My Toxic Marriage to the Wolf of Wall Street - Nadine Macaluso Tells Her Story

27:49And I want to say something that you keep talking about men being fucked up. You know, we haven't taught men that it's okay to feel. We haven't taught men that it's okay to be vulnerable. And I do think that there are a lot of very sensitive men out there that also want to be driven and successful, right? And how do they manage those two pieces? We've got to get better at that with men. Yeah. Where does that stem from? Society, what we... You know, societal expectations of what it means to be a man. You know? I mean, I just think... I feel for men in that way. What was the marriage like? What was the, when you get married?

28:27You know, it was, it had a lot of things that create a trauma bond, which is something called intermittent abuse or intermittent reinforcement, meaning there was a lot of great times where he was generous and helpful and loving and kind. And there were a lot of horrible times where he was controlling and controlling and manipulative. And that's actually what creates the bond in a trauma bond, that intermittent abuse. And that's what the marriage was like, an emotional merry-go-round. Like Stockholm Syndrome? Well, Stockholm Syndrome is similar, but Stockholm Syndrome is different because you're attaching to your abuser, but you don't know them.

29:03A trauma bond is almost worse because it starts out with promises of hope and tenderness and love. How much did the drugs play a massive effect on this anger and frustration? Yeah. Do you feel as if it would have been that character anyway, or did the drugs just make him a different? Monster? I think the drugs made him a monster. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I think he has a strong, narcissistic, grandiose character anyway, right? But I think then the drugs really took him down. Yeah, because everybody has narcissistic traits. Of course. Everybody's got them. Especially most successful people. And you know, there's all this talk about narcissism, which is just puts me over the edge because a lot of it's just not spoken about.

29:45But narcissism, as... People that have severe pathology, they have much more than narcissism. They can be Machiavellian, meaning they're highly manipulative. They can be psychopathic, meaning they're cold and callous. So narcissistic traits, yes, they can make you selfish and self-absorbed, but I think the drugs are what really drove him to lose it with me. Did you ever tell him about the drug intake? Or were you too scared? Oh, no. Oh, no, no. I'm from Brooklyn. I used to confront him about it all the time, but I think you understand this. When you're in the throes of your addiction, he couldn't hear me, and I just always believed that my love could change him.

30:31And I realized it couldn't. But how naive are you then to that? Oh, ridiculously. Yeah, I didn't know, because I didn't grow up with anybody that did drugs like that. Right? So I had no clue in my early 20s, you know, what was this, 25 years ago, nobody was even talking about all this. So I was so naive. What age did you have your first kid? 25. And how was he with the baby? Good. Did they ever try and, because kids can, kids are tough. They're fucking hard work, if we're honest, but... Especially if you're not in a good place. Yeah. But sometimes, I changed for my kids. I had to because they need a father.

31:10but it can be difficult so did he ever think okay maybe it's time to change did he ever try and change back then or was it not until later on in life no he did change he's an excellent father my children are very close with him and so what happened was different than the movie I said to him you have to get sober or else I said I'm not going to sit here and watch you kill yourself and that was when he like do my clothing and jewelry and lit them in the fire and put them on fire in the fireplace. And he was furious with me, screaming, how fucking dare you tell me? I don't even want to say it on the podcast because it's too many bad words.

31:52And then he told me that he was taking my daughter and he was whacked out of his mind on coke. And he had chartered a private plane. And I was like, no, you're not. I mean, you don't fuck with my kids. And that was when he tried to drive away with her, that scene in the movie where he drives into the wall. So that happened. But then right after that, he did get sober. So me standing up to him, and it was very violent, clearly, but he did get sober, so that was good. And what happened when you had the second? So you got two kids? Yeah, Carter. Yeah, so he was already born. Carter was born at that point, but he was a little baby.

32:33How was that when you've got two kids and you're saying they failed marriage and someone's not it's just a lost soul where you can't you know your love's not enough where they're going to change how hard is that feeling? It's terrible it's probably I'm it's probably one of the worst feelings in the world when you can't help somebody that you love see that drugs are killing them it's probably the most helpless feeling in the world and especially when you have two little children to take care of and I think they were a big part of my motivation to just be like you cannot do this anymore and also I didn't want to see him kill himself I mean he started to get into coke and then that was it how hard is that for people who's in that sort of relationship where they genuinely do love their person yeah but it's 10 20 years and low energy unfocused foggy you might be dehydrated Gatorade Zero Powders have been scientifically designed to help improve hydration balance in the body with a clinically proven electrolyte blend and no artificial colors or flavors.

33:35Great tasting hydration no matter where you're going. Shop now online or at retailers nationwide. Gatorade, hydrates better than water. Is it in you? Symptoms noted are signs of mild to moderate dehydration. Consult a healthcare professional if symptoms persist. Sierra has all the best active and outdoor brands for the super athletic stuff, Like running gear for cruising up the trail. Woo! And the super athlete-ish stuff. Like fishing gear for chilling by the creek. Nice cast. Fitness apparel to push for higher reps. You got this! And golf balls priced so you can afford to lose one. Or a few. Head to Sierra or Sierra.com for the brands you want at the prices that let you do it all.

34:16From athletic to athletic-ish, Sierra's got it. You can just see the strain in their face that they're in a shit relationship. but how hard is it for someone to be in a relationship with someone they love they've got kids they've not really got much income they're kind of they're not stuck there because people can make changes but if you're in that relationship 10 20 30 years you tend to see people just die with that relationship because it's went so far like how hard is it to actually come out a toxic abusive relationship it's hard but it can be done what are the steps to for it to be done well first of all you have to realize that you're in one you know you have to really have radical acceptance that you're in a toxic bond or a trauma bond and that this person isn't going to change.

