My Fall Out with True Geordie - Laurence McKenna Opens Up

36:10What was the Logan Paul one When he done the suicide one I think Brian done a video And then Because I remember looking Because it's funny And if I'm honest When you watch other podcasts You want to be the best Of course But he was just so far ahead I had like 50 ,000 And he was like 500, 600 But then he done a video And then he went past a million Because I remember him doing a video And he says I thought him He says we've made it And I think lucky bastard There's a bit of envy and jealousy there But you know So Did you ever mention like did you ever mention us like did you ever have a couple of times but i had guests on but i never um andrew tay had mentioned but i think that was more the end as he mentioned yeah right yeah right that i would never like i've always spoke highly of it but and in your own mind though because you want to be number one it's like everybody then becomes competition from somebody who you actually enjoy watching you then want to be them but i think you would have said that on a podcast at that time so i can't speak for brian and i definitely wouldn't speak for him now but i remember we had kind of conversation we would he would he was a relentlessly competitive person and that's you know it spreads from having an ego and all those kind of things and we were both quite egoic guys like you know we're in our mid-20s early 30s and i do remember having uh chats about your show and being like oh that fucking guy's a bit of a problem like he's you know you were doing good interviews with people.

37:34But Brian would particularly want to beat everyone else. Like he didn't just want to be the best. He wanted to beat these other podcasts. But you on those people who was always on the radar is like, you know, because we had, you had a lot of great guests in that time. You, a friend of mine, actually Brian's old editor called Gio. And I always had a joke about your podcast was that you would, you would facilitated what we called the podcast wars, which was Sean. Atwood. Atwood. And whichever other criminal guys you would have on the podcast, who would go back and forth going, that story's not true.

38:11That story's not true. And at the time, it was so sincere and so... It was very heavy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I imagine that was a lot of... At the start of a period? It was a very heavy time back then. Weirdly, like now, if you did that, I would feel very self-indulgent from their part. But now, back then, it felt very apt and of the time. Yeah. And we called that the podcast wars because you would have these people on and they go back and forth and they'd almost be battling to get on to give another story to you about X. And then Sean would come on our show and go, well, this guy said this on this and then that went that way and then this happened there.

38:47And we would be like, OK, I don't know who these guys are, but like and then there'd be clips and Sean would like message me or another guy would message me and be like, Sean said this on your podcast and this isn't true. And Gio and I would laugh about it. We thought it was just so funny that these warring ex-prison killers, not Shaun, but like a couple of the guys, would just be so furious over what felt like playground politics. That's what it is for me. That's handbags. I don't really like it because when you're on your own lane, I think when you've got other people there, you can indulge in it more.

39:22But I just wanted to stay in my lane and I started making money. So I didn't want anything to jeopardize that. I've come through a fucked up life. everything was going great and then some and then it's such weirdness because you don't taste hate like it because people make lies up and the thing is people believe what they see everybody does it until you actually respond and then people it's funny because people be the victim and then I respond and go well then I told you what it was like but I'm only responding to what people are saying like in my 7-8 years of doing this I don't call out people I don't talk shit but sometimes you like to put your head above the clouds and go because it's so personal and people think that staged ain't fuck all staged like these are the worst stuff that people are saying but you see people's true colours because you start looking at who's liking their posts and stuff and you go that bastard follows me I thought he was my friend you start on following people and you know what you have sleepless nights you can't sleep you wake up thinking about it you're going to sleep thinking about it and it becomes so tiresome and draining but you can't stop because you know you're then creating a business and you know you've got people working for you then so you need to keep going and what else can you do but it's it's not as easy as people think it's so tiresome towards the brain even now it's not the first year two years three years it's enjoyable because you're chasing what you want you start getting that you start opening these doors you start getting a bit of attention your social media starts popping and then you start becoming more unhappy yeah because you're thinking what the fuck it was a chasing like it's such a weird was a did a penny drop moment for you is when you realized how big you were?

40:56No, it didn't drop until like literally maybe a few months ago. I was like, it was just a couple of YouTubers or whoever, we met them and I'd never met them before, but they knew who I was. Again, like this isn't like an ego thing. I'm not saying they knew who I was. And they were like, no, like we used to watch the podcast and it was the only the point where I went back to look at the views that the podcast would get back then. And there were some with like 4 million views or like crazy numbers. And you know how much 4 million views makes on a podcast. Especially back then. And that was when it dropped, was when it was like, oh, like this was actually a bit of a, in its own niche, a bit of a thing.

41:42And it's only really then that you realize that when people start being sort of respectful in your own industry or they'll say stuff to your face. because you know there was a point we went we got to when we were with like will any and stephen tries and these guys where we had the group and like we went to a show and it was like the lines of teenage girls lining up to like have their picture with us with their boyfriends and the boyfriend would get a picture and he'd be like i love the podcast and then the girlfriend would get the picture and be like i love you on this with the with the two teenage guys and it would just be like what where did this come from do you know what i mean that that felt big but when you're in it you know you're just experiencing it as like you know it's your experience and you kind of feels natural do you know what i mean do you think you can discredit yourself sometimes and not realize what you actually brought to the table because it was your show just as much as brian's you know like you've done the exact same like i said it was a fine balance of like finding that chemistry of knowing when to say when to jump in and that's a not even having a one-on-one conversation you see so many people jumping and jumping and right and never mind having two people there but sometimes when i listen to you speak i don't feel as if you realize how big you actually were and what you actually brought to the table maybe i think maybe you're right mainly how can I put it?

43:02It's kind of a want not to acknowledge maybe what my contribution was. It's not so much that I think of myself as small, but I don't know how to be big yet. Does that make sense? I don't know how to handle that. And I'm not sure that it sits a little bit unnaturally, if that makes sense. Also, because the first thing that a lot of people put in the comments, which kind of irks me, is like, Oh, this guy is arrogant, or this guy is just because of the way I carry myself and the way I speak. Then if you start saying, Oh, I'm really good, then people go, Oh, see, he's arrogant. And those kinds of things bother me.

43:45And you probably have a similar thing where it's like, you know, you seem to really care about a community of people who watch your podcast. Like you said, a thousand people or a thousand subs felt good because you had a community. Yeah. But then all these other people, my biggest thing, because I was thinking about what we talk about and I was trying to work out like what we might say. My biggest thing is like understanding. I really, we don't really have that much understanding online at the moment of each other. and even with you like i didn't know what i was going to walk into a room of i didn't know if i walk into the room and i admit to being a bit nervous about it because i didn't know if it would be like i don't know you know you've had some people on where they say things that i don't agree with or whatever or whether you'd be like adversarial in some way even though that's not your way yeah and that was an unusual it's such a nerve-wracking experience when you go to a podcast because you don't know what you're going to venture.

44:42My job is to understand that person and how - I respect that. And how they see life because we're all raised in different areas. We've all got different levels of abuse, trauma, money. We're all different. Yeah. Interviewed guys from the IRA, the UDA. And they say if they grew up a mile down the road, they'd have been fighting for another cause. Right. So my job is just to understand that person. What I do in life might be wrong. What you do might be right. I should be doing that. Maybe I should be Christian. Maybe I should be Muslim. Maybe I should be whoever. But for me it's just to stay open minded To it all and I think that's what keeps you in good stead I think that's what makes it a level Playing field for everyone you know Do you think it is a level playing field though?

45:19I don't think it is but it's to try and make it a level Playing field because we all want to be liked I don't give a fuck who we are we all want to be He's done a good show because we can get You've got thousands of comments One negative comment is the one comment you'll stick on Always and that's the hard part Because we're always trying to do The right thing but then how can we create a business because it's controversial itself. So it's like a contradiction all the time. It's a constant battle of trying to do the right thing, but that's not going to get anywhere. But we can say this and we can get a little bite here.

45:48And it's a fucked up world. Yeah. Media, this is a fucked up environment. It's very snaky. It's very cliquey. But we've always kind of just stayed in a lane and kind of just flew straight. Sometimes we'll take a little dip, but sometimes your views will go down one month and I think nobody loves me anymore. 100%. You sit there thinking the views have gone down two months in a row, how do we reignite that? Or how do I shift completely? I remember we had a long time where we didn't really do a podcast because we were doing podcasts and they weren't doing the same views as what we did at the time that was true news.

46:23And true news was just easy. It was fish in a barrel. It was go and find someone on YouTube who's got a big ego and give him some justice or whatever you want to call it. And I used to hate doing that because Because it brought out the worst side in me. And I'm not even sure it felt like me. I would actually, I'll take responsibility for what I said, every word of it. But it meant I would almost like separate and go, right, I'm about to do two hours of relentlessly dogging on other people. Let's do it. And we just do it. And then they go away and edit it and it will come out. And people will be like, oh, that was mean.

47:01Or they might be like, oh, that was really good. This YouTuber got their moat, you know. And a few people would like message you and go, why were you, why did you do that? Like, why do you say that about me? And that would always like, it would upset me quite a lot. That's where we sell ourself. That's where we sell ourself short because we're not fulfilling our true potential because we can get views with just being us. Right. But that's when the views get to our mind. Right. Because I used to watch those guys doing it and I used to watch the views it got and the responses. Huge. And I thought, did I go down that route?

47:30There's many. I don't think you realise how many times I actually drove up the group and I thought these guys are fucking killing it and it does get you down because you're thinking I know I can get there, how do I get there but I didn't want to do that because I knew it's so much tiring drama and when I was going through all that podcast I thought this is so tiresome, it takes the enjoyment away because then we're then just concentrating on viewers because we know the money that can be made and then when that drops you then sell yourself and think fuck it I'm just gonna you just go all out and then what happens is then you've got a mixture of people who hate and love because you get the negative people who love that and that's a negative state to be honest a negative vibration instead of having just great interviews whether you like it or not I'm not ass people move on but the hate stays because it's the damage it does because I've spoke about friends on podcasts nothing bad and they've messaged you forgot yourself you cunt and I'll think have I forgot myself like it gets my mind running yeah and i think have i forgot myself maybe maybe they're right and i never even says anything bad but it's just because i may be talking about past experiences making changes and having to cut people off and people go don't forget who the fuck you were and you think okay but that that in itself is interesting because like people i find it online people they want obviously to interpret you they almost need to put you in a bit of a category a box and you call it but it sounds so cliche but what i mean by that is they want you to conform to the idea that they have of you and if you want to try and leave that idea or change that the energy that you need to exert to try to get the velocity to leave that it's quite a lot of energy and i've witnessed that quite a few times now with a lot of different you know when you've been around in the industry for long enough you see a lot of people trying to change perception of themselves or something bad happens and then they need to kind of right that wrong or whatever.

49:29And there are many different ways to do it, but it's, it's a super like humbling experience to basically realize that your audience do like you. And I'm sure there are lots of audiences that like everyone, but it's a lot of psychology and there's a lot of like very fickle psychology that means that one day you could be absolutely the best. And the next day you could literally be like enemy number one and no one wants to associate and i've kind of experienced that in leaving true geordie and how it kind of witnessing how isolated probably we were from the rest of youtube because we relentlessly like critiqued what it was that they'd done and that was in itself like a bit of a lesson but it's very hard to then go in public and say to those people like oh did i did i upset you did i did we do go too far because there's not always the moment to like right every wrong that you've done you know what i mean but it's when the pressure comes on sometimes we know yourself not many people want you to be successful right but even the people who watch you still probably struggle with other people doing better than them so it's difficult it's such a thin line of insanity and being sane because you push the boundaries and you you do become psychotic in your craft because you're thinking views you're thinking everything's competition and it doesn't matter what way you start off you might start off with a clean hat but then it just becomes like competition because there's so much out there now and it's who can get the most clicks who can get the most views but it's a fucking thin line but see when you get past the million subs yeah that was the the logan paul thing yeah how was that experience i mean really when do you know what it is it's a little bit bittersweet when you go past a million because first of all it didn't feel like it was my million it was obviously his million i was witnessing that million but what was interesting was you because it came from logan you start to go how many people have subbed because they think we're going to see more logan and how many people have subbed because they think we're going to bring someone else to their knees and you feel like people obviously a subscriber is kind of subscribing for the potential of what you're going to do next.

