Notorious Bank Robber McVicar Speaks: Heists, Escapes, and Life on the Run.

40:56He said, you're a good kiter. So I'm all right. So what happens is, I think, I start getting two grand, a grand, 500 quid, a grand. So when I go out to the first table with this guy, I have an up. But this is what the problem is. If you use, if I had your travel checks from Scotland, they'd be on a list. If they come from America, they won't go on a list. The stuff never comes back. But what was happening was he had a connection for unsigned gear, and there was hundreds of grands worth of gear going missing. So what happens is it was going into, say, the£10 alley. Get it given to you for halfway, right?

41:38Like, there'd be someone in there who was in charge. I didn't know it was. You pay halfway, right? One person can only get 20 grand down over two days, but it goes to other firms. you have to all start on the same day so you all agree where you're going to start so what was happening was if you lost a photograph they was getting like the odd photograph of me they didn't dab it and they was going who's this kid you know fandell was that like they didn't know who i was no one knew sort of who i was right but someone said like you're fucking you're they know they know about you but they don't know your name right you're fucking you want to be careful son, right?

42:18Anyway, what happens is, I speak to Blonde Jules, he says, you've got to be careful, you mustn't lose photographs. You can't lose photographs. But what you can't do is use unsigned, they put all their work into it. So what happens is this, it's lucky but it's unlucky. They get my dabs, they go, it's fucking McViccair, son, let's go and get him. They come to get me, I don't go back on the check thing that I get charged with it's three months in but on about the third month or the second month I never go back to the court proceedings you know you go every month and it goes to the crown or it goes wherever so I'm on the trot so when they go to my mum's I'm not there when they try and find me I'm not on the grid I'm not I ain't got a driving license I haven't got a bill in my name so what's happening now I think I'm just wanted for a 50 quid check from a betting shop.

43:13I would have probably got eight months. So, Shrewdnuts are saying, you shouldn't be doing the unsigned. They'll kill you for it, because it's part of like a million pound fucking swindle over months. I've joined the firms throughout London, but I'm a little bit naive. I'm game, but I'm losing photos. So people working with no photo probably don't get caught. But anyone with a photo, you get caught. So what's happened is, I'm now living in the Cotswolds. I didn't have much money. And I just think I'm wanted for like, a small amount of thing. But someone's told me, if you're doing unsigned and you've lost photos, it'll come on tumble, right?

44:04So I'm open. So what happens is, I go into a hotel to have a shave. I had eight grand worth of travellers checks. And I've missed the door to have the shave, and I've gone into an office. Guys, what are you doing here? He thinks I'm a creeper. There's a lot of creepers about. So I say, I'm sorry, but he chases me. I get nicked. I go to the police station. I give a moody night. Back in the day, it didn't matter if they took you a prince then. They had to send them to Scotland Yard to do them. They didn't do them at the station. It wasn't possible. So I said, well, I get bail. She said, you get bail.

44:35Possession. but what's happened is my girlfriend wasn't at the flat at the house you know she was similar age to me she wasn't there so when you have to get bail in the morning I know I can't get bail fucking that's it so when I go to court the next day I'm hoping no other traveller's checks have come back but what happens is there's a cousin there he said he's wanted for hundreds of grand's worth he's Russell Grant McVicar and he's banging truck sort of thing so I'm off so I go go into custody and they said we've got about 300 grand's worth to show show it right so you had a choice you could either go into when you go court next you could either go into the check fraud thing and look at all the things and this is how it works while I'm at the scrubs there's a geezer called TC Clay doing a seven and this is what he said to me I said can I escape from the station if I go to the station he said fucking hell he said he said what it is there's two sides to the jail and this is what they'll do they'll show you loads of gear some of it will be yours some of it won't if you lie to them and they know you're lying then you're going on trial for the bits you don't he said this is what happened to him he gets a seven when he could have got a five or six but he he went guilty on some but run a trial on others and it was proven against him so he is advising me what to do so I said, okay.

46:03I said, can I escape? He said, yeah. He said, but there's two sides to the thing. On this side is where they show you all the kites. He said, when I got there, I was going across like that. He said, and then they kept me on this side. He said, so you need to be on that side. So anyway, I go into custody on a three-day thing with a brief and all that. And the first day they put me here, which is the wrong side. So without all this information, what I do next don't work. so I said it's too noisy I want to be on the other side he went no problem right so that night I'm on this side I get I said I want to I want a hours exercise so they cuffed me to talk as her so he walked around I said what's left he went that's parliament square so I can't run that way if I get the chance I said what's right he said there's a bridge and then there's a an estate so anyway it's got a long story next day I'm cuffed I'm cuffed coming back I'm cuffed right on about the third, on the next trip, I'm not cuffed, all right?

47:08You've got no chance of me, trust me. If he don't grab me, he ain't got a chance. I thought, I was going, I thought, fucking hell, now, why this is all going on? There's people in the tin pan, right, talking to people against this, he's down the thing, he's going to make one, he's going to make one, make one, they're all fucking drinking.

47:29There's but they don't really think it's going to work out, right? So what happens is, I bolt. I'm gone. There was no causes coming in. On other days, there was cars coming in and things happening. I could have been unlucky. I get away. And what happens is, I run. And I thought, I've been running there for over a minute. I thought I'd best go up. So I've gone up some stairs, and some kids saw me, and they never shot me, because most kids don't like coppers, right? So I thought, I've got to hide. So I knock on the door, knock on the door, knock on the door. Woman says, who's that? I said, it's Mills on Wheels.

48:03She went, what? She says, it's Mills on Wheels, man. I put a funny voice. So she went to me. She opens the door. I'll kick the door open. I get on my knee. I said, lady, please. I said, John McViccasson, I just escaped from the thing down the road. I shut the door behind me. I said, please, I'm not like a burglar or nothing bad. I said, you can ring my dad and you'll come and get me, please. I was on my knee like that. I said, please. All right. I can hear Cosser shouting. You could hear him shouting. I'm thinking the kids might have fiend. They even knocked on all the doors. She rang my dad. He said, yeah, I'll come and get him.

48:33He said, tell him I'll be in an hour. He said, let it die down, right? Her husband come home. I said, I'm so sorry, mister. I said, I'm so sorry, because I frightened the woman, you know what I mean? But I got on my knees straight away. I said, I'm so sorry. He went, it's all right, son. Anyway, I had a cup of tea, some biscuits. And when it was time to go, my dad rang. She went, oh no, he went down and checked. He said, your dad's there. I said, thank you so much, you know what I mean, for your kindness. So I was lucky. I go downstairs. I go to get on the floor. He goes, there's no one here. Who are you worried for?

49:05So we drive off. He gives me a hug. He says, look after yourself. So I'm now banging trouble. They're looking for me all over London. But I was slippery. So I'm at the first gaff. I move out. They missed me by two days. It was my girlfriend's gaff. I had nowhere to go. Then I had somewhere to go. And while I was doing the traveller's checks, two people showed me what the undercover vans looked like over South London. There were squads in these gaffs. And the TC guy, who's a pro, who's to get the gear, he said, that's what the vans look like. That's what you're looking for, right? So on one of the gaffs over Stoke Newton, I see a van.

49:48So I don't go back, right? Then I'm crashing it. I'm getting money again. but I won't do unsigned, because I know it'll come back. So I was doing checks for cars, and I would have got nicked. But one of the causes in charge of the case, where he took a car to someone who we've sold it to for four grand worth seven, he said, well, get them. He said, you get your money back, mate. He said, well, we'll get this little firm. He said, because they're greedy, and they're only working out of one magazine. We'll get them. And because of that, I stopped doing that. So I was getting money. I had different girlfriends staying in hotels.

50:23and basically they i had a swedish girlfriend so i'm going to sweden i'm going to things so i was here there and everywhere and i was doing well and they kept missing me in certain places like they go one place i come back from sweden one occasion and i thought i'll go home so i didn't go home i thought i'll ring first i rang my mate i said go and check if where i am's all right and when i can tell you now it ain't fucking all right they've been near a week. I went on holiday about two days before they arrived. And when I've come back, I've checked. And the reason it must have been, because I never had a phone, but I had a phone at my gaff, and about four people had rung, and I knew that was dangerous, like people in the TC game.

51:04So someone had shot me. I slipped in there, and then I'm over the angel. This is months later. I'm still getting money, and I'm staying in a woman's gaff, all right? And what she says to me is, all of a sudden, I'm standing there, she goes on holiday, and I stay with my sweetie's girlfriend. All of a sudden, a big heavy gangster comes around from the plot, right? From his room. So I see him out the window, I thought, what the fuck does he want, right? So I go downstairs, I said, sweet? He went, yeah, sweet. Come in. I said, come in. He went, listen. He said, old Bill, we're on the plot. It's either you or me, right?

51:42So I went, I think the BPU. He said, I won't tell you what I know. He said, someone's seen them. They're plotted up around there. He said, they're plotted over there. He said, my gaff's there. He said, your gaff's there. He said, it's just one of us. So what I do, I move out to a friend, this woman's friend next door, two along. So what I was doing, I give my eyes a chance, checking everywhere. There's no police following me. So I thought, it ain't for me. What I'm doing still, I'm going in her front door, the downstairs door, going at the back and I'm going into the house I'm now staying in on about the 10th day one morning they smashed the door off run upstairs no warning smashed the other door off and I'm not there so what are you doing to my doors Carol what are you doing so he's trying to speak with no no no we know he was here Carol don't start all that he said he must have gone up there he said the ladders are there he couldn't as he said he might have drawn up a pair of ladders they go upstairs and And they think I've gone along the building and got out over there.

52:44I'm in bed next door, right? So I slipped them there. So now we're getting up to about two years. So what happens is I end up at another gaff. And so I decided to go past Carroll's. And one of the things I was told they used to do then, they used to do illegal taps. So they put up a tent outside a BT tent. And they'd hook it up. It's illegal. It's never a legal one. And I rung her from the west end. I said, listen. And I said, I've been past your gaff. Be careful what you say on the phone. Cut a long story. I'm at another gaff. And I'm using a call box. And one day, as I use a call box, I see the same sort of tent.

53:22And I thought, you go cold. I thought, I bet it's on me. So I say what I'm saying. Put the phone down. I go in. And I get on them. Right? I thought, fuck me. They're going to do me. They won't do you at night. Do you in the morning. So I come out. I get a taxi to Islant, where there's a massive estate. And I walk in. to this day, I hide, I look down, and I see them looking for me. But they go off, they think I must be in the house. So I don't go back there. And I think that was the last time I slipped them. So what happens now? I've, my options have all changed. I can't, I can't get traveller's checks.

53:57When I go on a meet to get some traveller's checks, some ID, kid said to me, I can't believe it's you. He said, that's why they've been round. He said, he said, you must have someone who's lollied you. He said, because they're all round here. It's only a bit of ID. He said, I didn't notice for you he said he said he said someone's name he said you know he he introduced me to meet him but he didn't say to him it was me right he said he'd be in the car so he said russ he said you must have someone who's no good he said because i'm telling you there's no one there's no drug firms around here it's fraud mob right so what happens is i i didn't really think it was i didn't really think i'd get caught but what happens is this yeah i must have been trusting someone from the West End, not a proper pal, but from Traveller's Checks or ID.

54:38So what happens is, my very last day, I'm now going to South Africa. I'm going to go to Tenerife and I'm going to go across on a boat. So what happens is, I said to a kid, I said, I don't fancy him there in this cafe, I'm actually paranoid, he'll fucking need to be on you by now, right? I said, fair enough. So what happens is, I go to Windsor, I go to Reading, put four grand or eight grand Traveller's cut it up with a kid. We're now going to have something to eat. We're now driving to the airport. And I said, don't fancy the van. He said, Russ, he said, there's vans everywhere. I said, go straight and then do a, suddenly if the van come with us.

55:16So he goes twice round the roundabout. And I said to him, listen, I don't fancy it. I fancy Swerver. I'll go back. I'll drop out the aeroplane to the reef. What happens is I get to the airport. It gives me a big hug, right? This kid's not the grass. He gives me the hug. He says, over. Now, I would have gone to South Africa and worked in someone's company, building company or something. I can't do that, but he'd have taught me. I go through the airport. I have something to eat, a glass of water, coffee. And I enjoy Sims on the thing. I'm walking through. The door opens, shuts. as I go like that the the six closet I fit their customs I didn't think that was police right you know because I thought maybe I've been recognized fucking sitting in the gaff it opened up what seems to be the problem he went the problem Russell is about a million pounds worth of travelers checks it wasn't that much I'd done he went you're nicked so they nicked me put me in a room they couldn't get clearance to take me straight out so I'm sitting there for five minutes like this right like that sorry so what happens is we're walking through and they're chipping charging they're making a joke we thought you'd be out in hollywood now or thing this that and the other all little jokes they're saying all names that i've used in hotels or for properties where i've rented so that's it i get charged right i get um I get, they don't keep me there.

56:51I go to court the next day and you go to Lambeth, right? They hadn't put me, I was on the helix, but I went to Lambeth with everyone else. What happens is, at the time, everyone, the police was having, it was overcrowding. This is 1986. It was over, 1988. It was overcrowding. So what they've done, I think they dug me out on purpose, not the police, but the court mob at Lambeth. they've put six of us up towards Halifax other places are going into different police stations so it's like three or four hundred unlucky people or lucky people going into police custody so what happens is I'm cuffed to another grant I said do you want to try and make one if we get a chance he went no so what happens I'm on the coach outside Lambeth now remember I've only been nicked after two years I was on the trot he's got the door open and I've got like um I've got like a a thumb that I can, it's hard to say, but I can put my thumb in.

57:46What he's done, he hasn't put it on as tough as what he should do. And I'm going like that. I got it to the knuckle and one of the cousins got up to check the cuffs. I had to push it back and it caused me a bump, right? It's come around going like that. I couldn't get back up. I get to, we now go to Halifax. I think the door shut and we went. So I missed my chance by about a minute. If I'd have been a bit quicker i would have got out so anyway i now go to halifax after an eight hour journey and they all know the kids on with they go fuck you know two robbers there this geezer saw the dove geezer cutting someone two two two arm robbers here all right she was unlucky so anyway what happens is i go in the halifax station and when i get off the coser he didn't even cuff me he had it like that and I thought I could have chinned him, but I'm only looking at about a three stretch, right?

58:39Maybe three and a half years. For them all in Quidsworth? It wasn't a million quids worth, no. But they had that, don't they? They got it down to a hundred Groundsworth. They say that, but what you've got to understand, right, they just do it so that you go guilty and explain what's yours, because if you don't, it's a lot of headache. So it's a bit like saying, go guilty is really what it is, right? So anyway, what happens is, I have murders with the police right so they fucked me off to some other gaff he said you're going to a hard gaff now it's a big big police station and they're expecting that, they're not having your bollocks how long have we got, how long have we been talking about so what's happened this year I get there and so there was a sergeant right, he said you can play football here, six handed in that yard he said you've got a skipping rope he said you can get nice and fit for your next escape grant right that was his thing never he never stopped saying it right that was his little thing so while i'm now i'm about 20 handed he let me have a visit with my Swedish girlfriend with a closed cell door and there was murders with some DI so you can't fucking trust him in the cell when you're only but he didn't tell me a favor right you know it was a causal but he done me a favor so he's always saying about your next escape your next escape so it's my turn to now go it's two weeks later you know i've now got a court appearance right and i might go back to the scrubs i might go to the scrubs sorry or i might go back into the police thing it depends on the luck of the draw or what they decide at lambeth so i'm on the coach it's about three in the morning we've traveled eight hours all right i said to the kid here if we get a chance to escape he said i don't want to escape so they said who wants to go for a piss so i said me so one kid And they was all scuffling around, and I was thinking to myself, you're not really concentrating.

1:00:31All of a sudden, it was like it was a bunch of old billies going to the coast. They don't realize I've got someone desperado here. I will take a chance and go. But how am I going to get out of the cuff? So what happens is, Koza comes over, and he cuffs this hand to his appropriate... That's right, he turned around, put me there, and what I'd done, I went like that. I don't know why I'd done it, right? I put my hand like that. So the kid, the kid's sick going like that, and he put the cuffs over, so now it's on a bigger sort of wrist. And he went, it's dirty. As I brought my thumb away, I thought, I'll slip that easy, it's no trouble at all.

