Liverpool Crime Boss on Drugs, Prison & Redemption - Leroy Gilbert Tells His Story

41:20I don't know about anybody else. case before and not ever being used. So you were getting surveillance back then? So I was - Bugged maybe? No, I'm not bugged. I was followed through city centre. So some of the cameras they was using, they were going to buy shirts or buy clothes and that, or buy girls clothes and that. There'd be police behind me with a regular bag and there'd be a camera in it. So they'd be reading me going into the shop. Then when I'd leave, they'd take photographs of the receipts and they built that up over 13 months and then come with the charge of conspiracy supply with pairs and the persons are known and then show that the general spends a huge amount of money the general's got a B10 Alpine worth£70 ,000 but he's only£20 ,000 do you see what I mean?

42:04now£70 ,000 back then is a lot more than what it is today so it's like the same card that I had back then it will probably cost you about£180 ,000 £190 ,000 to buy it now did you ever have a number to get out? A number in your head? Did you ever have a number that you were just so caught up in counting money? Yep, I was addicted to counting money. So I didn't develop that kind of a mind at that stage. I was quite young, remember. I was still young. I used to like parties, I used to like raves. So I'd make all this money and the whole of the week would all be about going to a rave. so we go to raves on the weekends and really just enjoy ourselves what I really liked was transforming the people's lives that was around me because none of us had money at first when I come out of prison because no money we didn't have nothing so every single one of them workers that I brought into the system he was in that position and it was just so nice to see them giving the parents money, you know, doing things at home for them, you know, so it transformed them.

43:15It literally just transformed all of our lives. So we was buying, you know, the top clothes, the top cars, and it was under time of our lives. We have to remember we was only kids, just kids. What are you thinking when you got a deal here?

43:30Do you know what? I was very, very strong-minded, you know. So I remember I've been in prison. I've been in as a very, very youngster. I've controlled the food market inside the prison. So going into that sentence, I was not scared. So I'm very, very confident, you know. Quietly confident, never like violently confident. You must have knew you were getting double figures though. Yeah, we did. We did. We knew. When did you see when you get to 14, like, did the penny drop? Like, how deep you were in that? Or were you thinking? Nah, do you know, like, I just say, okay then. So I'm like, yeah. This episode is brought to you by ChatGPT.

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45:28throughout my childhood my mother's always taught me that there's always somebody worse than you so once i got that sentence i just looked and thought okay here i am i'm a full son so you know one of the first things i've done i went around and looked at all the sentences on the doors because it would be on the outside of your door so i seen 18 24 30 years life life life 30 is 24 and I realised that my sentence isn't the biggest so we watch all the faces a lot of them have got smiles on their faces so they've already adapted to what the situation is so that just encouraged me just adapt to a lewy it's it's not the end of the world so then I just push through I literally push through the sentence so were you cat a then yeah cat a why did they put you cat a for like drugs because of how big the operation was nothing also it was down to a violence hat where the machine got pulled and the allegations were before I was sentenced to that there was an incident in the club you've got to remember Liverpool was a very very racist place at this time you know so outside of Liverpool when we was going to clubs there was a club called the Arda Cafe and then we'd heard of this club we'd never been there though and we went one time and I'd always heard that a lot of them pretty black girls would be knocked back from there but I thought let's just go there anyway and see so there was three of I think there's three of us or four of us and one of the lads was talking to a few white girls and she walked away with friends is it any luck and he went nah no luck you know I was gutted because he was all that nice so he had a few bits of ice in his cup he started throwing them at the girls so I said to him stop doing her you're a spursable and he went nah she was cheeky you know the way she knocked me back I said it doesn't matter Stop doing it So anyway next week We got surrounded by a dormer It was about 20 And he said we want you out And I said why And he went He has been throwing ice At here Like that just like that And I said okay So I seen it myself So I went out at them mate I said what time is it To one of the that And he said half 11 So I went Okay let's go We'll go to a different club So when we're on our way out He started pushing us So my mate The one who's throwing the ice there's one in front of me and me and then we made two strong on the ice and then one behind him yeah so the doorman pushed one all of us are getting pushed in a row do you see what i mean the only bullying because we was again we was kids we was only 19 i was 19 they was 18 and 17 and a 16 year old in that order yeah so i'm going stop pushing me and he's like it's not me this doorman so I'm going stop pushing him he's going get out niggas so my friend turns around and wants to get out I said whoa wait so I looks at this doorman he's just dead tall really skinny yeah my friend was more stuck here and he believed in himself they kept saying to me take let me take him anyway cut a long story short they heard that I said what you just wanna have all the niggas shouts come out so I said yeah I'll come then well you need to be able to win this fight like that so we got downstairs and they go and me friend was winning for a while but this guy ended up being a kickboxer ends up really wounding his ribs during the fight and they both hit the death and he ends up kicking him in his head so i run over and pushed him off in the end there was murder for doing that push because i got involved but i'm not going to allow to take another blow up against Israel so we had to write you niggas get back to Africa this time you there so the allegations are that I came back and called them back down we got off in the car now I'm supposed to have come back called them that and had more than a bad position 50 rounds was let off they're all supposed to have been screaming for me to stop and shouting we're not niggas and don't be calling us niggas so this incident this allegation that was put against me um it would have been one of the reasons why they made me a category so they were saying not only are these drug dealers they're not to use firearms as well so this incident is actually in another bar and you know the person of the book i'm not going to mention his name because that's his story you know but i think um listen the drugs and that but then if you're letting off 50 shots from a machine gun that changes everything that's not one or two shots that's a fucking well this is the whole clips allegedly yeah allegedly yeah suppose we've been let off by myself or all the shell casings were there for everyone to see but that stopped the racism from them because they was british national them so they was at that time it was the security team for the bmp and then they had like lots of door securities yeah so it was difficult for us to enjoy ourselves.

50:32But that one incident, we're interested about us. That's about black people. That's about defending who you are. Wanting to be able to go to a club and enjoy yourself. Do you understand? Like, we couldn't really do that. It was difficult coming outside of the area. But that put an end to it. It put a stop to it. We went back the next week. We got free pass. And we got a free pass in every single club. Because it goes, they're all in that way. They're all in that way. So when we come in, they'll be like, You okay, Lee? You're with? Serious? But anybody who pulls out an machine gun and fires a full clip, they're going to shite themselves because that's a different ball game.

51:09That's not going to grenade her. But it was on the air, so it's never been before. So I look at the gun crimes now and people don't realise that this incident that happened was the very, very first incident where someone takes, you know, a proper firearm and goes at a big team and puts every single one of them in a place and just stop, see? So you stop calling us like this. How bad was the racism? Because I had Michael Shillers on, who's a great guy, great story. He was one of the OGs back in the day and he got emotional still speaking about it from 30, 40 years ago. He believes it was the racism that actually put him in prison because he just had so much built up fucking anger for all the years of getting abused through his whole life to then going, you know what, fuck this.

51:53Yeah, well it was terrible, but you see, my mum taught me a bit more though, so like, you see, A story's been told about black people that, you know, were from carnivores and we've got no history. But my mum kind of knew some of the black history. So she set me straight. So I knew who I know I am. So I always looked at, well, you're the ones who are misinformed. I know why. But you're misinformed because we've got a massive history. We've got the ultimate history. You just don't know about it. and that's why you behaving like that. So I learned that from my mum. So it was terrible but it wouldn't knock me for who I am.