51:40And so I remember we treat it as a big moment, but then immediately after that, it was like, okay, now we've got to go out and serve the meals. It's a bit like working in a restaurant. That has all to do with content and clickbait and fucking thumbnails and titles. There's so much to try to promote a good video. But tell that to an agency. Yeah. What about the boxing thing with KSI and Rogan? He was the commentator, was he not, Brian? It was Brian - I was like the host and then Brian was the commentator. And - That's a big gig. That was a massive gig. And I remember at the time thinking like, oh, this feels big right now.

52:20And we didn't maybe re - maybe because we'd done a few other live streams, we had a lot of people watching, it didn't feel all that intimidating. But it felt like a really fun - it was just fun. I remember just being - we were just drinking. We were literally drinking and just commentating. And these people just bringing us more drinks and going, keep commentating." And it was like, okay, we did. And you can kind of hear it. But Brian, he nailed it, I thought then. Or at least he did a very good job. And in between, we did the hosting. I did the hosting and it was like sort of, you know, there.

52:51But it's unusual to witness these big machines that are moving for KSI and Logan, because to an extent you see their separation from reality and you see their coping mechanisms or their kind of buffer between reality of what a real person deals with, bills and those things, and them just needing to be ready to perform at any time. And it was just really interesting to sort of be part of that. Do you see the difference? Because you look at superstars, and they have become superstars. They have become, even Jake Paul, they're becoming the biggest names on the planet. But with that comes pressure.

53:28You look at your Justin Bieber's, your Michael Jackson's, your Whitney Houston's. you look at the it's not real idolizing somebody isn't real but it's become so damaging and I'm a fucking I'm a very small fish to these people but you already feel it when people look at you and stuff I think what the fuck is he looking at he thinks it's something it says is he like me does he not like me like your paranoia starts fucking with you yeah but did you see the change from like Brian to these people because of the levels of it they're kind of reality different yeah I mean the thing for me was like When I was a kid, I was really obsessed with Greek myths.

54:03And I kind of look at, you know, you could talk archetypes or whatever until the cows come home. That has just been recreated on YouTube from my perspective. We've just recreated all those characters. You see the like, you know, the god of communication or the god of war or all these things. and how basically you fit into those same stories and kind of fulfill them almost. And that's partly why it is such effort to go from one story that people have sort of cast for you and shift to being Neptune or whoever you want to be. Because people, in their minds, we've all got this pattern recognition.

54:48Oh, that guy is the comedian, therefore he'll do this. That guy's the podcaster, he's on it, still do this. and that we're basically just recreating Greek myths on YouTube for slightly more triviality and unusually we haven't, I don't know if we've quite worked out why we're telling the stories sometimes, I think we just tell, a lot of people are just telling stories for the sake of telling stories and even that in itself is like, is actually a Greek myth, so it's interesting to look, like if you go back and look at the Greeks and the Romans and all these gods that they created whether you believe in them or not, it's irrelevant.

55:25Same with the Egyptians. It doesn't matter if you believe in them. The stories have presence and meaning in the modern world. Because you've seen them. I love Stoicism. I love the meanings behind it. And we're all kind of our own gods. And as cheesy as that shit is, we've all got the belief in reality to be who we want to be, but we just don't tap into it enough. See, what did you think of David Icke? Oh, that's a good question. Um, because I know you've done the podcast, but then done a... So we did two with Ike. Yeah. And then we did a follow up because a load of sponsors has sort of gone, did you just get a guy who was anti, uh, well, whichever perspective you were, he was anti it.

56:08And a load of people, a load of people messaged because they, at the time, believed that the language that he used was anti-Semitic, which you know i i can kind of i can buy into that i can understand that yeah um and i didn't realize that and i think sometimes as a podcaster in fact a majority is the time in the podcast as being a podcaster you will not realize until you've kind of explored with that person and had the experience of them in real life where you're going you know like louis through stuck around with jimmy savile for a good amount of time didn't out him as a pedophile do you know what I mean?

56:43But he probably had an inkling. And it's kind of similar as a podcast host, you're sort of exploring what you can and can't get. And I was very cynical of David because Brian was very pro-David. And so my job was almost to be the antithesis of that, right? He's very disarming in real life and he's actually very lovely. Yeah, he's a very smart. Yeah, he's a very pleasant guy. He's family on these as well. Yeah, right. And they all run that business together, I think. Iconic. Yeah, he is. And, you know, I remember how he came up, or the story that you get told about how he came up, is when he went on Terry Wogan and Wogan laughed at him.

57:25But that podcast had quite a big impact, I remember. It did millions of views, as do most David-like podcasts, by the way, now. Then, yeah. It was massive. It was big. And I think we maybe didn't realize the influence it had. It definitely influenced thumbnails. People ripped off that thumbnail that we did for him a lot. Brian did. I didn't do it. And it's funny because I take conspiracy, I know he's not a conspiracy theorist, as almost like the Greek gods and allegorical sometimes. Because in my life I can't prove that 9-11 was an inside job or that whoever runs the media or whoever runs the oil or whatever.

58:13and so I was like I was slightly pushing him

58:21And I guess part of me is working out whether he's David Eich or David Copperfield. That's my suggestion. And I don't, I am not sure right now whether I know. And my logic is David listened to trends and listened to, he went to, you know, he'd listened to COP or whatever political gathering. and he consumed voraciously all of these papers that, you know, the Global Forum for Health or whatever was putting out. And I would diagnose him with my pigeon psychology with some, he's someone on the spectrum. And if you interact with him, you can see that because he's, you know, he comes across in that way.

59:06And that's not, I'm not, I'm not saying that in an disparaging way. and he puts these things together and in his for want of a better word like adhd mind it all links together right because that's what i think that's what adhd does to you some people are very good at pattern recognition and they see how it all slots together doesn't make you crazy back in the 80s you were crazy but now you're just neurodivergent right normal but what scares me is then when I see the things that David said on the podcast, I don't know, six years ago, seven years ago, five years, however long, kind of coming true.

59:44And you're a bit like, hmm, that's weird, isn't it? Like David was like, you know, the few things, and I'm not saying it's true. Universal basic income. David was one of the early people to go, there will be a point where we get where they will ask that you don't earn a wage anymore and you'll just be put onto a universal basic income and computers will do a lot of stuff for you, blah, blah, blah. What's the main conversation in the media right now? Where, you know, AI 2027 is that big paper, you know, the website where it's like it maps out. Yeah. We can talk about that if you want. And all of it is about you won't work anymore.

1:00:23You'll have a universal basic income. The money will come from a central place. They'll decide who gets what money. all the things that David points out. That's pretty interesting, no? That's interesting. There's some predictions that he's made that's not came true, but that's okay as well. We do make mistakes. Alex Jones makes mistakes. Alex Jones predicted 9-11 before it happened. Sure. But when you actually listen to him about the facial recognition, the taking away, we're having digital currency and everybody getting microchipped. It is interesting, but unless I see it with my own eyes, I've still got to stay open-minded.

1:00:58When you say see it with your own eyes, by the time you're seeing it with your own eyes, is it not too late? Yeah, it is. But when people, no matter who it is, I've got to question their agenda, question their belief, how they've been raised. Like the guy we had on there says it was a UFO and he's seen that. Sure. It could be true. I've interviewed people in the mental hospital who hear voices, who see things. I had a witch on just a couple of weeks ago who says she was at a sacrifice and people were eating bodies. I believe She says that? Yeah, she says it But so, do you know If I'd have been at a sacrifice And I'd seen people eating bodies With all due respect To your podcast And the podcast that I was on Would I go to a podcast And talk about that?

1:01:40Or would I? But you say that against every guest But we're living in a day and age Where people just speak freely now That's true Because other people see it And other people watch movies And other people Everybody's in their own reality People say you'll never get that guest I've had some of the biggest gangsters on the planet on you have, you really have and people say you'll never get him real gangsters wouldn't speak out but they do, I've interviewed Larry Mazza he killed over 20 people his best friend was the Grim Reaper he killed over 200 people people just love talking now and it's therapy but I just I don't believe everything everybody says I see the world from my own views, I don't force them upon people but my views change from now it was five years yeah a minute a minute so your views change something i never believed in that but i believe that now there was a day i believe in taking drugs and drinking was normal gambling and now i look at it and think what the fuck was i doing so everything changes somebody can come into your life and have that light bulb moment go do you know what that makes sense maybe i should be believing in that but for me it's stay open-minded to all i don't want to be guided i don't want to be misguided but just stay present and what people are saying which is interesting It's key, you know, because...

1:02:52I'll have people want to say the Earth is flat, the Earth is round. Who the fuck am I to judge? I've never been out of the universe to see it. So I understand that. I mean, obviously, to some extent, you have a responsibility to like... And you do, you challenge it, right? And you kind of ask the difficult questions, or you kind of ask a question that might help them to explore it in themselves. When we get into the state of where the world is now, I struggle to see how we... kind of influenced the route we're on. And when I grew up, and you grew up as a similar generation to me, we were told, like, you know, there were posts of Che Guevara everywhere.

1:03:31It was like, this guy was a freed... He was the poster to have. Every girl had a pin badge of him, and every boy had like... Do you remember when he freed Cuba? And it was like, you could be that if you want to. Tony Blair was like meant to be that for a bunch of Labour guys, do you know what I mean? I don't know if that figure really exists anymore. And I think that is kind of like... Tommy Robinson ain't Shea Guevara, and that's not a dig, but you're not Shea Guevara. Do you know what I mean? I'm trying to work out if that person is gone. I don't know if that figure... You know, Donald Trump ain't Shea Guevara, nor is Joe Biden.

1:04:12I don't think any of them exists though. If you look at Nelson Mandela, he killed women and children. Right. but he's a hero. I think it's... But every freedom fighter is someone else's terrorist. And I get that. But my wife's from Kosovo. Yeah, I think the media, though, build people up. Now we've got social media, so there's no such thing as a celebrity anymore. I remember when I used to see footballers who I loved. I think, fucking hell, this is amazing. Now you see, I don't know if it's caused industry I'm in now, but you see people and it doesn't have that sort of glitz anymore. I think everybody, you can get someone doing a TikTok video that could become the most famous part.

1:04:46Look at the final boss. He's all over the fucking universe now. And it's just someone dancing with a shady haircut. But I just think everybody's got an element of bad. If you look at Hitler, if you actually look at his stories and some of his speeches, a lot of people are now changing their perspective on Hitler. So what he was about. What do you... So this is a great... It's an interesting conversation to me, right?

1:05:10How many people do you think outside of the right are reassessing their views on Hitler? Because, well, that's just, that's my question. Yeah. How many people outside of that forum are going, might be the guy at a few points. Yeah, I don't think any, I think once you've kind of chosen your side, I think sometimes you can maybe gravitate, but I think people are just so caught up in their own agenda, they believe what they're right. What do you think is changing people's view then? Because you must have interviewed someone. I think social media. I think certain videos, you don't even know if it's AI.