35:02And then you have to take the steps to either make yourself more confident outside of the relationship, also get a lot of support through friends or a trauma-informed therapist, and really work on yourself. Because when you're in a trauma bond, like I was, I was so focused on Jordan because he was an addict and like I'm always trying to figure him out and trying to figure out his mood and and so I think I what I tell my patients is let's turn the mirror back on you let's get curious about you what do you want what do you need how do you really want to live your life and so put your energy towards yourself making yourself stronger and getting resourced financially emotionally relationally and then you have to face your fear was he cheating he was cheating but i didn't that wasn't what our fights were about like the movie talks about because obviously you get hookers in the park yeah yeah did you know about that no or were you just or did did you know you just try to block it out no i didn't know about that really no that wasn't real the the big fights were about drugs and how was these were these friends were they the same crazy yeah nuts madness attracts madness yeah yeah just crazy crazy people yeah very crazy people but you must have been one as well though because you were involved and that you don't matter what anybody says you we still make choices and we talk about trauma bonding which is difficult to break free but the choice everybody's choices it's insane you going to that party the very first time seeing someone pull their cock out yeah seeing him fucked up i'm never going back there again i don't want to see these people so yeah part of your madness was...

36:46It's sexy for some weird fucking insane reason. Yeah. Oh, I mean, certainly, I was young and dumb and delusional. I would say that. And what I'm also gonna say, though, is that I did leave the party, and he did pursue me, right? So I think that when I was a young girl, I relied a lot on being chosen instead of, like, really using my brain and being like, is this really what I want? And so, yeah, I mean, listen, once I was in it, I lost my mind. Because that's what happens in a trauma bond. You do go crazy and you do lose your mind. Did you feel as if you totally lost yourself? Completely lost myself.

37:25Completely. When was the moment you realized? Oh, I think it was all along the way. It's like a slow, I describe it in the book like an onion layer just peeling off. Just slow and steady. Every day, every week, every month. Yeah, I started to lose myself. Where did you get married? In Anguilla. Where's that? It's a Caribbean island. How many people? I don't remember. Maybe like 200. Was he sober? No. But I was. Do you have photos and stuff? Yes, um, yeah, I do. Yeah. What about the one with the... I know you spoke about it a few times, when you're on the boat, the helicopter falls off, he's nearly died.

38:08How true is that? That's very true. That was extraordinarily scary. What happened? There was, just like the movie shows, we got into a squall, and the waves, I don't even know how big they were, but they were crashing over the boat. And I definitely thought I was dying. For sure, I thought I was dying. And I remember, I think it was the Italian Coast Guard tried to save us, they couldn't. But then they rerouted an intrepid ship of the Italian Navy, and they came and got us off the boat with a frogman, pulled us 40 feet up. How far into a relationship was that? That was towards the end I would say about A year and a half Was he high on the boat?

38:50Yeah, I mean not when we were going through the squall I think everybody kind of sobered right up Because, you know, when you think you're going to die Yeah, it was very Very scary I wouldn't wish that on anybody It just all sounds mad In movies we glorify it But because it's acting as well We don't really look at actually, wait a minute, that's real life, what people are actually going through. The pain, the misery, the torment. Everything is kind of dark. It's a low vibration. It was a very, very dark, dark, sad existence over time. What was your mom saying? Oh, my mom was like, run like hell.

39:28Yeah, but you know, when you're in love and you think you know better, and then once you have children and you're locked in it, it's um it's hard to extract yourself out and you know we're talking about this now you and I 25 years later right so I can talk about it in a calm light way I'm sure five years out or even 10 years out it was a lot more difficult for me to talk about it in the movie as well who was the aunt from England was that true when they were trying to ship money to yeah I don't know Switzerland. Was that all true? Completely true. Was she with Jordan? Did they have a relationship?

40:07No, she was just a crazy lady. She wasn't an aunt or anything? No, she was my aunt, yeah. She was my mother's half-sister. And did she die? She did die, yeah. She had a brain tumor, yeah. Looks sick. So the movie was majority legit then? No, yeah, it was very... It was accurate. The thing about the movie is that, as you say, they take... They took my trauma, our trauma, all of the trauma and made it like a farce so it makes it palatable can you laugh at it yes yes and see the funny side oh look at it and you think what were you thinking you know because it does glamorize it it does look sexy for me if they're partying yeah i would want to back that party yeah even though i know it's fucked up but it just still looks fun as well yeah men are like you say we're vulnerable very we take drinking drugs to heal us cover up some sort of pain that we're dealing with yeah for my own opinion but the parties just looked fucking amazing they were fun yeah they were fun yeah yeah so i could but i can laugh at it because i've been in billions of years of therapy i've processed it so much you know now i've become an expert on the topic so i've what's word i've metabolized it and integrated enough to be able to sit here and talk about it calmly.

41:29But in my early 30s, recovering from it was quite a time. So you have the kids. When does it come on top for him with the police and the FBI? Was that another strain on your life? That was about a year later. After he got sober, that happened about a year later. So when did he get sober? I mean, I don't know the exact time, maybe 1980. maybe he or 1987 then he got arrested in 1988 or around that those those years what made him get sober this time well that's what what made him get sober was what i said to him you have to get sober and he went crazy and that whole thing did he go to rehab yeah he went to rehab yeah how was that feeling for you when the person he loves actually trying to make changes oh my god it was great but i was so it was for me it was mixed because i i felt happy for him but i was furious with him with what he had done to me.

42:26In the name of, you know, in me trying to get him sober. Yeah. So it was mixed for me. Yeah, that's the hard thing. Do you think you could have fell in love with him when he got sober if you never knew him? Or was it the madness of the past, who he was that was more apparent to you? Yeah, I think, you know, I think I definitely could have fallen in love. Yeah. I'm from Brooklyn. He's from Queens. We both are very ambitious, driven people. Yeah, we have two amazing kids. We were meant to be, right? So you've got two amazing kids. He's got sober. Yeah. Why leave him then? Because, like I said, I was so...

