My Life Behind Bars - Glasgow Crime Boss Paul Ferris

32:53So a successful criminal does not get caught, do they? That's a million percent. And I'm glad you say that. And a lot of people turn around and think, oh, that's a glamorous life, is it? You sit in a Disney map what prison you're in or you're getting a visit. The minute your family walk up, sit up for that table at the end of the visit and walk away, you're fucked. That's the one that just, the judge does not give you that sentence. You give yourself that sentence. And that's what it is. so your family goes through it as well a lot of people say well you should have mere thought for what you're doing and that's probably right but for any the younger audience that's watching that are looking towards somebody that's in the jail, always remember this visitors walk out, they've got to go back and do their sentence and it's not nice, I've cried a few times I don't mind admitting that but tears dry up you end up with your eyes like sandpaper you go on But it's not being hard, it's just being accustomed to no showing emotions because a lot of people, especially the screws, like to see it.

33:55So when you went to Belmarsh, what was that like? Because that's got the reputation. Totally different. Totally different. I've heard the Belmarsh before, and I remember walking down this fucking... Glen Ockel's got a big corridor. They called it the Russian Front. Anybody who's been in there will know. Some of them used to have to polish the fucking angle they were doing. But this one was just something else. This was a corridor that took you from one prison, into the Bills, into another prison, and don't know what you would call H Block 4. And the first time in there, I was just glad it was a nice tidy place.

34:29Single cell, sink, toilet. Food was not too bad. Canteen was all right. And I like to have a puff. I'm thinking, was it hashing? Aye, aye. A bit of solid or a bit of black. and I'm thinking, how do I get a smoke? That preoccupied me, how do I get a smoke? And while I get preoccupied, there's a Scottish group that was in there and they obviously look at your prison files and I've always been on decent jobs on the neck. Probably you get the jobs to keep the peace and different things like that but I got offered the laundry job on the wing and I took it and I got introduced to my working partner, a guy called Adnan Horshan.

35:13he was an Iraqi but with dual nationality with British and Iraqi nationality and he was in for hijacking a Sudanese Airbus hijacking it from Sudan diverting it to Dusseldorf in Germany and then refuelling to Stansted and then short political asylum and what he'd done it for he was first he's a terrorist well he's charged for terrorism my friends he's now thinking he doesn't look like that he doesn't act like that very mild mannered so as I'm getting to know him I get to know his story it turns out he's a West End actor on theatre and he got money together to go and save his family in Sudan he went over there and paid a few bribes apparently the family got out and they got stopped at the next checkpoint and then the same thing happened again so he ran out of money, ran out of patience, and I'd asked him, I was curious, I went, how did you hijack the plan?

36:18And he, and he, he gave me a story about how Westerners like spicy foods, and I'm thinking, right, where the fuck's, that's conversation with spicy foods. I went, right, and he went, but we, the people that like spicy food, liked brown sauce, HB sauce, and I'm thinking, all right, what next? He says, I used the sauce bottle, put black tape on it, held upside down like a grenade. That's what he said. And I thought, why did you have HV sauce? He said, I like it, but there's a photograph of Big Ben on it. Reminds me of being safe. And I thought, what's the chance? He said, I don't know if it's a one-off, but I don't know many airplanes or anybody that's fucking put black tape on it.

37:03So you hijacked a German grenade. Ah, that's what he's done it with. And then I said to him, why did you do it? The family's going to get killed and at that time you need to get back in politics. Saddam Hussein had invaded Kuwait so he was a bit of pariah in the newspapers anyway and the media. The whole Western world was against him. So Adnan Horshan's defence and the rest of them was to make sure that they had a duress, an English law, that they wouldn't have done that if their life was not at risk or their family's life was not at risk. So he ran quite a tidy defence and they won his case. And anybody that's looking to fact check, check Adnan Horshan, the sauce bottle.

37:54That's mad, isn't it? That's one of the characters that I met. And then during the course of Adnan telling me a story, another Scottish boy came in, Stephen Tormey, he's Steph. wee orange guy, wee rangers photo and he pulled me aside and gave me some tobacco and said you have to go in the exercise yard tomorrow to see who the IRA I thought the IRA? I thought the IRA might see me first if you don't go on you need to go I'm out and exercise and I remember vaguely another Scottish guy coming there with grey hair and he's walking how you doing my name's Paul Mick how you doing and I had to say to him after the second lap Mick you need to fuck off here because I might be in a bit of trouble and he surprised me by saying well I'm way if you're in trouble I'm in trouble I went no no no you can't you don't fight with these sort of people he went who I went it's the IRA and he said it's me he was the IRA he was on remand for the mortar bomb attack in Heathrow Airport.

39:07And I thought, we had a lot in common. He stayed in Landsfield Quay, I stayed in Landsfield Quay. And I remember seeing surveillance in Landsfield Quay. I thought it was for me, it was obviously for him. And then I go to the nitty gritty and I said, what can I do for my, he said, could you get me a hair dye? And I thought, hair dye, I'm trying to get a fucking. I could have gone. I'm trying to get a couple of joints. I don't want to look like Morgan said. I've never been asked that so there's always a way to get something so I was being truthful by saying leave it with me and see what can be done no blowing my own trumpet, see if it could there's always something that can be done in jail did he have a bud or something coming up?

39:47no, what I'd asked him, this was another fucking weird thing, I said to him so what colour was your hair before you were it? And he said Ginger, and I thought Ginger, I ain't fucking buying hair dye, so I thought But what he did is, how long have you been on remand, Mick? He said, three years. I said, why do you need to dye your hair? He said, I need somebody that's already identified me as the guy with the ginger hair. I said, all right. I said, you obviously go dye in the house. He went, aye, but I can get my wife to get another new bottle. I went, do that. Because that way you know the colour.

40:23There's that variation of the different colour. I've never fucking dyed hair in my life, especially ginger hair. so I called off the exercise to go up to what you call the bubble where you get clothes that's been sent in socks, underpants, boxers, t-shirts tracksuits and that's when I met another guy called Edgar Pearce an older guy, he was called the Mardi Gras bomber and he was famous for putting explosives in Sainsbury's bags and leaving them a bit of nutcase, really. But he had the biggest pair of drawers I've ever seen, a big, massive pair of underpants. Even the screw was laughing, going, Edgar, come on, look at these ones.

41:07And there's a story with it, because he ended up getting that much abuse out of it. He ditched them, but they were brand new. And I thought, as an idea, he'll walk in socks. So I told Mick, the IRA boy, to get his wife to put all the hair dye in the socks let it dry out and then send them in along with t-shirts boxers and they go to them and that was the day I got elevated for the laundry man to being the laundry man and the barber and I've never cut hair in my fucking life so you thought you were potentially an IRR wanting me to do you I don't know I'm no anti-politics and yet he's wanting a bottle of fucking hair dye no I think it's because were you the man to get stuff into the jails no no no I think the whole position was I'm Scottish I'm Glaswegian I'm one of his AIM type of people sort of thing Glaswegian and that's just a request that's probably his first time I'm a seasoned veteran by that time so by the time I get he's he's hair dry I need to look for a stash before I do anything and because I'm in the laundry room I've seen Edgar Pearce's Thunder Punch and I thought that's a cracker so I've got a Mars bar turned the drawers inside and went right in there's always no way to have shut yourself right so that was in the laundry bag the socks were in the laundry bag and then at night time that was me doing my hair cut my barber but I did I got somebody who was cutting hair to get in and cut Max's hair first somebody on the phone to keep watch and then somebody on the landing to prevent somebody coming up for the cell so in in these prison cells you've got a sink so when you're sitting down in the sink I've got tepid water there's a mirror on it but you can't see it so I've got this sock dipped it into the tepid water and it went fralescent fucking orange like high vis jacket and I thought that's a bit severe going for great to this so I'm rubbing it on his hair and my hands looked as if I smoked 300 fucking cigarettes a day right and I'll go to these eyebrows so I've done it and I'm thinking I think we're going to fall out here we're going to fall out and I'm getting ready for rolling about and I went there you go I'm actually dragged his hair jumped up looked in the mirror and went fucking perfect but we'd already put our name we already put our name down for pool and the rules are they keep the white ball all the rest of the balls are in there for security reasons in case somebody puts it in a sock and whacks them or the pool queue somebody gets whacked so you need to sign them out and this Scotty screw was there and he sat down the crossword and he's shouting fair is Gallica for pool so I'm there anyway I'm trying to get this fucking ginger die off my hands and I remember taking the ball we still couldn't come off so I've took the ball and I've signed for it so I'm playing on the table with the ball waiting for this Mick take him then he's on the top landing and it was like a catwalk as soon as I've looked up and I'm trying to look away because there's other prisoners going look at him it's as though it was a new guy on the wing it wasn't it Sammy just had his head swaggered in the fucking styles gets to the desk with the screw he's given him the pool cue and he's done a double take next thing he's lifted the phone the alarm bells went off everybody's locked up because he's changed his identity and they never found the die so I had to top it up every two or three months and I did make a throw away comment but I think it was took the wrong way maybe I've not explained it properly but I wasn't making any disrespect towards people who have died for the cause, physically died for the cause.