1:05:43You've got a speech of Hitler saying, I just want to be free. He's trying to sign the peace agreement with Poland five times. And then some people were saying that, I mean, never killed six million Jews, but who are you to judge? What if we did? That's the way I look at it as well. But that kind of feeds into this idea of it doesn't really matter if it happened or not. It's how it impacts your life. Yeah, but people can rewrite history. We've changed the Bible. We've changed the scriptures. We've changed books. Every book has changed. Yeah, World War I, World War II. that i think the vaticans get tunnels 50 mile longer whatever it is with all these scriptures and things from the past there is blueprints of how life should be lived yeah i believe divide and conquer is cheesy as it is it's so true we've got religions we've got borders we've got race we've got money status everything's divide we're all the same but i just look at things and how people can't people can change their mindset because of one video and we're living in a day and age where people want to feel part of a trend if you've not got a ukraine flag you've got a Palestine, or you've got Israel, you've got Russia.

1:06:45Who's right? You know, there's arguments for both sides. I just don't want to get involved in it. I don't promote any of it because all war is bad. It's not the people who are fighting the wars, it's the people who are telling them to fight it. That's what concerns me. It's the people who fund both sides. So what worries me, I guess, but that even in itself then is just a separated level of storytelling. Yeah. And the... To an extent, I feel similar to you, and I always felt very similar as a podcaster, like, where does my responsibility lie is to let people tell their story and essentially, you know, for want of a better phrase, like, feed the people the rope and see if they hang themselves.

1:07:24I'm not advocating suicide when I say that, but I mean, like, see what they do with it, essentially. But then I know that there are, like, you know, my wife is from Kosovo. I would never have had the insight into Kosovo if I hadn't have married her and gone to the place myself and looked at what went on. But I get messages every day from, you know, Serbians telling me that I'm wrong or... I've not really said that much online about it. I basically, you know, take it... Obviously, I married a Kosovan, so I must have some horse in the race or whatever you want to call it. Not her, but you know. But we get, I get abused every day online from just, you know, having half-Gossovan children.

1:08:14But I think I know roughly there where the good guy is. Do you know what I mean? It's the ones that weren't committing the genocide. Do you know what I mean? And like you say, every war is bad. But then, do you like Adam? You must like Adam Curtis. Love Adam. Very open-minded to all. He made a three minute short. That video changed my perspective on anything I see in modern media. And it was about the strategies of the Russian government in funding political movements in Russia. and how Putin 10 years ago had started to fund people on the left and the right. So that essentially you could create dissension within your own society that meant that you had to step in and say, well, look at all these LGBT lot guys on the right.

1:09:06I'm stopping those guys. But they go to the guys on the right and go and goes on to the guys on the left and go, we've stopped the Nazis, guys. Like, these LGBT people should be thanking us. And no one knew where Putin sat because they couldn't work out. Like, what's this guy's agenda? But it kept him in the power. It kept him as the kingmaker, if you want to call it that. Soul control. But the worrying thing is he employed a guy who made avant-garde movies and avant-garde theater to manage his media relations. And the whole purpose of his, as far as I know, kind of meddling was purely to confuse people and purely to muddy the water of, well, who is right?

1:10:03Who is wrong? You know, morally, are you right? But you're Muslim, so can you be right? But you're Christian, so can you be right if you support this guy because he killed him and they did that? But you and I both know there is also a subjective element to all of this. like, but Putin or whoever now, there is a big part of our society who is starting to say things like, is death wrong? Is, you know, I see all these AI gurus and they go, maybe it wouldn't be such a bad thing if the human race was wiped out. I'm like, sorry, what? Like, what are you talking about? It's the art of war, it's the great confusion.

1:10:44And the thing is, if like, I love steak, I love chicken but I guarantee if I went to a slaughterhouse it would change my perspective if you went to Kosovo if you went to Palestine you would think what's going on but then other people in Israel if you went there at a certain time you'd think what's going on any bloodshed is wrong and that's the thing we get to it's just because maybe our wife can change our perspective our brother or we can meet a homeless man who tells me certain different Britain's invaded over 90 % of the world we were the most ruthless I love Scotland I'm Scottish I love England I love the British I love the people here But We've done a lot of wrong And yet A lot We've done in Iraq In Afghanistan In America But imagine what these people Are saying about us So we think we're in the right Because of a certain narrative That we see on the media Twin Towers Let's go and Bomb these people And they've killed our own I think these As human beings Are easily Manipulated And that's where we're going wrong Instead of standing up and saying There shouldn't be wars There shouldn't be destruction In a perfect world It's all love there's an understanding of each other we help our brothers and sisters but we don't everything's backwards for the day we're born and then we've got the schooling system we've got vaccines we've got so much you can go down the rabbit hole of everything is static we're all vibrational beings we all understand we can be telepathic when you know somebody's gone on the phone we can actually tune into the brain and understand when somebody we can actually communicate but we just don't do it enough because of everything that we went through so for me it's i don't have the answers to it because it's such a complex fucking thing to i wish i had everybody could be peaceful but we don't but when you look at ukraine you see people with ukraine flags and russian flags and argue like people giving you shit because your wife's from kosovo but your wife and what her family's been through in my school um all the kosovoans came with all the refugees and i'm all for refugees because they want a better home women and children by all means fucking support them but obviously it's changed now you've got young men no wives no children but in my school that we used to get told the stories of what was going on in Kosovo and it's fucking heartbreaking of what they went through what 20, 30 years ago 30 years ago it's 30 years now yeah there'll be 30 years when I was at secondary school and you know what they were broken my big friend he owns Pulp actually it's a great restaurant and I still love it but they used to tell us the stories what they went through what their families went through getting broken up from their mums and their dad like it's fucking barbaric Dragging your best friend.

1:13:12There's someone who's, it's not my story to tell, but seeing your best friend be shot right in front of you, that'll have a big impact on which side your heart goes to. Do you know what I mean? And nothing will change that. Well, because viscerally your brain has just experienced something that I don't know how to reverse that. Do you know what I mean? And that, I think, like you said, all war is wrong. That's a great place to start. But when the government starts saying that, and then they start saying, the war is wrong, but this one's necessary. You know, like Iraq was necessary, apparently.

1:13:50You know, we all knew it wasn't. Everyone knew at the time it wasn't. Do you know what I mean? It leaves me with this sense that I'm, you know, whose podcast was it? It was someone's podcast the other day, and there was a woman who was basically saying that, you know, different ages end. So, you know, in the Christian or kind of Abrahamic religions, there's like 2000 years is their cycle. But in somewhere far away is 26 ,000 years. And there's another cycle there that's coming to an end. And all of these stories will begin to just disintegrate and we'll see the changing of an age what how do i explain that to my kids you know what i mean like what what what do you use to orient yourself when those things no longer they're you know your compass that you've got and your north and south are just being completely you're told well it doesn't matter if you go north or south anymore if you go north you die if you go south you die well what use is a map then you know that's like quite i think that's quite scary to a lot of people yeah because we never know what's around the corner like people moved to dubai and then there was bombs just a hundred mile away in iran so you're never safe with anything you don't know what these sort of leaders and dictators want in life but if they want something they can easily manipulate them like lockdown was prime example how fooled we were yeah the prime minister's shouting do this Lock in, protect yourself While they're fucking partying and shagging each other On Christmas, you know, so I don't trust any of them I hope someone proves me wrong And becomes a good leader And wants the best for these people, a thriving nation All around the world Does that exist?

1:15:37It's a genuine question Look at Africa I've been to a couple of places in Africa And it's fucking stunning But it's the most deprived, heartbreaking Third world countries in the world Why if we get kids starving? and why is two-thirds of the world not get clean water like that is impossible but yet we give these charities billions and billions of pounds and fuck all gets done it's all greed it's all power it's all money money's poison men's soul and that's the bottom line of it that's what all comes down now what is it what is for money that's all what is greed what is they need wars to keep the world going around for gold and oil and fucking weapons and all that bullshit but it's all greed that's poisoned us it's all made us fucking soft we've got we're full of drink we're full of drugs we're full of porn we're chasing a fake illusion and it's breaking us down and we spoke earlier for me it's the family life if you've got a nice partner if you've got kids you work at that nothing breaks you because you've made a bond with your partner i've never found that because i always end relationships i always it's like i know what i want but it's like a contradiction i'm saying but for me that's the way i see and i will get that life but what if you find partner who has this, you're basically looking for a partner who looks for the same thing now?

1:16:48I think it makes sense because people come into my life and I'm talking about fluoride-free fucking toothpaste and waters and this. It's hard for people who's lived in a bubble. And it's because they repeat, like my daughter doesn't have sleepovers. Right. And she fucking hates me for it. She still moans and she's 15. But I've just interviewed enough people to realise there's enough creeps on this planet. Yeah, you should talk to my wife. She's the same. Yeah. She's literally like, our kids are never sleeping over. I'm overprotective. I don't know who the father is. I don't know what the cousins are like the next door neighbors the postman you've fucking had people on when they were talking about their ex-partners put cameras in their house and i'm yeah i'm going into people's house and i'm fucking looking for cameras yeah right like i'm so paranoid family mate yeah yeah welcome you guys are too obvious but it's that's just the way the world is and you've got to be suspicious you've got to be skeptical because nobody's to be trusted yeah and that's a sad state of affairs because there's so many beautiful people on the planet there's so many beautiful for people who do great work.

1:17:44You won't hear about it though because it doesn't sell. Like I say, when I walk along London, I don't see racism. I don't see hate. I don't see theft. I go on X and the fucking whole London's bad. You'd think that London was burning down according to Twitter and some politicians. I find it bizarre when they talk about London because I'm like, I'm watching the video of whatever someone says is happening in London. I'm like, oh, I'm literally like two minutes from there. And no, nothing seems to be happening like that. And it's really weird. The area we live is, you know, there's a lot of different backgrounds.

1:18:20And what's great is like, if you live in that area, you know what it's really like. But if you don't, and you're doing your political tour and you're there for 10 minutes, then you'll hear about, you know, the time when this kid was stabbed or whatever it is you want to say. And I just like, that's, I guess, my frustration. Like I, to an extent, you know, you had someone from UKIP before. Actually, I don't know what UKIP stands for anymore. I haven't really looked into it. They're very right. Right. But I don't know what, I actually don't know what that means anymore. I think they don't want illegal immigration.

1:18:55They believe in Christianity. They believe in the British culture. What does... So, okay, you're a perfect person to talk about this with, right?

1:19:07Obviously, I've married someone who's an immigrant of sorts. She was a refugee, so that's a slightly different immigrant to other people. And she didn't come across in a boat. And she was a girl at the time, so it wasn't as if she traveled alone. That is the love of my life. That's the person I'm always... I married her, I love her, I'm exploring my religious ideas, because of all these things. Those life-changing decisions that I've made based on the woman that I met, who I'd never have met if it wasn't for immigration. On the other hand, I also understand that Japan is a beautiful culture that's very self-contained.

1:19:49And sometimes I think like, what if Britain was more self-contained and we did lean into what made us good? But I realize my idea of Britain ain't the same idea as some right wing maybe people's idea of Britain. My idea of Britain is NHS, BBC, not BBC the way it currently is, but like, you know, when the BBC came around, like what that meant. That's my idea of it. But when people talk about Britain, I don't know. Do you know what I'm getting at here? Like, just saying Britain, what the fuck does that mean? I think it's lost. I think they are most concerned of not immigrants, but illegal immigrants.