52:37I just had complete self-belief in exactly who I am. What jail did you end up in when you got your 14? So I went to Full Sutton, stayed there for about a year and then I was accused of being involved in a riot, no start in a riot. So they moved me from Full Sutton to Franklin. Then I was accused in there of slashing somebody's face so moving from there to Long Lantern and then in Long Lantern I was there for about two and a half years so about two and a half years in them two and then another two and a half years in there and then I was accused of controlling all the drug culture in there you know putting drugs on every single wing then I was moved from there to um Wandsworth block where they was trying to control my behavior 28 days there My life was threatening nerves, create that bad prison, you know, at that time.

53:28A lot of the stuff there ended up being done for like attempt murders and whatnot. So I was in the trap, I was in the trap there. I wouldn't open my mouth because I had the mouth for me. But in there I was like, okay, right. You just agree to everything. Segregation. What I'm talking about, you put me in segregation, 23 hours lockdown. You had like yellow lines where you could walk down in a sec and then it was back into you. So you get exercise, grab a book back to yourself. So right the way through my prison sentences, I don't know, eight years in total, I was accused in every single prison of controlling the drug culture in that prison.

54:05So I think I got 40 moves for suspicion of drug dealing in prison. What's the worst prison you were in? Wandsworth Segregation Unit, that same place, yeah. And Dartmoor Segregation Unit. I reckon that was worse because when I'm in the dark mode again I was in Long Island and they can't control my behaviour so they're accusing me of drug dealing they're saying this guy is unreal he controls a lot of what's going on all the wings so they're accusing me of all these things but every time they're coming to me they're finding Zara there's no death list there's no drugs there's no nothing so it's very very difficult for them to is he?

54:43isn't he? like with Ian no he is, it is it's him he was controlling it all So then they send you to what's called the lay down So they sent me to a Darkmoor Lay down And when I got on there They allowed me on the wing at first And then within about three days Loads of staff running to me cell Flap open Get up and get to the back Put your hands behind your back Come in handcuff you down the segregation unit And down there You'd be walking and exercising and you'd be like What are you niggas doing down here how dare you come down here and sell drugs all of that you know just like mind games and you can't answer them back you can't argue with them do you just rush it do you just press the button stream the biggest moments in sports live on Fox 1 the biggest names the biggest games the biggest matchups watch live or catch up on your schedule at home or on the go never miss a moment all on Fox 1 stream now in the US there's a break in every 26 seconds But when intruders step near, SimpliSafe Home Security steps up.

55:50Stop. This is SimpliSafe. Police are on the way. Using AI alerts, U.S.-based live agents help deter break-ins. SimpliSafe, no long-term contracts. Save 60 % on a new system with professional monitoring during our 20th anniversary sale at simplisafe.com slash Spotify. Outdoor deterrence requires a SimpliSafe Active Guard outdoor protection plan starting at$49.99 a month. Visit simplisafe.com slash licenses for alarm license information. Tennessee 2012. Starting a business can seem like a daunting task, unless you have a partner like Shopify. They have the tools you need to start and grow your business.

56:22From designing a website, to marketing, to selling and beyond, Shopify can help with everything you need. There's a reason millions of companies like Mattel, Heinz, and Allbirds continue to trust and use them. With Shopify on your side, turn your big business idea into... Sign up for your$1 per month trial at shopify.com slash special offer. and then the rest of the year staff will come running out and they'll put you in the position so you just got to be able to absorb it you know what i mean but what it does it gives you metal toughness so when you've been through all these situations you can handle anything there is nothing that i don't believe i can go through i can go through very very toughest regimes i think i served around about i'd say at least 12 months of that sentence in segregation because i've been in a lot of segregations.

57:12I've been in about 24 different prisons in the UK and a lot of them have been in a 23-hour lockdown. How I manage that is I'm always learning things and I like black history. I like anything to do with history. So I get books. So when they're putting it in the conditions of 23-hour lockdown, one-hour exercise, I just get a book and end up reading the book and then coming out smarter than what it went in. Do you understand what I mean? That's how I get through it. what's the worst thing you've seen in prison?

57:46Okay then so there's a guy, am I allowed to say names? Yeah, say what you want, yeah. Okay then, so there's a guy who ends up being accused of, well he's, he got found guilty of shooting members of his family, his mum, his dad, his younger brother, twins, and I think it's his sister yeah i watched this this is just unreal so basically we're waiting to go to the exited to the gym in long line we're waiting for the door to open the irish guy there's a lot of drinking in long-term prisons huge making and the staff don't really mind so long as you don't get out of hand so this Irish guy's coming up a bit drunk and he's being like you're a fucking nuns yeah you killed your own fucking family little kids and he kept punching him so I'm watching this I'm just sat there in a pair of shoes and best just watching so I'm by where the stairs to go back upstairs is so the Irish guy's come down and me giving it to him so he's punching him he punched him again and he's walked away from him but as he passed me he went right so I said hey mate he's dropped I went you see that guy he went yeah I said his name is Jeremy Bamber no Jeremy Bamber and he went to get the guy would understand sick killing you know where you kill him over your father and your siblings all for money he wanted the insurance money yeah so basically i said he's walked past and he went right him go right so i knew he's gonna come back so i said see that guy he went yeah i said he's coming back here you know he's gonna fuck him he's a fucking nuns he's killed his own fucking family little kids he shouldn't really be on the wing anyway he's then went back upstairs and then i just heard shhh like that smash of glass so when anything that happens in prison it's all exciting and everyone runs to the noise so about 20 of us have run up the stairs the kid now the Irish fella is standing with his nose completely cut off it was hanging by here upside down seriously you know and when we got up it was still white and then all you see look dot dot dot of red dot dot dot and then it started gushing I went oh like that and jumped back so the next minute the arms were gone off the nurses have come and when the nurses came we were all watching this they were screaming it was horrific you know like when you see someone's nose upside down hang them by here they wouldn't go near them so I went up to them and grabbed the padding and I felt sorry for the guy because no one was going near them and put his nose back on his face and held it and said to the nurse hold that like that and then a day later the governor's come to my cell and he said thank you very much the staff here have never seen nothing like that i said i haven't either i said but i felt sorry for him nobody would go near him it was horrific why would they put a serial killer though and refuse if he's killed kids and stuff crazy well imagine my situation so i've gone from being a kid of 20 living with serial killers do you know what i mean so they push me into these situations you know crazy crazy times where else we in with and you know Victor that's proper yeah he's Essex yeah so he's in me second boy do you know Ronnie O'Sullivan that's new company yeah Ronnie's dad yeah Ronnie he was in with a good friend of mine Blink McDonald from Glasgow they done a 16 for the robbery Ronnie's supposed to be a good guy yeah but he was one of me best mates so me and Ronnie were best mates for like two years inside Long Lantern so he needed a lot of phone cards so I had a system allegedly allegedly allegedly allegedly I'm getting a lot of drugs in A lot allegedly behind your name Leroy And it was a huge, he up to£1 ,000 a week you can give him in phone cards because remember he was a millionaire so through the porn industry and whatnot he had£2 million else so£1 ,000 a week all in phone so you need to have it create a system where it's generating it and these are the things I was accused of so you say he's a system creator Leroy he's a manipulator that's what we've called him he's saying he controls people he manipulates them look look look what's going on but he could never ever see anything for reality but yeah i was with him and who else There's another one, a famous one, Mickey McAvoy.