1:01:12So I get up, I had to wait for some other kid. I get up, now, they should have been too handy with me, because I'm escapee, but it didn't follow the procedure that they should have, that would have been in place. so we're walking there's the m1 now it's three in the morning and as we walk i thought should i go now and i should have gone then the reason being when i get to the other pierce there might be a cause of weight comes to weight outside anyway i go in the squalor with him he said you want to go first with me i said you go first right he turned around right in the corner i went like that it was easy i went like that and as i went like that i seen go i'm gone i go across the m1 and i'm off right they didn't have the bottle to come across they wasn't going to do that so I run and I see a railway line I thought well my dad's feeling me going he runs along a railway line but I thought no nip that out I fell into a river and it gave me pneumonia I've got a water on the lung I find a park like a without lorries I get on the lorry I undo it and I get into there's two big things I climb up and I hide I'm there for eight hours about seven in the morning Lorry driver comes, and we're driving.

1:02:22I'm thinking, this is it, I'm sweet. All of a sudden, he's got a stopover, a roadblock. This is eight hours later. So I heard the coser say, could anyone have gotten this lorry? Now, he should have said, yeah, because it was open. But he didn't say that. He went, no, no one could have gotten this. What's the problem with him? We want to look in the thing. So I'm thinking, I'm fucked, right? He said, you've got a torch. So he gives him a torch. They open the things, and the coser climbs up. puts a light down on that side, climbs down. Now he's got to come this side. There's only one more thing.

1:02:54I couldn't have got out. I'm shivering. It's really freezing. And because I'm so through with a fall in the river or a canal. I only swam from here to over there. So anyway, he didn't bother looking in the thing. So I'm thinking I'm double sweet. So I went to a lorry park and I climbed out. I said, I'm this guy. He said, fuck it. He said, fuck it. Was you on the thing all the time? I went, yeah. I said, would you give me a lift where you're going to next? He said, yeah. He said, but I've got to load up for an hour. I said, I can't wait. I've got to go. So I go. I climb out of this place. And I go to ring my mate, Big Jim.

1:03:30And as I ring him, I couldn't remember the number. My mind went blank. I couldn't remember the fucking number. So some kid walked past about 18, 17. I said, mate, I said, would you live around here? He said, yeah. I said, you live with me? He said, mum. So you live on your own? He said, yeah. He said, do you like the police? No. I said, what it is, I've escaped from... He went, you're an escapee. I said, what do you mean? He said, it's all in the fucking news, mate. I said, would your mum let me stay? He went, I think so. I said, I'll give her some money. I said, I can't remember my mate's fucking number.

1:03:59But I swerved for whatever reason. I said, have you got a cab number? And he did. I said, ring me a cab. So this cab driver comes. So what happens is, I get a taxi. As he's going somewhere, I said, do you want to take me to Cambridge? This would be an error. And he said to me, I said how much he said 50 quid I had 25 quid on me he said take me in town so he said well there's roadblocks here police I said can you avoid the roadblocks he don't know I'm the guy but he suspects I might be so he avoids them and I get out so I get on a coach to Cambridge and on the way I thought there was something in me and I thought get off the coach I didn't so anyway I get fucking pulled in on the way to Cambridge and there's police there and they get on the coach.

1:04:46So I went, oh, fuck it now. I've gone down a swimming pool and I put a jacket over my thing, but I should have got rid of my top. And I didn't. The reason I didn't get rid of it, I probably wanted to fucking say I escaped in this, some ego shit. I should have got rid of it. So he's come up to me. He said, where you come from? I said, I just come to be with my grandma. What's the problem with you? I put on the fucking mad eye. He said, what a problem. He said, he looks at me. he said you look like someone who's a scared, I said you look like someone who's a scared, what colour eyes you've got? I knew what, I knew, what colour eyes have I got here, what colour eyes?

1:05:19Blue or green? Well they said blue, which I guess right, right, so he said blue, I said my eyes are green, my eyes are green, but they look kind of blue, right, so I knew that, right, so anyway. He fucks off, and I thought I'd done him, now I've been in loads of banks over the years, and you judge, it's the body language, It's a bit like a boxer, you can tell before it happens. And I thought I was sweet. I thought I'm sweet. I thought, God, fucking hell. I knew to get off earlier. I had it in my head, get off, get off, get off. And I didn't. That's what I'm talking about. You get an opportunity, and you don't take it.

1:05:57And this is all through my life. I always get the first opportunity. So, he come back. He went, what it is? He said, let me see what you've got underneath. He went, it's a yellow top. It's a yellow, it was like a rugby thing. so you have to come down the station. So as we get off, I'm going, I said, fucking hell, man, what the fuck are you not a problem, man? You okay, don't bother. So as I get off, I bolt. I run down the dead end and they dump me. So I go to the station and they bang me up. Because I come in, he said, there's been a burglary. He said, you're getting an internal surge. I said, go and get you.

1:06:28I'm freezing now, right? I'm like that. I can't. I'm gone. My temperature's just dropped. They call the doctor. He leaves the cell and he doesn't lock the cell, right? he's gone three along gone into another room i just bolted out i've gone gone further down i could see there's three people there talking i couldn't go there i go into the back room where they do the prints there's only a skylight i couldn't find the thing you do it so i stood on the center thing and i'm going like that i had about another three minutes it was going like that's really slow it wouldn't go up another two or three minutes i'd have been out anyway i heard him coming i hit and he's just come out he said what's it we said what are you doing acting silly I said, I'm not having no internals.

1:07:10He said, no, you're going to hospital. So I go to the hospital, and what happens is this. I'm down in the hospital for a three-day thing. I've got something on the lung, water on the lung, and there's a coser there, yeah? So there's now an argument. Some woman gives them tea and biscuits, but not me. I said, excuse me, can I have tea and biscuits? He said, I'll see what I can do. I said, see what you can do. I said, they're not ill with pneumonia. I said, so why can't I have tea and biscuits, right? She said, well, I'll get you some. I said, yeah, but you give them some, surely you should have.

1:07:47So because it ain't the Hilton or whatever. I said, what would you know about the Hilton? So that was an argument. She comes back with the tea and biscuits, and he went to me. Anyway, he said, you didn't get far on this escape, did you? Right? I said, I don't say nothing, right? So where they've cuffed me, it was like a thing behind me. and I think I could have unscrewed it at night. Got it off. You might have to crash one. So when my girlfriend came with my mum, I'm whispering in her, I said, we're on second floor, the first floor. She said, we're on the first floor. I said, is there stairs or a lift?

1:08:25She went, there is stairs. I went, okay. I said, I've got one more go. What's happened is my pal, Jimmy's little brother, he come and got me or tried to come and get me. a guy called Tony who was a fighter and someone else who was a bit of a knife man they've come down I don't know this I'm a kid right but I'm thinking two in the morning I want to try and undo the screw thing they've come down couldn't find me and the police had been called so in the morning they said you're going back to the station I said I've got fucking pneumonia they went it doesn't matter so they take me back to the station three in the morning two police arrive take me onto the van small van put me on there I said, what are you doing?

1:09:03Put me arm there. I said, you're fucking joking, ain't you? I said, you're joking, right? Put me arm like this, right? Go in the front of the van. It's a small green pan with fucking things like that. I said, there's rules. I said, you can't do this. He said, rules for you, Russell. He said, do you not know the trouble you've caused? I said, if I give a fuck. But he went, do you not know the trouble you've caused? You think the rules apply to you? I thought, well, it's right, isn't it, right? So I copped it, sweet. And as I was driving through London, I was thinking of people in their beds. like with their missus maybe the dog on the bed and all that it was a vivid thought and i remember thinking and the streets all empty it was just empty so we arrive at this gaff now and cuff me put me in a cell he said no he can't he has to be at the end cell and no one's to open him unless you're two-handed so i think i've had three escapes now yeah no not yet i've had two i've had two so in the next day i've got my food i said my food's not hot enough i want to eat it up so because i like young cosy older than me when we can't eat up i said don't tell me you can't eat up i said i said you would want your own food eat it up know what you're like or your tea i said you'll have a um one of them things that uh microwave i said you'll have a microwave yeah he fucks off he eats my food up i said we do my tea i said why i'm arguing the key tea's gone cold right?

1:10:29He was taking a piss. I said, mate, you either look after him, mate, or you don't. We're 20-handed in the cells, because it's all overcrowded. So I'm back with kids here, right? So anyway, 10 of them, 20 of them. So I didn't have biscuits. I said, where's my dessert? I know you get a dessert. So he's got the ump. So he's gone back and talked about all this. So all of a sudden, about nine in the morning, an old school kick-it-the-death slaggo comes. He pulls down the thing. It's about 45, 50, sergeant. He went with his trongeon. He said, let me tell you, right? He said, you're in South London now, not fucking Halifax or whatever, because they've also got your report.

1:11:18I'm a mithering cunt. you know i mean i'm always moaning about something and driving them mad right so i know he's got the report when he knows that i've driven him mad he said see you one more word out of you son he said you'll get the hiding of your life and then we'll take you to hospital but he puts up the thing right so now goes by so so that goes by so i get on the buzzer Cosr comes, I said get the sergeant here please, what's it about, I said I want to apologise to him so he comes down, opens the thing, piss in his face, the next geezer, I don't get him in the boat, I get him there so now I'm expecting to get killed, right it weren't that I was the toughest kid, it was just I'm arguably the most determined, right I don't know why I've done it but I've done it, so I've called it on, right They don't come for me.

1:12:11So I had a pen in the hand. I'm like that. I couldn't sleep. All of a sudden, door opens. I'm thinking I'm going to get back. They threw piss. Like, well, they pissed in the urn. Missed me. But I couldn't sit, come through. I had to lay on the floor, which is more vulnerable. So they come next day. They went, listen, you can behave yourself. You can go on association with everyone else, but you've got to behave yourself, right? So I come out on association. that was it. So now they come for me for the scrubs. I'm in a van and they cuff me like this. So I thought, fuck it, I can kick that door.

1:12:45So all the way, when we get to Chelsea, I start kicking the door. They say, don't do that, don't do that, Russ, don't do that. Don't stop kicking the fucking door, right? It don't go. When I get to the scrubs, they're all lined up. McVicker's son, leery cunt, scapes, thing. They're all lined up. So I go on the wing. They didn't batter me or nothing, but it was like, they're looking at me. When I come out, my first court appearance, next court appearance, right? I had murders with the screws on the reception. They said, you better not come back. I said, I'm fucking coming back. When I come back, they battered me, right?

1:13:21Go back to the wing. Didn't get an edge, but they battered me, right go back to the wing Nicky Dunford's there who got Nick with the most wanted robber in the country at the time he was there there's a couple of murderers Winston Silcott was there somewhere lifed off on the other wing and my dad had done a book with him so I start getting nicked on the wing verbal abuse all different things I go to the block lose my TV didn't get the TV had no phone calls and you had no toilet in your cell then. Slop out. So I was always in trouble. So on a visit, I said to my mate Gary and Kevin, I said, I can escape.

1:14:04I said, I need to know the exit from the court, left where it goes. Is that on remand? It's just on remand now, right? I've worked something out, which I'll get to. So I said, what goes right, what goes left? So the next visit, they said, you go across. You need to go left, Russ. Right, you're walking to loads of police and all this, right? You need to go left. So I said, I explained to them how I would do it. So what was happening? What was this? When I'm going to court, they put you in cuffs and the squad who deal with the E-cat, I don't think I was A-cat then, I was pot A. They put you in the van, they have an escort behind and one in front.

1:14:44And the drivers are cool. Says we're going there. The squad has got all fucking stories about we nearly had you here, we nearly had you in this. And he said, he said, We was 30-handed, son, right? He said, you fucking walked past you with an hat and a fucking pair of glasses. And he said, it was only when you got in the car. He said, but our car's all facing the wrong way. But whenever I go somewhere, I'll get faced the way that he's not, can't get caught in traffic or it's further away where you've got a chance of driving or straight away. He said, one of us got on you. He said, you just drove off to the thing.

1:15:12He said, we had you that many times. He said, we couldn't believe how lucky you was, right? That's what he said to me, right? So anyway, when we go to the court, it's a shutter alright you come up I'm cuffed but if you was on a normal routine you walk up and you just walk to your cell they just go go to the cells and you choose any cell but I'm on an E list so when we get to the top he uncuffs me I can hear the thing going like that open but he shuts the door alright he shuts the door so I can't run so I thought alright so then they say what cells are going they've got to designate a cell for an A or an E man so I'm standing by the door whereas if I was normal routine thing I know now the van goes out and it's waiting for more sweat boxes in the same routine it drives out and another sweat box comes in all different kids coming in about 20 kids so I said to my solicitor produce me every week so they said Mr Grant wants to be produced every week so what happens is i get reduced every week and i said to my pals within 10 weeks that that door at the top will be open but there's two causes that i couldn't work out how i would barge two causes out of the way anyway on about the third week i go and i take my dad sent me this book in called the unbearable likeness of being right because he's an intellectual right he sent this book in so what this is this is we get to the top I hear the thing going shut the door is open which they should have shut right and he uncuffs me right and I'm standing there but there's two of them so I says I've got a book in there I said have a look so he's gone he's gone over to the book and he's gone fucking hell that's a it was on top of my my property like my gear that I had He's gone over.

1:17:08He said, fucking hell, that's a thing he bought. I said, yeah, my dad sent it in, right? So he's had a little thing like that. I said, I'll just show you something. So as I walk across, this cos I stand still, I bolt. Shut the door, shut the door. And there was a screw there called Nobby. It was an odd sort of screw, right? And he knew I was a cheeky cunt, right? He was about 50, but he was in charge of the gaff, right? So I bolt. So I'm running down and see if they're panicked like kids. Ah, shut the door, shut the door, shut the gate. but it don't matter the fucking gate is like that it shuts like that first geezer bang he hits the deck second geezer this is not a punch or anything I barged him out of the way but the third geezer had a little bit more class than the other two I got past them the door is like three quarters open I'm free I can see the street I'm free and what he'd done he was 60 he was twice he was twice the haze these other guys he he he didn't stand in front of me he put his foot out and I caught his foot.

1:18:09He bashed his head and got four stitches, right? I didn't punch him. He fell against the van. His head fucking wavered, right? I fell into the street and as I hit the deck, because he's coming in perfect, if he was over there, he wouldn't have got me. If he was there, I would have held onto him. I wouldn't have fallen. He just kicked me right in the fucking, like, like, perfect. So I'm like that. They jump on me ten-handed and they can't believe they was like that. Oh God, I'm fucking sick. Because I swear to you, I fell over. I didn't fall over, I stumbled. It was a stumble. So that's how I get caught.

1:18:46So basically, cut a long story. Go back to the scrubs. And I'm getting nicked for things all the time. It's a naughty block. So the most violent screws I ever come across was at the scrubs. 20 of them get extra charge. 20 of them go to court one day, three years later. And some of them go to prison. Those are the most violent, horrible cunts.

1:19:08So, I've gone down the block about six times, I've done two months block, block don't bother me, right? It's escalating, but on one of the nickings, this is the funniest nicking, my mum's given me some clothes, there's a 50p in the thing, I just left it on the side, I get nicked for it, go down the fucking block, and the PO in charge hated me, and he used to almost shake at looking at me, right? So he's standing behind the governor, and he's going on about the red writing on me, you know, like this trouble, that trouble. And he went, 50p, what's your explanation? I said, what happens is, the tooth fell out, Governor.

1:19:40So put it under the pillar. He went, I said, the tooth fairy left the 50p. Right? So they've all got the screws. But the Governor found it funny. He went, all right, Grant. He said, look, go back. So I was going to give you three days. He said, but I'll tell you what, go back. He said, but please don't be down here in the next fucking week. He didn't sweat. Off I go. I take a lot of nickings. I do about three months block. Right? I'm only a kid, and I never got dragged to the block. There's only three times I say, I don't need the cuffs, I'll walk. I'm 24 and the biggest troublemaker on the wing by far.

1:20:17So this is my plan. Scaffolding coming. So I said to 7A men, we'll climb up on the scaffold on the roof, and I'll smash the roof off if we don't get our demands met, which is basically less brutality and other things, right? so they're all robbers murderers this that and the other so that's sweet so we're getting ready with it all and the day before we're about to go on the roof because it was just scaffolds you had to pull some metal framing away this was on the prison yard right I assaulted someone who was a bad bad fucking like I don't and I say what he'd done to someone who was terrible. I bashed him on the yard.