43:06It was so many years of emotional abuse and coercive control, and then the final act of that whole crazy day when I got kicked down the stairs backwards, and he drove my daughter into a wall. You can't get over that. I couldn't get over that. I just couldn't and once he got arrested I was like okay he can't do anything to me anymore can't hurt me he can't try to take my kids you know now he's the government's problem it must have been a kick in the balls he's got sober his missus have left him and then the fbi have came through the door yeah yep do you think he would have handled all that if he wasn't sober if he was on the drugs could he potentially have been suicidal as well with all the pressures and strains and stresses of life he's really strong yeah no i don't know i don't know i don't know especially with kids and stuff but again with the pressures of life in prison yeah losing your partner it is a lot for a man yeah yeah he's super strong he's very resilient he's made the changes he's got clean that strength in itself yeah so this was seven years into your marriage you left seven to eight years in yeah and then propel fitness water with gatorade electrolytes zero sugar and vitamins.

44:21Propel hydrates better than water to help you get the most out of your workout and get back to your best self. What propels you? Propel with Gatorade electrolytes. Sierra has all the best active and outdoor brands for the super athletic stuff, like running gear for cruising up the trail. Woo. And the super athletic ish stuff like fishing gear for chilling by the creek. Nice cast. Fitness apparel to push for higher reps. You got this. and golf balls priced so you could afford to lose one. Or a few. Head to Sierra or Sierra.com for the brands you want at the prices that let you do it all. From athletic to athletic-ish, Sierra's got it.

45:01How was it to eventually build up the courage to leave? Do you think it was easier to leave knowing that he was sober and he was more in a sane state? Yes. Instead of being the violent, aggressive, you couldn't have probably says anything because of the controlling nature that you're not leaving? Well, at that point, for me, I didn't care what he was. It didn't matter to me. I was done with him after how he had abused me. Do you then see that shift in your energy changing from feminine to masculine? Yeah, I think that's a good way to say it, yeah. And I just was done with it, like, you know. And I remember telling him one night in a restaurant about six months after he got sober how what a hard time it was for me and how much it had all hurt me.

45:45and he was like it wasn't that bad and it was at that that was a really important moment in my life where I just thought that's so callous and insensitive you know you're still not having empathy for me so his lack of empathy towards me too was another reason why I was able to leave and the good news was I knew that when I left and my kids would go to him he was sober now so you felt safer how important is it for a man to listen to women because we pretend to listen and like you say we are sensitive but I don't know how if we know how to show love we show it in different ways I'm speaking for myself but I know a lot of people who feel the same as well but if a woman's talking to you men are silly we don't know how to accept that and actually genuinely listen and go okay what do I need to do to change that I understand you I'm listening but we don't either make a joke or we'll book a holiday or there's another watch.

46:42Right, right. Try and replace it with something. I don't know if, I can't speak for every man, but I understand I'm only speaking it from... Yeah, sure. Maybe my sight. Yeah, yeah, yeah. How do you accept that then? If someone, you're speaking from the heart. Yes. He's changed, but he's kind of shut it down. Yeah. You've bottled it up. It's like going to someone who's abused you or whatever, and you're trying to open up to someone that just totally shut you down. Yeah. Some people could then put that, block it up for the rest of their life and never speak about it again. Yeah, yeah. What happens if he says, okay, listen, I'm sorry, I love you, and I should never have done that.

47:19Would you have stayed with him, or was it always done? I think, I don't know if I would have stayed with him, but there's another piece about love that I talk about. If someone can't hear you, they can't love you. So how do men listen better? Validate. validate my feelings. You know what, Nadine? That was really hard. I could see how that could have been hard for you and I'm really sorry. That's it. Do you think you played it down a lot? Maybe he needed to for his own mind, you know, which I can understand. But at some point the relationship can't just be all about him. And why did they kick you down the stairs?

47:56Oh, because he was trying to take my daughter and I was chasing him so that he couldn't take my daughter. Was that the worst time? Was that the darkest time in the relationship? Definitely. Yes. And he went to prison, was it 22 months? Yes. And how was that? Well, that happens many, many, many years later. Four years later, five years later? Yeah, I think five or six years later that happened for him. And we were all living in California at that time. Him and I got along very well. And he would see the kids all the time. The kids visited him. So I don't know what it was like for him while he wrote the book there.

48:38So he made good use of it. So when you're then model, trying to spread your wings, trying to find love, still young, you go through a toxic relationship, very abusive, very controlling. Then it's over. Your ex-husband changes. He's a better father. He's probably a better friend, more understanding than he's ever been. life's going great, you've probably done some therapy, you're kind of moving on with it. Yeah. When does he say then, okay, I'm writing a book about my life. Does that then think, well, fuck you? You're not really thinking. For me, I'm just looking from what I would say, I would think, what?

49:19I've had to go through all this and then I need to relive it. How was your reaction to it? That was exactly my reaction. Was it? Yeah, that was exactly it. That was exactly my reaction. I was like, are you kidding me? you know but again i just was like okay well this is he has a right to do it i mean i can't stop him from doing it and he he sent me the book and i screamed and cried and i threw myself into bed and then my husband was like okay time to get up and when did you meet your husband after the about two years after after i left jordan you've split up with jordan how long did it take to then meet your other partner two years?

49:58Yep, about two years, yep. How was that to get into a relationship, especially coming from that... It was... ...batter madness you were in? It was hard, because I had to trust. How did he do that? Slowly over time. Did he ever party, your man? No. Is he the total opposite? He's totally sober now. Yeah, he's not the total opposite, no. But he was older, I was older. we just we've been married for 24 years he's a good husband, he loves my kids he had three kids, we were a modern day Brady bunch and it was nice. So life is going good you're in a pretty, you come from chaos and life as well when you come from a life of chaos and then it becomes peaceful sometimes we can get it mixed up with being peaceful and boring did you ever think okay this is a bit boring because you were used to that no I like boring.