1:01:58They bring smack gold bullion. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I suppose him with him. So me and him got accused for creating the riot. But I was more accused. He was on my wing. Mickey's out now, is he not? Yeah, he's out, yeah. Yeah, he's a nice guy. I like Mickey. I think his friends are a good friend of mine, Andrew Pritchard. Yeah. Andrew used to get all the gear from Jamaica. Yeah. And he ended up beating his own case, man, with my technicalities and that. Like fucking drug dealers, they're mental in their mind. Like they're obviously the ones who are more, like you say, is manipulated as patterns, but Vic that proper always mentioned Vic.

1:02:33Plus he could fight. Vic cut off his own ears. No serious. He's one of those people. So when Ronnie was with us in prison, he was like, for protection. So no one could mess with Ronnie while he was there. his son ended up being the world champion while we was on the wings and he was like he's done it he's done it we know we're all happy for him we used to all just get drunk so over weekend we'd make hooch and then have the hooch turned into pure alcohol so now it's come back you get like from five liters of hooch and you can turn it into pure alcohol so we'd have a liter now of pure alcohol pour a little bit in a cup can of coke piece of ice take a bicarbonate and coke we sat there every weekend just drinking Bacardi's getting drunk singing songs all together for me prison wasn't that tough you know but i'm not exactly your average person were you still partying then innit were you taking ease on that with your neckies because you know you used to say you went to raves some people used to have coke but i'd never taken coke then so did we be in imagine you'd be in the wing on the friday and the saturday a few of them I'm maybe having lines, but I just have like a Bacardi and Coke.

1:03:45Do you know what I mean? It's not even Bacardi and Coke. We create the Bacardi and Coke through a hutch, yeah. How are you making your hutch? So just made with oranges in it, fermented orange. Bit of yeast. Sugar. Sugar. Leave that for about a week. Keep it a hold in the top cap so we can breathe. Open it, test it. Whoa! That's it, that's done. yeah I was drinking Hooch and Berlini when I was in the jail and I still never felt the same it was heavy it was fucking heavy I was tripping balls man this guy was saying it's the best Hooch ever I'm buying into it I'm thinking fuck it I'm only 22, 23 and yeah it would make every Saturday I think it was every Sunday because it was different screws and we used to put it in behind the little toilet pan you could open you could create it you know all the stuff so we had the same I ain't never felt right since yeah no serious that fucking fucks you up one time someone gave me the first time i had distilled so then how you done the distilled it was with the pan with the steam little hole with steam pans steam comes off you put a tube into that and then put it into a cup and drip by drip you keep testing it oh pure alcohol and pour that into a bottle and you test this sometimes and then it'd be weak you throw that part and then put more hooch in and the whole process of going all night I end up having that for the first time so I went into my cell and my cell's always extremely tidy there's the chair there's the table everything played off very very neat yeah got pieces of paper it's like a perfect cell nothing because I can just walk into it and I just know that straight up someone's been in my cell so anyway I fell asleep with the cell like that come in absolutely drunk fell asleep like that when I woke up the cell was smashed so I've got on my bell I said, what's happened?

1:05:34He said, I think the staff want to see you. When the doors opened, I said, who done that to me cell? Everyone was going, it was you. What do you mean? It was me. He said, it was you. I went into a blackout, was smashing me off this alcohol, smashed me whole cell up, and I was blaming everybody else. He was like, Leroy, when you got locked up, you just went mad. I was like, what the hell is that drink? Do you know what I mean? It's heavy, isn't it? How was Ronnie's dad when he obviously won the World Championships and he was doing his life? It was absolutely buzzing, you know. Like Ronnie was like a gentleman, you know, like proper, proper, proper gentleman.

1:06:10I got to meet his missus on visits, Maria. And Ronnie, I used to speak to his son after he won the World Championships on the phone sometimes. Because they always wanted to speak to me because the minute I walked in today, I kind of transformed the situation. he was only able to use so many cards and then all of a sudden he can have them permanently because I got him all the cards that he needed obviously for a fee do you know what I mean so yeah, Ronnie was just like we had the time of our lives so he's a semi-pro, ex-semi-pro footballer and I'm a good football player so we used to get on a pitch and do our stuff and yeah, it was just brilliant really brilliant so you've been accused, allegations all through sort of prison time like was there never any stages you thought I'm going to start trying to make amends after your first sentence or was it just straight back into action?

1:07:01No, well I think what happened is the toxic triangle give me such a warped sense of reality that back then when we went to prison there wasn't all the rehabilitation programs there are now I had never done anything which would alter my thinking do you understand what I mean? So I went into prison and came out the same person so I went straight back into it do you see what I mean it never ever stopped really while I was in prison like I said I've had about I think on that sentence 14 transfers for suspicion of drug dealing so there was I was never given anything where I couldn't look at myself that comes later in life and that's actually in me me third book when I started questioning everything I started to say wait dude if I can do that much and I can do it a number of times because I miss that I go on to talk about different systems that I create.

1:07:55If I can do that, why can't I do it legally? But there's something that happened to me in prison, which does stop me. But that comes later. For this first book, what we're talking about, it was the prison sentence. And I'd done the prison sentence, and it never had any effect on me, literally. But you're still young. You're only 20 as well. If you're in your 40s and 50s, you'll tend to see a lot of these lifers. Yeah. Maybe you did have advice, but you're just so blinkered by it. You didn't want to listen, especially at that age, at 20s, you think you know everything. Because some of the old lifers are quite wise.

1:08:29Yeah. Some of those guys that are doing 30 wrecks, they understand that it's not a life. Yeah. What did you do when you came out then for the first time after the big stretch? When I came out, everyone was on call. So when we was, I went to a party straight away, because I love a party, mate. Yeah, right. I'm above it. Absolutely loved it. I don't know how it's going to be. I'm just like pure, like I mean, when I'm in a party, I'm in my element. Do you know what I mean? We used to take ecstasy. Does your mind slow down when you're on the sniff or I take? No, well, we used to take ecstasy in the past.

1:09:03Yeah. And I got arrested when I was 20. So I'd never seen, I'd never actually taken cocaine at that stage. When I come out at 28, yeah, I was offered line to cope by the girls who was with us. They'd be like, nah, nah, Leroy, it's okay. you know this is what people do and I'm like what what what they're going nah nah nah Leroy's everyone's going nah fuck that they're like nah it's okay just have one and I'm going what and everyone's going this is what everyone does so there's a shift in from love doves you ever heard of love doves yeah it is talking about the best part of the drug that I wear the Metsubushes in that back then so it's a shift from love doves to coke and these is the first this is the first time I tried this new drug and this is the first time you see me change as a person because eventually I get addicted to that.