1:21:07The screws went, didn't drag me off, right? I've had incidents. So Mickey, who's a robber, as I come up with my dinner, we're 12 hours away the next morning when I go on the roof. The screws going, fucking, he's giving him the every treatment. So I've gone up behind him. I nudged him. Are we getting there, you cunt? I said, go and fight him. So he's jumped out. He's going, I'll fight you, Grant. right so I've gone up to him and I've just kicked him here he's hit the penny and now the worst screws I've ever met and they're on their way up right so I jump in the the thing you could move your beds over and you could get the end off the the end of things like a stick like a metal thing we smash a few things in the thing me and Mickey are behind the thing and they come up and they're mob handed and we're now going to get killed because you get killed there for giving them cheek anyway but i sort of got away with it a bit and i see the po like that and i think we're gone so there was a there was a screw there who was in charge of the self-defense he was a judo or something champion he was a polite man he wasn't a bully this man he come to the front of the finger all behind him on the other side he went grunt he said if you go now i promise you can walk i said if i if if me or him get done i said you have my word i will never ever leave it i will come back he went to me man to man you can walk to the block through the thing down with the bed i come out and marched me along and they put me in the downstairs cell they come in 15 and be right so i was i was nervous you know i mean i thought i didn't think they'd do me but i thought if they're gonna and the po went to me if you ever come on this wing again he said i will that for you.

1:22:52Now what he'd done at the Lambeth, he'd cuffed the kid round a post and beat him with a trungeon for 20 minutes, this cunt. So I go to the block and I'm now on good order and discipline, being subversive, and I can't go on the wing no more, that's it. There's people in the block on the circuit who basically are in for more, not more serious things, but, so what they said was, he was going to smash the roof up, right? There must have been a grass somewhere, not on the amen, but other people. I've got 50 people knew, you know what I mean? We were going to go up. And he was going to take prison hostages, staff hostages.

1:23:31Well, that's not right. How would you take hostages onto a roof? A load of bollocks, right? But that keeps me on what you call... So the governor comes down. He says, before this had happened, when I come down on one of the cases, he went to me, this governor, when they come around, they open the door, I say, good morning, morning. He went to me, why are you here? I said what happened not that incident something else he went he sat when you go on the nick and he went you're coming here all the time he said you're mixing with because you go on the yard with other inmates who was on the block IRA geezer I met who'd done 28 he was a warrior I met some real proper people right he said he said you're probably looking at three four five years he said he said you said you're going to end up on a circuit on a four stretch or five He said, why, why, why are you putting yourself in this situation?

1:24:19Now I'm back. He's just giving up on me now. There's no fucking hope. Right? So someone in the thing I wanted to have done, it was a mobile fucking rapist or something. And I'm giving the orders from, from bits of paper. They intercept a bit of paper and they've had enough. Right? So what happened was they said, listen, you're going to fucking Brixton. Now, Nicky Dumford said to me, they lager you up. And you sort of go like that. You end up very, you end up fucked up. Like a fucking spastic for a couple of weeks. They've hung a geezer there and all that. So the taffy screw come down to me and said, Russ, please listen to me.

1:25:07Please don't carry on there like you have here. He said, they will fucking kill you or do something to you and you won't be the same again, son. So when you go there, please don't get in trouble like you have here, right? I said, sweet, gov, yeah? The van comes. I'm off. I'm off to a fucking bad gaff, right? And I'm not coming out of the block. I'm fucked. So I go to the thing. I'm only a kid, you know what I mean? 24. He says, I get to the block. They arrive 12-handed. They're over there. And I looked up. I was cleaning the plate or something. I was doing something. He said, listen, we'll give you one chance.

1:25:44So we'll say to the governor, you can go on the wing. He said, because we think it was only the ones on the wing you were in conflict with. So we're going to tell you this. If you come back here, you will regret it. So he said to me. Go in front of the governor. Governor on the wing. So I hope I don't see you down here like all this. I've had about 10, 12 nickings. 10 nickings. I've done three months block. all right block don't don't don't bother me mate with a with a radio without but they give you thing but what had happened was they should take your mattress out and i should sit on the pipe and by the time i've done so much block it's really tiring i've got poles and the pain that you would get sometimes is excruciating and i had it for about two years so it was dangerous so don't sit on on a pipe and years later if i sat on wet ground it would hit me but the pain the sharp things it's like fucking unbearable so that was a mistake I didn't know that so I go on the wing and the first night the light wouldn't turn off I thought I'm going to smash the fucking light but you don't get many chances in prison you have to take it because yeah especially if you're escaping every chance you get is this all still in remand?

1:26:58yeah I haven't done this is all the first nine months of my jail I've done four months before right and this is like all in nine months i've escaped three times and i had all the heck right so i was gonna smash the thing but i thought please you know don't so i didn't so screws come along that red light i said listen you right i said the fucking light don't don't it don't turn off i said you've put me here on purpose i smashed the light i said just flash the fucking light on my face so he went okay next morning it was the best gaff in the world you're so chilled so anyway Gary Wilson who was at the Scrubs, used to work with Fraser, right?

1:27:40He'd never get on him, he's a bit like Ferris, very smart guy, polite. I get to, when I get there, his thing is all sealed off, right?

1:27:53So, Ron Easterbrook, as I'm going to church, he knows what I call my uncle Billy Gentry. Now, Billy Gentry is not my uncle, but he married my dad's sister. He does 18 years out of 18 years, right? He does six out of ten. No, ten out of fifteen, and afterwards, he gets a fucking, does six out of ten. So he's hardcore, right? While I'm on the trot, I meet this geezer called Ron Easter, but what do you think he's done? He's got Semtex, he's a double A man, no, he's a single A man, he's got Semtex. So when he put it at the thing and blown the top of the, you know, you get a thing that opens an emergency hatch.

1:28:36Yeah, like a sunroof? Like a sunroof. I know someone who kicked it out. So he had long legs, but he could kick, he kicked it, kicked it, kicked it. He got it out and he got it out of the scrubs as they pulled in, right? But he got called 10 minutes later down the road. So he said to me, if you kick things, they can go, right? So anyway, Easterbrook has blown the thing, but he couldn't, he didn't do the bolt. so he's now double a'd as i see him i see him in the i'd had a late night with him i took seven in the morning him in gentry right i remember when we come out this gaff he was driving i was thinking fucking hell i hope we don't get stopped there's no way we was going to jail to free this you know what i mean right so anyway i said i was wrong i said fucking hell he went i said mate i said you blew it i was i was like in awe you know i mean like i said fucking hell and i went like that through the thing.

1:29:26I said, lovely to see you. He said, good luck at court, son. So when they take me to court, I go with a geezer called Gigi, who'd done the, he'd done like 20 mil out of the

1:29:40safety deposit gaff. Here was Wilson and I'm out. So I'll give Gigi a pen, I go in the court and it's 96 grand got it down to 96 grand right it wouldn't matter if it's 200 grand 300 grand underground it's all the same thing so what what what he said is he going to do four years oh he liked my my girlfriend she spoke for me and he didn't like my mum so much because he knows my dad and all that you know he was polite so what happens is i says look he says look is he gonna do four years, right? He said, so you can apply for a pro after two. He went, this is what he said to my barrister, he said, it's not the, it's not the traveler, he said, it's not the unsigned traveler's check, because they said this is all part of a million pound thing, and he's part of a firm, I wasn't part of a firm, just me and one geezer, but they made it sound worse than what he was.

1:30:33He went, no, and he was right, he said, what concerns me is the, is the book and cards. he said he's been going out every day since he's whatever age over a two-year period religiously he said this i'm very concerned about he didn't care about the unsigned and the big thing it's all this and that he wasn't thinking a fuck about that right and the other thing about traveler's checks is you pay halfway and i was giving half of the profit away so it sounds like it's a lot it's not i've probably done about quarter of a mill's worth in in reality but book and cards, I've done more, or not more, but as much, and it's all my money, you know what I mean, like, say, you know, but they don't get all the stuff back, right, so the book and card stuff, he knew I was going out every single day to a bank, and he didn't like that, with the traveller seats, you might go one day there, a few weeks, and another day there, it's not every day, and that's what he got the hump about, so anyway, I now go to Wandsworth, and everyone said to me, you must be be careful at Wandsworth, they will kill you.

1:31:34So I arrive at Wandsworth and I had my top button done up on my stripy shirt. I thought, fuck, you need this geezer. And we go through. A little fella come in. He went, hello, Grant. All right, gov, all right? Didn't want no trouble with him. I was told that was worse than Scrubs. They wasn't, but they was. He pulled out a little blade, like a little, not a flick knife, but a pen knife, a couple of inches long. he starts going into into the wood on the side he's saying one visit a month food is terrible and if you fuck around here they will bat you like proper beat you he said you ain't been bad yeah something like that i'll only take two batons but he was letting me know right and i'm looking at him he's doing this thing he says i wish you a happy journey here Grant, fucking no, I need this guy, he's a short guy, yeah.

1:32:32I go on the wing. All of a sudden, an old screw comes. He says, do you want some slippers? He says, yeah, size 9. He bought me these brand new slippers. That was the only bit of kindness I got. When I go on the wing, they put me in the cell near the office. I'm E-Dub, you're always in the yellow fucking suit. Oh, that's right, the next morning, two screws come in, strip search. You get strip search once a week. He took all my photos, looking at my gear. He says, is that your bird, is it? I said yeah you've been good looking ain't you I said yeah right I fucking knew I was going to hate this gaff I hate it right it's like I hated him straight away so anyway but it wasn't as bad as the scrubs so anyway I go on the wing PO went like that I go in the office he went he went see this he said any of this here we're covering you like a ton of bricks you understand I went yeah but I had one secret weapon Billy Gentry's on the on the food thing and they knew they called him they said he's He's his uncle, he's not my uncle, he's my aunt, his ex-husband.

1:33:35The T-Boy said, I heard one of them say, do not spin Grant when Gentry's on the wing. So they won't fancy with me, done 18 out of 18. You talk about Charlie Bronson, God bless him, yeah, I have respect for Charlie, but this was the first, where they hosed you down with a trough at the back of the scrubs for Gentry. and what he was about he's got two daughters one is not he's not the father of they're my aunties daughters and the other is his uh his real daughter they wouldn't let him see the other daughter and he fought them to the death got smashed to pieces smashed screws but it went on forever so he's the equivalent of fraser so fraser's in the jail doing three and a half stretch right so thank you yeah he got three and a half when he come out he got three and a half stretch for something right while i'm on the trot i meet him at gaff and i say oh i said frankie it's just in someone's office like a manager of a nightclub i said i'm uh i said you know my mum he said what's your mum's name i said uh julian mcvicar he went no he said hello boy he said how's your dad it's all right i said i've still got the mom he gave my mom a tenner which was a lot then when I was born and she bought some some bonds like what numbers type things and we still got them so I said we've still got the bonds my mum bought the tent with it said you give my mum a tenner he didn't really like my dad too much right but he had mutual respect right my dad said it was game it was game but he was like Richardson gang my dad don't get on the Richardson's anyway so he's there I speak to him and I have a shower so I'm off to have a shower and I'm pretty quick in the shower I have the shower I've just got all the suds off me all of a sudden the shower goes off after three minutes there's a kid with all suds like suds screw it no wipe them off so that's the gaff you're in the food was terrible right you had beans curry beans on a Monday and a paste like a paste thing it was terrible it was awful awful gaff but I never really got in any trouble there I got nicked once and I end up next door to Mickey Adams when I come off the book he's always getting nicked and we become pals so what happens we get sent to where do we get sent to is this still again on the mind No, I'm just, I'm on my first two months.

1:36:01I'm on my first five months as convicted. What did you get? I got four years, maybe do two and a half. It depends if you've got parole. And then you're still thinking of trying to escape instead of just... No, not then, because... Did you just accept that you were in then? There's no point where... Gentry was going to try and make one from Wano, and I said, well, I'll come with you. He said, but you'll probably get the parole, so why go? And my door was near the office. The kid said to me, that's the worst sell. He said, they come here. If it goes off, they come in there straight away with us.

1:36:32He said, don't get in trouble here. He said, they come straight away. Were you still looking to do the toes at any time after being sentenced? No, there was no point. There was no point. What was your mum saying to it when she sees her boy getting sentenced four and a half years, four years later? No, my mum's up for it. My mum always said, she said... Did she say that it's semblance for you and your dad with kind of digging down the same path? Well, she couldn't have dreamt what was up ahead. Because of the escapes, yeah. You know, she said to me, look, if the screws do something to you and all that, like they're brutal, doesn't mean to say you've got to be brutal back.

1:37:06She said, but stand up to them. But it doesn't mean to say because they take a little bit, you should then do something violent back. She said, because just because they're a bad man, don't make it so you've got to become a bad man. She didn't want my dad to smash screws and everything. I mean, he's a fighter. He's a tough gun. And he hates them. I didn't hate him in the same way, but I'm more happy to go lucky than my dad. My dad's like more sort of shallow and sort of, he's cold. I'm not like that. My mum said, don't be, don't turn into, she didn't say an animal, but don't start smashing screws on the head with tools is what she meant.

1:37:47Did she say there was a possibility you can down that route though with all the escapes? No, she didn't see all that, but she knew as a kid, like, I could be a bit of an handful sometimes. like very young but I was pretty good from seven onwards but she always sensed that with me she didn't think I'd be a criminal she didn't know I was such a I only got caught shoplifting once and I cried because my mum was really upset she's an honest woman I had a nan and granddad nearby you know honest people my granddad was a window clean we're in a criminal family but my mum's going out with John McVicar before that she was going out of Falco so she knew proper gangster she knew Frankie Fraser Frankie Fraser likes my mum my dad don't like Frankie Fraser but he respects him he said he's very brave so when you were in prison was your dad in contact with you was he telling you to try and screw the head or was he just kind of accepting who you were no he doesn't say screw the head but I can't remember if we were talking then he sent me a letter he got stopped in the car drunk and he just ran off and he'd give himself in the next morning and the coser said because if you my dad knows a few little tricks like this right because i went if that's what you can do drunk mr mcvicker i would like i wouldn't like to see what you can do sober he said we're not going to waste our time with interview if they if they talk to you if you let them talk to you you're in their custody but if you just get out the car and run you're not so there's nothing illegal in it right i remember him sending that in the in the letter to me right so i was writing to him but i can't remember what happened after that and i certainly wouldn't tell him all the things i wouldn't tell him all the trouble he would he wouldn't like that so i now me and mick adams go to a gaff so when we get there he's being split up for me but they give him the right act because his brother patrick that's on a seven he smashed the screw on the nose broke his nose and he was on my he was on the wing holes so he's gone the other wing i said see you later Mickey right anyway they said workshop I said I've got a single cell I said a single cell I've got a booking on all the rules while I'm down the block I'm meeting all these fucking older people and I've got a booking on all the rules I nicked them over not hot enough food not hot enough in the cell not getting a time a timed hour there's all different rules I learned all these rules and when I got the booking which was through a guy who my dad knew directly they went it's down the block oh it's gonna take us to the next level I drove them mad down the block right so everywhere I'd go on there's that so I get to this film get my single cell right which was nice of them I remembered a bit of fish it was like fish and chips and I I can remember the fish I've never tasted fish in a year roughly like that it was no grease no grease big portions I couldn't believe it was unbelievable if you knew how bad the food was at once or whatever it was terrible if you've got six slices screw you've got to take the first three slices off grant take them off you have to throw them in the bin because you needed them to make your peanut butter sandwiches anyway me and adams get split up i said no i'm allergic to dust he went i'm allergic to you you're going maximum security he says you're not going to drive he says that to the words you're not going to drive us mad here so on that there's an old boy screw but he sort of found me funny.

1:41:09I cuffed to a screw and we're off to Albany. Johnny Dunford's there. Winston Silcott, the cop killer. You heard of Winston Silcott? Yeah. Yeah. He was innocent. You know what I mean, right? So anyway. He'd been down the block, so I'd never seen him. He was next door to me, but he was at Albany. Jimmy Deal, the robber. Ricky Peters, the drug dealer. The IRA geezer who was one of the Guildford or one of the something four. Guildford Four. Or the other mob. By the minimum sex. No, it was the Guildford Four, I think, right? So Jimmy Dill said to me, he never got out. He got out that year. He won the appeal.

1:41:47And he went on to marry one of the Kennedys. So he was there. I said, running racist. So first thing I get there, there's a fucking rapist or someone on the spur. So I said, mate, you can't be next to me. You go tomorrow, you go. You go to hospital. So I've only been there a day. This geezer's gone, right? I don't know where he went. Numbers, probably, right? So I'm only there a day. But what was funny, it was really cosy, like a beautiful atmosphere, really positive people. And I'm a breath of fresh air because I'm doing a four-stretch. They're all a little bit heavy, you know, with it, right?

1:42:21Good footballers. Jimmy Dill was a brilliant footballer, a real class act. Like, he was a great footballer, real classy. Winston Silco was a good footballer. I used to have running races, chess matches. I wasn't the best chess player, but I used to be me and this Ricky. So anyway, when I arrived, the governor said to me, he said, look, he said, we don't want you here. He said, you're doing four years. He said, I've got one other inmate, right, who's doing four and a half years, or three and a half years. He said, he's the only person doing less than you. He said, one step from here is the dregs of society.