50:51Were you just happy with it? I like boring I like drama-free. Yeah, I like boring. Because people are so used to chaos that they stay in it for the rest of their life. Yeah, yeah. I didn't grow up with a lot of chaos, though, so that time was a very crazy time for me. But no, no, I like boring. It's okay. And then when he wrote the book, that was when I went back to school to get my master's. What was Jordan like when you met your new man? He was great. Was he? He was. He was. my current husband is great and he said, I'm gonna call up Jordan and take him to breakfast. I was like, good luck with that.

51:31And they went to breakfast and he said, I know what it's like to have somebody around my kids. I wanna go introduce myself to him. And I think Jordan really respected that. They have a great relationship. Yeah, that makes it easier. Yeah, it's nice. He ain't doing that if he was still fucking on the craylands. No. No, he's not. He was very glad that he wanted, And, you know, my husband showed him respect. So the book comes out. Scorsese comes. DiCaprio. Margot. Yeah. Beautiful. That's an unbelievable movie. Did you realize how far it would have went? But with Jordan's mindset, everything he took, he's always took to the top no matter what it was.

52:13Yeah. Did you realize how big his book would have went and how far it would have went when he wrote it? No. I could have never anticipated that. No, no. And when did you start finding out that they were going to turn it into a movie? Scorsese, one of the greatest directors of all time. DiCaprio, one of the greatest actors of all time. I would say probably maybe a year and a half before they were going to do it, I think. So what are you thinking again? Did it bring back a lot of emotions and trauma because now it's going to go to a wider audience? Completely, completely. Did you have to do more therapy?

52:46I did a lot more therapy, huh? Hence why I became a therapist because I was like, therapy has really helped me manage this crazy life I've had. What was it like going to therapy for the first time? Oh, I like therapy. It's good, yeah. It's good. It's nice to go to a nonjudgmental accepting place where you could say whatever you want and you get to work on yourself. Yeah, it was great. How long did it take to come out the other end? I'm still doing it. 30 years later and we're still fucked up. I think I'm still I don't think the growth ever ends yeah that's what it's all about do you think sometimes though we can constantly search and forget to live yes yes the last the last chapter in my book is called Go Live the book's amazing by the way thank you because it was a great movie people then loved the characters from it so it wasn't a negative I don't know I can't speak for you but it didn't seem to be a negative it seemed everybody's life from that enhanced positively?

53:47Yeah. Was that the case when it came out? Yeah, I mean, it seems like that. You know, when it came out, I was getting my doctorate, and I really didn't speak about it much, because I had nothing to say, you know? And I just really cared about my kids, and what they were gonna think about it, and how they were gonna deal with it, because I forgot how old they were, but maybe 16 and 18, or 17 and 19. So that really was my main concern, and I got to go to a private screening of Paramount with my husband. And so I said, Dan, and we were like, OK, here we go. And then when they showed us the movie, I was like, it wasn't that bad.

54:23You know? It was good. Did you realize how big it was going to be? No. I had no idea. I mean, I should have realized with Jordan, he goes big or goes home. But no, I didn't have any idea. What sort of input did you have in it? Zero. Because Margot Robbie's a big, she's a big part in the movie. Yeah, I met Margot. they asked me if I would fly and meet her and I was actually taking my daughter to college so I took my daughter to college and they taped my accent and I got to meet her she was so young then, she was 22 the same age I was and she was great Sierra has all the best active and outdoor brands for the super athletic stuff like running gear for cruising up the trail woo!

55:06and the super athletic-ish stuff like fishing gear for chilling by the creek Nice cast. Fitness apparel to push for higher reps. You got this. And golf balls priced so you can afford to lose one. Or a few. Head to Sierra or Sierra.com for the brands you want at the prices that let you do it all. From athletic to athletic-ish, Sierra's got it. Propel Fitness Water. With Gatorade electrolytes, zero sugar, and vitamins. Propel hydrates better than water to help you get the most out of your workout and get back to your best self. What propels you? Propel with Gatorade Electrolytes.

56:11Shop now at palmolive.com. Now that I've spoke to you and seen you, you can see the resemblance in the way she speaks. She fucking nailed that part. She nailed it. Didn't she? Yeah, she did a great job. No, she did a great job. And we went to dinner, and I talk about this on one of my TikToks, but she was like, I don't want to take my clothes off, but I don't know how to say it to them. And I said, you know, that feeling that you feel right there, Margot, like speaking truth to power, that's how I felt my whole marriage. So think about that when you're doing your role. And she did a great job.

56:45She was so good and funny and feisty and... Did you see yourself in that character? A little bit. I mean, it's not that much fun having the most beautiful woman in the world play you that's 20 years younger. Okay? But she was amazing and, you know. How many times you watched the movie? Oh, not that many. Probably four or five. Do you ever get upset watching it or do you just laugh now? You know, I sometimes, like, I just watched it recently and I got a little bit more upset. I think it just depends upon my mood. Yeah. I don't, like, spend my time watching it every day. So when did you start getting into the therapy side of things and understanding, really understanding you coming out the other end and realizing, okay, I can help others?

57:33When did you start really working on that? Well, I became a therapist. I'm 56. So I became a therapist, I guess, maybe 15 years ago. And so I didn't really know that I was going to specialize in trauma bonds. That wasn't my intention. But, you know, the book of the movie came out. And again, I didn't say anything right when the movie came out. And then what happened to my therapy practice is I saw so many women coming into my practice being experienced coercive control, emotional abuse, manipulation, betrayal. And so I said, okay, being the nerdy good student that I am, I said, I'm going to go back to the research and figure this out.