1:09:48What's your mind like though? Do you have OCD? Obviously you said you've got a photographic memory, but when you're talking about your selling stuff being so clean, can you draw a circle? Can you draw a circle like normal? Like actually a perfect circle? Yeah, I might not. No, because it says it's fucking people who do that are psychopaths. I'm not a psychopath though. Maybe I did that out, Leroy. I think you've just stuck yourself in. If you can drop it, I fix it. I'll tell you what's right. When I was taking cocaine, I was a psychopath because it transformed me. So like I didn't get diagnosed with him as being autistic.

1:10:28So later, yeah. Now that is not a good drug for an autistic person because already you had, you had wired to think differently. That's why I was always able to understand systems and create a better one that's existent and just make it a better one. So I can see the whole picture and then I can imagine a new one. they're all autistic skills now you put cocaine in that person and you can create a demon and that's what happened to me so I changed from a criminal who's considered Mr. Nice because all the girls say we love you Nino, we love you Leroy, we love you King like I'm called chill out by a lot of the girls I changed from that individual to one that just started scaring people because now I've taken too much of this a very addictive cocaine and it transformed my life into chaos now over the next 10 years and it's really a different person so the person I was on that could never have come on this programme and spoke to you the way I'm speaking what was it like taking a line for the first time?

1:11:29I said exactly what happened yeah, so I told you it's funny how when people talk about that first line I'm looking I'm feeling my shit coming like you lie all of a sudden the next minute I thought wow it's covering myself because all of a sudden I got dead sexually aroused I thought this thing is active come here do you know what I mean like straight away I went from being normal to being then to sex and I was like give me another one of them please do you know what I'm saying so quickly I just grabbed it You know what I mean? How bad does it take you? Oh, mate, I've done some of the most... In a nutshell, I've basically embarrassed myself because there's taking cocaine and there's taking it to a degree where now what that's doing to you is it's just making you pure paranoid, right?

1:12:26So you're going into a delusion. So now you're not even enjoying the drug now. You take it and you've taken that... The line's that big and it's that powerful because I've always been able to supply myself with powerful drugs, yeah? So the line's that big and strong right that that is going to send your head completely west yeah right and that's what it was doing so i have made myself i've embarrassed myself with my family and i've always i was really very unhappy about doing that um and yeah it just completely changed my life and i needed to address that and eventually i did address it why do you think you ended up addicted to it especially if you've been selling graft and seen the destruction it causes you think camera can play a bit of play and that as well well maybe it did and maybe you know the paybacks that for all the things bad things that I've done with the supply of drugs and you know creating people addicted to these drugs well maybe that needed to happen to me but yeah you feel it now you feel what it's like to be you know addicted to something which is going to cause you to do things which is going to cause your family to walk away your friends to walk away you know I've done some bad things against my friends in terms of bullying in terms of going to their homes and again allegations of machine guns and looking to kill them because I believe they're in bed with me woman when they're not me woman's down there and they're in another city but in your mind I'm thinking it yeah so that's where they sent me so maybe it's paid back for all the bad things I've done do you see what I mean and I'm willing to accept that but you snuffing over the day nah not so much every day I'm more of a binge of me so let's just say I've decided to use it on a Friday I can stay awake on it so once I've taken it because I don't take things like heroin or sleepers or anything like that and I don't smoke cannabis so once I'm up high it's very difficult for me to come down low the only thing that can bring me down now is lots of drinks so now in taking that I feel like I'm a horlick because I'm always drinking but because I'm always taking that charny I'm always having to drink to bring myself you know a little bit even so my binges might last two or three days then there's the calm down for two or three days so now you're wiped so I've gone from one of the most productive criminals to one that's still productive.

1:14:40Well, I've lost about 50 % of my production now because half the time I'm in bed, recovering, you see what I mean? Because you identified that with the young kids who were smoking weed. You thought I'll get up early, go to bed late, you'll steal their custom. So you had become, what cocaine done for me is it gives you a false confidence. So I think yeah, yeah, yeah, I can control that. It's not a problem for me. I can do that drug and that craft wrong you can't but you believe you can do you see what I mean now what you're doing is this you've gone from being that boss um gentleman or character to now you're slaying a little bit and you're slipping a bit and people are looking at you and they can see the change in you they start to see the change and they start to disrespect you and more devious ones start to wait for you to make mistakes once you won't quite know how much She's got round here so we can just take that and he's not going to clock that.

1:15:36You know, things like that begin to happen. Plus the paranoia and the accusations. So you end up creating a drama within your own circle and accusing family members, friends of doing things that they're not doing. But even if they was, I could never be sure because I was either too high or too drunk to be able to identify. Do you see what I mean? So it fucks everything up in a nutshell. Yeah, become a weakness to yourself. How much graft were you doing within that period? Were you still doing bits? Yes, heavy, heavy. So I go on to go all around the country and start to create systems in other cities.

1:16:13I've been accused of selling drugs in a lot of cities, a lot of them, and they've always been successful. I've never had a failure, mate, in terms of creation and having finance coming in heavy, you know, real heavy finance, you know what I mean? you know where I got to do my favourite thing once I come out is count money all the time you know but in taking that drug I used to have an opportunity given to me by a family member at B-Strom and I destroyed that opportunity and today that could have been still taking over that could have been something that I said well Clayton, tell you what I want to stop taking this drug it was a great opportunity but within 14 months of me being released I had to pass back that opportunity because now I'm going to jail and my lifestyle was mad.

1:17:06So there's a great opportunity with flats above it, boss bistro, you know, everyone used to come in would be like, I would love this would be my end game, you know, like, you know, 34 seated small restaurant here. So then just literally destroying it just through felines cocaine. And that's what cocaine can do. It can destroy legitimate businesses. Yeah, it destroys lives. It destroys your own life and the people around you's life. It depends how much obviously you're taking. When did you get to jail for the second time?

1:17:37I'm trying to remember what sentence that was. Let me just recall that one. How about that many sentences now? Which one was it? Yeah, you said you've got four sentences, is it? yeah yeah so about like seven so do you give an example of a mad one with cocaine and dealing so i'm accused of being in control of norfolk so you're talking about low stuff yarmouth and norwich yeah so the allegations again what the police are saying is he controls all of them free yeah now the drugs are coming from London I'm in Liverpool so it's like a trip from there to there to London to get the drugs to bring them back to transform them because I'm always messing about with drugs and change with quality yeah so I'll change all the qualities and then the allegations are the nice spreader between these places yeah now I'm one of the people that was there the graph was so fast that quite quickly it caused me back now I didn't have that kilo available so it's just kilo and a kilo of heroin kilo of cracked white powder that they wanted so I'm in Liverpool I'm off me face and this phone call comes through now I had somebody who was related to me who a female member who would do this driving job for me and um what happened is the the car that i told him not to use just for him doing the jobs then we're using it on a school run i put a dent in the side of the car so i said that car is not perfect to do this job don't worry about it i'll deal with this one now i don't need to do this journey you know the cocaine's made me super too super confident so i said to the girl i'm sniffing with him we've been up for days already do you want to come to London she went yeah so I put some money in her car quickly goes and grabs the um kilo of um the kilo of um cocaine and then we're heading off to get the kilo of heroin yeah so we've gone from Liverpool to London we've drove by Elephant and Castle police have checked the registration and it's come back a relative of mine but could be associated to me so quite quickly I've been boxed in by loads of police and they said why are you down here and there's drugs in the car isn't it and money yeah so it's 24 ,800 a pound in a car plus the kilo of a coat so I've went to him why are you even asking me them questions so he said well look we just want to search this car so straight away I've been arrested now that cocaine because it's so strong and it gives me so much confidence all my abilities as a very good strategic supplier have gone out the window because this drugs took over my mind do you understand so rather than them have a big investigation where it took them 13 months to originally arrest me didn't it it took them one day this time do you see what i mean because i give myself up to them by going in my own car and making all these mistakes so this is where cocaine sends me so now i'm going to save a of sentences because of cocaine next.