1:20:28So what, can we just define what illegal immigration is? So it's someone who's not got a passport, any papers, because UK is now the second most, it's the rape capital, second in the world. It's went from 8 ,000 rapes to 76 ,000 rapes. Is that 76 ,000 rapes as in reported or... Reported, not unreported. So what I'm also wondering is, do we now live in an age where women, I'm assuming a majority of those would be women, because it's a statistic, just feel more empowered to now go to an institute and speak about that. I'm not saying that, you know, there aren't more rapes. I don't know. I don't have any reference to that.

1:21:06But do we, are we not now, is that not just a thing? Like, now you maybe might trust that process a bit more as before. If you went and go and reported a rape, the likelihood might have been that you would have, oh, wow. Are you sure that might be? Yeah, but I think they're saying it's only been a fight. It's only, this is the last five years. Okay. And they're saying with illegal immigration, with people not coming here, and the majority of, I think it's in Sweden, with 60 % of the rates were from illegal immigrants. And because nobody has the records of them, it's harder to get convictions or send them back.

1:21:37So we've got an island now, and their concern is because there's millions now. And if people are willing to work and go to university and provide, like when I travel the world, I've got my passport, I'm spending money, I'm not making trouble. But there's just a concern on the streets of the migrant hotels of young working men who are fit to cause havoc. They've got knives, they're killing people. Not everyone, we can't tar everyone. but there's no women there's no children there's no that coming from would you as I'm going to stop using my wife as an example because I don't want to bring her into this it's extremely difficult to bring any women and children across a whole continent to get to a place the smart thing to do is to send the men first to work out if that is a good I'm not making a counter argument but I am I guess I am because I understand the people To an extent, I understand why people are angry about it.

1:22:33I don't agree with the... I guess I get the conclusions. I just don't get the logic of then how we deal with it, I guess is what I would say. Because I think they're saying they're coming through over 10 other countries to get here. And it's obviously the free health. Because people here are dangerous. People in Britain are dangerous. Believe me. Yeah, do you know what I'm saying? You can't be blaming everyone. I've got friends from all walks of life. But it's just because of it's free health care, it's free money, it's free food, hotels. and they're not willing to work. Right. So when they go on the streets, a lot of people are protesting of safer streets, protect your kids and a lot of people are getting called for writing races.

1:23:08Like I say, I've got a daughter so I understand of the protection. Same. I don't really see it on the streets myself but if I was to go to a protest, maybe it would be different. I try and stay back from it all because I don't really understand it and like I say, there's good people everywhere but I just think there is a lot of unrest here in the UK. You can feel it. Yeah. You know when people talk about like the bad things that happen in London the thing that I feel the most is actually just tension I don't obviously there are thieves everywhere but like I see I just see a lot of tension in London so like a very tense place right now well Barcelona there's pockets if I went Northern Ireland Belfast there was always a I love the Irish people but there was always like a tension there I don't know if it was tough in the past but it's just a weird society for me it's just to try and be better than you were try and stay in your own lane.

1:23:58Don't upset anybody, but it's difficult because we all want to feel part of something. But Naples has that, right? As in the reputation of a city, kind of similar to Liverpool in a sense, a port full of like cheeky people who don't really think they're Italian, but they're Italian kind of thing because they're part of a port. And when I went to Naples, for football reasons, everyone went, Ooh, careful mate, that's dangerous people there. You get your pockets picked and stuff. Cameraman from Goa and I were out till 3am, drinking, party and having a great time with these people. And we were wandering around with really expensive cameras.

1:24:40We wandered around night after night with really expensive cameras. Not once did we have any trouble, not once did anything bad. If you went to a restaurant for 10 times and it was a great food, you went and got shit time one time, you wouldn't go back, you'd think, I hate that. And it's experiences that makes you who you are and makes you feel something because our memories are so strong. Like if we go through a bit of trauma, there'll be a song that we kind of remember. And every time we hear that song, it will take us back to that sort of period of trauma. But so what about like, so I see a lot of very visceral videos on Twitter of, I mean, for want of a better word, Muslims.

1:25:15That's how a video is presented. Just this is a video of a Muslim doing something. And I think, and they tend to come from a very specific source. And I think if you really do care about accuracy and you really do... I agree, there are some Muslim people and some Christian people and some Jewish people and some Hindu people who do awful things. But if you really care about accuracy, would you use these terms in such broad ways? And I don't think if you really cared about unity as a country, not you, but you know, the royal you, you would talk, you would speak about people like that, or that you'd upload these videos and then look for an outcome of anger or an outcome of vitriol or an outcome of don't let this person come here.

1:26:12Yeah. The guy I had on before, but he was saying it's a Christian country. Right. But he was saying when you go to the Middle East, they don't have chapels, they don't have churches. Yeah. So why should there be mosques here as well? First of all, okay, but that speaks to my idea of what I just said, right? I mean, kind of what you said about invading 90 % of the world. If there's a country you invade 90 % of the world, you're also kind of inviting 90 % of the world to come to where you are. Right, yeah. Listen, that's a seesaw. Yeah, and to an extent, I think the seesaw is kind of going the other way at the moment.

1:26:51And maybe, you know, we have to work out how to be comfortable with that or work out how to deal with that. But I think everybody's ego who's the best, there's thousands of gods, there's thousands of religions. But I think... That's a bit of a... So with all due respect, that's a little bit of a cop-out from some people's perspective. Yeah, but I think the Britons are the most vulnerable. Because I think with the damage that they have done for thousands and thousands of years, i think the seesaw is eventually coming back round no i agree could be people being sent here for that purpose again i don't know i don't have all the facts maybe you're right yeah but britain have done a lot of fucking damage and these people in these countries don't forget you think they're going to forget that you've killed their mom or their dad or their kids absolutely not you know what i'm saying so they're who says it's not some sort of plan to get revenge So I, that would be a very big undertaking and a very big, almost conspiracy level to build an army in Britain's hotels of fighting age men.

1:27:52Some people say it, but it's real. Yeah, but the excuse of some people say it or the excuse of some people believe it. Is it raining outside? Tell me if it's raining or not. You know, I don't, I'm not saying there aren't dangerous people who come from any country. I'm also not under the impression they're building an army in our own back garden, but maybe some people believe different and maybe that upsets some people that I think that way. But when someone says to me, there are no chapels in Saudi or there are no chapels in the Middle East. I understand. I kind of get it. Does that make sense?

1:28:36I kind of go, yeah. So are you saying we should like, is therefore the conclusion that we should get rid of all the mosques or is the conclusion we should control the mosques or is the con or the, you know, should we allow because Christians and Jews historically have a well-advertised relationship that will allow the synagogues, but the mosques not so much. Like, that's not, it's not practical to speak of especially three Abrahamic religions in a way as if only one is the preference, because we decided that. Christianity relies on Judaism in the same way as Islam to an extent, and some people I'm sure in your comments, well correct me, relies on Islam - But Jesus is in - Jesus in all the books.

1:29:28They're all Abrahamic. Does that not...

1:29:34So we've got to have a mosque in the same way you've got to have a synagogue, in the same way you've got to have a church. I think it's easy to debate though. Again, it comes back to the debate. But it is if you say the default is Christian, what are those not doing in that building where they don't want us to look? Which, by the way, is also a great analogy of that. I lived with a Muslim guy who went to a mosque in East London, one of the biggest mosques in East London. And he would come home saying some stuff that made me really uncomfortable. And I guess my assumption was, he must have heard this at the mosque.

1:30:11I don't know what to do with him. I don't know what to do with those kind of people. because you can't, I can't fight a dogma war because it's dogma. I go to Dubai every few months. That's why you're so well-tanned. Yeah, it's the best city I've been to. The food's amazing. The people are amazing. The streets are clean. So I always say this in the podcast, we can't blame Muslims for everything. We can't blame Christians for everything. And there's kind of dark stuff in both Bible, Quran. Everywhere, that's the life that we're in. but if Dubai is one of the best cities in the world and it's a Muslim run city then how the fuck are we blaming everybody from the state of the UK you know like I think it's easy to then target oh he's Muslim, if a white guy kills somebody they don't go yeah he's a follower of Jesus I think it's easy to deflect but that's what the media do, it's to divide it make everybody uneasy, keep your vibration low, so it's for me I know great people from all walks of life when I'm treated, Hindu friends and fucking, I've got friends all week when I get into my Muslim friend's house, it's food, it's how hard you take your shoes off of course, but everybody's sweet.

1:31:20I felt very rude. I saw you in your socks before we started doing this. I just realized I've been cycling all day. My socks stink. I don't want to get my feet out on your podcast. But do you, so with that then, to an extent I lament the fall of Jordan Peterson. We had him on the podcast. When we had him on the podcast, it was like talking to a shell of Jordan Peterson. It was like someone doing an impression of Jordan Peterson. Clearly, he didn't rate us. He didn't think we were intellectuals because he just kept explaining things to me. And I was like, yeah, I get that, mate. Can we actually talk about the conversation?

1:31:52Have you had him on? No. You'd be good with him. I read his books and as a messy kid, I was like, oh, this is a really good book. Tidy your room, like, you know, lobsters. It was much more complex than that. It's a really good book. He's got a good book. The thing that stuck with me from what he said was though If you really believe it Like if you really believe in being a good Christian Or you really believe in being a good Muslim Or you really believe in being a good Jew Or whatever religion You wouldn't act like you're acting right now The royal you, not you You would be caring to your neighbours You would be caring to those other people and I don't that's what makes me when someone says we're a Christian country I think well which kind of Christian?

1:32:44because I don't remember Jesus saying close the borders yeah extremists you know I mean who am I to call them that you know I totally get that as well like for me if you're a religious man you should be all about loving no matter who it is love your lie neighbour but they don't they're trying to force it on each other who's right who's wrong but that's ego and I don't, it makes me uncomfortable because I also grew up in, obviously I went to Catholic school and I'm assuming you went to it. Yeah. I've got a big Jesus tattooed on my back. Right. There you go. Okay. Right. Yeah. I'm not religious anymore.

1:33:14I'm just open-minded to it all. I just think it's all f**king, it's great to have a faith, but I think people are just losing their mind with it. Because I see religion as being happy and forgiving your sins and understanding. I don't see he's bad, get rid of the f**king churches, get rid of the mosques. I'm thinking every Muslim person I've ever came across has been fucking sound. Dave Chappelle, great comedian, great Muslim. My idea of a good middle ground of a person, who also doesn't live his life in the middle ground at all. But we went to a private show, a friend of mine got tickets, my wife and I sat front row.

1:33:48It was like, dream come true, go see Dave Chappelle. We walked out and the guys had three tequilas. I turned to my wife, I was like, whatever kind of Muslim that is, that's the one I want to be. It was a joke, obviously, but like the, there are plenty of people in the world who are, they look comfortable. Yeah. And I just, I wanna, I'm trying to gravitate towards those people, but I don't know where they go right now. It should be easy. It should be easy. It should be effortlessly. It should be, this is what I believe in because I believe in all this. This is amazing. It gives me faith. Right.

1:34:22It gives me courage. It gives me strength. That's what I was raised with. Right. But then it's just all hatred, it's all divide, it's just believe this, don't do this, he's bad, Muslims are bad, Christians are bad, Sikhs are bad. It's just, it's so tiresome. It's also, it feels so anti-God, if that makes sense. Like, I don't know if I, I don't know what I believe, is what I'd say right now. I don't know if God exists or not. And that's not sitting on the fence. It's just more like, I'm looking for, I'm not looking for it to be like, give me a moment, like make me, you know, do something. I'm not looking for that.