1:42:55And he pointed to Parkhurst. He said, do you want to end up there? he said you're 20 I was 25 then he said he said you're probably going to get pro he said but do you really want to end up there with the dregs I went no I don't right I said come to keep me head down I said I'm allergic to dust he went you ain't got to go in the workshop here but you're going on the fucking gardens so I'm on the gardens so me a geezer called Lenny and someone else we used to drive them mad we used to call ourselves the tea party right and it would come notorious with everyone the screws didn't want to be on the tea party we'd do 10 minutes work and when we was in the most public area we'd get out a blanket get out our tea and biscuits and the screw would go what are you doing we say we're having a tea break and we'd have a tea break right and this is how we carried on like you know some screws would come on like i've drawn the short the short straw with you lot in a fucking tea party you know what i mean but some of them found us funny and would give us biscuits, right?

1:43:54But we did graft, but we had a lot of tea breaks, right? So they called us a tea party. So after a few months, I get my parole. So he calls me in the office. He says, got your parole. I said, can I come back? He said, you wasn't wanted when you're coming. He said, you're not going to come back. He said, I want to trust you coming back from a visit. He said, you're not coming back. He said, go to your cat D, keep your head down and go home on home leaves and maybe get, you know, a job where you're working outside the jail. He said, you I don't have time, he said, but, he said, you're about to get the best chance.

1:44:26Some men here are going to wait 10 years for that, to make the best chance of it. So anyway, I said, thank you, go back. When it's time to go, my two mates come up to come and get me. I don't go down to the gate. I'm saying goodbye to everyone. It was really emotional, you know, these people were doing such a long time. I felt really hurt for them. You know, it wasn't like people you live with, you kind of know. and they was all gentlemen anyway. I get to the gate, a PO went to me. He said, I have a good mind to send you back. He said, see you. He said, your mates have been waiting here. He said, your mum's probably waiting for you.

1:45:03He said, and I'm thinking of sending you back. He said, there won't be no home visit. He said, you ain't out of jail yet. He said, and you're giving it to the big. And I said, I'm just saying goodbye to my friend's cup. He said, never mind about that. He said, you're a wind-up. He said, you should have been down here an hour ago. And I thought at that time, don't get a numbness. You can't keep strong in it. Anyway, I go off. I go on the town visit. So first thing I do, I get my mate to see a doctor. So I've got a bad back. So I go on. So I've got a bad back, Mum. My mum said, fucking hell, can't you go and do your bird?

1:45:33What's the problem with you, right? You're only doing a four stretch, right? I said, no, I can't do my bird, no, right? So now there's murderers, right? The causes come, man. I still got a bad back, right? My mate, I think Jimmy was there and his missus. They're laughing. The causes fucking just went. After a week of it, my mum went, listen. We started arguing. I said, I'll fucking go back then, Mum. I said, but listen, I could have stayed here a month. She said, don't, you're not, she's just not the way to do it. She said, go and play football, do whatever you're doing, but don't, you're just taking the piss out of them all the time.

1:46:00So anyway, I go back to the thing. They went, oh, nice to meet you, Russell. He said, we've heard a lot about you, son. He said, go on. He said, we wish you luck anyway. I said, thank you, Governor. Right, he's really polite. Go on the wing. Anyway. And Wooden Adams, he had a trick with the shoes. They was always getting his shoes off him, but he had a way of getting them through the doctor. So I'd done the same trick. So I had shoes, didn't have shoes. They put me in a potato factory. So fuck the potato factory. I should just bunk off, sit in the sun. So this woman, governor, comes down with her mate.

1:46:32She says, Grant, what are you doing? I said, I'm sunbathing. She said, yeah, you're supposed to be at work. I said, no, I'm allergic to dust. She said, dust in a potato factory. I said, there's dust. I said, dirt, dust, it's all the same thing. I said you know the trouble I've had over the thing I said so why are you putting me in the dust this job of the thing alright she went you're not supposed to have your trainers she went anyway I'll sort out a job for you alright so she's with another woman I said who's she alright they was both dressed up I was going to a nightclub sort of thing I said who's she she went she's my friend I said you're an official she said no I said so why are you bringing her around looking at cons for like condemned men and you're in charge of us she went you've got a little yap or she walks, right?

1:47:15Anyway, I get a job on the wing. Cleaner. I have one incident there. Giza nicks my walkman, right? I couldn't believe it when I found out who it was. So, we're going the thing ten-handed. Give him a few dicks, kick him out of the arse. I said, leave the jail. So the next day, someone's still there. So, get a shovel. I said, listen, you've got to go, lad. I said, you can't nick people's gear and stay. He said, go one way or the other. And he went. That was the only bit of ag I had. But the kid who told me, I see him getting bullied by two screws, giving him a strip search for no reason. And I thought he was good enough to tell me about the Walkman, who the kid was, right?

1:47:57He didn't do it for the trouble. He just did, oh, he got my Walkman back, the kid. He went, there's your Walkman. I said, who did it come from? He said, I'm not going to tell you that. He said, because I know you're battering him. I said, and he ends up telling me. Anyway, so I see him getting bullied. So I come into a scratch, you fucking leave me alone and all that anyway. They nick me. And they shang-eyed me out of the jail. So I'm now on the way to Pentonville. It's a pisshole. So when I get there, I ain't got a single cell. So this is funny. There's a screw there like that. Long time I get to here, right?

1:48:34And he's sidekick, right? Called Rambo. So you can imagine, right? So I'm dealing with Rambo now. I said, I want to fuck you. He said, listen, we don't care about you. I said, I'm doing four stretch. I said, there's people doing six months and three months. I don't know Roy Shaw's there. He's already got his single cell, right? You don't want to be taking a single cell off him, right? He says, only two on the win. You ain't getting one, right? He said, we don't give a fuck about you. So I just, as I go, I slam the door. It goes, nothing happens. So I'm down the next, on the Monday, with my book, my rules book, to the SO.

1:49:07I said, let's start. I was going to tell you now. I said the food's not enough I've gone through six things I spotted I said no I'll drive you mad should I get your single cell he said but that book goes away I went sweet right I get my single cell don't get nicked it was it was very difficult to get nicked I've got nicked once at Wandsworth I think they would have killed me and the governor went he's fuck he hasn't been in trouble all the time he's been he went you kept your head down he said but if you come down and there were screws. There was a screw there, like, shaking. Right? To do you?

1:49:43No, grinding to intimidate me. When I go, this is quite funny, when I go to the sea cat with Adams, when they take me for thing, he was on the escort. And he shit himself. It was me and Adams looking at him, and he was going, he knocked down and all that, right? And two boys said to me, you heard one of them say something like, fucking hell, Grant and Adelaide are the same escort, right? But we're both doing the fall. If you use violence for an escape, you'll get more jail. You know, you'll get two years more. So anyway, I'm there at this gaff. I've got my single cell. I had three months to go.

1:50:20What's happened? I've gone on a town visit. I've come back drunk, paralytic. And they've put me in the hospital wing. and then a double cell lost my single cell Roy Shaw's there by this time right so I went over to him and said John McVicker it was nice to meet you son right so I used to walk around with him every day right so he

1:50:51I'm trying to think what happened where I was in the story yeah Roy Shaw you've had three months to go yeah I've got three months to go and I'm in a double cell I haven't been nicked but in my cell was a picture of a beautiful girl that I knew yeah like she was like a girlfriend she wasn't my Swedish girl she was someone else right and they'd ripped the photo up and I just thought it'd been nicked by mistake or misplaced so I'm getting my canteen one day and the kid come out like I've only been back two days or whatever from from the hospital he went look I found that in the in the bin i had sugar i went i said you're fucking slags like really lad i come to when he handed around me so you're gonna walk to the block i said yeah i didn't even say what it's about they knew but i didn't say down the block or nothing three days choking i come out all of a sudden the po comes up to me he said you know you was going home in three weeks time I said yeah she's not going on that you're going home in a year and three weeks time so what are you talking about he said when you're nicked we have to send the report off to the parole board he says that's up to them what they do I get a letter back from the parole board it basically said this we never knew you was nicked at the DCAT you're showing the exact same behavior that we thought you was reformed from right if you start off bad and end up good you'll get pro if you we're losing you three weeks so i said i'm going home on the first i'm going on the 22nd so they said one more thing that's it so i was going to move into another cell but i had to wait a double cell with a guy who played chess and the guy i'm with he does a pony he's a bit insane you know like ill guy he's done a pony and the gas done so i'll kick the door it's only five minutes before thing i'll kick the door kick the door so open the door it's a screw right i said let me get and he went, I'll be back.

1:52:52Screw comes back, opens the fucking door. It's Rambo. I'm going home in about two and a half weeks, two weeks by now, whatever it is.

1:53:06Sweet. So I give the fucking mop to the kid. I don't ever gut him in a bad way. And I go out, I said something like, I want another cell. He went, you're going back in there. I shouldn't have said it. I should have just kept my fucking mouth shut. So now I go to the end of the wing and I wait at the end. And Rambo comes down and it's unlocked now. We've got 10 minutes. It's a Friday night. I'm standing there and I'm thinking, I can see him, he's going, nah. This time I can see him, he's going, nah. And his mates are going, they're trying to reason it. They don't want it. I'm thinking, I can't bang up because I've said it.

1:53:43You can't say it and then not do it. so I thought I shouldn't have said nothing. Anyway, a taffy screw comes along, right? Biggish lump, bit of a, you know, there wasn't bullies there, right? But, you know, they was only dealing with people doing three months or six months. And I could see Rambo, and they're eight-handed. And I'm thinking, I'm fucked. What am I going to say to my mum anyway? He went, come here, Boyle. I said, I'm not going to the cell. He said, never mind your fucking cell. He said, come on, I've got you a cell. He went in there, saved me a year. He went go in that cell there, and he put me in with another kid.

1:54:23They wouldn't have done it, but this taffy screw did. It was about a year later after I was out and I bumped into him, because I'm around the Angel a lot, I drove around the back, and I see him. I went in a small world, and he was a bit shocked. I should have said to him, thank you. I wasn't polite enough, to be honest. I should have said, thank you for that weird thing, but I didn't. I should have done Antia 4 It's immaturity He saved me a year but I said to him small world I might have been with a girlfriend or something but I should have said to him listen thank you you know what I mean I should have done that it's like it's immaturity really you know what I mean so he saved me a year so I come out and Fred's uncle picked me up and my mum oh no I'm not finished so on the day before the 1st of November I still think I've got 3 weeks they come and got me and he said, reception, right?

1:55:17So I said, what for? See, the doctor said, what for? He said, you release papers, you're going home tomorrow. I said, yeah, thanks very much. I said, go out. The three weeks they've added on, they forgot about. So I've signed for the thing, done the medical thing, come back to the cell, say goodbye to my mates. I take the kit, I said, they're fucking muggy cunts. I said, don't tell too many people. I said, I'll just go in the morning, in case they tumble. So in the morning, I say goodbye to everyone. I go to the door. As I go, Rambo's right there with his sidekick. So I looked at him, bolted over.

1:55:48I said, Gov, Grant? No. I said, yeah, Grant. I said, I'm going home. He said, not according to this. I said, no, Rambo's done me, haven't he? I'm fucking, they would have mooded it. They'd fucking set me up. I'm thinking I'm going home, I ain't going home, right? So I come out, Tony Dunford was there, good fighter Tony, yeah? I said, what's Rambo doing? He said, he's talking. I said, he's done me crooked. So I go to the SO's office. I said, I was told I was going on and going home. He said, when I find out who's down to, he said, there'll be trouble. I said, no. I said, what goes around comes around.

1:56:20I said, don't worry about it. He said, well done for holding it down. I said, what am I going to do? I'm not going home for a year, right? And that was it. And when I went home, I went home on the 22nd of November, and I didn't know that up ahead, I was going to end up, me and Kenny Noy, the most too-wanted people in the country, and it would be for home robberies. And that was really the beginning. of my criminal career. How long were you far before you got the bad one?

1:56:51I come out at 26 and when I worked at 33. So you've been out for a good three years. But basically what happens is I get nicked and I escape again. I'm surprised they even let you out the block with the amount of escapes you've done. And the successful ones. I was never double A and never had any help. You know, it's a statement, Dad. You know, you fucking, you probing. So I've never had no help. You know what I mean? I said, I'm free. This is when I see him. I said, like, you know, I said, fair play to you. I said, but because he used to say, he used to say, you run and you hide. Like, a couple times I've been nicked.

1:57:29He said, you can run. He said, you hide and they catch you. That was his little chip at me, right? But so from basically then, I'm at Kilburn Police Station. This is two years later. And I go for a shower. And I say to this dude, they caught me with money from a robbery. Probably looking at five. I didn't have a gun. I said I had a gun. I only got a small amount of money. Is that two years after you get out from the crossroads? No, it's when I'm, yeah, about 28 and a half. So they come for me in the morning, and they say, they're free-handed with the cuffs. I said, where's my toiletries? Because I had toiletries sent in.

1:58:11They went, Russ, we'll send it down. I'll bring it down to scrubs myself. I said, no, no, I'm not moving from the cell. Can't get someone on a small sweat box. It's impossible. I know because I've heard of a story where a guy just quits putting his foot up. Dispersal will do it. Maximum security prison. but they've got no chance. So they fuck off. They lock the door. They fuck off. When they come back, there's one screw there. You ain't got to cut. They're in a rush to get the call. So they haven't followed the procedure. So it wasn't really the fact that... If you don't follow the procedure, someone like me, who's lively, will take the opportunity.

1:58:53Because I learned this as a kid. I told you with the marble and things that didn't work out. You get a window of opportunity take it. Same when they give you a chance, you've got to take it. I had John S. Deerle and they called him the mole. He escaped from everywhere. He escaped his brother out of prison and broke him back in for a protest. I don't know how people do it. I couldn't get out of a prison, I've got to tell you. When I went away, I thought it was going to be like the great escape. If you'd left me in a prison, a B-cap prison, I wouldn't be at it. A C-cap prison I could get at, because you see a ladder or something.

1:59:23You'd need a couple of lads, but you could get a ladder and maybe get the workmen to open to the wall. You get a fence, but there's more movement. But a B-cat, I couldn't get out. I'm not a... I can't... I wouldn't... A B-cat prison, you won't get out of. So seeing you get out the first time, was it just straight back into crime? What was your first big robbery you'd done? No, what it was... I'll go into that. What it was, when I came out, I was very careful. So I only done traveller's checks that was from abroad or certain things. but what happened to me was I was very unfortunate I got I got I'd done a check fraud in a betting shop I remember my mum saying to me afterwards if you're going to do so make it worthwhile my mates got me out and said you want to go and get some reddies I said fucking hell I was tired I was going to stay in bed I've gone down to Chelsea two causes arrived I've hit one it's gone down I've got out and the woman held on to me and the rugby player I said apostate you bashed me into the thing and Cos I come out and smash me.

2:00:25I've got all claret down me. I go back to the magistrates that I get, All Street Road, and back to there. I don't get bail. When I come back the following week, they've got all photos of me with all claret. They've said I've assaulted the policewoman. He said, well, where's the fucking pictures of the assault? That's the first thing. He said, he's about 13, 14 stones. He's fucking 10 stones. He said, how's he at her? He said, as for the guy being knocked down, where's his bruises, right? I said, well, it ain't been produced yet. Anyway, he started arguing. He said, are you going to listen to my bowel application?

2:00:59He went, has he been in trouble since he's been out? He said, no. He went, bowed. But he'd give me on strict conditions. My mum's in the morning and my mum's in the afternoon. And I was made up. All right? I said to Nobby, I said, can I go back to the cells? He went, fucking hell. He said, you're always trying to get out of the cells, right? He said, Nobby, you've seen the escape from before there, right? A year, three years earlier. I go back and I give 30 quid to a kid in the cell. I went, I'll see you later. Anyway, they don't produce the things in 12 weeks, and they're supposed to drop it.

2:01:30And the magistrate said, what I'll do, I'll give them one more week, but I'll drop your bail conditions. And I couldn't have committed a crime, and I'd have probably gone away for about eight months or a year, I don't know what it was, but one check, the second time around after being away, you'll get something, I think, right? Maybe four checks, it's four betting shops, maybe. So, because they bailed me, I'm now at it with the traveller's checks. I've got movement. I get nicked out in fucking Watford or somewhere. Oh, one other story. We go back to while I'm on the trail, right? I forgot this story.