1:20:54I want to say a lot but I'm still very very very active yeah in the drug supply chain where I'm going to get caught a lot of times. So I went from the original one being hard to find, hard to arrest, them saying we've never seen them near drugs, to now just being caught with them all the time. So something's a change isn't it? What is it? Cocaine. What was your sentence for that? Seven years. Well she's not too bad, they could have fucking gave you more than your first one So I just plead guilty straight away So you took the deal? Yeah What jail did you go to? I was in Brixton, it was brilliant you know, I loved it Was it?

1:21:31I swear I've gone hate to I've never done any good things about Brixton No I've never done any good things about Brixton Well what it was That's because you're not as easy to get grafted No it's okay if you're black in there Yeah No if you're Caucasian in there that's a nightmare you know No look, I'm used to being in prisons where the majority is Caucasian I'm so used to it. But you take the person from... It's all the Yaddies down there, aren't they? Serious, yeah. You walk on the wing, there's like 200 people and all black and muscular and staring at you. So all the lads from Liverpool have been to Brixton on appeals and they have to do overnight.

1:22:03They've said, oh my God, I swear, that was so scary. People are terrified of Brixton. I loved it because Brixton is one of the... well, Brixton ones with scrubs. All these prisons, the staff are also black. yeah so when I went into Brixton one of the lads comes to me and he goes I know you your name's Leroy and yeah yeah yeah from Liverpool yeah we all know you down London so I've become like notorious all around the country at this stage that I want to show you something brother you see all the staff in here the people that you're seeing down here these are all related to prisoners you know I'm like sure so he's like yeah he goes Leroy we can do things here you can get you know McDonald's and Kentucky I'm like what in serious but it was brandy you know this is something that i weren't used to i was used to going to them top cat a jails where you know there were caucasian officers from you know the locality of let's just say gloucester where you've got no chance to get into there and here you can have anything you want you know for a price so i'm like yeah man i like this jail who are you in with there um so the local lads in it so you've got the gangs down here, so you know people from Peckham, people from South, North so you had a lot of gang cliques, it's loads, but as a black person from Toxteth what has happened at that stage is it's being spoken within the criminal fraternity that legal is a person that's made a million pound a few years ago these only young kids who's driving Porsche, beat up, panty about everything on saying sentence he's done a really big one given to him as a kid so lots of people in the prison system knew my name so I was always getting getting in very quickly and then very quickly I will control their drug chain as well or allegedly.

1:23:50Were you still sniffing? No no no stopped. How was it how was it on the come down with that when you got a seven? The seven? That's the ultimate come down you get a come down just lying in your own bed never mind. No I'm not even gonna lie I want to tell you the real reason why I was singing in the car. So I'm driving through Elephant Castle singing. And my singing attracted police. I was off my cape. I'm going in. I'm sure it was in. My wonder world. I'm singing. And one of the police officers said, what's he doing over there? He just brought my car over. I got myself Nick singing. I was like, off my cape.

1:24:28Serious. I've told you the truth now so everyone knows. It was mad though. I know how the girls take you. So then when I've got a name, quite quickly I've just got home because I've had left for like two or three days. So I'm just eating food, eating food, eating food, eating food, eating food, eating food. And then people are just coming to me, yo, bro, is your name Leroy, bro? Yeah, yeah, bro, know you, man. You're a man's name, you're a man's name. Do you know what I mean? And then introducing me to this one, to that one, to this one, to that one. So when you've got a name in prison, people look out for that name because everybody wants to get up on a ladder, don't you?

1:24:57And they want to network with you. Do you know what I'm saying? so where i go on to them creating a lot of networks in london way let's just say um i'm at the stage where i'm not read quite ready to give up the trade but i can also control trades from prison and i can also control let's just say i was accused of this norfolk thing well take me out to the equation and when i'm in prison and i'm not saying okay no more and i've got a mobile phone there's no reason why that should stop do you see what i mean so i'm accused of the continuation of from the prison. What did you do when you got out? Was you partying again?

1:25:32Straight back to a party. Couldn't get me out of a party. At that stage in my life because it's How old were you then? I think I was about 32 then. Right. So you're young. And I met a girl over the world from Liverpool and I had another great opportunity with this girl. The cocaine takes everything away from me. So I've got the ability to turn over illegally. I don't know if this is wrong but I'm suffering through this now at this stage now, right? I'm more or less an addict myself. So, you know, it doesn't matter. People can say what they want to say. You know, there's bad addicts where you take crack and heroin or cocaine's not that far behind, you know, do you know what I mean?

1:26:13It's not a clean drug. It's a dirty drug. It's more glorified though. It's just a glorified thing. But if they're proper in that now. But when you find yourself in parties three days later and you haven't been in the shower, let's get real, realistic and look at the facts here. You haven't even been washed you. So you know, it's a dirty drug. So you know, I'm going through all these things and I don't mind putting myself down. Do you know what I mean? Because you lose a lot of weight. What? I used to be like, sucked. My brothers used to say to me, you look sucked. You know, I'd be like, you need to shut up.

1:26:43I don't mean it that you look like that. But you're dead God. So it'd be like that. But in my, I mean, it wouldn't give you enough confidence where you couldn't see that. I could see it. But you desire sometimes to have that. And other line, I could stay off it for a few days. But once I'd started using it, it would happen for a few days. And then I'd be off it for a few days. And then on for a few days. I've never been a person that can take it every day. I couldn't go with that. But being off it for a few days gives you that false sense of you're not an addict. You're in control. Yeah. It gives you that.

1:27:14You're in control. You're actually an addict. Do you know what I mean? Because for that three days, you can't stop it. You can't stop taking that. And that's what I went through. how much would you sniff at the weekend home mate I don't even need that much sniff you know because of the way I think just a few grams just a few grams is enough so I've never been I've never done any damage to my nose or you know some people have got major damage in the cartilage area yeah that's never happened to me because I've never been a huge sniffer just a couple just about two grams is enough to keep me away for two days and there's some people I know they can sniff two grams in a couple of hours but I used to get proper shit could have allegedly buying the kilos of it yeah so you don't even need to you know don't even need to snap a piece off just add a bit of bash to that so the price that you're getting back with this kilo now because the allegations are with me is that my graft has shifted from what i was doing as a youngster into now just supplying kilos to people all around the country in different cities yeah now you can just snap a piece off and that's enough to get you through like maybe two two weeks of sniffing yeah add a bit of bash and it's cost you nothing and i've always said to people let me tell you something do you know if you was in my position where you had that much money and you had a lot of money it's because there's loads of people who would have been back crooked it's the only reason why you know is because you haven't got the money to afford it because i've seen the girls in parties and they want to say and if you keep giving them they both stiles now if they had the money yeah they leave you and then carry on sniffing in their own so they're the kind of people that bring you down yeah yeah he's a black hook and I'd be like no you're just as bad as me you just haven't got the fucking money do you know what I mean yeah I preferred doing it was full of bins seeing it was 50-50 I didn't mind that when the face was all numbing that raw the raw's horrible isn't it yeah it's scary isn't it yeah nah that's so that's what sent me around the bin raw fuck that bro yeah raw it's too much you see all those kids on it now, in one line you're out for 24 hours, man.