1:34:57But I don't think God would want us to do a lot of the things we're doing right now. I don't think he would look down and go, good job, guys. Maybe that was the sign? Yeah. A pair of headphones just fell off the camera. I just think somebody has created us. I believe in a higher power. I don't know what people see in the comments, believe in Jesus. And I don't know. I'm confused just as much as the next man. It's no difference from having an imaginary friend You're believing in something that you don't see But some people who do homeless work And become addicts and change They take a Maybe start believing in Christ Like I say the Muslim beliefs and how their family You never see a Muslim's You never see a mum or dad in an old folks home Because they believe in their family They believe in taking care of their elders You're going to an old folks home It's just fucking all white people No kids don't show up like the morals of the family unit is unbelievable i don't think anything either though is it like that's not necessarily a christian ideal to put your folks i don't know in that i don't think it is as far as i know maybe it says it somewhere on the bible maybe it says it just jesus was like get two for one but like i don't know if that's for me religion the more i look at it the more I don't watch I went through a period When I was really trying to convince myself Here's a weird one Right I was really trying to convince myself That I thought Hey I could be Muslim here You know I've married My wife is Muslim My kids We're raising them as Muslim So they are I've got to give this a really good go You know I'm still giving it a go And I went online and went So let's go find a bunch of guys who make videos about Islam and I'll learn about it like that.

1:36:49They're all debates about whether you should be gay or what. Bro, chill out. Like how much can you talk about gay guys in a day? It's weird how much they talk about. The amount of videos that I managed to find about how not to be a Muslim was 10 times the amount of videos that you could find of people going, So if you want to be Muslim, why don't you, you know We were talking about Ramadan earlier You've fasted I don't know if really, like I don't know if I've really Done Ramadan yet, because I've not Prayed on that day, I think that's part of it But I've fasted For whole months, and I found that really Spiritually cleansing And I saw the benefits I'm surprised more people who have podcasts, you know this Don't go, they're not More podcast bros that are like Guys, I'm not Muslim, but I fast during Ramadan because it's good for your body.

1:37:41I'm really surprised there are more people on LinkedIn just telling us how good we should do by fasting for a month. I think people are scared to choose a religion now. I think it's great to have a faith because it's a lonely journey. So if you've got a faith, you're always going to have somebody there. But I just think people are just too scared because too many people have got what to say. Don't become a Christian. Don't become a Muslim. And it's like getting forced upon you. Like you say for yourself, it's probably your kids are Muslim, your wife's Muslim. Should I be a Muslim? but it don't have to be either unless it's the right calling and if it happens so be it there's people who become Muslims turn to Christ there's people who are involved in Christ but go Muslim for me it's just do what you want gravitate taste everything and go do you know what this feels right for me there's people who walk in mosques and go this feels fucking magical but be honest about it like don't you know that's why I guess to an extent I won't go in public until I feel it and say it do you know what I mean and my wife said that she was like it is a sin I think if you're not Muslim to say you are That's like something you shouldn't do And I like This is why we got into Jordan Peterson right Like he said if you really believe it Live it like don't just pay lip service To it actually Look at it and how do you Fulfill what it is to Because if you really want to get into heaven You don't half arse it you don't go I might get there in the end I'll just repent when I die It's not the way it works But at least as far as I know It seems as if you're a little scared of it I think from your wife and your kids you would do anything for them that's the maybe that is your life and i think just maybe what you've went through as well with brian to then maybe people then question it but oh actually so you know what that if anything i found um it maybe i'm not scared of the religion i some of the i'm not scared of muslims but like I'm scared of some of the modern things that come with that, to say that.

1:39:35You know, if I said I was Muslim, I would think, well, does that prejudice someone from UKIP then chatting to me? And there'll be a bunch of people in the comments who are UKIP who'll go, I've got loads of friends who are Muslim, daily basis we talk. Yeah, yeah. but fundamentally what would that mean like because i remember there were some people who said to me they were like you're atheist like you can't become a muslim and it's like do you like then maybe there's an ego element there but then there's also this like maybe it would prejudice your my public life do you know what i mean and i've got to be honest about whether I believe in God or not.

1:40:20And at the moment, I don't feel it there. Does that make sense? But there's still time. And like I say, you never know what's around the corner. If you're raising your kids yet, it could be after this podcast. You just don't know. But just go where your heart goes. Don't give a fuck what anybody says and do it for your family, which is so important. Like I said, people want to be Muslim Christian. I don't care. I'll support you as long as you're not harming anyone as you're not fucking running around and saying, listen, you follow me or else we're not friends. I can fuck off. But be who you want to be.

1:40:45I've got friends in all walks of life. and I think you will I think personally you already know the answers and you already know where you're going to go sometimes I don't even think you're going to feel it sometimes I think it's just having the courage to admit who you've become those yeah like your identity and what you are and I think that's that is a I always my analogy of that is like I learned to play piano for a little while David's in a band what do you play? I would go to the piano and I'd read the music like the basic music and I couldn't play it in the moment. And then I'd go back the next day and I could sort of play it a little bit better.

1:41:22And then I'd go back the next day and my fingers would know a little bit more from muscle memory and kind of like how it works. And I kind of feel the same about like core life lessons are about repetition and are about that being part of habit almost. And I think religion is probably the same where if you look every day and you're thinking about it every day, it will just become a part of your life. and that's how it really influences you. The conscious mind, I think the conscious mind is almost the thing that takes you away from being a true version of your religious self because it's, it just questions things that almost you don't need to question.

1:41:58It's like when you go on the YouTube side of things, the YouTube side is all up here. Like it's all like, you know, go to Speaker's Corner and debate someone. It's like, come on, man, like, do you really think you're going to find the questions? I think you'll actually be surprised in the support that you would get if you choose a religion i think that there's massive support on all walks of life on all sides look what andrew tate done and then he became a Muslim whether it's legit or not i don't know but well that was kind of what caused the big problem with brian was i think my first comment was like i didn't believe him and i don't really know andrew tate so but i've had i've had some homophobia from him in the dms before but i think he called me brian's little bitch called me a fag called me called me a homer i'd like he definitely called me like homophobic slurs called me uh basically he messaged me after we made fun of him on one of the true newses and said i could apologize i don't think i apologized um and all this kind of stuff and i remember like it was before he it was pre the phenomena of andrew tate blow up the blow up and i remember just being like well this is weird it's another person who's upset by something we've said and then to then fast forward all those years and see him like kind of enjoying watching brian's downfall or whatever you want it wasn't really a downfall but like that moment that blip that was quite surreal to see and i guess for him that must have felt i don't know how that felt maybe it was a moment but like that was really weird it felt quite surreal to watch andrew tate like making a message to true geordie and like those two going back and forth that was very doesn't feel very muslim do you know what i mean see when that happened and brian done that on his live what were you thinking then were you what in the moment yeah because you have says many controversial things i'm sure people could clip something up of me maybe show five years ago and think look at that and i think it's how the masses grip it for me i think being apologetic it doesn't do anything any favors you know but with your wife being muslim as well and you can see a little bit of being uncomfortable you try to resolve the situation and i think if you just left after the first comment sure but what are you thinking then going through your mind at that situation did you realize how deep it was uh well no i don't think anyone really realized how deep it was at that point because it was a very like it wasn't really a prominent thing we were doing i think we were streaming at the time and it was like a very nothing game like chelsea genk or something like that it really wasn't a thing it was just to fulfilled Twitch hours, basically.

1:44:31And I think obviously at the time you go, hmm, maybe let's not go with that joke. I know that some people are going to see that and be upset. I think what really cancellation to me fascin - like is I find it fascinating, mainly because maybe I've gone through it a couple of times with Brian by proxy, but also kind of directly just through saying a few things and when you're going through it the unstoppable or the like inevitable feeling that it has sometimes is very you don't feel powerful in any way you feel like powerless to stop it almost because there's all these people who are reveling in you being powerless and they are Or almost, like for me, I did liken it to like a public, it's not a lynching, but like a public execution.

1:45:25And then everyone goes, similar to a public execution, well, that was good. Back to your lives we go. And they sort of, they enjoy it and like applaud it in that moment on Twitter or whatever. And then suddenly you're dead, your head's sitting on the floor and they just all walk off and get back to their lives. and you're kind of left to pick up those pieces because you have kind of been publicly, it's not a John Ronson thing, but like publicly shamed. Yeah, you have. Did you lose sponsors and everything? We lost everything. And it put real pressure on the relationship at that point. How was the relationship before that?

1:46:01Well, there was obviously a point where it was fantastic and Brian and I sort of lived in each other's pockets for quite a long time because we had to almost engineer the level of like... It's like an ant and deck thing, isn't it? You've got to be there 24-7 and understand the next moves. It's all chess. Being entrepreneurs, you've constantly got to be on it. You can't take time off. Yeah, and you're always thinking about it or like you might, you know, you'd always be messaging each other. Ideas. Ideas and things you've seen online or like, hey, I've seen this edit. This could be really cool.

1:46:32All these kind of things. And I think I said this before, but like you've got to do the maintenance on the relationship as well to keep it healthy. And we just weren't really doing that. Like I think I'd had my daughter had been born maybe like a couple of months before that. And you've got to spend time with your family. family is really important but it meant that i'd kind of taken a little step back at that point and i think if brian was struggling with it and he was just he had a lot going on his plate at that time understandably he wasn't quite able to like manage everything at once the same way as i wasn't and some people say that oh lawrence you know i hate him i don't want him on the podcast you can see like stabbed brian in the back or whatever because brian and i have never really like we you know we could probably do a podcast tomorrow and do a very interesting podcast unpicking our own relationship i don't think we're quite in that place to do that but we just we weren't in the place one-on-one to be able to just patch things up and make it make it through mainly because we also had different ways that we would have approached solving that situation and also because we were just publicly being absolutely every day was just relentless for about a month there were like guys who came to my flat and said i'm here to like fight you i'm here to show you what a real muslim is and then i messaged one of them was like oh come outside we can talk for 10 minutes and if you still want to fight me then we can fight and he was like, oh, I didn't think you'd reply.

1:48:14Like, you know, I just was saying it. But to sponsors, it all looks the same. To sponsors, it's just, and especially if Andrew Tate's had his say, it's just a barrage of just get this guy at PokerStars, how can you sponsor this guy? At Gymshark, how can you sponsor this guy? And you're just very vulnerable. You're very like exposed that's a it's just such a unusual feeling you know you're you're watching all your money or the potential that you can have just evaporate it's gone how was your wife with it very supportive how long were you married then see that's a true muslim right you know that's a true christian i forgive he's done bad i forgive not somebody out of linchum yeah do you know what i'm saying and i think like you know there's a reason you marry someone is because they understand, or they try their best to understand you.

1:49:08Just, she was trying to understand where I was at. And it's uncharted territory for anyone. Because the people who have been cancelled, almost by the nature of getting cancelled, don't go out there and go, well, I was cancelled. I best go and publicize this. Like, they're pushed to the fringes of society. And the people at the fringes almost go, come here, you represent the fringes now. And so I saw Brian get pushed towards the people who were not Muslim, towards those people who hate Muslims. And they go, no, you said the right thing, Brian. You're right. They do just want to blow themselves.

1:49:52You're right. And those people like welcome you in because it's like great more amplification for our messaging you've got a side yeah but a lot of people choose a side because they don't have anyone or they have no choice yeah they have no choice and brian and i we were both very isolated at that time and you know i'll admit to not being as brave or forthright because i first of all we i had new kids secondly i felt very exposed and i felt that the way that we chose to handle it between us had left us in a degraded status of our relationship. And I would not say that's wholly on Brian. I take responsibility for the way that I acted towards him in that time as well.

