From Killer to Snitch - Mafia Boss Sammy the Bull

46:35I said, okay. He says, then take his ear off and bring it back to me. I said, okay. And I got in the car with Shorty and was leaving. I said, I don't have nothing. I could give this guy a beating, me and another guy. He really wants me to take his ear off, bro. For real? That's what he said. so they were very violent i'll give you another example when i was transferred over to the gambino family um and i was put with this guy tato orello he was a captain very powerful and uh he made me sit with him all the time and one day he said he would sit in the backyard he had fruit and trees fake trees you name it and he would sit out there and smoke a cigar and he said i want you to sit with me one day i got a guy coming in okay he said keep your mouth shut just listen all right the guy came in and he gave this whole argument about his friend he thought he was she he was making a pitch to the wife and trying to get with the wife the wife denied it so Tato told him alright don't do nothing go away and I'll call you in another day or two he called the other guy in the guy was in almost in tears he says I told the woman she's a good woman I said you're a beautiful woman inside and out he had a tremendous respect for her he didn't try to make her he didn't try to take her to bed and he loved his friend.

48:24It was misunderstood. He let him leave. He said, I'll get back to you in a couple of days. He said, if you were me now, what would you do?

48:38Get a couple of young guys like me, a couple of thugs, and we'll give his friend, for trying to fuck around with his wife, a beating. He said, good. I know you got balls and now I know you're stupid and it hurt me I love this guy and he says come back tomorrow I'm gonna have both of them here sit both of them came in it really was a big was understanding both of them literally hugging each other literally in tears the wife said it was he He never did anything. This guy took it the wrong way. That you're beautiful inside and out. So they left. He said, what would you do now? I said, I don't know.

49:36I really don't know. But you, right away, you would have gave that guy a beat. For nothing. you would have hit him for not he would have went into the hospital for no fucking reason other than you wanted to jump the gun if you want to sit in my chair someday you have to listen what boat is

50:04either somebody's lying the truth is in the middle or it's a misunderstanding before you make a decision to do something understand the whole thing fully You didn't understand the whole thing. You heard one guy's story and you were willing to give the other guy beaten. And that taught me a lot. It was different than the Colombo family. This guy was using his head. He says, it's not that we can't use violence, but we use that as a last resort. Not the first thing. So there was different teaching in Colombo. beat him up shoot him kill him cut his ear off these guys more business unions making money more compassion and it's not that they couldn't kill pulling the trigger whether it's a colombo family or the gambino family or that it's just how they look at it and that taught me a lot too so between my mother and father's teaching and car uh tato's teaching i became a different kind of a gangster i wasn't straight out violent i could be but i'm not basically a violent person i actually like people i'm a people's person i joke with people all the time i love playing with them.

51:36When the guy came in, I said, we got the same barber. Right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then when I said, if I don't understand your vocabulary, sometimes you have a heavy accent, I'll joke with you. I'll tell you, what'd you call me? What'd you say? Some bullshit like that. I enjoy people from different nationalities, different races, different religions. And I don't go by a lot of the things that people teach. I like people. I can see if I don't like you as a person, I wouldn't give a fuck if you were white, black, yellow, Asian, Mexican, Spanish, Swedish, Irish, I don't care what you are. I don't like you as a person, not for all those labels, of any of those labels.

52:23Did you think you had that then? Because everything's a gift. If you give someone a compliment, if you crack a joke, it makes people feel relaxed. Did you have that as a personality walking into a room with these so-called killers and psychopaths to make them feel at ease? Because if you make someone feel relaxed, same as interviews, they'll tell you a better story because they're not tensed up. Did you sense that you had that little gift? Well, I always told jokes. In the beginning, I told jokes because I was hurt. I was embarrassed in school. So I became a clown to tell a joke, have people laugh rather than...

53:04Laugh right through. ...at the joke rather than laughing at my... not being able to spell or do certain things. Everything looked different. Now, going into dyslexia, let me explain. Maybe some of the people don't even understand what that is. A person, one psychologist, gave me a piece of paper to read. with small print and um i grabbed it and i looked at it and and she said uh what do you think i said i i don't understand what do you mean you don't understand i said you have a blank piece of paper she gave me a piece of paper and a pencil and I scribbled on it and I said here take this she looked at it and I said tell me what that you know what's about she says I don't have the slightest idea it's just scribbling well that's what that paper you gave me that's what that looks like to me my B's look like a D uh eight looks like a three I don't I can't visually it's a dyslexic it is a visual thing not really a brain thing i think it's more visual now every time when a teacher would say what's that number i would say three everybody would laugh sammy that's not a three that's an eight i was wrong so many times that i started what's that number and they would look at it to me it looked like a three but i knew i was wrong so many times that i would just say even though i didn't think it was it's an eight yeah that's right i learned how to cheat the system i was embarrassed to say when i was young they they don't look like a three looks like an eight i think you're crazy but i knew it was me was crazy because when i when i say an eight it's a three everybody's laughing at me so i know i'm wrong i don't know why it took a while to understand and it's same thing with writing and and when you're dyslexic comprehension is hard so i'm not giving up i am selling the building The final season of FX is the bear.

55:43The restaurant is flooded. Everything's either going to be okay. Or not. We are outgunned and we are outmanned, but we have each other. FX is the bear. The final season. All episodes now streaming on Disney plus. This episode is brought to you by chat GPT. Hey, it's Bill Simmons from the Bill Simmons podcast. Have you guys heard about ChatGPT work? It's the new way to use ChatGPT for bigger multi-step projects. And when you need more than just answers, give ChatGPT work access to your apps and files, and it can create real work documents like spreadsheets, slides, and structured reports. Get started at ChatGPT.com by selecting work mode available on Plus and Pro plans.

56:32If I could read something and not remember the whole story. so you may be able to read it and say this is a story about this boy and girl jack and jill went up the hill to get a pail of water when i read it i don't know what they went up there for i don't know what the hell's going on so it's hard for me to kind of you know comprehend what the story is how does someone get transferred from one mafia family to another would that not be a red flag because the information you had about one family you could have took it to another family but how does that work is that a one-off or is it something that happens quite a lot that's a perfect thing you that don't normally ever happen because you know their secrets i went one time it's a whole long story so i won't tell the whole story but i went to kill shorty's brother he did something to me uh about me um and i went to kill him the colombo family found out that i went with a gun i i didn't get him but i was gonna kill him and uh they wanted to break us up but they thought i was a hundred percent right you were right to want to kill him for what he did but you went to his fucking house and knocked on the door his wife answered the door if he came to the door were you going to kill him yeah and you were going to kill him right in front of his fucking wife and kids yeah i was that hot well that's wrong sammy that's where you went wrong if you would have killed him in the fucking street we would have patted you on the back you were right but you went to his house and it's wrong we can't kill him even though we know he's wrong what he did because he shot his brother so somebody a guy named johnny rizzo who was a made guy in the family went to tato and it went up to carlo gambino the heads of the families talked about this situation um the columbos didn't want to kill me the gambinos didn't want see me get killed so they made a deal we'll transfer him he'll no longer be with us he did work with us meaning he killed with us he was in our war with us we trust him and we like him we'll release him with no restrictions if you want to make him a made guy or whatever you want to do with him that's fine we're not intimidated we don't think he's going to hurt us or give up any secrets or do anything i was transferred under those conditions and that's when the gambinos accepted me and from that day on i was with tyler and i always when they transferred me one of the head guys in the columball uh come my person goes brother alley boy persico senior grabbed me hugged me give me a kiss on the cheek and said sammy you're always going to be our friend but we wanted you to promise one thing you won't kill ralph and uh that's and you'll always be our friend i promised i wouldn't kill ralph i never did i shook his hand and i went with the other family that's their decision it's not me i don't have no part in the say in that but you're happy with that because it seems crazy that gangsters are getting transferred to other families it's not gangsters me yeah it didn't happen it wasn't a normal thing yeah it happened a couple times but it's not gangsters are getting transferred it don't happen they if they're chased it we don't want them with us then it could happen and usually another pyramid won't even pick you up because if you got chased, they don't want you.

1:00:36But in my case, it wasn't about that being chased, number one. And number two, it wasn't an everyday thing that happened. Yeah, I know you speak about you were involved in 19 murders and I don't want to mention names because I don't want to go down the same route as every other interview, but I don't want to upset people as well. But your first murder that you've done, I've spoke to a lot of killers and a lot of them were nervous, 99 % of them were nervous. You weren't. Why? I don't know. I don't know. Maybe fighting, maybe all the things, maybe being trained in the military. I don't know. I question that myself, to myself.