58:12So I researched it. And then it became my expertise. What's the biggest red flags in a month? Oh, there's a lot. But there can be a lot. You know, we talked about love bombing. We talked about words not met, like words not matching actions. It's a huge one when they tell you they're going to do something, but then they don't do it. anybody who's trying to coercively control you and doesn't give you the space to be who you are. Constant lies, you know, that's words, not matching actions, or gaslighting, denying your reality when you know they're lying to you and you confront them and they're like, you're crazy.

58:50What's the biggest dread flag in our women? Oh, all the same things. The exact same? The exact same things, yeah. Do you think men and women are more alike than people like to let on? I think so. I think we all have personalities that can make us very similar. But I do think that we're very different just based upon our hormones. Like, I'm sure if you gave me a lot of testosterone, I'd change. You know? Fuck that. You're like, we're not giving you anything. What makes a good relationship, Nadine? What makes a good, strong, healthy relationship? Because no relationship is perfect. I've never met a couple who are extremely happy.

59:28What makes a good... And listen, we live in this society where people talk about toxic masculinity, but we live in a life of social media as well. I wouldn't want my partner on social media with the bikinis and around other men. And I can't accept that. I don't know what it is that's ingrained in me, but I couldn't accept it. I'm not drinking. I'm not out partying. I'm not standing in the club. Right. I don't want others, my other half, doing that also. Yeah. And there's got to be, is it best to put out the boundaries or whatever it is to say, okay, I'm not going to accept that. But then is that you saying that to try and manipulate them to then agree with what you're doing also?

1:00:04So anything you can say can be manipulated and turned around also. Yeah, well, I think setting a boundary is different than intentional manipulation, right? So it's always about the intention, right? If you're just setting a boundary and saying this isn't something I'll accept, but you're not doing it to intentionally manipulate the person. You're just expressing who you are. That's very different than intentionally lying to someone, manipulating them, gas-sliding them. You're just saying, listen, I don't like to go to clubs. Can you respect that and not do that? I mean, the person says yes or no, but you're not trying necessarily to control them.

1:00:44You're just expressing who you authentically are and what you authentically want and need. And then your partner, remember we talked about this, if they can hear you, it's like, yeah, I hear that. that kind of makes sense but what when is it enough when is it enough to stop working at it when do you know okay it's just not working anymore i need to walk away when does it when is that point of it because people can go to therapy couples counseling for years on end for me the relationship doesn't end but yeah but again i respect them from keep working at it because back in the day people were married at 17 18 years old right with each other 70 70 60 70 years yeah Nowadays, people don't last 60, 70 minutes.

1:01:27You know what I'm saying? So when does it become enough, though, that you need to protect yourself, no matter if there's kids involved, and need to just walk away? Well, I think that we all, like you say, are imperfect. I know I'm very imperfect in my relationship. I know my husband is. But we can hear each other, we can communicate with each other, and we can have some resolution to our problems. So if you have crazy-making communication that never goes anywhere, you have a problem. And everybody can do like a one-off bad thing, like we said. But if you see a pattern of behavior, a pattern of lying, a pattern of manipulation, a pattern of control that's not going away no matter what, then you need to run like hell.

1:02:14That's why, you know, and that's very, you know, and that's why I wrote my book, because when you're in it and you're in love, it can be very hard to see it. And especially if you don't understand it. But now there's a lot of information out there where people can get help. And the research shows it takes a woman four to seven times to leave a trauma bond. It's a very hard thing to do is to leave somebody you love. But often love isn't enough. When were you at your lowest? Which time? That's what I'm saying. When was it the lowest of the lowest? After being kicked down the stairs? Yeah, that was probably the lowest, one of the lowest times.

1:02:54There must have been a lot of happy times. When were you, when were you at your happiest? Oh, I think when our children were born, of course, and moving into our house, all those things of newly being married. The beginning, I think, really connecting with each other emotionally. Did you have friends in that relationship? Or were you just, again, isolated? Oh, I had so many friends. Did you? Yeah. So you weren't isolated in the house, just... Yeah, no, no. I'm a very relational person, so I have, like, not tons of friends, but I have enough of good friends who are still my friends till today. Yeah, but I had friends.

1:03:31And a lot of our friends were friends. You know, we would... That was the fun part. Like, we would all hang out together with our husbands and our kids. That was the fun part. What was it like being a mother? Do you think you could have left the relationship earlier if you never had kids? Yes, being a mother is... the most important experience of my life. How so? It's the most wonderful experience. I mean, I could cry talking about it, as you can see. I just love being a mother. As you talked about, I'm a nurturer, I'm a caretaker. And I don't know, there's just something so magical about it. And my children now are 30 and 28, and they're my best friends.

1:04:11My daughter's a therapist. My son's a rapper. I have three stepdaughters who I'm very close with. There's nothing like giving birth to this beautiful little soul and then helping them to develop and become these wonderful people. And that to me is like the most important thing about Jordan and I, and I always say this, you know, the one thing is that we've both been really good parents. And we both really love our kids, and it shows in who they are today. And so a lot of... And it's really hard when you're in a trauma bond usually to have that experience. And that doesn't mean we haven't wanted to kill each other even after we've gotten divorced.

1:04:48We're strong personalities, but we've always come together for the children. Because when you talk about your children, you can see the nurturing, loving, natural thing a woman should be. Yes. But then again, you talk about the masculine energy as well. Do you see a big change in who you were from 22? Everybody changes through time anyway, but you see a massive change in being that submissive. Okay, Jordan. Listen, you weren't fucking stupid. you're from Brooklyn, do you know what I mean? You've got some sort of backbone, but do you feel the shift in you from back then till now? Oh, yeah, I'm totally much more empowered.

1:05:23In fact, I was thinking about that I was driving over here. It's like, it feels good to feel strong. You know, it feels good. Just tell people to fuck off. Oh, it does. It feels great. And, you know, especially at 56, because there's so much, like, bullshit around ageism, especially with women. And, I mean, yeah. Do I wish I didn't have so many wrinkles and whatever else is happening with my body and that sort of stuff, but I love what's happening with my mind. It's fun. Yeah, because if you can take whatever control you want and think and believe what you want to believe, the world's unstoppable, everything's limitless.