1:50:32I was trying to save what we had and like try and keep it together. But we could have dealt with it better as a team. But I think also because of the trauma of him being cancelled before, again, I can't really speak for him so I can't assume it. What did he get cancelled before? What? The DMs that he... Oh, the doodle show? Yeah. How can I get cancelled for that? Well, I think that was like, even if you don't get cancelled, it's still public humiliation or it's an attempt at cancellation or you see how many people really, things come out in the wash. And I think that brought a lot of that back.

1:51:08It certainly brought it back for me, so I don't understand why I'm bringing it back. So what was that? He was talking to a bud and he was saying you as a adult or the way I like it or some shit. Yeah, like any guy who's probably got an erection, like you start to say some mad shit. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah, whether people creepy or cringe, but I don't see a cancellation in that. But again, it's a public humiliation. How did they actually get over that? I think he just, he had a lot of... I'm sure he got somebody on. I remember watching it. He had Stephen tries. It's a good concept to do.

1:51:38Fuck it, just nail me and get it over with. Yeah. But that was like, what about the video? That's kind of my point. Like he had a bunch, like Logan, even Logan reached out at that time and was like, bro, we've all said some stuff when we're fucking horny. Do you know what I mean? Like if people could see my DMs, I think Mike, who's on Logan's podcast was like, yeah, I've said way worse to some girls. Like fucking, I'm just trying to get myself off. And so I think every guy in the room sort of went, yeah, well, we've all said some mad shit to a woman at some point. Or like we've all said mad shit because we wanted to just.

1:52:09But why would you say that on DMs? I don't. That's a schoolboy, either. But I think that was kind of what felt very, again, it's not really my story to discuss it, but I remember I made an offhand comment at the time where I said, how stupid was that? And it kind of, I saw the devastation in his eyes of like, come on, man, like, I know. Why are you saying that? You don't need to land another blow at this point. and i think we all understood that as a group that we were quite a tight-knit group at that point and um it helped that there were some people who were famous and in the public eye who kind of went yeah i've said some stupid shit but yeah how many was on your team uh freelance like 10 15 people so on the weekend you'd have like cameramen come in editors vision mixers technical guys and it became like an expanded team, but obviously day to day, probably like Brian, the editor, which was Gio at that time.

1:53:08And Gio's now Logan's editor, um, and the camera guy. So, you know, but that's the core. And that's kind of how it had been built to be lightweight or like low touch. How many channels did you have? Um, we had, we had, I mean, Brian had Pain Game. I think he had True Geordie. I think he had, we had XO at one point. We had True Geordie 2, whatever you want to call it so lots of like four did you have any channels i'd set one up but i didn't really why did you not plug that not knowing for maybe a back kind of if anything goes wrong i've got something to fall back on you never really had a backup plans but is that because you were just flying anyway flying brian i think i always struggled i'm i was i've struggled in my life a bit with people pleasing maybe and trying to like you know fulfill our goal and i think i always worried that maybe brian would feel like i was like trying to build my own thing off the back of his momentum and like you said like maybe i don't take the credit for what it is that i contributed and that meant but in retrospect that almost makes it a lot easier then for other people to also take away the credit whereas if i try and take the credit or I publicly just go, yeah, I built that, I did that, then it makes it a lot harder for people to disconnect you from the success you've had or the good influence you've had.

1:54:33And I did, I think I did do a video. I made one brand deal with like, well, like one video was a trip somewhere. And this was like ages ago. And it got like 150 ,000 views. And I remember being like, oh, okay. Like, I didn't see the power that that held. Because I thought, you know, in your hot hand the hot hand fallacy right like you go yeah I'll do that again sometime but maybe I should have built on that that's probably like a but hindsight's always a wonderful thing you never know do you know what I mean like you're always yeah like I'm always looking back and going I wish I'd supported this I've done that so after that then with the comments about the suicide bombers like what happened with the relationship did it just fizzle straight away because I watch your videos still when when you were talking in your interviews it's just your loyalty because you don't want to shit on someone when their world's falling apart i'm the same like i never done any videos on it i don't do videos of people's misery sure you know what i'm saying it's not my but you do think it is that it fucking is i have to be honest you do think about jumping on the bandwagon because you know it's going to create viewers it's just not my style but um how was the relationship how did it take was that it gone then done um no no like we spent a good we in my mind i went okay we can still recover this but i don't think we realized the impact or the blast zone of the incident.

1:55:59And once some people who were maybe a bit more dogmatic about their religion or a bit more fundamental had taken it, it became just a barrage of abuse. And I don't resent that. I think if it was your first time encountering two white guys on a stream making offhand comments, of course you were going to go, you know who the hell are you you know but if you knew the context and again it's most things you knew the context you would have gone yeah but that guy kind of makes jokes like that and we know where he's coming from but that's been the problem i think for most people who get cancelled there probably are a few people who deserve it i don't really think there are but If you add the context, then most people go, oh yeah, completely.

1:56:39I get it. No need to cancel. You're good. Crack on. That's most of the time what cancellation. That's as far as it should go. But our relationship, I said, I was advocating for, let's just go head on at it, publicly acknowledge it, publicly acknowledge that you were ignorant and that I should have maybe in the moment stepped in and said something more, you know, commanding or whatever you want to call it. And that, you know, we know that it was a joke, but also it was poorly judged. So, you know, it's forgivable in that sense. And I think Brian and I just didn't line up in terms of strategy. And the podcast that we ended up putting out was very mealy mouth, kind of not really there.

1:57:21and it i think a lot of people were waiting for the right tone to be hit because we'd hit it before to kind of go all right yeah let's crack on and that just never happened because i think it sent us both reeling and the cancellation felt just like a tidal wave and it at that point it really it it just almost in like a human psychology way we just got we we almost got swept along with it and we couldn't write it back. We did some live streams together after he'd been cancelled or after we'd been cancelled. You could tell we'd both just been through an exhausting few weeks and then the World Cup came and we tried to do some streams and then after that, we exchanged some messages and then I remember one day we just hadn't messaged each other and it just felt like it just fizzled out and that felt very like sad and that I added to the level of pressure and depression that was going on and it wasn't until like even just a few months ago where I'd gone oh you were depressed I was depressed and like I had no choice but to deal with it because it's just cancellation is just put there and I had no choice but to try and go out there and try and find another route because there was no financial recourse for us to make a living and fully do what we wanted to do anymore yeah it's weird because you're in a little bubble you don't realize the extent of the sort of mental health right of it did you realize no not at all you don't realize because like you say it's your income you support your family you get a newborn and that probably made the decision either it's the decision easier to step back because you've got a daughter you know and it's you still want to do the right thing, but you just needed time to breathe.

1:59:15And it's probably a great distraction. We don't want my kids to be a distraction, of course, but it's probably a great indicator. Well, wait a minute, life isn't bad. Healthy kid, healthy wife. It's okay. Well, that's the way I would have went with the mindset. It definitely is fine. Help his progress, you know? Yeah. Yeah, you're right, I think. And maybe I wouldn't describe it as an excuse to an extent, but I think it certainly, it made... having a daughter makes those things you know you can just have a kid yeah even not not small because it's destroyed her fucking life yeah but cancellations in the mind right cancellation doesn't exist i said to dapper last three years ago he made a rape joke cancelled yeah i said listen cap and they end up hitting the drink and the drugs but cancellations in the mind don't forget what you've done what you achieved now there's nine billion people on the fucking planet it goes full cycle again if you decided to pick up a podcast tomorrow right i guarantee it'll be three months before you got back to where you were if not bigger people do forget people do forgive some people want to jump on the bandwagon katie hopkins has been cancelled she's come back stronger tommy robinson what you agree with him cancelled come back stronger dapper laughs come back stronger andrew tate whether you agree with or not he's up for human trafficking he's one of the most populous men on the planet so cancellations in the mind so don't forget what you've achieved what you overcome obviously you hit stumbling blocks in life yeah i think you've had enough break now but for me i get back on it man i'd fucking do what you do best i get back behind the camera i get back doing podcasts and that's just whether you take my advice i don't know but you were the fucking blueprint you and brian done amazing work done some fucking great interviews that people can still watch they're timeless yeah so don't forget who you were obviously you can get hurt and you can get wounded and you think oh nobody loves me anymore but so in the mind they've cancelled my fucking instagram my instagram facebook tiktok i picked it back up because you can deflate you and you've had a couple of strikes on youtube but you've got to play the game i'll get shit now people the media have printed some mad shit fake but i'll bounce back i'll come back stronger because the only person who quits is you the only person who stops is you the only person who cancels you is you no matter what they say on twitter fuck what they say fuck what they say in the comments whether you want to be muslim or not fucking own it with some chest if you want to start doing podcasts again do it with some shit like I say that conversation with you and Brian could kick start potentially you doing your own thing just to putting it to bed because you were massive in the game not just UK but worldwide and that's a fucking massive thing you know so I think it's easier said than done cancellations in the mind but sometimes we can forget and that's the most important thing don't forget what you achieved how many channels you accomplished how many levels you went to and like I say leaving the blueprint for me So don't forget ever what you've done and what you've been through either.

2:02:04I think it can, trauma in particular, I think can make those things fade because your brain just kind of shuts those things off. And I think to an extent that cancellation is a great tool if you want to get rid of those people who are saying those things. Because you can go, great, we'll put this person through trauma and they will compartmentalize that part of themselves. what i realized was in that time i really like dangerous people like i really like someone who lived a little bit of that light like i'm brian was a character i was kind of drawn towards i could see the appeal of him we didn't agree on everything but i knew there was a good heart of a person there i knew there was someone who was aiming in the right direction anthony bourdain people like this someone said to me the other day they were like uh yeah we want this guy to be the next Anthony Bourdain and he did like travel and food and I was like with all due respect the guy we were talking about is never going to be the next Anthony Bourdain because he hasn't done heroin he hasn't worked in the worst restaurants in the world and been abused by all these different people and you know fucked all these different women and all this sort of shit so he's not going to be the same person on camera but it's that's what I'm interested in is like the the living of life you don't have to have jumped off a cliff or done the most extreme thing but you just have to have been willing to approach whatever those things were that were your challenges and do it with that level of commitment that you're talking about and i think i was very shy of that level of commitment again because i've been so there was so there was such a deep scar from some of that stuff that happened back to back and to an extent you want you don't want to get it like your brain sort of goes don't get it wrong again because if you go through that again like i don't know what i'm gonna do but that i think is that's scary it's fear but i'm coming to the phase of my life now where i go okay like let's let's see get get back on that horse not necessarily you know reignite true geordie or whatever i'd love to chat to him and i'd love to chat to him i'd love for us to do something but the goal was always that i'd help brian build his thing and then i go and build my thing and that that like i'd healthily contributed to someone else's life dream which would be joe rogan in the uk and then i would have a you know like similar to what i guess joe rogan's universe has you know you've got all these other comedians you've got fiel von and all those guys but we the stumbling block stopped that from that velocity from happening but like you say it's getting back on the horse that is possible 100 % having that conversation you don't even know like I say Brian sees this it might spark something he's still doing his stuff his studies are still decent you know it's like a little spark goes out you become complacent sometimes in your journey but the only thing about the Americans they help each other who do we know in the UK we're sitting with each other subscribe to him Joe Rogan's built more millionaires and more podcasts than anyone we don't do that in the UK I don't it's all competition.

