sizzle reel we we pitched the show together we were all together So we kind of knew a lot of what was going to come out.

1:27:10So we do the sizzle reel and whatever, we leave that night. And Jennifer's friend was out to dinner with David Glasser, who was Harvey's number one guy at the time, at Nobu downtown. And they said, come have a drink or whatever. So we go and we're drinking and we're just laughing. We haven't seen each other in so long. So Drita's there, Renee, and we're just like telling stories. And we're like, imagine this show ever came out, People would think we're crazy. We can't tell this story. This can't happen. And we leave. And from what I was told was David had leaned over to Marvin, who was Jennifer's friend at the time, and says, what show?

1:27:51What are you guys doing? They said, yeah, no, they filmed a sizzle. They're going to pitch it. And he said, you need to bring that to Harvey. Like Harvey wants to do more TV. He did Project Runway and stuff. He's trying to get his catalog up. I think he'd be interested in something like that. So I had gone back to Arizona. I get a call. Like, Harvey wants to meet you, Harvey Weinstein. Like, is he flying me back to New York? Because I'm not going to keep flying back and forth. She's like, absolutely. So he flies us. I get off. We have a car. You know, this is Weinstein now sending for us. So I'm like, ooh.

1:28:22It was kind of fascinating. We went over to his office in Soho, over the Tribeca Grill. And he just came in. We started talking or whatever. He really didn't say much. He just stood up, he walked out of the room, and then they're like, he likes you. I'm like, he hates us. Right? We're not his type. He hates us. Like, whatever. And then the next day, they're like, no, Harvey wants to get involved in the show. So it went, you know, once Harvey gets, he's like, was the biggest in Hollywood at the time, he gets involved with the show and creates a bidding war and all the networks want us. And the show wasn't supposed to be called Mob Wives.

1:28:57It was called Connected. It was about women who are connected to men in a certain type of lifestyle and their husbands go to prison. Next thing you know, it comes back, they're like, Mob Wives. And I'm like, no, I can't do a show called Mob Wives. I'm, like, carrying so much baggage. They're like, no, don't worry. You show so much growth and so much, like, you know, it's like pitching it, and my vision of reality TV at the time was like, I don't know, I used to love watching the Osbournes, so I'm like, oh, it's gonna be fun. Like, I don't know, I didn't know we were gonna be killing each other.

1:29:29It's just that we have so much passion and we know each other for so long, so it kind of took on. But yeah, so Harvey gets involved. Next thing you know, we're in like 25 different countries. The show's a phenomenon. And yeah. How was Harvey? Harvey Weinstein. Yeah. How was he? So I always say that I never, you know, I don't think we were his type. We're not like, you know, six foot models. And he was, you know, but he was cool with us. Like, he met, like, yeah, we met him multiple times. He actually came on the pitch meetings with us. and I you know I get everyone says he's a monster and all this I never seen that side of him never creepy never no but like I said I don't think we were his type yeah but then again he was never creepy no I never had when you look at people who called out his name in the Oscars and all the big award shows thank you Harvey thank you Harvey and there was a lot of women who told lies about him as well a fucking lot of women and I'm not saying he's innocent by any means but it's just a me too movement.

1:30:31And there's a lot of people who were saying things that weren't through us. Like six women got kicked off the trial because they were telling lies. Harvey was a boss. He commanded attention. I remember telling him, Oh, we're doing a show about gangsters. I said, you're the real gangster. He laughed because he loved it. But, um, he would walk in a room and people would shake like Harvey's here. Do this. Like, I mean, so I think also there was an intrigue about him. But like you said, a lot of women... Thank you, Harvey. You know, like, it's... It's hard to say. Like, you know, I don't know. People say, I don't want to ever take away from what a woman went through.

1:31:08But I think a lot of it was kind of blown out of proportion in certain aspects. I just feel like, as a woman, when you're around powerful people, and maybe this is from where I came from, you just kind of always analyzed your situation and maybe don't put yourself in them. I don't know. I just never felt, um, I was never alone with him. There was never a time. No CD-ness, no fucking mad shit. No, he was never nude in the hotel room when I came in. No, it was none of that. So did you realize how big the show was going to be? No. How was that feeling? I just, so we came back and, um, I think because Harvey was involved, because he also hired his own PR, and it was just like the Harvey factor, right?