1:01:18And I said it a bunch of times. I watched movies. Guy kills somebody who's going to kill him. He kills him. And he's sweating. He's scared. He's nervous. He's this. He's that. I expected that to happen. I did the murder. I was done. We cleaned, got rid of the gun, cleaned the car, did this, did that, did everything. And I went to a apartment where me and my friends were staying, took a shower, and waited for that to happen to me. It didn't happen. I got dried off. I went to bed. I slept like a baby. the next morning i woke up little girls were up in the place and oh my god they killed joe colucci and this and that and it was in the paper and i remember asking one of the girls do they know who did it she said no they were investigating it but no they don't know and then they went to the corner and hang out i came a little bit later and when I walked there I was there standing right there but I almost had like an out-of-body experience I felt like I was way above them listening and they didn't see me and but I was able to see them it was a weird feeling um and what took me out of that feeling is that Shorty Spiller had pulled up got his nephew Tommy get Sammy come my person go watch to see him And I came at him.

1:02:58Shorty said, listen, don't explain what happened. You did a good piece of work last night. Let my nephew tell Carmine, because he was on the hit, too. Explain to him what exactly happened. You be quiet. I didn't say a word. He explained the whole thing. And we got in. Carmine, Persico, grabbed me, hugged me, kissed me on the cheek. he did a good piece of work patted me on the back so to speak and I left and it always bothered me why didn't that stuff I saw in the movie why didn't it bother me the only thing I could come up with maybe I was just a natural born killer

1:03:51Like I said, when I went in the military and I would have went to Vietnam, I would have killed. I had no hesitation about fighting for my country, protecting my family. This is, and now I was protecting Los Angeles. It was a different type of army. Maybe that's it. I don't know what it is. But I never had that feeling, and I don't know why. Because we talk about being a product of your environment. Do you think you always had that something in you? You would have been involved in that some sort of violence or killings no matter where you grew up? Well, my whole neighborhood there was killings all the time.

1:04:33But even if you weren't, do you think you still had something that's maybe ingrained from past generations or whatever it is to then gravitate towards being, like you would say, a natural-born killer? You would have killed in Vietnam. You would have killed in the mafia. Do you think you would have always... you had something inside you where... that's when you just went to? I don't know a person in my family, grandmothers, grandfathers, sisters. I never knew my brother because he died before I was born. Uh, that was dangerous. Or a criminal. No, not a one. My mother wouldn't... kill anything. I don't think she would step on an aunt.

1:05:17um my father was from sicily was a tough man but not a not a violent man so i don't know of anything as far as heritage and i don't really get into that because i think that psychologists psychiatrists that when they look into your past they look into this i don't know what it is I'm not a psychologist. I'm not a psychiatrist. I don't know. I knew kids who grew up that I hung out with. Were great kids. Flew pigeons together, played sports together, and wound up in the mafia and were pretty deadly themselves. Now, I've never known any past with them or their families that I know. I don't go back in their family, but I don't know what it is.

1:06:11I think it's the environment, again, that you grow in. Like I said about Max or some IRA guys,

1:06:22they grow up in an environment where there's violence. You go now to Israel and uh sorry certain countries that are fighting with them I forget their names hoodies or whatever they are they're fighting they're killing for different reasons I won't even talk about their reasons because I don't care but you think that there's going to be six seven ten twelve year old kids that are not hearing this seeing it feeling it some of those kids are going to grow up violent if that's what you believe you're crazy did you enjoy killing sammy no no no i was very efficient at it i was very good at it i used to use my head i plan things i'm a meticulous planner calculated teach let's say i was going to kill you argument's sake i would know everything about you if you're married who's your wife who's your kids where do you live where do you work where'd you go to school everything about you you want to come to a meeting today with sammy the but time.

1:07:52And I found the best place in the world to kill you. And when I did plan, you were dead. There was no way to escape. People would say to Street at one time, if Sammy's got your head, you're fucking dead. That became that I was a minute. it i planned it so carefully before i did something i wasn't just going to shoot from a car like some guys do how that stuggerish stuff um i was a planner and as a planner i would not rush i would plan your death how long would that take to plan a murder not long at all and i it's it's not only killing you it's i'm gonna get away with it i'm gonna have an alibi the team that's on it they're gonna get away nobody's gonna get caught so it was i was planning it as a lot of stages but it didn't take long it depends on who you are if i knew you it didn't take long at all.

1:09:09I knew all of your traits, all of everything you do. You go, you're married, you cheat on your wife, and you go to your girlfriend's house every Tuesday, eight o 'clock. I'm not going to kill you in your girlfriend's house, but when you come out, I know your car. I see where it's parked. How hard is it for me to kill you? The hardest thing now is pulling the trigger. Not for hit guy. So you're dead. Did you ever miss?

1:09:44Um, I missed a couple of times on purpose, but I never really missed. I missed a couple of times guys got away. Very rare. Because I interviewed an SAS man, and he says the majority of people with old guns, it says 90 % of them miss because they're all shakier, they turn their head up. Those ain't hit guys. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. But a lot of mafia guys aren't. I thought every mafia guy was a trigger man until I started speaking to people and understanding they're not. Because he says, because a lot of people turn their head in cars outside, houses, you seem to do it more cold, calculated.

1:10:22Yes. Where you are ruthless with it. Right. And I'm not trying to be ruthless. i'm trying to do you a favor i don't want to bang you all over the place and with punching you and kicking you and stabbing you and this i don't want all that for you i'm gonna hit you a shot right in your head you won't even know what the happened you will feel no pain you will die instantly

1:10:48and as far as that's i'm not ruthless like who wants to just bang you around and do all that bullshit i'm not into that i'm a stone cold killer as far as i'm gonna kill you i'm not gonna make you suffer um there's no reason for me to do that that is that

1:11:12because there's a murder that you talk you talk about and it kind of gets you emotional because then you seem like the perfect soldier for someone if somebody's a boss you you seem like the perfect guy you would want working with you you'd follow orders you do everything 100 % of your ability i think anybody with some sort of brains would see that and understand that but the guy who you says was like a samurai he died with pride he died with honor he took off his shoes but why did that affect you someone who's a killer who's basically can take lives without batting an eyelid go to sleep the next day wake up and eat breakfast as if everything was fine why does the guy who wanted his shoes off when you killed him affect you

1:11:56an hour or some time before he's going to die we talked he was in that van with me for you're talking about drudykies he was in that van with me for 12 hours and talked to me about a lot of things and uh i won't point all of them i'm i'm not allowed i'm going to do there's going to be a movie made about it so i'm all i'm limited on what i could say but let's talk about the shoes he asked for some favors and i conceded because he acted like a man under pressure to any favor he has uh then he asked me to not be found with his shoes I couldn't understand that and I asked him why he said my wife is stupid

1:12:54she knows there's a war she knows who I am and what I am and I always comfort her and tell her don't worry about it I'll die with my shoes off ultimately meaning I'll be home with my shoes off I'll die normal though I'm not going to die in the street if I'm found without my shoes she will know that in my last thoughts I was thinking of her

1:13:25and that blew my mind a 69 70 year old man wants to send a message to his wife to comfort her

1:13:38that he was thinking of her in the last minutes of his life I thought that was about as honorable as you can get it was a love story at that point to me between a man and his wife and uh

1:14:00I agreed and that's how he was found and uh what I said about everything with him is that he taught me goes in Austria in a whole different way a whole different light

1:14:22he taught me how to die like a man no whining no struggling no nothing

1:14:32somebody had told me well a guy named nick palagi told me that you know where you two were what samurais a samurai knows when he lost and wants to die with honor that's what he was doing

1:14:55an old girlfriend of mine told me recently not too long though anyway um when you grew up you had beautiful blue eyes and happy eyes you always used to joke and laugh and talk. We broke up. I haven't seen her for years. And then she came across me. She said, you know, I bumped into you once and your eyes changed. How? They were cold as ice. you changed something happened you changed I said when do you think that happened she said I don't know I'm not sure I think 1980 maybe and 1980 was the Johnny Keys hit so she may have bumped into me weeks or months after that and said I changed. I became hardcore.

1:16:09My eyes were fucking not happy eyes anymore. So

1:16:19that's environment. That's growing in an environment that changes you. It's not your mother, not your father, not your grandfathers. I was never sexually molested. I was never had all these bullshit things that some people have. Never. It was my environment. I was growing. Do you think killing someone does something to the soul? When you talk about the eyes changing, the cold as ice, there is a seat of the soul. The eyes tell a lot. Sammy, and do you feel now, hindsight's a wonderful thing, but everything that you know now, do you feel as if it does something to a man when you take another life?

1:17:00oh i think it does i think it takes a hunk of his i i died with every hit i was on a little bit of me not fully died i a little bit of me died there's something in the godfather michael in the godfather was talking in a room when he was taking over and all these gangsters with him the door was open and his wife was looking in and some guy came over one guy was kissing his hand another guy came over and closed the door people when they watched it oh they closed the door on his wife no the door closed on him he became a hundred thousand percent goes in Austria when that door closed. It closed on him to the rest of the world.