44:54But after the fourth or fifth thing I said to Mick, I must be the only guy who died for the cause that many times. Just because you did die. And whether it worked for him at court, I don't know. But that was one of the funniest episodes, just seeing the screws face and the hair dying. I thought, there's loads of characters in here. Did they get sentenced? Did you know? I'm not too sure what happened. I get moved away before it. And I think he did get convicted. I'm not too sure whether he heard that he worked or not. Bill Marsh has got some heavy names in it, Paul. That's the categories, isn't it?

45:26Well, we were. That's kind of... It's still very secure, but there's a place called the SSU, which is a super secure unit. I was never in it. That's where you get double catty that was in it. So I know that I want to see it again. I know. But it was secure. Even the family to get visits. How that used to work was. My sister first came down, I did a closed visit, and the cops had to, you've got to put down who you want to come and visit you. The prison staff take the details, and then they put it out to the nearest local authority, who then send the local cops to the door. They take photographs to prove who she is.

46:11They send the photographs back. And then when they turn up at prison, they take the fingerprints, and that photograph should match up with the photographs that the police had took. And that's the only way you got in. What were you doing down in England? I was visiting. No, I came down just on the chance I'd seen some extended family. And genuinely that day I was going to collect some photographs with my old mate Arthur Sutton. I've interviewed a lot of people now, Paul, as you know. Listen, I'm not daft. Some people came on the show and I go, I'm fucking idiot you're talking pish but yourself and not to blow smoke up your ass but everybody I speak to for the boat England to the top of Scotland you're very well respected everybody speaks very highly of you why is that?

47:00I think if you're keeping your life true to you and you're not blowing smoke up your inner and you're keeping it real basically and it's not a Johnny Bravo scenario it's just I've never liked bullies I don't like bullies and if I'm asked a question I'll answer it as best as I can and if it will hurt somebody, I'll try and amend what I've got to say so it doesn't hurt them. But there are people who are due their ears to be bashed and I'm no one for holding back either. So you tell it how it is, people like you for it or they don't like you for it. It's just one of the things, James. Was Big Bronson in it, Bill Marsh, at the time you were there?

47:33Well, the strange thing about it is the Iraqi guy that I met, Adnan Horshan, who hijacked the Sudanese Airbus, took hostage, with Charles Bronson and I get told the whole story about that and I tell you to him what happened with Charlie Bronson he said oh he's mad he said they bust a pillow gave them a feather each took his shoes and socks off and told them to tickle his feet he's never laughed for a while and he's we've just come out of one death situation and be hijacked and kidnapped for this crackpot so Charlie Bronson's demand was a couple of cheeseburgers in a helicopter and they'd wanted Adnan to fly it and in Charlie Bronson's mind it's because he's hijacked an airplane it would then follow that he can fly in a helicopter Disney World two different separate things sure he told him if he didn't get the cheeseburgers he was going to start eating the hostages mad I think he might be getting it in the next year or two well I hope he does because he's done wearing some nonce fucking yeah definitely definitely.

48:42He's somebody who, Joey Pyle used to look after him in it. He's very well got, but hopefully he gets given a chance and gets his freedom. So good luck to him. You went to Phil Sutton after Belmarsh. What was that charge? It was the same charge, James. It's just, they move you. You're just getting ghosted about it? You don't get asked to move. They just come in and move you. Why? Were you high risk? No, no. For Belmarsh, Belmarsh is a bit like Berlin. It's a holding prison. It's not a long term. It's not a, somewhere where you do your long-term prison, or your sentence, rather. So they moved me from Belmars to Full Sutton, and what I never knew when I arrived in Full Sutton was I met another couple of Irish guys, but I never knew I was the subject to an internal IRA investigation in the prison because there was a kind of spurious newspaper article saying I'd been providing loyalists with firearms and a load of ballets, but enough to get you a bit of attention.

49:43So same thing again. IRA wants to see me in the exercise yard and then it went through there out of the football fields. And there's three or four football fields and there's visitors changing rooms for other football teams that come in, but that's usually where all the punishments happen and all the rest of it. So that's where the kangaroo courts are. that's where things happen and I was asked to go and attend to speak to this guy not for me to speak he's wanted to speak to me and it turns out there wasn't a lot of talk and I was to do I was to do a lot of listening but in a nice way they were nice about it and what they had said to us is do you realise why you're here?

50:27and I went no but I'm sure you're going to tell me he's went you fucking fuzzle us we know you're not with us which means the IRA and we know you're not with them which is a loyalist and I went right he says in my mind that makes you a capitalist and I laughed and I thought is that good or bad? he's went oh it depends what it is I said does that happen? he's went just about and see before you go just so I'd let you know we've got nothing to talk to Davey in here but tell your brother we ain't forgot what you've done in 1975 and I thought fucking wow you know so they're intelligence gathering, they know everything, James.

51:07They know I'm not involved with them. It was to do with the machine guns and explosives. They think it's terrorism and you must be servicing somebody. The truth about it was, never. How old did your brother do? I'm not too sure. Somebody said that he kidnapped one of the IRA or held him hostage. It was a bum and Wakefield president. I don't really know. I was only a young boy, James. I was fucking 10, 11. How many is in your family, Paul? Five, I mean. You're the youngest? No, I've got a young sister. Four sisters. Is it? Oh, sorry, three sisters. Franklin Prison after Phil Sutton, that was a three-year stunt.

51:46What was that for? No, no, that was... Franklin Prison was, again, moved under the basis that when I took me to Belmar and I got found guilty at the Old Bailey, they originally gave me 45 years. it was 15 years, 15 years, 10 years and I thought I thought I was getting 10 years, I was getting the maximum anyway James, there was no doubt about that but I was budgeted for 10 years and then when I heard the 15, the 15 and the rest of it I thought I'm 5 years out somewhere took a couple of steps down the stairs and then I heard a familiar voice calling his back up the judge had exceeded his powers so he had to reduce it, the maximum my mother 10, so I got 10, 10 and 5 and I thanked them for it.

52:35Or unconcurrent? Or concurrent, so it was the same sentence going from Belmarsh to Full Sutton, from Full Sutton to Franklin, that's the same sentence. So it was just all remands and then your sentence? Aye. What was Franklin like? Franklin was a good player, I think Franklin, they'd ran quite a good regime there. I'd done my course material there for the substance abuse enhanced thinking skills, cognitive awareness and it was kind of funny because I tried to enrol in the psychology course in full setting and I was only two days into it and get moved but Franklin don't do psychology courses, the only way they could swap it is give me a cookery course and I thought that's a bit of a leap, going from psychology to cookery courses so I just got my head down, met the Manchester boys in there and just started working away in the circuits and then playing badminton and getting myself fit you're a good badminton player I thought I wasn't sure I played a good badminton player you end up doing an average of a mile a wee dunks over the net so I was no bad I was average what kind of cats were you in with then it was all treble way double way single way so high risk all the psychopaths what boys were you in with did you meet any pals there I met a couple of boys it was in there again another Irish boy crazy we'll call him who'd escaped to a couple of Dutch prisons and that was him over in the UK to finish his sentence met a couple of Manchester boys one of the strangest ones was when I went to Franklin when they move you you don't get told you move so you can't take any food with you and it's normal hospital situation where you go and get checked out and then back onto the wing and And there was another Scottish guy there, Grant Turnbull.