1:31:53It was like everything he does is big, and he was, you know, Hollywood royalty at the time. So we come back and we're filming or whatever, and I'm getting it. Like, you know, it started slow. I was in Arizona at first, they came out with a team, and like, I'm just kind of figuring this out. And then we come and we're gonna shoot the promo, where you see us all walking and they're playing the Big Big Bang. And we go into this, like, it was like a three-day promo shoot, But we first go into, like, where they take the pictures, the still pictures of us, and it's like, people running to us, like, what do you girls want?

1:32:30You want here? Here? Do you need anything? Put slippers on. I'm like, oh my god, like, we've arrived. It was crazy. And I'll tell you a funny story, which really isn't that funny, but... So, this only happens to me, right? So the show's going, everyone's getting their press and whatever, and Jennifer and I go out to Nobu again, because we used to go there all the time. and this kid that like I grew up with I knew remember I was in Arizona for 12 years before I came back so I knew him when we were younger he's sitting there and he's doing something with Ciroc right liquor so he's like oh here here take a picture and I don't know like we're in mob wives taking a picture with Ciroc but I'm still thinking he's my friend I don't I didn't get the whole like product placement and don't do this because now it's like don't hold anything unless you're gonna get paid for it, you know, one time.

1:33:18So, we take the picture, and we leave. We go to Greenhouse, New York, we're clubbing, whatever. The next day, Jennifer and I go, and we're eating dinner at a restaurant in Staten Island. And my phone's ringing, and I'm like, oh, who's this? So I'm like, hello? And it was always a joke for us. We're like, we're gonna be on page six. Like, that was the thing. The news in the... What is it? The post, page six in the post, is like, when they start talking about you there, it's like, you made it, right? So I answer the phone, I'm like, hello? They're like, is this Karen? I'm like, yeah. They're like, this is so-and-so from the New York Post.

1:33:52I'm writing an article on page six. So I remember I had my phone, I'm like, it's page six, right? And Jennifer's like, you're lying. I'm like, no, page six. Because, you know, Mob Wives had just come out. And I'm like, hey, like all happy, ready to do this interview, I'm gonna be on page six. And he goes, hey, you guys were in Nobu last night. I'm like, yeah, of course. Not Nobu, yeah, Nobu. He's like, you're a no-boolie. I was like, yeah, of course, we were there. And he goes, do you know? And he mentions this guy's name. And I'm like, yeah. And he's like, you took a picture with him. And I'm like, yeah.

1:34:24And he goes, oh, because you were the last person to see him before he murdered someone outside a nightclub. I'm like, I don't know him. Because I didn't know him like that. I'm like, I don't know him like that. And I'm like, could you imagine? Like, here we are, Mobwise, it's a huge show. It just came out, and my first page six was that I was with a guy who just killed someone outside. But we weren't with him whatsoever. I have no idea what happened. It just so happened that, and it wasn't right before, but it was earlier in the evening, we took a picture with this guy, and he uploaded it to whatever, somewhere.

1:34:59Because I don't even know if Twitter, I think Twitter had just come out. And yeah, that was my first Page Six. I was like, I can't win. I just wanted to be known for something else. Like, it was crazy. How was Big Ange? She's amazing. She, you know, she was one of those people that lit up every room she walked into. She was a good, she was a great addition to the show because you needed that. It started becoming so petty and fighting that you needed someone like Big Ange to kind of break all that drama. What did your dad say when you were on that show? Did he have any say? So, first I was like, I remember he was in jail.

1:35:34So I'm like, oh, I'm going to do, I'm going back to New York. I'm filming a reality show. Was that easier then? Yeah, because he wasn't, he didn't know what was going on. He didn't care. He's still like, because at that time... Did you play it down? Yeah, of course I played it down. I'm like, this is a little, I'm doing this thing. And he didn't, still to this day, like, I wrote my book. And he was like, what story do you have? And I'm like, what do you mean? Like, I went through shit, I have a story. So, um, I was telling him I'm gonna do a reality show. And he's like, oh, okay, whatever. He didn't even really know what reality TV was, because he's in prison for so long.