2:02:03This is significant. I go abroad, get some money abroad, crime. I come back and I'm in the West End with Big Jim. And as we're walking, we see loads of videos. And we was off to steal a table from Falknum and Mason's where we'd get a grand each, right? I'm on the trot. And he says, we might get a grand before we go. I said, go on then. He said, but it might be a radio. I said, well, don't do it. He said, probably not. He said, but he walked up to the thing, pushed the things they're empty. He said, run. I run. Loads of causes come out. It's an invitation to get someone to take these videos. You get about 100 quid a video, like video recorders then yeah we'd have got about we'd have got about either got four either got four we'd have got about three or four hundred quid eggs so i run they knock one over they get me and they're about to batter me about to take western central they take me down a side bit and they start shouting they're gonna do him they're gonna do him they're gonna do him anyway so i go to the police station with jimmy i give a moody name and they say there should be assault I didn't assorted no one, I just knocked him over.

2:03:17He said, but you're nicked for attempted theft. He said, I'm going to bail you. He said, you've been in trouble before. I said, never been in trouble. So I give a moody name that stands up with her on the electoral list. So I don't think I'm going to get bailed before this when the cell door opens. And Jimmy, who knows him, he's a ticket tank in the West End, so they're named from all time, right? He said, Tom, Thomas Birdman name was right. He said, you're going to be able to sell me. I said, yeah. So she bows me, is she going to turn up? And I said, yeah, of course I am. I didn't turn up, obviously.

2:03:47I'm fucking Most Wanted For Alls in fucking London sort of thing. This is before the escape thing, or during the escape thing. And the next day or three days later or whenever the prints come through, they turn up at the court every day at the sorry, the little Miserable. My mate gets a cut of 100 quid a day and they nicked him every day. But as they come towards him, like eight handed, he went, what the fuck are you nicking me? There will be no one the other fella is. So I had that as well. So while I was wanted for all the fraud, I got out of the police station that way. Because the dabs only get processed the morning you go to court.

2:04:25There was no way of doing it in the police station, and you had to go to the yard. So anyway, I'm now on the trot from, oh no, I break out of Kilburn Police Station, yeah? And two years before I'd gone to someone's house, I stayed overnight with some woman I met. And when I come out at six in the morning, it was all like a flat park. So I go across and I think, oh, I'm at Kilburn. So the reason when I escape from Kilburn police station, I don't do a right, is because I know I'll get seen for a distance. I couldn't get away. So I do a left, do a right, and I run into the train station. I get on the train at the front carriage, which I shouldn't have done, but it closed and I heard stop the stop the stop the train stop the train so I get the train door open I run to the front across and the train driver must have seen me but I run along climb up a wall jump down into a kind of place where there's a guy doing repairs he went you're frightened the life hat me I said I'm sorry he said we I said I've just escaped I said can I your old rules yeah yeah I think you cut me in here it was quite long so I cut it short as possible and um I basically walk I give me a couple of quid I get a bus ring someone gets my mum gets her mate and Bill who's a who's my first girlfriend's dad he's a good street fighter he's a lorry driver brilliant street fighter you know how many is that so that's four in total now right so three weeks later i'm down south end four escapes that's four escapes now this escapes in total i i get out the police station uh horsery road i get off the escort off the m1 when they catch me and take me remember feeling the water and i get out of the court then i've got out of uh um kilburn and this is after you get out of prison after the first four stretch after So then you're on the run for robberies?

2:06:31Yeah, one robbery. They only got room one, but they got the reddies with the dabs on. So it will come through. So what happens is I'm on a phone and I said to someone, I said, this phone's hooked up. I said, the money was going like as fast as what it would on a mobile. There was no mobiles there. You didn't ring mobiles. It was going down. I needed to put money in. And I heard a siren in the distance. So this woman said to me, well, fucking put the phone down. I said, put the phone down. I run to the beach and I hid. But I didn't look, I should have looked over. And what must have happened was they've come down.

2:07:09It must have been going around the block. I left it 15 minutes. So for some mad reason, I thought I was paranoid. I go back to the call box, and when I go back, I just knew it was a coser car. He's come up along, so I didn't go in the call box. He said, excuse me, sir. I said, yeah. He said, have you used that call box? I said, no. I wanted, but he wouldn't have a description. He might know he's coming to get me, but he wouldn't have a fucking photo. He just knew. It was like 11 o 'clock at night. And I went, he went, I was drunk, really drunk. He went, that's probably why the judgment was bad.

2:07:45And that's what I've learned. If you're not fit and you're not having early nights, if you make a judgment drunk in any way at your head, or even tired, it's always not the right judgement. If you're fit, you're going to bed early, I would say it's hard to stop you in anything. Anyway, I run. I run into a park and I couldn't get out. They put lights on and I thought, if I climb up this tree, I can get over the fence. I had an idea. I missed my footing and I fell from some distance high. I smashed down, crashed and broke my arm, broke my leg. So Codd said, you're lucky to be alive. Could have broke my back, but I fell on my leg.

2:08:32Anyway, go to the police station. I'm fucked. I can't hardly walk. And they said in the morning when they come and got me, they said, you've got to go to hospital. So I go to hospital. I've got a broken arm and leg. That's the end of it, isn't it? I'm on my way to Wano now, right? when they take me to the court I'm in a wheelchair legs up and they wasn't looking what I was doing so I start going down towards where the lifts are right they wasn't looking I wouldn't have got away and I could see that the lift was on the upper floor and I was hoping it would come down and all of a sudden one said come on you've got to go and he come and got me he didn't realize that I was I was going to try and go in the lift I would have got lift would have come over and I just go in so bring me in i'm now going to wandsworth i arrive at wandsworth i'm in the hospital wing so i'm playing chess so kid says to me if you bang your head they'll take you outside they'll take you outside the hospital i said they won i said i've escaped four times he said russ they've had loads of incidents anyone bangs their head now they've got to do x-rays because people have died so he gives me that night two valium i'm on the you're on the wing on your own.

2:09:44Banged my head. Banged it properly so there's a bump. All right, smashed my head. I fell a kip. I woke up in the bed when you're going outside hospital. I said, okay, take me to hospital and I'm in bed now, right? And I've got in the bed and all that. I don't even know if I can walk. So there's a screw there. I heard him slagging me down to the nurse. Yeah, jacked the lady, fucking scapegoat, fucking this, that, and he's two-handed. and his mate went, do you want a sandwich, do you want this, do you want that, to his pal, he's gone. So there was a kid over there, he'd come and see me, he said, I heard you've escaped and all that, he said, we're on the 16th floor, he said, there's a police station, two below, you've got no chance from here, I said, I can't fucking walk anyway.

2:10:25So he was either lighting a cigarette or buying some chocolate, and I see him go like that as I stood up. The geezer at the end of the bed, he must have been talking to like a girlfriend or something, he's got his head down like this. And I basically walked past him. You know, this is all on crime programs and all that, so there's no, you know, it was fucking big news at the time, right? So I just walked past him. And I must have covered my feet from the long blanket. I walked past him. As I go around the corner, the door just opened on the 16th floor. I go in the lift. One person got off. I'm on the ground floor.

2:11:00As I'm walking out hobbling, the door, electronic doors start to think. Now what had happened was I'd met someone who'd escaped from a, it happens a lot in hospitals right, and he hid in the building, they searched everywhere and they found him in the building and I was going to hide in the building but I thought no they'll find me. So I'm on the ground floor now and the door was electronically going to shut. Stopped it, it was easy to stop but had it been locked I wouldn't have been out of care. So I go, I said excuse me sir, would you give me a lift? Some old boy said no, I see a big builder.

2:11:30I said mate listen to me I said, you're going to knock me off. I said, I've got a kid. I've got a missus. I said, they're going to give me fucking, I don't know what they're going to give me. I said, please help me. I said, I don't want to go to Broadmoor, please help me. He went, I've got to go to work. I said, I know you've got to go to work. I said, but I don't want to, I said, I may never get out. He went, he went, come on then, mate. So I said, can I have the boot? He gave me a pair of boots. I'm barefoot. All right. Give me a top and a builder's app, right? And he drove me out. And now I start to hear the sirens.

2:11:58So I said, got any money? I've got no money. Give me a tenner." I said, mate, I never, ever, ever forget you. So Bill picks me up. So he says, fucking hell, what are you doing? You're taking the piss now, right? I've got a broken arm and leg, right? I think I cut the thing off, by the way. Like the - Blaster. He'd done it with the thing. I think I cut it off. Yeah. So it hurts as I'm walking, right? But prison hurts a lot more sort of thing, right? So I get to there and what I do I go abroad right I had to wait for my arm to repair and my leg but I go abroad otherwise you'd be all day all different things happen by the way but I go abroad and I go to Paris I got a job in a restaurant I ended up chef but what happened was the the inspectors for cleanliness come and they raided the gaff and I chipped out.

2:12:54He had my details but there was an American chef in this restaurant near Notre Dame and they said he can't stay if it's a 20 grand fine. They said who's this geezer? He went well he was here but he run off. They went okay fair enough. They closed the stand me and this American guy who worked there we painted it all right. I'm sharing a flat aforehanded. One American guy and an Italian she was lovely she did all miming and an actress from Slovenia, who ended up quite famous, I believe. Anyway, when we do the place up, he's allowed to open, but they come again. And I go. I'm the chef in the gaff now.

2:13:32I learnt how to cook and 20 things on the menu. And I bolt again. So they said, la ingle, rapida. They didn't like that I'd gone again. So I said, why did you go? I said, well, I'm not going to stick around for people asking me questions. I said, I'm going to get in trouble. So I didn't fancy it. So I go to the south of France and I worked for this woman. But when I lived at her home, it was doing my nose really bad. I'm allergic to pollen and dust. Do you feel for? I don't, but my dad gets it. But if it's high, it catapults. So it has to be very high. But there was something in the air. I couldn't take it.

2:14:14So she had this farm there and she said, go there. So anyway, I used to work the land, get food off her, or 25 quid she used to give me. It wasn't much. But I was living simply. I was running seven miles. I said, well, I should do a circuit, go for walks for three hours. I was super fit, right, super fit. I'd run seven, 10 kilometers, get my shopping, hitchhike back. As I hitchhike back once, a woman gives me a lift. And she said to me, oh, you're the Englishman living in a flat. mate we're we're we're six kilometers away i said how did you know that she said oh everyone knows i thought fucking hell that's not good i had to ring home a couple of times with money to be sent and it got there but the kid i went through was lawrence at the spiel and i had to ring the spiel and it would be a loaded phone he goes to the call box i think it come on from the spiel anyway what's happened is i'm going down the shop one day and someone someone stopped and said ask me directions and i thought that's strange you see one car maybe over there and back i got to the thing i see an helicopter it flew really close and i thought can it be on me so i buy some eggs some food and there's tennis courts at the end i walked i didn't see anything i thought no i'm all right and as i come back someone asked directions again.

2:15:34The chances of that is like fucking 1 ,001 shot right or 10 ,001 I thought was on me. So I go back, I sit in this gaff and I'm looking through the doorway and I can see helicopters have got a satellite, you know like they can go for a mile through the thing and I see the the helicopter in the distance and I was thinking it was a bit further over there couldn't see me if it's a bit far over there couldn't see me i thought it's on me here right so i thought you can't run i know from different experiences of running you can't run at night across the field you'll fall over and do your thing so what i do i i i wait until dusk and i thought if the helicopter sees me i've got a like moody like i'm going for a walk and then run so anyway i run for about seven miles i hitchhike guy gives me a lift and then it's pause of rain but It was like a tropical rain.

2:16:35And a woman sees me, I go like that. And they give you lifts out in France. So I talked to her around. I said, is there any chance I could stay at yours? She said, yeah, I'll ask my boyfriend. So I go back to hers, put me in a spare room, show her my passport. My passport's out of date. It's a one-year passport out of date. They give me a tenner, give me some set of clothing. And she felt sorry for me. She didn't know my troubles, but she gave me a soft kiss in the morning. She said, I forget what she said, but she said, please take care. anyway it's freezing all of a sudden it's october time so i needed somewhere to stay so i go to the church and i say would someone help me here please there were seven ladies like catholic women all older and the priest said this man wants somewhere to stay so one of them said yeah so i went back to this mansion she was very rich and her husband they give me a room, made me food, let me stay there a couple of days.

2:17:28I rung my granddad, gets my mum, said, Mum, I've had an on top, send 80 quid and I'll buy a ticket. So I was going to go across to Spain, but I bottled it. You could walk across and they might stop 10 out of 100. And as I'm walking across, I didn't want to go back to England. As I walked across, I bottled it. I thought I don't fancy it. I just couldn't do it. But while I'm going back to London on an out-of-date passport is ridiculous. It's a bad judgment, but that was the judgment I made. So I get on the coach, and what I didn't fancy doing, so I'm thinking if it's on top there, they know my passport name.

2:18:08Do you see what I mean? If I'm right about the gaff, the 20 miles away. I'm thinking, so what I've done, I bribed him. I took the money, but halfway through the journey, he come and got me, he said, there's more people getting on, you need to find a place and get a ticket quick. I just managed to get a ticket, and I get back on the thing, but I don't fancy it, I'm worried, as you say, if this person had gone back to London, they'd put their name up. So I get to the airport, I get off first, I leave my stuff on the coach, that's what I did, I didn't, when we get on the thing, We're supposed to now get on the coach and go through customs because we're on our way to London.

2:18:47I didn't get back on the coach. I didn't fancy it. So I thought, I walked through and I see lorries. I thought, should I hitchhike? Try and get on the lorry and say to him, look, can I hide? I was thinking something like that. So I didn't. And I see some builders go through in front of me, walk through, and they didn't get stopped. So what I've done, I've got a paper, and there was a custom man just setting up, and I walked through and I went like to him. I went, all right. And he went, all right. But he should have asked me for my ID, and he didn't. It's out of date, he probably says, why is it out of date?

2:19:18Or it's on the list. I walk through. So I'm back in London, but now it's war. And suddenly we're not talking silly little fucking behind the till, we're talking guards. Open the box, you cunt. I've got a shotgun. I've got a gun, I've got this, you know. And it's like, it becomes over a two year period, it escalates. And it's heavy. crime programs fucking papers this geese that thing blah blah blah it's just gone out of proportion i'm suddenly probably me and not the most wanting in the country right but they're sitting there kill you it's strong in it it's gone like it's ridiculous and peter scott the cat burglar that i was he was helping me he said listen if you can get a painting a high value painting i can get seven and a half percent so we've i said let's go down so uh where did i say

2:20:15mayfair and what happened he stops to have a piss in a thing i said well be lively peter because i'm on the trot it comes up and when i was a kid my mum had a print of a picasso print so the only artist i knew a little bit about was picasso because i knew he was like a famous thing it wasn't worth any money. But I'd seen Picasso books. And as I walked past this first guy, I said, that's Picasso. I said, that's it. We'll have that. But when I go to see the geezer, I don't fancy it. I said, well, I might do it. I might not. Don't tell him it's a Picasso. And I left it. I've got money. Oh, that's right.

2:20:54When I go back, I'm denied. When I go back, it wasn't in the front window. It'd gone. I said, it must have been sold, Peter. So we'll leave that. And I was going to leave it. So I said, we'll have to find another painting. So one day I'm in the West End for, you know, for whatever reason. And as I walked past the gallery, it sealed my fate. I see the Picasso on the inside, what? Inside the gallery. It was inside, but not in the front spot. So, George Chatham was the greatest cat burglar, arguably ever. I was staying round his before I had the flat that I was at. And we'd go and see him, we said, what do you think?

2:21:32is if you get out of Mayfair, they can close it off quick. So you need to get out. So what I do, I say I'm going to get a taxi. So on the morning of the Casa Robbery, I get a taxi into town. I had to get extra large doors because the frame was like the size of a 50-inch television screen. Anyway, I get the taxi, go to an alleyway, park it. I go in the thing, right? CCTV wasn't, I had a proper hat glasses and my hair was like in a ponytail. But it was up, so you wouldn't know it was in a ponytail, it looked short. But what happened was, as I went, it bounced out. And they called me the ponytail robber.

2:22:16And my dad had seen me with a ponytail. So what happens, I go in and say, how much did Picasso? She went, a million dollars. I said, I've got a shotgun, take it off the wall. She went, you want it, you take it off the wall yourself. So she said to me, posh bird. but she went, yeah, yeah, yeah, so I did. So there's a blonde behind me, a younger woman. She sees it go, and the woman said, I've got out when I get the depths later. She says to the woman, don't, he's got a shotgun. But what she does, she comes out of the chase. So as I'm trotting across the thing, I put the Picasso in the thing. I look around the woman and her security guard.

2:22:58So I point the shotgun at them. they fuck off. The taxi driver said, what's going on? I said, it's a fucking robbery, that's what's going on. I said, I'm sorry, pal, you're going to take me across London. Two geezers come to the thing, fuck off. We get to the bottom, I miscalculated the traffic going into Piccadilly. I said, no, you've got to go across. It was like a, he had to mount a pavement that was very high, he's done brilliant. He's mounting the pavement with gone, and we're now across London. So I'd seen something on TV where I knew they had an emergency thing. They could... Red button kind of thing.