1:17:54That's what he was. The Johnny Keys hit, closed the door on me. I didn't have happy eyes no more. And I was cold as ice. And I was a fucking professional killer. I don't know about the soul. I'm not sure about that. I believe in God. but I don't believe in a lot of religions. I think they're greedy, selfish, and they teach a lot of bullshit. So I don't go by all of that religious stuff. To me, it's religious nonsense. But I do believe in God. Higher power? I believe in higher power, and it must be God that created all these things, created a woman different than a man so she can have a baby. She can support life.

1:18:51She makes life. We need, she needs our seed, but she makes life. She feeds it. It grows in her body. And then she plants their feet on the ground through her, not us. So there's a lot of things I believe in, but I don't know about a soul. I don't know about whatever. I don't know if there's a heaven. I don't know if there's a hell. I don't know. I know I'll find out someday. I think we all get to a point, to an age, and we're all going to die. So we'll find out. I'm in no rush to find out. I'm in no rush for somebody to tell me about souls, about heaven, about hell, what I got to believe in, what I don't have to believe in, what I should think and what I shouldn't think.

1:19:46I believe days are gone. The skies, the trees, I do artwork. I look at the sky, the sunset, the sunrise, and I am an artist, a little bit of an artist. And I look up and I say, who can make this art? It is so beautiful. Who can make ha have babies, make life? Animals. who can do all this how did it all happen now i don't know if there might be answers down the road i don't know me myself i think there is a god a higher belief or something yeah i'm the same i believe all religion listen if you believe in a religion it makes you a better person by all means that's amazing but for me it's divide and conquer how can it be so many gods and so many religions who's right for me there is a higher power as well i don't know what i believe I am guided and protected.

1:20:41That's my own belief. I don't think it on my own. I don't just think it on my own. When I was in prison, I was with a group of Native American Indians for the reason I wanted to smoke. We weren't allowed to smoke, but they were allowed to pass the pilot. Yeah. So I wanted to smoke and I joined the group. But I got to understand their religion. It's a path to God, different path. A friend of mine was in Wicca. the old religion of Wiccans. And he said, you're not an Indian and you're in that. Why don't you join us? We have classes. I joined them. Some things I thought were a little weird, but some things they had their own path.

1:21:25The Muslims have their own path. The Jews have their own path. The Christians have their own path. They all have paths to God. We're all killing each other, fighting over who's right and who's wrong. if you don't do this if you don't believe in this so i leave all of that out of my life you could all fight about it argue about it believe what you want to believe i'm cool with it if it makes you better person and makes you feel better do it i if i pray i pray directly to god i leave the religions out i think they all got a lot of money make a lot of money they do a lot of weird shit that they tell us not to do don't be gay there's a lot of priests who suck a dick rape the kids yeah and then a guy tells me a priest will tell me tell me your sins no fuck you tell me your sins these fuckers have got more than anybody I know I know so I don't get into none of that I mean I talk to you about it but I don't get on an everyday basis I don't get into that I believe in God Yeah, but it's good to understand it.

1:22:33And like I say, this is your life story to understand who Sammy is. It's not anything else. Everybody sees the world differently. I don't judge. I don't give a fuck what anybody's done because everybody's on different paths. Everybody's got different levels of trauma. Everybody's got different levels of upbringing. Because I've interviewed a woman. A man abused her sons. That woman went and got a knife and plugged the cunt, killed the guy. Killed him. A woman. Big heart. anybody can snap anybody's got it in them, anybody can kill anybody can love, with just certain circumstances in life you never know how your cards are dealt how hard is it Sammy for a woman to be involved in that life, how hard because we talk about masculinity and provide and protect but women seem to get the rough end of the stick with going out with someone who's in the mafia how hard is it to keep a relationship?

1:23:24It is hard, they got the rough end of the stick being married to guys like mate or mafia dudes it's not an easy life and uh they have to be really really strong put up with a lot of bullshit um but by the same token um i got a divorce a long time ago in 1981 i still uh take care of my wife till today she's sick she has copd i take care of her i will never stop taking care of her if i had a girlfriend right now i would hide it not that I have to we're divorced but I don't want her to feel hurt or the you know about it so I always have those things in mind and I think that makes me a different kind of gangster but another gangster who don't give a fuck about how she feels that's horrible I mean we cheat we fuck around we do a lot of things but you if you don't care about your woman or the women around you whether they be on your team or your friend or your sister or somebody else I mean something's wrong with you seriously wrong with you you know I'm talking about women protecting a psychologist in prison asked me

1:24:48about killing and stuff like your ass can be a little bit more she was a psychologist and I said anybody could kill and she said no I can't kill so I said are you married she says I asked the questions then the interview is over if I can't ask you a question you're asking me questions and I'm answering if you can't answer my simple question then forget the interview is over it wasn't an interview with you know a psychologist talking and she says all right yes i am married you have kids a beautiful girl and a beautiful boy supposing somebody raped your beautiful little girl brutally brutally raped her and killed her and got caught and got the death penalty now the day is coming they're going to put him to death and nobody's there to press the button or pull the switch or whatever it is and if nobody shows up the death penalty sentence is commuted he'll get 10 years 15 years so someday he'll go out could you pull the uh the switch or press the button absolutely she didn't hesitate so then under the right conditions you can kill yeah under the right conditions i can kill and I think under the right conditions anybody can kill.

1:26:19You get a lot of women they're like the mama bear. Fuck with their kids in a horrible way and if they can protect them by killing they'll kill you. And so will a man to protect his wife and his children. I'm not saying they're going to be mafia people or they're going to kill ruthlessly but to protect their children their family they can kill. A soldier could kill to protect his country. A cop could kill to protect his people, the neighborhood. Some people break rules and are disgusting about it, but we're not talking about them. They're a small, small, small minority group. They become serial killers or whatever they are.

1:27:05That's a whole nother story, but that I won't get into, but everybody could kill. How was your relationship with Castellano? He was very, very good in the beginning. I thought he was the best thing since sliced bread. I liked him. I dealt with him a lot. A lot of union things and business things. He loved that about me, and he used me. Like you said before, you know, if you saw the way I was, you would use me. Well, that's how I'm involved in the 18 murders. I never got up in the morning and felt like killing somebody. me if I had an argument with you I feel like punching your fucking face in but I don't feel like killing you but I was asked a lot of times under Castell under the Colombos under the Castellano under John Gotti so I guess other people recognize my abilities as that so they used me for that but they also used me as a racketeer in business to control unions jobs making money, making deals.

1:28:09I'll give you one more story. It's Castellano sent me down to a meeting about the Concrete Club. It was bosses there, and he couldn't make it. He sent me. I met the bosses, Fat Tony, Tony Ducks, a guy from the Colombo family representing them. Fat Tony joked with me. you're a good looking kid what are you doing here with us old farts go out and go get laid joking tony ducks sammy i know you're a little nervous i was only in acting captain they were bosses don't be nervous when i look at you and we look at you now we're looking at paul he sent you here so would you say we're looking at you as a boss not that you're a boss but we're thinking about him all right and i felt good i heard the whole meeting about getting all the unions and trying to tie up the whole city of new york with the concrete industry and this that year so i got back from the meeting the next day and they sat with paul and he says uh what'd you think tony and them they were treating me great yeah they're good guys but what'd you think you want to really hear what i think yeah of course that's why i sent you i think we're all gonna go to jail it's too big we're controlling too much

1:29:39he said good good good i'm gonna take you off representing this i'm gonna put somebody else doing that i said paul i'm not afraid to go to jail i didn't mean it that way i said i'll be going to the meetings he said no no no no it's not i'm not taking you off i know you're not afraid he said you want to know what the other guy who was handling it before you what he said yeah what did he say he said great paul we're gonna make a ton of money

1:30:13you gave me the right advice we're gonna go to jail you're not looking at money and greed you're looking at the reality that we're gonna go to fucking jail because it's too fucking big and i told paul then we let you back away from it he said i can't when the bosses of the other families are sitting at that table i have to have a spot there but i think you're right and because you're so fucking right i'm gonna take you off of that i don't want to jump i need you for other things dealing with people so i was not only picked to be a gangster and go kill somebody i was also picked because i was able to use my head my thinking power and that may have made my job as a killer easier because i did the same exact thing i used my head i thought I'm not sure you want me to kill them all right I'll go do it and I didn't do that oh you want me to kill him all right and I did this whole investigation of it did you question when someone gave you an order to kill did you question why it was getting done before you done it or did you just go and do it in the mafia if the boss tells you to kill you kill when you take the oath the first question out of his mouth is if we tell you to kill for the family would you do Yes.