1:36:10And remember, he was in the ADX Supermax for so many years, where he didn't even get to watch TV. So he's like on another planet when I'm telling him this. Like, he just came out of the ADX. It was like perfect timing. And he was like, oh, okay, yeah, I'm okay. And then, he came out. We got picked up. I'm like, oh, I'm really doing this. And he's like, oh, okay. When are you gonna visit me? Can you, you know? And at the time, it was like, Because I'm kind of big in prison reform. I'm really helping someone come out of jail, but I really started to take an interest in prison reform and the First Step Act and all this stuff that was...

1:36:44So I was trying to help him get home. I was investigating, I was talking to lawyers. So every conversation I was having with him really wasn't about the show. It was like maybe... Remember, he only gets 15 minutes to talk to us. And he doesn't call every day, so it's like, he doesn't care what I'm saying about this show. All he cares about is what's going on with this lawyer? Did you talk to this person? And, um... Yeah, then all of a sudden, it comes out, and he's like, what the hell is this? He was... Because I think my opening line on Mob Wives was, F. Samuel the Bull, F. John Gotti, I'm coming back, I'm gangster.

1:37:21So, when the show started, remember, now all of a sudden, it's like, this is a real world, right? I'm really Samuel the Bull's daughter coming back to New York, and it's like, people weren't like what are you guys doing you're doing a show called mob wives like people in that world started freaking out not just because of me just because of the name like what's happening like these people that are really on the show are connected to people within that lifestyle so it was a lot of pushback a lot of pushback to say the least but i was like no one can stop me and when did you write your book 2013 12 12 yeah so you released that a year after right And I was working on it before.

1:38:00Oh, were you? That shows then perfect, because that would have elevated... It did. ...your name, its business, isn't it? It's very smart to do so. How was it writing your book? Where can people buy your book? So you can... It's on Amazon, Mob Daughter. Writing it was amazing for me, because I think I really started to let go of some of the anger. I blamed my father for so many things, and it's like, yeah, but I did a lot of things myself, too. So I had to start, you know, at that point, look into myself and start taking accountability. It was just like, honestly, it was just like a way for me to speak out loud, even doing mob wives.

1:38:37Like, remember, we never talked about the mob. Like it was never like if I was in the street and people say, oh, your father's like it was we didn't talk about it because it was secret. You know, even after he cooperated and he did his book and stuff, we were still very like I just never felt like it was my place to tell those stories. um but when i came out on mob wise it was like a free-for-all everybody has an opinion and everybody and it's like okay well here's my version of it you could believe it not believe it hate me love me i don't it's just me this is my story and that's it how was it after it when it ended because it was a six series yeah it ended in 2016 is that because of the harvey weinstein shit as well so it kind of was like the perfect storm um the show was a lot of money because there were heavyweight producers involved in it, you know, Harvey.

1:39:23Then it went to like, there was Electus, there was another company involved and it started becoming a lot of money for the network to make. So when they went to go back and negotiate the deal, I guess the producers wanted a lot of money and they were going back and forth negotiating, trying to get the deal. And then the whole Harvey Weinstein thing happens. So once Mobwise becomes his intellectual property, everything's seized up because it's, you know, he owns a portion of that. So we had to go through the company buying out his company, and it just put years and years of, you know, pushing everything back.

1:40:00And, yeah, it just never... They still, I mean, every day, like, oh, Mob Wives is coming back. And I think Jen and Renee like to say that a lot. I think there's so much wedge between, like, all the women now, and maybe they'll bring something back for themselves, or somebody will do something different, but it's not Mob Wives. Like even when I did my reality show, my father was on it. It was called families of the mafia. I put my daughter on it. There were other families, but it was in that genre, but it was something totally different. And then, so I kind of went from mob wives to that show. Was like Castellano's like granddaughter not on the show and Gotti's granddaughter, like, was that not awkward situation?

1:40:39Or is it all, it's the females they never... Castellano's granddaughter, who actually I went to school with, Nina Castellano was a really good friend. And, you know, I'll always say this. In that world, if I have to really take my hat off to anyone, it would be, like, the Castellano family and, like, the Gambino. They really conduct themselves true to that world. Like, you'll never see them suing or, you know, they understood that life. They understand what their grandfather, father, uncle, whatever is. And, um, they just carry on with life, right? Um, Nina was actually asked to come on the show.