2:05:09I'll try and help people, give people connections. People come on this podcast, they've got book deals, movies, they've done other things. Just because other people have contacted them. But for an industry, we don't help each other enough. We're not sitting in each other's podcast. We're not building each other up. That's the industrial revolution. It's fucking madness. That's old history. And again, when people talk about being British, there is an element of that. Do you know what I mean? It's like the kind of... people would almost like I had the benefit once of um I was cancelled cancelled and it was I was gonna like put it this way I mentally gave into the cancellation that happened uh when I made some kind of poorly judged jokes about a charity of football match on a live stream and someone else clipped it up and uh they kind of white knighted themselves by going look at this guy he hates x y and z and they kind of very tightly clipped all this stuff up and it became quite a big thing and at the time we couldn't really respond brian and i because we felt that the guy who had done the clipping had a long-term strategy to basically just try to completely take our legs out and he'd go for me he'd go for brian he'd go for anyone associated with us so that he could become the top podcast dog.

2:06:30So we just left it. And essentially I had to eat that cancellation and it impacted quite heavily on my own self-perception, right? And that had a big impact on how I felt about myself for years. But that was, that essentially that was a win for that person because I stopped doing certain aspects of my own personality or the thing I'd wanted to do online because I was scared of the impact that it would have. I was scared that someone would come back and try and cancel me or try and do all those, like try and do what they did again. That trauma was quite deep. But look where your life ended up. You ended up having given up on yourself, basically.

2:07:13But that, yeah. Sorry, that's where I was going with that. Essentially then, I didn't, I lost a huge element of who I was in like in saying i like dangerous people i don't i don't obviously i'm not going to go to a prison and go let me find the nearest murderers but like you want those men in your life who have got a little bit of that mri but they just know how to control it and like that's why i liked frank when we interviewed him on the podcast it was like this guy could grab my neck right now and snap my head and he doesn't he chooses not to that i think is having strong competent men and humans or women it's really important in your life to see that that is possible yeah it's having that grit yeah it's so important fuck's it look at me ty's name's convicted rapist right and people still love him right i'm not saying fucking do that and come back from that but cancellation Again is in the mind It's how you Let the noise Drain your energy It's how you then See the world At no delivery It's all bullshit People forget easily So it's Yesterday's fucking newspapers So again It's straight back on the horse And start fighting But sometimes it's good To take a break Because I guarantee Because you've went through It will not ever affect you again No matter what's Around the corner Because you've already felt it It's like More layers come over you Right You think so Fuck but You're a father You're a husband So it's time to then Do what you do best Yeah.

2:08:43You know, did you, how was the, sorry for asking, but the Philly and Chunks, you were the producer of that, weren't you? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Philly's going through his shit, but again, I'm on the fence. I don't know until everything's out, then you can make judgment. I think people are too easy to jump on the judgment train with only one side of a story, you know? But how was that podcast? Well, that podcast was incredible. Obviously. How did you get that gig? um i obviously had the fallout from the true geordie situation and then uh they're like the people the team who deal with them reached out to me and said will you help us essentially and uh to build a podcast because you know you're a good conversationalist or whatever you want to call it and both of those guys i think chunks knew me more than philly did but we ended up having like a we have multiple meetings and then obviously it was big because they were both two really big celebrities, they're bigger than celebrities I think people don't realise how big particularly Chunks is in terms of his following and just people who listen to him and also how much he deserves that, like I've seen the amount of work that he puts in behind the scenes and the kind of guy that he is and I think you can kind of just assume things about people I've really enjoyed watching the people that I've worked with, including Brian, doing their craft.

2:10:09And he's really good at that. And then we just built that podcast. And then, you know, it kind of, it was going to go, you know, there were hopes of like tours and all kinds of things. And I honestly, I don't know now where that, obviously I know where the podcast is anyway, But I don't know where that situation in Australia sits because, you know, who you meant to talk to, you can't just call the police and go, hey, what's going on there? Do you know what I mean? And also people can't talk about things to just random ex-producers of podcasts. So, it's... I think, again, it was kind of a painful situation, because I felt someone was being...

2:10:49My biggest takeaway from that was how much glee some people took, again, in the UK, out of just a bad situation happening. And being part of the industry... Obviously, the outcome is potentially that someone is gonna get convicted of a very serious crime. What my belief is of that is almost irrelevant to the situation of, should therefore Twitter have a gleeful day or a gleeful week around someone being arrested in another country and potentially having a very serious conviction? That to me all felt quite distasteful. Um, and I, again, it's kind of a British thing, it feels like. I'm starting to think you're the Grim Reaper, man.

2:11:36Every cunt you come round, you get cancelled. Ashley will maybe hesitated before I took you on the podcast. That was one of the jokes at the time of people like, oh, this guy like picks people. But like, again, like that kind of, like you said, like cancellation comes from you not controlling your own story and not being in control of that is like a very unusual feeling. Do you think you felt it was a, maybe not you, but you become sort of untouchable when you, because your streams used to get, what, 3040k live? A lot. That is mega. Yeah. At one point, it was like 100 ,000 people would be watching on YouTube, that was.

2:12:10Some people are getting 50 million, 100 million contracts now for that. But do you think there's an element sometimes you think you're too untouchable because you've said things and got away with it in the past? Not so much you, but Brian, where... Well, so we both kind of said things, but kind of at different ends of the political spectrum. And the right, weirdly, was much less likely to cancel something that you said on the left. They were just likely to just give you a bit of abuse. Whereas I feel like cancellation initially back then was much more of a like left wing thing, or at least it was kind of like perceived that way.

2:12:39So I was much more like, less likely to get cancelled because I was more left leaning. Yeah. And I was basically saying like, hey, give everyone a bite of the pie. Like, and it's very hard to cancel someone for that. Do you know what I mean? Do you think you've changed a bit now from the left? Um, I just think similar to the way that you and I are speaking about it, it's become a lot more muddy as to who, as to what we think and what we feel. And you know i i what what are we meant to how are we meant to treat tommy robinson now like the guy clearly has a big following he clearly there are clearly a lot of people that relate to his experience but i still don't agree with a lot of what he says but would i love to get in the same room as him and talk to him and find out why yeah of course because if he's someone of influence But initially, obviously, I was much more likely to go, now, fuck that guy, like, you know.

2:13:37Yeah, because he's... Why did you never have Tommy on? Tommy requested to be on the podcast quite a lot. And we... He said it was because we were worried about sponsors. And that wasn't true. It was basically that we didn't actually... We didn't feel that it would have been productive, should we say, to have him on, because we didn't know, we didn't have a good grounding or anchor as to where we thought we could ask him meaningful questions. And that was kind of the goal of the podcast, was to come away with something meaningful, or what we felt was meaningful. And we didn't feel there was an editorial line for us to give him that platform, because it was a platform back then.

2:14:20And some people might say, well, he gave David Icke a platform or whatever, which is fair enough. I think that's a very legit argument. But we, I in particular, and Brian, didn't feel that we could have had a meaningful line of questioning to come away with something rather than just allow him to say what he wanted to say. Because similar to the conversation we just had about immigrants and rapists and those kind of things, we were skeptical of statistics. Like, why is it that we will one minute say we can't trust the government, but the next minute we'll go, but this survey conducted by the government shows that these...

2:14:57Yeah, true. It's like, and then we also say, well, he didn't enter the country with the papers that he needed. And it's like, well, who gives the papers in Afghanistan? Who gives the papers in whatever country it is that these people are subject to these wars? But as passport control will you get, make passports stop? Well, when a war starts, is passport control open? I don't think so. Is the place where they print passports available? I think that probably is one of the early things to stop during war. Do you know what I mean? So when someone says, they didn't have all the papers stamped, I'm like, well, of course they fucking didn't.

2:15:30The office was bombed. Do you know what I mean? That's a fair point, definitely. And we can't say, and with one hand, we don't trust the government, but with the other hand, but all the surveys they're putting out there seem pretty accurate. Well, the ones that I like anyway, is like that, uh, what was that? It was, uh, Yes Minister was the comedy in the 80s, which was about like, you know, all the ministers in parliament. And there's that classic sketch that comes from that, which is like you can make a survey, say whatever you want. And basically they then play out how someone on a street does a survey of people and they go, well, you worried about foreigners?

2:16:05And they go, well, I'm not worried about foreigners. And they go, well, you know, what do you know about this set of people from this country? You know, if someone there was to rape the person, would you be against that? And it'd be like, okay, would you want those kind of people in the country? No, okay. Okay. So you're saying you don't want foreign people in the country who may potentially rape people. Okay. So you don't want foreigners in the country. And they'll like lead people down a path and suddenly this group think just becomes us just reading a fucking Twitter Twitter's so toxic man.

2:16:33A tweet of someone going, yeah, the foreigners are the problem. And it's like... Yeah, Twitter's toxic man. You know, I'd say... See when they was going through the one with like Conor McGregor and Tyson Fury as well, are these planned? Like these are the biggest names on the planet. So does it help business or does it jeopardize it? Well, obviously there's no such thing as bad publicity they say, but... No, but you get a lot of eyes. Yeah. I think the Tyson Fury one was like a happy, what can you say, like a happy mistake. Like no one set out to like piss him off. But I think also at the time, Tyson was pretty, I was just smelling his own farts a little bit maybe.

2:17:11Because it got a lot of barking for that, Brian. It got a lot of barking for Tyson. Yeah, mainly because the public felt the way that Brian was expressing it, right? They felt like, yeah, actually we do want to see the big fights and we feel like you are dodging that. And, you know, whether that's a legit point or not, and whether it was Brian's position to do that, I don't know. But maybe with a prominent platform like the Pain Game or whatever, the best place to do it. But the McGregor, I think, Brian, they hadn't had any interactions at that time. And I've got to admit, I did feel a little bit unusual that we were just covering only his controversies rather than maybe doing a bit of the journalistic element of it.

2:17:50But also fighters live in a very one-dimensional world, basically, which is I'm either the good guy or the bad guy in this world. And if you challenge them as the good guy, then they'll think you're the bad guy. Conor McGregor on his up man I loved him I loved the law of attraction I love it it was achieving but what he's up to now is fucking nuts it's pretty but also it kind of goes you know he's trying to do the politics and I feel like maybe it comes from some of the cancellation that he went through or some of the pushing to the periphery you know he got pushed to the edge and now he's kind of I think he's a bit untethered I'm not quite I don't know if I can judge it Honestly, that's the way he presents to me.

2:18:30Yeah. I used to listen to him speaking. I thought he is on it. Everything he says came into fruition. Right. It was so switched on to me whether money... Money does change people. 100%. They say it doesn't change people. They say it just shows people's true versions of who they are when they get money, which is probably a better version. I don't even know if that necessarily feels true. I feel like everyone... You're always living in the true version of yourself. like whether you have the money or not that but maybe there's like maybe the person's desires come out more and like as a society we treat desires as truth and i'm not quite sure why how's life been then since all that like the last is that you sort of rebuilding yeah trying to uh how long was this two years two years and like like i said like i think you get to point where you're i was maybe depressed i would argue for about a year um uh but like that's not really medical i think it was just like a realization probably about 18 months after the thing and then you sort of go okay so i was kind of float like just you you are never quite in with what's really going on when you're depressed.

2:19:44And... I didn't... You don't realize it. You can't see that. You can't look through that. And so that had a big impact. And then since then, I've been trying to build on where we were at. But what's weird is, obviously, there were a lot of people who were like, yeah, we'd love to work with you. But there were also some people who treated me like I'd just come out of Chernobyl. And it was sort of like, whoa, put that guy in there. behind an iron curtain. Fuck them though. No, fuck them. And that was kind of my point was like, there were some friends of mine, you know, I'm not here to settle any scores, but there's some friends of mine who I thought, I would have thought at that time I was like, I can rely on you.