1:29:19Yes, serious. You see people wired to the moon. I can remember one time, I'm not even glorifying taking cocaine because it's horrible, but I remember taking, buying a key, you know, trying to be a bit, look, I can talk for England anyway, but I'm taking the line and I swear down for about four hours I could not stop talking, you know. It just got me in a mad way. Way. Even one time I was with, another time I was with a brother and I've talked another line of real raw cocaine and I've talked that long a younger brother who really looked at me went, Leroy, please can you just stop talking, please do you know what I mean?

1:29:58It's not good about it, is there? How was the feeling when people who were close to you were saying, listen, you're a mess now how hard was that for people to see especially if there's like issues and people were scared to address anything No one would really tell me it kind of like just actions speak louder than words don't do so they kind of just slip off away and then you can't really get them on the phone or they're not people you can see your number so then I started to wear help like you're pushing everyone away and I come point in my life where I lost almost all my family and all my friends because later I get a sentence and it's only a three-year sentence and I never got a single visit from family or friends because of my bad behavior What was your fault sentence?

1:30:47It was another five years and I was falling with half a kilo of wearer and then I'll explain this one to you so I've gone to I think it was half a kilo or a kilo I can't even remember the actual weight but a fella has brought me from Preston and he said to me can I get a kilo I think it was a kilo and I went yeah so I've said okay then where is he Preston I'm down by Chester so I'm like okay then I get this kilo dropped to here it's a casino by there because I started playing poker at this time so I thought that's an ideal place so I dropped this kilo at the end with the kid then going to the casino but I was I was wanted through um through all the charges I was actually wanted I went wanted they wanted me for questioning on a false imprisonment where I was off me cake someone who's holding money for me is following the police and said i'm really scared of the and i felt trapped by him just that one sentence created a charge and a question of false imprisonment yeah so anyway i'm waiting for this girl to clear this so she's like i'm so so sorry about that you just scared me i had to phone the police remember cocaine and then you're scaring everyone now um and and i'll get it all cleared up for you so anyway i went okay left chester went to drop this half kilo he's not ready so far let me go into the casino i've got a rucksack on with the kid on the mat let me just go into the casino and buck me table as i walk through someone recognized me and went he was on crime watch the other day he's wanted the creepiest heard that told the manager the manager's here they told the police i'm upstairs now remember i told you go can't get you nicked dead easy i'm upstairs buck myself on the table and this guy is on his way there by the time i've finished bucking myself in and looking at that buck table I might want to go on to play, I want to take some money off these I don't want to go on that table I come running downstairs to drop the kilo off and no to police running so I run back the opposite way and they chase me, grab me they would say we only want you for questioning over this woman they take the bag off me they don't realize so I'm they're not even trying to get me on drug charges but now because of my my because I scared that girl when I was on coke it's now got me nicked on discharge do you see what I mean now So cocaine was responsible For me getting Nick time and time again So I knew that I needed to address this issue Which eventually it got addressed So you went into the casino with graft?

1:33:14With a kilo With a kilo Who does that? So in my second book With my cameras and everything No, in my second book The chapter is Who the hell Have you ever heard of being arrested In a casino with a kilo of heroin? Do you know what I mean? So it's just incredible What about the gambling? How bad are you going to gambling? Nah, not that I was playing you know Were you? Yeah, I was that good I swear I am I mean you don't get a swisset or I've lost like loads of I can't believe you were in the casino with a fucking box like you No, no, because I'm just like they're brave in it So because I've lost that many people around me People are very wary of dealing with me I start to have to do some of the runs myself I didn't have to I could have created a team again But I'm in that much of a hurry Because cocaine makes you do things fast Like I'm not scared So I'm like But I'm just going to jump in a private taxi So there's no way police could know And they didn't They didn't know I was there It was because I walked in the casino And someone recognised me And because I was on crime watch recently He was like He's wanted You see what I mean Yeah so But no one realised He's got a kilo in the back In his ruchster So I got arrested again Yeah it's just kamikaze jobs Get that quick couple of quid That's what I'm saying And then You feel as if you're untouchable Yeah so like That drop off stood me about £4 ,000 quid Where did you go?

1:34:32What jail? So I went to Preston So I was not Oh listen I was dead skinny at that time So I'm taking that much cocaine And I bought a house in Chester And I'm in there Just binging all the time I'm feeling depressed Let down by my family Friends aren't really ringing me You know like My phone's gone from one That doesn't stop ringing To hardly ever ringing at all Unless it's for graft In terms of friends and family This phone's not ringing So I started to get a bit depressed And I went into my shell I lost confidence in myself So the more and more confidence I was losing The less and less people I had around me The more and more I felt on my own So I felt like I need to just keep doing things on my own So like I said, cocaine starts to transform The whole of my life Do you know what I mean?

1:35:19How long were you on it for? 10 years? Just off and on for about 10 years, 8 years, on like that So I was spending that much time in prison that I was clean more than what was on drugs. The minute I come, I was just starting again, partying again. I'll start off dead gently, just a couple of lines this night and get you right down. Yeah, but you're not going to do anything to the point where a few weeks later, where are you? You can't get here on the phone because you won't come out of that party. Listen, I love the fucking partying as well, bro. So I understand it, like the shit that you do because it's, for me, it was the escape.

1:35:57I fucking loved the escape Because my mind was always Always a hundred mile an hour anyway So this is now my escape We're non-stop because it's just The escape still is another addiction It's more healthier But whenever I was sniffing I would be in control The music, the gear, chopping up lines I was a fucking It's so weird to explain But I was just in the control That music on, put the legs down a bit Shut those cutters It's your line now It's like a timer everybody so we could prolong and if anybody left I'm thinking no cunts leaving yeah because I would get sad yeah no I was trying to prolong that you need people to argue with don't you know so like for me mine was about reward so I'd be like I'm just king me you know like I've just made so much money this week I need to give myself that line and then I'm just gonna stay up because nothing can stop me like I'm just taking pieces all the time of weight that I'm giving the work so I can just do as much as I wanted.

1:36:57Yeah. And I was rewarding myself for me, um, in my mind, um, me amazing ability. Ah, supply. Do you know what I mean? I kept rewarding myself and this thing got worse and worse. And what you need is you need people with you. So you start ringing people nonstop, nonstop ringing. Yeah. You use everybody else, but they're using you for the gear as well. So everybody's winning. Yeah. I got so many people sacked from their job. their missus have left them because it was just three, four days. Like, just stay out. I would try and get in their head, like, you only live once and there's people doing 30 years and you're worried about...