1:41:15And I think she just went to go audition to like, I wasn't there and I didn't know, to kind of feel it out, to see what it was like. And from what I was told from the producers that were in that set when they were, you know, doing like a sizzle with her, they were asking about me, like, what about Karen? And she just loved me. Like, she's like, I love Karen. Like, we don't, that's our father's history. Like, they're like, well, your father, her father was involved in your grandfather's murder. And she's like, and that's gangster business. It's not my business. So they didn't cast her, needless to say, because she didn't come in being like, her father's a rat killer.

1:41:49Like, you know, that's, at that time, was what fueled the show, was all the drama. And then there's good old Victoria Gotti. So when the show first came out, she was like, oh, it's trash, and it's this, and it's that. And then she came on for a season, right? The season that I was off, I think, or I was coming back. She came onto the show, and... And I will say this, they may never like this or... No matter which way you flip the coin, Gotti and Gravano will be tied to the hip for his... You know, the story, right? That's what it is. So when I found out that she was coming on the show, I knew it.

1:42:30I was like, oh, she's coming on to bash me, and they're gonna create this narrative between me and her, and it's gonna... And, um... I just think we're so much bigger than that. You know, I think that... I don't care if she's on the show, but I'm not gonna... Like, Mobwise got away from the men's business, and then it was like, Team Karen, Team Drita, we're fighting over this. So I'm like, they're gonna bring this woman on, and it's gonna be about that. And it's just so... It's gonna put a... Like, so much jerk, cheap, cheap in our story. But that was a good story, like, for TV, it's a great story.

1:43:01But she wouldn't do it, because she said she wouldn't be put in a room with me. So I said, okay, well, if she's not put in a room with me, and if we're gonna go this route, I called up her brother's ex-attorney. He passed away now. And I said, I've been very nice to you guys. You guys called my father a rat and all this other stuff. And I never said nothing derogatory about your father, except that he betrayed my father in that. And I really tread lightly, because I have respect. And John Jr., I've never said nothing about you sitting down with the government and cooperating. So if she comes on this show, and we're going to go that route, all bets are off.

1:43:36And John Jr. sends a message back to me, and he'll probably die when he sees this. But the truth is, he sent a message and he's like, they don't, it's not, we were too big for that. So it never happened. She wound up leaving the show. Um, and that's it. How was it when your dad got out? Did you ever expect that we'd be doing podcasts and sitting down with Michael Francis? I cringe sometimes. I don't know what he's gonna say or what he's gonna, my father is like, and I have sat in rooms with many producers, people who have been around him. he, I always tell him I think like, I feel like I was like on the Castellano hit.

1:44:14Like the way he tells the story, he like brings you in like he could draw you in and he's very good at what he does like he's very real about you know, the things that he's been through so when he first came out I'm like, okay, like really? Podcast? This is what you're gonna do? And then I heard like some of it and I'm like okay. Sometimes I watch him and I'm like, what? please why did you say that or do that my father you know he's he's he's just sammy you know like you never know what's going to come out of his mouth and i and i love him for that but it has all changed days it is crazy to see that men sitting on podcasts you would never think it like the social media has damaged the world a thousand like it's fucking making people and i crave views sometimes i think i don't give a fuck but other times i'm thinking no i do give a fuck there's a massive contradiction all the time.

1:45:10Because I look at it, you see people dancing on their TikToks and setting up cameras in their kitchen. Men as well. And I think, what the fuck is going on? Like I'll scroll sometimes and I'm thinking, it's like a mental asylum. If you want to see mental health, scroll on TikTok lives. I know, trust me. You know, I think that my father was the first of like getting on there. Michael Frenchays as well, like doing it. Um, which Michael, you know, he was able to really spin it off into like a whole And he kind of has other businesses that came out of it. My father, he's working on a couple of things.

1:45:44But it's just, like, listen, most of these men are in the streets their whole lives, so instead of going back to committing crimes, or this is an avenue for them to make money, and that I respect. The thing that I don't is, like, you can't get up there and say, I'm a gangster, and I'm this, and then do a podcast and be like, just be open. Just be like, this is the new avenue to be able to generate money. What I don't like is, like, a lot of them, like, Most of them attack my father, because it's like, Sammy's the big name, or he's gonna. And it's just like, okay, I get it. But this is how it goes.