1:31:37He don't ask you. You can't question the boss. If I tell you to go kill somebody, would you do it? Yes. And then they tell you a whole bunch of other things. But that was like the first question. Did you kill someone without his order once? Castellano? Or was it someone else? Did you kill someone? Kenyan never got an order to do it, but you just, you went and met him, I think, and says, I've done it for your own benefit. I didn't want to come and see you and then kill someone, and then the heat would be on you. I did that with Plaza Suite. I knew the guy was so out of order. He did so many weird things.

1:32:14He did so many fucked up things. And then he took a machine gun out when me and my brother-in-law came in and put it right to my chest. As close as me and you are, he pointed the machine gun. My whole body tensed it up because I thought any second he was going to pull the trigger, I thought I was getting killed. And he should have killed me. But he didn't. But when I walked out of that office with him, I told my brother-in-law, get the guys, get my guys together. But Sammy, shut the fuck up, but Sammy, I told you get the guys and put them in the bar. I want to see them all. What are you going to do?

1:32:45I'm going to kill this guy tonight.

1:32:50and uh we did that and actually paul got mad at me because i didn't ask permission first because you're supposed to ask permission first all the time but there was beefs going on with this that happened i know his house was being watched i figured if i go to his house tell him what happen he's going to say okay then i'm going to go and i'm going to kill him and the cops the agents will see me coming from where i was to his house and back so if i'm caught he's caught too they'll have that he's finished so i took that into consideration i talked to my very close friend frankie chico told him everything that happened bring it back to him even after the hit i won't go to his house because i didn't want i know i was taking already taking heat for that hit so i said frankie chico but frankie came back he said send me he's taking this the wrong way he's taking it that you didn't you know you did it off the record here he didn't tell him he stayed i stayed 19 days he wouldn't talk to me i met my crew on the farm on my farm and i told them listen me and louie malito are in serious trouble what i want you guys and i'm calling you guys to the farm where i want to talk to you if i don't come home or something happens take care of my family family.

1:34:29I want that. I want you to see. I want to hear you say it. Couple of them said, Sammy, no, we're coming with you. We'll fight. We can't fight. There's no fight. All I want you to do is take care of my fucking family. Give me your fucking word. They all gave me their word. Some of them left. Some of them left and came back. They just wouldn't leave me. So and then 19 days later he met with me and louie malito alone with tommy bilotti and uh just like i said in that other interview he talked with us and he says you know and i told him i said paul i did that because i thought i knew you would give me permission for everything you did and i just thought i would be bringing you heat and immense heat and they try to protect you and leave you out of that and and i sent frankie right away i didn't try to dodge it i didn't say i didn't try to say i didn't do it i told you all the facts and tommy balani who didn't really like me and vice versa he kind of like shook his head like as if to say he's right and then paul said okay um i'll let this go but don't ever do it again

1:35:54and they said i can't i i can't say that if it comes to me trying to protect you again i would do the same thing louis malito grabbed my leg and pressed it real hard paul looked at me looked at tommy belati and he went like this like he's right in a way he didn't say a word he just shrugged his shoulders and nodded a little bit And he looked at me, he said, Sammy, you got balls like a fucking elephant, bro. But you can't do this, I'm going to give you an order not to do it. And we left. That really broke up mine and Louie Molito's relationship. Why? Louie Molito told me, he said, Sammy, the same thing.

1:36:46You got two bigger balls, bro. Do you become a threat then? No, no, no. He said, you got two bigger balls, you're going to get killed. Don't you understand? You can't talk to a boss. He let you off the hook. Then you tell him, no, you're not going to do that? What's fucking wrong with you, bro? You're going to get killed. And he looked at it like, me and Louie were like, Sammy and Louie. You didn't say Sammy without Louie. You didn't say Louie without Sammy. We grew up together. We were tight. We did work together. We did everything together. So he kind of thought, this guy's committing suicide.

1:37:26I love him, but he's committing suicide. And he broke away. And later on, when we were going to kill Paul, he made another couple of bad moves and whatever. But that meeting kind of broke us up. So the guy that you had killed, he was going to buy your nightclub off you or the building that it was in for a million quid. Why would he put a gun out to you, knowing your history, and not use it? It's not as if it's going to be a scare attack. I don't think he knew my history at well. He came from Czechoslovakia. He was a fucking gangster in his own right, a drug dealer. He was a powerhouse in Czechoslovakia.

1:38:11I don't think he knew. He underestimated me, I think. A lot of things. I don't know. but we argued there was a bunch of arguments there's something going on about that now people from Czechoslovakia are talking to me about that whole thing there was a guy who was at the party you know whole thing going on but so I think he underestimated me I don't think he knew I was somebody but I think he completely underestimated me what was it like getting mad it was one of the best days of my life. Once I got to the point that I was in the mafia and I looked up to all these people, Al Capone, Lucky Luciano, Vito Genovese, and on and on and on and on, and Tato and everybody else I was dealing with, it was if you were going to school and you weren't that good in the school and all of a sudden you got a little lucky, you went to college, and now all of a sudden you're in fucking Harvard and you're getting your degree out of Harvard.

1:39:19It's got to be a fucking shining thing, major thing. That's what getting made was to me. It was a highlight of my life. I mean, getting married was a highlight. Having children when each one was born was a highlight. This was on that level, maybe even above that. Is that how much it meant to you? Yes. see when you get made then what sort of doors does that open because we've not even touched on the business side of things like you were successful at business you anything you've done you were successful but the business side of things you made a lot of money so see when you become made does it open doors for more business opportunities do you get more respect how does it work oh absolutely opens up both kinds of doors you're as a maid guy you have the whole family of the old mafia behind you so if you're not a mafioso let's say that you're part of the irish mob and you're talking you may be a tough guy with the irish mob but you said it's guys a main guy which carries the weight in the whole mafia you hurt him you with him you do something you could have the whole five families it's not just him and it's not just his crew five ten fifteen twenty guys you got a couple thousand guys who will kill you in a second because of what you did to him.

1:40:38So you're carrying the weight of the mafia. It's very heavy. They're so tight, and they treat their people, babe guys, as they're all brothers there, like family members. When me and you get made, I'll make you a made guy. Your wife, I look at your wife now as my sister-in-law. Your children are my nieces and nephews. I could be in a bar one night and I could see a little daughter she's drinking some guy playing around she's drinking a little too much and I come over I told the bartender no more for her sweetheart I know your dad I know you don't know me but you're gonna get in the car you're gonna go home the guy you come here get the fuck out of here get away from her that is my obligation you're my brother and she's my You're my your family is my family But they know it or not She may not even know me You know cry a little bit.

1:41:44Yeah, all right, then go tell your daddy that I made you go home You're getting in a car and you're going home No, I'm not if I got to drag you by your fucking hair and put you in a car you're going home you're a little drunk this fucking kid is getting a little stupid with you and that's got to stop he's my boyfriend i don't give a fuck who he is you want to keep him as a boyfriend listen to what i'm telling you so those are things that's automatic when you see that or you understand and know that when you fuck with me or my family you're fucking with the whole mafia. Every family. When was the first time you met John Gotti?

1:42:29I met him years ago. I met him in, I believe it was 1976. I mean, yeah. I got made in 1976. Yeah, 1976. A year later, I became an acting captain. He may be his acting captain a year after I got made. I met John Gotti come out of prison. I think it was early 1977. He wasn't a made guy yet. He just got out of prison. And I met him in an after-hour club. Frankie Di Chico had a club, which I always frequents. If he opened a gambling place or a club, I always went there with my people to, you know, always give him a push. did you ever have an incline how much John would have a part in your life and how far it would went did you ever have a feeling or was it just another normal man no it was just he wasn't even a made guy at that time you were made before John oh yeah he was I was made in 76 he was made in 77 sorry for asking the same questions but it's just for the UK audience and fucking 40 50 years later we're still talking about it yeah it is amazing i know you know what's amazing you would you could have told me five six seven years ago ten years ago whatever it is you're going to be talking publicly about your life or about the mafia or about i would say you're crazy me i'm not a public speaker you know that's not what i do i've never done that so i i would think if you know i i got out jail in 2017 i never thought of doing any of this my son started telling me i was broke started on social media start doing some things i said what's social media i had no idea i was in jail for almost 18 years there was no youtube there was no these phones didn't exist when i went in so the phones were brand new I mean it was always computers with different kind of computers the social media I didn't know have a clue what this was what was it like being in prison for the first time in the 70s well prisons is a scummy place I mean there's nothing nice about it what were you in for the first time I was busted so many times I forgot what I'm what What was first and what was second.

1:45:04But the prison part of it, I think, when I testified, I mean, when I got arrested with John Gotti. I got arrested in December of 1990 with John Gotti. I left him. I quit the mob and I left him in November, 11 months later in 1991. I did five years on that one. I got out. I went in the program a little while for eight months. Then I went back to Arizona where my family was. And then in February of 1999, I got busted again. 18 years. And I got a 20-year sentence. I did 17 years, 7 months. Just about 18 years. And so that was my end. But I got busted as a kid and things. But I didn't go to prison.