54:31And he gave me what you call a food parcel. A couple of sausages, bits of bacon, a couple of eggs, bits of bread. And I thought, fuck it, I'm going to make a breakfast. Talking beans and different things like that. But what I never knew was the kitchen that I'm using, they don't cook bacon in it, don't cook pork in it. It was a Muslim, yardy, Rastafarian kitchen. and I met one of the Rasta boys in Belmarsh and that kind of saved my bacon for wanting to be a bit of a word because I had the bacon under the grill pan and I could sense a bit of tension because there was three or five of them standing they all looked like big basketball players it didn't matter what they were, they always looked the fucking part and I'm thinking I'm banging trouble here so I put more oil in the in the frying pan if that's all you had James, there were no weapons it's just, are you going to choose to be a frying pan?

55:26I fucking die if you need to. And then Zebby, a guy that I knew, a Rasta guy I knew, was in for a contract killing, called me Scotty Soldier, gave us a cuddle, but he's looked over my shoulder and went, what the fuck, bacon under the grill. So I told him I'd wash it. I said, look, that's how I'll wash it. No, you can't wash it, you've used bacon and fucking, you just can't wash it for. I thought, not a problem, I'll go down and ask for a new one. And he went, no. I said yeah I'll go down get a new one he went no there's a screw in there called Markham he used to do a bit of training but I think he took me a story steroids because he was he was puffed out and he was always fucking he was always a try to show off to one of the female screws in the young blonde thing she was tidy right enough but he was like big Charlie potato in the castle I've seen a few screws like that they don't intimidate me James I just want to grow up and I'd sort of get the boys back but he's sitting at his desk with two minders so I've come walking down he obviously knew who I was they didn't get intelligence reports so they're familiar they get showed photographs so they recognise you on the wing so I went over and said to him excuse me sir and he's went yes Ferris so he knew right away yes Ferris how can we help you I said I'd like to get a new girl pan he really sat back and folded his arms he thought I'm asking for a new grill pan for me I'm the big gangster in the jail he said what's wrong with it I said it's unclean never told him anything because you can't tell the story James because it's a racial thing right I said it's unclean he said it's unclean I said why don't you clean it I said why don't you just get the fucking grill pan because they'll be in the storeroom in a box, take it up, put a screw in it and then put the handle back on And he's going, what if I don't?

57:19And I say, all right, bang. So I've hurt the riot bill. The reason why I've hurt the riot bill is because somebody more senior rank than him, like a governor, is going to come onto the wing to say what happened. So anyway, I get ruffled, threw into the cell, and I think, oh, I'm not even in the fucking jail in a hour. I've not even got my breakfast yet, really, on my food. Short time later, door opens. everybody's locked up door opens the screw in Alsatian the other ones with fucking plastic shields some that he judged red looking in and all of a sudden the shields part like the fucking the Red Sea and this governor appears right Ferris what's the problem that says they're none What did you hit the right bell for?

58:07I said because that guy over there, the senior officer Markham, whatever his domestic problems is, he shouldn't bring it into prison. He's got a terrible attitude and if he spoke to me like that outside I'd have smacked him right over the fucking head with a frying pan. He says, what about the frying pan? And I said, I never got a chance to explain to him. I went into the wrong kitchen. I've grilled some bacon in a Rastafarian kitchen. Told him I'd clean it. And they said, no, it's unclean fault. I'd like a new one. I said, so I'm either going to get a new one or I'm going to have to be rolling about with these yardies.

58:45And he said, is it that serious? I went, it's only a grill pan. You must have stuff in the store. He said, so forget your grill pan. Is that how it finished? get him on a grill pan short the door so that was a bit of a bust his bubble that one, so I go to the grill pan gave him it back and walking along the landing to the Michael Jordan basketball player stepped on and went the boss wants to see the head of the yard and I thought yeah here we go so it's a cell with the curtains shut and it's a big glow like that, it's a cone full of weed right and then he's going up and the whole cell's lighting up not lighting up but it's noticeable about a Bob Marley in the background and he's going you know Zevi I went you know Zevi he's like thanks for the grill fan I'm smoking stone and I had a puffer of oil I was fucking rocking I was gunk I kept my food for later on but munchies munchies I went back into the kitchen I got my kitchen right man I'm telling people the story they're going off they all loved it because they hated this Markham he was a bit of a bully so I ended up made my peace with them and then they called us out to get on to the medical wing for no other reason James I had psoriasis I need to get on and get my creams so at this occasion Grant Turnbull he had HIV at the time and was on his medication he was always up and done and a strange thing happened where he was in the waiting room excuse me he was in the waiting room and he said, Paul, watch this.

1:00:24He shouted in Harold Shipman. Harold Shipman's, the mass fucking doctor, crackfork fucking killed everybody, is in the hospital wing and what separates the cell that we're in and the medical unit and the hospital wing is just a courtyard, just a garden where they go and sit. But Grant's shouting through the windows to him. what medication should I get? So Grant's got a fucking pen and piece of paper. Getting diagnosed with this crackpot, you wouldn't be trusting him telling you what medication you get. But the funny story was, it shouldn't have been getting moved because Grant Turnbulls went in and told the doctor what he should be getting.

1:01:06And the doctor's thinking, who the fuck's talking to him? Because they give you non-expensive medication and the famous one in Berlin, was all three it didn't matter what was running with your leg hanging off somebody big scared smashed the bits all three paracetamol on your way so Grant's asking for specific medication so shipment got moved so that's the kind of they were separated they were in the non-swing what was it like being stone Paul on the green in the jail we know paranoid as fuck no it was just one of the ones I thought it's a fucking five star hotel you've got your cooking facilities and a strange thing happened as well in my first day they gave me an application form to fill in to go back and spend the rest of my time in the Scottish prison I've been in the Scottish prison James what I've recognised English prison is I've looked at the canteen list and I thought after the three pages it's all spices and rice and whatever else and then you get a meat section, they go to Vouchers, buy all your stuff.

1:02:18What? You don't need to eat prison food, you cook your own stuff. And what you go in there is, you're allowed £30 out of your private cash. And then if you had a decent job, which I ended up getting, you get another £15. So you're getting£45 a week to shop. So you're buying, we had a fridge, we had one of the deep freezers that was full with chicken breasts, fish. Was that to keep you happy? I think I think it's because you're in a long-term prison. They want to kind of make yourself sufficient. It's a luxury. The more they get you, the more you're going to lose. So if somebody kicks off, there's three standards.

1:03:00There's an enhanced where you get£30. There's a standard where you get, I don't know, you get£30, you get something. And basic is just basically you get fuck all. You don't even get enough for tobacco. So this one, it's an incentive to keep your head down and go on there. And I ended up, that's where I learned to cook. There was Chinese people in there, drug smugglers, Asian guys. And their mums taught them how to cook, and they're teaching me how to cook. So for long, I'm wrapping up fucking Chinese curries, kebabs. And then you cut the Irish boys in there, I was making the pachin. And then you've got a fridge freezer, you've got ice cubes.

1:03:40It was pachin. Pachin was what they used to do. This was ingenious, right? They had to use a mixture of rice and potato. And the triangle of the pool table and the snooker table always went missing. And you were allowed an iron in your cell if you were having a visit or you were ironing your clothes. And the pots for the kitchen. So what they'd done with the triangle was put the iron inverted upside down in the triangle. and then put the pot on top of the iron that heats the pot up, that heats the water up. And over a weekend, they used to tape all their doors so they smelled when they got out.