2:23:32He's a computer cab. So I know they've got a satellite thing where they can track it. So while I was with him, I stopped. I needed to make a call. I know it sounds mad, but I stopped. I got out of the taxi. I said, don't try anything silly. He said, you've got a shotgun. How could I try anything silly? I said, mate, you'd be surprised if people do, do not try anything silly. So we go in. I said, stand over there, please. right, go in the gas, right, anyway, I come back out, we're now going back in a taxi, so from a distance, I saw

2:24:04a helicopter coming sort of my way, I said, see that thing, I said, undo it, I said, I want it disconnected, and he went, look, I'll do it, disconnected, they was tracking it, found out later, when I'm nicked, they was tracking it, so they would have caught me, right, but I just remember out and seen on TV. So what I would say is, from a kid and all the stories I talked to all the robbers when I was at Wandsworth, I knew a lot of information about people on the run, robbers, and I had knowledge, it was the knowledge that I had that made it hard for me to get caught while I'm, and basically the rule is this, once you end up on TV and all that, if you're going in a pub every day, the woman will recognise you.

2:24:49If you go in a betting shop, if you go in a restaurant, if you go anywhere, a shop. So what I always did, I wouldn't go in any one place twice in a week. You forget my face. And that was my method. And that was why they never got a call to get me. For two years, I'm going to tell you, I was fit. I was more or less unstoppable, right? They had a 50 grand reward from the clearing banks and a 50 grand reward for the Picasso. for me right so it's 100 large so I'm gone if someone fancies that right and what happens we when I when I dropped the taxi driver off I gave him 30 quid I said listen mate I said I'm sorry about that and he was relieved he was I could see he was relieved I felt bad you know I mean because it wasn't intentional but along the way I said to him listen pal yeah I can't do a fucking 15 for you so I'm sorry but you've got to take me across London I was trying to make him laugh with little jokes i said i'm gonna i'm gonna get myself a bottle of champagne there and look at the painting he didn't know it was a robber he might thought it was an eccentric and the mob hunting for it originally didn't know it was me but the flying squad knew because the thing and my dad had said to me before this why don't you think about giving yourself in they can't fucking get you he said you might fucking only do a five or six i said dad i only might do an eight anyway i said so why give myself in this is no point he said he said what happens if fucking escalates he He said, you know, you'll get shot dead.

2:26:15He said, well, you think they're going to give you a chance to run off again? Which is right.

2:26:24So I'm now in Leeds. I've got a flat. I'm out clubbing. And it's all madness. But when I get this flat, I pay six months in advance. And the guy next door doesn't know that the flat has been rented. So I come back from a club and I'm drunk. Right? I'm not a big drinker, but if I go to a club, I'll drink over a drink. Not in a pub, I'll have two pints. I'm like that. I couldn't remember the code. He called the police. So this coser comes down, and he says, I tried to run. So it's stupid. I had a shotgun in the thing, read his, like, 30 grand or something, under the bed. I run, they nick me. He says, you're nicked for assault.

2:27:08When I get to the station, I remember, when I get to the station, and I fall out the carriage. I've just fell. I smashed my head. And I got a cloud down me. And the sergeant went, I said, sergeant, I said, look, I've got my idea. I said, I didn't assault him. But because I got the injury, they want to cover their self. So I give him the thing. I remembered the idea of me. If I'd have said to the coser, there's my idea, he would have let me in my flat. So anyway, I'm now on the way to the hospital. I come back to the station. I think that's the end of it, right? go to sleep about 9 in the morning door opens so when I bow you you've got to go back to the police station in a week what you've got to understand is when they take your dabs they cannot process if you back then not now yeah it's all computerized now yeah but back then they had to go to where the computer was it wasn't in every police station so they couldn't test your dabs if you got bow they only made sure who they knew you was by the time you went to court that's how it worked so when he said to me you're going to be bowed I know there'd be photographs of me in the fucking gaff you know what I mean?

2:28:13There'd be photographs from every police station in fucking England, right? So he bows me, right? And I go. But I said, I want to know, I want to know, so I stronged it now, right? These are the sort of things you shouldn't do, but this is what I've done. So what is the name of your superior? What's the address? He wrote it all down, right? This is strong, isn't it? I should really just be walking out the fucking door. I said, what's the name of the policeman who said I assaulted him, right? So when I get to the post office, the first thing I've done, I've got to go and get my fucking shotgun and my reddies and I'm off.

2:28:46I write a letter. I say, I'd just like to thank you, Superintendent Fingerbub, for all your excellence and your thing, right? The policeman who said I assaulted him, I can assure you I didn't. I said, but if it wasn't for him, right? Allowing me to fall out the finger, bang my head. I said, maybe you wouldn't have given me a bow. So anyway, I sent that in, right? So I know they're going to fucking hate it when they know it's me. So anyway, I go and I go to Southampton now. I go other places, but I end up in Southampton. And what happens is they find me. Why? You can never work that out. But what it is, if you go somewhere once, don't go back there.

2:29:28On the run is a dead-end road. But you've always got the first move. you can't you can beat them if you're prepared to go abroad for a long time or never go anywhere twice and have a bit of help but I wouldn't go abroad it's really difficult abroad and you miss London and you miss people and you always need a bit of help yeah you need reddies and you can't get money abroad you wouldn't do anything in Paris they'd kill you out there Holland I could have gone they'd kill you out there you get reddies you won't get much jail but it's heavy. So you just go straight, but it's not easy going straight.

2:30:06You've got tax. It's even more difficult now. See, with you watching the Cowboy films and your father, who he was, and the films that's been out about him, the reputation he had, did you feel like a sense of pivot going through that, as if you were living your own sort of movie? McVicott 2. Yeah, what it is, it's an ego thing. The best moment was when I had the broken arm and leg. That was my, it was never the Picasso. It was getting out with a broken arm and leg. That was my highest moment in crime. Because I was never about to realize, I was, as someone says, around the angel. Some girlfriend, a friend of mine.

2:30:41She's a girlfriend. She said, you always liked the bravado. And I did. I loved nothing better. Always, there was someone really wanted in London. And I used to love saying to my mum, he's still on a trot. And there was a geezer out in Australia. I had mates from Australia. They'd say, he's still on, I'd say, he's still on a trot. He lasted seven years. they got him and what I noticed was everyone gets caught and it hurt me that everyone gets caught and I just wanted to be the one person who never got caught so when it come for me I woke up in the morning and I didn't fancy it I felt not good I go into cities I go into the city centre and all of a sudden I see a car whizzing past I thought I'm reading something it's an article on me right I go like that I thought was that the fucking flying squad and as I went like that I'd had a late night with someone right she'd had me up three nights and it was late and I didn't think quick enough it made a difference I should have bolted as I look I look there I'm police move I blow your head off right right and I thought you cunt run and they cunt behind they went get on the floor get on the floor I wouldn't get on the floor right so they smashed me on the floor I done my knee I said, finger bob me.

2:32:00They've got this silly hat. That's why they call it the pavement. When they nick you, they nick you on the pavement. Because I said something, I said I'm in a fucking hotel. And he looked at me, he might as well say, come on, Ross. You know we've bottled you off. Because that's what they do. They don't just come on the first night and have a little look for you. And I remember the van down the road. I remember other things. I remember a case. And I thought, could that be a surveillance camera? I didn't go. I had the chance. I didn't go, but I wasn't sharp enough. So I got a fifth-dent stretch.

2:32:32And what broke me out, when they took me to court one day, this is how lucky I am, I could have escaped again. This is what happened. I go into the court, it's halfway through, but I'm going to meet Paul Ferris, right? So me and Ferris used to have wars, badminton and chess. He's a practical joker. yeah black black humor he's funny I loved him to death and one of them one of them he just talked different things I can't tell you how funny he is but I'll skip forward yeah so me and him as good pals and we had a badminton war and on this last day it was boiling up and afterwards I couldn't move my arm up he looked like a boxer who was going to fall over right he was sweating I'd do him right so make sure when you see him, Satan must have said, yeah, right?

2:33:26And the chess, once I got to 15, he didn't stop beating me. He said, hey, I think we're about level on gears now. I said, yeah, only because my head's gone getting the 15 thing. But anyway, he helped me with everything, and it was about even shot. So what's happened? A van before me has hit the shutter that goes down. It's hit it, it won't go down. So we go further in, and they've got to open the door and then you put your hand through a little slit. I'm a four-time escapee. Or was it five times then? Five. I've escaped five times, right? I know I haven't actually got away, but getting out of the court was an escape because it was outside the court.

2:34:11And I was supposed to put... I went to go like that, the door opened. And all I had to do was jump down. I never took it. There was one coser at the front up there. I could have jumped off the van and run up. And I never took it. And when I went to court, one person found me not guilty. I had no chance of beating it. One person found me not guilty. She was crying. And I went, don't worry about it. And the rest of them found me guilty. He went, when he's some day, he said, listen. He said, you do things, what he mostly said was, you do things in a basic way, and it looks common and vulgar and this, that, and that.

2:34:43He said, but you've done it with some panache. He said, you're going away for 15 years. So that was it. what's come through your mind when you get the 15th stretch two of the causes come over they said we thought you were going to do us the third one went I knew you was fucked they said there was no way you was getting out of this right but two of them said we thought you'd done us because that was why I hesitated but if you want to be Jesse James or Jacques Mezarin Jacques Mezarin you have to call him because he don't like that if you want to be Dininger that's what Peter Scott used to say to me they do you like Dininger he said you'll get the Dininger bullet I said yeah but I ain't shot no one Peter I said so why would I he said after what you've done and that's what my dad was worried about he was saying why don't you call it a day you're in front and start your life again but I watched two Willie Jesse James films I watched Dillinger, I watched The Great Escape oh and the only time I John Dillinger in the USA yeah I watched The Fallen Way, Johnny Depp they do it from behind and I've got to be honest when them things used to happen I used to feel a chill and I watched Mejurin I was in Birmingham and at the end it's a brilliant film he's dripping in blood and I sat there and I was a little bit phased I remember thinking because I oh I haven't told you what the what the yeah sorry I'm sitting there thinking am I going to end up like him the dripping in the blood dead so there was moments when I'm very very confident but occasionally like Dillinger film and all that, I'd think about it.

2:36:17They all get killed, them people. And I aspire to them people. But, I'm not as dangerous as them people. You can't say, there ain't no one out there who said he'd been shot or whatever. You know, even the COSR, when he got the four stitches, they tried to say assault. I said, I run a trial. And they dropped it out. Because they never fucking hit him. Did you go through psychiatric reports of that? No, nothing like that. You've got to be mad to fucking want to stand, Joe. Why would you, there's nothing psychiatric about, trying to get out you've got to be mad not to but when you get the 15 stretch i did have psychiatric reports for for court yeah and the judge said if you pursue it if he says you're mad i knew he said i wouldn't say he said you said you're going to broadmore i said you ain't gonna sound mad something like that you know so i did have him but not at the prison it was private sort of thing so seeing you get your 15 stretch did you have any chance of escape while only the just when it started quite.

2:37:11Yeah, but what it was, when I got guilty, I had one more plan. When they let you off at the bottom of the hill, they're waiting for the next van. It's the same trick with the thing. But they walk you through and then they cuff you off and you walk through. And it takes a while before you hear any movement behind. So what I was going to do, but he'd done it differently, he walked me right through to the cells. I was going to say, I don't feel well. I was going to... Jimmy had this trick when the police used to try and batter me, say, I'm asthmatic, right? So I was going to do something like that.

2:37:42Dwell the box, sit there like that, off the cuffs, and just run round them, and hope that as I run back to where the coaches are, the next coach is coming in, do you see what I mean? It's about a one in ten chance. So that is, but they never done it. When I got weighed off, it took me right away to the cells, which is what they should do. But they don't always do it, you see. It's the breaking of procedure, where you arguably get your chance, but I never got another chance after that. but I don't finish off. I go on one robbery, and I shouldn't have done it. Scouts firm said we might get 300 lads or something like that.

2:38:24And this is after your 15 stretch? Yeah, I ain't finished it off. I didn't go back on a home visit, right? So, yeah, yeah, yeah. So you're doing your 15 stretch. I could have got the Reddies and gone back or whatever. So I've only got like four months to do or something, right? But it's not so lack of intelligence because you're not on license. With someone like me, you're on license for, I've got 15, you're on license for like seven years. So if you get in an argument, you're recalled back to prison. But if you haven't finished your sentence, you're on the trot, but you can't get nicked for nothing.

2:39:00You can't get recalled for, you know, you just go back and finish your sentence. So it's worth it. But anyway, it went wrong in the robbery. And what happened was, I don't normally work with firms. I got smashed in the kite with a meat clamp, right? The kid, it didn't work out. And he missed the door, so we couldn't get to where the cash machines were. So there's a box coming out. There's probably no money in it. Three grand. What should we do? I should take the fucking box, right? So he goes. I run the wrong way. I forgot where the car was. I mean, I'd only been out days. I run back to the car.

2:39:35The geezers decided to be a hero. I pulled him away. He's got a trolley. I mean, I don't understand why people do it. The other kid's got to meet people. I punched him. I got him on the floor. Get in the car and we drive off. You can't even get the box open, the kid on with. They've got a way of knocking it from the boot of the car and it opens. There's different ways of doing it. I don't do that. I always make them open the box. I open the box. I don't do that. I don't take the fucking box. None of that. It's open the box, pal. So. I'm all claret. At the scene of the crime, I didn't know this, at the scene of the crime, there was no blood, but you would have thought there was.

2:40:14In the car, there was no blood, but where we left the car, there was all blood. And it was that that done me. Yeah, done me. So I knew I was gone. So I'm thinking it's arguably an indeterminate sentence. I might get a five for that. I got a six. I might get a five for it. And at the time, I thought you did the five for the five. when I get nicked, I think, they give me a 16. When I got to 16, I thought I'm doing, if it had been an indeterminate, I would have got 16 years. I thought you'd do the whole lot but it's half. Anyway, so I go back, I'm fucked. They stitch my thing up for me. I've got a scar there and I live with people and all that, the good people in Liverpool.

2:40:57I can't tell you how lovely. Yeah, I love this guy. People looking after me and my mate John, I've got to say, his name's John Byrne. He's heroic, you know, and family and all different people looking after me. They kick off a door there, two little kids, I know, like six and eight at the time, like that. Like, if they observe the gaff for a week, I'm not there, but they heard I was there. They took a few liberties, shall I say. Run me out of town. Anyway, like posters and shit. So I'll go to, we're now getting towards the end of the story, thank God. So I get to Blackpool and I have a bit of work.

2:41:38What happens? I cut my fucking hand. I mean, I couldn't believe it. Claret. I get on a bike and I dump the bike, but they find the bike. It's all my claret. So I'm sitting in an hotel. I've got a bottle of champagne. I'm looking at the TV. All of a sudden, John McVicca, son Russell Grant McVicca, wanted for a bit of work. Well, 25. It's either 25 or 25. I can't fucking remember. wanted in Blackpaw and I'm thinking here we go again right so now I've got two bits of work so I'm thinking it was just starting to phase the indeterminate sentence now so all those years I was thinking on my head why did you not run so now the Mezarin film's out we're now in 2009 the Picasso happens in 1997 okay so we've gone I started out escaping in 1986 and now it's 2009.

2:42:32So all the ag I've just talked, I've had. And more. I mean, you couldn't get it in all the ag I've had. But the people who supported me throughout and helped me all my life, I thank God for them people because some of them didn't know me. And they helped me and they risked their liberty for me and they did things for me like Mary Tricky.

2:42:55john bob one of a film and all these people and other and they're other people so you end up in crime with 200 of you and 200 causes known about you the fact that you're in national press it doesn't mean nothing because you look at a paper it's just yesterday's news so when you're wanted there's only four or five hundred people who know about you realistically and who care and out of them there's only 10 or 20 who really care and at the police they've got other things to do but the ones who are hunting you the key eight they're the dangerous ones so because of the measuring film and the dininger thing i always thought because i'm going to run when they come on me next time i'm going to run because it hounded me for years i mean i can remember all them other things as a kid i'm sort of person if i missed the penalty i wouldn't forget it but you've got to be positive.