1:46:10I went to regular jails. Got out on bail eventually. And so on and so forth. And I beat cases and whatever. I lost any cases. See, the Castellana killing, how planned was that? Because it still spoke about to this day for a boss to be getting killed. But what happened there? Why did that all come about? Well, he got him and Angelo Ruggiero, this guy got caught on tapes, talking about the boss, talking about the commission, talking about drugs. And Paul was going to wipe them out. And they came to me, and Fred Cicicco, and Joe Piney for help. And help meant going to war against the boss. and at that time Castellano was the boss of bosses.

1:47:01And we decided to save him, back him, make him the boss, me and Frankie DiCicco. Joe Piney K went along with it. DB went along with it. And that was us and we were ready to have that war. How long was the plan to get Castellano killed? Took us anywhere between six and eight months. before it happened. How many people knew that it was going to happen? A handful. Did you trust enough people with that information? Because you know yourself, if that gets out, you're dead. Yeah, without a doubt. Matter of fact, in October, before the hit took place, me and Frankie DiCicco moved in together with another guy, Frankie Botts, a shooter.

1:47:52And we lived together in this guy, Joe Watts' house. so we were moving around our normal routines just in case it did get out. But it was a small handful of guys. Because when Castellano got killed, you were in the car around the corner and John Gotti was driving, is that correct? John Gotti was driving. We weren't around the corner. We were just down the block on the corner. So if you've set that up to kill the boss, why did you never become boss? is that a tactic of yours because you seem listening to you and listening to your interviews you seem to move like a boss that you're sitting across from a boss and telling him i'm still going to do it anyway you've manipulated the boss to think you're doing him a favor but yet you're still calling the shots i don't think i manipulated him at all i think i just told him what i felt as the truth but if he lets anyone do things that he's not saying then that's for me that's a weakness because you've found a flaw in his arsenal well you can look at it however you want as a weakness I think I took it as a strength that he was smart enough to see that I was right he I'm supposed to protect him with my life if I have to and I think he took that as Tommy who who, like I said, wasn't one of my fans, nodded and as if to say, Sammy's right.

1:49:22You're supposed to do that. You're going to punish him for what he's doing right? He's trying to protect you. He didn't hide it from you. Now, if I would have hit it and said, no, I got nothing to do with that hit, and I did it, he would have killed me in a minute. But I didn't do that. And so... Have you ever been shot, Sammy? Twice. When? Two times when I was younger. Before the Mafia? Or in the Mafia? Well, I was... It's actually before the Mafia. But I was in gangs and stuff like that. So all the shit that you'd done in the Mafia, you were never attacked, you were never shot, you were never stabbed?

1:50:08I was shot two different times and I was stabbed once in the army when I had a fight with somebody. a guy stabbed me in the hand um and uh when we were kids me and my friend joe vitale we were going to score we both got shot i got hit in the back of the head the bullet was coming on an angle going this way so when it hit me it hit my skull it kind of pushed it that little extra and it bounced off it opened my skin but it didn't crack my skull or go into my skull kind of deflected the bullet the other one hit me in the chest the bullet went in my chest it split I still have a piece of it in my muscle a lot uh they never took it out it was so close to my heart the piece the little piece where the bullet broke that they didn't want to go in and do surgery on it.

1:51:04Then it became engulfed in my muscle. And they never wanted to go back and open it up and do it. And it wasn't, it was, it can't move. It's in my muscle. And they just left it. A couple of times I went for x-rays and they said, do you know, they thought I was in the military. Do you know you got a piece of bullet in you? I said, yeah, yeah. Yeah, leave it alone. I mean, I know it's there, so what? It's in the muscle. It's been there for I don't know how many years. A ton of years, so I just leave it. So see when Castellano get killed, how does that then change everything? The boss of all bosses, many years later, people still talk about it, but how does that, did you ever think that you were next or did you feel as if that was a new chapter to then make things happen differently?

1:51:55We wanted, me and Frankie DeGico, convinced me that we were going to change the mafia back the way it's supposed to do, and save Gotti and his crew, and that we would make him be the boss. He had personality, he had qualities that he could be the boss. He just, and then Frankie told me, if he acts like a fool, we'll kill him, I'll take over, you'll be my under. and i shook frankie's hand at first i didn't want to do it when angelo asked me i didn't grow up with john gotti he was a friend he got made we're friends but i had no interest in killing the boss even though he did something to me and my family which i'm not going to get into but um I didn't want to when we he talked to me I told Frankie I'll do it I'll be part of it if you become the boss Frankie was very he was like a big brother to me he was 14 years older than me he was like a big brother to me I loved the guy trusted him but he convinced me that saving them taking it over and me and him would be the power behind the throne we put him as the king and we would be the power behind us you's not become a liability then that you's have killed a boss that you's are not to be trusted or where you's feared how does it work how does it operate that you's have killed the boss of all bosses so obviously you's have not fucking any control which I would be thinking you can't trust them they could put a bullet on anybody so why would you accept it to then do what you've done after the killing of the boss everybody was afraid of us we were we were fucking dangerous we had a fucking hundred shooters and uh if you would open your mouth in any fucking negative way about what we did we would kill you too we wouldn't even hesitate to kill you we were at war and guys knew that they're not stupid they said these guys are all shooters and they killed the boss of bosses they're fucking ruthless you want to fuck with them and say something or do something or you want to be the fucking boss so they just like whoa yeah all right he's the boss that's good that's good let's back the fuck away it literally terrified the entire mafia it became worldwide news you want to play with that it's like the united states bombing fucking uh Russia and blew it off the map do you think England's gonna say something or China or anybody they'll say fucking Trump was the president they blew it off fuck that I didn't get involved that's a normal instinct you would have to be crazy to say something or do something you'd have to be out of your mind so see once so once got to become boss how was life in the mafia then did you feel untouchable no we never felt untouchable Frankie DiCicco got blown up in the car fucking five months later and he was your best friend yes and he was the underboss John became the boss Frankie DiCicco became the underboss and who killed him Well, there was a combination of different people, but it was gas pipe, it was Cingiganti, it was people from Sicily.

1:55:43Now, that's my dog coming in. And she's saying, that's the end of the secret, bro. She's the one who keeps the time clock. So who killed the cheek? Was that ever an issue that would be coming for you when your best friend got killed? no no no it was it had nothing to do with us it had to no we were all going to they were of course they wanted to kill us all right john me frankie you know it wasn't easy we had arms of guys around us all the time and uh you know like it's dangerous to kill the boss because there could be a tremendous reaction to it killing one of us is the same thing you you're taking on now everybody was involved that whole fucking a large army the guys so when did you become under boss i became immediately became a full-blown captain um after that i became the god's leader of the family and i believe it was uh 88 i became the under boss so how long did you stay in power for before it all came crumbling down?

1:56:53How many years? Before John is pinched? Yeah, before both of you went. We did the Castellano in December of 85. In December of 90, we're in jail. How was it seeing John with, in front of all the magazines and the news, and it was a more glorified gangster? How was that? Did you ever say this and you need to rein it in, or was it just go to his head too much with the ego kicked in? kicked in like a bastard. I mean, he made every mistake. They did a thing on Netflix, How to Be a Boss, and Netflix, the people knocked the shit out. He did everything wrong. Everything you're not supposed to do, he did.

1:57:38That was on Netflix. They did another one now. Another one, I forgot the name of it.

1:57:47James, get Gotti. They knocked the shit out of him. This is everybody. State, organized crime, feds, gangsters, everybody. So, he made every bad move you could make. Did Gotti give you an order to kill Don King? At one point, yeah. Why? Because he wouldn't listen to us. So, being an underboss as well, though, the job are quick, because you should never have been on the streets killing, is that correct? Like being an underboss? Well, when you get to become main, you're usually a killer. That's how you get in. When you're a main guy, you get work. When you're a captain, you're usually, it's the guys who were not made yet, the guys who are made.

1:58:33It's not even the captain no more, let alone the cause of the air or the underboss. Then you've got less and less that you're going to be on the street. he had me on the street as the underboss on hits did you ever question that that maybe he was trying to get you to get life or get killed yourself I didn't question it that way I just it was annoying in other words I shouldn't be on the fucking street as the underboss with a fucking gun with a bunch of guys with guns and I'm on the street bro that's way below my level why am I still on the street it annoyed me that way i never thought he wanted he wanted to get done so he wanted when he wanted somebody dead he wanted him dead and his theory was i'm gonna bark sammy's gonna bite he knew if i had to hit you would die that that's what he wanted that reputation i give an order that guy dies some of these guys they're made guys not everybody's as tough as that you think they are.