1:37:31You black everyone. Yeah, I know. You just black four, don't you? Like, I've literally had loads of girls doing the jobs of just being gone. But the party's so good to them. They don't want to leave themselves. But it's dead selfish, isn't it? Because you know, you're like, I don't want to get sacked, but I just can't leave you. You're just that beautiful. Do you know what I mean? Serious. What about the fourth sentence where you got your three? All your sentences have went down though. Yeah. For a 14, 7, 5, 3. It does go down a little bit, yeah. So that was... Is that because... That was, I was going to get a seven for that, and I'm pretty guilty and he gave me some discounts so I'll end up getting five years, eight months.

1:38:07And then I get to the next day, my goal is to... I get arrested in Liverpool with firearms. And again, it was off my cake again. So, it wasn't a gun, it was rounds of ammunition, this one. and there was a small amount of heroin. It was like testers, you know, like I'm always getting people offering me kilos. So they give me the sample. And MOTs? Yeah, MOTs, yes. So they give me the samples, yeah. So I got them inside this apartment in Liverpool. The girl I was with has ended up like, it was a nightmare, getting kicked out. I was living with her. So in the end I thought, let me just get myself an apartment in Liverpool city centre.

1:38:44I get to that. I go, I put, and then I'm so paranoid on this drug down. I'm thinking I need things around me innit? So somehow or another I've destroyed the place where this stash was where all these rounds of ammunition were so inside the bag there's about 132 rounds of ammunition some sawing off the front of the shotguns but not the main part which you use to shoot and then just the wooden part at the back so the section where you need to shoot was missing so I wasn't done for the proper firearms but on this occasion I'm out again and there was people around me I believe he put me into the police where they would have said to the police you go to this and he'll definitely have things in his house so anyway the police come and raid this apartment block and they use the excuse that the car's not parked quite straight but go through the door so it was a bad excuse but when they come in there they find these firearms and a small amount of drugs so the cut along story shows they just got a three-year sentence and that's the sentence where not a single family member or friend came to see me.

1:39:47So I knew at that point I'm going to change this time, right, when I come out because that was sad for me. It really was. It was so hard for me to do that sentence. So it was the smallest one and the hardest sentence. It really was difficult. What was it actually like to look yourself in the mirror and realise, yeah, I've fucked it here. It's dead sad, you know. It's dead sad. You're just so caught up in your own madness though, in your own mind, that from the young kid the reputation being very calculated yeah good operation operation but you got a 14 stretch but you've then come out and just went sort of nuts yeah yeah i just went nuts just crazy but do you think that how do you think that was though like where you've been on it and realized now i'm not going to take that look at them they're smoking weed so i'm going to be two steps ahead to then completely not in control yeah so to become in the reverse in it so everything that you was teaching everybody what they were in the mistakes they they were making you now made all of the same mistakes even not even worse so it was horrible to look at myself and say yeah look at this like look how much you've changed you know but this thing can be addressed the only thing that you need to do is to stop with that drug so it wasn't really hard for me to stop i just naturally just decided well you know what enough's enough do you know what i mean there comes a point in your life where you just want to change and yeah so I just completely stopped and then I went on to look at myself and do something that Maisie taught me she always says to me you're much more than a criminal before she passed away she says she passed away when I was in prison but I about three months before that I was outside and I knew she was ill so I went to see her she was living in Coventry at the time and I went up there to see her and she said is that you Leroy because she could hardly see her at this stage and I said yeah it's me mum you know and she's like Leroy I just want you to know you know I've always loved you you know regardless of whatever trouble you got regardless of all the troubles with your family and I was like yeah yeah I know that mum and she said Aileen she goes you know you're much more than a criminal you you know she said you know that your own family members they love you you know they're always speaking about you and I'm like yeah yeah she goes Leroy make me a promise before I pass I was like go on she said help other people she said you've got the ability to do it so yeah I left there went back to prison she passes away and I was never allowed to go to that funeral yeah because her name had changed she was married and her name was Mary Udo and no matter what I said because of my previous criminal history they said don't let him out you'll bring shit inside this prison so that they knocked me back from that and I had to suffer that was a very tough night that night but anyway yeah so we come to a stage when I decided let me make this change fully yeah I always remember what my mum said she said you got the ability to open and I know she was right because I see it when I speak to people so I decided to create a motivational speaking company and decided to write books and decided to use all the experience that I've got from all of the crimes that I've committed and try to show people that you might not be as tough and get out of it as clean as what I have because some people come out and misrepresent you know this already i was able to sustain it but why not use all that experience to help people to understand what the time how hard was that for you to be in prison for the woman who's looked after you done everything she can because you potentially would have been dead if that woman never took you under her wings like how hard does that because that's the only thing about change when you start realizing the regrets the fuck up because when my dad passed I was just out the jail I was banging on the snuff I was gambling I was full of weed I was fucking banging Valium every day so when he passed he seen me at my worst from the young kid who had a football career had the ability to do anything to then fucking dead at 23 knowing he's a fuck up he knew I had potential I never really started to tap into it until my 30s but how hard was that for you do you know what one of the toughest things for me is that period of sniffing cold that was like over a 10 year period that maybe 12 years yeah now what my one of my biggest regrets is that i didn't do enough for Maisie and i and i didn't get the opportunity because Phyllis dies before to have gotten old enough to have seen that problem like for instance Maisie used to have falsies because she was quite an old woman she passed into her mid-80s now i would have loved to have taken her to Turkey to get her teeth done so you know when i see it like it's still me regret to this day oh why wasn't I like at this stage and why wasn't my mum alive when I could you know so I regret that you know because I've got a lot of love to give no matter what I've done to my family I care for every one of them me ego and me mind was just a mess at that moment so I look amazing I think about Phyllis and there's so much that I could have done and I feel like I've lost that opportunity, you know what I mean?

1:44:47It's tough. So even to this day, they're my biggest regret that I couldn't have grown up fast enough to have helped them. Do you see what I mean? What did you used to think when you realised that your mum was struggling with addiction? Eh, Phyllis, autostromatic. And then you'd become similar, if not worse. Yeah, similar, yeah. So, but you question yourself, you think, am I an addict? Am I an alcoholic? Maisie used to think I was alcoholic because she'd only see me drinking but sometimes I go to see Maisie and I go into the toilet and have a few lights so she didn't realize I'm trying to control the lights she think oh Leroy's drinking a lot he's turning into his mum but I've never been you know I've never really fully believed in addiction I believe in dependencies though so I've never been dependent on cocaine I've just liked it um I've never been dependent on alcohol I've just liked it yeah so but I know that Phyllis was dependent on alcohol for a lot of the years in her life so she was a giant to suddenly just stop drinking that would affect her body wait she knows it's a daily thing for her yeah she becomes dependent on it so when I looked at that and I put my own wisdom to her I said well I'm not really even an addict you know I just like it but then just stop stop using it so when you stop using it I always like you know with the lads I'll just go off with a drink now and it's just not a problem and I don't need to take cocaine because I've had a drink.