1:04:23And over a weekend, they'd probably get about two litres of pachin. And there was a straw, a tube that comes out of the pot that goes into a plastic bag that's the shape of a diamond. And in the bottom of the bag, it just drips. So the condensation, they're taking all the alcohol out. that's he fucking dynamite that stuff no blow you he does so there was another part of mine I go to meet Kevin Lane Catwalk Kevin was called right he's family brilliant guy he would have been a champion boxer but he got fitted up for a contract killing and he came in one day and he's went Faw how you doing my name's Kevin I went how you doing Kevin he's went that one is jelly night and that one is dynamite you get any trouble when you let me know and I thought I said how do you know he's went words have been set up Arthur Sutton Joey Pyle stuff out his sock there's fucking tobacco phone cards puff and then he said what are you doing Friday I thought my day on Friday I said what are you doing Friday you're in doing a terror now honestly he was funny as fuck Kevin I said what am I doing Friday what are you doing Friday going to the pub I ain't going to the pub I said what pub he's went mine in the cell so he'd shut the curtains out Kevin does his karaoke but he's a good boxer not that good at singing after the pachini sounded alright so what you'd get is clear bottles like that full of pachini and then somebody would be sent up to get with fresh orange and then with ice cubes and just sitting fucking puffing and having a drink and then eating so you work your day round you get your job done you go and do your education you get your classes done down to the gymnasium and then Sunday was usually a lion a long lion so when I say how good it was you're still in prison you've still got your family leaving the table but a lot of fucking madness oh aye aye aye trying to make the most of a bad decision so when you go out then after your 10 your last sentence was that Durham?

1:06:33no no this is all the same this is the same when I go out there was a spurious fucking claim that McGraw had stabbed me or I'd been stabbed during the thing and I get recalled for it or the rest of it it's supposed to be a shipment of fucking puff nonsense police intelligence reports Do you get a recall for that? No I get recalled, I get told by the social services that was, my licence is now revoked meant I'm back on catty which means I'm a danger to the public. And I know what was happening, James. All they could do in Stavclyde is arrest me and take me all the way done. I didn't think I'd make that journey because you might get banged on the basis that they're saying you try to escape.

1:07:19So I decided I'll go and hand myself working. And it was a good idea. I got the guy who'd done the serialisation for the book, David Leslie from News of the World, Brian Anderson, the photographer. So that was my witnesses to make sure I get back done and hand myself in to Durham, which is quite funny because I'd never been in Durham. There's a local cop station. So we arrived in Durham and we asked for directions. So I've got, no, it's not suited up. I'm smart enough. I've got my holder and we're directed to this police station. What turns out not to be a police station. It's a police academy where I've gone to hand myself in.

1:08:03And as we're driving in a minibus, a young people's come in and out, and there was an older screw there who looked at me and went, ah, in a jaw-dead accent, why, son, you just missed him. They're away in the train. He thought it was a fucking recruit to get into the training college. And he's buzzed the door open. And I was going up these stairs, and there's a big massive poster about be vigilant, be aware, terrorism is everywhere. And I thought, I think we're in the wrong place. And we're walking up into these big banqueting halls and seeing cabinets full of silverware trophies and photographs.

1:08:38And I thought, no, we're in the wrong place. Just looking for a charge desk. And as we came out, I was like, where the fuck is this? And the same screw had said, you lost son? I went, where is it you want to go? I said, to hand myself in. She said, what for? And I've told him. So next thing, he's holding his earpiece and he's come out and went, put your hold on in the middle of the car park and put your hands behind your head and step back and I thought I'm a danger now before it was licking me in everywhere so they've all swooped in got us and took us to the right cop so this time and they're all laughing and I remember there's an inner courtyard in there so I'm out getting a bit of exercise and there's a screw came up and went do you want some of your cigarettes out and I thought what a changing attitude normally you get fuck all in Scotland you're part of your abuse so I went what he said can I ask you a question I went depends he said how far did you get in the training college and I told him I go to the banqueting suite and all the trophies he went he's run away and told where I got and it was a bit of a scandal because it breached all their security so from there I ended up next day, oh no within a couple of hours, licence revoked took to Durham another shithole probably worse than Birlini again right down the seg because they don't hold catty prisoners and I was offered an inducement and they said to us look we don't want to keep you in the seg you've done most of your sentence, you're on a recall there's a Scottish boy up there with a TV in his cell, would you want to go and get banged up with him?

1:10:24I went, is that a coloured one? He said, of course it is, I'll go so I get banged up, get access to coloured TV, you guy with he was mad ranger supporter he knew all the crowd that I didn't he got on me it was a truce there was nothing happening he was doing time for important cannabis and I remember the priest coming in and got a set of rosary beads it was like the exorcist fucking rosary beads you're fiending a bit of banter and all of a sudden I get moved one day while he's at work and I put the rosary beads on his pillow I sent him a letter and I got word but I fucking found him after that so so aye it was Durham was not as bad as Pentonville not as bad as Villaney either but it was a show so going through all that then Paul I even know you spoke in the first podcast about the coppers trying to set up and kill you you just mentioned it there again was it always in the back of your mind that they were going to put one in your nut?

1:11:33I've experienced it personally on my own in Rossi 1984 when they kicked the door in there was three of them that was armed turns out only two of them should have been armed so if they're three guns I'm quite aware you'll remember having any guns at the point the one's going to get used on you in bin I think so I think so aye especially in the nature professionally done I'm not criticising anything that happened but going out into the hallway hands out stretch to identify fire, I've not got any weapons. Boom, right up in the air, face done, left-hand side of the face done on the floor. This one's kneeling in my back, pushing the gun in.

1:12:10So I can see him. I can look that way. Six feet two, snow white hair, George Dixon, his name was, and he put the gun in the back of my head and said, words to their fit, you know what this is, you little bastard, you're going to get it. And as he said that, my partner at the time, Ann Marie, let out a massive scream. They never knew there was a female in the house. That kind of saved me I think and then it was paranoid with me thinking well what else are you going to think James if that's happening to you right so then when Russell Sturland told me about the approach that's been done to him as much as I didn't want to believe it it was just I'm on red alert I'm ready for anything anything at all driving about with fucking guns and I'm thinking if they try it I'm going to give it to them first do you think the hash played a part in that as well about the paranoia?

1:13:01No, no, I never smoked, I never smoked, never took nothing, I was just on red alert, nothing. The only thing I did probably take is a bit of speed, just to make sure I'm fucking, I'm on alert. Do you buzz with your tits, man? No, I was just, I know what I've got to do, I've got money to go and collect, I've got to go and do my business, but I'm aware it would lie what would happen. And then I, everything now changed, James, when I got remanded in Berlinny for that, that particular case. And then you get the transcripts of the audio tapes that I'd done and Russell Sturton had done. More importantly, one Russell Sturton had done.

1:13:36He took out a visor out of his car, cut the padding out of it and put a secret tape recording on it. I think Russell had already threatened the cops at some stage anyway, so they wanted to speak to him. And ironically, what happened was it was a cop called Eric Mitchell, Detective Sergeant in Bird Street, that pulled Russell over. And Russell never got out of his car, just put the window down in this car. leaning in, just talking to this. And this is what he said to him. Stop threatening police officers, Russell, because your wee pal Paul tried it once. I can tell you here now, he was nearly wasted.

1:14:14He was nearly for a walk away up in the campuses one night and was never near gone. And if I think you're serious about threatening Paul's son, you'll just be going a night fishing trip and won't be coming back either. So Russell knows he's wired up. He just laughs and goes, I would like that. Now there I've got an audio tape, not me, I might be accused of a lot of things, I ain't a fucking ventriloquist so when I'm on remand and I get to this I'm actually reading a magazine and it's not a porn magazine, it's a magazine I did read porn magazines, I was wrong but this occasion I'm reading this thing about biometrics and it's to deal with access control went to NASA where they're doing away with cards and IDs and the things you've got to take to work is your hands and your eyes and your voice so there's three levels to get on so certain employees use their voice everybody uses their voice to get in the second one is the palm scanner and then the third one is your voice your iris and your palm scanner and i focused on the voice the voice you can get a voice graph analyst test done because everybody's got a voice indistinguishable like a fingerprint and i was wanting this audio tape a serving police officer checked to make sure it is him.