2:20:20And I couldn't. And some people would think that's Rory and Adam and Booby. I'm not talking about those guys. I'm talking about people in the industry where I thought, okay, if I ever lose this, I can come to you and you'll have my back. And they just turned their back on me because it was just that they were advised by other people. Again, it's all mental, the cancellation. But what's interesting about cancellation is it's not just you who has to believe it. If someone else believes it, that you're cancelled, you can't do that either. So for a little while, well, we can't work with you because of what you said about these guys.

2:20:54And I'm like, well, I didn't say that. And I didn't endorse that. And this, do you know what I mean? And so I had to work through that. whilst what like you said i still felt a sense of loyalty to a person that i thought had been wrongfully pushed to the edge so i spent a long time like balancing those two things out so not slagging him off but also not endorsing what he said was a hard balance to have and that that was like very heavy on my shoulders for a while. And the big indicator was, I don't know, have you ever spoken to anyone about hair? This is why I think it's hilarious. Steven from time to time.

2:21:37Yeah, right. Okay. Yeah. A lot of experience. Yeah. Butchering hair like hair hair. Yeah. Yeah. I'd grown my hair out. Yeah. And I grew my hair out for about 18 months after that happened, but I was already doing it before this happened, right? I mean, probably about this length when we were cancelled. and for some way of reason my mind I just wasn't willing to cut my hair but I was obsessed with like not cutting it and I remember being like I've just got to like find a way to just keep it and so in the end I gave myself a mission privately and this wasn't like a public thing I grow it and donate it to a charity that made wigs out of the hair that you have for people who were going through chemotherapy, because my own dad had had cancer and I hadn't seen him lose his hair to an extent, but I had just seen the impact it has on your body.

2:22:34And I felt that was something that I just wanted to do. But it kind of like, it was weird. It was as if the hair like carried that energy with me, a little bit like radiation or like kind of like that, not like radiotherapy, I'm talking about by no means of, I think cancer therapies looks really hard. And it was when I cut it, I remember that day just feeling like, wow, even now I kind of get goosebumps just thinking about it. Like it felt as if I just moved a whole load of stuff off my shoulders and it had just been sitting there for a very long time. and i'd kind of like it mentally i'd subconsciously moved that chapter but it was a it felt like that represented something i think that was like a shield or there was some sort of connection to the trauma that you were going through maybe it's down to you could attribute it to a few things like because you could also say it's like that is it syphysis who like pushes the boulder up the hill and he's willing to carry that weight forever.

2:23:46You could say it's a Samson thing where your power's in your hair. You could, however you want to say it. For me, it was that I didn't believe that I, maybe mentally, I didn't believe I was worthy yet of getting out of that period because I hadn't resolved it. And I really struggled with the idea of worthiness in that time. I think you linger too much in your pain. I, and I, yeah, I, I, my wife says like a ruminant. You overthink it. Yeah, you fucking, and I wouldn't say you don't embrace it, but you're in it too long. And it's easy for me to say, and you're a loyal fucking guy. I'm trying to be, but some people online don't believe that.

2:24:25Fuck them. You're loyal to the core because if you weren't, you'd have done a lot of damage and you could have rode the wave and fucked Brian over where you would have come out clean. I had so many people, but I also, I did look down the line and go, well, a year from now, would I be able to live with myself in public life if I'd have gone, And yeah, you know what? And he says this about, and he doesn't say this stuff, but like, you know, and you should hear the stuff he says about these guys and those guys. Because Brian and I, we shared everything. Like we knew, I knew everything about, and I thought I knew everything about his life.

2:24:54Maybe I didn't know everything, but we shared, you know, one of the first people I called when my son was born was him, he cried. And those people go, well, you can't have been real friends if this broke you up. All of the, like, people think there's just one perception of everything. Yeah. We, and again, I don't come on a podcast and go, thanks for branding me as loyal. That's really going to help my personal brand. I guess I do still feel a sense of loyalty towards him, even if I haven't served him in that sense. But look at the memories you've created. You've needed each other. 100%. Yours were each other's pickups.

2:25:28Yours were each other's - Right. I wouldn't say downfalls, but you've needed each other. We were more common wise. Look at the memories you created that you, nobdicking, look at the people you've interviewed. dude, look at the money he's created, look at the sponsors he's got, look at the friendships, the laughs, talking about the office before it even started. Once you sell out completely and go, I'm fucking him over just for your own gain, that's something you'll live with for your whole life. Now you've embraced the pain, you've sat with it, you've grew your fucking hair, you felt sorry for yourself.

2:25:57But for me, it's get back on the horse. Do what you do best. Try and patch it with him. Sort a podcast maybe in the future and then kick on and do your own thing. But look what he's created. And sometimes I think, the spark can go but you need that extra person and it's probably more beneficial for you to reach out and actually put it to bed because that'll be the chapter closed and then it'll be like the hairs come off again i think so i think that's when you can then move on he'll start doing he's still doing good content but then content will improve yours will improve you'll start getting back on to what you do best you know that's just for my advice and from interviewing people i think it's just best to talk about the past i didn't like this i didn't like that but then laugh about it because there's no point of dwelling on it i agree because you end up fucked and what's the point of that because life goes by too fast and there's certain fucking things you'll see or smells i think and it'll take you back to oh yeah what it's good but i'm telling you now you can go bigger and better from what you were then but sometimes the mind and the cancellation and he doesn't like his and i'm cancelled here fuck everybody else you know it's just all a part of or perception of the world.

2:27:02When was the last time you spoke to him? Oh, mate, like now almost two years ago. Yeah, it was a long time ago. But it's funny because, what is it they say? The heart grows fonder. Right. But my heart hadn't really changed much in that time. I think maybe at the time also, we'd spent such a long time together. It felt like a bit of a relief for both of us. But even space. Yeah, to not have the pressure of having to kind of support the other one in a sense. And so there was a period of like relief in probably his life as much, not to have to, you know, have someone else take part in that. But like you said, like, yeah, the heart does grow fond.

2:27:42Obviously, you know, I'm sure there's a bunch of people that go, oh, you should never endorse this. I don't care. You're right. There are a bunch of great memories and really good experiences. The internet also just moves on very, very quick. And it's very quick if you're not always reminding people of those things and poking them and going, hey, do you remember that time when we did the thing? That they go, oh, who cares? But there's a bunch of people doing podcasts now who almost, they owe the entirety of the podcast space that they're in, in the UK, to him. Definitely, I agree. And I think, if that's, maybe they don't want to acknowledge that because that's awkward or like, you know, you want to feel like a man in your right or whatever.

2:28:23But there are a lot of people in England who owe their, the cultivating of that space to that initial genesis. And I think, to an extent, it's healthy to acknowledge those things. Does that make sense? But nobody does because it's all ego and people want to feel as if they do it themselves. Sure. But like I said, I used to take guests and I think, but then again, people do that to me and I don't mind that. Yeah. But everything has competition. It's something maybe we need to work on as a whole to help build each other up. Right. Because the UK is very small, but I watched the Americans do it and they do it right.

2:28:55they constantly build each other up without any ego without any fucking badness you know so what's your plans for the future then i want to honestly i want to direct um like i want to make uh i'm really interested in documentary i think the world probably needs more discussions at the moment about what's kind of the reality of what's happening and it doesn't mean you know I'm not talking about going to CNN or whatever, but like, I think, especially from my own perspective now, we need more people who are willing to have conversations. I'm not talking on or off a podcast about experience and life.

2:29:38And I love telling stories. I love like the just helping people work out what a story really is. and that for me is where i want to go with that that's that was what we did with brian i'm essentially i was there to help him tell his story and the same to an extent with chunks and all these people i love finding out like what what really is happening rather than just the surface you know hey i'm a hero kind of thing i think that's so boring but get back on it brother that's only my advice i appreciate i've worked through the years you know and everything can change you know it's something you will laugh about yeah and hopefully you do it with brian go remember you says that you're daft and then it will make you stronger if you utilize it that way like i've said there's people who have become cancer would have become even bigger yeah so it's all down with the mindset and the mindset is a powerful thing we can get lost and that little guilt trip of feeling sorry for ourselves what could have been but look you've had more positives from that life and that chapter the negatives yeah you know so I would get back on it I look forward to seeing what you do if you're doing anything I can help with if you ever want to do anything documentaries I'll send you my documentaries over that I've done I've got a few things in the pipeline I've got big things big dreams to keep going but again you get sidetracked navigating right fuck it it's life but for anybody watching brother I know you've had your own struggles for anybody that's maybe battling right now what advice would you have for them the main thing I'd say is just don't stop and it's not you might feel like you're stopped at the moment or you might feel like you're particularly uh stuck again you you speak about this quite a lot just keep exploring and keep even if it's a minor thing that you're exploring it's like exploring outside of your bed get into the bathroom or get into your living room or get into work or whatever, continue to move and continue to live, basically.

2:31:41Because I think a lot of people, I don't know, maybe not a lot of people, but there are a lot of people who can feel cowed by what's happened or what their experience is. And my experience was to just keep moving, I was like, Rocky, keep moving forward, you know? It, that, that was, I didn't realize it, but that was how I kept momentum in life. Because I think a lot of people think of momentum as like, it's got to, you know, it's the shooting star. Whereas actually it can just be a really small, slow roll of something that might gain momentum in the end. and that for me multiple times now in my life has been about just keep doing I have where do you hold your stress in your body?

2:32:31my shoulders so mine's my legs and probably my shoulders weirdly I just don't hold it there anymore my legs I can do a stretch on my legs and completely change my mentality in 5 minutes And if I do that stretch every day, a week later, I will see my body, my demeanor, my thinking completely change. And I think it's that small change. You're not like bound to these little mental things that go on. It can just be like as simple as doing a stretch or as simple as just eating a good meal or whatever it is. That is momentum as far as I'm concerned. Yeah. I feel like I say, you've done amazing things.

2:33:20I appreciate that. And I appreciate you saying it. It really is. It helps, especially I am surrounded by a lot of people who I see regularly. It feels bizarre to see you like in flesh because I always see you as a YouTube video or as a clip or as like, it's really weird to like step into a room with you and see a human 3D person because it's like, you know, like you're a character in my life. Do you know what I mean? But like I say, you left the blueprint. Don't forget what you've done and you can go bigger and better again. It's all down to the individual. This will make you stronger. And hopefully after this, you might feel a bit tired, but hopefully it's a cleanse where you go, do you know what?

2:33:57Fucking Scottish cunts, right? I definitely was thinking that Scottish cunts, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. But Lawrence, would you like to finish up on anything else, brother? I keep doing what you're doing because I'm really interested. I think there are, in this time when there are a lot of people who are afraid to speak to one side or the other or kind of start an echo chamber, it it's really great to have just a conversation and just a place where it's almost like a reference i almost treat i would treat what you do like chat gpt almost uh are you not be your ai but like that i go to chat gpt and go give me the opposite of what i'm thinking right now that is a there's not many people who are meaningfully just allowing people to lay out their thoughts without an agenda and I think that is really important to be doing.

2:34:44It's like a public service almost in a time when, frankly, the public services aren't particularly doing a good job. So I appreciate what you're doing. I think it's really important. And it's kind of what I would have loved to have thought our podcast was doing. So I'm glad you are. Yeah, but listen, brother, I wish you nothing but the best. Thank you very much. Again, thank you for the work that you've done as well. And I actually look forward to seeing what you do for the future, brother. Same.

2:35:10you