2:43:48So when I see the Mezzarine film, Dillinger, which come out in 2008, 2009, it's 2009, I thought, could I end up like that? So I had an eerie feeling because I'm going to run. When they come on me this time, I'm going to run. Anyway. I have a bad feeling at four o 'clock in the morning on a Wednesday. I think, go. It's never happened to me before. I didn't. Then I had a bad dream. I go out in the morning, I'm on my bike and I see a bird. She had a barber on. And it was like in the Terminator film, when the Terminator sees the thing, it goes like that sort of thing. And she went, she must be trained to make sure it's you.

2:44:25She sort of went like that. And as I drifted that way, she drifted that way. And it was a coser there, but he was behind the thing. It was her who was the danger. She went like that. I skipped round, get off. I've got a little trick from where I am. I always have a little hat. And I walk off, get a taxi. I go round, this is a mistake. I go round, there's no police there, so I thought, are you paranoid? I wasn't certain. I was meeting someone, I said, listen to me, don't come down, I said, because it's on top here. She went, I'm already down. Anyway, I go back to the gaff, all right? If you just said to that fraud mob, they was ex...

2:45:04on that fraud mob, they was the best squad that hunted me. They had ex-flying squad and ex-murder squad. They was, in my opinion, what I learned afterwards, they was cleverer, but they was unlucky. I was lucky during that period because I was just lucky, but I was also very observant. Like not many people would bother going in one house and out the back. You wouldn't bother doing that to most people, but I would, right? So I'm thinking if the day ever comes, I will run. So on the day, on this night, I've bumped into Big Jim, my mate. This is how lucky I am. I haven't seen him in 25 years. He can't believe I've had two bad wanteds.

2:45:48A 30 grand reward. He wasn't 50 or nothing, but it was 30 grand on Crime Watch. And they put me two weeks on the spin. You'll never see that. What they knew was, on the first week, if you stay where you are, once it goes into the second week, you just go out and act normal. They put me on the second week, and it did throw me. I thought fuck me I could have made a rick here but I never go to the same place twice I never talk to neighbours I go I won't stay in the gaffer I'm talking to neighbours because you can't read every paper internet and all the rest of it so they've done it twice on the spin he went we've got a lot of calls they was trying to spook me so I move anyway months later whatever I'm in London and they get me so Jimmy's bird said to me right his missus she said why don't you stay tonight I said, no, I'm going home.

2:46:34I was with someone. She was going back to the gaff. She goes back to the gaff early, and I forgot my phone. I was supposed to ring her and say, is there any old bill here? When she got there, she knew. When they got there, they swept her. So now I'm going there about half hour later. I said, see you later. I didn't have the phone. I've gone back. I thought I'm paranoid. So I go back. I thought the two people I see, maybe they was not robbery squad, but they was. so i go back as i go back the lights off and i left the light on special i thought i see someone's head moved back all of a sudden i'm pleased don't move so it's day of judgment time do i run don't i fucking run but if you think about it for 10 stretch i've got to run and he went to me he said something i laid down on the floor or something right he said something i know i had my hands in my pockets he went take your hands out you shouldn't have your hands in your pockets they kill you.

2:47:26He said, take your hands out of your pockets, take your hands out of your pockets. I went like that. He went, turn around and face the wall or something. And I just went, I thought, well, you've got to go for it. And I went for it. So I've rolled, I bolt. He don't shoot me. He's running after me. But what he'd done, he's training. He had to put the gun and use the taser. And I had these boots on that I'd bought that week. These like, from wherever, from damn Chelsea, where I had to put these boots on. I always got trainers on. And I nearly put my trainers on that night. I fall because of the trainers.

2:48:00Because he said, I've got a taser on you and I can see the red light. I can't carry him running straight, but I should have done it. He would have missed me. I didn't know this. So I do a left. It's going like that. And I'm thinking they'd be all running around the corner. So I never run back. I run that way. He got me by an inch there. it only just got me so he would have missed me running but I didn't know that so if you if you've got someone running after with a tater just carry on running because they'll miss so he tases me I scream like when you're free and you drop your ice cream so he's come over took the thing he went right he's took the thing he's going through his procedure is he mad I just thought are you mad I've got I'm drunk but I've got my thing back he He went, laid down on the floor and went towards him.

2:48:50In the depths, he says, he tried to grab his gun. I didn't, right? I tried to hit him, but I wasn't sharp enough. I wasn't, I just wasn't sharp enough or brave enough or something. I wasn't determined enough. That's the word. It's not really, it's being sharp. You know, you can't hit a sharp man. You know, I could have got him. And this time he's done me again. He's done me in, right dead center. But this time he's bashed me. so he's got me on the floor but i won't let him cuff me so we're scuffling there's no no one coming from the flat we're about 200 meters away and he had like a static taser he'd done me five times oh no he stood up and he shot me but he this is why i know what i got me he's got he's aiming from the back he's got me there the third one hit me there right i couldn't move it freezes but it doesn't knock you over, right?

2:49:43He's pulled it out and he's done me like that. He's done me another five times. And on the fifth one, I went, I said to him, I'll give in. I couldn't help it. I'd had about, I'd had five and three. I couldn't take no more, right? My central nervous system, I'd had enough. I'd been fit, I might have been able to take another two but I wouldn't have got away. They cuffed me, they'd come. They stood me up. And it's like the end of the war, isn't it? They never read me my rights. I didn't know the fucking thing. I could see he was shaken up. And they all stood around me. and it went silent and I thought you're gonna get an IPP you're fucked here right and it went silent and they didn't hold me and we just walked down very gracefully and when I got to the van they held me and I looked down to see this pub I thought I'm not gonna ever see the street again so I end up in court and of course I've got one more escape story but I don't get away.

2:50:40I'm sitting with my brief, who's a Mancunian, she's been sent, they couldn't get up from London and I see someone come in here. They let some people in and I thought, I've got a chance here. So I just carried on talking, talking, talking and when I knew he'd gone down to collect some people, I said, I'm off now. I'll see you later. She didn't know why I cut the things there. The fellow went, do you want a cup of tea? He got the tea, give me the tea. As I went back to the cell, I thought, right, I'm only guessing. I walk back I go right in his thing I didn't do him in the boat race because if I didn't you can get lifed off for it for hot scolding water very dangerous in someone's boat race so I'm pleased I didn't plus I didn't think he deserved it you know he was a little guy you know that was enough but it wasn't enough because I done him this big lump here shit here and the guy the screw just about to lock here he knows he ain't got time he ain't he's jumbling I go to the thing he goes to the other side and they were like this so I'm about 14 stone fit no for 13 and a half I'm fit I'm probably about 13 and a half so I'm going and the woman and the guy that I done scolding they just took a little bit of strength from me because he wasn't big enough this guy it's like you and me you look about 15, 16 stone something like that in the push thing you should get the better of me but he was lighter than me so it was going like that like that and on the third goal I couldn't do it the big lump come done me I'm like that he locked it from the other side, the screw.

2:52:08I'm like that, and they went, are you going to behave yourself? I said, well, how am I going to escape? He had my arm. I said, it's either that or carry me to the cell. He let me go. I went back to the cell. And that was my last... Well, it wasn't my last. It was my last attempt. It was my last attempt, so I never got another chance. So I go to... Who do you want to meet? I go to Liverpool jail, loads of stories there, but it'll be on day. And I end up in a maximum security jail with Curtis Warren. So he's just a writer at the jail, right? You want to hear this story? Yeah. It's a good story. So Ferris will tell you when you see him.

2:52:53Say, you had a bad, bad... I had Fizzi on this arm. I should call him the Flying Scotsman. That's why I used to call him, right? But I didn't write to him from those years ago, because he was a high-profile guy. and I come off, I was on the A-cat, I come off after it, yeah. But I wouldn't speak to anyone who's A-cat. What was your sentence? When I got the 15. On the next one, oh, sorry, I get the 16. So it was a 16 you got. Yeah, so I go to Liverpool. Before I tell you about Curtis, right, I go to Liverpool, and there's a geezer who comes out of the shower, we're all dressed, and I said, you look happy, mate, right?

2:53:26I mean, I'm fucking gutted. He went, yeah, he said, I was expecting a seven, IPP. He said, I've got a five, judge whatever. I said, what are you? He said, robber. I said, I'm a robber. He said, you should be all right. I told him, no, you're not going to be all right, mate. He couldn't believe it. He went, no, you're not going to be all right. I'm talking about two robbers, but I think he knew I was. And he went, no, you're in trouble. He said, I'm going to tell you three judges to avoid. One was Swift. One was the Ed Geyser they were all terrified of. And one was someone else. So when I went through the proceedings, you go up every month.

2:54:00The first one, my brother said he might i said no no no swift drop him out the second one was the next one who gives an indeterminate the third one is the next one so i don't know and gone guilty i would have got probably i would have got probably six years to do but if you look back on all my prison i don't work in workshops i won't do this i don't behave myself enough to get out on a sentence like that they would hold on to me for about eight years so when i go do go up judge mad judge james he said i don't give indeterminate sentences so i went guilty anyway i'm now a maximum security curtis warren arrives and he's a he's supposed to be the best tennis player in the system so someone's a little kid shady not a little kid he's a gang member from from from manchester he says you can play thing russ i said yeah he's a mad gambler shilly right and so so you know i am as well we're both gambling everything on football and other things he said well he thinks he's the best i said well it's me or keith stewart are the best fat northerner i never beat from manchester i love dearly right but i said i'll have half an answer in it so by the time we get back there's probably hundreds of pounds of burn and more going on this thing so i'm going to the gym the day before we're the big match, me and Curtis.

2:55:19He says, you want a game, lad? I said, I'm going to run. He said, what difference? I said, we're going to play tomorrow. Why don't we just... It was a mistake, it was a mistake for him. We go and play. It was the biggest mistake he ever made in his tennis career. We go down the gym, 6 '2 to him. He's got the best forehand, he's left-handed, and he's got the best forehand I've ever played against. But his backhand is not better than mine, his backhand. So he kills me. So I come back to the wing. I said, right, I'll settle half my debt. I said, I've got no chance for this geezer. It's mustard. I said, Curtis, well done, mate, right?

2:55:55He said, sorry, Dad. I said, no, you're different class. Fair play to you. So I sat there that night. No one wanting to give mercy. Looking for a bit of mercy. No mercy at all, right? So all of a sudden, no one would... So I'm up for nothing. I said, what can I do that's different? I'll just put everything on his back end. So we go in, there's Bronson, a geyser called, a friend of Curtis's who's called Magoo, and another geyser refereeing it, right? Big Stan, great boxer in the day from Garston, I think, right? And he would have beat me at tennis if he was the same, he's a great tennis player, but he's a bit old, isn't he?

2:56:31So they're refereeing it, me and him, right? This proper fucking needle, I'm 4-0 up, right? Every single shot, I'm not trying to win the shot over there, I'm putting it to his backhand. He's struggling a bit, and then I'll smash it over there. I'm 4-0 up, and I'm thinking I've done. You know, the legend sort of thing, right? But it's a bit of banter, because I'm not as fit as him, so I play for time. I go like that, and I kick the ball away as I go, he's a fucking hell, lad, you're fucking all that bollocks, you know what I mean, right? I'm playing for time. I say, well, you can't be a superman from Liverpool like you.

2:57:04He's super fit. He can do rowing in under about 17 and a half minutes, and he's not tall, right? You know, I can do 20, but, you know, I'm not practicing it. I can do a 20 without practicing, right? So I'll probably get down to 19, but I'll get that. He does circuits, press-ups, all fucking mad things, right? So he's super fit, but he's struggling all of a sudden. It's 4-1, then it's 4-2, then it's 4-3, it's 4-0, right? I thought, fuck it, you know, this geezer, right? And he's looking at me, right? We're changing every two games, right? I'm looking at the three, right? There's loads of people bet against him, Not because they think I'll win, but because they want to take him on.

2:57:40They'd have to crack with him, you know what I mean? A banker and all that, right? So it's the two-way split. It's like about a grand either way. All different people. It's a massive thing in the jail. Everyone's fucking, you know, bet on it. I went 5-4. I was always one in front. And all of a sudden, I thought, no, I've got him here. I've done him. I've done him. And then they called time. In the next set, it was 2-0. But whoever's winning, there's one. And he went, he said something like, fair play to you lad. You tricky cockney or something like that, right? And from that, we become very good friends.

2:58:17But I was always taking on my badminton. And badminton is a different kettle of fish. I mean, I played tennis since I was 10. So did he, Curtis. But badminton, no. I always tried, and I got a draw with him once. Had it gone a little half hour later or 10 minutes later, he'd have won. But he always said, no, you've got a draw. So when we used to walk back, it's a quarter of a mile walk. So when we come back from badminton, right, he would always give me the jabber. He thought, you come down here, lad, going to do this, going to do that. And it was funny with the banter. So we had years of banter between us.

2:58:53Then he gets swagged, then he comes back. My eight years is up. And this is the last story. I used to play a guy called Colin Joyce, very good chess player, beating once the 10. he's the Gooch gang, allegedly, right? And I knew Cabo used to play football with his co-D. So I had like a little fucking dot there, right? I've only got eight months left. I had a dot there and I thought, I wouldn't like it if, you know, it's a little bit, I was a bit vain about it. I thought, you know, if you should, like a girlfriend, it was horrible, it was like a thing, it was a thing. I didn't think nothing of it.

2:59:29So I got wax in my ear. So I go down to the thing, I said, I've been putting olive oil in it, could you do the ear, please? Susie her name was she said I'm not supposed to do it I said come out straight away come out straight away but she caught the nerve anyway next day

2:59:49I'm playing chess and it's starting to swell up and John Ironnatchie was my pal and he smashed the whole fucking wing up and then only went on for him for a hundred a hundred men went on for him right it's all it's all on the news and all this at the time he was there I said John you play him He was my pal John, so was Joyce. Curtis is not there now, he's somewhere else. There's other people in the jail, you know. My wing has been in a lot of trouble. Hostage takings with screws and all that, right? It's a mad gaffe. I'm the only person, BCAT, that kept me there for eight years. No one had done eight years.

3:00:25The most of BCAT had been there in four years. So they dig me out because of the McVicar son and the escapes. But when I go there, I won't go down to workshop. So we're back to the dust. I took six nickings I get a week's block I get lose TV, canteen, all that and in the end they say go education so they swallowed I was the only person and one other who followed the dust thing so I was the only person who down the workshop wouldn't go because I don't care about a block don't bother me so I had the first year there or six months I had a lot of trouble and the people I have it with are high profile in the jail so they don't like that either you can't win with them But they left me alone, but they left me there for eight fucking years, these people.

3:01:08So I should have got about 13 totality of sentence, and it was a geezer called Kwame. He said to me, how long should you... Oh, well, I'll get to that in a minute. What happens is, I go down to the doctor's, and I'd had a trapped nerve, and it took about a year for it to go, and I lost all small muscles in my knee, and I've got a knee injury, and it altered my ability to run. I can't run without hurting my knee because of a trapped nerve. They wouldn't do an MRI scan. So I had murders with this doctor. So when I go down the healthcare, I've got Billingsley. He rings up straight away and says, hospital appointment.

3:01:44I said, but you don't give hospital appointments like that. You don't fucking think. He went, no. I said, why? He said, it could be cancer. So I go down the thing, they do a test. He said, if there's something wrong, well, you know, I didn't hear nothing. Then I had to go down New Year's Eve. They did something else, a proper scan. then I go into January. So I've got cancer. I never told no one. Like in the prison I told, and I told my mate John, and he told people in Liverpool, which I didn't really want to do, but he did. But I never told anyone. None of my mates know. Why? Because I ain't really that sort of geezer.

3:02:19I mean, I just don't. Why ain't that something for you? No, what I thought was, I'm going to die, I'm going to die, I'm going to live, I'm going to live. I didn't, what I'm trying to say when I got out, you know, I didn't tell anyone. I've never told anyone. and my mum will knock it out, it's all right with my mum, I'm funny in certain things, I just couldn't be bothered going into it. Anyway, I've got it, and on about the third visit to the hospital, they've got me cuffed, but when you go in there to scan, you're on your own. There's no, screws have to stand out because it's radioactive. So, I said, gov, we're going in there in a minute, take the thing off, he went, nah.

3:02:53I said, can I use the toilet please? So I come out, single cuff, long cuff. He said, I said, no, you're not putting me on the cuffs. So they jump me, right? Not only do they jump me, right? Put me on the floor and all that, right? I'm not going to fight because I'm going home. He said, you fucked my slags all this. And all of a sudden, they said, you're going to miss your thing today. It's on my tongue somewhere, right? The base of my tongue on my neck somewhere, I don't know. he said you're going to miss your cancer treatment and this was true but this would be a mistake on my part you shouldn't take these people on as frankie fraser and gentry said always be polite to them don't it's fraser don't give this was a don't give these people a chance russell ever fraser started off with 10 done 20 or ashore said to me he was on a on a he visited him at some mickey mouse fucking jail and they went fraser they just you would think you'd be a cape would all be frightening they weren't he ended up on hunger strike and raw shore said take them say take them to eat and frankie fraser went nah i'm not eating i'm on fucking hunger strike i'll die before i fucking think but they nearly killed him anyway so they bust me up and they're not going to give me my treatment so when i go the next day they say you can have the two treatments so that was reasonable but what happened was it fucked my throat up i couldn't eat this is the danger they put a tube in there and the feed i was allergic to so over the six weeks of treatment that's the chemo once a week but the other thing there it was really robust they said i had a seven in ten chance of living three out of ten of dying I couldn't eat.