1:15:28And they didn't deny it. And we were teed up for getting an American expert in on the voice graph analyst. And he admitted in court that it was his voice. But he also said, and dismissed the whole cross-examination for Donald Finney, looked right at the jury and said, ladies and gentlemen, jury, when you're dealing with severe criminals like him, the police used a procedure called bluff and counter bluff I was only kidding now I didn't know whether to fall out the dock or stand up and clap that was a good fair play and we blagged it but the serious thing about it is see if there's no training course in Tully Island that deals with bluff and counter bluff not only is he committed perjury the threats were real so that ended the paranoia so you do think that they were out to kill you yeah without a doubt Do you think they've got that pause that way they did then?

1:16:26The elites? We've done it for. Aye. We've done it for. Scary that, isn't it? It is, but it's an occupational hazard. Don't be going out and doing what you're doing and don't expect them to treat you with kids. Part and parcel of the game, do you think? It is part and parcel of the game. So when you got out in 2002, how have you managed a man with your reputation to stay out the last 18 years? Was there a time you'd realised it's not for me anymore? I did. It was very early on and it was in the Belmarsh when I was unaware that I was under investigation with MI5 and security services, or a list of other agents.

1:17:02And it's only when I got my productions, your case file from a solicitor, I've looked through it, seen all the surveillance reports. And these witnesses never had names. It was witness A. And I had the whole fucking alpha bit near enough. Witness A, 23 years, security service, bum bum bum so I became aware that when you come to the attention to the level of these sort of people you're either going to give it up or you're going away for a long long time so that was my motivation to look at and go you never thought you come to the attention of these people I'm going to get my head down I'm going to get on my sentence so when I get released on the 21st of January in 2002 I was met outside with Reg Mackay because we'd wrote the book by that time but equally there was maybe half a dozen reporters and I told them I was going straight.

1:17:56They want an interview and I said, I can't, I've got to go back to Glasgow and see my social worker. I've got a time scale, I need to go and do this. People laughed, he's going straight, let me can't change his spots and all the rest of it. First and foremost, I ain't a leopard and I ain't got spots. So it was a commitment to me and my family and my friends that stood by me. And more importantly, Reg. Reg gave me that belief and myself that he believed that I tended to do it and I did that. Just fortunate Reg wasn't here to see the whole show but if it wasn't for Reg I wouldn't be sitting here with you, didn't I?

1:18:30Do you miss him, Paul? I missed, he was normally my partner in crime writing he was my mentor he was my previous social worker a good friend and somebody who was very out we called him the champion of lost causes because he always used to take people on and it was just kind of fun and he would take them on and give them a bit of self esteem back give them a bit of faith back in the system or whatever it is but he was quite a controversial figure and out of all the books that he wrote and things that he'd done he was never credited because they say that he went native he went too much with me when he never he went professionally on what he believed in they didn't like me James and I don't like them either.

1:19:16So it was one of those situations where Reg kind of rocked the boat as far as establishment is concerned. He's now writing books about corruption. And it's something which they see potential jurors reading stuff like that and going, whoa, and maybe sitting at a trial fellow down the line going, I read that book. This is what they really fucking did. Gone's the day that they get into witness boxes with their uniforms and their medallions and that they're taken as face value as a respectable witness. It's all about what can you prove and fortunately for me, I've been very lucky knowing the system for a young age, having the right legal team and I've just exposed them continuously time after time after time and I'll still do it.

1:20:05You become a fawn on the side pole? No, a big jaggy nettle bush, a big tumbleweed, going like, oh, that's him again. so aye aye and I if they were doing the job they'd get paid today that's fair enough they went out with a remit they supplied me with drugs so therefore they're a drug dealer don't think you can do something like that and then jump behind a warrant card and a uniform and say aha no you've gave that up you became a drug dealer you became a gangster with guns that's how I viewed it I threatened them but I never threatened a cop I threatened somebody who was acting a gangster your biggest rivalry Paul was Tam McGraw, your biggest rivalry in Glasgow between you and two at one point how did that start?

1:20:52there was no real rivalry I knew but Tam McGraw before I met him, I knew he was a grass before I met him and I knew I had to be careful with saying anything about him so an adversary no for that start, no even for I met him might have had a lot of money but you take away some of the stuff that he'd been involved in, like the Doyle murders. Two innocent guys, several innocent people getting convicted. Tommy Campbell ended up being related to me, married my cousin. And I always felt a rerun, that misfortune, a big fucking lump of a guy like Tommy going on hunger strike, going down to Seven Stone to prove his innocence.

1:21:37Fighting his corner all the way, and then you get this slippery bastard, my girl, the fucking snake I called him and I tried to say it in one word and I couldn't say it in one word so I'll repeat it again, he's a fucking snake and people now know what he's done and so did the coppers very early on, know what he's done so you can't have a drugs war on ice cream fans when it was fuck all the day with drugs it was the day with ice cream fans it was to stop people doing the runs and it was a personal dispute so the rivalry with my girl we knew what he was all about, he was a dog and it was just one of these things where newspapers play up to it.

1:22:13Mr Big this, Mr Big that. We only tolerated him because he had a fucking pub. That was all that. Joe Hanlon was working with him. So, and I moved into an area thinking I was going to wait for the D Division. I ended up going for a frying pan right into the fucking fire. But apparently mine at Tam Bagan at the time, he made sure I was all right. I'll not forget Tam for that. And I was all, so So, Tam doesn't like getting mentioned and things like that. But I've got to mention this and wish her well and good luck. So the papers blew it up because I've had Joe Steele and TCO and they spent over 20 years in prison for a crime they didn't commit.

1:22:55Seen loved ones dying while in prison. On that aspect, James, I know, I've seen your podcast, right? You think of the police intelligence gathering. Do you think they never knew? They never done it. Of course they did. Of course they did, aye. But it went against how they teed up their crown witness, Billy Love, that all of a sudden was on remand for a robbery and they accepted the fact that he'd been identified as a fucking robber and now all of a sudden he couldn't have been on the robbery because he's sitting in the barge pub listening to Tommy Camill talking about lighting the fire. So they knew.

1:23:31They knew. They twisted it. Big case, man. that all these years on, the Doyle family still having to get any closure as well? James, it's one of the situations where Tommy Campbell and Joe Steele always maintained their integrity all the way through it, because it wasn't for them to point fingers to people and say, I never done it, they fucking done it. I don't know if I could do it. I don't know if I'd let them walk about, to be honest with you, but he did. He was a... I know I keep going on, but he's not here now anyway. That shows you the strength of Joe, Joe and TC two strong men it shows you the hold that McGraw had over his cotters because they couldn't let him talk because it was going to expose all the rest of them for fatting up Joe Joe Steele and Tommy and Big Tamby and all the rest of them Joe Granger a lot of people were unnecessarily put through the mill with that one and it's bad enough going to prison for something that you've done I've never been to prison for something I've never done I'd like to make that clear as well but I don't know if I'd have been able to go to prison for something I didn't do.

1:24:37It's a different ball game. I would have got involved in something. I don't think I'd have got out, James. It's quite obvious I don't. I'd have probably done something going to court and said, yeah, I've done that, but I've never done this. That's the mentality they push you into. The first podcast you were on, Tommy Robinson got a mention. You want me to mention him again? It blew up. No, it blew up and if I'm honest, man, I was just starting off. I probably had the wooden spoon out because he mentioned it. There was nothing in it? You never mentioned anything. No, it was true. It was blown out of proportion.