1:59:43They're soft. Even though they've been in their life and they got made, they're a little on the soft side. I wasn't. He knew I give him the hit, that thing's going to get done. When did you realize that it was all going to come on top? Did you get a heads up or was the indictments just, did it just all happen? No, no, no. We had worry there was indictments. I was on the lam for a while. and then when I came off the lam he called me in. We got pinched. What are you thinking then? Nothing. He knew we were in trouble. Big trouble. And then they found out that the apartment that he was in was bugged and he had tapes on top of tapes on top of tapes.

2:00:29Now he knew we were dead. I don't understand that, Sammy, that they're speaking on the phone. What is that? Is that just... Not on the phone. he was in an apartment but they bugged the the apartment when did you start listening to the tapes when he was speaking about you in prison yeah what did they say well they they were holding us as a threat to society with no bail and the lawyers put in that they can't fight their case they're in jail they're in a hole and the judge went to the fbi and said you know they should have bailed so that they could fight their case. And they said they were a threat to society.

2:01:10The judge says, show me. And they had to show the tapes. They played them in open court. The judge agreed and gave us no bail. But now we knew what he got caught saying on tapes. What did they say about you? He was knocking the shit out of me. He was bare mounting me behind my back. how did that make you feel? well not good that's for shit sure how would you feel? yeah a bit pissed off yeah and most of it was bullshit so it came out a little later but I mean he had plans I think of getting rid of me and yeah it's a long story too it's too long for me to get it done yeah of course it's a 20 minute story yeah yeah so see for see when you you then gave evidence and stuff how was that decision a man who was about the mafia a man who could kill without losing any sleep how was it an easy decision when you hear someone bad mouthing you or did it take time to them it was the hottest decision of my life how so how so it was the hottest decision of my life i had a tremendous respect for girls in austria i lived for it i killed for it i did everything for it i rigged all his trials when he got pinched i threatened fucking jurors.

2:02:31I did a million things. Paid them. Did all kinds of things. How would you feel? You're married? No. No? Well, if you were married and you had your wife and she was the fucking best thing in the fucking world for you and you did everything for her, she betrays you. Yeah, heartbroken. It's awful. So I was heartbroken at first. Mad, heartbroken. I was everything. Was people surprised when you started giving everything? The FBI itself, when I reached out to them to talk, they didn't believe it. They said, Sammy's too hardcore. Something's wrong. He's going to come in and he's going to fuck up the whole case, the trial.

2:03:13So he's going to do something. This is not him. All my life I've been arrested. I must have been asked to cooperate a hundred times in my life. I was on a double murder years ago with my bumbada. They must have asked me a hundred times. I ain't never said. Yes, I would tell them, get the fuck, take a walk. And they'd form my cases or went to jail or whatever I did. But it was the hardest decision of my life. What deal did they give you, Sammy? What? What deal did they give you? What deal did they give you? I copped out that in the deal that I would do no more than 20 years.

2:03:50And I would have to, you know, give up my crimes and everything I knew. But my sentence would be no more than 20 years. And what did you do, five? Five. What prison did you do your five in? Well, some of them was in the MCC when I started. I did 11 months of it before I even cooperated. And then I went to a prison in Texas, the Velocity Suite, they called it. The first guy who ever cooperated, they had a prison. They made it a cell for him and everything, that place. and I didn't want to stay there because I would have been the only guy there for years and years and years. So I was bullshitting and breaking balls about it, and then they sent me to witness units where I did time with other guys.

2:04:42I wanted to be with other people. See, when you go out of prison, Sammy, you end up in the witness protection, is that correct? When you're in the witness, or what's like you, yeah. Yeah, so how long are you supposed to be in witness protection for? There's no limits. Because you've done eight months, you signed out? When I got out, I stayed in trade once and I quit. I didn't want to be any part of it. What was it like being in the system? In the system while you cooperate? Yeah. Well, you were in a wet cycle. Everybody in that unit cooperated. Everybody. So the thing about you, Sammy, you've lived that life, you've killed people, you've done a lot of dark shit, you've cooperated, you've put one of the biggest bosses inside, but then you ended up doing an 18th stretch for ecstasy see when you came out did you ever just think i'm going to change my life or was it just ingrained with in you to i just the whole case was exaggerated i i really wanted to change my life i got fucked up with this ecstasy case again another long story and um and i uh i pled out you got 20 years because i think they were after your wife your daughter your son and you took the deal and done 20 years i think that's why the story's confusing because you've turned on go out and not go to prison but then you've done 20 years anyway so it shows you your character what you thinking then what age were you 60 no i was um i believe i was uh i think i was 55 when i went back to prison did you ever think you would die in prison yeah sure Because I already had that label of being a cooperator, being a rat or whatever.

2:06:27So I thought, I'll never make it. How hard is that life on your kids, Sammy? When I cooperated, it was super hard for my daughter and my son. And they got tangled up with this ecstasy bullshit. And I took a plea because I made a deal for them that they would not do. my son was facing 45 years with the feds and 25 years with the state and when i made the deal i copped out didn't matter what time um that he only got 9.3 years nine years three months and my daughter got no time my wife got no time so i took the weight so to speak and uh i got 20 years. 20 years. Did they offer you another deal?

2:07:25No. Were they just wanting you anyway because of the shit you done? Yeah, they wanted me to take the weight on this case. There was a broad deal. It was the Attorney General. She was going to run for governor. She was hand in her chest that she got me. She was using that. They won't give me no deals. So, they just wanted to bragging rights. How were you treated in prison, Sam, in 18 years? Did you become a target or, again, was it that mindset of not being a puritan, but you always seemed to find a way? You always seemed to find answers of surviving? A couple of times I got into a couple battles in prison a couple times I heard some money in prison um and I got along with inmates I got along with them very well and uh I was friends with the A.B.'s the Arian brothers I was very friendly with the Mexicans our familia very dangerous Mexican gang in prison and I got along with people basically.

2:08:40I never walked around like my shit don't stink but they knew I made it known if you're going to fuck with me you better kill me because I'm going to kill you. Simple as that. I'm going to be a fight. You're going to win the fight. You're going to kick me in the face. I'm going to kill you. look if you're we're gonna do it let's you better kill me and they knew i would kill i was a killer so they kind of knew he's not he don't act like a like a big shot he doesn't do anything stupid and whatever and and uh i was treated with respect in some cases and when i wasn't i reacted to it simple as that what's the worst thing you seen in prison i don't know prison's not a big deal to me what's a big deal is you lose your fucking freedom it's not what's happening in prison i could deal with all those issues it's outside people die you can't be part of your family you can't help people you can't do anything and freedom is a big big fucking thing and at one point in that case i went to the adx supermax i started my that that bit that 20 year bit i did six and a half fucking years in a hole the loneliness and is the worst thing i saw is living without, I'm a people's person, living without people, family, things, is a little bit of a nightmare.

2:10:29When I say a little bit of a nightmare, it's probably a lot more than a little bit of a nightmare. But starting in the hole, I did a time before that, where I was in population and stuff. But in the hole is... What's your biggest regret in life, Sammy? I don't know. I answered this question and I get in trouble every time I answer this question because they take my words out of context. There's a lot of regrets. But when I look or think about my life, I say there's things I regret I don't like. there's things I do. But every one of them left some sort of a mark on me, and it's what I am today.

2:11:20So if that didn't happen, this didn't happen, that didn't happen, what the fuck would I be today? I don't know. I'm happy about what I am today. I'm happy I can do what I'm doing in Hollywood. I've surrounded myself with legitimate, good people i'm doing this interview with you life is good yes well i mean what would i be maybe i wouldn't do this maybe i wouldn't be doing this maybe i would be something else i don't know what i would be so it's hard to say to a person you know take out some of the things you did in life. And if they really think about it, they might say, then exactly what would I be today?

2:12:10I wouldn't be. I'm going to go to Hannah, who said she's a good person. But take out some of the things you have done or been through. Take them out. Would she be Anna now, who is this person i don't think so you're obviously going to be a little different but i feel the same way about hannah as i feel now if she was totally different i don't know maybe not so i don't know it's a hard question to ask it's it's a hard hardery uh to answer it to say i don't know what I would be without those things happening. The Johnny Keys thing, it was devastating in my life. What would happen if that didn't happen or I regret that happened?

2:13:03It never happened. Would I have been this dead and came into the mouth field? Would I have been? I don't know what I would have been. I know what he taught me. He didn't talk to him. I regret that the guy died. I mean, I regret his family had to suffer. I regret those things. But what would I have been without that? I don't know. I really don't know. I would have been a different person, I think. If you could change it, would you? The way I feel right now, what I am right now, no. Your life passed? No. No. Because I wouldn't be Sammy the Bull right now. I wouldn't be in this conversation. I don't know what I would have been.