1:46:08You know, I've understood the dangers of it and to keep it out of my life. But at the same time, I feel like I've got something to give in terms of helping people understand it. So through my errors, trying to, you know, put blockers on people going through what I've been through. Yeah, but you've lived a life. You've been in prison many times. You've battled with addiction. You know, you've come from the broken home as well. And I say this nearly every podcast, but the broken home does steal from, it does have a lot to answer for kids, boys and girls and how they become in life, it really does set them up when they don't have that stable loving household, you know, and I think the UK is struggling with that family mould and family morals and how none of it exists anymore, none of it the divorce rates through the roof, everybody's fucking everybody's wired to the moon anyway you know, when you started making those changes in, how when did you start realising, okay right, I'm starting to feel good again, I'm starting to be more productive and trying to get out the game as well like it would all come hand in hand it would have been um well very quickly for me so i kind of like fully completely stopped with that parting about two years ago and then the minute what happens is this the minute you stop partying you start to become yourself the minute i become myself i then become productive so then i understand who i am and what my abilities are so straight away i said okay then motivational speaking there's going to be something natural for me yeah so i can go into many institutes be um uh youth interventions be it universities where people are doing um um degrees on um you know criminality and you as that person coming in and doing speech you be it in sport and institute yeah i can go into these places once i stopped you start to get the real leeroy so i need okay then you've got your energy back now you've got energy but you wake up every day and you know you can do things what are you going to put it into so i identified that so all of a sudden i've become dead productive then i realized i've got so much energy okay then let me write books so i've decided to then write 10 books over the period of just 24 months so like the way i put that graph together over 24 months i'm in the process of challenging myself to do equally as good in the legitimate world with 24 months worth of book writing and this first book, Leroy, it's the first one that's going to be released on a trilogy and yeah so I've got another, how can I put it, I've got my passion back but I've got my passion back in the correct way this time so all I'm doing is just using all that experience and saying you can change people What's your biggest regret?

1:48:52My biggest regret would have probably been taking cocaine, you know. That is my biggest regret. Because it changed me that much. So then what you do, you've got a person who's lost about 10 to 12. Not in prison. He's actually lost him outside the prison this time. So you've lost all them sentences you've done. Plus when he was out, he was a waste as well. So it's a double whammy, yeah. If I never told that, I don't believe I would have. maybe wouldn't have even been here but I feel like in many ways because I'm able to withstand traumas and prison sentences and prison sentences and it keeps not having any effect on me it takes someone like that to see all these people that have all suffered and hung themselves and become addicts and then they're all out like this it takes someone to go in there come out clean to then be able to speak about it properly to people where they can try and prevent them from going in again do you understand what I'm saying it's going to take somebody from within that because they're not like inside prison no rehabilitation program worked on me because it wasn't really written from the true person's perspective but I believe I could go and rewrite rehabilitation courses which would have much more of an impact on prisoners today than what the ones which are being created by governments because I don't believe they have any impact so let me try and push it and see if I things like that you understand where I'm coming from.

1:50:13Were you ever suicidal? No. Never think about taking the brown? No. I know a lot of kids man who's just not with back in the day 20 years ago that ended up on that. Yeah because that's when like that's when people are finding it very very difficult to cope so they want to hide in the shell in it because brown's going to take you away from that and I've reached to smoke weed either inside or outside the prison so I would just face whatever problem I've got I'm facing it head on so I just find a way to deal with it but I've always used education and how's life like now then obviously so the plan for the books first of all how many books you're talking 10 books yeah that's a lot of books and the first one is just being released yeah where can people buy it on amazon and what's the process of the next nine so um I'm hoping to come back here in six months I'm on the release of the second one come back here on the release of the third the third and final one which will be a year to today's date yeah then every possible three months we can go through the rest so the fourth book is in 64 reasons why never to go to prison so i put 64 traumatic events that i went through or i've seen people go through as a deterrent to going in there but also the 64 um informative um ways to understand that deterrence.

1:51:34So it's a bit of a complex book, but it's one way if you've got anybody that you feel is going down the wrong path, an experienced prisoner will show you 64 reasons why you shouldn't go in at first place. The one after that relates to drug taking, and I'll stop there. I'm kind of giving you two. What's the best advice you've ever had, first of all? Well, I think it's from my mum. Amazing. So the best advice I've ever had, and this is what got me through every single prison sentence. She said, there's always somebody worse than you. And once you understand that, you can identify what it is, yeah.

1:52:11So why are you even moaning? Because look at their situation. So it allows you to suck up what you can face and fight it. Do you see what I mean? How's life like now? Perfect, you know. So basically, I've been asked not to mention the series yet, but there's a writer being made where people have asked me to do acting and I've got a very well-known screenwriter in Liverpool who's read the first book and he said it's one of the best books he's read and he believes that this can go straight to Netflix so they're making their trailers and pilots and teasers and as a package with my book are going to push for Netflix.

1:52:57So, you know, if that was to get there, you know, we're talking about certain history. So basically my Facebook is very similar to New Jack City, but in Liverpool. So he could see the similarities, only it's done by kids. So very, very thoughtful kids with entrepreneurial skills. So no violence in getting there. they can just do it by creating good strategic planning so he's seeing it straight away, there's a very very unique for one so young to have been able to achieve something like that yeah so How hard do you think it is for kids now on the streets especially Liverpool, Glasgow a lot of big cities, Birmingham, London as well like there is a lot of madness on these streets how difficult do you think it is for them I believe it's well difficult because the gang culture is taking over hasn't it?

1:53:49So what kids are doing now they're falling in line with gangs because even in liverpool the gangs have really built up london it's just unbelievable but liverpool they're falling in line with that so each group has got a team around them so what you're getting now you're getting young people automatically in fear because the safety of numbers isn't it so each gang that's being created for singular people or individuals we're trying to get out about that's intimidating so then they might say i can't cope with this on me on let me go into a gang so it's it's it's snowballing out of control so something really needs to be done to address that because you know people are getting killed for like you know really ridiculous things and then you've got the social media side of it so people are like using that to um glorify some of the crowds you know so all of these are having a big impact on kids the drug epidemic's massive just now you know a lot of people's trouble and from all different kinds of drugs, pharmaceutical drugs and that as well.

1:54:53For anybody watching that's maybe battling right now, that's on the gear or struggling with something, what advice would you have for them?

1:55:04Best advice I can ever give to anyone. It's very difficult for me to address those that are already on it. But for people that haven't tried it, it's to just not try it at all. Because most drugs are synthetic at the moment. so the cocaine today compared to the one that got me into trouble they're two different cocaines and these new cocaines then that's not proper cocaine there might only be 30 % cocaine so you don't really know what you're taking so to be very aware of that um this um what drug did you just mention before there's um ket ketman this is for it's so cheap and so I know a few people that I've known from years ago that was fine, was having a few lines, they've got onto KET and now got organ failures, you know, they're carrying shit bags and piss bags.

1:55:59So, you know, because that's a cheap drug, do not take that drug. Do not, like, it's really, KET is causing a big problem in the cities. And to look for those who have transformed their lives and ask them for help. My brother, how are you feeling today? I'm feeling good, you know. Would you like to finish up on anything else? No, I'm quite fine. I enjoyed this. What about your social media and stuff? So basically, I'm only on just normal Facebook accounts. So I want to put some of this on it. So the clips that you send me, I'll put them on Facebook. I'm trying to improve it. So it'll be after the first book.

1:56:36So hopefully that's successful. And I get something from a snowball effect. And I'll put some of these clips on it. Listen, Leroy. It's nice. Listen, thank you. I wish you nothing but the best for the books, brother. stay on the path keep doing great things and I look forward to seeing what you do for the future God bless you my brother thank you