1:25:08But to clarify it, I've got Neil Will against Tommy Robinson. If he wanted to be running about waving Nazi flags and being more English than the English really wanted to be, and then getting photographs taken with the Israeli Defence Force and big tanks, I don't know where his head's at. But he's obviously wanted to do something. It's not for me. I don't know him well enough, but what a can criticise him for was a video that he'd done saying I'd been involved in several murders. Who is he? Trying to make light of it. And it turns out my only view was he keeps that up, his security will need security.

1:25:48And that was a throwaway comment. And it ended up people contacting me saying, Paul, his security's freaking out. Is there something going to happen to him? I went, no, it was just a throwaway comment. What was it about? I said, it was just a throwaway comment on a fucking podcast. It was nothing. It was nothing. I'll tell you which it was, James. He travelled all the way from England up to a cost of politics. I'm not into politics. I'm not defending a politician. What I couldn't get my head round is he never had the arsehole to go to Westminster to wait and John Bercow coming out because he said the exact same thing.

1:26:21Saved all the train fares or how he got up. Maybe he's friendly Israelis paid for his transport. I don't know. But he's got somebody on his doorstep that he could have went and he decided to go and get somebody coming out of the library or something like that. And I cost him. He's a bully and that's what I said, that I was an antidote for the bullying. And if he's listening to this one, it wasn't he meant like that. But it wasn't he. You'd asked for a debate and it's when people have jumped on it. It's got national. He turned into a big girl's blouse and he goes, he's a cousin to us. That's awful.

1:26:57I probably had the with and spoon it because I'm thinking it's just creating more traffic towards my channel James it's your podcast you've got every right to ask other relevant questions yeah Gailman's due but he came on the podcast after it and told his story it's fair play everybody's entitled to their views of course and their voice but I think he jumped on the back anyway it's done now yeah of course people move on and there's no ill will Tommy go and do your thing who was the maddest person you ever came across in your life in prison outside there's a few there's a few I'll give you an example.

1:27:37James McLean, we never knew how severe his deterioration and his mental health was good. We should have, and it's a funny story this one, but it's not something to belittle somebody that had a mental illness. But we were asked to go and collect some money off an individual who owned a whole chain of aquariums selling tropical fish, if I believe it or not. And some of these fish was like 1 ,500 quid and different things like that. And the whole rule of thumb was something like that. You get back and you catch somebody off guard and tell them what they're driving, where they stay, where they go.

1:28:25It's just to unsettle them and they say, you owe this money, first of all you've got to establish that they own the money, secondly before you go anyway you've got to make sure they've got the money before you ask them. So James went with one of our guys, another field agent and when I got told the story when he came back I thought, unbelievable, this guy's got the owner of the aquarium shop and he's told them where he lives, where he's driving, he's not moving James for the money, he's denying, not denying the money, he's just saying he's not going. it wasn't a chart until James were interjected and said to him listen you, you fucker if you don't get this money, the fish are getting it the guy crumbled went and took the money out and fucking paid for it so there is a weak spot there he's more interested in his fish than life and limb so James was Neely was another one Neely a famous one for breaking into somebody's car taking a spark plug and putting it right in a plastic bag full of petrol and taping it up so when they jump into the car I've seen when the bonnet of this car went about fucking 200 yards right into the crowd there is a lot of strange people maybe I've called one myself it takes one to know one I don't know what to say it takes one to know one but there is a lot but again these things happen people talk about serious and organised crime the truth of it is it is serious but there's not a lot of organisation in it sometimes it's the newspapers that jazz it up and it's probably the only time I'll probably agree with a police statement I think it was Mr Warbler Guam Pearson that said there's no such thing as organised crime as disorganised he is right to an extent because you have certain elements certain groups of people that are associated through geography, areas where they come from, maybe football teams.

1:30:31And it's not like the mafia. Mafia is serious organised crime. They penetrated the judicial system, the banks, and you know that was serious and organised crime. So you import the words like godfather, gangmaster, all the rest of it. It's just a play on it. Clickbaiting it. Well, it's to pad out a story for them. Makes it a bit more romantic. your pals were Rab Crillers who was very well respected in Glasgow Manchester a boy for his streets and then went down and ran Manchester how did that relationship you and well I know his brother Jim from Short's prison and there was one occasion where Jim was going away to his villa in Spain and asked me if I would go down and see Rab Rab was wanting to meet me and I was wanting to meet Rab and I I did.

1:31:23I intended to get in for the weekend. And normally I used to drink a couple of beers, maybe a few lines of Charlie, if you get too drunk. And what I remember about Rabds was he had this big goldfish full and with rubber hoses coming at it. Like a bum. But I thought it was crack that they're smoking on it. Turns out it's free base cocaine. Tried it myself. and I stayed there for fucking three months. It's the longest time ever. But with Rab, I soon found out Rab had the biggest and best gun collection I've ever fucking seen. I can talk about it now. Rab, God rest him, is no longer here. And I want to address some of the situations because when he died, there was a lot of newspaper articles about good riddance to bad rubbish and unnecessary.

1:32:15He's got family. He's done his time. He's done what he's done. But the funniest thing, But Rab is nuts. Rab is absolute crackers. And one of the things was he always liked Magnum ice creams. He had a heroin habit, cocaine habit. Never ever bought drugs. He's always had them run about them. But that combination and the guns. There was one time where I was in his house and he got one delivered. And he opened the box. He said, what do you think of that one? I've looked at 9mm silencer, subsonic ammunition, and his phone needs to go to the shops, right? So I'm sitting in the house going, oh, fuck this.

1:33:00Put the silencer on, put the rounds in the clip. Got a phone directory, put it on the stairs and went, oh, you have a... That was annoying, and I thought, checked the phone directory right through it, so I put yellow pages and a couple of books. I'd maybe done about three or four shots before Rav came in. And anybody that's fired a gun in the house, they know they can smell the cordite. So Rab's going, what have you done? I'm like, that's about your fucking tool, that Rab. And I showed him the phone directory, yellow pages in the books. And he went, where did you aim it? I went, on the stairs.

1:33:36The shock on his face, I thought, it's as though he pulled the gun out on him. And I discovered that he had his lucky three-quarter lens trench coat leather on for the gang days in Poso that he had under the stairs and he took it there's three shots and he's got out of his finger I've had that since 74 were you mad when you were shooting the gun? no I should have been mad no that was the rule we did not take it too often during the day until maybe Friday one o 'clock how hard is it Paul to see pals who you loved and adored and respected to see them deteriorating through drugs in their later life?

1:34:20Well, going back to the early prison sentences, I don't know if I'd have been caught up on it, James. There's a good chance I would have been. But I missed it all for the young offenders. And when I came out, some of my friends had been on heroin, jellies, alcohol. They became untrustworthy. But I never noticed that. I still had their... They physically changed. The weight loss and that voice that they've got, sandpaper. So they became characterised. And we did try to help a few, but they didn't want to help myself. They just got into so much of a rut that the help would have been there if it was needed.