1:05:58Yeah, yeah, and it's, um, I don't know, it's just nice to be able to think that you can influence yourself. And one of the things that I work with, with the women I work with, is they're so, after you've been in trauma-bind, you feel so much fear. because you've been so controlled and a lot of times the partners can be dominating and that's that fear is real and but when you when you get older at least for me I'm facing my fears every day you know I used to hate to do podcasts I would feel so insecure and so self-conscious right but I've done them enough now I faced my fears enough to be able to do it and so really working with the women that I work with on facing their fears, approaching life.

1:06:43How do you face your fears? I just keep showing up and doing what I fear and talking myself through it, saying nice things to myself. You can do it, you can do it. And teaching myself that mistakes, failure, rejection, they're all part of life. It just means you're trying. I mean, have you ever been rejected or failed? Yeah, all the time. Right. It's fucking painful. And it's all day. But that's why a lot of people stayed in their comfort because it is painful rejection, as it was, especially for men. Men, it's... Like I say, men, we're pretty simple creatures, but I've got enough male friends, and I understand men enough, I understand my life and not bringing the choices I made.

1:07:23We are kind of fucked up as well. We are lost souls, and it's sad because... Yeah. The majority of... Jordan Peterson says that the majority of people who are in prison are men. The majority of people who are homeless are men. the majority of people who are suicidal are men the majority of people who fight in wars are men the majority of people who have shitty jobs are men and I used to think wow but then I thought well wait a minute what does that say then it means women are smarter because women are making better choices men don't need to make those choices men don't need to go to prison men don't need to be suicidal something disconnected from man and I go back from again breastfeeding and cutting the umbilical cord, which is so important.

1:08:08It's full of stem cells and nutrients. But again, everything, so as soon as you cut that and everything's skin to skin and kids can think they're in the womb for up to nine months or whatever it is. And some kids, women need to work. Kids are in nurseries or whatever. Yeah. I don't know whatever it stems from, but there's something that I miss with the man and the feelings. Listen, we're men as well. We've got to just fucking pull the trousers up sometimes and just dig deep and get on with it because we can't be crying. every day it's not our natural being it's good to listen men cry it's great listen whatever but we can't be crying every fucking day do you know what I mean as a man you've got to be taking everybody's pain on and pressures okay I've got you my kids are safe my missus is safe my mother's safe okay listen if I need to fucking have a moment I'll have a moment but I still need to show up the next day make sure everything's safe again from one opinion I don't know I think people I think the world's just becoming a I don't know it can be a bit soft if I'm honest Nadine.

1:09:05The world is becoming soft. Yeah, a bit soft. Yeah. Yeah. And it's, what do you think the main triggers are for? Like a steady relationship and a broken relationship? What is the main ones that break relationships down? What's the main triggers? I think a big part of it is lying. You think so? Yeah, I think that if you can't trust your partner, you don't really have a foundation. I mean, we all have quite little lies. And I think consistently lying to a partner, I think consistently betraying a partner, stepping outside the relationship. You know, we talked about drugs already. But those are things that...

1:09:43And really, like I talked about, trying to control your partner. Nobody wants to be controlled. I mean, I don't want to be controlled. Do you want to be controlled? No. Yeah, just want to be me. So lying, betraying, controlling a partner, abusing them, manipulating them, those that's not love do you miss the old life no believe that no i don't i don't i like my new life how was it writing your book the hardest thing i've ever done why oh it's so much work it's so much work to take all the research and mix it in with the stories and you think about a book is 60 70 000 words and every word counts um and i kind of have that personality of like oh yeah, I'll write a book.

1:10:32And then I write it. I'm like, what on earth did I get myself into? But I, it's my life's work. I know it's good. Cause I know just so, I get so many messages from women all over the world. Like your book is helping me so much. I'm not feeling crazy. Your book is validating me. So that makes, so that makes it all worth it. But it was very hard. It was a very humbling experience. Let's just say that. Obviously you're a therapist, but was that like a therapy session for you? Yeah. Did that make, did it bring again all the emotions and feelings back of everything? Yes, especially chapter two. Chapter two where I write about the man, is he twisted or tender?

1:11:09I said to my husband, I hate you. I hate Jordan. I hate my father. He was like, okay, when's this book gonna be over? Yeah, it was hard. Was there a time though you hated every man because of how a man put you through, what one man put you through? I think it was just writing about that personality. It was just very, it was a process that really ate me up from the inside out. It was hard to do. How is that when you feel as if you're losing your mind? How hard is that for a woman? You know, when I, when I, luckily for me, when I feel, my mother taught me the most best quote. She said to me, just when you think you're losing your mind, you might be regaining it.

1:11:48And so I let myself lose my mind. I let myself feel my emotions. I let, like you say, like I I give myself that moment just to cry in bed or flail about and really express them. They come out, they process, and then I'm like, okay. So, it's okay. I mean, I expect to feel a lot of feelings and lose my mind. That's part of life. When are you at your happiest now? Oh, my God, when I'm with my grandson. He's so cute. I have two grandsons, and they're just... It's magical. From each kid? No, I have, my daughter has just had a boy, Rory. Congratulations. I think that's kind of a Scottish name, isn't it?

1:12:32Yeah. And then my stepdaughter has a three, she has a three and a half, almost four year old boy. They're so fun. Yeah, Steven, he's just got a granddaughter as well. It's the best, right? Do you think you can enjoy it better, being a grandparent? Totally. Because you can give them back after a few hours. It's the best. It's the best. There's a pillow that says, if I knew being a grandparent was so good, I would have done it first. And it's just great. It's so much fun. I love being with my family. That, to me, is... And my good friends, like, that, to me, is what it's all about. Why do you think it is easier being a grandparent?