3:04:40I was allergic to the feed. I went from 14 stone fit to 10. So when people see me sometimes in the morning, they're in a state of shock because they might not have seen me for a while. I could see people's boat. And the woman come there and she said, you've got to fight. I said, I'm fighting now. I said, I'm going to fucking energy, Susie. I said, I haven't got any energy. I said, but I know how to contain my energy. I'm not losing energy. I'm all right. I'll be all right. Anyway, around about June, I've got two months left to go. I'm now 12th stone.

3:05:19People come down to visit me, Terry Smith. Dave Armani, done 45 years. 45 years, killed someone in jail. He was going home on about 50 years, right? He used to bring me down food. Joyce, he's doing a 42 stretch. which was supposedly gang-nagged killings and all that, right? So anyway, I got all these people coming down. Joyce said, I thought, are you going to die? He said, they said nine people have been in that cell and they've all died. They call it the death cell. I said, why don't you have a fucking bet? He said, the screw said you was going to die. He said, no, you, Ross, you fucking die on purpose.

3:05:52It cost me a grand, right? So he was great stuff. He was a really good friend. And I got out of jail on about 12 stone. And Rachel, who was one of the screws that jumped me, right, she come down and carried the stuff. She didn't say sorry for what happened, but I was pleased she did. I'd known her eight years, right, but the other two geezers, no. Anyway, carried my stuff. I was very weak, and as I walked out the gate, it was a security screw. It didn't say good luck or anything, you know what I mean? Don't make stress. They didn't even say good luck, right, but I didn't even look at him. It opened up.

3:06:29As I walk out, there's a woman's screw coming down who knew me, she knew I was going home, but I didn't say nothing to her because I'd never spoke to him in my life. You know what I mean? I know one screw there, Mr. Binningsley, right? Dog screw, but there were screws there who hated me and they would come down while I was in the hospital and say, you're right, Brian. They showed a bit of sympathy, some of them. And when I get released, there's this dog screw. When I come on the wing, he said, if you don't go down the workshop, I'll take you in arms. I said, take it, do what you want. He said, because we're not having you lay down the law here.

3:07:01I said, I don't care, do what you want, right? And he got moved wings. So another screw, when I lost me in the answer, another screw gave it back to me, the head thing, because I was prepared to go education. So this dog screw, who was a right dog, when I had the cancer, he would come down once every two weeks. So, great, I hope you do well. So it was a cunt, but when I was dying, I'd give him his doing his thing. So as I go out, he discharges me. you know what I mean and if it had been another screw I might have fucking shook up but I couldn't shake his hand you know what I mean because he was just a but yeah he's a cunt but but he'd come down others come down four or five and and all my mates every day right so anyway I was shattered it was really difficult so now I'm walking out the gate right so this is the last bit see 30 screws coming I didn't recognise one screw all of a sudden there was one there six years earlier and I went to him wait governor he's not expecting it's a maximum security prison you're not expecting anyone to come out I'll never forget he went he couldn't believe it he went I said I'm going home and I did thank you for having me on the show how's life been since you've been out it's alright I'm not as fit as I was and I'm not as sharp and you know a bit bored but I don't do anything and I I don't have it with criminals how long have you been out now Russell?

3:08:28five streets in a couple of months time. What about the relationship with your dad and that? He died. Yeah, sorry to hear that. Yeah, what it was, the last letter I wrote to him, I said to him, listen, I wish you well. We will not meet again. He had words, I had words. And I bumped into Laurie Professor Taylor, who helped him in prison. And he said, I said, just tell him I've gone straight. I mean, I didn't have a job or nothing. I ain't got a job. now but i said i've gone straight i don't do anything just let him know that he said i turned to get in touch with her i said no i said we had our chance all through my life to get on but all through my life larry we we are we in my 20s i got on like a house on fire but he would always say like you just you don't know when to stop you just want to take everything on you're gonna slaughter your mum she cannot be out of cope with this this is before the robberies I said to him, I can't live my life through my mum or you, Dad.

3:09:31I said, your life had done me nothing to me. I said, you know, who are you to tell me I should learn through you? That was the problem. And once I said I want to speak to him again, I didn't. He died skint in a fucking caravan. And had I known that, I thought he was doing well. I would have gone and seen him. That's different because he was struggling. He's my dad and I love him. I would have gone and seen him. But I thought he had a chunk of dough and this, that and the other. I'm not wanting people if we fall out that's kind of it you know and we I said we've had 25 years Sir Laura so we've had 25 years to be pals and we ain't so I'm not going to start being his pal now now you know I'm an old bastard and he's double old but certainly I wish him well How hard is that Russell when you see somebody involved in a life of crime robberies on the run making films very high profile famous and then seeing him die alone does that what are you that that could be you no no no that doesn't bother me because i believe in heaven i believe in an afterlife so it don't bother me death i've never been frightened of death why do you think that is because when i was six i thought there was an afterlife that's the bottom line i remember thinking there's a god and there's an afterlife so i don't care about death i don't care about death that doesn't mean to say you can't frighten me you couldn't frighten me with death so i was disappointed when i never run the first time it done me because i thought you must have bottled it but it wasn't it's a truly essential nervous system you've got to keep that sharp by keeping balance early nights when i was on the run for the picasso i was a machine no girlfriend no contact with anyone but i altered it the last year when i when i come back i altered it for the last year and it made a difference but two years away never come close to me apart from when i made the mistake in leeds what i've noticed through your story as well with the escapes in prisons, there's always, when this came on top, you've always been drunk.

3:11:24Exactly right. I haven't got an alcohol problem, it's like... Your bearings are all over the place, you're not as sharp as you should be, especially on a trot. Put it this way, you wouldn't do a, you wouldn't, this is what I say if you're on the run, you wouldn't do a marathon or go in a boxing ring drunk. So if you're on the run, don't get drunk even one night. because that night is when the police might arrive. Yeah, the coppers only need to get lucky once. Like you says, Ella, you've been lucky a few times. I've been lucky many times. As soon as they're lucky, you're done. You're doing a 15 stretch or a 16 stretch.

3:11:59What about your mum, Russell? My mum, she worried over the COVID and all that. So I see my mum, you know, quite a lot. She's still alive and well. Yeah, she's very fit, my mum. Her dad lived to 100. her grandmother lived to 99, and I knew the grandmother was a little boy. So my nan, big woman, she lived to, my dad's nan lived to about 80, so I'm bigger. I thought my dad might live to late 80s. He was still running, shadow boxing, lived in a caravan. If I'd known he was skinned and on his own and cold, I would have gone and seen him. Has there ever been temptation that you've been out walking past a bank or seeing something?

3:12:40You think, hmm? I'll tell you what it is, right? I, you know you can go and get one score, but that's what got me in trouble the second time. Is it like an addiction? No, it's not an addiction, but you know it's easy. It's like anyone who does anything, shoplifting or anything. But I got in trouble because I give it one more go, and I lost blood. I lost a big scar there, right? And had I, when I then get, I could have got the IPP. if I don't bump into the geezer the scarce geezer and he tells me about the three judges I'm probably I'm probably just finishing off now I wouldn't have been out in the last five years because they would have said you've got to do seven but because I won't go workshops because I argue in my case and I've smashed screws and all that apart from that one screw I kicked I've hit a screw who's the maddest bastard you've been in prison with?

3:13:36it'd be well the three people Roy Shaw because he said to me the nurses come for him the male nurse said Roy he was in Broadmoor please you turn it in tonight we're going to kill you or they're going to kill you and he said I knew that was it you reach your limit with Finn Bronson never reached the limit I've heard him from the block you could say it's him but John Iannacci who I used to play chess with. It was on that program about 4th Sun. He's my pal. And I always knew, you know, he's probably the most... Everyone was very careful of this guy. He's 20 stone, he's a boxer, but he's handy in all sorts of ways.

3:14:28And he beat me 17, 16 in a game of chess over years. He, when I'm in the hospital, two days before I go home, screws come he said john's gone into one i'll see a screw out the window what's he doing that's not a place they stand but the whole prison had been called off john smashed cut the screw battered them three screws burnt the kitchen down smashed other things up and they waited till there was 100 men that's what i consoled me that's what i see on tv they waited to 100 men and when he come on he lost his training shoe put it back on got one punching on the shield and they'd done it and they would have more or less killed him.

3:15:11But that's only one incident. So maybe Roy Shaw, maybe Bronson. I never met Bronson. I heard him shout at him. John Arnatt is very brave. And Billy Gentry, and you don't know nothing about Billy Gentry, right? But Billy Gentry done like 18 out of 18. They'd done the first thingy-pop cell for him. And Fraser, they're the ones that I've met. And I... My dad had a rule, but he wouldn't go to them limits. He wouldn't go to those excesses. These people have to shit up, take beatings. You want to be a prison tough guy, you've got to be able to take a strip cell, block for years, and a beating. Those five people can take you, and I admire them people.

3:15:54I was always stopped before that point. You don't want to go down that road. they can kill you or fuck your mind up but block you i know swear you put me in a block for two years i laugh at you don't get me i don't care about any i don't need nothing i don't need a playstation when i was away when it was slot buckets and all that nothing now you've got tv toilet stations shower shower and a phone so there's nothing to really create about for me but someone like poor Charlie, he, it's all the profession of violence. If you're a robber, you understand how to rob. Maybe some of the guards I've done, they would have beat me in a fight.

3:16:41I don't know. They didn't fucking know how to stop me in certain situations. I can't explain it. You know when to pants or whatever. A screw knows his job. A dormant knows his job. And ambulance people know their job. It's all, you know, they sometimes have problems with people. So it's all different types of case fighting OZ's job, a boxer OZ's job, a knife man, a gun man. They're all got different... They're all wired a different way. I'm wired to escape and rob. That's it. That's what I know. And from a kid, and gamble. I don't gamble now, but I had gambling in my spirit. And I know how to take a chance and a risk.

3:17:19And my only advice to people, if you're young, and don't let it escalate. My dad started off with an eight. He was a no one. When he went 23, he'd come 26. And if you can get abroad, get abroad, but it's very difficult. But the end line for a wanted man, Jesse James, it's a bullet in the head or a bullet in the back. All these people, if you push the limits, if Bronson had been a robber, Bronson gets ironed out. But he's not a robber. He's a man of violence in prison. he understands to an extreme so he's probably the bravest man in that sense he's an astonishing man and they'll kill him what do you think Russell will look back in your life I know someone from the Angels she's a really good friend of mine she says I'll probably tell her about this program I might not she says to me if you go back 20 years what would you do I'll say I'd do it all again I'd do it all again because the people I met I can't tell you like the people I met.

3:18:21Oh, this is the other thing. So Kwame says to me, had you got the 13, or had you got out a year earlier, would you have gone straight to the hospital with that? I said, no. It was only because I got the bit of wax from being in the cell, and it was a fruit. If I get a year less, I'll probably die two years later. Do you see what I'm saying? Because I wouldn't have gone to the hospital. I wouldn't have trapped the nerve. So, but getting back to your question, as I say to someone, no, I wouldn't change it, because I met people, like he's called Rob Riley, who's my friend from Doncaster, Bambi, Hampstead, people who was funny, Richard Delaney, people who were funny, Leggy Parnell, who's the rest, who's choking me to death.

3:19:01These people, they're your family, because you're living with them every day. That's what prison's about. It's the wing you're on. And I was blessed by being with people who were funny and kind of rare and will stand up to screws. And I was around people like that. And if I'm rich, it's the people I met in jail and the people on the trot who helped me. And them people, obviously my mum has gone through hell for me. But what I'm trying to say, you know your family. My people I met in jail and on the run, I give them 10 out of 10. I'm blessed to have met them people and I thank God for that. I really do.

3:19:39And I say that humbly. It was a great honour to meet them people. So I'm not going to put back the clock and say, don't do that, do that. Do it all again. but I wouldn't want to see someone else do it all because I could have got killed where do you go forward for the future what's your plans I haven't really got a plan just take it day by day try and stay out of prison I say the probation I said to her, I ain't robbed now, where have I I don't get tempted by anything she ain't stupid, she said if you're going to do something you're going to do it they sometimes say to her she said no, no, no, if he's going to do something How are you going to stop him?

3:20:15He ain't going to stop me. But what a liberty it would be if I went back on the pavement. Because one, they'd life me off. And two, it'd have to be, I think the Jack Mezzurine film, I said, out or dead. What I'm going to do, go get a life 10. They don't want to let me out on 10. I'll do a 20. I'm in my late 50s now. I'm an old codger. But I'm still a bit lively. But I can't run on my legs. I'm not as lively as I was. and my trick was being able to get away quick and if it went wrong, run. You know, I've had chases. I don't get nowhere near me because I have a route and I'm gone. And, you know, I don't use motorbikes and all that game.

3:21:01I don't work with firms, but I did on that one occasion and lucky for me. So to go again would be not right and it would be... That's what I say, though. Well, you might not get caught. It's like the marble. It's like the marble. You might not, but what I'm trying to say, I might not get caught. But what I'm trying to say is, if I did, it would be like, I've had my last chance. You know, along the way, maybe I could have got killed. But that was professional. They never killed me. But my dad was worried they would. Oh, by the way, the flying squad weren't allowed. When I got down in Southampton, they never had guns.

3:21:38Because the coser there said, no you people are dangerous it's just something like your reputation procedure you're not having guns here and they've done it themselves in southampton if it had been the flying squad i don't think they'd shot me but if i did the wrong move they would have done because you get one chance of them if you go for your gun when it's on you they shoot you and i can tell you stories like terrible stories about people being shot dead so i know all these stories i'm who uh Gary Wilson was nicked with the keys to come out. He went like that. They shot him dead. So Easterbrook, he's arguably very brave.

3:22:14He come out as a 56-year-old man with his gun and shot him. He said they bottled it. The bullets were missing, but they shot his finger off. So would I go to them levels? You can't say you would, because most people, when they get surrounded, they go like that. But Dillinger wouldn't. Mezzurine wouldn't. Jesse James wouldn't, not that he'd gone done that way, he'd gone done in the back. All them people, but they all end up getting caught and some of them get killed, but that's the history of crime in the world. You don't really win in the end, I don't think. Not robbers. They're wild robbers. They've got something wild in them.

3:22:56They're different to drug dealers. They've got a different mind. I like robbers. They're my favourites. you know I love the stories about Jesse James like Miserene Dininger but they're killers you know if it comes on they're killed but at least they'll have a shootout with armed police for anybody watching Ross who's maybe wanting to get involved in a life of crime or maybe wanting to start robbing what advice would you have for them if you get caught once don't go again I wouldn't say I'm not one of them people who says to people don't do so I'm not into that reform thing if it's in your spirit to rob or shoplift burgle fight, whatever it is.

3:23:34But if you're on the run, you cannot think of family. You have to think yourself. You don't go to jail and say, I've got to be good for my family. You should be good for yourself. You get one life, make the most of it. And I've met people in jail, the people I respect, they turn their life around. But on a three stretch, it's hard. You go in, you come out, you go in, you come out. On a 15, I would say if you get a 15 or a 10, you've got, if you're away for five or six years you can turn your life around you can learn things but i learned quite a lot i've got a degree can't get a job of it but what i'm saying is you you get a chance to turn your life around on a long stretch but don't go again you don't do what i've done is what i would say if you want to rob good luck to you i wish you well but don't go the second time because you could gentry done three big arm robbery things he'd done an 18 a 10 and a 6 all behind the door I would be another one of them if I went again so I can't go again because I've been given a chance so I won't Rob ever again that's it finished

3:24:44nice to meet you so listen for coming on today it's been an absolute mad story it's a rollercoaster but I thoroughly enjoyed it I genuinely wish you all the best for the future I know we're in talks with things in the pipeline in the future so hopefully we can get things sorted for you we'll not touch on them now but listen that's just your life of fucking prisons no doubt there's so much more information you can give I've got twice as well I'd better drive you mad I don't want to bore you to death I'm sorry I took up so much of your time listen man I've enjoyed it I know the listeners will love this so listen thanks for coming on today and telling us I wish you all the best and take care brother thank you very much