1:35:04And what we always found is there's no point in getting no fucking money. So we used to take them out into return, track suits, trainers, and then after a while, they fucking sell them, James, they go back up and take them off, just put them in the bag, keep the receipt in case, it's sad, it's sad, but again, it's their choice, it's their life. How was it then, coming out and totally trying to go straight, do you still feel as if you've got a magnifying glass on you? No, funny enough, when you're in custody for a while, there's nothing changes in prison, prison's prison, conditions might change, but environment out here and different eras change and I remember vividly the early 80s the music at that time was like Pink Floyd, Dire Straits and then it picked up after the sentence in 1990 with Nearly the Bomb and his brother with this fucking music going boom, boom, boom the speakers motor all fucking well and I'm going what the fuck is that that's the new music and then you end up in a private party Blink was there and he was the first guy to give us an ecstasy and I thought take drugs I said fuck I ain't taking drugs but it's a different kind of drug so I'm doing the course and I see people enjoying themselves and I think have you still got that I said he's half it up so I was off to it half it I'm tapping my feet and I'm on it and I was like where's the other half so up was my fucking introduction and then all of a sudden it just took off it's mad to think and see you puffing our own green man if I was to smoke a joint with you I would be I'd trip balls I'm tripping my mind goes overdrive I've had plenty of experience because I used to experiment with LSD but only I could find it I never took LSD but somebody had claimed that we took LSD in a nightclub fucking never happened in a nightclub no chance what about ayahuasca Paul do you know what I would be up for it James because we've spoken about you coming to date with me but it's the same thing again James it needs to be in a controlled environment because I've been on the wild child with Aldous Huxley the Doors of Perception I replicated one of his experiments when I was in shorts and ended up with a big mural that I drew on the wall it was like a caveman painting it looked alright until the next morning what the fuck is that do you think you would do it then LSD there's something in LSD that expands the mind for the mind MDMA as well Paul and we speak quite frequently now over the last year or two and obviously I've got to get a bit of more understanding about you and we spoke about the Ayala I think it'd be a fascinating thing I would be up for it purely as another experiment I took drugs experimentally some and I self-medicate always self-medicate other people take their medication maybe too often or too much but it's fine in your level but not to be dependent but you always need that when you get to that edge and everybody knows when they're getting to that edge, bang where's the parachute because you can't go through a lifetime of things I've been through and know realise that you know get fucking mental health issues, everybody's got mental health issues, just some have got them greater than others.

1:38:37Some people know how to put the brakes on mentally, some people don't. Substance abuse, that's what I like to call it. It's a word. I don't like having somebody that they want to call a smack head or a coke head or a fucking alky. It's derogatory words. You're putting people back into a box by saying that. So substance abuse, aye, it's all to do with different substances. Even prescriptions drugs. You know, somebody might have prescription, an addiction to prescription drugs and alcohol. It's a whole wide diverse, and what I've found out with the younger crews is, because I talk to them, and they talk to me, because they know I'm no involving authority, they know I'm, I used to be one of them.

1:39:21And I discovered what a dunt is, and I said to them, can you explain that to me again? Right, we take my dog 50-50, we have a couple of joints, a couple of sleepers, and a couple of offers. and maybe a batter Charlie I went what on in one go huh what did you do that for it's some dunt so that's what I done they take it to the extremes and the heavy and the ecstasy fuck it's like a big catalogue that's a cocktail of fucking madness that man but I think that's the problem where the younger ones they don't really realise what they're taking there's been a few deaths involved and I think it's just they've took a risk and they've been ignorant and I think maybe parents that don't know about substance abuse maybe want to learn I'm hoping to get involved in some of the course material and doing that again I'm looking to get involved in youth justice purely on the basis that I want to be a Reg Mackay type figure that was there for the lost causes but I'm not standing for any bullshit James if they people want to help themselves then aye I'll help them until they don't want to help themselves and give them an incentive to go and do it if I can do it they can do it I'm not a different fan everybody needs a hand but again you've got to want that hand.

1:40:35You need to want to do the change. Well, there's two key elements to it. First and foremost is you need to find out that they want to help themselves. That gives you that time, you're no wasting your time. You're no bringing academics or professionals in that you're no wasting their time. Another thing about it is to help them constructively explain it. They might not be good at reading and writing. Their literacy and their numeracy might be affected as well as their communication skills. So the second pillar of what we're trying to do is to form a respect contract between them and whoever comes in here.

1:41:12Not to swear, not to go for your head, not to be violent towards them, because these young guys and young women are volatile and you need a safe environment. So if you're setting the standard for them, do you want to help yourself? We'll help you. If we help you, you need to respect us and the people that are coming in. Because not everybody's from my lifestyle change, but you've got professional counsellors, academics, other people want to help to change. So there is an infrastructure there. Definitely. And there's so much related to addiction, Paul, whether it's trauma or something, it's triggered something.

1:41:47There's so much more to it than having addiction. If you look at the same elements, we've all got DNA, we've all got different fingerprints, we've all got different voices, so we've all got different problems. okay one size then they fit oh but you can reasonably turn running and say well there's an issue here there's an issue with self control and self belief a lot of people when they take whatever substance it is they lose themselves they forget who they are and in reality when it comes in and they try to stop the worst thing probably people could do is go cold turkey and stop it that's not the right thing that's hardcore stuff that's what you get in prison right in a prison cell bang door lock you do more damage to them than anything else so there's a slow progression in which there's a need to ground them back to reality because there's an escapism for it people don't like to see reality they like to get drunk they like to get stoned they like to and that's not just on a Friday and Saturday that's just that's before they want to open the door what do you think for when you grew up as a boy in the streets to where the young boys are now Do you think it's changed?

1:42:57And it's probably totally different, again, James, when my dad was there. It's evolving and people say, ah, the young crews just now want to let the crews back in. They said the exact same about us when we were younger. The older crews were saying, ah, it wasn't like us way back in the day. So how far do you take it back? You take it back on the basis of, see if you take it back 50 years, look at the technology that you've got right now doing this interview to what they had done. the advancement of social skills and interacting with people conversation is gone too many there's a lost generation with computer games they're still mentally teenagers because they've no evolved their social skills because they're never out the fucking house they're vampires I used to say to some of them during the day sat on your shoulder smoke coming off you what do you mean you're a vampire I'll see you at night.

1:43:55I'll figure it out with this game. It's not that somebody switched it off. So there is a gaming addiction. There's a lot of people, the parents don't know how to handle it. Luckily, I had a gaming addiction. I used to play the kids' games first to make sure they won the block. They'd be like, give us a shot, give us a shot. So I went through most of it. So I bring to the table life experiences. And other people who I'm trying to weave into the programme have got academic experience. They've took the time and effort to go and get their accreditations through universities. So hopefully there's a happy marriage for that one because I always give an example and ask somebody, when would be the first time that they can recollect the country and what part they would remember for the country.

1:44:45Normally it's usually the smell. you try and read a smell in a book, you can't do it you can read the words about it, you can describe it but you need to smell it and it's the same thing about life you need to smell the reality before you can read them about it so that's why I like doing the books and doing it in a daily interview with James it's hopefully educational for other people I'm not certain blonde man Trump but it's just one of these things where people are either going to like it or they don't like it but I wouldn't want to waste an opportunity that I think I've got young kids and I hope that when they grow up they'll see me for what I'm on what I'm doing and it's because I want to do it I'm not trying to look good I'm not trying to do nothing if they didn't like the passion I wouldn't do it the same with your interviews James for anybody that's going through the struggle with a new Paul maybe in the jail just coming out struggling with addictions maybe I want to look at the life of crime and think I want to be a gangster, what advice would you give for them?

1:45:48Well, they're going to end up spending the best part of their lifetime in prison. If they're lucky, they're going to end up dead or they're going to end up seeing their friends dead. They're going to put their own family through the mill. I've done it. I know exactly what it is. It's good when you get the money, James, but again, you're going back to when you're sitting in the prison at your table and your family walk away from you, it doesn't matter how much money you put on the table, you can't buy that back. It hits you. So the longer you're away, your family deteriorates. It's a bit like somebody having a job four weeks off, four weeks on.

1:46:27The relationship becomes not so much toxic, it's just the feelings get numb. For them, they want to start out on a life of crime. It's a choice that they've got to make. And I'm not saying they're wrong. and I'm not saying they're right and doing it because I've got naked trail over their thought process but what they should think about is the enhanced thinking skills as your aims, your goals and your objectives, where you are right now and where you want to be in life and if people look beyond the hardships and that is difficult, people automatically need funds to get their food, pay your utility bills, fuel in the car.