1:13:08Not easier, but do you think it's because of what you've learned of being a parent or is it because it's not your own kid? Because you would still die for your grandkids as much as you would your kids anyway, but why do you think it is more enjoyable? I think both the reasons you said. I think both the reasons you said. You can give them back, and you've already been through it. You're not as nervous. You know, you're just like, oh, they'll be fine. I drop my son on his head, he's fine. What did your kids say when they watched the movie? You know, that's a good question. They went to the premiere with Jordan, and they sat next to their grandparents, which they said was, like, totally awkward.

1:13:46And they were fine with it. I had spoken to them about their dad throughout their whole lives. So this was not some big shock, who he was. And they were like, that's my dad, okay. Then they're crying to me about pimples and their boyfriends. They went back to their lives. Yeah, because you can... They wouldn't have knew the extent of the lifestyle if it wasn't out there on a book or TV. Right. Do you know what I'm saying? So you can hide and mask a lot. Do you think it improves your relationship with your kids because then they get a better understanding of what you actually went through. Yeah, I mean, I don't know if it improves it, but...

1:14:24Are you scared that they could have not turned on Jordan, but... No, because I've never... I've always supported them to have a really good relationship with their dad. I think that's something that's really important. You know, just because him and I didn't get along in the end, that's still their dad. Like, they have to have a good relationship with him. And I think that's important for them and for him, you know? Did you travel the world then? Was it a luxurious lifestyle where you were traveling in yachts and helicopters and private planes? Yes. Did you live that lifestyle? I didn't like the private planes.

1:14:57They were really freaky because you feel everything in a private plane. They're very bumpy. The yacht, of course, we had crazy moments of fun. So, yeah, it had its fun moments. What was your happiest moment in that relationship? that's a tricky one probably in the beginning before i knew what i was really getting myself into when i was a young hopeful girl yeah what age do you think you should fall in love i believe people should because people can fall in love at 17 and be with each other the rest of their lives yeah but how far in a relationship do you think you should really wait do you think people should wait because like you say everything's lost at the start everything's just yeah exciting and feeling good do you think people should wait a bit longer before getting to know the person before committing i do i do but i know love has its own way of working people but i do i think it's i think it's better to wait till you're at least in your late 20s to really they say it takes seven years to fully get to know somebody see i can't last seven minutes why so there's no way why do you think love is so painful sometimes but yeah it's the purest form of anything on this planet but yeah it is painful to love someone or be in love and for men anyway relationship breakups are one of the hardest a man can go through it we don't speak about it we don't sit with the friends and go do you know what I miss her go and get fucking high on coke or go to the strip joint or get alcohol suppress it all women sit and talk shit in kitchens and go with their girlfriends and just talk Men don't really heal from relationships.

1:16:39Breakups, yeah, that's sad. Yeah. Why do you think that is? Well, I think love hurts because we are social beings and we're meant to belong to people. I mean, we can't live alone. You know, a baby won't survive unless a mother's face is in front of it. And so I think it hurts so much because people that we fall in love with matter to us a lot. and when they don't act the way we want them to or they abandon us you know we feel like it could feel like death i mean heartbreak feels like death do you believe in soulmates i don't know it's a bit airy fairy isn't it yeah i'm really more research based i'd imagine if you were to meet a man now would you have like a fucking checklist i go okay okay okay would you have like no do you look um obviously you're in a happy relationship if you've seen a man would you look for would you the telltale signs be there automatically would you have something you would yes if i was if i was dating now yeah i have a pathological lover checklist i would say check and i actually put an assessment for it on my website yeah yeah especially for young girls i know what it was like to be that young naive girl and so especially for young women and relationships are fucking crazy did you ever struggle how's your your kids relationships did you ever worry like you're especially your daughter that made the same choice as you did yes she did and she married the greatest guy which was that a concern though because you know how easy it can be yeah sure sure but she never she's much smarter than i am she never showed signs of my ridiculousness yeah yeah and my son he's he's just a sweet young man so he's great how's the relationship with you and jordan now good good just just fine yep he's remarried to a lovely young woman.

1:18:36You know, we're grandparents, and I don't really see him that much anymore because now my kids are big. So there's not really much of a reason to see him. But when we see each other, we saw each other when our grandson was born, Rory. And we hugged, and it was a nice, happy moment. Yeah, very happy. Because obviously you shared a lot of time with someone, but they say love only the last seven years. Do you believe that? Relationship-wise? No. Yeah, it could. I could say in one marriage, like, in one marriage, you could be, like, have three marriages, three different experiences of marriage. Yeah, like, I'm with my husband now 24 years.

1:19:13It's not like when we first met, you know? But it's like the love has deepened. How do you last 24 fucking years? I told you I'm very tolerant and driven. I told you. I don't know. We just lasted, and I'm glad. What's the key, though? do you think the broken relationships from the last time helped this relationship or did it make it harder? No I think it helped and I think we both just really wanted it to work so when I was a pain in the ass he would check me when he was a pain in the ass you know I would check him and thing in the end we both wanted it to work we wanted to have that family unit and like I could tell you if you can stay till the grandkids stay because it's so nice when everybody's around us, so we both wanted it to work.

1:20:04Why did you never have any more kids? Oh, because I had one of each, and they're perfect. Enough. Enough. I didn't want more kids. How many do you have? Three. Oh, boy, you're brave. Did you ever worry that the other relationship could have broke down? You'd have had two marriages. For sure. Do you then doubt yourself and who you are to then try and keep a man as well, if it's always broken relationships? Of course, of course, yeah, yeah, sure, sure. But when I had problems in my relationship, I'd be like, oh, my God, imagine I get divorced again. But we figured it out. Yeah. What do you think the key is to a healthy relationship?