1:46:14It's just, it's when it gets so petty, or it starts to become so like you're lying, or it just, it takes away from me. This is how I feel personally, because I was, these men to me were like mythical characters in the mob, and they were strong and secret. And now it's like your guys are fighting on social media, which is weird. Yeah, no, it's crazy. Yeah. Do you ever think they'll make a movie about your dad? Yeah, I mean, I know that he's working on some things. And, you know, I think even Hollywood right now is just like all over the place. Like I'm watching, it's like a monopoly. Who's buying up this network?

1:46:46Who's doing this? And so many of the ways of the way stories are being told, there's like, you know, now everything's going to the phone. They're doing vertical. So maybe someday we'll see something. I mean. Do you have any regrets? Me? No. No. What's the best advice you've ever had? I think for people, just be comfortable in their own skin. And, you know, just, everyone's far from perfect. Everybody has to make mistakes in life. And just, you know, you can't carry someone else's weight. And I think, like, for me, I love my father because he was a great father. Do I agree with all the things that he ever did in life?

1:47:21No. But that's his life, his decision. I have to love and respect him for who he is to me. And I can't carry his baggage. You know, whatever it is, it is. And if people don't like me because I'm his daughter, Oh, well, you know, I don't really care. Would you ever change anything from the past? I mean, I would have, here I am and this is the way life, you know, turned out. And it's like, if I change one little thing, the path could have been altered in another direction. And at this point, I have an amazing daughter. I have a great relationship with her. I just, I'm a grandma. I'm a Mimi. I'm a Mimi now, that's what I'm called.

1:47:59So I have a beautiful grandson who, you know, if I would have went a different path and maybe never came back to New York, never did Mob Wives, I wouldn't have had what I have now. So no, I would never change anything. How was it being a granny? It's crazy. It's amazing. Everyone always is like, oh, you're gonna love your grandkid more than you love your kid, which I love my daughter. We're best friends. But it's great to have a grandchild because you get to give them back, and you're not, like, responsible 24-7. But it's amazing to watch your child love something and be a mother is amazing. When are you at your happiest?

1:48:31Probably when I'm around my daughter and just family and a couple of drinks in at the bar. I don't know. I'm happy. For the most part, I'm really a happy person. What's your plans for the future? So I'm working on a couple of things, you know, entertainment wise. But right now I have a spa in Hazlitt, New Jersey called The Body Depot. I've always, like I said, my father back years, I got my license in 96. So in 96, I graduated and I've been always in the background doing skincare and I really love it. So that's, I'm going to hopefully maybe open another spa. Do you miss it? The old life? No, because I feel like every time I turn on Instagram or something, I see a pop-up of something.

1:49:17I miss, I miss, um, you know, I think right now me being in New York, my mom being in Arizona, my father being out there, you know, I miss like the everyday. Sundays coming over. I think a lot of that has changed the dynamic. I came from like a traditional, we had to be at my grandmother's, all my cousins are there. I miss that type of life. I wish I could have that. I mean, I'm trying to build that with my daughter. We always make sure we get together Sundays, Saturdays, Sundays. But no, you know, just the, just the, the easiness of life in the world we live in outside of the mob and outside of like just everything I've been through, I feel like life sometimes is just so crazy.

1:50:00Like I miss that where you could go outside in the summertime. Like I grew up on a block where kids were outside playing kickball and you're out there until the ice cream man comes. Like I miss that world. Did you ever get therapy? No. You know, I didn't. I've never had therapy either. I like that mentality though. Fuck it, I don't need help. you do but i i don't see it as a weakness because people do struggle but i think like sometimes they can make it worse yeah relive in the past relive in the past relive in the past i don't see any brighter future and i think it's good to have a conversation if you're struggling or freaking through some shit but the book would have been therapeutic for you but i just i think it's the right idea just fuck off therapist you know they're just money grabbers yeah i think i think have to have a good support team and trust the people that you're around.