2:13:47maybe I would have been a junkie. Fuck who I know. I don't know what I would have been. So I live by a certain guideline, and I know what I am now. I'm comfortable in this body. I'm very comfortable in this body. I know what I am. I'm good to a lot of people, and I brush off people. I don't kill people. I've changed my life. Some people say, you think you could? Yeah, of course I could. I'm a fucking it guy. I don't do it. And nobody's going to order me to kill anybody, so I ain't doing it. Do I want to do it on my own? Do I ever want to get up one morning and want to kill somebody? No. Am I argumentative?

2:14:32Ask the girls around me. I'm argumentative. Will I argue? Yeah. Will I fight right now? I'm 79. You look like a pretty hefty guy. You do something fucking crazy. I'm going to throw blows with you. I'll probably lose. you're a lot younger strong look stronger than me but I'm gonna go to balls with you so I'm comfortable in what I am what I would be without my prior life with prior everything you could say what would you be without your mother father I have no idea what would you be without Tato I have no idea I I would have been a better man without Carmine Persico. You know, then maybe not. He was ruthless.

2:15:21Maybe he taught me what I don't want to be. But I had no choice, but you know what I'm saying? It's such a hard question to answer. In that life, Sammy, we spoke about you being the perfect soldier, but when did the penny drop? That every gangster either becomes murdered or in prison, everybody's turning on each other there's no loyalty bosses are being killed made guys are getting killed when did the penny ever drop for you because you're a smart guy you understood that life but you understood your job and your duties what was to do but what did the penny ever drop that it was all fucked up it was only a matter of time before you were killed or in prison it didn't happen it happened in prison but not for any of those reasons not because of prison When John Gotti turned on me, it was over.

2:16:08It was lights out. When I walked away, he wanted me to take the weight. He was going to back the tapes. He was going to have the lawyers back the tapes. On the tapes, I sound like a real bad dude. So they went to train and say, you heard the tapes. John's complained about Sammy. It's not poor John. It's him. It's Sammy. he's a monster.

2:16:39And when I said, are you sure that's what you want to happen? He said, I'm the boss. The boss has got to be on the street. You got to take the fall. I know it's wrong, but you got to take the fall. And when I walked away, I didn't say a word. When I walked away in my head, I said, fuck the mafia. Fuck John Gotti. I quit. I got in touch with the FBI, and that's just what I told them. I quit. I'm on your side now. I changed sides. Was there any man you feared in that life? In that life, just to say what I said and walked away is that, I didn't know, fuck the individuals, but I told you the whole fucking mafia would want to kill you.

2:17:28And I knew that. So there's no individual I feared. John would put out an order to hit me. I mean, that's just... That happens. I mean, I feared nobody. Was there any times you actually wish you would have been killed? No. It might sound a weird question, but a lot of people are in pain and do a lot of dark shit where they hear screams and voices, have nightmares where they feel... Well, if you have a way to answer those people, then go fuck up, jump off a bridge, and go kill yourself. Don't live like a cunt. You're a cunt. With that fucking bullshit answer. Go kill yourself. Don't wait for somebody else to kill you.

2:18:05You ain't got balls enough to kill yourself. You can give orders and you can kill people you can't kill yourself. What's your problem? Put the fucking gun in your mouth and pull the trigger and get the fuck out of the way. No. I fear nothing. I fear nobody. Did you see a lot of suicides in the mafia? No. No, I really... No. I didn't see too many suicides. I mean, I heard of a couple of guys but they were, you know, not really mafiosos. No. No, I don't think there's that many guys. I've seen a lot of good, good people in the mafia. Not everybody's a killer. It's not a... They maybe could kill you or be part of it in some way, but they're not killers.

2:18:47They're not sadistic killers. And if you would have left me alone and never gave me an order, I don't think I would have had two or three hits. Not 19. I would have been Things I want to do on my own I would have been down to a few I wouldn't have never been close to 19 Greg Scarpa I mean I had Larry Mazel on He was saying he had over 100 kills Or possibly over 200 But you grew up in the same street Is that correct? Yeah Same neighborhood That's a fucking crazy street That Sammy Ferg I would no fucking like to have grew up in that Well you know The whole neighborhood, Bensonhurst, Diker Heights, Bay Ridge, Graves End, that's all Bensonhurst areas.

2:19:38It was infested with mafios. It was crazy. There were so many murders where I had, we had a bar, Doc's Bar. It was in a commercial area, trucks and everything closed at night. There were dumb bodies there. I went around to people's clubs because every day of the fucking day there was a body. Not, I'm exaggerating every other day, but a lot. To the point, I said, the cops are going to think we're doing this. And a couple of my guys says, no, they won't. Because if we did it, we wouldn't put them here. It's our own block. We would put it somewhere else. So then you realize that. But I went to people's clubs and said, listen, if you're killing, I don't give a fuck what you're doing.

2:20:24but if you're killing people don't dump your fucking bodies over here i got a club here the cops are going to think i'm insane killing fucking guys every three minutes over here so you know and i actually did that went around and talked to guys and they said yeah we laughed and said we're not dumping bodies over there now somebody's dumping them they don't mind what's the best thing about being in the mafia sammy brotherhood the brotherhood the families like i said you know i mean you know you're you're a brother you're a mafioso you're my brother i mean not like that guy i may love the shit out of your wife is a good person i like her not to bang her but i like her because banging her you you die that's a that's an that's a you that's a death penalty but i may like her as a person she may be real good to my kids.

2:21:20Our families interact. So we become one gigantic fucking family. There's a lot of good things and a lot of good people in the mafia. What's the worst thing about being in the mafia?

2:21:39is getting caught and go to jail and being all fucked up and and and murders if if there was a way to possibly reduce the amount of things but it you can't you have to have a you're a killer your camera guy's a killer i'm a killer with there has to be a rule if there's no rules because you break a rule you have to go and if there's no rules or you don't go then what stops me or what stops him that those murders stop other people who are tough a guy like me i would say no i'm gonna do that i'm gonna break that rule i'm gonna die Fuck that either Why would you do that Who was the maddest person You'd ever come across Because you were mad You were fucking Off the scale nuts Even though you don't think so But you were a killer You were a fucking psycho If you're honest You know what I'm saying But was there anybody That you thought Because no doubt You would have looked at people And said he's fucking crazy But remember 99.9 % of this world Were thinking You were a fucking You were a nutcase You were a fucking killer But is there anybody In your mind That you thought Yeah he's he's a nutcase.

2:22:57Roy DeMayo, Gas Pipe. They're not nutcases. They became serial killers. Some people pass that mark of being a killer. It doesn't do anything to them. Some people pass that mark and they become a fucking serial killer. Now they're killing people for no reason. They enjoy killing. That's a serial killer. And those people, like I said, Roy DeMayo, Gas Pipe, there's quite a few guys who became, not quite a few but there's a bunch, who became serial killers. So see when you came out of prison after the ecstasy burst, what was life like then? What were you thinking? Coming out in your 70s What were you thinking?

2:23:46I got out when I was 72 years old. I was fucking dead broke when I got out. I wasn't thinking anything. I lived in my daughter's house. I tried to get and I went for and I got social security that I paid taxes years ago. So I'm eligible. I got social security. I went down with my daughter. I couldn't get insurance because I was in so long. So I was a veteran. I went to the VA and got my veteran. Then I went for food stamps because I had no fucking money. When I got out of prison, I had$430 to my name. When I got arrested, they took all my clothes and everything like that. They never gave them back.

2:24:31So I had no clothes, no money, no car, no phone. My kids bought me a phone. And little by little, I started coming back. And then my son said, that why don't you start doing you got a lot of stories and shit social media and then i started doing social media after a while um and one thing led to another to another to another um my social media um i started with james carroll he heard me doing the stories i asked him for a to help me, he did. And he said, we do these things, you're gonna get 25 million views. I said, 25 million views? I was just away almost 20 fucking years. I said, I know 18 people for sure.

2:25:29Well, listen, I don't know about 25 million. And today we got 112 million views, almost 600 ,000 subscribers. and I got Hollywood. We're going to do some movies. Why do you think people love true crime so much? I don't know. It's a big genre. There's a lot of people doing it. A lot of women, believe it or not, and men, like it. Women buy books because they give it to their husbands or their boyfriends. It's a big drama. It's one of the biggest. I think politics is one of the biggest. and crime stories of all kinds. It could be black, it could be Hispanic, it could be bikers, it could be mom guys, it could be anything.

2:26:17But it's a big, big draw for people. They love hearing the stories, listening to them. I think men all have a little bit of bad boy in them. Maybe they didn't go there. Maybe they don't want to go there. But they all, in their heart, would like to be a little bad boy every once in a while. The fancy cars, the money, good-looking broads. All the fucking doodads they see in movies, Goodfellas, Godfather. There's a lot of people who have that in them. And there's a lot of women who like bad boys. Yeah. They like people who are men. Like we were talking about being a man, live like a man, act like a man.