1:20:39I think mutual respect. And I talked about this in the beginning, hearing each other. Like, not getting defensive, you know, and not personalizing everything. I think that, you know, not everything's about you when you're in a marriage. Sometimes your partner's just in a bad mood. Mm-hmm. It's not always about you. But we can hear each other. when I first met my husband, and I said to him, oh, that really bugged me when you did that. He goes, oh, okay, I hear you. I was like, what? I couldn't believe he could hear me. What's wrong with this man? Yeah, I was like, what? Yeah, so, but yeah, we've had a bumpy road too.

1:21:15The course of true love never did run smooth. How did he deal with it, the movie coming out? That must have been tough on him. Not tough, but you know what I'm saying? To see all that shit and your partner out there. Do you know what I mean? As a man, speaking from a man, I would like to see it. Sure, sure. But he must be an understanding man. He is, he is. I mean, look, listen, I'm here talking about my ex-husband, right? Yeah, of course. And he's totally cool about it. He understands my mission in life. He knows what I want to do. But he's told me he'll be on the golf course, and, you know, people will say, oh, you know, my ex-wife, the Duchess of Bay Ridge.

1:21:52And the guys will be like, oh, your wife was naked in the movie. He's like, that wasn't my wife. Yeah, he's no... Yeah. Do you think, could you turn the book into a movie or a follow-up from your own life story? What you went through, yeah, and the trauma and all the pain and overcoming stuff? Yeah, I just don't want to do that. Yeah, enough's enough. Enough's enough. I took the wolf vehicle, which I'm grateful for, and used it in my way, right? Jordan used it in his way. I get to use it in my way. Yeah, I love that. That's what it's all about. you know what I mean take it as a positive right fucking enhanced everything and like I say everything's enhanced people know who you are people want you on podcast why not you talk about the pain of the past because like you say it wasn't all painful right it was some amazing fucking moments some of the best moments of your life where you look back and think fuck me at least when you're on your deathbed you've done do you know what I'm not going out this fucking life all unscathed and perfect fucking threw a little fucked up but wow have I lived how many people can say they were on a boat and a helicopter crashed and you're getting lifted out in the air.

1:22:57No, not many people could say that. See, when you're speaking in therapy, your therapist must have been thinking she's fucking full of shit. So what's the thing you think you'd make half of that shit up? You know, the thing is that when I was becoming therapist and the movie came out, I was like, who the hell is going to want to come to me as a therapist? I rarely had that moment. But then people were like, wait, but you went through that and you came out here. We do want to come to you. so you know I was worried about it but it actually all worked out so all these years later you're still working on yourself yes I'm not in therapy this this right now but yes yeah as a therapist you have to be so for anybody that's maybe in that shit relationship and struggling to leave what advice would you have for them I would say to them don't isolate talk about it let people know what you're going through.

1:23:49Try to get yourself into some trauma-informed therapy. Get really educated, and that's why I wrote the book, because education leads to empowerment. And Jonah Hull character, great part. He played how close to the characters were real. Very real. The guy with the teeth. Was he real? Yeah. Was it? So seeing when you're watching that, is it funny in a sense where you're thinking how close it was to being basically 100 % genuine? Yeah. Yeah, I mean, they mixed some of the characters together. Yeah, of course. But, you know, yeah, it was very genuine. Those guys were crazy. Did you like any of his friends?

1:24:27Nah. Nah, I mean, not so much. Some of them were nicer than others. And how is it when you talk about all that? Because, listen, like I say, it's a massive movie. It's a big part of your life. People are interested in hearing that stuff, but they're also interested in hearing how you overcome it, how you made the changes, how you never, it never broke you when you're sitting in a corner just shaking. No. Do you know what I'm saying? You're still a beautiful looking woman. You're doing amazing things. And that's what it's all about, to give people an understanding. You don't have to just settle.

1:24:57That's right. You don't have to just fucking accept. You can go with it. Enough's enough. No matter who it is in your life, your husband, your mother, your father, your brother, your sister. Exactly. No matter if it's a family member, you can tell them to fuck off. That's right. In my opinion. But again, where can people buy your book? So they can buy it on Amazon, of course, Barnes & Noble. There's also an e-book, and I did the audio book myself. So you get to hear this Brooklyn accent. And everywhere, pretty much books are sold. What's all your social media links and stuff? Sure. The Instagram is TheRealDrNadean.

1:25:31And TikTok, which I say is the Wild West of social media, is DrNaeNaeLMFT. How has the response been on all the social medias? Good. The people are ruthless as well. How do you deal with trolling? shitty messages everybody gets them yeah you know what i just heart them and i think they get confused and they don't know what to do going forward for the future nadine what's your plans what's your visions oh my vision is just to be grateful that i get to wake up every single day and i'm still breathing and just on my mission just to educate women everywhere about trauma bonds and, you know, help as many women.

1:26:09I would say helping women one heart at a time. You know, just try to reach their potential in life and in love. So I love my work. I love being of service. And my, you know, my grandson's coming in four weeks. And, yeah, that's pretty much it. Just keep working on my mission to educate people. What's your greatest life lesson? Playing it safe is the most dangerous place to be. Don't play it safe. Take risks. What's the better motivation that you could give someone that's maybe stuck in a rut just now? Yeah, that it's okay to feel stuck. It's okay to don't judge yourself for feeling stuck. Don't beat yourself up.

1:26:52Just say, you know what? Take little, little steps to make your life better. Change doesn't happen like one big overarching change, right? What can you take? What two steps can you take today to make your life better? What two steps can you take tomorrow? What two steps can you take the next day? And then all those steps end up leading to big change. Nadine, listen, thank you for coming on today. You're very welcome. I've thoroughly enjoyed that. What you're doing is amazing. What you've overcome is amazing. The book's amazing. I'll leave the link in the description. Would you like to finish up on anything else?

1:27:24No, just thank you for having me. Yeah, anytime. This was fun. All the best. Wish you all the best for the future. Thank you. Yeah, good luck with it all. God bless. Thank you.