1:47:13Everyone's got responsibilities. Everybody's got that responsibility. Some go greater than others. But I've got family members that have said to me, I'd rather just work, Paul. I'm happy the job I am doing. Five days a week, sometimes a day, six days a week. I couldn't live the life that you've lived. And I'd say the exact same to them. I couldn't do what you'd be doing. so it's a personal choice and hopefully when somebody says to you don't go near that fire you're going to burn your fingers or if you're turning around having a conversation to it you're going to burn your arse so that's what crimes are about and if you want to keep standing there and burning your arse then there's something wrong with you if you want to keep going to prison which I had done revolving doors there must be something wrong you're either no very good at it which is a fact or you're just being unlucky but I don't it was an occupational hazard my job was being a criminal that's what I was that's what I gave up and that's what I'm going straight now a lot of people say you're their uncle cousin have you ever had any trouble people phoning you no I don't mind it James and I'll draw a line at it if somebody wants to use me to get out of your situation or to prevent any violence I'm cool with it I don't worry about it so you've got the green light of half the nation No, I wouldn't agree with somebody using my name to force something on somebody and become a bully on somebody.

1:48:43Then I would act on it. But, I mean, when I was growing up, people used to talk about Thompson, who was their great uncle and their dad they never had and all the rest of the nonsense. So if it gives somebody a bit of comfort, and it doesn't need any harm, I've not got a problem with it. How does it make you feel that so many people are so interested in your story and why they listen what you've got to say. How does that for the boy that you came through to what you're doing now? I don't really know the answer to that one, James. Does it feel strange? It feels strange, aye. You get a bit humbled with it as well.

1:49:18But there must be something there. It's not me, it's a story. It's about events that I've done in my life and how you've come through it. Maybe people can relate to it. I'm not looking for any empathy. I'm not looking for any round applause. It's just, it is what it is. So plans for the future then, Paul? listen for people watching there will be a part three the day we've just went on a different journey which I've thoroughly enjoyed I never knew that James I'm telling it as Uncle Paul back for part three going forward for the future now Paul you've done all your books you've made your film what's the plans for you you going to get another book another film part two the book I liked writing books it's it's it's merely a a therapeutic for you it has Reg called it the big fancy word cathartic for boys in the street that don't know it it means that you're doing alright for yourself you feel a bit better getting it done in pen and paper and that's what I've done I was asked to go on a scheme

1:50:21that's getting piloted and serving the prisons they're doing poems and literacy and writing about things and I've asked to comment on some of the writing skills that's good and I enjoyed doing that I did it anyway but there is young boys and young girls in these sort of establishments that can't be reading right so the minute they're asked to write something they revert into themselves so maybe there's more room for giving them an opportunity either through art and recording because what I was interested in then was getting somebody to do their video diary for one of the programs that I'm doing, nor the treatment programs.

1:51:08So in the event that if somebody's looking at the success rate, don't believe us, don't look at the papers and do what we're doing. As a data stack, go and look at the amount of people that's wanting to do their own interviews about themselves on a daily basis and how they feel that they can do it. So I'm currently working on visual projects and I've been asked to get involved in a few of them, but through a personal challenge just now with HMRC it's liable to come out in some stage or another so it might as well me mention it just now and it wasn't nice getting threatened by anybody especially government agencies like that that could have went really wrong for me and whoever wanted to come and chirp the door so I'll leave out for another interview James and anything else that can help with on that basis we're looking at getting a not so much a podcast on treatment James as to do with having a website available for somebody who's got an issue and kind of guaranteeing them a response within three years there's a guy that I'm working with just now called Mark Dempster he's been on the podcast, good big guy very funny but when people hear he's been an ex-addict he can smell the shit on the farm, he's got the finger on the pulse.

1:52:30So this is another academic that hopefully we're building things that we're going along and again you guys do some bit of work yourself to bring alternative entertainment like this because it is entertainment for people. If it wasn't entertainment you wouldn't get the viewers that you get. And it was only to thank you for your time and your hospitality again. And likewise Paul. And I never knew about the third interview but I'll be looking forward to it. there's so much we can touch on the first one was more about your life going through a lot of stuff but I think people know about that now touched on prisons today a few other wee topics but the part three I'd like to then we'll touch on the future, your plans to making change talking in prisons, making documentaries are you going near this ayahuasca treatment?

1:53:18I mean you going right on the ayahuasca if you're up for that I'll consider that just before we finish up last question Paul if the Paul of this day could speak to the Paul at 18 years old what would they tell him? Quite a lot but he wouldn't listen Aye That's fair enough Quite a lot but he wouldn't listen Hindsight's great James can back on it you could talk to yourself with hindsight but the reality is if I wasn't going to listen to my dad I certainly wouldn't listen to me but there's elements where you can look back on it and say Aye there's loads of things you could say to yourself back then Would you listen is the problem because they're not putting me identifying the threshold for treatment programmes for people who want to help themselves first if they're not prepared to listen.

1:54:02And I know back then I was not fucking for listening. And so, to give an honest opinion, probably say a lot, but whether we get in one or not the other, probably. Yeah, that's the thing about it. They don't listen. The thing about it there is, James, it's a great analogy that you put up, but I think a better analogy is you've got to respect the source before you can accept advice. And if you get somebody that you respect enough, you'll listen to them more than... It might not even be a family member. It might be somebody that... The respect's going to be gained first, James. And depending on who's saying it, it might carry a bit more weight.

1:54:41So the regression of going back to your childhood and saying, if only you'd done this, if only you'd done that, it's good to remember yourself how far you came forward. You've got the same issues growing up. I've got the same issues as you're growing up. You're into your 50th, your half percentage of your life's game. I'm into my 75th percent. And when people tend to look back and go, here's one for you. No, for the younger ones, because they can't look back 10 years. Look back 10 years, they might only be 12, might only be 11. But for somebody who's 30, to look back to when you're 21, where did that 10 years go to?

1:55:22It's fluent. so you can look and you can guarantee with all due respect that somebody's going to survive another 10 years and planning that forward leap is a bit more an incentive don't waste your time, don't rush your time, things will happen if you're prepared to do it, it's not going to happen at a toss of your coin or you wake up the next morning and wave a magic wand unfortunately it doesn't work. Patience isn't it? Patience, determination rolling your sleeves up, taking the good with the bad and hopefully working it out especially under these circumstances that I understand isolation I understand the psychological issues that will cause I've been in isolation myself but in a different way altogether but this is totally different for a lot of different reasons and hopefully people can face up to the fact that everybody's got mental health issues it's nothing to be ashamed of but a lot of people tend to hold it in and they don't know who to talk to and they don't know what to do this kind of brings it all out the internet's good for touching base I've been on Twitter for quite a bit I've actually quite liked that you've got a lot of direct messages asking and I do the exact same what you're doing in touching base so again it's to do with figures it's to do with the interest that people have got and if you can maintain somebody's interest for the benefit But again, no blowing your own trumpet or doing the big I am.

1:56:55Just telling it as it is. Because there'll be somebody out there looking for a wee bit of nugget to go, that's what I forgot about. Maybe I'm going to try this. If you don't try it, you never know. Exactly. And I think everybody has got an opportunity to build their own self-esteem back up. We've all had it. We've had ups and downs. Some people let it go too far and it's harder to get back up. but everybody's got their own character and they'll do what they want to do but they need to be shown certain things for other people's lives without the finger waving exercise and saying you should do that.

1:57:30The minute you do that people don't do that. So the determination for what you're doing James and the commitment you've got to entertaining people through your podcast is brilliant and wish you well in the future. I really appreciate that and forgive me the time again to come down and tell your story. You're doing me a turn as well but people coming on people listening I just got to keep chipping away consistency is key there's nobody in the UK who works harder than me me and Nick here puts in the graph so shout out to Nick boy we're just working mate consistency is key I don't want to keep stoking my mouth Paul because I know my demons are still there every fucking day so I need to keep churning them out and keep progressing because there's always somebody people start podcasting think it's easy it ain't easy and I'm glad they've started because then they'll know how hard I work but I believe I'm already the biggest in the UK thanks to guests like yourself and I'm only going to get bigger and better and stronger my self-belief my confidence is second to none it's untouchable well you can't generate 20 million hats James yeah you can't 25 25 you've only did 5-1 then plus here's an extra 5 we're talking over a ferry so that is what it is mate and again Paul for coming on the day brother telling your story I can't wait for a part of 3 we'll take it on a different journey but thank you brother pleasure James