1:50:56And every now and then you have to just let loose and talk to someone, but it doesn't have to be a therapist. And usually the people that I talk to come from the world that I come from, so they're in my mindset and maybe they're not the best advice, but it's my advice and it's just what keeps me going. How's your relationship with your dad now? We're good. I'm here, he's there. Like I said, I'm probably the one person that's going to tell him about himself what if i believe this is right or this is you know wrong so but like i said he's my father and i think one thing life has taught me is you only get one mother and father and um no matter what the cards are dealt if they're good to you you have to love them back and like i said my my loyalty will always be with the people that are loyal to me what age is your dad 80 he's 80 oh wait i'm sorry his birthday's coming up he's gonna be 81 on two days, March 12th.

1:51:50Has any of the people your dad killed or anything, any family members ever spoke to you or reached out? You know, they hate me. It's like they hate me because I love him. You know, and it's just, I lost people in that life. Like my uncle was killed. He's very close to me, my mother's brother, in a very horrific way. And I have to live with that every day. So the reality is people that choose a certain lifestyle, it's their life, right? And that's people know the consequences. Now, if you're mad, like if my father, listen, if my father got killed tomorrow, he chose a lifestyle. Do I understand that that could be a possibility?

1:52:34There's been hits on his life. I'd have to accept it. Would I be devastated? Of course. I don't want my father to get killed, but I understand that that's what he chose. so when I say this to say if you want to be mad like let's be mad at a whole lifestyle right not just be like her father you know we don't like her because she her father it's just you know and most of the people some of the people that don't like me because of my father was involved in murders like we're involved with murders to people that mean a lot to me so it's just is a catch 22 but I don't stress it it is what it is like people have to find that they have to lay their head on that pillow at night.

1:53:10And I don't ever want to take away from someone that lost someone to that lifestyle because death is not good in any way, shape or form. But when you really sit back and try to analyze what it is and why it happened, it's not one particular person. Like you can't say John Gotti ordered this person's hit and Sammy did it, but we only hate Sammy because he cooperated. It's like, that's, that's where I kind of feel like you hate him because he cooperated, not because he killed your father. Sorry. I, you know, that's just how I feel. Cause when there are people out there that knew probably when they were out in the world and it was still uncle Sammy, it was still, you know, cause that's the world that they're around and they accepted it then.

1:53:54But after he cooperated, it became, you know, he's the most horrible person. And, you know, like I said, if my father, I don't, I don't, even the Gatis, like They're always taking shots or coming out, and it is like, you know, we're always gonna be bound to us. So they lost a lot. You know, they did lose their father, and they did go through stuff, and their brother was a target and went to jail, and, you know, certain things have happened. Um, I think we all could be targets of the government and stuff, and that's not to say, like, we didn't create our own scenarios. Like, that happens, but reality is, you can't just be angry at one person.

1:54:31How did you feel when you found out Gauti was dead? I was sad. You know, I was sad. I always wished that he would come home. I do. I did. And I always, you know, I always say that. I wish... I hated that... My father is a person that people say, oh, Sammy's responsible because he's in jail for the rest of his life. But there were gaudy tapes, and there was, you know, surveillance, and there was a lot of things that played the part into that. Um, but I always wished that he would be able to come home. Yeah, it's a mad life, the mafia life, but you've lived it firsthand. You know more than anyone, but like I say, you're a great talker.

1:55:11You've had a great life, great career, book offer, doing amazing. Thank you. Like I say, I wish you nothing but the best, but for anybody that's maybe just before we finish up, for anybody that's maybe in a life of struggle right now, what advice would you have for them? You know, there's nothing like you could hit rock bottom, but there's always, you're always going to come up. And just if you're struggling with something, you know, you have to dig deep inside yourself. Like it can always get better. Life can always get better. Sometimes you're in the darkest place and you think there's no light.

1:55:41And it's just like every day is another day. And there's nothing worth taking your own life or just, you know, sometimes doing anything that's really crazy. Everything that I've ever achieved in life, even my business now, like I'm the one that's there doing the facials and stuff. I have to work hard at it. So, you know, there's many ups and downs just stay true to yourself and keep pushing through so for people in the uk if they want to come over get a facial where can people book in for your shop is there a website is there yeah so it's called um the body depot on instagram and then the link to our website and the booking app is on there but it's um the body depot we do facials massages scalp treatments this is a very peaceful zen place so i have this crazy life and then i come here for peace and zen Karen listen for giving me your time today and telling your story I thoroughly enjoyed it I genuinely wish you nothing but the best for the future I think you're great and like I say take care God bless and hopefully see you soon thank you yes definitely