2:27:02You don't have to be a gangster or a killer, but they like men to be men and they like bad boys you know so they read about it they fantasize about it maybe you know i don't know but it's it is a big you know fact that this is a big area of it there's a lot of podcasts all over the all over the world has an interest to this i mean we do a Q &A, we get 1 ,000, 1 ,200, 1 ,500 people. So big countries that come on my life. It's crazy. I mean, I get England, Israel, all countries from all Africa. I mean, how many people in Africa are listening to me? It's crazy. What is all your socials and your YouTube for people, for my followers to come over and have a look?

2:27:54They'll know who you are anyway, but what is your YouTube and your Instagram? and stuff Salvatore Samuel Gravano is your YouTuber people who go and subscribe I have another one I have my own website now ourthing.tv and we're putting stuff out on that and people are joining so I got followers like from all over the world did you ever think that would happen Sammy no no no like I said when I was talking with James Cowell he told me 25 million I just I didn't want to laugh at his face but I just I got family and friends right there and for sure I could get 18 people to listen to me. Maybe. How is that when you...

2:28:33Listen, I'm all for people coming out and changing. It's a noble thing to do, no matter what you've done in life with anybody. Because making changes is the fucking hardest thing on this planet to do. And when you do it, people laugh, people try and try and bring you down. This is a fucking sad world we're in. How is that? Coming out of prison, a hitman, a known fucking nutcase, to then be on YouTube and other gangsters on YouTube and everybody kind of want to do this now how do you see that now because it would never have happened 20 30 years ago nobody would speak as like you say the mafia is a it's a secret society is that it's a brotherhood you keep your mouth shut do your job and just nobody knows nothing but nowadays the for me anyway the police know everything but nowadays everything's out there everybody knows everything how is that when you see other gangsters so-called type doing this you a question yeah hey you just hit the nail on the head of the secret society brotherhood do your job quiet go away right so what do you think of john gaudy with all that flashy fucking shit it's crazy yeah yeah yeah it's crazy because it draws attention it's beyond words crazy yeah it's you you just exposed every fucking thing to the whole world you told everybody i'm a gangster here i am with all my suits and ties and shirts and this and mercedes-benz and my hair combed perfect everything's perfect i mean so you know that that was insane i you know it happens to some people they get starstruck i think he fell in love with himself i think he forgot he was a boss and he started thinking he was a movie star.

2:30:17Right now, if he was alive and you were able to ask him, what would you want to be? He would probably tell you, I want to be Sammy on fucking YouTube with all them followers and I want to do some movies and I want to do XYZ. It's crazy. And you're right. There's gangsters up the wazoo all over YouTube. Matter of fact, it's getting so stupid that they're just bad-mouthing each other like, you know, I got guys ripping it he's lying he's doing this he's doing that I two or three of them that they can't get views unless they mention my name how they get jealous like oh my god he's got you know that many one they want to get views and they want to use your name it's got to the point that it's crazy you know and um I'd hate to shut it down it annoys me sometimes I hate to shut it down after to work in this hard to get it to this point and do what I'm doing.

2:31:13So I don't think I'm going to shut it down. But sometimes it makes me like, let me get the fuck out of this. It's like a cesspool rail. Yeah. You know? So, but I, then I always changed my mind. You know, it took people to get me here. It took my team and I mean, my son, my daughter, people who helped me, my ex-wife who supports me in certain things. Friends, some of my old friends that I go back 30, 40, 50 years with are supportive. I almost feel like I'm not trapped, but I'm obligated to them. Too far gone? It's too far gone. I'll stay with it until the day I die. Somebody, when I come in the office one day, maybe I'll be laying on the floor and that's the end of my story.

2:32:03And they could keep going with it. They'll write books about it. They'll do YouTube. I'll be doing videos about it. A good episode. Yeah, getting views from people's misery. Just before we finish up, Sammy, for anybody who's struggling in life, for anybody who's battling, whether it's addiction, mental health, or maybe wanting to get involved in life or crime, what advice would you have for them? You know, all I would say is, there are a few questions. Life or crime, you've got to remember, you're going to give up your freedom. you're going to give up a lot for these things as far as going ahead with your life hard work i'm killing myself hard work it's not easy i work hard seven days a week i don't know how many hours a day but a lot a lot more than an eight hour day um sometimes i think i had the day off when I work eight hours.

2:32:58But work hard. Go ahead. Have a great family. Have a great life. You've got so many things to look forward to. And if you're failing at something, don't get disappointed. Go back in business again. Keep going. Because now, when you fail, you go back. You're going back with experience. You know, with everything you've done wrong. So now you're educated. You have that experience. Go forward. Just keep going with your life and your family. It's the most important thing. You only got one life to live. You know, don't just waste your time and I can't do it. I don't stop with excuses. Do it. I can't sing.

2:33:45I don't sing. I try. I work on this social media I said I can't do it I do it I mean I'm going to do movies I can't do it I do it just do it try if you don't make it at least you can say I tried so just keep showing up how is it going over your story because you must have said it a fucking thousand times but does it bring back a lot of emotions and does it drain you when you talk about your story some some of the stories yeah the johnny keys there's a lot of stories i grew up like i said with louis malito some of my crew i had to take out for reasons that would they became crackheads and you know i wish that they could uh have changed their lives and went in the right direction and still be alive but certain things just don't happen you can't especially death Once it happens, you can't change it.

2:34:48You know, Paul Castellano told me one time, you pull the trigger, boom. The bullet comes out of the gun. You can't stop it in midair no more. It's going to hit its target and do its damage. A bow and arrow, you pull the bow, you let it go, you're not going to stop that in midair no more. It's going to go where it's got to go and do damage. things you say with your mouth is the same as the bullet and the bow and arrow it'll come out you can't stop it no more it'll go to that person and it'll do damage so watch what you do and say and uh conduct your life you're hot you want to say something to your wife or your kid or your friend bite your tongue a little bit watch what you say just as deadly as the gun or the bow and arrow.

2:35:43So, you know, and that was a bit of advice I got, and I understand that. Sometimes I bite my tongue. Sometimes I say, I wish I could take that back. But you can't. Uh-huh. We should have just last question, Sammy. What's the biggest life lesson that you've learned your 79 years on this planet?

2:36:08A life lesson. like I said before about regrets be you be true blue to you if you can look at yourself in the mirror after whatever you did and give yourself a nod then just be you you know there's so many things that looking in the mirror uh I wouldn't do certain things because I can't I wouldn't be look at myself in the mirror. I could lie, I could bullshit, but I can't look at myself in the mirror with certain things. So just be you. Get comfortable in your skin. God made lions and they made lambs. Don't be all fucked up if you're a lion or a lamb. He made you. You had free will. he'll understand you don't worry about it don't listen to everybody if you're a lion be a lion try and you know there's another saying that you know you have to I'm not giving up I am selling the building the final season of FX is the bear the restaurant is flooded everything's either going to be okay or not.

2:37:33We are outgunned and we are outmanned, but we have each other. FX is the bear. The final season, all episodes now streaming on Disney plus. This episode is brought to you by chat GPT. Hey, it's Bill Simmons from the bill Simmons podcast. Have you guys heard about chat GPT work? It's the new way to use chat GPT for bigger multi-step projects. And when you need more than just answers, Give ChatGPT work access to your apps and files, and it can create real work documents like spreadsheets, slides, and structured reports. Get started at ChatGPT.com by selecting work mode available on Plus and Pro plans.

2:38:14Ryan Reynolds here for Mint Mobile with your summer price forecast. Now, unfortunately, we're seeing rising costs across the country with possibility that big wireless hates you 100%. 100%. Now over here at Mint Mobile, we're seeing sunny skies and dropping prices. Every plan to just$15 a month. Give it a try at mintmobile.com slash switch. Upfront payment of$45 for three months,$90 for six months, or$180 for 12-month plan required. $15 per month equivalent. Taxes and fees extra. New customer offer for initial plan term only. Greater than 50 gigabytes may slow when network is busy. See terms. Two wolves, a wolf on the left or a lion on the left side.

2:38:48I I have a lion on my left and a lamb on my right. Which one comes at you? Which one wins? It's the one you feed. You feed the lion, he's going to be biting people. When there's a problem, you get mad, stop feeding this one. So this one wins the argument and calms you the fuck down. You don't always have to be a lion. But some places, the lion's important. God gave you that free will, gave you those options be true to yourself Sammy listen for giving me your time I thoroughly enjoyed it I wish you nothing but the best for the future would you like to finish up on anything else no no I'm good I enjoyed the the interview you were a great interviewer and I appreciate it yeah I know I appreciate it I know you've told your story but it's just for the audience we've got to go over some questions that you've been asked many times before but again I wish you nothing but the best for future.

2:39:46God bless you and keep doing what you're doing. My man. Thank you, Sammy.